Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know

Episode: Selects: How Conversion Therapy Doesn't Work
Date: November 8, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark & Charles W. “Chuck” Bryant
Podcast by: iHeartPodcasts

Overview

This episode of "Stuff You Should Know" critically examines the practice known as conversion therapy—the theory and efforts purporting to change an individual’s sexual orientation from gay (or LGBTQ) to straight. Josh and Chuck break down the historical roots, psychological and cultural context, methods, scientific responses, and the documented harms of conversion therapy. With a blend of humor, empathy, and a clear stance anchored in scientific consensus, they explain why conversion therapy doesn’t work and why it’s considered deeply harmful.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Definition and Background [05:00–06:12]

• What is Conversion Therapy?
  Conversion therapy, reparative therapy, “ex-gay therapy”—all are attempts to "cure" LGBTQ individuals and convert them to heterosexuality, often based on the unfounded premise that people are naturally straight unless something “goes wrong.”

  “It is an alleged psychological theory and practice based on the idea that all people are born heterosexual...that can be accidentally steered into homosexuality and therefore can be purposefully steered back.” —Josh Clark [06:07]

• Fundamentalist Adoption
  Popularized primarily by the Christian right, especially in the U.S., conversion therapy became integrated into broader culture wars around LGBTQ rights.

  “It was officially part of the 2016 Republican Party platform...by far the most anti-LGBTQ platform in the nation’s history.” —Chuck Bryant [06:48]

2. Historical Context [09:00–14:24]

• 19th-Century Origins
  The roots trace back to late 1800s psychological practices, like hypnosis and lobotomies, with the underlying idea that being gay is an illness to be cured.

  “In 1899...claimed to have turned a gay man straight after 45 hypnosis sessions and some other therapies. That’s sort of the first evidence...” —Chuck [09:48]

• Distorted “Medical” Approaches
  Methods included testicular transplantation, electroconvulsive therapy, aversion therapy using nausea-inducing drugs, and lobotomies.

  “They would give you a lobotomy for anything!” —Josh [12:21]

• Lasting Harm
  The internalized view that “something is wrong with you if you’re gay” leads to shame, guilt, and long-term psychological harm.

3. Medical & Scientific Consensus [15:17–16:10]

• Declassification as a Disorder
  In 1973, the American Psychological Association removed homosexuality from the list of mental disorders, marking a major turning point.

  “We’re no longer going to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder.” —Josh [15:17]

• Abandonment by Mainstream Psychology
  Science does not support change efforts; mainstream medicine and psychology condemned conversion therapy.

4. The “Scientific” Face: Joseph Nicolosi & Modern Ex-Gay Movement [20:18–32:13]

• Trademarked “Reparative Therapy”
  Joseph Nicolosi Sr., a psychologist, became the academic face, trademarking and systematizing “reparative therapy.” He argued environmental childhood traumas and certain family dynamics create “same-sex attraction” (SSA).

• So-Called Theories and Techniques
  Nicolosi’s steps included therapist disclosure of anti-gay beliefs, “client inquiry,” resolution of supposed trauma, and education about motivations for “homosexuality”—all designed to root out same-sex attraction.

• Pseudo-Scientific Jargon
  Nicolosi’s language mimics ethical psychological counseling but is founded on disproven and damaging premises.

  “Let’s figure out how to get the gay out of you.” —Josh [29:09]

• The Big Problem:

  “If somebody came to you and said, ‘I’m tired of being Black or white or Hispanic or straight, I can’t stand it,’...any therapist worth their salt would say, ‘Let’s focus on that so you can own your identity.’ Conversion therapy does the opposite.” —Josh [28:40]

• Real Harms to Minors
  While some adults voluntarily sought therapy, children and teens are often coerced by parents, raising major ethical concerns.

  “If you’re a minor and your parents are forcing this on you, that raises a whole other can of worms.” —Josh [10:58]

5. The “Religious” Face: Adoption by Evangelical Movements [33:28–37:12]

• In the late 20th century, as gay visibility increased, religious conservatives doubled down, painting homosexuality and feminism as societal threats.

  “They saw homosexuality and feminism...as signs of a decadent society that would eventually cause us to crumble and collapse.” —Josh [34:18]

• Religious doctrines emphasized rigid gender roles, scapegoating “passive fathers” and “domineering mothers” as supposed causes of being gay.

6. Conversion Therapy in Practice: Methods & Harm [41:04–51:59]

• Physical and Psychological Abuse
  Tactics have included forced aversion therapy, humiliation, isolation, carrying heavy burdens, fake funerals, “re-masculinization” exercises, public shaming, and psychological manipulation.

