Selects: How Forgiveness Works

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Selects: How Forgiveness Works"

Podcast: Stuff You Should Know
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Date: January 10, 2026
Episode Theme: A deep dive into forgiveness—how it works psychologically, evolutionarily, and culturally, and why it’s such a complex and uniquely human act.

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Overview

In this engaging, philosophical episode, Josh and Chuck explore the concept of forgiveness: its history, science, religious context, and practical applications. They use real-life stories, scientific research, and classic pop culture references to unpack why forgiving is sometimes so difficult and yet so essential—for both personal wellbeing and social harmony. They examine the “two sides of the same coin” relationship between forgiveness and revenge, look at how animals and humans evolved these behaviors, and discuss evidence-based approaches for actually learning to forgive.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Forgiveness in Culture and Pop Culture

• Forgiveness is less frequently depicted in movies than revenge, and that’s telling of its complexity.
  Josh: “A movie about forgiveness… it’s more complicated. It’s harder. We’re not as good and we’re not as automatically adept at forgiveness as we may be with revenge.” (07:10)
• Examples of revenge movies: I Saw The Devil, Oldboy, Death Becomes Her, Blue Ruin.
• Notable forgiveness-themed films: Magnolia, The Fisher King—but the hosts note there are far fewer and forgiveness is often a subplot, not the centerpiece.

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2. Why Is Forgiveness So Hard?

• Humans are evolutionarily wired for revenge, which is universally understood and cathartic (“we love revenge movies”), while forgiveness feels more superhuman—akin to “solo climbing Mount Everest.”
• Real-world acts of extreme forgiveness (e.g., forgiving someone who accidentally or even criminally killed a loved one) receive outsized media attention because they seem so rare and monumental.
  Chuck: "Could I do that? Could I reach that point of forgiveness?" (11:29)

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3. Astonishing Real-Life Example

• The case of Shantae Mallard, a woman convicted after letting a hit-and-run victim die—a truly horrific story.
• The real news: The victim's son forgave her in the courtroom.
  Chuck (quoting the son): “There are no winners in a case like this… I still want to extend my forgiveness to Shantae Mallard and let her know that the Mallard family is in my prayers.” (10:57)
• This act inspired even convicted murderers to raise a college scholarship for the victim’s son.

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4. Forgiveness in Religion

• All major religions have forgiveness as a core tenet—Christianity, Jainism, Hinduism, and Buddhism.
  • Christianity: The “seventy times seven” parable of Jesus.
  • Jainism: “I grant forgiveness to all living beings...” (15:12)
  • Chuck (on religious forgiveness): “It’s a powerful weapon you have to regain your own strength as a human.” (16:00)
• Science initially treated forgiveness as the domain of religion before adopting it as a legitimate subject for empirical study.

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5. The Evolutionary Science of Forgiveness and Revenge

• Revenge as Social Signaling: In animal groups, revenge is a form of deterrence and social order—if you don’t retaliate, you broadcast vulnerability.
  • "[Revenge] is to broadcast to the rest of the group, you are not to be messed with." (Josh, 21:53)
• Forgiveness as Social Glue: Studies (notably Franz de Waal’s chimp research) show animals often reconcile after fights—“kiss and make up”—demonstrating evolved forgiveness to preserve valuable social relationships. (22:07)
• Valuable Relationship Hypothesis: You retaliate to establish boundaries but reconcile to maintain essential connections for survival and cooperation.
• Negative reciprocity: “If someone smites you, you smite them back the same amount and then forgive them.” (24:02)
• Chuck: “If you don’t forgive and burn that bridge... you’re not valuable to the group.” (24:02)

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6. Forgiveness in the Legal & Social Context

• Well-functioning justice systems help individuals “outsource” revenge and focus on forgiveness.
• Increasing revenge/vigilantism in societies with perceived unfair justice (the U.S. included).
• A key (but often overlooked) function of the justice system: helping victims emotionally move on.
  Josh: “I’ve never really thought about the courts and the justice system as set up to help individuals move along…” (27:06)

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7. The Psychology of Forgiveness

• Forgiveness is about self-healing: “Releasing pain and anger so you can feel better.” (28:25)
• Genuine forgiveness is largely unconditional—not contingent upon the wrongdoer’s remorse or apology.
  • To forgive is not to condone or to say what happened was “okay.”
  • It is “letting go” of anger but not necessarily forgetting the wrong.
• Fred Luskin (Stanford): “To forgive is to give up all hope for a better past.” (33:33)
• Anger and pain are natural, protective processes—not to be skipped or ignored on the way to forgiveness.

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8. Learning to Forgive: Is It Possible?

Yes. Psychology suggests forgiveness is a skill that can be learned and enhanced, even if your upbringing didn’t model it.

Worthington’s REACH Model for Forgiveness (48:35)

1. Recall– Objectively remember the offending event—you must actually feel the feelings.
2. Empathize– Try to understand the other person’s context (not excuse).
   • Example: Worthington himself used this method after his mother was murdered, finding it helpful.
3. Altruistic Gift– Recognize that forgiveness is something you can give, just as others have given it to you.
4. Commit– Publicly or privately declare your forgiveness; it cements your decision.
5. Hold– Sustain your forgiveness even if you re-experience pain or anger.

Other Approaches

• Forgiveness doesn’t require telling the other person; it can be entirely internal.
• Genuine forgiveness requires time and deliberate choice—not “flipping a switch.”
• Some psychologists argue “letting go” or moving on without forgiving can also be healthy, depending on circumstance.

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9. Health Benefits of Forgiveness

• Chronic anger and resentment cause physiological harm—high blood pressure, cardiovascular issues, diabetes.
• Multiple studies suggest the act of forgiving can reduce stress and improve health markers.
  • In one experiment, unforgiving people physically perceived hills as steeper and literally couldn’t jump as high—showing psychological states affect physical capacities.
  • Holding a grudge activated people’s nervous systems, raised blood pressure, and led to muscle tension—even just thinking about a grudge for an hour.
    Josh: “It was just an exercise... that was the finding.” (44:32)

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10. Religion & Forgiveness—Does it Make Us More Forgiving?

• The research is mixed: religious people self-report as more forgiving, but real-world actions may vary.
• Some evidence suggests that long-term, religious people may have fewer grudges, but religiosity is not the only or even primary factor.

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11. When Not to Forgive?

