Selects: Is birth order important?

Summary

Summary of "Stuff You Should Know" Episode: Is Birth Order Important?

Podcast Information:

• Title: Stuff You Should Know
• Hosts: Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant
• Episode: Is Birth Order Important?
• Release Date: August 2, 2025

In this insightful and lively episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosts Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant explore the intriguing question: Is birth order important? Drawing from personal anecdotes, pop psychology theories, and scientific studies, they delve deep into how the order in which one is born into a family might influence personality traits and behaviors.

Introduction to Birth Order [01:51]

Chuck introduces the topic with enthusiasm, expressing his long-standing fascination with birth order and selecting an older episode from April 23, 2019, for renewed discussion.

Quote:

Chuck Bryant: "This is when it sort of started me down the path of like, what is personality? Is a personality trait. Is it this just. Is it repeated behaviors? Is it a set of behaviors?" [30:31]

Overview of Birth Order Theory [04:22]

Josh and Chuck present a macro view of birth order as perceived through pop psychology. They categorize birth order into several groups:

• Firstborns
• Middle Children
• Youngest
• Only Children
• Multiples (twins, triplets, etc.)

They discuss the foundational premise that parental attention and resources are finite and get divided among children, potentially shaping distinct personalities based on their birth order position.

Quote:

Josh Clark: "It all seems to come down to this idea that you are born into a family where there is a finite resource called parental attention." [05:09]

Firstborns: The Leaders [08:36]

Firstborns are typically described as conscientious, structured, reliable, and high-achieving. They often receive focused parental attention and interact more with adults during their formative years, fostering maturity and leadership qualities.

Quote:

Josh Clark: "They are very mature. Because all of the people, or most of the people are hanging out with adults." [08:51]

Chuck shares a personal anecdote about how being the youngest has shaped his interactions within the family.

Middle Children: The Peacemakers [08:36]

Middle children are often labeled as peacemakers and people-pleasers. However, Josh challenges this stereotype by referencing Jan Brady from The Brady Bunch, noting that real middle children exhibit a diverse range of traits beyond just being pleasers.

Quote:

Chuck Bryant: "But people pleasing, Somewhat rebellious, which is not my brother at all... and a peacemaker. Totally my brother." [10:22]

Youngest Children: The Free Spirits [10:22]

Youngest siblings are portrayed as free-spirited, fun-loving, attention-seeking, and outgoing. Though they may appear uncomplicated on the surface, Chuck and Josh reveal the underlying complexities of being the baby of the family.

Quote:

Chuck Bryant: "Youngies like us most free spirited, fun loving, uncomplicated, manipulative... self-centered, attention seeking and outgoing." [10:22]

The hosts share humorous personal stories illustrating these traits, such as Chuck's efforts to preemptively handle birthday payments to avoid familial battles.

Only Children: The Unique Individuals

Only children often receive undivided parental attention, which can lead to traits such as independence, perfectionism, and strong self-reliance. They might also display maturity levels comparable to their older siblings in larger families.

Multiples: The Synchronized Souls [16:38]

Twins, triplets, and other multiples form their own unique family units within the household. Regardless of their birth order among themselves, they tend to act as either firstborns or babies in their interactions with the wider family.

Quote:

Chuck Bryant: "They always act like the firstborn or the baby, but to one another." [16:38]

Blended Families and Complicating Factors [11:44]

The discussion shifts to blended families, where the introduction of step-siblings or adopted children can disrupt traditional birth order dynamics. Chuck shares experiences of feeling like the youngest in a newly blended family, highlighting the emotional adjustments involved.

Quote:

Chuck Bryant: "If you’re born a firstborn and your parents get divorced and you go with your mom who gets remarried... you’re not the firstborn anymore." [12:09]

Scientific Perspectives on Birth Order [19:34]

Josh provides a balanced view by presenting the scientific debate surrounding birth order effects. While popular culture widely endorses birth order as a significant factor in personality development, scientific studies remain inconclusive or suggest that the effects are minimal compared to other influences such as socioeconomic status, race, and gender.

Quote:

Josh Clark: "Some studies show that yes, there is such thing as birth order effects. Other studies show that there is no birth order effect whatsoever." [19:34]

Fraternal Birth Order Effect [43:12]

An intriguing segment discusses the fraternal birth order effect, which posits that each older brother increases the likelihood of a male being gay by approximately 33%. While Chuck initially doubts this theory, further research reveals substantial support, although contradictions like the null effect in left-handed men complicate the understanding.

