Selects: How Jim Henson Worked

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Selects: How Jim Henson Worked"

Stuff You Should Know
Hosts: Josh Clark & Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant
Episode: Selects: How Jim Henson Worked
Release Date: April 26, 2025
Production: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction to Jim Henson

The episode delves deep into the life and legacy of Jim Henson, the visionary behind the beloved Muppets. Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant express their admiration for Henson, highlighting his multifaceted role as a puppeteer, filmmaker, and creative genius.

Josh Clark [07:08]: "If you haven't listened to the episode on the Muppets, this is what I consider just a more in-depth part two on the man himself."

Early Life and Career

Jim Henson was born on September 24, 1936, in Mississippi. Influenced by his creatively inclined maternal grandmother, Henson pursued studio art in college but found his path steering towards puppetry. His initial foray into the world of puppets was unplanned, stemming from his studies in Home Economics which offered puppet-making courses.

Chuck Bryant [08:35]: "He almost kind of made himself destined to be on television by being obsessed with it."

During his high school years, Henson was already on local TV with guest spots, showcasing his early talent in creating engaging content. In 1955, he launched "Sam and Friends," a show that laid the groundwork for his future endeavors.

Sesame Street and the Muppets

In 1969, Henson was invited to participate in the pilot of "Sesame Street," a project by the Children's Television Workshop. Although he did not create the show, his contribution was pivotal in developing iconic characters like Big Bird and Oscar the Grouch. Henson's role extended beyond puppeteering; he directed various segments, blending educational content with entertainment seamlessly.

Chuck Bryant [17:00]: "He's not a creator of Sesame Street. They just hired him on."

Henson's collaboration with prominent puppeteers like Frank Oz and Jerry Jewell during this period was instrumental in shaping the Muppets' distinctive charm and appeal.

The Muppet Show and Its Impact

Henson's ambition to create "The Muppet Show" materialized in 1975 when he secured a deal with producer Lord Lou Grade in London. The show became a monumental success, winning numerous awards and captivating audiences worldwide with its unique blend of humor, music, and puppetry.

Josh Clark [25:07]: "The Muppet show was a huge hit. It won a lot of awards. It garnered critical praise and won the hearts of children all over the world."

The show's format, reminiscent of classic variety shows, allowed for a diverse range of sketches and guest appearances, setting a new standard for puppet-based entertainment.

Later Works: The Dark Crystal, Labyrinth, and Fraggle Rock

Expanding his creative horizons, Henson ventured into more mature and fantastical realms with projects like "The Dark Crystal" (1982) and "Labyrinth" (1986).

• The Dark Crystal: A groundbreaking film that relied entirely on puppetry, creating an elaborate fantasy world crafted by artist Brian Froud. Although it initially underperformed at the box office, it has since gained cult classic status for its innovative storytelling and visual effects.

  Chuck Bryant [33:42]: "If you look at some of these, like, some of the CGI movies today, I think that Dark Crystal was a precursor to a lot of those."

• Labyrinth: Starring David Bowie and Jennifer Connelly, "Labyrinth" blended live-action with puppetry, offering a whimsical yet intricate narrative. Despite not being a major commercial success, it remains a cherished film among fans for its imaginative design and captivating performances.

Josh Clark [34:57]: "He was always pushing technical, visual, stylistic, thematic boundaries as far as he could, and they didn't always work."

Additionally, "Fraggle Rock" (1983), one of the first original series for HBO, focused on themes of acceptance and cooperation among diverse communities, earning multiple awards and critical acclaim.

Josh Clark [28:05]: "Fraggle Rock was great... the whole point of that show was to show how different types of people can live together and work together in peace."

Jim Henson's Legacy

Jim Henson's untimely death in 1990 due to a staph infection cut short a prolific career. However, his influence endures through the Jim Henson Legacy, founded by his wife Jane in 1993, which preserves and promotes his contributions to the world of puppetry and entertainment. The legacy continues through his children, who manage the Henson Company and maintain the beloved characters Henson created.

Josh Clark [40:25]: "His children, his legacy lives on through. In 1993, Jane, his wife, founded the Jim Henson Legacy to preserve his contributions, share them with the public."

The acquisition of the Muppets by Disney and the sustained popularity of Sesame Street characters ensure that Henson's creations remain integral to popular culture.

Chuck Bryant [41:32]: "They own the Muppets. Apparently, the Henson company sold the rights to the Sesame Street characters to Sesame Street, which is pretty cool."

Behind the Scenes and Technical Innovations

Henson was not just a creative mind but also an innovator in puppetry technology. He pioneered the Henson Performance Control System, a remote control mechanism that allowed for more expressive and dynamic puppet performances, earning him an Academy Award.

Chuck Bryant [38:00]: "He also pioneered the Henson performance control system and won an Academy Award for that."

His approach to puppetry emphasized the illusion of living, breathing characters, a standard that has influenced generations of puppeteers and animators.

Josh Clark [37:42]: "He would go... Kermit the Frog would be a guest on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson."

