Selects: BPD: The Worst Disorder or Not a Disorder at All?

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Stuff You Should Know
Episode: Selects: BPD: The Worst Disorder or Not a Disorder at All?
Host(s): Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Release Date: January 17, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)—its origins, diagnostic criteria, causes, misconceptions, stigma, and treatment. Hosts Josh and Chuck aim to put BPD in context as both a misunderstood and highly stigmatized mental health condition. They break down its complexity, share compassionate perspectives, and challenge listeners to rethink preconceived notions, while also highlighting the real difficulties faced by those with BPD and the people around them. The episode also explores the debate around whether BPD is a discrete disorder or a cluster of overlapping symptoms.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Talk About BPD?

• Addressing Mental Health Stigma: The hosts stress the importance of discussing lesser-understood and stigmatized diagnoses.
• Feedback from Listeners: Many reached out previously, thanking them for treating BPD with compassion.
• Notorious Lack of Empathy: BPD tends to garner less empathy, even among clinicians.

  “It’s also clear that it’s one that somehow seems to garner the least amount of empathy, not only among just people who...may or may not know much about it, but even clinicians and therapists.” — Chuck [04:20]

---

2. Defining BPD and Differentiating from Bipolar

• BPD is a "Cluster B" personality disorder, grouped with antisocial, narcissistic, and histrionic PDs.
• Often misunderstood as similar to bipolar due to surface similarities (emotional swings).
• Distinction: Bipolar is marked by episodic highs/lows with periods of stability; BPD’s emotional dysregulation is constant.

  “Those with bipolar may have a hair trigger kind of response during an episode. Whereas when you have borderline PD, you have a hair trigger response all of the time.” — Chuck [06:31]

---

3. Hallmarks of BPD

• Emotional dysregulation: Extreme, prolonged emotional reactions to minor triggers.
• Non-suicidal self-injury and very high suicide rates (50x general population).
• Deep sensitivity: "Like having third-degree burns on 90% of your body" (quoting Marsha Linehan). [08:18]

  “You’re lacking emotional skin and you feel agony at the slightest touch or movement.” — Marsha Linehan, via Chuck [08:18]

---

4. Origins and Controversies

• The term "borderline" originated in 1938 (Adolf Stern), meant as a label for patients “on the border” between psychosis and neurosis.
• Criticism of terminology: Does not reflect the reality of the disorder.
• BPD included in DSM-III in late 1970s after work by Otto Kernberg.
• Ongoing debate: Is BPD a standalone disorder or a cluster of symptoms? Categorical vs. dimensional diagnosis in DSM-5.

  “The problem with that…you are literally stigmatizing somebody when you give them that diagnosis.” — Josh [12:11]

---

5. Stigma and Diagnosis

• The diagnosis itself can be deeply stigmatizing—akin to labeling someone a sociopath.
• Professionals debate whether it should be a categorical diagnosis or exist along a spectrum.
• Diagnostic criteria: Meeting at least 5 out of 9 specific symptoms (chronic emptiness, unstable relationships, impulsivity, self-harm, anger, paranoia/dissociation, frantic avoidance of abandonment, emotional instability, unstable sense of self). [23:36-25:35]

---

6. Causes and Development

• Biosocial Model (Marsha Linehan): Both biological (brain/executive function) and environmental (usually childhood invalidation, neglect, or abuse).

• Parenting matters: Strong emphasis on validating children’s emotional experiences to prevent later issues.

  “You gotta validate your kids.…You gotta validate their emotions and validate their experiences and their feelings.” — Chuck [17:49]

• 80% of people with BPD have childhood trauma (emotional, sexual, or physical).

• There may be a genetic predisposition, but environment is often the trigger.

---

7. Personal Relationships: The Favorite Person (FP) Dynamic

• People with BPD may focus intently on a “favorite person,” which can be a partner, friend, or coworker.

• These relationships often become codependent, with the FP changing their own behavior to accommodate.

  “You generally end up feeling like you’re walking on eggshells. And it’s a codependent relationship that evolves.” — Josh [45:28]

• The FP can be idealized, then suddenly devalued (“splitting”). This cycle can repeat and is deeply distressing for both.

---

8. Internal Experiences and Black-and-White Thinking

• Splitting: Seeing people/events/self as all-good or all-bad, which is unstable and shifts rapidly.
• Self-image fluctuations: May frequently “try on” new personalities, values, or goals, sometimes feeling rootless or unsure of identity.

---

9. Treatments and Hope for Recovery

• Contrary to old beliefs, BPD is very treatable.

• Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT): Developed by Marsha Linehan, is gold standard—focused on radical acceptance, emotional regulation, behavioral changes, and validation.

  “The idea that it has a very high success rate of treatment is pretty encouraging.” — Josh [16:31]

• DBT involves individual work, group skills training (more classroom than therapy group), and therapist support teams.

• Other therapies include psychodynamic therapy—relating current issues back to childhood experiences.

• About half of treated patients no longer meet the criteria after 5–10 years. [50:11]

• Access to specialized therapists—especially for DBT—can be limited due to shortages.

---

10. Debates and Criticisms

• Some experts question whether BPD is just a cluster of symptoms best addressed by targeted interventions, which can also treat aspects of other diagnoses.

• Ongoing need for empathy and careful clinical handling—burnout among clinicians is noted.