• Some psychologists advise against “mandatory” forgiveness, especially in cases of ongoing harm or abuse; forgiveness should never be coerced by family, religion, or culture.
• Quick forgiveness can enable re-victimization (notably in abusive relationships).
• Forgiveness should never come at the cost of self-respect or personal safety. Josh: “If the point of forgiveness is to achieve peace in yourself, if you can achieve peace and you do it without forgiving… that’s OK too.” (53:27)

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12. Complexities and Final Thoughts

• Forgiveness can be an act of self-preservation, not sainthood.
• There’s no universal rule: forgiveness is personal, sometimes necessary, sometimes inappropriate.
• Self-forgiveness is a related but distinct (and growing) research area, worthy of its own episode.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Josh (07:10): “A movie about forgiveness… It’s just more complicated… We’re not as automatically adept at forgiveness as we may be with revenge.”
• Chuck (10:57, quoting victim’s son): “There’s no winners in a case like this… I still want to extend my forgiveness…”
• Chuck (16:00): “It’s a powerful weapon you have to regain your own strength as a human.”
• Josh (21:53): “[Revenge] signals to the rest of the group, you are not to be messed with.”
• Fred Luskin (33:33): “To forgive is to give up all hope for a better past.”
• Josh (53:27): “If you can achieve peace in yourself and you do it without forgiving somebody… that’s ok too.”

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Highlighted Timestamps

• 07:10: Why forgiveness isn’t popular in movies; societal allure of revenge
• 10:57: Real-life example of radical forgiveness in the courtroom
• 15:12 – 16:00: The religious/ethical roots of forgiveness across faiths
• 21:53 – 24:02: Evolutionary origins of revenge and forgiveness
• 33:33: Fred Luskin’s memorable definition of forgiveness
• 38:32 – 39:18: Forgiveness can be learned; it’s not just an innate trait
• 44:32: Research showing a grudge causes immediate physical effects
• 53:27: The case for not forgiving—when it’s healthy not to

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Tone & Style Notes

The episode is thoughtful, philosophical but delivered with the trademark lightness and humor of Josh and Chuck—pop references, personal confessions, and a relatable, non-preachy vibe.

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Conclusion

Forgiveness is not just a religious ideal or psychological abstraction, but a complex, evolved tool for personal and social flourishing. The hosts emphasize: It's hard, often messy, and always personal. There are ways to learn it, and reasons NOT to do it. Whichever path you take, the primary concern is your own peace and well-being.

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For further reading:

• Psychology Today 1999: “Must We Forgive?”
• Fred Luskin, Stanford’s Forgiveness Project
• Everett Worthington, REACH Model for Forgiveness

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Transcript

[iHeartRadio Announcer]

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[Josh Clark]

Hey, everybody, it's me, Josh. And I thought for my picks this year I would kick off 2026 with a very sweet, moving, and also eye opening episode on forgiveness. It turns out all of us have the capacity to forgive, but that's not always the best course of action for any given circumstance. This episode also has a lot of really great stories of amazing acts of forgiveness by people who forgave others against all odds. It's a good episode and I hope you enjoy it and I hope your year is going wonderfully so far.

[iHeartRadio Announcer]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartradio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. And there's Chuck. And Jerry's here too. And this is stuff you should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Some philosophical waxing's gonna happen in this one.

[Josh Clark]

I think it's inevitable. Chuck.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And Don Henley songs.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, that's a good one too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Heart of the Matter.

[Josh Clark]

Mm.

[Chuck Bryant]

You like it?

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[iHeartRadio Announcer]

All right.

[Josh Clark]

That part where he's like, I'm learning to live without you now. It stirs my soul every time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Forgiveness. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You'd have to be dead inside to not be stirred by that part.

[Chuck Bryant]

I agree.

[Josh Clark]

It's good. Good song. But he really kind of nails it in that because he's talking about forgiveness.

[Chuck Bryant]

And the heart of the matter.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. And he wants forgiveness. He needs forgiveness. Even if, like, it's the end of the relationship.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Even if she doesn't love him anymore.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. So on the one hand, that is a certain kind of forgiveness that an individual or person Can. That's a path someone can set down. But there's been a lot of research starting. Starting in the very beginning stages at the middle of the 20th century, but really picking up in the 90s, research into forgiveness, like legitimate scientific research. And it's a multidisciplinary thing because there's a lot of different fields, disciplines. Sure. That have said, hey, this actually, this is something we can study and measure and produce articles and work on. And they have. They've produced some really good legitimate work. But what most of them have been focused on is not the Don Henley position of somebody who needs to be redeemed, who needs redemption to feel better, who needs forgiveness, but rather the person doing the forgiving, the person who was originally transgressed against not the offender, but the offendee. That's where most of the research has been done on forgiveness.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Don Henley is a rock star, so he's writing a song about wanting to be forgiven for a foursome he had in St. Paul backstage.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Even if you don't love me anymore can you forgive me? That, you know, can you blame a guy is what he's saying.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, I think that's probably exactly what that song's about.

[Chuck Bryant]

Now that you mentioned it, that's the subtext.

[Josh Clark]

So I think we should start by pointing out something about forgiveness. Is that a lot of people. There's a lot of stories about people not forgiving. We call it revenge, and people love revenge. You know, like, think about the revenge movie genre and how many entries there are.

[Chuck Bryant]

Pretty great.

[Josh Clark]

Like, have you ever seen I Saw the Devil?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Have you ever seen Oldboy?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Have you ever seen Death Becomes Her?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Have you ever seen she Devil?

[Chuck Bryant]

Nope.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, you haven't? With Roseanne Barr and Ed Begley and Meryl Stress?

[Chuck Bryant]

Never saw that. Was that a revenge movie?

[Josh Clark]

Yes. All of them great revenge movies.

[Chuck Bryant]

Can I shout out one of my favorites?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, please do.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like, legitimately. Kind of a smaller indie movie called Blue Ruin.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, I saw that one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Great, great revenge movie. If you're into revenge movies, and I am, I enjoy it. There's a catharsis involved because I'm a big forgiver. So I think I like seeing movies where revenge happens.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And we'll talk a lot about, you know, revenge because they're virtually two sides of the same coin, and they really interact in some surprising ways that are sensible when you see it laid out, but you might not necessarily be walking around thinking about. But on the other side, if you look up movies about forgiveness, almost all of them were produced by a megachurch somewhere in the south. Or you've got Magnolia and then the Fisher King. Are like the two legitimate contenders for movies about forgiveness?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I don't know, because I think there's a fine line sometimes between redemption stories and forgiveness stories.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

They can kind of go hand in hand. There are plenty of redemption stories.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, like what?

[Chuck Bryant]

What redemption stories?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, let's hear it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I mean, Hoosiers, one of the great sports redemption movies.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. I think that's a pretty loose definition of redemption. No.