Conclusion

Jim Henson's work transcended the boundaries of traditional puppetry, integrating it seamlessly with television and film to create enduring characters and stories. His legacy is a testament to his relentless pursuit of innovation and his belief in the power of imagination. Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant honor Henson's contributions, encouraging listeners to explore his extensive body of work and appreciate the depth of his creative genius.

Joshua Clark [38:26]: "He was always pushing technical, visual, stylistic, thematic boundaries as far as he could, and they didn't always work."

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Notable Quotes:

• Josh Clark [07:08]: "If you haven't listened to the episode on the Muppets, this is what I consider just a more in-depth part two on the man himself."

• Chuck Bryant [17:00]: "He's not a creator of Sesame Street. They just hired him on."

• Josh Clark [25:07]: "The Muppet show was a huge hit. It won a lot of awards. It garnered critical praise and won the hearts of children all over the world."

• Chuck Bryant [33:42]: "If you look at some of these, like, some of the CGI movies today, I think that Dark Crystal was a precursor to a lot of those."

• Josh Clark [28:05]: "Fraggle Rock was great... the whole point of that show was to show how different types of people can live together and work together in peace."

• Josh Clark [40:25]: "His children, his legacy lives on through. In 1993, Jane, his wife, founded the Jim Henson Legacy to preserve his contributions, share them with the public."

• Chuck Bryant [38:00]: "He also pioneered the Henson performance control system and won an Academy Award for that."

• Josh Clark [37:42]: "He would go... Kermit the Frog would be a guest on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson."

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This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of Jim Henson's work, offering listeners both nostalgic reflections and insightful analysis of his enduring impact on entertainment and culture.

Transcript

[Josh Clark]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast with T Mobile. No Trendspotter has to deal with Trendspotty service because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off at the $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com KeepAndSwitch up to four lines via virtual prepaid card. Last 15 days qualifying unlock device credit service port in 90 plus days device and eligible carrier and timely redemption Required card is no cash access. It expires in six hey everyone, I want to talk to you for a sec about Squarespace and specifically Squarespace Payments. If you're running a business and using Squarespace, you're doing the right thing because Squarespace Payments is the easiest way to manage your payments in one place. Onboarding is fast and simple. You can get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away. Plus, you can give your customers more ways to pay with very popular payment methods like Klarna ACH direct debit in the US, Apple Pay Afterpay in the US and Canada, and Clearpay in the UK. Just go to squarespace.com stuff and you can get a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use our offer code stuff to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Good morning everyone. I hope you are watching Saturday morning cartoons or maybe the Muppets, because this one is all about Jim Henson. I'm often asked what our favorite episodes are when we do the Q and A at live shows. And many, many times I go back to the ones on the Muppets and Jim Henson because he was just one of the best. This is from January 6, 2015 how Jim Henson Worked American Hero. That's not part of the title. That's just me. Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Howdy and Jerry. For the last time this year, she's just informed us and she's all smiles. She is not very nice.

[Josh Clark]

Jerry, how'd you like that presentation earlier, the sensitivity training?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

It was great.

[Josh Clark]

Yes, people, because we work for a corporation, we have things like sensitivity trainings. And in those trainings you get shown video examples of various forms of harassment and they are the best, most fun things to watch ever.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

They're pretty overt.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I could watch those all day long.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I was wondering how much that production company made from that. You know, they did, what, like five little vignettes. I'm sure they paid the actors like literal peanuts.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they were bad actors.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

They were like, there's the peanut bucket over there. You can pay yourself.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The one that really got me was the. Actually, they were all really funny, but the one with the old guy in the factory loading boxes like a shipping warehouse. And they were giving the old man a hard time about everything.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Cause he was old.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Cause he was old. And they were giving him a hard time because he was out of work for a while, and they'd had to cover for him, the old man. And he had the back brace on. Did you notice that? And the look on his face. He just kept getting a little more pouty the whole time.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I was like, dude, that's good acting.

[Josh Clark]

Stick up for yourself. Tell these young kids, you know what to do.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

The back brace prevents them from it.

[Josh Clark]

Anyway, I just had to bring that up because I just think that stuff is so funny. And what's funny is people really do some of that stuff that you're like, what? There's some creeps out there. That was a really weird setup for Jim Henson because he's the least harassy guy he was probably ever.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he certainly comes across that way.

[Josh Clark]

He's a genuinely good dude. It's not one of these stories you hear about, like, maybe some of your favorite children's books writers or cartoonists or something, maybe were kind of bad people.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No, apparently not at all.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

He was. Not only. So there's a lot of quotes in this article. John. No, I thought John Strickland wrote it. It turns out that's not the case. I'm surprised.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Because he's friends with or down with at least one of Jim Henson's kids.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, really?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Who I believe lives here in Atlanta.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, wow.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And. But in this article, it's one of those things where everybody who compliments Jim Henson, who worked with him, they. They go to the trouble of complimenting him in a way that's not just like, oh, he was such a great guy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

They all back up just a little bit, because they're cognizant that that doesn't get it across.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And they want you to understand that they're talking about more than just the great guy. Like, oh, he's dead, and I'm not gonna speak ill of the dead. And he was a great guy. And that's a really thoughtless polite inoffensive thing to say.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So, like, Frank Oz said something like, he was a great guy, but at the same time, you know, he was a human, but he was still a really great guy.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So, like, what you're thinking of as a great guy, get rid of that and actually replace it with a genuine human great guy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because as a filmmaker, he's a puppeteer, obviously, but he was a filmmaker first and foremost, which a lot of people kind of forget about. Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Did you watch any of these?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah. That's a tough, tough job. Super stressful. And you and I have seen it can make good guys and good ladies be real jerks and yell under stressful situations. You know, it's a tough thing. There's a lot of money on the line each day.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

It's like, everybody relax. It's just millions of dollars.