  “That’s how hard it can be to treat people with BPD.” — Josh [54:13]

• Lack of specific pharmaceuticals for BPD, adding to the diagnostic debate.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Stigma:

  “It is an enormously heavy weight you put on somebody. When you say, I am a trained psychiatrist...and you have borderline personality disorder. Everybody step back, basically.” — Josh [12:11]

• On Diagnosis:

  “If you have a lot of unstable, intense relationships with people, that's just kind of the M.O. that is usually a big giveaway with BPD.” — Josh [25:10]

• On Parental Influence:

  “Boy, you gotta validate your kids…What you can’t do is just discount a kid’s feelings because that’s like telling them that their truth isn’t real and that’s damaging.” — Chuck [17:49]

• On Recovery:

  “If you have BPD or know someone that does, you can get better. And they have proven...that through treatments… it is absolutely something that someone can get ahold of in most cases.” — Chuck [15:55]

• On Self-Awareness and Treatment:

  “Even if people around you are telling you that is messed up or that you’re being hostile...to you, that’s normal, that’s natural.” — Josh [48:33]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:06] – Importance of mental health episodes and listener feedback
• [05:41] – Difference between BPD and bipolar disorder
• [08:18] – Marsha Linehan’s metaphor for BPD experience
• [10:01] – History and origin of the term “borderline”
• [12:11] – Stigma of diagnosis and categorical vs. dimensional debate
• [23:36] – Diagnostic criteria for BPD (9 symptoms, need 5 for diagnosis)
• [30:30] – Genetic and environmental causes; role of parenting
• [36:04] – Prevalence, gender bias, and black-and-white thinking (“splitting”)
• [43:45] – The “favorite person” (FP) dynamic in relationships
• [50:11] – Hope for recovery: stats on treatment success, DBT
• [54:05] – Clinician challenges and therapist support teams

---

Episode Tone and Style

• Approachable, conversational, and compassionate—Josh & Chuck use humor, pop culture references, and relatable analogies, without underplaying the seriousness of BPD.
• Balancing education and empathy: The hosts emphasize understanding and support, both for those experiencing BPD and those supporting them.

---

Takeaway

This episode offers a nuanced, clear-eyed view of BPD: its clinical realities, social challenges, and personal impact. The hosts encourage listeners to be mindful of both the struggles faced by people with BPD and the hope afforded by modern treatment. While acknowledging the stigma and clinical debates, they focus on the value of empathy, validation, and evidence-based care.

---

Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.

With no fees or minimums on checking accounts it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC hey everybody, it's time to take care of you. And who better to help you do that than the top voices in well being? On Audible, you can hear the latest from bestselling authors Brene Brown or Jay Shetty or chef Jamie Oliver or finance expert Rachel Rogers. Plus, find all the best parenting guides like Raising Good Humans. When you listen, you can imagine more for your mind and body. And right now you can kickstart your wellbeing journey with your first audiobook for free when you sign up for a 30 day trial at audible.com SYSK membership is $14.95 a month. After 30 days, cancel anytime. People keep asking about my 2026 res.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure, I've got the usual goals. Read more Hit the gym.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Learn how to crochet maybe. But this year there's a new one at the top of my list. Get comfy. And that's where Bombas comes in. The all new Bombas sport socks are engineered with sport specific comfort for running, golf, hiking, skiing, snowboarding and all sport. And this year, you know, I really want to get out and hike in the woods a little more. And these socks are perfect for it. They're cushioned where I need it most, sweat wicking, and loaded with other tech features to keep me comfy and locked in. So head over to bombas.com and use code SYSK for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com, code SYSKOUT hey good morning everyone.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is Chuck, here on a Saturday with a curated selection of one of my favorite episodes. This is BPD Colon, the Worst Disorder.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Or Not a Disorder at all. This is all about Borderline Personality Disorder and it's pretty fascinating stuff and I hope you guys enjoy it.

[Josh Clark]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartradio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and Chuck's here too. It's just the two of us. And that's cool cause this Is stuff you should know. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Jerry's got the week off and she said, press on, dudes.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Party on, dudes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Party on, Wayne.

[Josh Clark]

That was also from Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, wasn't it? Party on.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, was it?

[Josh Clark]

I think so. I can see George Carlin saying it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I'm probably wrong.

[Josh Clark]

I'm probably wrong. So, Chuck, we're talking today about something we've kind of touched on before, but when we touched on it, we were like, well, this is something that deserves its own episode, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, we're talking. This is another in our suite on mental health conditions, and, boy, we've got a lot of them, but we still got more to go.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, we do.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, and I think these are important shows. And every time we do these, I feel like we get good feedback on people who suffer from these conditions and say, thanks for either educating me and. Or getting the word out to people who may be a little. What's the word? Ignorant about some of this stuff.

[Josh Clark]

As Michael Jackson would have said, you're ignorant about this.

[Chuck Bryant]

What's that from?

[Josh Clark]

He just used that word a lot.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, really?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But regardless, that has nothing to do with anything. When you mentioned just now that people kind of wrote in or write in when we do episodes like this, when we did our emotional pain episode and we mentioned borderline personality disorder, a lot of people wrote in. Well, I don't want to say a lot, but some people wrote in and they said, you know, thank you for treating it compassionately. Because when most people talk about it, they talk about it like they despise it or they despise people with bpd. And the more you look into, the more you realize, like, wow, this is maybe one of the hardest mental illnesses that you can possibly have. And I think we kind of said that in the emotional pain episode. But if I didn't know it before, I definitely do now after doing this research.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And it's also clear that it's one that somehow seems to garner the least amount of empathy, not only among just people who, you know, may or may not know much about it, but even clinicians and therapists. That stuff you sent me, like, a lot of times try to avoid or severely limit the number of patients they have that they treat with bpd, which makes it even more sad because it is a really tough one. I guess we'll just define it kind of off the bat. And a lot of this episode will kind of be defining it in different ways because it's fairly complex, but it is what's known as a cluster B personality disorder, which is in the antisocial personality disorder category along with histrionic personality disorder and narcissistic personality. I'm just gonna start saying PD.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, PDs. It'll make it sound like you know what you're talking about.

