Stuff You Should Know: Selects – How ESP Works (Oct 18, 2025)
Hosts: Josh Clark & Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant
Podcast: Stuff You Should Know
Episode: Selects: How ESP Works
Release Date: October 18, 2025
Episode Overview
In this classic “Selects” episode, Josh and Chuck dive into the weird and fascinating world of ESP—Extra-Sensory Perception. They discuss its many categories, the scientific attempts to study it, why people keep believing, and the ongoing skeptic vs. believer debate. Blending humor with a healthy skepticism, they explore the roots, experiments, and cultural fascination with ESP, from Zener cards to Princeton’s random number generators, psychic frauds, and government experiments.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Opening: New Studio Vibes & Introduction to ESP
- [02:21] The hosts excitedly announce they’re in their brand new studio, bantering about its coziness and exclusivity.
- They swiftly pivot to the day’s topic: Extra-Sensory Perception.
- Memorable moment: Joking about detecting “butt detection” and alarms for unauthorized studio use.
2. Personal Perspectives on ESP
- [04:20] Josh asks, “Do you believe in ESP?”
- Chuck: “No. Not at all.”
- Both agree humans are good at making guesses, but Chuck credits coincidence and selective memory.
- Josh shares his youthful interest:
“I spent so many years of my life believing in stuff like that…I wanted to go to Duke University to study at their parapsychology department.” [05:20]
3. Defining the Landscape: ESP & Psi
- [06:26] They outline how ESP is an umbrella term for all types of paranormal perception, a concept expanded to “psi” to reflect ideas beyond supernatural, rooted in the Greek letter for “psyche.”
- JB Rhine and his Duke lab are credited as foundational figures.
4. Categories of ESP
- [07:13–10:29] Chuck lists ESP types:
- Telepathy: Mind-to-mind thought reading.
- Clairvoyance: Perceiving distant events/objects.
- Precognition & Retrocognition: Seeing the future or the distant past (with discussion of retrocausality from quantum physics).
- Mediumship: Channeling spirits (e.g., Ms. Cleo).
- Psychometry: Reading information by touch (“the Dead Zone” reference).
- Telekinesis: Moving/manipulating objects with the mind (Uri Geller/spoon bending).
- “But there is no spoon.” (The Matrix reference)
5. ESP Research: The Early Days
- [11:02–13:40]
- Society for Psychical Research & William James: rooting out fraud, but occasionally stumped by unusual cases.
- Madame Blavatsky: exposed as a mediumistic fraud, but was pivotal in theosophy and the proliferation of séance culture.
- Memorable tangent: Comparison of cult documentaries (“The Source Family”) and quirky cult behaviors.
6. Theories on Who Has ESP
- [14:39]
- Some believe everyone has ESP potential; others, only gifted individuals; some think it’s very rare or situational.
- “The shinning.” (Simpsons reference)
- Josh admits he fits into none of the classic categories.
7. Attempting to Explain ESP Scientifically
- [18:19–22:59]
- Early theory: ESP as part of the electromagnetic spectrum (abandoned due to lack of brain evidence and inability to explain effects across space/time).
- Key experiment: MRI studies showed no special brain region activates during ESP attempts.
- Modern proposals: “Spillover” from alternate dimensions—a concept skeptics deride as unfalsifiable.
- Quote: “With the electromagnetic spectrum explanation…it makes even less sense.” [22:29]
8. Why Do People Still Believe? Coincidence and Anecdotes
- [23:06–26:14]
- Powerful anecdotal evidence: e.g., the 1898 novel “Futility” about the ship “Titan,” eerily similar to Titanic’s fate.
- Josh: “It is interesting, and it’s an amazing coincidence…” [25:22]
- However, once author’s expertise and cultural context are revealed, the supernatural explanation crumbles—emphasizing the role of selective memory.
9. JB Rhine’s Experiments & Zener Cards
- [26:16–33:42]
- Zener cards: “If you’ve seen Ghostbusters…” [26:46]
- Chuck tries an online Zener card test: “I only got six out of 25. At the end it just said ‘you are not a psychic.'” [27:27]
- Problems of “sensory leakage”—people subconsciously pick up cues from the card holder’s micro-expressions.
- Introduction of the Ganzfeld experiment: subjects isolated with red lighting and white noise (ping pong ball goggles!), to cut off sensory cues.
10. Machine Experiments: Can Thought Alter Randomness?
- [28:43–30:32]
- Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR): studies on whether human thought can affect random number generators.
- After millions of trials, a slight but statistically significant effect is claimed.
- “The weird thing is…there is a slight, very slight, but measurable effect that human thought has on a random number generator.” [29:57]
11. Skeptical Reviews & The Issue of Fraud
- [31:12–35:49]
- Early Zener card experiments criticized for flaws (translucent cards, inadvertent cues).