[Josh Clark]

But Frank Oz, I think that's the point he was making. Like, even when he would get frustrated and stressed like that, he was still a good guy behind it all.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I read a. I read an. I guess it was a book review of a biography about him that, that showed that it was all. Somebody said it was all just play to him.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Like work was play.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Even though he worked really hard, he was able to commit himself like that to his work because to him, he was having the time of his life.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

All the time. And apparently, like, there was just, there was no line between work and play, which now that we've seen that sensitivity training could have gotten him in a lot of big, you know, a lot of trouble. But he, he, he just enjoyed the life that he had, from what I understand, loved cars.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

He had like a Lotus that was the same color as Kermit the Frog. He had a Rolls Royce early on from his work.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Let's talk about, let's talk about the guy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I mean, if you haven't. I just need to go ahead and say, if you haven't listened to the episode on the Muppets, this is what I consider just a more in depth part two on the man himself. But that's one of our favorite all time episodes. And from feedback, one of the great all time fan episodes.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it was a great episode.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It was just a lot of fun. And so I hope this augments that one. I hope we do it justice.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So that's actually one of the reasons why we can do this episode because we already did a Muppets episode and.

[Josh Clark]

They tweeted about us. Do you remember? The Henson Company did.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they Did.

[Josh Clark]

Which was. They approved it.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Got their actual approval.

[Josh Clark]

That's right, man.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That was something. The. The Muppets episode is its own thing. It's about Muppets. This is about Jim Henson. And it's appropriate that we're doing this because he was more than just the Muppets, even though everybody pegs him with the Muppets. And, like, that is a huge thing. He was more than that. Like you said, he was a filmmaker, but originally started out as it a puppeteer, but kind of a reluctant one.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He was born in 1936, September 24th. James Maury Henson M A U R Y in Mississippi. And his grandmother, maternal grandmother, was a painter and a quilter and a needleworker, and apparently was a big inspiration to him just to seek out the creative in life.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Which is pretty great.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. And one of the things he got into. Well, he was originally kind of a fan of ventriloquism a little bit, but he said later on in life that he was never obsessed with puppets or anything like that like you would have expected him to be. And as he went to college, I think in Maryland, he got into. He started out as a studio artist. That's what he was studying.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He loved television above all else. From the time he was a little kid, he was just transfixed by the tube.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

He almost kind of made himself destined to be on television by being obsessed with it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But he kind of stumbled into puppetry in college, and he started out as a studio art major and ended up graduating with a Home EC degree, because Home EC was the only degree that offered puppet making courses.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He majored. Or he took a puppetry course at first, and then a bunch of textiles and crafts courses, which is a great way to start building and making your own puppets.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right. But he graduated with a home EC degree, but by the time he graduated, he was already extremely successful. The Rolls Royce that I mentioned, he bought in time to drive to his college graduation because he'd already created successful shows in his town.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think he was in high school. He was on the local TV station doing little guest spots. And then in 1955, the show Sam and Friends debuted. And that, you know, he also did work on the side, making money with. I think he did some of the, like, really cool concert posters of the day.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Really colorful silk screen posters. And Sam and Friends did really well, but he still wasn't quite sure. Like, I still don't know if I want to. You know, I'm a filmmaker. I did these Short films, really sort of weird, abstract short films. Live action, experimental. Totally experimental.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Did you see the Timepiece? Oh, yeah, that one was pretty cool.

[Josh Clark]

It was great in its way.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And did you see the Cube?

[Josh Clark]

I watched parts of the Cube that was.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Did you see the end?

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, you got to see the end. I skipped the middle because I was like, okay, I get where you're going with this.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Well, we should just set it up real quick. The Cube was a show on NBC. It was a one hour show in 1969. The name of the show NBC did was called Experiment in Television. Appropriately, it was a different thing each week. And he had one week's installment called the Cube, which was a guy just stuck in a white room. But other people could come in and out of the room, but he could not, Right?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And he starts to go kind of crazy. And it has the look and feel of a color TV ad, Like, lots of overacting and, like, Carol Burnett esque characters and stuff like that. But the sentiment behind it and, like, the everything behind it is really neat. And it really gives you a good. An eye opening example of, like, what Jim Henson was capable of, but also, like, what he was into. Because, you know, when you think of him, you think of Muppets and Sesame street in particular.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. And these are weird abstract art films, not unlike, you know, you watch, like, a Jim Morrison art film from film school, and it's kind of the same style, you know, that was what was going on back then.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And he actually got nominated for an Academy Award for Timepiece, I think.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Jim Henson. Jim Henson had Jim Morrison beat by a mile as far as experimental films went.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I'll agree with you there. So, like I said, he wasn't quite convinced that puppetry was his future because he was a filmmaker. And he was like, puppets are still kind of kid stuff, but post college, he did the old tour of Europe. And in Europe, puppeteering is a whole different business. It was a lot more serious and a lot more.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I guess it was treated as art.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, exactly. And he said, you know what? I am gonna give this a shot. Came back to the U.S. married Jane, and even though he and Jane separated, they never divorced.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, really? I thought they did.