[Chuck Bryant]

Even more narcissistic pd. But it seems like a lot of what it can be is sometimes a disorder of perception. And while there are very real things that can trigger people with bpd, a lot of times it's the way things are perceived incorrectly either about themselves or about others or others actions.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I saw a lot of people confuse borderline personality disorder with bipolar or at least think they're similar, I guess because they both are bees or something like that. But no, they're not similar. Bipolar has much more of a brain and central nervous system basis. Whereas while borderline personality disorder has a component of that, the executive function of the person in their prefrontal cortex either didn't develop in a fully normal way or it's not functioning up to snuff. I guess more than anything. And the thing that differentiates it from bipolar is it's an assignment of meaning. It's psychological as much if not more than it is physiological.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And also bipolar is characterized, and we did a good episode on that quite a while ago, but it's characterized by like these highs and lows and then in between those periods they can be relatively stable. Whereas with borderline personality disorder it's, it's sort of always there. This one thing you sent me had a really kind of really nailed it on the head at the end. Those with bipolar may have a hair trigger kind of response during an episode. Whereas when you have borderline pd, you have a hair trigger response all of the time. And I can't imagine how tough that must be.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So that kind of calls out one of the big hallmarks of bpd, which is it's emotional dysregulation.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Things that would affect other people a little bit, maybe not at all. Stuff that most people let roll off of their back.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Could set somebody with BPD off into a rage that could last days potentially. They also might use self harm, it's called non suicidal self injury, to kind of externalize the pain. Because the emotional dysregulation is so profound, they don't know what they're feeling. They just know they're feeling everything all at once. And it's kind of like standing in an ocean and a huge wave hits you and you're as profoundly enveloped by emotion at that moment as you are by a wave when it just completely knocks you off your feet and sweeps you away.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. There was another. And we'll talk about her in great detail. Her name is Marcia Linehan. Or is it Linehan?

[Josh Clark]

I'm going to go with Linehan.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. She, as we'll see, is someone who not only suffered from BPD, but kind of pioneered the treatment of BPD. But she said it's like having third degree burns on 90% of your body, metaphorically. So you're lacking emotional skin and you feel agony at the slightest touch or movement. And since you did mention self harm, non suicidal self harm, it Also people with BPD have a suicide rate of. Was it like 50 times higher than average in the population? Yeah. So this is no joke. This is a very hardcore disorder that bears more empathy and understanding.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. Let's go back to the beginning, shall we? Because borderline personality disorder is one of those terms that has taken on its own meaning in the general population, but if you stop and think about it, it doesn't really reveal much about what it's describing. It's just one of those.

[Chuck Bryant]

Not at all frustratingly so.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And that goes back to a jerk named Adolf Stern who really jerked it up back in 1938.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he was a psychoanalyst and he basically. I mean, if you didn't know what it was, and I didn't even fully know what it was, I always wondered what borderline meant. And it very simply meant. It means, this is Stern saying you're not quite on the psychotic level and you're not quite psychoneurotic. You're basically on the border between those conditions while encompassing a bit of each. So we're just gonna call it borderline.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And psychosis is what we would still consider psychosis, but psychoanalysis, psychoneurosis is what we call like anxiety, depression, those kinds of mental illnesses. So I guess Adolf Stern wasn't really that big of a jerk because he really kind of did combine them appropriately. It was Otto Kernberg who was the serious jerk in this. In this situation.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. So he was a psychoanalyst in the mid-1970s, so that's like 40 something years later. And he described it as an unstable personality and disorganized conception of the self. And this is just when it was sort of starting to become more and more kind of talked about. And officially, I think five years after that was in the DSM version three.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty quick for Something you just started to identify, and five years later, it makes it in the DSM because they don't churn those DSMs out like, you know, every few months. It takes years to put one together. So Kernberg seemed to have stumbled onto something that was worth looking at very, very, very quickly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And isn't there a sort of movement or belief now that it's. A lot of people think it's something that it's like a diagnosis you shouldn't even give. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, there's. We'll talk about that. I think we can kind of pepper it throughout, you know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

But, yes, there is a school of thought that basically says BPD is not a personality disorder. It's not even a mood disorder, although some people say it would better be characterized as a mood disorder. They say it's a cluster of symptoms that overlap with a bunch of different actual disorders. And that the problem with that, you say, who cares? You're identifying people, a group of people whose rate of suicide is 50 times the general population. That alone is worth, like, identifying and helping those people out. But what they're saying is, number one, BPD has gotten such a bad name in the general population that you are literally stigmatizing somebody when you give them that diagnosis.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

It is an enormously heavy weight you put on somebody. When you say, I am a trained psychiatrist. I know what I'm talking about. And you have borderline personality disorder. Everybody step back, basically.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, it's almost in line with saying someone is a sociopath. It's different things. But as far as, like, the stigma goes.

[Josh Clark]

Very much so, yeah, for sure. That's a great analogy, actually. So some people are like, okay, it's stigmatizing, but even more than that, just the science isn't necessarily there. Like, we were saying, it's symptoms rather than an actual disorder. And then apparently the working group for personality disorders for the DSM 5, that's the most recent one, they actually said, we're not sure that this should be a categorical disorder, which is the type that you either have it or you don't. They suggested it should be dimensional, which means that it exists on a spectrum.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

So you can have a little bit of bpd, a lot of bpd, or right in the middle or whatever. And that got rejected. And now. So it's a categorical diagnosis where if you don't have bpd, you don't have bpd. If you don't fit the criteria, if you do, you got bpd.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And we'll Talk about the criteria in a second. But we do want to sort of reintroduce Marcia Linehan, who, like I said, was a real pioneer for her work in the treatment and recognition of bpd. Very late in her life, revealed that she suffered from BPD after patients and friends encouraged her to come forward. And she said, basically, I'm going to do it. I'm not going to die a coward is what she said. But for the longest time was not out with that information. Was born in Oklahoma in, I guess the 50s. And in the 1960s in high school, was diagnosed with schizophrenia, drugged up, given electroshock, hospitalized, was practicing self harm of all kinds, and then had, it sounds like, not a moment of clarity, but a pretty profound religious experience.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The only thing missing was a visit from St. Michael, pretty much.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, she's Catholic. And after this religious experience she was able to. Which had a lot to do with self love, but after this she was able to still have these emotions that she had before, but managed it to the point where she wasn't practicing self harm. And did she come up with the term radical acceptance or did she just buy into that?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know if that was a descriptor of hers or not.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. I don't think she came up with that. But basically radical acceptance is like, hey, listen, this is how things are with me. This is how things are with the world. I accept this. And I'm not gonna compare this to what I think the reality should be or what other people think it should be.