- Sensory leakage addressed, but more rigorous protocols always see effect sizes drop.
- Rhine, though a believer, is separate from outright fraud; he did correct mistakes when pointed out (“He was daring enough to stake his entire career on a field of study that will get anybody mocked...”). [34:12]
- Notable moment: The “Levy Affair” involving tampering with equipment and data correction.
12. Skeptical Arguments: Statistics, Coincidence & the Limits of Memory
- [38:49–42:13]
- Skeptics assert “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
- Chuck’s landline “phone will ring” experience—likely explained by unnoticed mechanical noises, not ESP.
- Josh: “Had I been a goat at a petting zoo and I went over and talked to the cow and the cow was writing the email about recycling bins…maybe.” [40:43]
13. Hyperobservant People, Subconscious Cues, and the Science
- [44:01–46:18]
- People thought to have ESP may simply be highly observant, especially of micro-expressions and environmental details.
- Parapsychologists acknowledge most ESP-like experiences can be explained this way, but leave room for further research, especially for unexplained outliers.
14. Modern Laboratory Studies: Darrell Bem’s Experiments
- [46:56–53:57]
- Darrell Bem’s peer-reviewed experiments at Cornell:
- Erotic images and precognition: Students selected which of two “curtains” would reveal erotic pictures, and results were >50% (53.1%)—above chance.
- Word recall experiment: Participants remembered words more often if they practiced them after the memory test (suggesting retrocausality).
- Note: Bem’s findings were heavily criticized and not independently reproducible, but the effect sizes are comparable to those in accepted health research.
- Quote: “That is about the same as…the link between calcium intake and bone mass, the link between secondhand smoke and lung cancer.” [50:15]
- Darrell Bem’s peer-reviewed experiments at Cornell:
15. Fraudulent Psychics vs. Scientific Parapsychologists
- [53:57–56:09]
- Distinguishing between showmen (e.g., John Edward) who use “cold reading” versus researchers.
- James Randi’s famous $1 million challenge (“no one stepped up to do that”), criticized for mockery rather than scientific skepticism.
- Josh: “To me, the presence of mockery indicates the absence of objectivity…It’s belief against belief.” [55:33]
16. Government Interest: ESP & Remote Viewing
- [56:39–57:26]
- The CIA’s now-declassified remote viewing experiments—subject of the book “The Men Who Stare at Goats.”
- Nightline segment with Robert Gates and “softball questions” about government-funded ESP research.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- Josh: “It’s not so much that I believe in ESP, it’s more that I refuse to just utterly disbelieve in the possibility of it.” [05:41]
- Chuck: “I think it’s just the nature of coincidence is going to happen, because so many things happen every day…” [04:48]
- Josh: “But the reason why people still believe in this stuff is because of either hearing a story about their friend who said, ‘Listen to this crazy thing happen’ or experiencing it themselves in some way…” [23:06]
- Josh: “When a machine is involved that there is no telepathy…there would only be clairvoyance.” [28:31]
- Chuck: “Did you see the Source Family, by the way, that documentary?…it was pretty great. Oh, yeah, yeah, they’re all fine. They’re all just a bunch of hippies still.” [13:05]
- Josh on James Randi: “To me, the presence of mockery indicates the absence of objectivity…” [55:33]
- Josh: “If you can get some funding for it, who cares? That’s my motto.” [56:28]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 02:21 — Show intro, new studio banter, ESP introduction
- 04:20 — Hosts discuss personal beliefs about ESP
- 07:13 — Categories of ESP explained
- 11:02 — Early research and fraud detection in psychical research
- 14:39 — Who might have ESP, possible categories of “giftedness”
- 18:19 — ESP as electromagnetic signal: modern neuroscience perspective
- 23:06 — Anecdotal “predictions” and the nature of coincidence
- 26:16 — JB Rhine’s Zener card experiments and issues of “sensory leakage”
- 28:43 — PEAR lab and mind influencing random number generators
- 31:12 — Zener card flaws and correcting for bias
- 38:49 — Skeptics’ arguments: statistics, coincidence, and memory bias
- 42:13 — Subconscious cues and hyperobservant people (“super intuitive” explanation)
- 46:56 — Darrell Bem’s controversial experiments and issues with reproducibility
- 53:57 — Distinct difference between fraudulent psychics and actual research
- 56:39 — CIA/remote viewing programs and Nightline segment
Conclusion / Tone
With characteristic humor and skepticism, Josh and Chuck skillfully balance open-mindedness with scientific scrutiny, emphasizing that while much of ESP can be explained by observation, memory, and probability, science remains open to new evidence—if it’s robust.
If you want more about ESP, start with “esp” at howstuffworks.com.
And remember: “If you can get some funding for it, who cares?” – Chuck Bryant [56:28]