Selects: How the Negro Leagues Worked

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know - "How the Negro Leagues Worked"

Hosts: Josh and Chuck
Release Date: February 22, 2025
Episode Title: How the Negro Leagues Worked
Description: This episode delves into the history, operation, and legacy of the Negro Leagues in American baseball, highlighting the resilience and excellence of African-American players during an era of segregation.

---

1. Introduction to the Negro Leagues

The episode opens with Josh introducing the topic in honor of Black History Month, drawing parallels between the Negro Leagues and other African-American initiatives like the Harlem Globetrotters. He emphasizes the significance of these leagues not only in showcasing athletic prowess but also in fostering black enterprise and overcoming systemic adversity.

Josh [00:59]: "It's also a story, though, of great feats of athleticism and social heroics as well."

2. Historical Context and Early Attempts at Integration

Josh and Chuck begin by setting the stage with a brief overview of American history, addressing the enduring impact of slavery and the subsequent Reconstruction era. They discuss how, despite the end of slavery and constitutional amendments aimed at equality, deep-seated racism persisted, particularly in the realm of professional sports.

Chuck [03:45]: "All you Confederates, you guys are out of power. And as a matter of fact, this power vacuum is perfectly willing to be filled by freed blacks."

3. Early Black Players in Major League Baseball

The conversation shifts to the initial forays of African-American players into Major League Baseball (MLB). They highlight Moses Fleetwood Walker and his brother Welde Walker, who broke barriers in the late 19th century by playing for the Toledo Blue Stockers in 1886.

Josh [09:02]: "In 1867, just a couple of years after the Civil War, there was already baseball."

Despite their talent, the Walkers faced immense prejudice, leading to increased segregation and the eventual exclusion of black players from both major and minor leagues by the 1890s.

Chuck [15:15]: "We can no longer have any black men in our league."

4. Formation and Operation of the Negro Leagues

With segregation firmly in place, African-American players and business owners took matters into their own hands by forming independent leagues. The Negro Leagues emerged as a testament to black entrepreneurship and community spirit. Teams engaged in "barnstorming," traveling extensively to play exhibition games and garner support.

Chuck [19:01]: "These men got together, they formed their own teams, and they did what's called barnstorming."

Rube Foster, a pivotal figure and owner of the Chicago American Giants, is credited with organizing the first official Negro National League in 1920, bringing structure and competitiveness to the leagues.

Josh [22:06]: "Rube Foster was this booster of boundless enthusiasm."

5. The Golden Age of the Negro Leagues

The establishment of the second Negro National League by Gus Greenlee in the 1930s marked the beginning of the Negro Leagues' golden age. Teams like the Homestead Grays dominated the scene, boasting legendary players such as Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, and Buck Leonard.

Josh [37:05]: "The Homestead Grays, for nine consecutive years, won the pennant."

Satchel Paige, arguably the most iconic pitcher of the Negro Leagues, is celebrated for his extraordinary talent and longevity in the sport. His pitching prowess and charismatic personality made him a household name.

Chuck [40:26]: "He was making between 30 and 40 grand a year."

6. Challenges and Decline of the Negro Leagues

Despite their success, the Negro Leagues faced significant challenges, including inconsistent scheduling, inadequate record-keeping, and financial instability exacerbated by the Great Depression. The death of Rube Foster in 1930 dealt a severe blow to the leagues' infrastructure and leadership.

Josh [29:04]: "When he was institutionalized, the league started to falter and fall apart."

7. Breaking the Color Barrier

The integration of MLB, spearheaded by Branch Rickey's strategic signing of Jackie Robinson in 1947, marked a turning point. This monumental event not only shattered the color barrier but also led to the gradual assimilation of Negro League talent into the major leagues. Other pioneering black players soon followed, significantly altering the landscape of professional baseball.

Josh [48:09]: "Branch Rickey was a very puritanical guy. He was an idealist."

The hosts discuss the bittersweet nature of integration: while it dismantled segregation and recognized black excellence on a broader stage, it also contributed to the decline of the Negro Leagues, which had been a vital platform for African-American athletes and entrepreneurs.

Josh [54:39]: "It was great to smash the color barrier but sad that the league that had so much gumption was disappearing."

8. Legacy and Modern Reflections

The episode concludes by reflecting on the enduring legacy of the Negro Leagues. Despite their dissolution, the influence of these leagues persists in today's MLB, where diversity has increased but challenges remain. Contemporary efforts aim to revive interest and participation among African-American communities, ensuring that the spirit of the Negro Leagues continues.

Chuck [56:27]: "There's a big push to try and get baseball going again in black communities, which is awesome."

Josh and Chuck also touch upon the importance of remembering and honoring the contributions of Negro League players, advocating for greater recognition and inclusion in baseball's historical narrative.

Josh [32:58]: "If you want to know more about the Negro leagues, you can type those words in the search bar or visit NegroLeagueBaseball.com."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Josh [00:59]: "It's also a story, though, of great feats of athleticism and social heroics as well."

• Chuck [03:45]: "All you Confederates, you guys are out of power. And as a matter of fact, this power vacuum is perfectly willing to be filled by freed blacks."

• Josh [09:02]: "In 1867, just a couple of years after the Civil War, there was already baseball."

• Chuck [15:15]: "We can no longer have any black men in our league."

• Josh [22:06]: "Rube Foster was this booster of boundless enthusiasm."

• Josh [37:05]: "The Homestead Grays, for nine consecutive years, won the pennant."

• Chuck [40:26]: "He was making between 30 and 40 grand a year."

• Josh [29:04]: "When he was institutionalized, the league started to falter and fall apart."

• Josh [48:09]: "Branch Rickey was a very puritanical guy. He was an idealist."

• Josh [54:39]: "It was great to smash the color barrier but sad that the league that had so much gumption was disappearing."

• Chuck [56:27]: "There's a big push to try and get baseball going again in black communities, which is awesome."

• Josh [32:58]: "If you want to know more about the Negro leagues, you can type those words in the search bar or visit NegroLeagueBaseball.com."

Conclusion

"How the Negro Leagues Worked" offers an insightful exploration into a crucial chapter of American sports history. Through engaging dialogue and thorough research, Josh and Chuck illuminate the resilience, innovation, and profound impact of the Negro Leagues. This episode not only educates listeners about the operational aspects of these leagues but also honors the legacy of the players and entrepreneurs who paved the way for future generations.

---

For More Information:

• Visit: StuffYouShouldKnow.com
• Explore: NegroLeagueBaseball.com
• Additional Reading: "Negro League Baseball 101" on MLB.com

Transcript

[T-Mobile Representative]

With T Mobile. No trendspotter has to deal with trendspotty service because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network. Switch now. Keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service support in 90 plus days device knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption required card has no cash access and expires in six months.

[Autotrader Representative]

Look around, everyone. Every car you see is probably on Autotrader. Like that sleek convertible that turned heads when it picked you up from the airport. Or the custom ride from your favorite van. Life couple on social media. Even that vintage sports car that's tailing you a little too closely. New cars, used cars, electric cars, even flying cars. Well, okay, no flying cars yet, but as soon as those things get invented, they'll be on autotrader. If you see a car you like, it's probably on Autotrader. Don't. That's kind of their thing. Autotrader.