[Josh Clark]

There's a huge but that follows that, though.

[Chuck Bryant]

But.

[Josh Clark]

But I am going to do what I can to change those things about myself.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

So that is the basis of a type of cognitive behavioral therapy that she came up with called dialectical behavioral therapy. And it's based in radical acceptance and the desire to examine and change how you interact with the world externally. And it's basically the gold standard for treating a borderline personality disorder right now.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And it seems like it really works. I saw that it was kind of the only proven treatment to reduce suicidal behavior, which is, you know, at the tail end of what a lot of people experience with bpd. And the good news, and we'll talk about treatment later, but the good news is if you have BPD or know someone that does, you can get better. And they have proven and shown time and time again now that through the treatments that we'll discuss later, it is absolutely something that someone can get ahold of in most cases.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Which is great.

[Josh Clark]

It is great. I mean, like, for as bad of a stigma as BPD has, the idea that, like, it has a very high success rate of treatment is pretty encouraging.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So Linehan's basis of, or her understanding or her definition of borderline personality Disorder is that it's biosocial that people who have BPD are either genetically or biologically predisposed to having bpd. But not everybody who has that predisposition is going to be triggered into developing bpd. It takes basically a biological substrate for bpd. Usually your prefrontal cortex hasn't developed in a certain way, and so your executive function isn't functioning like an executive should. That gets joined together with a trigger, usually mistreatment, whether it's abuse, neglect, invalidation by your parents as a kid. And you put those things together and very often it results in what you be diagnosed with later as bpd.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, man, one thing I really took away from this, and this is something that Emily and I, and most parents that I know are way into, is, boy, you gotta validate your kids.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's new. Which is crazy. But it's.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, you gotta validate their emotions and validate their experiences and their feelings. Even if it's something that you don't think is, like, has the most relevance or whatever, or even if the kid is wrong about something or emotionally wrong, you still have to validate that and then talk them through it. What you can't do is just discount a kid's feelings because that's like telling them that their truth isn't real and that's damaging.

[Josh Clark]

I know. And doing parenting right sounds like a waking nightmare to me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Doing what? Parenting right.

[Josh Clark]

Parenting correctly. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Nah, nah.

[Josh Clark]

I can't imagine the exhaustion along combined with the fear of just misstepping once or twice and then there you go, you screwed your kid up for life.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. What you gotta do is, in my experience is like, you can't beat yourself up too much because parenting fails. You can really go down a rabbit hole of your own depression if you screw up. And you can't do that because kids are resilient and you just gotta, like, you gotta prove to them that you can, like, pick yourself up and move on and do better, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I don't think Linehan's idea is that it just takes one or two missteps. It takes like a parent who is a genuinely bad parent. Very frequently they have BPD themselves. And that is a real challenge to parenting. Well, in and of itself. But you don't have to have had a parent with BPD to develop bpd, but typically it's a parent that is not at all meeting your needs, especially emotionally. And I say we take a break and we'll come back and talk about how you would be diagnosed with bpd. What do you think?

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's do it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Hey everybody. The new year is here. So you need to get back into an at home routine that you love and elevate your space with Wayfair.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. It's a new year. It's a new you. And you can update your place with all sorts of great things on Wayfair like bath and bedding. You can refresh your kids room to help get them on track for this new year. And there's storage. Everyone needs storage right now and Wayfair has storage for every space for your outdoor furniture, your bathroom. You want to organize your life? Go to Wayfair.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

That's right. What about some kitchen essentials for easy weeknight dinners? Or I don't know, do you work at home? You need a good study set up for college or high school. They got desks, they got office chairs and they got bookcases of course.

[Josh Clark]

So get organized, refreshed and back on track this new year. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair every style, every home.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures Now I'd.

Like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types. And it's designed to work as a complete skin skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of Melonleaf stem cell technology. Its melonleaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All that [e-mail].

[Josh Clark]

Okay Chuck, so we said that BPD's in the DSM 5. It's a personality disorder. And just to differentiate real quick, a mood disorder describes patterns in feelings. Like you have mood swings in that you know highs and lows and it's pretty reliable that you're going to have it one way or another. Personality disorder focuses more on how you relate to others. And that definitely makes sense to me that you would consider BPD a personality disorder then.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that seems to be a really key thing is that it really disturbs your relationships. So to be diagnosed, you fit at least five out of the following nine that we're gonna read for you. Chronic feelings of emptiness and that's emptiness.

[Josh Clark]

Feeling like isolated or lonely or hopeless. Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Emotional instability and reaction to day to day events. That's the thing we were talking about earlier. Like saying mountains out of molehills seems slightly reductive, but that's kind of a basic way to say it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Frantic efforts to avoid abandonment, whether or not they're real or imagined. Yeah, as we'll see, abandonment issues. And this very, very much includes emotional abandonment is a really big precursor. Unstable self image or sense of self. What else?