[Josh Clark]

No, they never fulfilled the divorce. They just stayed separated.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

And then he started making TV commercials and formed his own company in 1963 with. I don't know if he formed it with Frank Oz, but he hired Frank Oz and Jerry Jewell, who ended up being obviously legendary puppeteers and lifelong collaborators of His. Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. But he started out making a. Basically a puppet based commercial ad agency in New York.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

In 1963.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And they weren't making funny commercials back then, so he was really pretty revolutionary.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And they, I mean, they did pretty well for themselves. And one of the smartest moves he made early on was all of his contracts said that he retained the rights to any of the creations he made for these companies.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So he was creating what, some of the things that would later become famous Muppets, like the Cookie Monster was originally made for a chip maker. It was this puppet that couldn't get enough of these chips.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He was the wheel stealer. And he stole cheese wheels.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Okay. That's what it was.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And he ended up being the Cookie Monster. And the reason he ended up being the Cookie Monster is because Jim Henson retained the rights to that creation.

[Josh Clark]

That was. He was a very savvy business guy too.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And he was. He was using somebody else's dime. These. These advertisers.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Like budgets to kind of hash out and form and make his Muppets.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Ralph the dog started out on Purina commercials and was later a sidekick on the Jimmy Dean show in 1963, which.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I remember that from the Muppets episode. Ralph was the first big Muppet then. It's. He's such like a bit character now.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That, you know, it's just mind boggling to think he was the one that started it all. Even before Kermit, before Big Bird, it was Rolf.

[Josh Clark]

Kermit kind of stole the show, I think.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. We'll talk a little more about Kermit and where he came from right after this.

[Josh Clark]

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[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And actually, based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses using LinkedIn say that LinkedIn. LinkedIn helps them find high quality candidates.

[Josh Clark]

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[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Ugh.

[Josh Clark]

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[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Which is pretty cool. I never knew that.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think I knew that.

[Josh Clark]

Did you?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He was. He was our Russ Vic. No, he was their Russ Vic.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Russ Vic is ours.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So, Chuck, the whole thing that changed everything for him was Sesame Street.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

He's not a. He wasn't a creator of Sesame Street. They just hired him on.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And they actually kind of won him over. Because, remember, one of the things that Jim Henson always struggled with his whole career was he wanted to explore places that puppets had never really gone to.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

In themes that they hadn't gone to, at least not in the modern age.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But he was fighting against them, not being taken seriously.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It wasn't like he was anti puppet by any means or anti kids, because one of the big reasons he signed on with Children's Television Workshop was their goal to educate kids. Meant a lot to him. But like you said, I think to merge those worlds successfully was a big part of his goal and struggle for a little while.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Russ Vick, by the way, made the little interstitial things for the Stuff youf Should Know television show.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

The animations, which is why I reference him.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So the Children's Television Workshop, which is now called the Sesame Workshop, from what I understand, they won him over big time. He makes all of these characters from, like, Big Bird and I think Kermit Came before Sesame street. And he started out. I think we talked about this in the Muppet episode, too. He started out looking really weird.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Like a lizard almost.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Not cool at all. Like, really kind of freaky.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Which is something that I. Now that I know a little more about Jim Henson, I think maybe he might have even been going for.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But one of the things that Sesame street allowed him to do was to really kind of explore something that he'd long been obsessed with, which was television and where it converged with puppets, which was all new territory. And Jim Hansen was at the bleeding edge of it.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Because if you think about it, when you go to a puppet show live, you know, you're looking at what's essentially a mechanism for hiding the human. And there's just a little area that the puppet can move around in.

[Josh Clark]

A little tiny fake stage. Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So Jim Henson stepped back and said, okay, the television is that little, tiny area that the puppet can stay. Can move around in.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But it also opens up the whole world for a puppet because you're using camera angles and there's editing and it's not in person.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Just frame out the people.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So. And again, we talked about this in the Muppet episode. He created something called platforming up.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

To where the puppeteers no longer had to, like, crouch down and to maneuver the puppets.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because he was a tall guy.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Tall and lanky man. He was skinny.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, those running shots in timepiece.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

Because he was in it. They were hysterical.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And he weighs about 70 pounds somehow.

[Josh Clark]

His big, lanky legs.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But so, yeah, the performers could stand up, which was a huge weight off.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But at the same time, because you're working with cameras and stuff like that, and they have the whole universe to move around in, and Jim Henson wanted them to move around as much as possible. It also put them in some weird positions.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. If you ever. Well, some people might think it's, like, kind of ruining the thing, but I think it's really neat if you. If you just look up on Google Images, Muppet show behind the scenes pictures.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And it'll show the stage sets, you know, like, six feet off the ground and all the people standing beneath. I think it's awesome to look at. But some people don't, like, you know, they want to keep that illusion alive. Right. So depending on what kind of person you are, either seek that out or don't.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And we gave that warning in the Muppets episode, too.