[Josh]

Hey everybody, it's me, Josh. And for this week's select and in honor of Black History Month, I've chosen our 2016 episode on the Negro Leagues. It's a story that follows an arc, a lot like another episode we did on the Harlem Globetrotters, where we have a group of people who are discriminated against. So they went off and formed their own league, their own thing, showed their greatness, and then we're eventually co opted, which left some of the people who'd helped build what they had out in the cold. And it's also a story, though, of great feats of athleticism and social heroics as well. And even if you're not into baseball, I guarantee you'll like this episode. So enjoy.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck brought Bryant, and there's Jerry. And this is stuff you should know.

[Autotrader Representative]

Sportsy edition.

[Josh Clark]

Sportsy. I think really we should err on just the side of history.

[Autotrader Representative]

Well, I even put a note in here. If you don't like sports, listen to this one. Anyway.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Because this is about much more than baseball.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. This is about history and about overcoming adversity.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. Like, it's a very interesting story because. And we'll get into this, but I think People tend to think of the Negro leagues, and that's what this is about. The baseball Negro leagues, which is what they were called.

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Autotrader Representative]

We don't use that word anymore. No, but you call this that because that's what it was.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Autotrader Representative]

You tend to think of it in a certain way, which is only. Yeah, well, baseball was segregated and they couldn't play in the white leagues. And that's awful. Which it is. And was. But there's another side to it, too.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point.

[Autotrader Representative]

Where these men and these business owners were empowered and.

[Josh Clark]

And the players.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. And it's. Yeah, that's just a tease. I just wanted to whet their appetite for people who hate sports.

[Josh Clark]

My appetite. I'm sitting here like, keep going.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So I think we should start with a little bit of history. Right. So just a brief primer of American history. Okay. We'll start with slavery.

[Autotrader Representative]

It's a good place to start.

[Josh Clark]

The transatlantic slave trade.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Built this country.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yep.

[Josh Clark]

And frankly, I'm just going to come out and say it. I think some of the major issues that the United States faces today comes from a lack of accountability for slavery really is contributing to a lot of the inequality and a lot of the strife that we still face today and have faced over the decades.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So you've got slavery, and then you had the end of slavery. You had the Emancipation Proclamation, which a lot of people say, oh, well, that was great. Abraham Lincoln spoke some magic words and freed the slaves and everything was great. Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

It was just perfectly equal after that. Right.

[Josh Clark]

No, no. So it took the Union to win the Civil War to begin to enforce the Emancipation Proclamation in the south and in Texas, apparently, Texas were among the last holdouts, and there was slavery going on in Texas, like, years after the Civil War was over.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. They were just like, we're just not going to pay attention to that.

[Autotrader Representative]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

So the Civil War is fought part of the Union victory of the Civil War was coming into the south and saying, like, all you Confederates, you guys are out of power. And as a matter of fact, the. This power vacuum is perfectly willing to be filled by freed blacks. So go ahead, run for office. Become judges. Become part of the Reconstruction power. And that lasted for a very, very short time. The white Southern former power base who were leading the Confederacy and even ones who weren't necessarily part of the actual Confederate government or even the Confederate army, but just the people like in your town who used to own the sawmill or whatever.

[Autotrader Representative]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

That guy came back in power within a Couple years. And the white Southerners who'd been supplanted when they came back into power, they remembered the black people who had tried to take their positions. And so it got ugly. And so rather than having actual legal slavery, it came in other different, horrible, pernicious forms which came to be called post Reconstruction, the Jim Crow South.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. And boy, we need to do one. I've had it on my list for a while on Jim Crow period.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

How about this? First of all, where'd you get this other good, really good article?

[Josh Clark]

It's on the Major League Baseball website.

[Autotrader Representative]

Was it?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

In the prehistory section of that one. And this is just to show you the tone of things. In 1857, there was a Supreme Court Chief Justice.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Roger Taney, who. It's funny that the way this writer put it, he said he's campaigning hard for a spot in the American Scum hall of Fame.

[Josh Clark]

Like that.

[Autotrader Representative]

Pretty funny. In his official writing, this is the Chief justice of the Supreme Court said Negroes were so far inferior to whites that they had no rights, which a white man was bound to respect. This is the Chief justice of the Supreme Court. Yeah, I think I need to say that like four more times before it sinks in.

[Josh Clark]

That was two or three.

[Autotrader Representative]

This is what was going on. Despite the Emancipation proclamation, despite the 14th Amendment.

[Josh Clark]

Well, that was actually before it. That was during the time of slavery.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Just to excuse that guy.

[Autotrader Representative]

But after, after that, despite the amendments to the Constitution, despite all of that, it took the. To the 1960s to even begin the slightest bit of real progress.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's true.

[Autotrader Representative]

Not quite true, because history is littered with people who've made advancements, and I.

[Josh Clark]

Don'T want to knock that, but in a systemic manner.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, totally.

[Josh Clark]

You're right. It wasn't until the 60s.

[Autotrader Representative]

But part of the problem too was, and this is a valid point other courts had said like those is Justice Henry Billings Brown said legislation is powerless to eradicate racial instincts or to abolish distinctions based upon physical differences. Basically what he's saying is like, we can create laws, but you're not going to change public's mind by creating laws. You can't, like, abolish prejudice.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And so if white people think that black people are inferior to them, who are we, the government, to say otherwise?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, we're to try maybe and legislate our way out of it, even.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So In, I think, 1896, there was a court case called Plessy vs. Ferguson.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And in Plessy vs. Ferguson, the Supreme Court upheld and legitimized and actually made real the segregation that had already been going on. Right. Ever since Reconstruction or ever since the end of Reconstruction, the beginning of Jim Crow laws. Right. So the United States was officially segregated in 1896, but baseball had actually segregated years before that, but not as far back as people think. And a lot of people think that baseball had always been segregated up until 1946, when Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier.

[Autotrader Representative]

I think 99% of people think that Jackie Robinson was the first black American to play pro baseball, including me.

[Josh Clark]

Until yesterday when we started researching this. Yeah, this already.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. I mean, I'm a big baseball fan and a bit of a student of its history, so I knew.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, so tell him, Chuck.

[Autotrader Representative]

Well, who the guys were specifically.

[Josh Clark]

Well, yeah, so in 1867, I think two years after the Civil War, there was already baseball. Remember, Abner Doubleday created baseball in, what, 1839.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, in, like, 1300.

[Josh Clark]

And that's. But that's a legitimate story. Right. That's not like he really did. He was the inventor of baseball, and it did happen in Cooperstown, New York, and all that. Right?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Autotrader Representative]

I don't know. But was he in Cooperstown?

[Josh Clark]

I believe so.

[Autotrader Representative]

Okay, well, that makes sense.

[Josh Clark]

So within just a couple of decades, there was the national association of Baseball Players. They were the league, right?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. I mean, not within a couple of decades. A couple of years.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, really?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. Like, literally two years after the end of the Civil War, there was an African American team called. I actually don't know what their name was, but they were out of Philadelphia, and they said, we want to join your league, which was the national association of Baseball Players at the time. And they were rejected as a team, of course, at the time. But that didn't mean that there were not players individually.