[Josh Clark]

Impulsive behavior is usually a big one. And you have to have impulsive behavior in at least two areas that are harming your day to day life. Like an eating disorder and gambling addiction or something like that.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Another one is this is Based on. And so this is where some psychiatrists would be like, see, this is not. This is a symptom that we're talking about here. But it's unstable and intense interpersonal relationships. Meaning, like you're really, really close to somebody for, you know, a couple of days and then they do something you don't like and they're the worst person in the world.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And it can happen very, very quickly with people with bpd. And if you stick around and stay in that person's life, you can find yourself walking on eggshells very quickly because you don't want them to turn on you all of a sudden. Right. So that's a huge one. If you have a lot of unstable, intense relationships with people, that's just kind of the M.O. that is usually a big giveaway with BPD.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

The last three recurrent suicidal or self harming behaviors. We've talked about that a little bit. Stress related paranoia or dissociative symptoms like feeling like the self or the world isn't real. It feels like that's probably at the far end of the spectrum or the most severe end. And then one we missed earlier was inappropriate and intense anger or difficulty controlling anger.

[Josh Clark]

I didn't miss it. That was purposeful. Okay. Wanted to end with that big one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. All right.

[Josh Clark]

Speak to it. Well, there's a lot of. I always hate saying those qualifiers. It's just so easy to say. But I think it perks people's ears up. Like, oh, this person doesn't know what they're talking about. So let me rephrase that. I have seen that there are schools of thought regarding borderline personality disorder, that it is a rage response to trauma.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

That that is your response to unresolved trauma. That's how you learn to deal with those feelings and those emotions is to rage at people. Because rage is as much a hallmark of BPD as fear of abandonment is.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And that's why some people are critical of including it as a categorical diagnosis in the DSM 5. They're saying you're pathologizing rage. No, you just need to teach people how to identify their emotions and how to express them in a more appropriate, less hostile manner. And then that's how you would treat somebody with BPD or not even with bpd. Somebody with a rage disorder. But some people think that that is what, what people are mistaking for bpd.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I gotcha. Okay, Interesting. You're gonna to be diagnosed, like I said, five of those nine. It'll probably be like you'll be talking to a psychologist or someone in an interview. You might fill out a questionnaire or something. They're gonna go interesting, click, click, click, click. Or they may speak to your family or something like that. It can be difficult to diagnose. And like you said, there's a lot of overlap between things like anxiety and depression and things like PTSD and eating disorders, a lot of comorbidities. So I get why people can have issues with this diagnosis rather than it's like a cluster of symptoms of other things. But I don't know. If you group that all together and call it its own thing, then I don't know. I'm not sure I see the harm in that.

[Josh Clark]

Again, I think it's the stigma. And then also it might be distracting from treating the other underlying stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Maybe because there also isn't. And we'll talk about pharmaceuticals, but there isn't a specific pharmaceutical for bpd.

[Josh Clark]

That's another clue that some people point to that it's not. We're mistaking it somehow. And I don't want to overstate. That school of thought is widely considered like an accepted diagnosis.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Borderline personality disorder is. So I don't want to make it seem like the cracks are in the facade. It's about a Crummel any day now. My point is people make some pretty good points about how well we understand it or how well we're defining it and we're possibly missing some component of it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And isn't that stuff debate usually? Or I guess it should be, and I hope it's couched in how to best treat people and help people.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Rather than just like poo pooing ideas.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. But I mean, again, if we come to this place where even if a BPD is the center of a giant Venn diagram of a bunch of different disorders and we're mistaking that center overlap of all of them as its own thing. If you zero in on that group and they have a 50 times higher rate of suicide than the general population, again, that is worth zeroing in on as its own thing. And like you said, dialectical behavior therapy is focused initially on individual sessions that are aimed to control that behavior. Suicidality.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. You did mention earlier, as far as causes go, that sometimes there is a genetic link, but it seems that it's not really the disorder that is like maybe passed from parent to child, but some of those traits. And maybe that's because it is sort of a cluster Sometimes you can, you know, you can have BPD and come from, like, a pretty good, you know, stable upbringing, but that seems to be the outlier. And it seems to be that, like, most people that end up suffering from this had a pretty lousy childhood.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So they were either neglected or just kind of saddled with emotionally unavailable parents who just weren't really there for them. Didn't go to their dance recital kind of thing. Never went a single one. Excessive control. It sounds very Freudian, but I saw one classic example is an absent father and a domineering mother. And it's like, how many times have you guys trotted that one out? But apparently it really does have a screwy effect on people as a kid. And then also, if your parents or parent had a mood disorder themselves or misused substances, that would probably have affected their parenting as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. This also made me think about, like, parenting of old versus parenting now. And parents can. There are still, of course, a huge range of bad parents these days. I'm not saying that everyone's doing it right now, but it definitely seems like things turned a corner and parents are trying a lot harder these days. And, like, sort of the old days of, like, oh, you know, kids raise themselves and you can ignore them and blah, blah, blah. And like, I'm sure that. I mean, I know that still happens, but it just seems like that happened a lot more back in the day. And maybe in the future, things like this will be less and less.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's the hope for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know that's sort of a basic, sort of an elementary way of looking at it, but I just feel like parents are more aware of stuff these days. And, like, you know, people of our generation and certainly the generations before that, it was even worse as far as parental involvement and parents who. Either one or the other, you know, fathers, a lot of times, you know, historically are the ones that were like, no, we're not gonna parent. Cause we're doing the work and we're gonna bring home the paycheck. And so, like, I had. I've talked about it before. I had a dad that wasn't very involved, but it wasn't like, the kind of thing where I ended up with BPD because of it, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

If that makes sense.

[Josh Clark]

You raise a question, though, in my mind, I wonder what percentage of boomer grandparents aren't allowed to see their grandchildren. I'll bet it's higher than you think.

[Chuck Bryant]

Are allowed to or not allowed to.

[Josh Clark]

Like, just don't have contact with their Grandkids.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Or it's very limited and supervised. And so actually though, a lot of those grandparents all of a sudden are the most doting. And it's kind of like, I know some parents are like, oh, okay, well this is great. Where was that when I was a kid?