Quote:

Josh Clark: "There is an increase of 33% in likelihood that you will be gay with each additional older brother you have now." [43:43]

The hosts critically examine biological theories, including maternal immune responses that might influence sexual orientation development in males.

Confluence Theory: Beyond Resource Dilution [50:05]

Chuck introduces the confluence theory, which builds upon the resource dilution model by considering sibling competition and interaction quality. This theory suggests that firstborns may experience a "tutor effect," where playing against less competent siblings hinders their development, whereas younger siblings might thrive by leveraging their social environment.

Quote:

Chuck Bryant: "It's like playing tennis against better or worse competition." [50:03]

Personal Anecdotes and Conclusions [52:52]

The episode wraps up with heartfelt listener mail and personal stories that reinforce the nuanced views on birth order. Chuck shares an emotional message from a listener named Sam, highlighting the podcast's impact on personal well-being.

Quote:

Sam: "Some tough days... you really help keep me sane. Plain and simple." [54:17]

Josh and Chuck reflect on the complexity of personality development, acknowledging that while birth order may play a role, it intertwines with a myriad of other factors shaping who we are.

Final Thoughts

Throughout the episode, Josh and Chuck maintain a balance between humor and depth, making complex psychological theories accessible and relatable. They emphasize that while birth order can offer insights into personality traits, it is but one piece of the intricate puzzle that defines individual identity.

Notable Quotes:

• Chuck Bryant: "It's all the other stuff that forms your personality, things like the socioeconomic status of the family you're born into, your racial background, your... your gender." [19:34]
• Josh Clark: "It's all the environment you're raised in, which is the most boneheadedly obvious thing on the planet." [14:55]
• Chuck Bryant: "But that is just a fair way to say it." [04:31]

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own family dynamics and consider how their birth order may have influenced their personal development, while also recognizing the multitude of other factors that contribute to who they are.

---

This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and personal anecdotes shared by Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant. Notable quotes with timestamps are included to provide authentic reflections of the hosts' conversations.

Transcript

[iHeart Podcast]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Josh Clark]

Pedigree believes dogs bring out the good in people. Pedigree brings out the good in them with high quality nutrition at an affordable price. They offer a variety of tasty dry food, wet food, and treats that your dog will love. They're made with high quality ingredients and they have great taste in every bowl. Plus, they support total health. Visit your local retailer to try Pedigree products for the nutrition your dog needs and a taste your dog will love. Learn more at pedigree.comfeed-good feed the good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey everyone, I want to talk to you for a sec about Squarespace and specifically Squarespace Payments. If you're running a business and using Squarespace, you're doing the right thing. Because Squarespace Payments is the easiest way to manage your payments in one place. Onboarding is fast and simple. You can get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away. Plus, you can give your customers more ways to pay with very popular payment methods like Klarna ACH direct debit in the US Apple Pay Afterpay in the US and Canada, and Clearpay in the UK. Just go to squarespace.com stuff and you can get a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use our offer code stuff to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hey, everybody, Chuck here with this week's Saturday Select. That's when Josh and I curate specially selected episodes to rerun that may be a few years old. They may be. Oh, heck, they may be 10 years old, maybe even older. You never know because a lot of people don't know these episodes even exist. So that's why we do this. So anyway, this one's on birth order. It's called. Is birth order important? I believe this was originally a Chuck idea to begin with. This is from April 23, 2019. And I am just pretty obsessed with birth order. And so that's why I picked it to begin with. And that's why I'm picking it again right now.

[Charles Duby]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles Duby, Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry over there. And this is stuff you should know. Jerry, were you a. What was your birth order? Oh, Jerry's a middle child. Two of two or two of more. So you're the baby.

[Chuck Bryant]

You don't know this?

[Josh Clark]

No. Did you?

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure. No, I've known Jerry for like 13 years.

[Josh Clark]

So have I.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, not that long. 12 years.

[Josh Clark]

So have I. No.

[Chuck Bryant]

No comment.

[Josh Clark]

What am I?

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know.

[Josh Clark]

What?

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm the baby. You know that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I didn't ask what you were. I know you know what you are. What am I?

[Chuck Bryant]

This isn't quiz time. You're not gonna just.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I wasn't calling you out. Oh, well, I was calling you out.