[Josh Clark]

Right. That's a huge caveat.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. It was a little bit later, in 1886, finally, and not for too long. We had two brothers, Moses Fleetwood Walker and Welde Walker and Moses.

[Josh Clark]

Who do they play for?

[Autotrader Representative]

The Toledo Blue Stockers.

[Josh Clark]

That's right, baby. My hometown integrated baseball team in the 1880s.

[Autotrader Representative]

You were totally right. Moses was. He was older. He played 42 games for the team. Well, they only came along and played in six games. Moses hit.263 that season. And they were the son of a physician, like the first black physician in Toledo.

[Josh Clark]

Nice.

[Autotrader Representative]

And went to college, played baseball at Oberlin in Michigan. So I know the Wolverines. I didn't know Oberlin even had sports.

[Josh Clark]

Well, this is the 19th century. I think they phased him out.

[Autotrader Representative]

Phased him out in favor of debate. Acoustic guitars and debate. I know a lot of people that went to Oberlin, weirdly.

[Josh Clark]

Really?

[Autotrader Representative]

Well, my good friend Robert Shahadi from Boston that you met that came to our show, Lucy Wainwright went to Oberlin. Didn't know that David Reese really went to Oberlin.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Autotrader Representative]

And I feel like a couple of other people. Yeah, it's got a nice reputation.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Great name, too.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oberlin.

[Josh Clark]

Oberlin.

[Autotrader Representative]

It sounds Ivy League.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Oberlin.

[Autotrader Representative]

The sound of quality Oberlin sounds Ivy League. Ish.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Autotrader Representative]

That's on their T shirts. Although we do need to give a shout out. There was One guy in 1879, William Edward White, who substituted and played one game.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Who was officially. And this is a little murky history wise, because we don't know much about him or how it happened, but supposedly he played one game as a professional baseball player, as a black man.

[Josh Clark]

Is that right?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And this is when.

[Autotrader Representative]

1879.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. So the Walker brothers are playing for Toledo in 1886, right?

[Autotrader Representative]

Correct.

[Josh Clark]

And actually this article on how stuff works gets it wrong. Says that they just played for the team for one year before the team went under. That's not the case. As a matter of fact, Moses Walker, they may have only played together on the team for that one year. Moses Walker had played for years before them. And actually Moses Walker. And there were several other players at the time in 1886 and 87, there were at least four black players in the minors. But the Walker brothers were playing for Toledo, which was a major league team, Right?

[Autotrader Representative]

Correct.

[Josh Clark]

But the presence of Moses Walker actually brought to the fore this kind of simmering resentment and kind of the big elephant in the room. There's a black guy on your team, Right. What are you guys doing? And so Toledo actually went to go play the White Sox in Chicago. And the White Sox had this, like, their great player of that season, I think, in 1884. Who was it? Cap Anson.

[Autotrader Representative]

Great nicknames back then.

[Josh Clark]

So Cap Anson said he said some horrible things and ultimately was like, I'm not playing if that man's on the field.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And Moses Walker was actually injured and still was like, oh, well, I'm definitely going on the field today anyway.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So he dressed out and I'm not sure if he actually played in the game, but he was like part of the team. And Cap Anson was not indulged. Toledo was like, we're not taking our guy out. He's one of our players. So Cap Anson can go Suck an egg. And Camp Anson went and sucked an egg. He was really mad. But the issue that day, that dispute at Comiskey Field, brought to the fore the concept of integration and ultimately segregation among Major League baseball teams. And it actually increased the pressure among owners and managers to get rid of the black players, not just in the majors, but in the minors.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, there was another player too. I read another story about. And we'll get to Roy Campanella. He was a. He was better than Jackie Robinson at the time. A catcher who was just amazing. Hall of Famer. And he had a. There was a white pitcher. It was like, you know, he was a great catcher, but I didn't want to play with him. So I would. When I pitched to him, I would just ignore his signs and threw whatever I want. Like to his own detriment and to the team's detriment. He. He just wouldn't take the signs.

[Josh Clark]

What a putz.

[Autotrader Representative]

I know. Career sabotage, essentially. Yeah, I don't think he lasted long either. And Campanella's in the hall of Fame, so he can.

[Josh Clark]

Right. The other guy, who knows.

[Autotrader Representative]

I want to give these names all out though. The four black men and the miners in 1866. Besides Moses Walker, we had Bud Fowler, Frank Grant and George Stovey. And as far as I'm concerned, all these dudes are American heroes. So all of a sudden, they succumbed to pressure in 1890, after hate mail and death threats to coaches and managers and umpires and, you know, basically everybody, the players themselves. And they said, you know what? We're gonna shut it down officially in 1890. We can no longer have any black men in our league.

[Josh Clark]

So here's the thing. They never officially did that. They had the minor league ban, black players. And the way into the major leagues was through the minors.

[Autotrader Representative]

Well, and it was never on the rule books either. It was an unofficial non gentleman's agreement. Because eventually when it was broken, it wasn't like a rule was broken.

[Josh Clark]

Right, right.

[Autotrader Representative]

It was just an unwritten rule.

[Josh Clark]

Right, exactly. Which paved the way for Branch Ricky to break the unbroken rule without actually breaking a rule.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, good point. Chuck. You want to take a break?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Katherine Legge]

Learning stuff with Joshua.

[Josh Clark]

Stuff you should do.

[Osvaldo Shin]

You're a details person. Checking reviews, reading nutritional info, even terms and conditions. So when donating, check out GiveWell, an independent resource offering rigorous, transparent research on top of giving opportunities. Their recent analysis of cash transfers in Africa includes over 300 footnotes. Perfect for meticulous readers. For 17 years, GiveWell has researched charities directing funding to the highest impact options. Over 125,000 donors have used GiveWell to contribute more than $2 billion, saving an estimated 200,000 lives. GiveWell's research is free, helping donors make informed decisions. Donations to recommended funds are tax deductible, and GiveWell takes no cut. If you've never used GiveWell to donate, you can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last. To claim your match, go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter Stuff you should Know at checkout. Make sure they know that you heard about GiveWell from Stuff youf Should Know to get your donation matched again. That's givewell.org to donate or find out more.

[Katherine Legge]

Why did the Godfather of AI warn that the very thing he helped create now has a 10 to 20% chance of leading to human extinction in the next three decades? And what did he learn from losing his wife to cancer about how to approach the future of AI? I'm Osvaloshin, host of Tech Stuff, and I'm so excited to share this memorable and intimate conversation with Nobel laureate Jeffrey Hinton. Listen to Tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Hey you guys, I'm Katherine Legge. I'm a racing driver who's literally driven everything with four wheels across the planet, and I've got a new podcast, it's called Throttle Therapy. This season I'm gearing up to make history, competing in some of the world's most notorious racing events, starting at the Indy 500. Join me as I travel from racetrack to racetrack in my quest to continue I a memorable career in racing. I'm also going to bring you inside stories with legends of sports, new faces from the next generation of auto racing, and conversations with the people who've supported me throughout my career. We'll be getting into everything from karting to nascar, even Formula one. Whether you dream about being a pro athlete or an astronaut, we're talking about what it takes to make it. Listen to Throttle Therapy with Catherine Legge, an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Autotrader Representative]

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.

