Podcast Summary: "Selects: How Forgiveness Works"

Podcast: Stuff You Should Know
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Date: January 10, 2026
Episode Theme: A deep dive into forgiveness—how it works psychologically, evolutionarily, and culturally, and why it’s such a complex and uniquely human act.

Overview

In this engaging, philosophical episode, Josh and Chuck explore the concept of forgiveness: its history, science, religious context, and practical applications. They use real-life stories, scientific research, and classic pop culture references to unpack why forgiving is sometimes so difficult and yet so essential—for both personal wellbeing and social harmony. They examine the “two sides of the same coin” relationship between forgiveness and revenge, look at how animals and humans evolved these behaviors, and discuss evidence-based approaches for actually learning to forgive.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Forgiveness in Culture and Pop Culture

• Forgiveness is less frequently depicted in movies than revenge, and that’s telling of its complexity.
  Josh: “A movie about forgiveness… it’s more complicated. It’s harder. We’re not as good and we’re not as automatically adept at forgiveness as we may be with revenge.” (07:10)
• Examples of revenge movies: I Saw The Devil, Oldboy, Death Becomes Her, Blue Ruin.
• Notable forgiveness-themed films: Magnolia, The Fisher King—but the hosts note there are far fewer and forgiveness is often a subplot, not the centerpiece.

2. Why Is Forgiveness So Hard?

• Humans are evolutionarily wired for revenge, which is universally understood and cathartic (“we love revenge movies”), while forgiveness feels more superhuman—akin to “solo climbing Mount Everest.”
• Real-world acts of extreme forgiveness (e.g., forgiving someone who accidentally or even criminally killed a loved one) receive outsized media attention because they seem so rare and monumental.
  Chuck: "Could I do that? Could I reach that point of forgiveness?" (11:29)

3. Astonishing Real-Life Example

• The case of Shantae Mallard, a woman convicted after letting a hit-and-run victim die—a truly horrific story.
• The real news: The victim's son forgave her in the courtroom.
  Chuck (quoting the son): “There are no winners in a case like this… I still want to extend my forgiveness to Shantae Mallard and let her know that the Mallard family is in my prayers.” (10:57)
• This act inspired even convicted murderers to raise a college scholarship for the victim’s son.

4. Forgiveness in Religion

• All major religions have forgiveness as a core tenet—Christianity, Jainism, Hinduism, and Buddhism.
  • Christianity: The “seventy times seven” parable of Jesus.
  • Jainism: “I grant forgiveness to all living beings...” (15:12)
  • Chuck (on religious forgiveness): “It’s a powerful weapon you have to regain your own strength as a human.” (16:00)
• Science initially treated forgiveness as the domain of religion before adopting it as a legitimate subject for empirical study.

5. The Evolutionary Science of Forgiveness and Revenge

• Revenge as Social Signaling: In animal groups, revenge is a form of deterrence and social order—if you don’t retaliate, you broadcast vulnerability.
  • "[Revenge] is to broadcast to the rest of the group, you are not to be messed with." (Josh, 21:53)
• Forgiveness as Social Glue: Studies (notably Franz de Waal’s chimp research) show animals often reconcile after fights—“kiss and make up”—demonstrating evolved forgiveness to preserve valuable social relationships. (22:07)
• Valuable Relationship Hypothesis: You retaliate to establish boundaries but reconcile to maintain essential connections for survival and cooperation.
• Negative reciprocity: “If someone smites you, you smite them back the same amount and then forgive them.” (24:02)
• Chuck: “If you don’t forgive and burn that bridge... you’re not valuable to the group.” (24:02)

6. Forgiveness in the Legal & Social Context

• Well-functioning justice systems help individuals “outsource” revenge and focus on forgiveness.
• Increasing revenge/vigilantism in societies with perceived unfair justice (the U.S. included).
• A key (but often overlooked) function of the justice system: helping victims emotionally move on.
  Josh: “I’ve never really thought about the courts and the justice system as set up to help individuals move along…” (27:06)

7. The Psychology of Forgiveness

• Forgiveness is about self-healing: “Releasing pain and anger so you can feel better.” (28:25)
• Genuine forgiveness is largely unconditional—not contingent upon the wrongdoer’s remorse or apology.
  • To forgive is not to condone or to say what happened was “okay.”
  • It is “letting go” of anger but not necessarily forgetting the wrong.
• Fred Luskin (Stanford): “To forgive is to give up all hope for a better past.” (33:33)
• Anger and pain are natural, protective processes—not to be skipped or ignored on the way to forgiveness.