[Josh Clark]

Did we?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think they're really cool. Pictures.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I agree.

[Josh Clark]

Because, you know, a lot of times they're looking at. They're looking at video monitors standing there contorted, using both hands. Like, the way puppeteers work together to me is just a miracle because they're acting as the puppets, but they're moving, still moving among one another as humans underneath, which can be really complicated. In fact, we know some really, really talented puppeteers here in Atlanta.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. The center for Puppetry Arts is, Yeah. I think the nation's largest puppet puppeteer organization.

[Josh Clark]

Yep. And that is where we had our TV show debut party. Premiere party.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Like, it was a really cool experience. Like, Emmett Otter and the gang are right there on display. I think the Henson and Kermit cut the ribbon for the grand opening.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Back when it opened and ended up donating like 500 puppets and muppets right. To the center for Puppetry Art. So if you ever visit Atlanta, people always email us and say, what should we do? I highly recommend going and checking out the center for Puppetry Arts.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Because they have a museum with, like you said, Emmet Otter.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man. All sorts of stuff.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Like a full size, life size skeksi behind glass. Scary as you can imagine.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But I was talking about Raymond Carr, our friend who. I hate to keep bringing up the TV show, but it all kind of overlaps. He was a production designer for stuff you should know on Science Channel.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And he and his friends Brandon and the gang are amazing puppeteers. And they're doing some really, really leading edge, like, cool stuff here in Atlanta.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Like these giant puppets operated, like, you know, 15 foot tall puppets operated by like six and eight people. Have you ever seen the spaceman that they do?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

It's unbelievable. It's really cool. It's like, I don't know how tall he is. He seems like he's 20ft tall. And they, you know, do these at parades and stuff. And it's just really, really cool stuff.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That's awesome.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But Henson is a huge inspiration to them, obviously.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah. I think anybody who works even remotely in puppets has got to be inspired by Jim Henson.

[Josh Clark]

He's the man.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

One of the other things that he came up with was that was based on putting Muppets or puppets on tv was using softer materials.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Everything else was like, up to that point, stiff wood, marionettes, ventriloquist dummies, that kind of stuff. He used like foam and it allowed the puppets themselves to have more expressive faces, which is great for close up on tv.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And it also, I mean, now looking back, you just are like, well, yeah, of course it's what puppets do. That's what I know. But that was Jim Henson that came up with that, and it changed everything because it took something like. I mean, imagine Howdy Doody. It was like, yeah, it's cool. You know, it's Howdy Doody or whatever. But whether close up or far away, he looked exactly the same. It was like a woodhead with, like, a moving lower jaw. And, you know, he gave you nightmares with Kermit the Frog or something like that. The fact that he could have different expressions and react differently and his emotions could be shown on his face, that made him that much more popular, that much more approachable. Sure. To people who are into him.

[Josh Clark]

Absolutely.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Which is everybody.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah. Show me someone who doesn't like Muppets in any form. I get it if you don't like it anymore, maybe, but your heart is cold and dead inside for a while and this is something I don't think I knew. He dabbled on Saturday Night Live in season one. Lorne Michaels got him a deal to perform some sketches. And ultimately, it wasn't a huge success, and it wasn't the greatest marriage, but it was pretty cool that he was seeking out, you know, different avenues to get those puppets on television.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

It was.

[Josh Clark]

And his big break came in 1975. He had a. He wanted to make the Muppet show, and he had a lot of trouble in the U.S. still, even though he had his various successes on commercials and stuff. So he had to go to London, and a TV producer named Lord Lou Grade gave him a deal with Grades. ATV Studios said, you know what? You can make your show. And the Muppet show was born.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Bada bing, bada boom.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That was it.

[Josh Clark]

That was it.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And you can really see Jim Hinton's love of variety shows and just kind of, well, just the stage in the Muppet show. Because if you think about it, set the whole thing set backstage at a.

[Josh Clark]

Variety show, it's such a great idea when you look back at it. Like, we take it for granted a little bit because we were kids, but now as an adult, it's like, what a perfect way to frame this world is. It's basically like 30 Rock or 30 Rock was the Muppet Show, Right?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, the Muppet show started all that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I don't know if Carol Burnett was before the Muppet Show.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was before.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Was it?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So she did a lot of backstage stuff, didn't she? I wonder who started that.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. Hers was more sketch.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but some of it was like backstage.

[Josh Clark]

Was it?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I believe so. I don't remember that unless I'm hallucinating right now.

[Josh Clark]

They need to have a good old fashioned variety show again.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they don't have those anymore.