[Josh Clark]

All right man, so 1890, it's now there are there are no black players resegregated in Major League Baseball or Minor League Baseball in America, right?

[Autotrader Representative]

That's Right.

[Josh Clark]

That actually paved the way for one of the great unsung chapters in baseball history, which was the creation of the Negro Leagues.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. And a true show of American spirit and determination and just love of the game. These men got together, they formed their own teams, and they did what's called barnstorming.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Which is pretty awesome.

[Autotrader Representative]

And they would load up in cars on a bus, and they would go from town to town and take their show on the road, and they would get a game up wherever they could, and wherever people would pay a couple of pennies to come watch a baseball game. They were playing white players in these barnstorming games. Or black players. Or Latino players.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because that's a definite overlooked segment of the early baseball history are Latino players.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, totally.

[Josh Clark]

And one of the cool things about the Negro leagues is they were integrated. They had Latino teams, like the Cuban Kings out of New York, I believe.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yep. And one white guy.

[Josh Clark]

All right.

[Autotrader Representative]

So barnstorming's going on. Like I said, they would roll into town, they would play whatever teams they could play, and it started to gain some momentum. Like, people started to follow these players.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

And they actually got fans. And there was a former player named Andrew Rube Foster, who owned one of those teams, and he said, you know what? I think we need our own league. They won't let us in their league. Let's start our own. Because besides the fact that people want it, there's money to be made here.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And as a matter of fact, so this barnstorming thing, I want to talk a little more about that. Right.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

One of the reasons barnstorming came about was to make ends meet, but it was also because these teams had to figure out a way to put on games as cheaply as possible.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

All of the stadiums at the time were owned by whites, and the whites apparently were not very friendly to the idea of black teams playing in their fields. So if it were just like black teams playing one another, the white owners of the fields would just charge an exorbitant amount. These guys were going basically anywhere they could find a place that would stand still long enough for them to play a baseball game on. That's what they would play. And they play, like, three games a day.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Every day. And they all traveled together and, like, hung out with one another and spent a lot of time together. So, like, the Negro Leagues came out of this kind of camaraderie of barnstorming together.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Which is pretty awesome.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, it's very cool.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, this guy Rube Foster, he owned the Chicago American Giants. And confusingly, there was also another Negro team called the Chicago giants and the St. Louis giants. Yeah, yeah, but Chicago. Yeah, but if it was Chicago versus Chicago, well, which one? The Giants. Well, which one?

[Autotrader Representative]

The American Giants.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. Now I understand not just the Giants, but Rube Foster was like this, this booster of boundless enthusiasm. This guy literally put together the first real Negro league.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And when he was basically removed from it, the whole. The whole thing fell apart. That's how much of a driver this guy was.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, he's in the hall of Fame too.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he was a catcher, I think.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, I don't even think he was in as a player, but he was a form. Yeah. I think just for his achievement.

[Josh Clark]

I gotcha.

[Autotrader Representative]

Although he may have been both, I don't know. But in 1920, he said, all right, here's what we'll do. Let me get these seven team owners of the Midwestern League that are doing these barnstorming traveling shows. Basically, let's get together in Kansas City. Seven all black teams. In addition to those two Chicago Giants, we have the Cuban Stars, the Dayton Marcos, the Indianapolis ABCs, and the very famous Kansas City Monarchs and St. Louis Giants all. And this is the really great thing about the story. All of these teams, except for the Monarchs were black owned teams.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So. So not only do you have black players careers developing.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You have like black enterprise developing in a time when there were very few avenues of opportunity for black people to advance in business. Yeah. In a sense, where they own the business, this is a really good way to do it.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. And not only that, like the Major League Baseball site points out, like, this was like, it should be embraced in some ways because this at a time was the only, one of the only ways that minorities could fully, like, excel to their fullest potential.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Yeah. And that was a point of that article that I thought was pretty cool. Is that one of the things they lamented about the segregation of baseball during this time is that we'll never know how Babe Ruth would have stood up against Satchel Paige pitching to him because they never got to play each other. So the truly great players are truly great during this time within their own skin color.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You know, you can't say they were the greatest in baseball because there were two legitimate parallel leagues going on at the time. And yeah, they played each other sometimes, but if you wanted to sit down and put stats against stats, you'd be very hard pressed to do that.

[Autotrader Representative]

Right? Sure. Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Christie Matheson like, we know they were good. Like, we're not knocking their talent, but who knows what it would have been like in a truly integrated league.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And actually, it's funny you bring up Ty Cobb, because I was like, oh, yeah, Ty Cobb was a huge racist. I wonder what he thought about the Negro Leagues. And I looked it up, and I found an article from a guy who argues that Ty Cobb was not the horrible racist that he's made out to be these days.

[Autotrader Representative]

Written by Jimmy Cobb.

[Josh Clark]

He found. Well, he actually did cite his son, and I think his son's name might be Jim.

[Autotrader Representative]

Really?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, wow.

[Josh Clark]

But the guy found an article from maybe the 50s or something, 1952, where Ty Cobb is quoted at length coming out in favor of integration into baseball. Yeah. Saying, like, of course these guys should play. As long as, you know, they conduct themselves like professional baseball players. Like, why would they not be able to play? I'm totally in favor of it.

[Autotrader Representative]

Interesting.

[Josh Clark]

Like, did Ty Cobb say this?

[Autotrader Representative]

I think that bears more research.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

You know, because he was supposedly very racist.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. That's not what this guy says.

[Autotrader Representative]

All right, well, I'm going to look into that.

[Josh Clark]

That's not what his son says.

[Autotrader Representative]

I'm not doubting you, of course. I just want to.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. No, I'm with you. I understand.

[Autotrader Representative]

So we talked about the integration of the Negro Leagues, which is awesome. Pretty soon, other leagues form, not just. There was one right here in the south, the Negro Southern League, with teams from right here in Atlanta.

[Josh Clark]

Dude, do you know the Atlanta team.

[Autotrader Representative]

Played directly across the street, Ponce de Leon Park?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Where there's now a Staples and a Home Depot and a petsmart and a Whole Foods. Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

How, like, funny is that?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. If you walk into Whole Foods and listen, you can hear the ghost of a bat cracking on a ball.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. This. I don't think this was the first team in Atlanta that played in the Negro Southern League because they folded that same year. But the Atlanta Black Crackers. We also had the Atlanta Crackers, which was the white team. We had the Atlanta Black Crackers. And it sounds funny that we say Ponce de Leon, not Ponce de Leon, but that's how we say it here. It's the street that fronts our office building.

[Josh Clark]

Ponce de Leon himself would have punched you in the stomach if he heard you say his name like that, though.

[Autotrader Representative]

But that's the street in Atlanta that fronts our office. And if you go and look on the Internet, you can see these awesome pictures of this cool little baseball stadium right there, hundreds of feet from where we sit.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Really neat.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

And now you have Whole Foods.

[Josh Clark]

You just have to listen closely.

[Autotrader Representative]

Go pay $7 for artisan mayonnaise.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. If you're lucky. $7.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, that's just for the.

[Josh Clark]

Just for one smear.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. Just one spoon.

[Josh Clark]

Did you hear? Whole Foods got caught, like, with uncalibrated scales for their hot bar stuff.