[Josh Clark]

You were, in a humorous way, and I called you out.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's hard not to look at this stuff through your own lens, though, of your own family, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Are you changing the subject?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, no, I'm getting on with it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Because as the youngest of three and all of us have three distinct personalities, it's hard not to kind of like, think about birth order.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And if that's a thing.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And it may be and it may not be.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Depends on which scientist you're asking.

[Josh Clark]

I tend to think, like, there's just no way. It doesn't have any effect.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I think it definitely has an effect. But as we will see, it is one part of a huge pie that indicates what kind of person and personality you might have.

[Josh Clark]

Well, plus, also, it's devilishly tricky to.

[Chuck Bryant]

Analyze, to study, because of how big that pie is.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. There's so much going on with your personality that to just pinpoint one thing, even a big thing like where you're born in a family, it's just tough to pin down.

[Chuck Bryant]

So you're the youngest, right?

[Josh Clark]

Good guess. Yes, I am.

[Chuck Bryant]

I knew you were the youngest.

[Josh Clark]

I'm like, I wear that on my sleeve.

[Chuck Bryant]

I feel like I kind of do, too, in a lot of these, I.

[Josh Clark]

Guess, in some ways. But, like, I was reading this checklist for the youngest.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I'm like, yeah, I guess so. Let's do this.

[Chuck Bryant]

Should we go over that stuff first?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, totally.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. So this is like the sort of macro view of how a lot of people think of birth order. I would call it a fair way to say it.

[Josh Clark]

Pop psychology.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So if you were born into a family, there's basically four ways that you can be born in some sort of order. You can be the firstborn, you can be a middle child, or you can be the last born. And then if you're a real outlier. Okay, you're right. So there's five or a triplet. Oh, God, yeah. Don't even get me started.

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's just say a multi.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. A multi. Or you can be an only child, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

And all of them have distinct personalities, again, according to pop psychology. But also, according to every person who's ever been born.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Into a family especially.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And so with the firstborn, the whole. The whole theory of basically birth order, where you're born into the family unit that you're born into and what effect that has on your personality and how it develops, it all seems to come down to this idea that you are born into a family where there is a finite resource called parental attention. And then that is a pie that gets increasingly divided up into smaller and smaller pieces. And the more and more children that are born, because your parents can't possibly give five kids the same amount of attention that they could give an only child. It's just not possible. And so what dynamics are created in the personality of the kids born into that family, depending on how many others are born and depending on where they fall in that birth order? That's kind of the premise of the whole thing. And over time, people have said, well, this is what the firstborn's like, this is what the middle's like, this is what the baby's like.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And there were. I mean, a lot of this. These are generalizations, but they are generalizations, like you said, that kind of everyone who's ever been in a family can kind of say, yeah, that's kind of true.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, when you have an only or your first kid, this article references it as that first sort of experiment. You don't know what you're doing yet. You're probably going all in, depending on how lazy you are or how motivated you are as a parent with this, you know, being a super parent. And then if supposedly, as you have more children, it's not only is your attention divided, I think, but there's the notion that you also are like, you know what? I probably don't need to be as crazy with number two and number three, leave them to their own devices as a third kid. I'm not gonna get into too many depressing details of my family growing up, but by the time I was 10 and 11, my parents had other things going on, and I wasn't feral.

[Josh Clark]

Other kids on the side?

[Chuck Bryant]

Not exactly. I wasn't feral by any means, but I did not have rules imposed on me like my brother and sister did. I did not have. I was allowed to go to Panama City for spring break, and they weren't. I was allowed to kind of do my own thing, and I was trustworthy. So that probably had a lot to do with it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

If that would have been a real problem, they might have clamped down A little more or maybe not.

[Josh Clark]

And they probably wouldn't have necessarily clamped down. Like, we need to give Chuck way more attention and guidance than we have been. They would have probably been like crime and punishment. They would have been like, we're sending Chuck to rehab or whatever. You know what I mean? Let rehab take care of a reform school or something like that. Because once you get X number of kids in, you're just so tired.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So tired. And you're older, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

Like, when you're chasing a little kid around in, like, your 40s or 50s, that's different than when you're chasing a little kid around in your mid-20s. I can't imagine a world of difference, you know? So there's a lot of resources, not just parents attention, but also their time, intellectual attention that they'll give a kid, like in, say, like, hanging out, teaching the kid to read, that kind of stuff. And just attention in general. And also financial resources. The family's resources in general are a pie that must be divided among all.