8. Learning to Forgive: Is It Possible?

Yes. Psychology suggests forgiveness is a skill that can be learned and enhanced, even if your upbringing didn’t model it.

Worthington’s REACH Model for Forgiveness (48:35)

1. Recall– Objectively remember the offending event—you must actually feel the feelings.
2. Empathize– Try to understand the other person’s context (not excuse).
   • Example: Worthington himself used this method after his mother was murdered, finding it helpful.
3. Altruistic Gift– Recognize that forgiveness is something you can give, just as others have given it to you.
4. Commit– Publicly or privately declare your forgiveness; it cements your decision.
5. Hold– Sustain your forgiveness even if you re-experience pain or anger.

Other Approaches

• Forgiveness doesn’t require telling the other person; it can be entirely internal.
• Genuine forgiveness requires time and deliberate choice—not “flipping a switch.”
• Some psychologists argue “letting go” or moving on without forgiving can also be healthy, depending on circumstance.

9. Health Benefits of Forgiveness

• Chronic anger and resentment cause physiological harm—high blood pressure, cardiovascular issues, diabetes.
• Multiple studies suggest the act of forgiving can reduce stress and improve health markers.
  • In one experiment, unforgiving people physically perceived hills as steeper and literally couldn’t jump as high—showing psychological states affect physical capacities.
  • Holding a grudge activated people’s nervous systems, raised blood pressure, and led to muscle tension—even just thinking about a grudge for an hour.
    Josh: “It was just an exercise... that was the finding.” (44:32)

10. Religion & Forgiveness—Does it Make Us More Forgiving?

• The research is mixed: religious people self-report as more forgiving, but real-world actions may vary.
• Some evidence suggests that long-term, religious people may have fewer grudges, but religiosity is not the only or even primary factor.

11. When Not to Forgive?

• Some psychologists advise against “mandatory” forgiveness, especially in cases of ongoing harm or abuse; forgiveness should never be coerced by family, religion, or culture.
• Quick forgiveness can enable re-victimization (notably in abusive relationships).
• Forgiveness should never come at the cost of self-respect or personal safety. Josh: “If the point of forgiveness is to achieve peace in yourself, if you can achieve peace and you do it without forgiving… that’s OK too.” (53:27)

12. Complexities and Final Thoughts

• Forgiveness can be an act of self-preservation, not sainthood.
• There’s no universal rule: forgiveness is personal, sometimes necessary, sometimes inappropriate.
• Self-forgiveness is a related but distinct (and growing) research area, worthy of its own episode.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Josh (07:10): “A movie about forgiveness… It’s just more complicated… We’re not as automatically adept at forgiveness as we may be with revenge.”
• Chuck (10:57, quoting victim’s son): “There’s no winners in a case like this… I still want to extend my forgiveness…”
• Chuck (16:00): “It’s a powerful weapon you have to regain your own strength as a human.”
• Josh (21:53): “[Revenge] signals to the rest of the group, you are not to be messed with.”
• Fred Luskin (33:33): “To forgive is to give up all hope for a better past.”
• Josh (53:27): “If you can achieve peace in yourself and you do it without forgiving somebody… that’s ok too.”

Highlighted Timestamps

• 07:10: Why forgiveness isn’t popular in movies; societal allure of revenge
• 10:57: Real-life example of radical forgiveness in the courtroom
• 15:12 – 16:00: The religious/ethical roots of forgiveness across faiths
• 21:53 – 24:02: Evolutionary origins of revenge and forgiveness
• 33:33: Fred Luskin’s memorable definition of forgiveness
• 38:32 – 39:18: Forgiveness can be learned; it’s not just an innate trait
• 44:32: Research showing a grudge causes immediate physical effects
• 53:27: The case for not forgiving—when it’s healthy not to

Tone & Style Notes

The episode is thoughtful, philosophical but delivered with the trademark lightness and humor of Josh and Chuck—pop references, personal confessions, and a relatable, non-preachy vibe.

Conclusion

Forgiveness is not just a religious ideal or psychological abstraction, but a complex, evolved tool for personal and social flourishing. The hosts emphasize: It's hard, often messy, and always personal. There are ways to learn it, and reasons NOT to do it. Whichever path you take, the primary concern is your own peace and well-being.

For further reading:

• Psychology Today 1999: “Must We Forgive?”
• Fred Luskin, Stanford’s Forgiveness Project
• Everett Worthington, REACH Model for Forgiveness