  Example stories:

  • A teen forced to wear a backpack with 40 pounds of rocks for 18 hours a day to “symbolize the burden of being gay.” [45:22]
  • A family staged a fake funeral for their son, pretending he’d died of AIDS to “scare him straight.” [45:36]
  • Robert Gilbraith Heath experimented with brain electrode stimulation, leading to severe harm. [44:31]

  “The whole idea is to break you down to nothing in the worst way possible and then build you back up again in the image that they want.” —Chuck [46:05]

• Less Overt, Still Harmful Tactics Others used “manliness” training (chopping wood, tailgating, learning to not cross one’s legs) to reinforce gender-normed behavior. [47:17]

• Documented Tragedy The “success” case of a boy subjected to behavioral modification at age 4 led to suicide at 30.

  “This child died by suicide at the age of 30. Like, that’s the end result of this road. That’s where it ends up.” —Chuck [50:59]

7. Scientific Studies: The Evidence [52:40–54:00, Notable Quote]

• APA 2009 Task Force Findings:
  Conversion therapy “can pose critical health risks”:
  • Depression, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, shame, self-hatred, hostility, dehumanization, betrayal, social withdrawal, substance abuse, stress, sexual dysfunction, loss of faith—and suicidality.
• Increased Suicide Risk:
  LGB teens are twice as likely to attempt suicide if rejected by parents; three times as likely if subjected to conversion therapy.

  “There is no science backing up the idea that you can change someone from homosexuality to heterosexuality. And... there is science backing up the idea that trying to do that causes damage.” —Josh [54:00]

8. Legal and Political Landscape [55:34–66:47]

• High-Profile Failures of Conversion Therapy:
  Leaders of ex-gay organizations—such as John Paulk and Alan Chambers (Exodus International)—later acknowledged it doesn’t work, apologized, and came out themselves.

  “...the biggest organization...dedicated to conversion therapy said, it doesn’t work. We’re sorry, gay people, for all the damage we’ve done.” —Josh [62:06]

• Bans and Lawsuits

  • As of 2019, 18 states, D.C., and Puerto Rico ban it for minors—though bans typically apply only to licensed medical or mental health providers (not religious leaders).
  • Landmark civil fraud cases (e.g., the Jonah case in New Jersey) held practitioners accountable for fraudulent “treatments.”
  • New York City's more sweeping ban (covering adults) was repealed over concerns about Supreme Court challenges and religious freedom.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Objectivity

  “We typically try to be super objective. This one is very tough. We have science on our side too.” —Josh [41:17]

• On the Emotional Toll

  “Researching this one was like turning over a log and finding it like maggots writhing underneath...super sad.” —Josh [41:46]

• Challenging Pseudoscience

  “Directing them toward working on not being gay is not the answer. Go to regular therapy and learn to love that you’re gay and go find a church that accepts gay people.” —Josh [52:26]

• APA Final Word on Harms

  “Sexual orientation change efforts can pose critical health risks to lesbian, gay and bisexual people.” —Chuck [52:37]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Definition and Basic Premise: 05:00–06:12
• Historical Origins & Early Techniques: 09:00–14:24
• Declassification & Modern Context: 15:17–16:10
• Joseph Nicolosi & Practice Details: 20:18–32:13
• Religious Adoption & Gender Ideology: 33:28–37:12
• Methods in Practice & Survivor Testimony: 41:04–51:59
• Scientific Consensus on Harm: 52:40–54:00
• Legal Developments: 55:34–66:47

Final Thoughts

Josh and Chuck make it clear: conversion therapy is unsupported by science, proven to cause harm, and rejected by all mainstream medical and psychological associations. Despite political and religious roots, it remains dangerous, particularly to minors and vulnerable individuals.

“There is no science backing it up. Trying to do that causes damage.” —Josh [54:00]

They urge listeners to seek affirming, science-based support, and call out the practice for what it is: a damaging, fraudulent effort rooted in prejudice, not credible science.

Further Learning

• On Film: The episode references The Miseducation of Cameron Post (2018), a film dramatizing a teen’s experience with conversion therapy.
• APA 2009 Report: APA task force on appropriate therapeutic responses to sexual orientation
• History.com Article: "Gay Conversion Therapy's Disturbing 19th Century Origins" by Aaron Blakemore

[For sensitive topics like this, support and resources are available via organizations like The Trevor Project or local LGBTQ centers.]