[Autotrader Representative]

Like it's not already expensive enough.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. That's crazy. I expect a lot more from them.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. You know, never get anything with bones at one of those.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, never. Or liquid.

[Autotrader Representative]

What a waste.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

You throw half of that chicken leg away.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

You paid for it.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Autotrader Representative]

Or just, you know, grind that chicken bone up and eat it and get your money's worth.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Like, peel it off with your teeth, spit the meat into your. Into your little basket, and throw the bone back into the hot bar.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. Oh, I didn't think about that. Sure. That's a great idea.

[Josh Clark]

Then you can say, I'm no chump.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. Just go around screaming, not paying for that bone. All right, so where are we? The Negro Southern League folded. The Eastern Colored league opened in 1923. And then finally, in 1928, the American Negro League formed. And that was. That was when things like they. They called eventually the American Negro League and the American. I'm sorry, the National Negro League. The majors of the Negro Leagues.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Autotrader Representative]

Like, that was where the. The creme de la creme played.

[Josh Clark]

And the. Everything's going pretty smoothly except two things happen. Right. There was even, like, a Negro League World Series. It was a best of nine. The Kansas City.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, was it really?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The Kansas City Monarchs narrowly beat the Hildale team. They're from Darby, Pennsylvania, which I guess is near Philadelphia, in the first one in 1924. So there's, like, there's a. There's. These leagues have established themselves by 1924. They have their own World Series going, Right? Yeah. But just within a few years, there are a couple of hits to the league that ultimately led to the. The Negro majors disbanding. One is that Rube Foster suffered gas poisoning in a hotel room. Yeah. In a hotel room in Indianapolis. He was found unconscious.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And there's some theory that, like, everyone believed in ghosts and spirits and mediums in the 19th century because they were all being poisoned by the natural gas that was, like, leaking into their kitchens and homes all the time. Right. Well, this guy had, like, an acute poisoning and was found unconscious. And after that, when he regained consciousness and was nursed back to health, he lost his mind and he Just kept getting worse and worse. And by 1925, I think this happened. In 1924, 1925, he was institutionalized. And by 1930, he died of a heart attack at age 51. And again, his guidance was so integral in this first incarnation of the Negro Leagues that when he was institutionalized, obviously they weren't like, well, what does the league do next? He was in an institution and the league started to falter and fall apart. And eventually that coupled with the Depression. The onset of the Depression really kind of led to the unraveling of the first Negro League.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. And the Major League Baseball site, you know, these were. They profited on certain days of the week. Sundays were big days because they were played double headers. But the fact is, black Americans didn't have a lot of expendable money to throw at going to baseball games, even though they're, you know, pretty cheap. That was commensurate with what people made at the time.

[Josh Clark]

Unless you were one of the Walker brothers, whose dad was a physician.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, they probably had a little money, sure.

[Josh Clark]

But they were playing, so I'm sure their parents got in for free.

[Autotrader Representative]

Probably so.

[Josh Clark]

So it's all just a moot point.

[Autotrader Representative]

I wonder if they did get free family tickets back then.

[Josh Clark]

I would hope so. That's gotta be as old as tickets, right?

[Autotrader Representative]

Probably.

[Josh Clark]

We gotta do an episode on tickets.

[Autotrader Representative]

Guest list. So they were making a little money on Sundays. They weren't hugely profitable overall, even though they were known as somewhat successful.

[Josh Clark]

No, a lot of these guys were still barnstorming on their off days.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. And these are the players, you know, trying to make ends meet. Like, the owners, them were struggling here and there. White people came to see games sometimes, especially when they were exhibition games against white teams, because they loved to go out there and see something they had never seen before, which many times was the black team mopping the floor with the white team. Although it seemed pretty evenly matched, like, from what I gathered, it wasn't, like, lopsided one way or the other. Like, they were good competitive games.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. There are plenty of white players who are better than the black players, and there are plenty of black players who are better than white players.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I would say evenly matched is a good way to put it.

[Autotrader Representative]

So if you had an integrated league, you would get the best of both, which is eventually what we got.

[Josh Clark]

Plus, also, in some of these cities, Chuck, they were not just baseball was segregated, but just within the city. You had a white team and you had a black team. And that's evidenced in the names of some of the black teams like the Black Crackers or the Black Yankees. There were the Yankees and then there were the Crackers.

[Autotrader Representative]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

So if you were a white player or a white person, you're probably a fan of the white team and you weren't going and watching the black teams play.

[Autotrader Representative]

Right. So they list out four things here on the site. They say the two leagues, the American and National Negro Leagues, were northern and basically city dwelling teams. Couple that with. There weren't a lot of black people living in northern cities at the time. The south was. Was way more. Well, I want to say integrated, but it wasn't integrated. Way more black people living in the south at the time.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Which is. I wonder why the Southern Negro League didn't take off like a rocket then.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, I mean, probably for the other reasons, like you couldn't afford to go to the games and all that stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Autotrader Representative]

Black people that were in the north didn't have a whole lot of money. And so basically all that adds up to not a lot of audience buying tickets. And the only way to keep a league afloat is to sell tickets and to sell concessions. Same as it is today.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

So all those things coupled with Rube Foster and the Depression, their greatest champion and probably sharpest mind, sadly succumbing to mental illness and then the Depression. And that was the end of the beginning of the Negro Leagues, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that was the end of the first one.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

And there were more to come. And we'll talk about it right after this.

[Katherine Legge]

Learning stuff with Joshua's stuff you should do. Why did the godfather of AI warn that the very thing he helped create now has a 10 to 20% chance of leading to human extinction in the next three decades? And what did he learn from losing his wife to cancer about how to approach the future of AI? I'm Osvar Loschen, host of Tech Stuff, and I'm so excited to share this memorable and intimate conversation with Nobel laureate Geoffrey Hinton. Listen to Tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Hey, you guys, I'm Katherine Legge. I'm a racing driver who's literally driven everything with four wheels across the planet. And I've got a new podcast, it's called called Throttle Therapy. This season, I'm gearing up to make history, competing in some of the world's most notorious racing events, starting at the Indy 500. Join me as I travel from racetrack to racetrack in my quest to Continue a memorable career in racing. I'm also going to bring you inside stories with legends of sports, new faces from the next generation of auto racing, and conversations with the people who've supported me throughout my career. We'll be getting into everything from karting to nascar, even Formula One. Whether you dream about being a pro athlete or an astronaut, we're talking about what it takes to make it. Listen to Throttle Therapy with Katherine Legg, an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Autotrader Representative]

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of.

[Jon Stewart]

Iheart Women's Sports, Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondence and contributors. And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Autotrader Representative]

All right, so it didn't take long. The old saying, you can't keep a good man down. People wanted to play baseball. They were good at it. They thought there was more money to be made in leagues. And so what happens is these numbers guys get involved.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

And a numbers man is the numbers game was basically like an illegal, unsanctioned street lottery.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Autotrader Representative]

So numbers guys had a lot of money, and some of them said, you know what? Let's put money into starting baseball teams and leagues.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

And one guy in particular in Pittsburgh, Gus Greenlee, great name, he was a bar owner in Pittsburgh. He bought the Pittsburgh Crawfords in 1931. He said, well, I've got a team, but I don't have a league. So two years later, he formed the second Negro National League, and other numbers guys bought in, and all of a sudden, they had another league going.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And this basically kicked off what's known as the golden age of the Negro Leagues.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Starting about 1931, 32, 33, when. When these other teams came about and Greenlee's team himself, was it his? No, I'm sorry. It would have been right across the river. The Homestead Grays.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. They eventually migrated back to Pittsburgh.