[Josh Clark]

Right, sure, for sure. But also I think in some cases the more they dote, they're actually also undermining the parenting of their kids under their grandparents.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. And imagine it can be very painful for a parent who had an unattentive parent to now have that parent be a very intensive grandparent.

[Josh Clark]

If you have bpd, I would guess that would be a rage inducing trigger.

[Chuck Bryant]

I imagine it would be.

[Josh Clark]

So there are plenty of other ways that you could probably develop bpd. Another very classic one is any kind of abuse, emotional, sexual, physical abuse at the hands of your parent or a caregiver. And they say that about 80% of people with BPD experience some level of childhood trauma, whether it was emotional neglect or some sort of abuse. It's a huge factor, a huge risk factor in developing bpd. For sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, absolutely. And it seems to be exacerbated if you're a kid who is maybe you're just innately a little more unsure of yourself or a little more vulnerable as a person. And then that is reinforced with a parent who is not validating your experience and your emotion as a kid. So you're already starting back sort of behind the eight ball and then your parents are making it worse. And so that can definitely ease you toward that condition.

[Josh Clark]

Well, that's a chicken or the egg question though. Like were you like that, you know already and your parents is reinforcing it? Or did you get that kind of, did you learn to do that because of your parents behavior? It's like a. Not chicken or the egg, but parent or the disorder.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

You know, but we said earlier that there's also believed to be a biological component to it too, that it's not all psychological. And it does seem to have something to do with executive function in the brain. One of the big things that executive functioning does is it helps you control your emotions. Not just in accepting things and dealing with them and moving on, but also your outward display of emotions. If you don't have executive function, your emotional dysregulation is more likely to include explosions of anger, uncontrollable anger. And then one of the things, it's not just BPD that has that, there's plenty of other disorders that have it. But one of the key Traits of BPD is it can last a really long time, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Can we make a T shirt that has a chicken that says parent across the chicken's chest, and then next to it, an egg that says mental disorder?

[Josh Clark]

Love it.

[Chuck Bryant]

And just. That's the shirt. No explanation. Figure it out or don't.

[Josh Clark]

How about this, though? On the back of the shirt, Mork is coming out of the egg. All right. To really confuse people.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yep.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, wow.

[Chuck Bryant]

That just really changed things. I like it. Okay, so as far as the number of people who experience bpd, it's kind of a wide range, like all this stuff, because it's one of those disorders that is. A lot of people don't admit it or seek treatment, so it's really hard to nail it down. But Livia helped us out with this one, and she said 0.5% to 6%. And they find it about four times more in women. But they've also found other studies are like, no, it's the women who are brave enough to come forward and seek treatment. And it happens just as much in men.

[Josh Clark]

I also saw that that's an indictment of clinicians who basically have to figure out for themselves whether the person has BPD and that they're more likely to assign it to a woman than a man, a male patient.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, interesting.

[Josh Clark]

So regardless, it is very frequently diagnosed, more than you would think. It's one of the more common serious mental illnesses. Apparently, people receiving inpatient mental health treatment, one in five of those people are diagnosed with bpd. So it is very prevalent, at least in inside the clink. The mental clink?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, the mental clink. One other aspect is a very black and white thinking. You kind of talked before about splitting, which is really revering and idolizing somebody and then very quickly despising them. And this can happen very, very frequently and, like, several times throughout a day, even. Or it can be like just a switch that is permanent. Like someone you used to really like and idolize, all of a sudden, just no more. You despise them, and they're on the bad person list forever.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and that falls under the larger category of black and white thinking. It's not just applied to people. It's events, things, anything. A dandelion can be entirely evil or fully good. And because you see things in people and events as entirely one way or the other, you set people up for unrealistic expectations. If you're like, you're 100% pure and kind person, and I love you, that person is inevitably going to let you down in Some way, shape or form, because no one's 100% pure and kind. Similarly, no one's 100% evil. And most people that you would label evil as if you have BPD probably aren't evil at all. They just did something you really didn't like. But now to you, that person is evil. Not to be trusted. Not, you know, they did something wrong. At their core, they're evil. And that's another huge hallmark of BPD as well. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, even Darth Vader was once a young boy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Just trying to learn the ways of the force.

[Josh Clark]

But boy, did he get pale as he aged.

[Chuck Bryant]

He sure did. This can also, this splitting can happen with yourself. You may vacillate wildly from feeling like you're okay and that you feel good about yourself and you have a little bit of self confidence to really loathing yourself. And that's when things like self harm can come into play. Your sense of your own personality can really change your. You could very much switch, like kind of do these wild switches between your goals in life or how you want to present yourself to the world or your values and ethics and things like that. And I'm not really sure, but it kind of seems like almost like sort of auditioning yourself kind of over and over sometimes. Like, let me try this new me or whatever or auditioning or trying out a new thing that you think might help. Does that make sense?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, no, totally. It's also circumstantial too. They might act different ways to different people depending on what they think those people want from them. Or yes, to impress like a friend or a new person or something like that. They might adopt that person's hobbies and interests. But I saw it explained as people who have BPD and do that, that they don't understand where they end or the other person begins because they have no idea what they believe in. They just don't know. So they're kind of open for suggestions, basically.

[Chuck Bryant]

Interesting.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Should we take a break?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, geez. That came out of left field.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sorry.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. I think it's a good time to take a break and then we're going to come back and talk more about personal relationships.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Support for the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures Now I'd.

Like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skincare simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated by for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of Melon Leaf Stem cell technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All that available@meaningful beauty.com these days it.

