Podcast Summary: "Pagans, Neo-Pagans, Wiccans – Let’s Sort It Out!" Stuff You Should Know
Release Date: June 3, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

Introduction

In the episode titled "Pagans, Neo-Pagans, Wiccans – Let’s Sort It Out!", hosts Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant delve into the intricate world of paganism, exploring its ancient roots, the rise and suppression by Christianity, and its modern resurgence. The conversation aims to demystify various pagan traditions, highlighting their beliefs, practices, and evolution over time.

Ancient Paganism: Beliefs and Practices

Josh and Chuck begin by defining paganism as a collection of nature-based religions predating the Abrahamic faiths—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Josh Clark [01:29]:
"Paganism is not a religion. It's a set of typically nature-based religions that predated the Abrahamic religions."

They discuss key elements of ancient paganism:

• Animism: The belief that every object, living or non-living, possesses a spirit.

  Chuck Bryant [07:05]:
  "Animism is the belief that every object on the planet has a spirit. Rivers, trees, everything can animate or inanimate, influencing their behavior towards humans."

• Shamanism: Combining animism with a mediator (shaman) who communicates with spirits, often entering trance states through rituals involving singing, dancing, or substances.

• Ancestor Worship: Reverence for ancestors, stemming from burial practices suggesting belief in an afterlife where ancestors can aid the living.

• Polytheism: Worship of multiple gods, each with distinct roles and attributes.

  Josh Clark [10:37]:
  "There is not one single God. Even if there's a head of the gods, like Zeus or Odin, there are plenty of other gods who are gods in and of themselves."

The Rise of Christianity and Suppression of Paganism

The conversation transitions to how Christianity's ascendancy in the Roman Empire led to the suppression and demonization of pagan practices.

Chuck Bryant [05:07]:
"Christianity leapt forward as a sophisticated thing, using the same playbook against pagans that pagans once used against Christians."

Key points include:

• Terminology: The term "pagan" originally meant "country dweller" in Latin and became an insult as Christianity centralized power.

• Legal Suppression: Constantine's son enacted laws banning pagan practices publicly, with Theodosius later declaring Christianity the state religion and outlawing paganism entirely.

  Josh Clark [20:05]:
  "Christianity started to stamp out pagan religions all over the Roman Empire through laws and demonizing them."

• Demonization Tactics: Pagan gods were equated with Satan, transforming polytheistic beliefs into associations with evil.

  Chuck Bryant [21:30]:
  "They took pagan gods like Cernunnos and transformed their image into the Christian devil, demonizing entire religions."

Modern Paganism: Revival and Transformation

Josh and Chuck explore the revival of paganism in modern times, emphasizing that contemporary paganism is distinct from its ancient origins due to the lack of continuous tradition and the synthesis of various influences.

Josh Clark [06:03]:
"Modern paganism isn't a direct revival of ancient practices but a new synthesis inspired by historical elements."

Key aspects include:

• Renaissance Influence: Rediscovery of Greek and Roman philosophies during the Renaissance sparked renewed interest in polytheistic beliefs.

• The Enlightenment: Rational thinking led some to seek purpose in nature, fostering an intellectual interest in paganism.

• 20th Century Movements:

  • Gerald Gardner and Wicca: Gardner introduced Wicca in the 1930s, presenting it as a modern witchcraft practice with its own rituals and Book of Shadows.

    Chuck Bryant [43:41]:
    "Gerald Gardner was a British customs official who founded Wicca, claiming initiation by an ancient coven."

  • Dianic Wicca: A woman-centered branch focused on feminist ideals and celebrating female life cycles.

    Josh Clark [43:06]:
    "Dianic Wicca is more woman-centered, created to celebrate and honor biological cycles, excluding males to focus on women's roles."

  • Heathenry: An umbrella term for modern practices honoring Norse and Germanic deities, exemplified by movements like Ásatrú and Vanatrú.

Misconceptions and Historical Accuracy

The hosts address common misconceptions perpetuated by sources like the History Channel, emphasizing the importance of scholarly research over sensationalist portrayals.

Chuck Bryant [28:35]:
"The History Channel presents unsupported theories as facts, causing widespread misconceptions about paganism."