[Chuck Bryant]

You shitting me? Former alcoholic coach who. Who was not working because of some bad deeds gets redeemed by leading the team to a championship. Dennis Hopper gets redeemed as the alcoholic father.

[Josh Clark]

Wait a minute. Was Gene Hackman on the road to redemption? I thought he came in and basically got Dennis Hopper redeemed himself.

[Chuck Bryant]

This was a double redemption. He was getting redeemed as well.

[Josh Clark]

All right, okay, okay, okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

But plenty of redemption stories. And I think there's a lot of movies that wrestle with the idea of forgiveness and really weighty, heavy ways. Like these true stories that you hear about these awful things that happen, whether a family member is accidentally killed by someone or murdered by someone. Like, there's a lot of that stuff in movies.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, so my thesis was this, and this is strictly me editorializing here, but I think there's some validity to it, and that is that the reason why it's much easier to name revenge movies is because revenge appeals to our baser instincts. It makes sense. It's universally understood. And like you said, you even consider yourself a big time forgiver, and yet you enjoy revenge movies. It's cathartic for you. There's something to be delivered by a revenge movie, a movie about forgiveness. It's just more complicated. It's harder. We're not as good and we're not as automatically adept at forgiveness as we may be with revenge. That's why I think there's fewer forgiveness movies. But that's not to say that we're not moved by it, because I think if you hear. Whenever you hear real life stories of forgiveness, they just bowl you over.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Even when you step back and think about, like, what the person's actually doing, you're like, yes, legitimately, anybody could do what they just did. It's akin to hearing somebody solo climbing Mount Everest or something like that. It makes the news literally when somebody forgives in a really deep way that the average person might not.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, like a big time transgression. A lot of times you'll hear of a courtroom scene where someone has forgiven the person who, like, murdered their relative or loved one or something. And that man, that stuff is powerful. You're right. Every time you see these stories, you dug up this one story from Berkeley, the Greater Good magazine, science based insights for a meaningful life out of UC Berkeley of this woman who was a nurse's aide who hit a guy. She had been drinking, hit a guy in her car, he went through the windshield and was stuck there. And she was so impaired she didn't realize it for a while, eventually realized it, got out of the car, could not get the guy out, who was still alive, mind you, and so drove home and parked her car in the garage to let this guy slowly die in her garage over the course of.

[Josh Clark]

A couple of days. And like, she sobered up, would go out and check on him once in a while, but refused to call for help because she was too concerned about getting in trouble. Sure. So instead she let him die, had a couple friends come help her hide the body, move the body, and then actually got found out later on because four months later she was at a party and she joked about it to an acquaintance who went and told the cops. And this woman ended up getting 50 years in prison. That's a horrible story. Like, that's one of the worst things that a human being could possibly do. There were so many opportunities for this woman to save this man's life. And by the way, everyone involved in that court case who had a medical degree said that had she called the cops, the fire department, taken the guy to the hospital, he almost certainly would have survived those injuries. But given that she didn't for days get him medical aid, he finally did succumb to them, but he probably would have survived. Almost certainly would have survived. Like, what she did was about as horrific as what a person could do and just so irresponsible with human life. And she rightfully got a 50 year prison sentence for that crime. And yet, despite how horrific that was, what made news just as much as that is that a short time later, that man's son, the man who was hit and killed, publicly forgave that woman for killing his father.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. At the sentencing, said, quote, there's no winners in a case like this. Just as we all lost Greg, you all will be losing your daughter to her family. I still want to extend my forgiveness to Shantae Mallard was her name, and let her know that the Mallard family is in my prayers. And this is the kind of stuff like you said, that makes the news where I think it hits everybody because it makes everybody stop for a second and say, could I do that?

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Could I reach that point of forgiveness? And that's a big weighty question because there's all kinds of forgiveness. There's, you know, a couple partners together who get in a fight and someone says they're sorry for doing a certain thing and they're forgiven or not. There are situations at work where people are forgiven. There are friends who maybe betray you by like cheating on somebody with someone. I had a situation like that where I had a former friend I felt like cheated with, my barely ex girlfriend, and I spent quite a few years being upset about that and then forgave him. And it's a powerful thing. So there's like levels, but when you get to this kind of thing where someone caused the death of a loved one and then even laughed about it, like, to be able to forgive, like, that is just. That's next level.

[Josh Clark]

It is. It is so much so, Chuck, that a group of convicted murderers who were serving sentences in prison heard about this and I guess got in touch with one another and raised funds and got a $10,000 scholarship together for Brandon Biggs to go to college. The convicted murderer sent the kid to college because this very generous act of public forgiveness of his own father's murderer. So, yeah, it is. It's an astounding thing. And yet everything that, like the research that really, like I said, started to take off in earnest in the 90s has shown us is that we're all perfectly capable of doing that. The answer is yes. Yes, you can do that. You totally could do that, but that we don't necessarily fully understand how to. And yet there's a lot of evidence also that it's evolutionarily wired into us to do that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And we'll get into religiosity of it a bit more in detail later. But all religions talk a lot about forgiveness. There's a pretty famous story in the Bible where Peter said to Jesus, lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times. And Jesus said, I tell you, not seven times, but 70 times seven. And Peter said, so 490 times. And Jesus said, oy, Peter, always so literal. Yeah, that one's pretty good. But you know, you can read Hindu, you can read the Buddhists talk about it. Like everyone, every religion talks about forgiveness as kind of a, maybe a cornerstone of the religion in some cases.

[Josh Clark]

So much so that when science started Looking into forgiveness and just trying to figure it out. Generally people just presumed forgiveness was under the realm and the domain of religion, that that's where, that's where you went for answers about forgiveness. And science said, ho, ho, ho, we can top that. Surely we can beat that 490 number. And that's what they've set about doing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, Jesus forgave his crucifiers. It's like one of the few things Jesus said on the cross. According to the Bible.

[Josh Clark]

Impulse raider.