[Chuck Bryant]

Of that financial, emotional, all that stuff. Instructive. So generally speaking, firstborns, people say, tend to be very conscientious and structured and reliable and high achievers.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because their parents are focusing like a laser on them. They know everything the kid's got going on. Maybe a little too much. And the kid is responding to this by basically becoming a perfectionist and really wanting to be around their parents. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Their parents, friends. More mature.

[Josh Clark]

Very much mature. Because all of the people, or most of the people are hanging out with are adults.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yep.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. So that's a firstborn, typically. Right. Everybody knows it. Don't try to deny it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Middles in general are people pleasing, which is so my brother.

[Josh Clark]

That's weird to me, because when I think of middle children, I think of Jan Brady. And Jan Brady was not a people pleaser. She was just, you know, a lump. Like a lump with a cloud over her head.

[Chuck Bryant]

Aw, poor Jane.

[Josh Clark]

But that's true. Like, I would not characterize Jam Brady as a people pleaser, would you?

[Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

Like she was gonna burn something down eventually. If the Brady Bunch had stayed on the air long enough.

[Chuck Bryant]

Was also a blended family. So what was.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Who was the. It was Bobby. And then was it Peter?

[Josh Clark]

Peter was her lateral, I guess you'd call it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Was he a people pleaser or just a Peter pleaser?

[Josh Clark]

More than Jan? More than Jan. But blended families do confound things. We'll get into that later.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. But people pleasing, Somewhat rebellious, which is not my brother at all. Large social circle. Not really. My brother. And a peacemaker. Totally my brother.

[Josh Clark]

He's the best.

[Chuck Bryant]

He's the best. And then the youngings. Youngies. Youngins like us most free spirited, fun loving, uncomplicated, manipulative. I've been called some of these things to varying degrees. Self centered, attention seeking and outgoing.

[Josh Clark]

Check and check. But uncomplicated.

[Chuck Bryant]

Combine you and I and we're sort of like the proto youngest.

[Josh Clark]

Uncomplicated though. I'm like, I don't get that. I'm exquisitely complicated.

[Chuck Bryant]

On the surface you wouldn't think it, but I'm pretty complicated.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

As we all know in this room.

[Josh Clark]

But that's the only one that I'm like that I question. All the rest of them are like, yeah, that makes sense.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's like the Chinese zodiac. You look at that menu and you're like, oh, I'm a total dog.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. And Mugu guy Pan sounds great right now.

[Chuck Bryant]

Onlys no siblings. You are what they call almost like a super firstborn.

[Josh Clark]

That sounds scary.

[Chuck Bryant]

All of the traits of a firstborn on steroids. Very much a perfectionist. Very much more mature for your age. Conscientious, diligent, prone to be leader, can.

[Josh Clark]

Leap over tall buildings.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then this is where it gets interesting. And this sort of starts to finally everybody.

[Josh Clark]

This is where it starts to get interesting.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, this is where it gets in a little bit. Like how complicated it can get because there's so many factors at play. Like what if you're in a blended family? Cause that kind of throws it all out of whack.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, dude, because.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or it can.

[Josh Clark]

If you're born a firstborn and your parents get divorced and you go with your mom who gets remarried to a dude who has Mike Brady. Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

To a smashing cool architect for sure.

[Josh Clark]

And he has a kid that's a little older than you.

[Chuck Bryant]

Greg.

[Josh Clark]

Greg's the firstborn. You're not the firstborn anymore. The best you can hope for is to form some sort of confederacy or alliance with Greg to rule the rest of the siblings.

[Chuck Bryant]

But.

[Josh Clark]

But you're not the head honcho anymore. You're not in charge. That's a big deal. I can't imagine many more traumatic experiences, especially one that follows closely on the heels of your parents divorce or the death of your other parent. That's gotta be one of the most traumatic things a kid can go through. Is to lose their identified perch in the family order.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, and that's. We were talking about like the firstborn, like the baby of the family. If all of a sudden there's a younger no good. Like, I remember my parents, for some reason, talking about adopting a kid. I can't remember how old I was. I must have been about seven. And I remember breaking down and crying and just being like, you can't do this, right? You cannot bring in someone younger and cuter than me. And that happens.