They critique figures like James Frazer and Margaret Murray, whose theories have been debunked but still influence modern pagan narratives.

• James Frazer: His work, The Golden Bough, suggested all religions stem from a common myth of a sacrificed king, a theory now considered overly simplistic.

  Josh Clark [30:10]:
  "Frazer's Golden Bough, despite its exhaustive research, is not entirely accurate but became a handbook for modern pagan movements."

• Margaret Murray: Proposed that European witches traced their lineage to ancient fertility cults, a claim now debunked.

  Chuck Bryant [32:09]:
  "Margaret Murray argued that modern witches descended from ancient fertility cults, but this has been thoroughly debunked."

Contemporary Pagan Movements and Culture

Modern paganism encompasses a diverse range of practices and beliefs, often intersecting with popular culture and music.

• Black Metal Scene: In Norway, elements of paganism influenced the black metal music scene, leading to radical acts like church burnings and extreme expressions of Norse paganism.

  Josh Clark [47:36]:
  "The Norwegian black metal scene turned towards heathenry, leading to extreme acts like burning medieval churches, which is not representative of paganism as a whole."

• Heathenry Subgroups:

  • Ásatrú: Focuses on the Aesir gods, emphasizing honor and valor.
  • Vanatrú: Centers on the Vanir gods, highlighting prosperity and nature.

  Chuck Bryant [46:18]:
  "Asatru worships the Aesir gods like Odin and Thor, while Vanatrú is concerned with Vanir gods, focusing on prosperity and nature."

• Druidry: A modern belief system celebrating nature as the divine, founded by Ross Nichols.

  Josh Clark [50:32]:
  "Modern Druidry, started by Ross Nichols, views nature itself as the divine and emphasizes it as a philosophy rather than a religion."

Legal Recognition and Modern Challenges

The episode touches on the legal recognition of pagan practices and ongoing challenges faced by modern pagans.

• Supreme Court Case: In 1986, Detmer v. Landen recognized Wicca as a true religion in the United States, protecting the use of ritual objects under the First Amendment.

  Josh Clark [44:35]:
  "Wicca was first recognized as a true religion in 1986 when the Supreme Court ruled in Detmer v. Landen, protecting the use of ritual objects."

• Modern Misrepresentations: Contemporary media often misrepresents paganism, leading to stereotypes and misunderstandings.

Conclusion

Josh and Chuck conclude by encouraging listeners to explore paganism with an open mind, emphasizing the diversity and adaptability of modern pagan practices. They highlight the importance of distinguishing between historical facts and popular misconceptions, urging critical engagement with sources and respect for the traditions being discussed.

Notable Quotes

• Josh Clark [01:29]:
  "Paganism is not a religion. It's a set of typically nature-based religions that predated the Abrahamic religions."

• Chuck Bryant [07:05]:
  "Animism is the belief that every object on the planet has a spirit. Rivers, trees, everything can animate or inanimate, influencing their behavior towards humans."

• Josh Clark [10:37]:
  "There is not one single God. Even if there's a head of the gods, like Zeus or Odin, there are plenty of other gods who are gods in and of themselves."

• Chuck Bryant [21:30]:
  "They took pagan gods like Cernunnos and transformed their image into the Christian devil, demonizing entire religions."

• Josh Clark [20:05]:
  "Christianity started to stamp out pagan religions all over the Roman Empire through laws and demonizing them."

• Chuck Bryant [28:35]:
  "The History Channel presents unsupported theories as facts, causing widespread misconceptions about paganism."

• Josh Clark [30:10]:
  "Frazer's Golden Bough, despite its exhaustive research, is not entirely accurate but became a handbook for modern pagan movements."

• Chuck Bryant [46:18]:
  "Asatru worships the Aesir gods like Odin and Thor, while Vanatrú is concerned with Vanir gods, focusing on prosperity and nature."

• Josh Clark [44:35]:
  "Wicca was first recognized as a true religion in 1986 when the Supreme Court ruled in Detmer v. Landen, protecting the use of ritual objects."

This comprehensive exploration provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of paganism's historical context, modern manifestations, and the challenges it faces today. Whether you're new to the topic or seeking to deepen your knowledge, Josh and Chuck offer valuable insights into the enduring legacy and evolving landscape of pagan beliefs.