[Chuck Bryant]

They know not what they do. Like forgive them for they know not what they do.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And like you said, it's not just Christianity. Although Christianity gets all the accolades for forgiveness, Jainism is a big one. There's a kind of a mantra from Jainism that says, I grant forgiveness to all living beings. May all living beings grant me forgiveness. My friendship is with all living beings. My enmity is totally non existent. And that's, I mean, when you look at that, especially if you're not a Jainist, you're like, wow, how would you ever reach that level? And I think the point is, like, you never reach that level. It's an ideal goal that you try to achieve probably on a daily basis if you're a Jainist, but it's certainly over a lifetime, you know. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And I'd like to read this again, not to pile on the religious stuff, but the Hindu one really spoke to me. This one part in the middle says, what can a wicked person do unto him? Or unto one who carries the saber of forgiveness in his hand? And that one really speaks to me in that it's a powerful tool to forgive and it's for you as the forgiver. I think a lot of times people think it can clear the conscience of someone who's done something wrong. I guess that certainly happens. But to me it's really about. It's a powerful weapon you have to regain your own strength as a human.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. That seems to be the bulk of what psychology is coming up with as far as studying forgiveness goes, that it's really the person who has been wronged. That's what forgiveness is more about. That's the psychological aspect of it. Like we said, it's a multidisciplinary investigation. And so you've got evolutionary biologists who are like, that's really great psychology, but we found a different reason for forgiveness and it doesn't quite fit that mold. And then the medical field says, no, it's even better than that. You can actually improve your health by, by genuinely forgiving somebody so there's all these different inputs that are coming together to create this really complex contextualized picture of what forgiveness is and what it does for us and why we have it.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. I think it's a great setup.

[Josh Clark]

I agree. You want to take a break?

[Chuck Bryant]

I might just not come back. That feels so good about that.

[Josh Clark]

No, we have to finish. We got to complete.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll be back in a minute to talk about what I think is probably the most interesting part of this is the evolutionary aspect. Right after this.

[Evan Ratliff]

Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with a basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick.

[Evan Ratliff]

One page business plan for you.

[Josh Clark]

Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.

[Chuck Bryant]

There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company which would have been like unimaginable without AI. And now will happen.

[Evan Ratliff]

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

[iHeartRadio Announcer]

Oh, hey Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents in small to medium businesses.

[Evan Ratliff]

Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Chuck Bryant]

So this was this. This is Livia. Correct.

[Josh Clark]

Forgiveness was the Dave Ruse joint.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay. I thought this was Livia. So yeah, thanks to Dave for this. He did a great job with his research. But the evolutionary aspect of forgiveness is super interesting to me because I think that a lot of people assume that it's what Dave calls a higher virtue. Like, you know, Tuk Tuk and the gang were so base as kind of primitive thinkers is that they didn't have the capacity to forgive. They would smite somebody if someone punched Tuk Tuk in the face. Tuk Tuk punch back. Or someone attacked Tuk Tuk attack back, maybe even harder. And there is quite a bit of evidence that they're not mutually exclusive and that fighting back and forgiving both have a big evolutionary advantage.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So the big evolutionary advantage of revenge is if you live in a social group and somebody takes advantage of you or they hit you or they steal your food or whatever. If you don't do something to right that wrong, you're broadcasting to the rest of the group that you're open for exploitation and that's not good for you. It's also not good for the chances that you're going to pass along your genes. And so under the auspices of natural selection, it makes sense for you to hit that person that steals your food or who hits you. And that's revenge. And revenge forms that function in a social group. It says to everybody, it signals to the rest of the, the group, you are not to be messed with. This guy tried it and look what happened to him. Nobody else should try that. Go pick on somebody else. And there's actually been studies that have showed that not just among apes and primates, but among human cultures, revenge is found pretty much universally. And I saw a study, Chuck, that said that the mere presence of a person, a third party who's witnessing an argument and increases the chances that the argument is going to come to blows because you're signaling to the rest of the group and in this case, just that third person, you are not to be messed with. That, that's the purpose of revenge, is to broadcast that signal.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, I would say that any kind of dumb drunk bar fight, half of it is the fact that someone doesn't want to back down in front of other people.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know more than half.

[Josh Clark]

Totally.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that if those two guys were just in a alley somewhere, they may just hug it out. Yeah, probably not. But you never know.

[Josh Clark]

It's possible. Or they, they might talk it out at least.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Or just agree that it's dumb and leave. Yes, but you talked about studies in the animal world. There was a primatologist named Franz de Waal who looked at wild chimps, recorded 350 encounters, aggressive encounters between these chimps and then what happened afterward? And in 51% of these encounters, the chimps would literally kind of kiss and make up and touch each other and embrace each other after a fight. We've seen the same thing in bonobos and great apes. There's sheep, there's dolphins, there's goats, even hyenas have shown traits of forgiveness. So it's, it's not ubiquitous, but it is all over the animal kingdom. Animals fighting and then animals making up with one another.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So I mean, the revenge one's pretty easy to understand, but then you're like, okay, well, why would there be the making up part? But that also ties into the fact that these same animals are also living in tight knit social groups. And so you have a limited amount of people that you can possibly have a dispute or a feud with. And if you're not working together cooperatively in that sense also your chances of survival are decreased. So what makes sense is what's called the valuable relationship hypothesis, which says if somebody hits you, you should hit them back, but then after that you should make up with them. So you're sending that signal you're not to be messed with, but then you're repairing that relationship, that valuable relationship that you, you depend on to help your survival in the social group. You're repairing it and then you guys can move forward. And that, that is how revenge and forgiveness are basically two sides of the same coin, or at least work in conjunction with one another to keep the group functioning at its best.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. And that kind of dovetails with a second part of that thing which is called negative reciprocity, which is if someone hits Tuk Tuk and Tuk Tuk goes crazy and just starts wailing on the other person who just slapped him in the face. That's not good either because everyone's gonna go, whoa, Tuk Tuk. I'm not sure I trust him now. He's definitely burned that bridge forever between him and the other guy. And none of this is very good. So what they found is negative reciprocity. If someone smites you, you smite them back the same amount and then forgive them. Like if someone takes off their glove and slaps you across the face, you don't kick them between the legs and then wail on their face, you slap them back with your glove. And then you talk about forgiving one another. And everyone sees that you can work with people, you can stand your ground, but you can also forgive and work with people, which means you're valuable to the group and you're valuable to have around.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And so kind of tied into what you were saying earlier about how there's this idea that revenge is a base instinct and forgiveness is a higher instinct, rather than realizing that they're both pretty basic instincts among the animal kingdom is there's this idea that in human society we have created like these social institutions in these contexts so that the individual doesn't have to carry out revenge and then forgiveness, that they can just focus on forgiveness. As long as those social institutions are doing what they're supposed to do, as long as there is like a pursuit of justice and you can rely on the idea that the person who transgressed against you by killing your father is going to be caught and punished and sentenced to jail, you don't have to worry about revenge, it's being conducted for you. And then you, the individual in this well functioning society can just focus on whether you want to forgive or not. And that, that's that kind of higher and lower echelon because in the opposite situation where there isn't like a good sense of justice, where it does seem like if you want justice you have to go seek it out yourself, revenge is going to be much more exercised much more frequently than forgiveness will.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Which says a lot about the United States these days, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, I'm not trying to be cynical even. I mean, that's just sort of what we see around us. I think a lot of people feel like the sense of justice in this country is pretty skewed. And that's why you might see the increases in things like vigilantism or revenge. And I don't know what societies you look to to do a study like that. I'm kind of curious on the ones that are very well policed and the justice is sort of fair and equal. But I think that's one of the problems in the States these days. For sure.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Without getting too far down that rabbit hole.