[Josh Clark]

I'm losing my looks. I'm seven.

[Chuck Bryant]

A blended family. If all of a sudden you have to be younger or, God forbid, a baby, just forget about it.

[Josh Clark]

Can't compete with that.

[Chuck Bryant]

You gotta kill that baby.

[Josh Clark]

Well, that's what happened too. When Brady Bunch started to lose ratings, apparently your family was losing ratings. So they were talking about that they brought in cousin Oliver a new baby. And I don't think Bobby was very happy about that either.

[Chuck Bryant]

No. But just think about Jan. It all makes a little bit more sense. Like, she was like, I'm the middle child. And then they brought in three more, and she was like, I'm even more middle.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, you're deluded. The middle child is deluded. And if you have multiple middle children, forget about it.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. However, here's the thing. With blended families, they say by about the age of five that a lot of your personality is set. So if you're older than five and all of a sudden your family is blended, they say it may not make that much of a difference.

[Josh Clark]

No, no, no. That's where it's trouble. If you're younger than 5 and your personality is a little more plastic, if you were born a baby of the family and suddenly you're a firstborn or you're a middle kid, you'll adapt to that a lot better than you would if you'. And you're more solid in your birth order.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I didn't mean not trouble. What I meant was, like, if you're like 12 years old and the family blending happens, it's trouble. But it's not like your personality is like, all of a sudden, I'm the youngest or. You know what I mean? Like, you don't all of a sudden swap to a different birth order, personality, I don't think.

[Josh Clark]

Right. But if you're younger and it happens.

[Chuck Bryant]

You do right under the age of five.

[Josh Clark]

Which goes to show that if this is a thing and we'll talk about whether it is or not soon, it has nothing to do with biology, has everything to do with nurture, not nature. Because a kid can adapt depending on when this happens, they can adapt to a change in birth order. If they're young enough. That means it has nothing to do with biology. It's all the environment you're raised in, which is the most boneheadedly obvious thing on the planet.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then before we take a break, there are also gap children. Supposedly. If there's at least a five year gap between births, then it just sort of resets.

[Josh Clark]

That was like me and my oldest sister. She was 13 years older than me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

She was just like this older cool person, but not like an older sister. Not at all overbearing, really. Like sweet and looking for me, I guess, a little bit. Or like a second mom kind of, to an extent.

[Chuck Bryant]

Because that does happen too, if there's a big gap or a big family. Like, I dated a girl in New Jersey that had. There was like six or seven of them, and by the time she came around, she was kind of fully being raised by her siblings.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So what happens when there's enough of a gap? A new family birth order forms. So, like, if you have an oldest and then there's multiple years, like say 10 years between your oldest and your middle, and then two years between your middle and your baby, the middle and the baby are going to form a firstborn and a last born type relationship.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And the lastborn is always gonna be the lastborn.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Regardless of gap.

[Josh Clark]

But then twins, like you were saying, is one last confounding thing. Twins or triplets, multiples, as you call them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Is that what we call them?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I think so. They form their own family unit within the family, too, with each other. And apparently, no matter where they're born, twins never act like middle kids. They always act like the firstborn or the baby, but to one another.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. And I think they generally come together to kill the parents, basically. Right.

[Josh Clark]

They hold hands. It's like an elevator of blood washes around them.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then finally with adoption, they say that depending on when your child is adopted, the same kind of scenario happens as in, like with gapped and blended families.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Whereas if the kid's young enough, he or she will tailor their. Their. Their birth order to the family that they're adopted into. But if they're older, there'll be trouble.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, that's a good overview, I think.

[Josh Clark]

I think it was a great overview, Chuck. I'm glowing from it.

[Chuck Bryant]

We're going to. You do have that overview glow. We're going to take a break and we're going to talk about science. Right.

[Lola Blanc]

I always had to be so good, no one could ignore me, carve my path with data and drive. But some people only see who I am on paper. The paper ceiling the limitations from degree screens to stereotypes that are holding back over 70 million stars workers skilled through alternative route rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time for skills to speak for themselves. Find resources for breaking through [e-mail] brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Our iHeartRadio Music Festival presented by Capital One, is coming back to Las Vegas. Vegas, September 19th and 20th. Streaming live only on Hulu. Ladies and gentlemen, Brian Adams. Ed Sheeran. Fade look. Gorilla Jelly Roll. John Fogarty, Lil Wayne, LL Cool J, Mariah Carey, Maroon 5, Sammy Hagar, Tate McCrae, the Offspring, Tim McGraw. Tickets are on sale now at AXS.com get your tickets today AXS.com.