Seems like AI agents are just about everywhere you turn, every field and every function. But without identity, you can't trust they'll serve your business instead of jeopardizing it. Fortunately, Okta helps you get identity right by securing your AI agents identities, giving you a single layer of control, a single standard of trust. So whether an AI agent supports a single user or your entire enterprise, with Okta you'll turn risk into opportunity. Secure every agent, Secure any agent. Okta secures AI.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we're back and talking about Borderline Personality Disorder. And one kind of hallmark with someone with BPD is what's called Like a favorite person or just a person in their life that they have not necessarily even chosen who they've hooked up with. It could be a spouse, it could be a partner, it could be a friend or co worker. Anyone that you really have latched onto as someone. Maybe the only person that you really, really trust with yourself.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I don't think you even trust that person. You just, that's the person you've come to find you can lean on the most, I think.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

But yeah, the fp. For those in the know, the favorite person is very frequently somebody who is willing to kind of go along with this, at least for a while. There's a ton of flattery and admiration and praise and all of your greatest points are pointed out all the time. But you're also in real danger of letting that person down and facing that wrath of rage or anger or hostility. And if you come back for more, you're going to find that you, as the favorite person might start altering your behavior to fit the person with BPD's behavior. So you might start considering them when you're making plans like, oh, we can't go out of town this weekend because this, our friend with BPD was going to, you know, wanted us to come out for their Sunday picnic or something like that. Right. Like you would be afraid to not go to their picnic. And you generally end up feeling like you're walking on eggshells. And it's a codependent relationship that evolves. The favorite person seems to be the person who's willing to take it the longest or the most and that it's not a permanent thing. Typically people get burned out on it and eventually abandon the person with bpd, which is again at the root of what they are fearful of. They're fearful of rejection or abandonment. The tragedy of the whole thing is that their behavior almost inevitably guarantees that they will be rejected or abandoned by the people around them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that sort of self fulfilling feedback loop. Yeah. I mean it's a big burden for an fp. And if you are a spouse or partner of someone and you are the fp, that's a lot to manage. And so a lot of empathy goes out to those people as well. When you're altering your own behaviors, like literally things like I saw people like, you know, I've had to step out of like really important meetings just to answer a text within 10 minutes because I knew that that would set them off. And just little things like that can really add up to someone's burden.

[Josh Clark]

One of the Other things that is difficult to deal with when you're an FP is that person wants you all to themself, they're.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, right.

[Josh Clark]

And very much by other people. So they will try to isolate you from your other friends and your family so that they have you all to themselves. Not just for time. I'm sure time is a big part of it. But also to cut down on any, I guess, rational explanation or rational points from those other people. Like, what are you doing? Why are you putting up with this? Isolating them would help cut down on that, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, you know, if you're an fp, there's always the sort of sad and scary possibility that there could be a split incident, that all of a sudden you go from being the FP to being the most despised person. I would imagine that's something that probably comes over time and is not like a quick thing. It can be, but it can be.

[Josh Clark]

All right, for sure. It can happen. It can turn on a dime.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wow.

[Josh Clark]

And the other problem with it as well, Chuck, is that the person with BPD almost invariably immediately regrets doing that.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And so they'll make every effort to try to win the person back, which probably feels pretty gross for the fp. Right. And they'll say things like, I'll never do that again. Like they know what they've just done is worth regretting, is worth feeling horrible about, because they've just been abandoned or rejected. They just did it to themselves. So now they're trying to fix it or mend it, but it's all just kind of built on, you know, shaky ground because it's going to happen again, because it's impossible for that person not to let the person with BPD down again.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, I get the impression that people with BPD generally don't have any illusions about themselves because it is such a struggle.

[Josh Clark]

Well, that is a big problem with not only getting treatment, but seeking treatment. Because when your brain is structured in a certain way and ever since you were a little kid, you've just responded a certain way to things. Even if people around you are telling you that is messed up or that you're being hostile or whatever, to you, that's normal, that's natural. So it's really, really hard to interrogate your own behavior, let alone change it, because it seems normal and natural to you. It's not that you need to change your behavior because you chased somebody away. It's that that person left you and now you need to go get them back. So even if you have people around you telling you it's going to take a lot of emphasis, repeated constant emphasis, that what you're doing right now is abnormal and harmful, and you need to go get help for this. Yeah, that's one of the curses of it. They can't see it. At least if they can see it. Most of the time, they can't.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, and this is. I mean, all the mental health disorders require a support system, but this one really seems to sort of be at the top of the list of needing a really solid, vast support system for treatment. Like we said, the good news is that treatment works. They used to think that personality disorders were untreatable and that you were just kind of stuck with it. They have found that about half the people who are treated, who seek treatment and are treated, no longer meet the criteria after five to ten years.

[Josh Clark]

That's amazing.

[Chuck Bryant]

It doesn't mean that they're, you know, they're perfect and awesome and fixed. It means they can still have some symptoms, but they have it under control enough to where they don't meet that five out of nine criteria. And that's what it's really sort of about, I think, is managing something that, like you said, that you might have had since you were like a baby to live a productive, you know, healthy life.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And that's kind of what you're gonna learn in dbt, which, again, is the gold standard for treating bpd, is that you're going to be taught these skills. How to deal with disappointment, with being let down, with somebody not responding to your text. You're going to learn a different set of skills on how to deal with that both internally and externally. And one of the things that kind of differentiates DBT from other kinds of behavioral therapy is that there's group sessions, but it's not a group session that, you know, you've seen in a movie. Like, my niece Mila was in a movie called no Exit, and it featured a couple of group sessions. I think you can still see that on Netflix.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think so.

[Josh Clark]

But it's not like that. It's more almost like a classroom instead. And then people get up and practice these skills in front of others and with others. But it's not like a group therapy session in the traditional sense. But that's a huge component of it, is group work.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And if it sounds a little bit like cognitive behavioral therapy, it is sort of based on that, in part because it's a real. And I get how it works. It seems like a real sort of rubber meets the Road practical ways of learning new behaviors rather than. And therapy is a huge part of it. But it's not just let's therapy and talk about your past until you're blue in the face. It's like, all right, we know what's going on and we think we know where it came from generally. Now let's really talk about putting this into daily practice, like literally doing things and having a checklist and putting stuff into practice, which I think is just. I mean, not only for dbt, but stuff like that is so. It so speaks to me as a good way forward when you have any kinds of problems, because it's just a practical thing. It's learning new behaviors.