[Josh Clark]

Did they?

[Autotrader Representative]

Over to Pittsburgh? Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So they were the same team that went from one town to another. They weren't rivals?

[Autotrader Representative]

No. I think there was still the other Pittsburgh team, but from what I understand, the Homestead Grays eventually became part of Pittsburgh.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Autotrader Representative]

Or maybe there was another team. I'm not sure. But I do know they eventually went.

[Josh Clark]

To Pittsburgh because, you know, Homestead, we've been there. We did a show there.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Autotrader Representative]

And I was like, are we going to the right place? When the car was taking me.

[Josh Clark]

So Homestead used to have not just a team, they used to have the best Negro League team possibly ever.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, yeah, easy.

[Josh Clark]

For nine consecutive years, they won the pennant, right?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, nine years in a row. Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell and Buck Leonard, Some of their stars.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, just some of them. In 1935, they had no less than five future hall of Famers on the team. Five?

[Autotrader Representative]

That's amazing.

[Josh Clark]

Point to a team that has five future hall of Famers on it now or ever did.

[Autotrader Representative]

Well, some of the Yankees teams did over the years, but, like, I don't think anything right now. Oh, yeah, now, like, even the best team right now doesn't have five future hall of Famers.

[Josh Clark]

Certainly not the Braves.

[Autotrader Representative]

No, we don't have one.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. I could see Freddie Freeman hitting the hall of Fame one day. Oh, really? I haven't been watching the last couple seasons. No.

[Autotrader Representative]

I mean, he's our best player, but come on, Freddie. The best player on the worst team in baseball. Not very good.

[Josh Clark]

Casey at the bat.

[Autotrader Representative]

All right, so we did mention that there were exhibition games going on, and things really picked up with exhibition games now because they were a little well funded. And this is when white players would come and see the teams playing. I mean, it was basically more popular than ever in both communities.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. And we said that they had the. The Negro League World Series going on, right? Yeah. There was actually another game that came out of this. I think it was. It might have been Gus Greenlee, I think it was. Who came up with. It was the east versus West All Stars game.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And that became bigger than the World Series ever was in the Negro League.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, it was huge.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So that became kind of like the de facto big game of the year rather than the World Series for them. And they played it every year, I think, in Comiskey Field.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, really?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, in Chicago, because, you know, east meet west in Chicago.

[Autotrader Representative]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

That's what it says on the T shirts at least.

[Autotrader Representative]

So players are starting to make some. Like the top players are starting to make some pretty good money at the time. You can't go any further without talking about Satchel Page. Leroy Satchel Page. He was a pitcher, very interesting dude.

[Josh Clark]

Maybe the greatest pitcher of all time in the sport of baseball.

[Autotrader Representative]

Maybe he was eccentric. He was an entertainer.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he was like the Usain Bolt of his day. People loved him.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, okay.

[Josh Clark]

Except he didn't like to run. That would make it a little different.

[Autotrader Representative]

Even said he didn't like to run.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

What was his quote?

[Josh Clark]

He said that training for me is rising gently from the bench back onto the bench.

[Autotrader Representative]

So he had. Have you ever seen video or I guess, you know, film of him pitching?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. With those old timey baggy baseball pants.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, that was the style. But his, he had a weird wind up. He had this sort of double windmill that he would do with his pitching arm. And then when he was younger he had a great fastball and he had, he was noted for his control, like Greg Maddox, like, and his pinpoint control.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Like supposedly could just put a baseball then a half inch of where he wanted it to be, which is big, big deal for a pitcher.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Autotrader Representative]

As he lost his fastball over the years, he learned basically every pitch under the sun. Like he pitched until he was 59 years old.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he first, he first signed in the majors. White majors. At 42.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. 42 year old rookie.

[Josh Clark]

He's the oldest rookie ever in Major League baseball and I think the oldest pitcher ever.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, he was even older than Gaylord Perry.

[Josh Clark]

How old was he?

[Autotrader Representative]

He was in his 40s. Oh, was he like Nolan Ryan, Gaylord Perry, A few pictures.

[Josh Clark]

Nolan Ryan made it to 50.

[Autotrader Representative]

No, not 50, but he came close. Like pictures notably have been a little older, which is crazy because like their arms. Yeah, but they're not, you know, they're not like running around and batting like other players.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, but you're right, like Freddie Freeman.

[Autotrader Representative]

Like the stress on, the stress on the arm is amazing.

[Josh Clark]

So one thing that was problematic or is problematic when you're going back and looking at the Negro leagues, is that a lot of teams were allowed to, depending on the league, were allowed to set their own schedules. Yeah. Stats weren't kept quite as well as they were in the white leagues.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. We don't know Satchel Page's real lifetime stats.

[Josh Clark]

No, but in full, there are some estimates.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And they are high.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So one that I saw is that Satchel Page had. I think it was in this, this article on MLB.com, which eventually will say the author's name. Right?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

They said that he had 300 career shutouts. 300 career shutouts. And this guy says in italics, not wins. Yeah, Shutouts, Right.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. If you don't know baseball, shutout means you have pitched a game where no one scored a run.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Autotrader Representative]

And back then there were probably complete game shutouts, meaning he never came out and was relieved by another pitcher.

[Josh Clark]

Right. He would have pitched like all nine.

[Autotrader Representative]

Innings back in the day. They used to do that. Way more than they do now.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, so he had 300 career shutouts, 1500 wins is the estimate that's on MLB.com yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

To put that into perspective for non baseball fans, again, if you have 300.

[Josh Clark]

Wins wins, not shutouts wins, then you're.

[Autotrader Representative]

A Hall of Famer.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

And in fact, they don't think there will ever be another 300 game winner again because of there are more pitchers in the rotation now. They usually have five guys instead of four. They don't pitch as deep into games. They rest them a lot more. So it's just we may not ever see that happen again just because of the way it's built.

[Josh Clark]

To also put it in perspective, Cy Young is regarded as one of the best pitchers ever in Major League baseball.

[Autotrader Representative]

They named the top award after him.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. He had 76 shutouts, which is amazing. He had the most wins ever still in Major league baseball at 5:11. So Satchel Page had conceivably three times more wins than the. The. The highest win count ever in major league.

[Autotrader Representative]

And that's counting his entire career, I.

[Josh Clark]

Assume, which again was very, very long. Sure, it was a very long career, but that just makes it all the more amazing, especially as he gets older.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. Like, let's say that people don't say, don't count the Negro leagues as being in the top league at the time. Like, cut it in half. And he's still way ahead of everybody else. If you subtract 50% of everything he did.

[Josh Clark]

And the fact that he sat in a rocking chair in the dugout and had like a huge personality, it's just awesome.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. So he learned all sorts of pitches. By the end of his career, he was pitching knuckleballs. And he was famous for the hesitation pitch, which he invented, which was when he got to the white major leagues. They were like, that's illegal. You can't do that. It's called a balk.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

And he was like, all right.