[Charles Duby]

Everyone thinks they'd never join a cult, but it happens all the time to people just like you and people just like us. I'm Lola Blanche. And I'm Megan Elizabeth. We're the hosts of Trust Me, a podcast about cults, manipulation and the psychology of belief. Each week we talk to fellow survivors, former believers and experts to understand why people get pulled in and how they get out. Trust me. New episodes every Wednesday on. Exactly right. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Clark]

All right, Chuck, as promised, we're going to talk about science because like I said, this is so boneheaded and obvious to every single person who's ever been born into a family. Everybody knows this stuff. But as far as science is concerned, this is not proven that birth order effects, as they're called, actually exist. That science is saying, hold your slow your roll, everybody. We can't actually prove that what everybody knows is actually true. Some studies show that yes, there is such thing as birth order effects. Other studies show that there is no birth order effect whatsoever. And then some studies suggest that if there are birth order effects, they're so small that they are basically a blip on your personality, that all the other factors that form your personality, things like the socioeconomic status of the family you're born into, your racial background, your. Your gender, all of the other stuff, that is what really forms your personality, not the order you're born into your family. That's kind of science's position right now.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but what they all agree on is that it is therapy. Cash cow, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yes. It's a useful framework to approach psychotherapy from.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that's where they all want to talk about it at high hourly rates.

[Josh Clark]

See, to me, I'm like, this is. Sure. This is exactly what Forms your personality. But I get science's position, I respect it.

[Chuck Bryant]

So if we go back in time to the early 1900s, there was a man named Alfred Adler. He was a part of a, he was a contemporary of Freud. And this is when all these dudes were getting together to talk about all this stuff and this burgeoning science. And they all thought they were so cool and important. And he was one of the only ones among his peers though at the time that was talking about birth order that early. And he went on to form what we know as Adlerian psychology or individual psychology. And it's basically a therapy based on how you perceive your own level of power in your family, at your workplace.

[Josh Clark]

In the world at large in general. Like your perceived power, place of position or status. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And if he believed in birth order having a significant influence on your personality, then that in turn would influence how powerful you may or may not feel.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because to Adler, if how you perceived your own power, not necessarily how powerful you were, but your own perception of power was the driving force of how you interacted with the world, your personality, birth order would make total sense. Because birth order, as everybody knows, is nothing but positions of superiority or inferiority. And it's as simple as that. Because when you're born and you're a little kid and you're born into a family with an older sibling, they are a couple of steps ahead of you because they've already been through a bunch of stuff, so they're inherently superior to you. They can also beat you up on a very basic level. They can twist your arm behind your back until it feels like it's going to break. And no matter how many times you say Uncle, Uncle, I, uncle, they won't stop until they're satisfied or protect you.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like my big brother did.

[Josh Clark]

That's great.

[Chuck Bryant]

From his friends that were jerks to me.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

He wouldn't stand for it. No, we went at it too, you know, we were brothers. But he never picked on me. No, you know why? Because you're Chuck and he's Scott.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

In the 80s is when, I mean there were always studies starting since Adler and Freud's time. But in the 1980s is when it really blew up. Thanks to the Big five and cocaine. The Big five personality trait view of things. And that's when things in the 80s, that's when everybody was just like eating this stuff up.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because so the Big Five Personality Inventory is, we've talked about it before, but basically it is a self reported measure that is actually valid it actually works. Like, you can say, this person is highly neurotic or this person is extroverted or, well, three others that I can't bring to mind right now. But these things are also kind of broken into subcategories. Like, these are big umbrella terms that have more specific subcategories, but it's actually valid. Like somebody who fills the survey out. It's going to be an accurate assessment of their personality. So if you have somebody's personality, that's huge. Right. You can say, all right, if this person's neurotic, they're highly neurotic. Let's see what birth order they are. Oh, they're a middle child. Let's compare them to other middle children who filled out this personality surve high on neuroses. And all of a sudden we can show if you're a middle child, you are far likelier to be highly neurotic under the big five personality inventory than a firstborn is. Right. Boom. Bam. You just proved that birth order effects exist. Or did you?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they're like, we can put people further into a box and label them.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or did you? Because that is sort of the paradox that we arrive at, which is you pointed to it a little bit earlier. There are so many. So many influences that go into what makes you you that it's hard to look at birth order as a mere small part of that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So, like, you can't account. You can account for some of these in studying it. You know, there's a lot of studies over the years and they do their best, but you can't account for all of them.