[Josh Clark]

But also even, you know, it's kind of eye opening to me because I've never really thought about the courts and the justice system as set up to help individuals move along.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it should be.

[Josh Clark]

You just think of it as punishment. It's a system for punishment, not for redemption necessarily, but it's also to help the victims. I just never saw it that way before.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's interesting when you talk about that guy in court and a lot of times you'll hear the courtroom forgiveness. Sometimes you also hear the opposite and you hear the courtroom like, I will never forgive you for what you did to me. And I think not always, but it seems to be a lot of time tied to whether the transgressor has really acknowledged what they've done and sought forgiveness and said, that was the worst thing I've ever done in my life. And I don't think you should ever forgive me. It's an interesting sort of dance that happens there. Cause it's not a one to one thing. It's not like every time a bad criminal that does something really asks for forgiveness and says it was a terrible thing, the other person forgives. So sometimes the person who could laugh it off, like this lady did and not ask for forgiveness, any other person could forgive. Which I think goes back to the notion that forgiveness comes from the forgiver.

[Josh Clark]

Right. That it's really about the person who's been wronged. That's who it's about. And so, yeah, now we've reached the kind of psychology's domain over the concept of forgiveness, which is that it's about you, the individual who suffered a wrong, releasing the pain and the anger and the resentment and all the negative feelings that you're experiencing so that you can feel better. And that it doesn't matter whether the other person is asking for forgiveness and that it doesn't even matter if the other person deserves forgiveness or not. That genuine forgiveness, psychologically speaking, according to some psychologists, we'll hear that some disagree, but that genuine, true forgiveness is unconditional. That you forgive the person whether they deserve it or not.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And this is to where the language to me is a little. I could see people debating this because it is forgiveness in a way, but to me, it's almost more of just a letting go.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I agree with you.

[Chuck Bryant]

Of an anger. So it's not. It's so tricky with the definition because when you think of forgiveness, you think I'm saying. And it's really not what it is. What you're not saying is, it's okay what you did.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. So.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes, you know what I mean? That's not a key component of forgiveness.

[Josh Clark]

No, no, it's not. And that's a very confusing thing for a lot of people too. Is that the idea that if you forgive somebody, you're condoning their behavior, you're saying it's okay what they did. That's not the point of forgiveness. From what psychologists who research this are coming up with, they're saying, no, what you're doing when you forgive somebody is to say, I know what you did, you wronged me.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know what you did last summer.

[Josh Clark]

I can live with that. It doesn't make it Any better. It doesn't make it any better. It doesn't excuse what you did, and it certainly doesn't excuse future repeated instances of what you just did. But it's saying, I'm willing to let go of the pain I have associated with this act you did against me. Wrong. And I'm going to move forward with my life. And in doing that, I'm willing to let you move forward as well.

[Evan Ratliff]

Well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or I think sometimes in a case like this, that kind of forgiveness can make the transgressor suffer worse. Sometimes.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Just out of guilt.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And they want to be admonished and hated as part of a punishment. But, you know, TS you know, because again, forgiveness is not for you, it's for the person. Dave even makes a great point. The person being forgiven is secondary or even unnecessary to the process. And that's sort of the key. You don't even have to tell that person necessarily. We'll get to later. Some kind of like, how to forgive. Some people say that you should tell someone out loud, like literally tell someone. But you. You don't necessarily have to tell that person if it's a situation like this or even if it's like a close personal friend, like I think usually you do when it's someone you know, because that's a part of communicating with one another in a healthy way. But if it's the person who killed your family, you don't have to tell them to forgive them and you can still forgive them.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. So some psychologists define forgiveness like a full forgiveness and as including you actually seeking out contact with that person. And that if you forgive them but don't tell them or you still avoid them afterward, where it's like, hey, I forgive you, but good luck with the rest of your life. You're not in my life anymore. That to some psychologists, not all. Some psychologists say that's not genuine forgiveness. That's akin to what you were saying, which is letting go of anger and moving on, but not really actually forgiving.

[Chuck Bryant]

I still say it's forgiving. I'm not one of the psychologists.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. And it's very much debated, for sure. But then that also leads to another point too, that if you forgive somebody, it doesn't necessarily mean you forget. And that's not part and parcel to it. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. You can forget. I'm actually really good at that kind of thing where I forgive, because unless it was a really huge wrong, it just kind of fades from my memory fairly easily. And I don't dwell on it so they can go hand in hand. But if you've been deeply wronged by somebody where you're actually going through the process of forgiving, which we'll talk about, and it's a deliberate step that you're taking toward finding peace with yourself in your life again, then you know very well what that wrong was and you're not going to forget it. But eventually the aim is that you will have divorced the emotional attachment from that memory of that wrong to where it becomes akin to like a movie you saw once or a trip you took once. Like, it's not. It's just a thing that happened in your life rather than this crisis that is sucking up your attention and emotions.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I really like this definition from Fred Luskin, who is a psychologist and forgiveness expert, for what it's worth, director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. And Fred's definition is to forgive is to give up all hope for a better past. And that really lays it out there in a very practical sense that what has happened, has happened. You may not be there yet in your journey to forgiveness or the letting go, but you cannot change what happened, no matter what. How angry you are or how much you want someone to pay for it or suffer or how much revenge you want. So there is no better past. That's impossible. So giving up hope for a better past, it's sort of a bleak definition, but one that I think is pretty instructive.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, but it's also a realistic definition too, if you think about it, because you can't change the past one way or another. You can only alter how you let the. The past continue to affect you or not. And the other thing I really want to say here right now, because it can be confusing for me too, when I think about forgiveness and anger and stuff like that is like, this is not. No one is talking about something like throwing a switch or like, rather than feeling anger, you feel forgiveness. That's actually counterproductive, as we'll see. You can't replace anger with forgiveness. Forgiveness is meant to come after anger because you use anger or hurt or resentment or whatever your version of that is to protect and guard your own boundaries. So it's unnatural for you to not have some sort of negative emotion or negative response to being wronged, but you don't want to replace that or try to replace it with forgiveness because you may accidentally trip up the process and you're not really legitimately feeling forgiveness. You're basically just setting yourself up to be wronged again.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, my deal personally is Emily always talks about what a forgiving person I am because I really crave to forgive. I don't know, I was about to say crave forgiveness. I crave forgiving. I guess it sounds funny, but I just. All I need is for someone to say they're sorry for something and then it's done. Nine times out of 10, that's done for me. And as far as forgetting, like, I'm a pretty good forgetter too. I don't know about like literally forgetting something, but I definitely look back on a lot of relationships, especially with like ex girlfriends that were terrible and go, oh, what was so bad in there in that relationship? We were pretty good, right?