[Josh Clark]

That's another criticism of BPD as its own disorder, that DBT can be used to treat all sorts of different symptoms of all sorts of different disorders. It just makes sense like that. Yeah, for sure. But there's also another type of therapy that supposedly works really well for DBT called psychodynamic therapy. And it is talking about what you went through as a child, so you're blue in the face. But it's more about relating to. Relating that to how you deal with people in your current life, people in situations. It's relating it back to it so that it's not just one big confusing blob. You understand your own behavior better as a result of interrogating what you went through as a kid. And I guess it smells a lot like it believes borderline is like a response to trauma, using anger rather than anything else.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, if you can sort of build out your emotional life map, I imagine that's a very helpful thing to do, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And then one other thing that really kind of underscores how difficult dealing with people with borderline personality disorder can be. One of the main components of dialectical behavioral therapy is what's called a therapist consultation team, which is basically a group of therapists working with patients with BPD having like a. Like a blow off steam session about them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And reminding one another like these are people suffering and we need to have empathy for them. That's how hard it can be to treat people with bpd.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And like I said at the beginning, there are therapists that will refuse treatment because all the reasons that we talked about, they say the national alliance on Mental Health basically says if you have BPD and you recognize that and you want to seek treatment, whether it's DBT or any other kind, you. Well, first of all, seek out someone that specializes in dbt. But if there's no one in your area that does that, then you have a right. And this goes with any sort of emotional or mental problems that anyone has. They're working for you. So you have the right to advocate for yourself and to find somebody who works for you and who will not stigmatize you. And really, it's okay to question them and make sure it's a good fit for you?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think people just. I don't know, I think part of the problems with a lot of these disorders is people can't be advocates for themselves and that might be part of their problem. So they're not going to advocate for themselves when receiving treatment, and they'll just take whatever they can get. And it's not all therapies are created equal and therapists are created equal.

[Josh Clark]

Definitely not. I think one of the problems with BPD is that they might over advocate for themselves. Oh, and like, chase a therapist off, basically.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

But the thing is, Chuck, is like you said, people take what they can get in part because there's a huge shortage of psychiatrists in particular in the United States. And people will just take whoever can get them in within a year or less. The waiting lists are crazy.

[Chuck Bryant]

It is crazy.

[Josh Clark]

Well, if you want to know more about bpd, there are a lot of articles and resources all over the Internet to help you. And since I said that, it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm gonna call this. Let's just call it listener mail. Hey, guys. One day I will write the email that I've been formulating in my mind for years, trying to put into words what the show has meant to me. I'm tearing up just writing that sentence which provides you with a hint of why that email hasn't been written yet. Wink, wink. In the meantime, I want to let you know that both of your names are listed on my big thanks to portion of my bachelor thesis. It's customary in my country to thank your college coach for their support during your graduation year and your thesis forward. I have felt it was only right to also thank the other people who supported me to the same extent as my coach. And this includes you guys. I don't feel the least bit dramatic when I say my thesis would not have been written if it wasn't for you guys keeping me sane. It's what you've done for me over the years. But this year, I really needed it more than ever. So thank you all. Caps, double exclamations. I've added a picture of my forward where your Names are mentioned. And since I'm Dutch, I'm afraid it won't make much sense to you. But I figured it might bring you some joy to see the bridge.

[Josh Clark]

There are some Rando Js scattered throughout those words.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, totally. And Chuck has a little null sign through it, that's why. Weird. I'm not sure what that means.

[Josh Clark]

It means watch your back.

[Chuck Bryant]

That means I don't count. And that is with much love and immense gratitude from Suzanne. Oh, I'm going to do my best here, Suzanne Cruisvik.

[Josh Clark]

Let's hear it again.

[Chuck Bryant]

Krysvilk Kreuzvik. I like the K R U Y S W I J K. You like the second one?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Thank you, Susan. I'm going to call her Suzanne. Thank you very much, Suzanne. That was very kind of you. Thank you for tearing up. I think you did just write that email, if you ask me, don't you, Chuck?

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm tearing up.

[Josh Clark]

If you want to be like Suzanne and let us know what we meant to you. We always love hearing that kind of thing. Or you can just write in and say anything you want. We're at stuff [e-mail] Stuff you should.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

[Chuck Bryant]

For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

These days, it seems like AI agents are just about everywhere you turn, every field and every function. But without identity, you can't trust they'll serve your business instead of jeopardizing it. Fortunately, Okta helps you get identity right by securing your AI agents identities, giving you a single layer of control, a single standard of trust. So whether an AI agent supports a single user or your entire enterprise, with Okta you'll turn risk into opportunity. Secure every agent, Secure any agent. Okta secures AI.

Sometimes all we want is more of the same. Like another round of golf played from a channel with 247 coverage. Another look at the garden and the deer as they pick their way through it. Another Taco Tuesday followed by a Whatever's in the Fridge Wednesday. And to get more of the same, all we need is a little help with adaptable care plans from qualified, compassionate caregivers matched to your family's needs. Home Instead can help you and your passions stay home no matter what's on your horizon. Visit home instead online for a better what's next?

Every Lenovo is built to let them move. Let them put a chicken on a skateboard, please. Let them scale, copy and change it off. Let them make a purple sky with raining soccer balls incoming. Let them launch their vision to the world. Let them make Powered by Intel Core Ultra processors, Lenovo gives creatives everything they need. Lenovo.com, let creatives create Lenovo.

[Chuck Bryant]

Lenovo. This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Guaranteed human.