[Josh Clark]

Those were big back in the day. You know, like a host comes out and then there's sketches and singing and.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Remember our cabaret? No, it wasn't cabaret. What was it? The episode we did?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, burlesque.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Burlesque, yeah. Yeah. How that started out in vaudeville and burlesque had. That's where stand up comedy came from. That was an interesting episode.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I miss those variety shows, though. Like the Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton and Kel Burnett. All the Van Drell sisters.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Although Kenny and Dolly could just sit on a couch and stare at the camera for an hour and I'd watch that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they are the best.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Great entertainers.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Love those two.

[Josh Clark]

All right, so where are we in our timeline?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, Chuck, the Muppet show has just hit.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, that's right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Things are going pretty well. They have been going pretty well already for Henson, apparently. In 1970, Rubber Ducky hit number 16 on the billboard charts. And for those who don't know, Ernie is voiced by Jim Henson. So Jim Henson sang a song, Rubber Ducky, that made it to number 16 on the Billboard charts. That was 1970, a year after the Cube. Before the Muppet show even happened.

[Josh Clark]

Before Sesame street even. Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No, Sesame street was 69, I think. Same year as the Cube.

[Josh Clark]

Wow, that's crazy.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That's the new touchstone for his life, the Cube.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. PC and bc. So the Muppet show was a huge hit. It won a lot of awards. It garnered critical praise and won the hearts of children all over the world.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But it was also for adults, too.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think that's why he was able to pull it off in Great Britain, because they have better senses of humor.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And speaking of adults, he got into some more serious themes with his next great show, Fraggle rock.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

In 1983.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I never saw a second of that show.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Really wasn't on hbo.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was one of the first HBO original series.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

We either had Showtime or we didn't have hbo.

[Josh Clark]

It was awesome. Fraggle Rock was great. And the idea there is you had the Fraggle Gang and then you had. Well, you had three different groups. You had the home of Doc, who was an inventor, and his dog Sprocket. You had the Fraggles, who shared caves underground of Fraggle Rock with their neighbors. The Doozers and the Gorgs and these gigantic creatures that are in Gorg's garden. And the whole point of that show was to show how different types of people can live together and work together in peace.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

It was really cool. Didn't know it at the time when I was, you know, 12 years old, but what I was learning about was acceptance. And he won three Cable Ace Awards, five International Emmys, and Fraggle Rock was one of the first big hits for HBO as far as TV goes.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Great, great show. Lots of great songs that. I mean, he had every kind of. Like, he had reggae, rock, country, bluegrass.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Really.

[Josh Clark]

He was all over the map with the music on Fraggle Rock.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And he. I mean, he wrote a lot of songs, too. I think he wrote Rubber Ducky. I'm sure he wrote a lot of the stuff on Fraggle Rock. It was just. Yet another thing he did was write music.

[Josh Clark]

Renaissance Man.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

The other show that he came out with in the 80s, in the mid-80s, that I was big time into was Muppet Babies.

[Josh Clark]

I never saw one second of that.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And I love that show.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. We're just enough apart in age where certain things I saw you were too young for, and then certain things I was too old for.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You know what's weird, though? I'm just gonna say this. So Yumi and I are the same age. Her sister is, like, five years younger than us. And I used to love Muppet Babies.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yumi's sister used to watch Muppet Babies. So Yumi was like, why were you watching Muppet Babies? If my younger sister was watching Muppet Babies?

[Josh Clark]

And Yumi didn't watch Muppet Babies?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No, she watched, like, Donahue or something like that. I watched Muppet Babies. And I'm not ashamed anymore to say.

[Josh Clark]

Well, when 1984, I was 13. So, yeah, I was just. I was starting to be a teenager. Muppet Babies didn't appeal.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think it was on for, like, four or five seasons. So maybe I was watching it at the beginning of the series and Mika was watching it. That's what I've been telling Yumi.

[Josh Clark]

In 84, you would have been, what, eight? Oh, yeah. That's perfect age for Muppet Babies.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So I think. I think we just saw it on different ends of the series is what it was.

[Josh Clark]

Is that what it is?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But have you ever heard of Ron Funches?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, the comedian.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

He has a little bit about Muppet Babies. It's pretty hilarious.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, really? Yeah, he's awesome.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Love that guy. Yeah, we saw him live. He's just a beautiful human being.

[Josh Clark]

Muppet Babies was cartoon, though, right?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

It was not live puppets. Correct. At all.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No, it was cartoon.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

It was so cute.

[Josh Clark]

Were they just the regular Muppets as babies?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, well, I'll have to watch that sometime.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And they, like, use their imagination. Like, Gonzo had a thing for Indiana Jones, so he was frequently, like, exploring caves and, like, swinging on vines with a Indiana Jones fedora on and that kind of stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Well, see, I would probably enjoy that now.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You would? Yeah, definitely.

[Josh Clark]

All right, I'm gonna go get Muppet Babies.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Chuck, he did even more TV that we'll talk about in a second. Okay. Okay. And we're back. And we're still in the 80s.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. And you were talking about other TV. As we said, the man loved television and filmmaking. And so he got away from the Muppets and Puppets every now and then, collaborated with Raymond Scott, who was an electronica pioneer, actually, on shorts called Ripples and Wheels that Go. And he did that for the Montreal Expo in 67.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And I know we're jumping around in time, but we're just trying to paint the full picture here, not going necessarily in order. And then he also did this cool thing called the Floating Face, which was a sketch that was on the Tonight show and the Mike Douglas show in the 60s, which. Did you see any of that?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

A little bit.