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, we weren't pretty good at all. I just have rose colored glasses and I think you and I are both like as podcasting partners and family and team. Good about when we have little dust ups forgiving one another if the other person says they're sorry. You and I both get over that stuff pretty quickly.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Which is.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's very key though, you know, like.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, you can't.

[Chuck Bryant]

Forgiveness is like from the heart. If you're hanging onto something, then you're not done with it yet.

[Josh Clark]

No, but. And that is so important, Chuck. That's important for the individual to remember that if you are unable to forgive, that means that you're still hanging on to it. That doesn't mean you'll never forgive. And that also doesn't mean you have to hurry up and forgive. It means you're still in the process of reaching the point where you can forgive. It's a deliberate choice. From everything I've seen in the research, you are making a deliberate choice to forgive somebody. But it's not throwing a switch. It's part of a process. And during that process, while you're on the road to forgiveness, forgiving the person, you're still going to be kind of angry at them. Maybe not the whole time, but every once in a while it might hit you before you've fully forgiven them and you're going to be mad about it all over again. That's okay. That's normal. That's natural. You can't really rush it. You can, but it's going to be detrimental. What you want to do is just kind of let it play out and have faith that if you're on the path to forgiveness, you ultimately will forgive the person and things will be good again.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And depending on your life and your childhood, like, you probably have an inclination or an instinct to forgive or not based on what you saw, what was modeled, there's both nature and nurture involved. But I think people generally have an instinct of revenge or forgiveness, and to do one or the other that is against that instinct requires great effort, especially in the case of forgiveness. Because you may not be inclined to be a forgiver at all. That doesn't mean something's wrong with you. That just means that's probably what you saw growing up. Or maybe something happened to you when you were young that makes it harder for you, but it's still possible to get there. It just might be tougher.

[Josh Clark]

Well, what's neat is another thing that the field of psychology is telling us about forgiveness is that it can be taught. You can learn to forgive. Even if you were raised in an unforgiving environment where you never learned how to do that, you can learn how to do it. And I say we kind of jump to those, to how to forgive before we go into physical health, because I feel like we're kind of there right now.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, well, let's take a break.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's take our final break and we'll talk about that when we get back. As well as this one sort of interesting study, I'd like to hit real quick too, okay?

[Josh Clark]

Learning stuff with Joshua and Charles. Stuff you should know.

[Evan Ratliff]

Hi Kyle, could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan, just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick.

[Evan Ratliff]

One page business plan for you.

[Josh Clark]

Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.

[Chuck Bryant]

There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company which would have been like unimaginable without AI. And now will happen.

[Evan Ratliff]

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

[iHeartRadio Announcer]

Oh, hey Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses.

[Evan Ratliff]

Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so there's this study that Dave dug up that I thought was interesting. I think it's flawed, but interesting.

[Josh Clark]

Extreme social psychology.

[Chuck Bryant]

They took 46 people. They divided them into two groups. One wrote about a time when they had something, some wrong committed against them, but they forgave. The other wrote about a time when they had something wrong committed against them, but they did not forgive. And then they told those people to stand at the bottom of a hill to estimate how steep it was and also in a separate part of the study, to jump as high as they could. The unforgiving group guessed that the incline was 5 degrees steeper on average than the forgiving, and the forgivers jumped 7 centimeters higher. So the takeaway here is you, literally, it's more difficult for you. You see the world as being more difficult and steeper and you can't jump as high and you can't accomplish as much if you're holding onto that. All kinds of red flags to this study, especially when it comes to the jumping part. Yeah, but I thought it was interesting, the guessing, the incline of the hill. There may be something to that.

[Josh Clark]

Well, yeah, and I mean, it is backed up, Chuck, by the physiological studies of how stress and anger affect you and how releasing those can actually help you. There's a lot of research that shows that you can suffer from chronic stress when you're angry all the time. And that that's tied to everything from high blood pressure to diabetes to poor cardiovascular outcomes. Just a whole host of chronic conditions can be traced back to chronic stress, and chronic stress can be traced back to chronic anger. And what they're discovering is that forgiveness can actually undo that, can actually reverse that. There was a study that rated people based on the life stresses they'd had. And they apparently recruited participants for this study who'd been through a lot of stress, so much so that they were basically always chronically stressed because they have had so many terrible events in their life. And there was one group that actually did not have poor health compared to the rest of the group. And they found that when they gave them a test of forgiveness, of how forgiving they were generally, they found that this subset was actually overall a very forgiving group and that that somehow was battling back the chronic stress or the effects of chronic stress on their health in life.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean I think that makes complete sense if you were someone who really has a problem with forgiving and just holds on to these deep, deep resentments against people, usually against people very close to you and your family. Even that just, that can't be good for you physically. I've seen it happen. I don't want to get too personal, but there are people in my family who haven't spoken for 20 plus years over dumb stuff that it's like, you see that kind of like stubbornness coupled with resentment. And it's just man, that is just no way to live. No way to live.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So there was another one that another study that Dave turned up that shows that even like in a very short term thinking about holding a grudge can actually affect you physiologically by activating your sympathetic nervous system. As Dave puts it, the battle or skedaddle impulse. And they found that they cut these two groups into or they cut the participants into two groups. All of the people had to think about some time when they were deeply wronged in the past. And then one group was taken through an exercise where they learned to forgive the person. The other group, this is so mean, was encouraged to hold a grudge to. They were basically taught, they went through an exercise to hold a grudge and be angry and resentment or resentful about that. And they found that the people who were taught to hold the grudge had elevated skin conductance which meant their nervous system was aroused. Higher arterial blood pressure, not good. They also had muscle tension in the brow area. You know, when your brow's furrowed, when you're stressed out or mad. And that they. The symptoms. Even after they went through an exercise to basically de. Escalate everything, the symptoms persisted. And this was just an exercise where you were just thinking about being wronged and then holding a grudge about it. Just, just like a probably this was like an hour out of their lives. And that's. That was the effects. That was the findings of that. So it's pretty clear that, that yes, anger can, can affect you physically and, and what they haven't. We don't have the reams of data that we have supporting it like we do that anger hurts you physically. But there's. There seems to be the opposite of that holds true which is releasing that anger, which is forgiveness in whatever form it takes can actually improve your health as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Earlier in the episode we were talking about religion all Religions talk extensively about forgiveness. And when they do studies these days, usually like questionnaires and stuff, depending on the studies you look at, you would think religiosity does play a role in that. People who describe themselves as religious supposedly in some studies are two and a half times more likely to say that others should be forgiven unconditionally. But I know you found some studies that found that religiosity does not play as big a role as a lot of people think it does. And that sometimes religious people may be more inclined to say that they are forgiving when they aren't because it's the right thing to do.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The study found that when you ask, basically when you survey them, people who are religious tend to come off as more forgiving. They self report as forgiving.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