[Josh Clark]

Well, no, he's like, no, it's called a hesitation pitch. Don't.

[Autotrader Representative]

You know, it was very sneaky. You know, it's like you act like you're pitching, then you stop and because his theory, he was like, you know, I got guys up there that are starting to swing because I'm so fast. Like, when they see me winding up, they're starting to swing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

So if I just put a little slight pause there, then they're swinging and then the ball comes. So it was very, very tricky little pitch. And he was making between 30 and 40 grand a year. And the Negro, and this is also with appearances and stuff like that, but in the Negro Leagues, which is about half a million dollars today.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Amazing amount of money at the time.

[Josh Clark]

You know, and those appearances, if you were a team owner that had Satchel Paige on your team, you might let him go, make some scratch and probably take a cut yourself by lending him to another team whose attendance was struggling. And all you had to do was advertise for a week that Satchel Paige was going to be pitching one day and you would sell out. So he would help other Negro League teams that were. That were struggling.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. To be a draw.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

And here's one little cool thing about our own Atlanta Braves. In 1968, Satchel Page was lacking one more season to get his Major League baseball pension and was out of the league and retired. And the Atlanta Braves signed him as a player coach.

[Josh Clark]

Like Terry Pendleton.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. He was never a player coach, was he?

[Josh Clark]

No, but he was a player and then a coach.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, oh, yeah. Pete Rose was a player coach.

[Josh Clark]

Was he really?

[Autotrader Representative]

Like, he managed the Reds and played for them.

[Josh Clark]

I didn't know that.

[Autotrader Representative]

And bet on them.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

But they signed him to a one year deal so he could get his Major League baseball pension.

[Josh Clark]

That is awesome.

[Autotrader Representative]

Which is a really cool classic.

[Josh Clark]

What year was that?

[Autotrader Representative]

1968.

[Josh Clark]

That's really cool.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Go Brave.

[Autotrader Representative]

So if you see a picture, when I saw a picture of him in the Braves uniform, I was like, wait a minute. He never played for the Braves. And he really didn't. It was sort of, you know, just a little sneaky way to get him in there.

[Josh Clark]

That's cool.

[Autotrader Representative]

Which is great. All right, so Satchel Page is killing it. Other players are killing. Would not be long before somebody in the white leagues, somebody said the talent is too good. Somebody has to be the first to make this move and break the color barrier.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, right. That was the thing. The Negro Leagues were ultimately, as we'll find out, victims of their own success. The players that they supported and brought into the game were of obvious major league caliber.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

In any major league, they were the best in the world. They were just playing on segregated teams and so finally, a group of people, but especially it usually comes in the form of one guy named Branch Rickey.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Did Tom Hanks play him?

[Autotrader Representative]

No.

[Josh Clark]

Harrison Ford?

[Autotrader Representative]

No. Maybe. Well, I didn't see the most recent Jackie Robinson movie. Was it Harrison Ford?

[Josh Clark]

Maybe.

[Autotrader Representative]

I've seen him portrayed in other movies.

[Josh Clark]

I can't tell if it was him or not because the actor didn't have a diamond studded earring in. But Harrison Ford could have taken it out for the role. This guy named Branch Rickey, was he an executive or a manager for the Dodgers?

[Autotrader Representative]

He was with. He was an executive with the Dodgers.

[Josh Clark]

And he said. And this was when they were in Brooklyn, right?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

He said, this is ridiculous. We need to break this color barrier. There's plenty of great players out there that I want to sign. I'm going to break this unspoken rule. And he looked around to find a player who was not only good, but who he felt could withstand this horrendous reception that whoever the first black player would be would definitely receive. And who did receive. And he found it in the person of Jackie Robinson.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. That's a huge point because like I said, Roy Campanello was probably a better player at the time than Jackie Robinson. But if you see the Jackie Robinson story, I didn't see the recent one, like I said, but I just know a lot about his story. He was the right guy. He had the temperament, he had the leadership.

[Josh Clark]

Roy Campanella would take your head off.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, he did. He was a tough guy. But Jackie Robinson was the man in every way. And we should also shout out to the road being paved by people like Joe Lewis and Jesse Owens before Jackie Robinson, as far as just white America accepting mainstream black athletes into their lives.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I don't know if it was on this or on. There's a site called NegroLeague Baseball.com that has a really good article called NegroLeague Baseball 101 or something like that. It's just the basics. There's a definite story to the whole thing, right? Yeah. But they point out that probably more than anything that helped break the color barrier was blacks serving in World War II.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Serving alongside white soldiers. And stories coming back from the front of like, hey, these guys are killing Germans just as fast as any white guy. Yeah. And at the time, America was like, well, we love that about people.

[Autotrader Representative]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

So when they returned, the black soldiers came home to a different America that they helped change by fighting in World War II.

[Autotrader Representative]

That's pretty cool.

[Josh Clark]

And I mean, the timing of this apparently Is not coincidental that Jackie Robinson was signed in 1946, a year after World War II ended, for sure.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. So Branch Rickey was. He was a very puritanical guy. He would often lecture players on sex and drinking and stuff. And he was. He wasn't just some benevolent champion of the black man.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's a good point, man. Because a lot of times stories like this end up being about the guy who took the chance and paved the way for the black player.

[Autotrader Representative]

But he did.

[Josh Clark]

He did.

[Autotrader Representative]

Like, he was an idealist.

[Josh Clark]

It's just too easy sometimes for the emphasis to go onto that where it's like, well, the black player became. Was one of the greatest baseball players of all time.

[Autotrader Representative]

Exactly. Let's put it this way. If Branch Rickey hadn't wanted to sell tickets by fielding a good team, he would have never signed Jackie Robinson. He was a businessman. The Dodgers sucked at the time.

[Josh Clark]

Did they?

[Autotrader Representative]

But he was an idealist. I mean, he was very much like, no, like, this is wrong and they should be allowed to play.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So, okay, so he was a complex human being, like all other human beings. Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

He can't just be shoehorned into an easy caricature. No, that's great. So Branch Rickey, complicated human being. He selected Jackie Robinson, and it was a great selection.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. Jackie Robinson played one year in the minors, which was ridiculous. They should have just, like he spent his entire life playing in the minors. They should have just promoted him right away. But I think they just wanted to ease that transition. He won the batting title in the minors his only year there, and then won Rookie of the Year in his very first year with the Brooklyn Dodgers.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

And that was April 15, 1947, was when he made his debut, which was very, very historic day. Yeah, an amazing day. Major League Baseball has really, like, honored Jackie Robinson to the fullest now.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And they should.

[Autotrader Representative]

Great.

[Josh Clark]

But Jackie Robinson definitely threw open the floodgates. Within four months of Jackie Robinson being signed, or no, I guess, actually being called up to the majors, two other guys were signed, both in July. And I think that year there were a number of other black players suddenly playing for white Major League Baseball, which is suddenly not now. Just Major League Baseball, not white Major League Baseball.