[Josh Clark]

It was a little weird. It was like two eyes and a mouth, and there were, like, these invisible wires and background images. And it was definitely a little more on that surreal tip. The Henson surreal tip.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Not kid oriented, necessarily, but he got into the movies with the Muppet movie, which was a big hit.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So good.

[Josh Clark]

It still holds up, man. It's still so great.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

If you want to know more about that movie and just some of the cool facts from it, go again. Listen to the Muppet episode.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

As a matter of fact, pause this. Go listen to the Muppet episode and then come back to this one.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Probably enhance your experience.

[Josh Clark]

Agreed.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Or listen to them both at the same time.

[Josh Clark]

But he followed the Muppet in 1982. He made the Dark Crystal.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Which was puppets. And it was based on some drawings by fantasy artist Brian Froud. And there were no humans. It was all puppets. And I don't think it holds up as well, but it still looks pretty good.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah, I think it actually is probably better received now than it was originally.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think critics appreciated it, but it didn't do so well at the box office. But now it's become like a cult classic, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And one of the reasons why it didn't do well that well at the box office is because audiences didn't quite know what to make of it. They heard Frank Oz, who co directed it, Right. Jim Henson and puppets, and I think they went expecting the Muppet Movie, this is 1982. And they got the Dark Crystal instead, which is really dark. A lot of the, like, the theme is, you know, good versus evil. And it's. The evil in it is really, really evil.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And the stuff that happens to some of the puppets is, including really cute puppets, is really horrifying. And I read this awesome quote by Frank Oz, and basically he says, like, Jim thought it was okay to scare kids. As a matter of fact, he thought it wasn't healthy for kids to never be scared. So, like, he purposefully was trying to scare kids. And he wanted to take the tradition back to, like, Grimm fairy tales, which were very, very dark and graphic.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, that's a good point.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That's what he was going for with the Dark Crystal.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think it was ahead of its time, for sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

If you look at some of these, like, some of the CGI movies today, I think that Dark Crystal was a precursor to a lot of those.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Then he went on to make the movie the Labyrinth with Bowie, Right? Yeah. David Bowie and a very young Jennifer Connelly. No, that was legendary.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay.

[Josh Clark]

Good movie. But this was written by Terry Jones of Monty Python fame and then rewritten a bunch by a bunch of other people, including executive producer George Lucas. Labyrinth was okay. Not bad. Again, not a huge hit for Henson, though, as far as movies go. But he was still out there exploring these cool, fantastical worlds and fantasy worlds.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And he still had a lot of credit, even in the late 80s. If you think about it, his heyday was the late 70s, early 80s with the Muppet Show. The Muppet movies. And then after that, it was like, yeah, I'll try this with Jim Henson. I'll try this with Jim Henson. Yeah. And even. Even still, he had, like, a. He was on a pretty great streak. And at the end of the 80s, he had two TV shows on the Jim Henson Hour.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And Storyteller. The Storyteller.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The Jim hensinghour. He was always pushing the boundaries. The Storyteller, looking back now, or, I'm sorry, Jim hensonhour looking back was really different from what you were getting at the time because it was. It was all over the map. You had certain shows that were like, you Know, four or five sketches in one, and then three of the episodes were full on one hour. Little mini movies.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, really?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. From beginning to end, Louis. Yeah, that's a good point. Actually, one of the little mini movies was called Dog City, which was great. It was narrated by Rolf, and it was. I remember watching this. It was like a film noir gangster thing with puppet dogs. And the main character, Ace U. Was the guy who did Elmo. Kevin Clash did the character of Ace U. And that was fantastic. I think Dog City went on to be a TV show in its own right, too, for a little while. But it was really good. I mean, it's total, like, gangster crime, film noir, but it's, you know, Rolf the Dog and the gang.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I love Rolf.

[Josh Clark]

It's really cool.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

The storyteller I hadn't seen before, I was, I guess, aware of. But I don't know why I wasn't watching it, because it would have been, like, right there for me.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Because I would have been 12 in 1988, but I watched one today, and it was really good. It's like human puppet interaction.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Which is. And it's just seamless. Like, there's one of the things from studying this that I've realized is, like, we take for granted and expect our puppet human interactions to be so seamless that we don't even realize that we're looking at puppets right then. And the reason why we expect that is because of Jim Henson and the people he worked with and inspired to work so hard at creating that illusion.

[Josh Clark]

Well, yeah, the illusion that these are living, breathing things. He would go. I remember Kermit as guest on talk shows. He wouldn't go out as Jim Henson. He would go out as. I mean, he did those appearances as well. But Kermit the Frog would be a guest on the Tonight show with Johnny Carson.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Or host.

[Josh Clark]

Or host. Guest host the Tonight show and Larry King. Yeah. And it was all a part of this goal of making these real people or real living things, not people.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Apparently somebody who was working with Jim Henson was, I guess, a director of the Muppet show would be giving Jim notes on Kermit, and Jim would just respond. Like, let Kermit respond.