But then if you ask them other certain questions, I guess in real world situations, they're no more forgiving than other people. But. So that would be an interpretation, that they think they're more forgiving or tell people they're more forgiving than they actually are. But there is another way to look at it too. And they went back and followed up on that study and they found that over a longer term, people who are religious actually do tend to be more forgiving in their lives. It wasn't like the most set in stone study, but I found it interesting that they had it harder. The religious people in this study had more difficulty in relating grudges that they're carrying around compared to the control group of people who weren't religious.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Makes sense.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

There was some redemption there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. As far as how to forgive, like we said, hopefully we've gotten it through. That is something you can learn. If you are not an inherent forgiver, you can learn how to through practice. There's a psychologist named Worthington Worthington. Edward Everett Everett Worthington.

[Josh Clark]

There should be a third after that, if you ask me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Totally should be. And Worthington has developed REACH Model, which we'll go through. It's an acronym, of course. Recall is the first step, and that's to really recall the event in detail, but in sort of an objective way. And not necessarily something that was done to you, but just to look at the detail of it and try not to judge yourself or the other person. Just simply bring that back to your mind.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And the point of that is to feel the feelings like we have. We humans have such a tendency to try to get away from negative feelings and run toward positive feelings. And I think Worthington's position is that we have to Feel whatever feelings are associated with it, and that's a huge part of it. We have to go through that experience. It's part of the recall.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. The E stands for empathy. This is one that is. I don't know about controversial, but it's not everyone agrees at all on whether or not you need to actually have empathy to forgive. But empathy can certainly help you forgive. If someone has broken into your home and stolen from you, it might help to forgive them, to empathize and think about where they may be in their life to feel like they needed to do something like that is one example.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And he points out also, like, you're not excusing their behavior, but you're just thinking about beyond just a villain or criminal or person who wronged you, for sure. And actually, we should say Everett Worthington had to put his money where mouth was because his mother was actually murdered by a burglar, I think, back in 1997. And he put himself through this, the reach method. And he said he came out on the other side better off than he had been.

[Chuck Bryant]

And I think he was already doing this. Right. That didn't inspire his career, did it?

[Josh Clark]

No, no, I think he was already doing it, coincidentally.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wow. The ironies.

[Josh Clark]

So the A stands for altruistic gift. And the point of this is that you realize that you are actually giving a gift by forgiving somebody, even, I guess, if you don't tell them, even if you don't necessarily empathize with them. But the way you do this, the way you recognize that your forgiveness is an altruistic gift, is to think about times where you've wronged somebody and that they've been forgiven or forgiving. And even if you didn't necessarily deserve it and what a gift that that was, you're kind of bringing it to mind, which I think is really suspiciously kind of tied in with empathizing, if you ask me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, he was trying to make the word reach.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Commit to this is what I mentioned earlier about telling someone else doesn't necessarily have to be the person you're forgiving, although that could help if you want to go that route. But telling someone else, at least in Worthington's mind, gives it a degree of permanence, makes it real, basically makes it part of your story. Like you're changing the story, essentially.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. And then hold. And this is very important, too, that we said earlier, you can forgive, and it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to forget. So when you do remember that kind of thing, you're still going through the process and you're still angered by it, you're still hurt by it, but you're on the path to forgiveness. You have to hold on to the idea that you're working on forgiving them, that it's not an instantaneous thing. So you have to hold the fact that you're forgiving them even in the face of, you know, being triggered by or flooded by this. Again, when you think about the memory of it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Luskin has a nine step process, which we're not gonna really get into, but step eight is interesting. Just like REM says, living well is the best. Revenge is the sort of the nuts and bolts of number eight. And there's something to be said for that. But I think it also makes it much harder to forgive and move on if you're not able to live well. And that doesn't mean, you know, money and riches and stuff like that.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

That means just living a full life. But if you're not able to forgive and get past that, I mean, there are plenty of movies of people that have been. Have some awful thing from their past that they're just wallowing in all these years later. And that's the central plot of the film.

[Josh Clark]