[Autotrader Representative]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Larry Doby, Cleveland Indians. Willard Brown, the St. Louis Browns. Henry Hank Thompson, the St. Louis Browns. Dan Bankhead, Leroy Satchel Paige made it, finally. And of course, Roy Campanella, among others. These were the first African Americans in Major League baseball. And by 1952, just a few years later, there were 150 black players. And by 1954, all but four major league teams had black players. There were a few holdouts.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The Boston Red Sox, notably, were the last. They waited till 1959, 13 years after Jackie Robinson's debut season.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

In the. In the minors.

[Autotrader Representative]

So with the signing of Jackie Robinson and all the players to follow, like you hinted at earlier, and like this article plainly says, it was, it was a very bittersweet end. In one way, it was great. The color barrier was smashed. League was being integrated, and they were getting their due, although it was a struggle. But in another way, it was also sad that this league that had so much gumption and such a great, like, we'll do it ourselves then attitude and empower these men to play and these people to own these teams and start their own leagues. So it was definitely like a weird time in history.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it is.

[Autotrader Representative]

Like, I think nowadays there's much more of a reverence and a bit of mourning for the disappearance of that league. But, you know, in another way, like I said, it was smashing. The color barrier was way more sure, Way more better. Just went into Hulk speak.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, it would have been a much more satisfying end of the whole thing if the Negro leagues had poached the best players in the white Major league baseball.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, actually, you know what the best possible thing could have been was if the white major leagues absorbed those teams and owners and ownership as part of one big league.

[Josh Clark]

Nice.

[Autotrader Representative]

But they were like, no, we're just going to take your players.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, give them to us.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So that is Negro League baseball. The history of it.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yep. Officially disbanded in 1948. And this article says into the 1950s, there were still a few teams playing here and there. And in the early 1960s, even, there was like one final team, or I guess one final pair of teams. I guess they had to play somebody.

[Josh Clark]

Still playing, or they could scrimmage themselves.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. It says the Negro American League was the last to throw in the towel in the early 60s.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

So, yeah, more than one team.

[Josh Clark]

And this article makes a point. Today, or at least in 2012, Major League Baseball was 40% non white. Which I was like, what? I would have guessed it was the opposite of that.

[Autotrader Representative]

That it was.

[Josh Clark]

I would not have guessed 60% of major league baseball players are white.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. And, you know, there's a big push. I think, like, one of the least represented demographics now in pro baseball are African Americans.

[Josh Clark]

Really?

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. Partially because of the rise of Latino players and then partially because there's Not a big a push to play baseball these days as kids in America. And so there's a lot of concerted efforts to try and get baseball going again in black communities, which is awesome.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Autotrader Representative]

You know.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I know. I was pushed. My dad was like, get out there and get hit in the head with the ball.

[Autotrader Representative]

See, I wouldn't allowed. I had to play church softball. So lame.

[Josh Clark]

So then the color barrier is broken, and now the last vestige of any sort of color issue is the Native American slurs that are rampant in. In all sports as far as teams go.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah. Atlanta Braves.

[Josh Clark]

Once we get past that, maybe it'll be finally totally legitimate. If you want to know more about the Negro leagues, you can type those words in the search [e-mail] youm can also go check out this amazing article called Negro A Kaleidoscopic review. It's on mlb.com and check out negroleague baseball.com. they have, like, all sorts of great profiles on the players and all that stuff.

[Autotrader Representative]

Oh, we never said the nicknames.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Autotrader Representative]

Should we rattle off a few of those?

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Autotrader Representative]

All right. Boy, these are some good nicknames. How about Jelly Gardner or Spoony Palm?

[Josh Clark]

Turkey Stearns.

[Autotrader Representative]

Turkey Stearns.

[Josh Clark]

He's a Hall of Famer.

[Autotrader Representative]

Copper Knee Thompson or Steel Arm Davis?

[Josh Clark]

I think you mentioned Cool Papa Bell.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, Cool Papa Bell.

[Josh Clark]

That is the greatest name ever.

[Autotrader Representative]

Possum Poles. Ace Adams. King Tut.

[Josh Clark]

Smokey Joe Williams.

[Autotrader Representative]

Bullet Joe Rogan.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Joe Rogan. Did you know that?

[Autotrader Representative]

Rats Henderson, Boy. Turkey Stearns. That might be the best. That might be my new hotel pseudonym.

[Josh Clark]

Cool Papa Joe.

[Autotrader Representative]

Yeah, but no one would buy that at hotel registry.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, if you go up and see Turkey Stearns, they definitely go for.

[Autotrader Representative]

Those are great nicknames. All right.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah. Okay, so now that we said Turkey Sterns, it's time for listener mail.

[Autotrader Representative]

This one I'm gonna call Short and Sweet. What do you call it when you remember something with a pneumatic device?

[Josh Clark]

No, Mnemonic. Pneumatic is when you remember it while you're pumping air up and down.

[Autotrader Representative]

Was it nomadic? You remember it while you're wandering around? Mnemonic. Of course. I feel like a dummy. Howdy, Josh and Chuck. A friend recommended your show to me recently, and I love it. You satisfy all my nerdy entertainment requirements while I'm at work. You seem to have a bit of trouble recalling the order of taxonomic taxonomic categories. Boy, I'm gonna have trouble in this next show during Woolly mammoths. Not Woolly mammoths. As our typo originally said.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was my fault.

[Autotrader Representative]

That's right. You just forgot to know what. Here's an easy memory trick we learned in high school biology. Kings play chess on fine green silk. Kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species. I love that stuff because I will never forget it.

[Josh Clark]

Now, that's not a mnemonic device, is it?

[Autotrader Representative]

It's pneumatic. I have no idea why this is still in my head over 10 years later. Well, that's exactly why. Sure, Katie. So hope that helps. And that is Katie from West Texas.

[Josh Clark]

Thanks a lot, Katie from West Texas. We appreciate that. Kings play chess on green silk.

[Autotrader Representative]

Fine green silk.

[Josh Clark]

I'll never remember the fine part. Yeah. If you want to get in touch with us, you can send us an email the stuffpodcastowstuffworks.com and as always, join us at our home on the Web StuffYou Should Know.com.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Josh Clark]

I'm Tomer Cohen, LinkedIn's chief product officer. If you're just as curious as I am about the way things are built, then tune into my podcast, Building One.

[Autotrader Representative]

I speak with some of the best product builders out there.

[Josh Clark]

I've always been inspired by frustration. It came back to my own personal pain point. So we had to go out to farmers and convince them. Following that, curiosity is a superpower. You have to be obsessed with the human condition.

[Autotrader Representative]

Listen to Building One on the iHeartRadio.

[T-Mobile Representative]

App, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Clark]

Calling all Yellowstone fans, let's go to work.

[Autotrader Representative]

Join Bobby Bones on the official Yellowstone Podcast for exclusive cast interviews, behind the.

[Josh Clark]

Scenes insights, and a deep dive into.

[Autotrader Representative]

The themes that have made Yellowstone a cultural phenomenon.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Our family legacy is this ranch and.

[Josh Clark]

I protect it of my life. Listen to the official Yellowstone podcast Now.

[Autotrader Representative]

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We all have a moment that splits us wide open. On my new podcast, Wide Open with Ashlyn Harris, I'll sit down with trailblazers from sports, music, fashion, entertainment and politics to explore their toughest moments and the incredible comebacks that followed. Listen to Wide Open with Ashlyn Harris, an iHeart women's sports production on the iHeartradio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.