[Josh Clark]

That would freak me out.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And the director said, eventually, you're just sitting there, you turn and you address Kermit. Like, he just force you into, like, interacting with the puppet. Even, like, during a note session.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And probably without feeling silly or stupid or anything, you know, it probably seemed like a totally normal thing to do.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Eventually, once he forced you to do it.

[Josh Clark]

He also pioneered the Henson performance control system and won an Academy Award for that. And that was a remote control system that helped puppeteers out. So he was always pushing technical, visual, stylistic, thematic boundaries as far as he could, and they didn't always work. You know, the movies weren't. Aside from the Muppet Movie, they weren't the biggest hits. The TV show, a couple. You know, neither one of those lasted very long, but I think he was just intent on doing something different.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And he did, too. And he died in 1990 of a staph infection. Organ failure brought on by a staph infection. Did you know that?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I think pneumonia had something to do with it, too, didn't it?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Not that I saw.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, really?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I saw organ failure caused by a group. A strep infection. I'm sorry. Not staph.

[Josh Clark]

Very sad. And if you're ever in the mood for a good cry, watch the Jim Henson Memorial, where Big Bird sings. It's not easy being green. Yeah, tough stuff, people. His children, his legacy lives on through. In 1993, Jane, his wife, founded the Jim Henson Legacy to preserve his contributions, share them with the public. And like I said, he donated 500 puppets to the center of Puppetry Arts. And there is also the Jim Henson Memorial and Muppet Museum and traveling exhibits. And his sons and daughters help run his foundation. And some of them are puppets themselves and run the company.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

The company has changed hands a lot. I have sort of the boring history. When he was still alive, he was gonna sell it to Disney for 150 million.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Because apparently he believed in Disney's commitment to characters, so he thought, like, that would be a good place for the Muppets to live.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And Disney went, whoa. He bought it. Yeah. But he did not get that deal finished. But it turns out 150 million was chump change, because in 2000, his children sold the entire company, including the Sesame street characters, to a German media company for 680 million. And then I believe that company fell on hard times, and they bought it back in 2003 for 84 million. Isn't that crazy?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Wow. The Henson children are smart.

[Josh Clark]

And in between all that, there are various exchanges of percentages of stakes with other companies and rights of certain characters. It's a little dull to go over all of that, but needless to say, they made up pretty well. And eventually, Disney now does. They do own all the Muppet studio.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

They own the Muppets. Apparently, the Henson company sold the rights to the Sesame street characters to Sesame street, which is pretty cool.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And the Jim Henson Creature Shop still builds the Sesame street puppets and Muppets.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it says they sold the rights to the Muppets and Bear and the Big Blue House characters, which I'm not familiar with that one. Nor am I, but Disney wanted. I guess that's sort of the player to be named later that's included in the. In the baseball trade.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right. Man, I'm proud of the Henson kids.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they're great. And I hope we get tweeted about this one from them. They seem pretty great. Brian and Cheryl and the gang. They seem like they're doing right by the dad. And there's other siblings too, and I think they're all involved. Yep, super involved. And sadly, Jane passed away, I think, in 2013 at the age of 78. I would have loved to have seen what kind of work he did later in his life.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah, the fact that he died in 1990, still had, like, a couple of TV shows going.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, 53 years old.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He had a lot of work left in him. If you want to know more about Jim Henson, go listen to our Muppets episode. And while you're looking that up, you can also search Jim Henson on the search [e-mail] and I'll bring up this great article. And since I said search bar, it's time for listener mail.

[Josh Clark]

This is. I'm gonna call this Sophomore. Smart Sophomore. Hey, guys, my name is Matt, and I'm a sophomore in high school. Smart Sophomore. I'm a newer fan in the show, and I listen while I do everything. Just wanted to say the Dark Ages were only dark in Europe. The life expectancy in the Dark Ages is actually a little longer than before, but mostly because there were smaller wars. But things were certainly brighter in the Islamic world. In fact, people in the Middle east were really enlightened during this time. Within about a hundred years, they conquered a lot of new land, including Spain. Also, the Arabic language grew to be the language of philosophy, medicine, and poetry. And Baghdad became the world's center of scholarship. They translated almost all of the famous Greek philosophers work into Arabic. Muslims. Muslims developed algebra to simplify inheritance laws. And they made important strides in trigonometry to help people find a way to Mecca. Architecture grew, too. The Great Mosque in Spain only took roughly a year, while medieval cathedrals took hundreds of years to build.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Wow.

[Josh Clark]

So the Dark Ages weren't that dark. And the Enlightenment came earlier than most think. And that is from Matt.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Thanks, Matt.

[Josh Clark]

That is enlightening stuff, my friend.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Our numerals are Arabic. Yeah, it's true.

[Josh Clark]

We should. We should hit on some more Middle Eastern topics.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Let's do it, man.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

In the meantime, if you want to suggest some Middle Eastern topics for us, you can send us an email to stuffpodcastowstuffworks.com and as always, hang out at our beautiful home on the web. Stuffyou should know.com.

[Josh Clark]

Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite show.