You know, she Devil.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hoosiers.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. But that's. I mean, that's the point of forgiveness is to. Is to free yourself, to find peace within yourself. And yes, it's great for the person who wronged you if you overtly forgive them and let them know, but you don't have to. And then also, Chuck, there's a whole school of thought in psychology that says not only do you not have to tell the person that you're forgiving them, you don't have to forgive them at all. And that there's this whole almost kind of not culty, but really kind of dogmatic idea that if you don't follow these steps and you don't like genuinely, fully forgive somebody, you really haven't worked out the process, there's something wrong with you. Maybe you're an unforgiving person and that makes you tacky. That's what psychologists call it. And there's a whole group of psychologists say, no, no, no, there's way more to this process than just nine steps or the reach method. It's more nuanced than that in that you can be a fully functioning, emotionally developed person who says, you know what? I don't forgive you. I may never forgive you, but I'm still going on with my life. And if the point of forgiveness is to achieve peace in yourself, if you can achieve peace in yourself and you do it without forgiving somebody because you don't want to forgive them or you don't feel like you should forgive them, then that's okay too, as long as you're getting inner peace. That's the point.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And there's a school of thought saying that in cases where, like, a harm has been committed to you that could happen again, you may be more likely to have that harm committed to you again if you do forgive too much. There is research about spousal abuse that when you are too, or when you're quick to forgive the abuser, then you are victimized more regularly than spouses who aren't as forgiving. And that's based on operant learning. Basically, you're less likely to engage in a behavior that has a negative consequence. So they've done plenty of research on that. And a lot of psychologists say, like, yeah, forgiveness is great, but while you shouldn't be bitter, there are a lot of times when you should not forgive somebody. And that's okay.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, there's a whole. There's an article from 1999 on Psychology Today called Must We Forgive? And it is really interesting. It's fascinating. This psychologist writes about probably half a dozen or more people and their different individual circumstances and the reasons they chose not to forgive. And she kind of pigeonholes them into like three general categories. But because psychologists love doing that. But it's a really compelling article and it's definitely worth reading. And it provides this kind of alternative idea that, like, no, there's definitely situations where some people don't deserve your forgiveness. One of the chief among them is if you say like a sibling or a family member of some sort, you have some sort of falling out with, or they've wronged you and you choose not to forgive them, you might feel tremendous pressure from the rest of your family to just go ahead and forgive them. That's a terrible reason to forgive somebody. And if you do forgive them under those circumstances or say because your religion decrees it, you're like, that's not full forgiveness. And it may actually harm you because you may suffer from a distorted self image or lowered self respect because you basically went back to this person who not only wronged you in the past, is unrepentant about it, but is just going to continue the behavior again in the future. So there's definitely instances where you probably shouldn't forgive, but that doesn't mean that you should be Stuck in resentment and anger and letting that person have power over your life, you might just need to move on without them and without forgiving them. And you can make that work as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, there was that one terrible story that you sent about the woman who as a child had this terribly bullying and abusive older brother. And we won't even talk about the awful things this guy did. But the parents were really always pushing like, oh, he just doesn't, he doesn't know how to say he loves you. He doesn't know how to talk to you. So he does these things and you really need to forgive him. And that's just, that's bonkers, you know, that is a situation where you were doing such great harm as a parent to teach your daughter to accept this kind of behavior and not only accept it, but forgive it. It's like just setting her up for. Unless she really therapies through that stuff later in life of just a series of terrible relationships. So.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. Yes, yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Forgiveness isn't always the thing. I have a friend who had a terrible thing happen to him when he was younger and we talked a lot about this and he has forgiven that person in his heart. And I was like, well, I haven't. And it's like, I'm still angry about it. And he was like, thanks, like that helps. I'm angry and have not forgiven on his behalf. And I thought he was gonna say like, no man, you need to do the same. And he was like, he was like, thank you, man, I appreciate that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I think that's another thing worth pointing out too is we have this concept of people who forgive others being saintly. And it's not necessarily that kind of a thing. It's not necessarily that kind of a process. Sometimes it is just straight up self preservation like you are. That's the way that you're going to get to a point where you can feel peace again in your life. And that doesn't mean you're a saint or you're even feeling saintly or you're conducting yourself in a saintly manner. And that doesn't matter as long as you're feeling inner peace and your life is no longer in turmoil and this person who wronged you doesn't have power over you any longer. That's the point of forgiveness.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And that was totally the deal in his case, is that was his only way forward to healing himself. But since this wasn't something that happened to me, I was able to not forgive and remain upset about it. And he was okay with that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And still to this day, you won't buy that guy a beers.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man.

[Josh Clark]

So there's one other thing that has started to kind of come out of the shadows that's just getting picked up by psychology as far as forgiveness goes. And it's self forgiveness, and we don't really have room to talk about that here. But it's worth exploring sometime. Maybe in a short stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's a big deal. Just a lot of times when I'm beating up on myself, Emily says, you need to be nicer to my friend.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I know you've told that before. I always just think that's like one of the sweetest things I've ever heard. What a kind thing to say.

[Chuck Bryant]

It works.

[Josh Clark]

You know who needs to hear that? Don Henley. You got anything else on forgiveness, Charles?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got nothing else. This is a good, weighty, philosophical discussion. I like these.

[Josh Clark]

Agreed. Thanks a lot to Dave Ruse for helping us out with this one. And if you want to know more about forgiveness, you should seriously go out and do some reading. Especially if you have something to forgive, it's not something you necessarily can understand. Just instinctively it helps to see what the experts say. So maybe go explore. Explore that and free yourself. Since I said free yourself, that of course means it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm going to call this dental art. Hey guys. Been a listener for a while. I've nearly finished with the sandwiching method. Before I knew it was even cool, we were talking a few shows. You were talking a few shows back before the holidays about putting a kidney stone in Chuck's replacement tooth. This would be unusual, but people actually get custom inlays and artwork made for their crowns. Inlays are generally gold or gemstone with a custom artwork. And it's referred to as a tooth tattoo, which is hand painted onto the crown before it gets a final coat of glaze. The most common request here in the Chicagoland area are sports logos.

[Josh Clark]

Oh no.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like a little Chicago Cubs logo on your dude. But I've seen names, company logos, even a tiny version of Starry Night on a tooth. While a lot of modern crown and bridge manufacturing has gone digital, highly leveraging CAM CAD and 3D printing for most restorations, tooth tattoos are unique manifestation of the relatively unknown artistry of a subset of dental technicians.

[Josh Clark]

Wow.

[Chuck Bryant]

While I recognize the dentistry as a whole is widely disliked and a pain to endure, I appreciate that you guys probably unknowingly helped to destigmatize restorative dental work by openly talking about your dealings with it. Tooth wear and decay is part of the human condition. No need for shame. After all, we'll keep me and my cadre employed and happily listening to stuff you should know. Many regards, that is from Eric Crowley or Crowley. Probably Crowley. I'm going with Crowley in Park Ridge, Illinois.

[Josh Clark]

Very nice. Thanks a lot, Eric. That's awesome. Can you imagine seeing Starry Night on a tooth? I got to look that up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Be wonderful. I'd have the scream.

[Josh Clark]

That's a good one. And then you could scream whenever you reveal it too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, just freak people out.

[Josh Clark]

And speaking of sports teams, Chuck, I feel like we should congratulate our Georgia Bulldogs for winning the national championship.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. Never thought I would see the day. What a great, great game. Just unbelievable feeling. Two championships in three months for this long suffering Atlanta, Georgia.

[Josh Clark]

Van I know, it's amazing.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't even know how to reconcile these feelings that I'm having lately.

[Josh Clark]

They'll be robbed from you next year. Don't worry. We'll go back to normal. But that is pretty great to. To go out on a highlight, probably.

[Chuck Bryant]

So. It was great. Go Dogs.

[Josh Clark]

Go Dogs indeed. And if you want to get in touch with Chuck and I and Jerry or Frank the chair or Harry Dog even, we can probably pass along emails you send. You can wrap your emails up, spank them on the bottom and send them off to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.

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