[Josh Clark]

Well, okay, so we'll go back to that example. So you've just gone to your peers and said, look, I have just proven that middle children are highly neurotic compared to other children in birth orders. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Then you're shaking your own fists around your shoulders in triumph, and they say, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. Did you control for socioeconomic background? And you go, no, I didn't. Well, wait, did you control for race? No. Did you control for gender? No. And so all of a sudden you realize there's all these different independent variables out tons. What in this case would be confounding variables that might actually be the thing influencing it. It might be the fact that they are women born into families of a low socioeconomic state that is driving neuroses. That. That's actually the thing that is driving it rather than birth order. It has nothing to do with being a middle child. It's just a fluke. A. And like you said, there's so many confounding variables and so many things that make our personalities who we are that some people who are like birth order effects do not exist. Basically say that any birth order study that shows that they do exist has some confounding variable. That's the actual hidden thing that's driving it that you can't possibly control for everything to make a perfectly designed experiment for birth order.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Like when you start to think about, like, if you were just to sit there and sort of jot down things as non scientists, just regular schmoes like us, and just jot down a list of what other factors might be at play, we could probably come up with a list of a hundred things between us.

[Josh Clark]

Let's start now.

[Chuck Bryant]

But that would, like, if I was studying this stuff and I started to make that list, I would just walk away and go into another line of study.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

I would be like, dude, I just, you know. Were your parents married? Were they divorced? When did they get divorced?

[Josh Clark]

Did you like hot dogs?

[Chuck Bryant]

Did you live with mom or dad? How far apart did they live? Were you suburban? Were you urban?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Did you live in an exurb? Did you grow up in the woods? Did you start work at 12?

[Josh Clark]

Were you like old timey?

[Chuck Bryant]

I started work at 12.

[Josh Clark]

I guess I did too. I did paper route.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I was a busboy.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, nice. Oh, wait. Was that where the guy put his foot into the.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. Projects do.

[Josh Clark]

What a criminal.

[Chuck Bryant]

I told you, that's a title, Max. Now that restaurant, I drove by it not too long ago. Yeah, JJ's barbecue title, Max. Now they're putting their foot on titles, just stomping on them.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they got your money, your money, your real money.

[Chuck Bryant]

They're never gonna sponsor us now. Another few things that can confound these studies are things. And Ed helped us put this research together. Things like demographic shifts. So he gave a great example of like, the baby boom. If there's a big population bulge that also coincides with a lot of other stuff. And the example he used was prevalence of cigarette smoking. There may be a false correlation there between being a firstborn and smoking. Whereas if you were a second born 12 years later, I guess that would fall outside that range though of gap child.

[Josh Clark]

Maybe, but that's even more confounding. The point's still valid. Sure, that like, there's just way more firstborns who smoke than second borns, but that's because smoking was more prevalent when there were A bunch of kids born who were all of the same cohort and all firstborns.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

That's just one of the ways this thing can be confounded.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. This one really speaks to me. Which is labeled as growth. When a birth order effect does appear, it is strongest when a subject is with their siblings.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. When you're a family reunion, it falls back into that.

[Chuck Bryant]

It is so funny how that happens. I see myself do it. Like, good example. I turned 48 a couple of weeks ago. My family, my sister and her husband happened to be in town, didn't come for that. But we were texting and I was like, hey, let's all, you know, this is great. Let's all go out to dinner. She's like, oh, well, I didn't want to. I just figured you wouldn't want to spend your birthday with your friend. You'd want to spend your birthday with your friends and not your family. And I saw Michelle when she got in town and she said the same thing in person. I was like, dude, I'm 48. It's like, I'm not 22 year old Chuck.

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Chuck Bryant]

Some burnout like I used to be. And she just sort of laughed. But that's a perfect example of how, like, no matter what happens in my life, I will always be the baby.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And she will probably feel like she has to look out for me, which is a nice feeling.

[Josh Clark]

It is.

[Chuck Bryant]

I see Emily fall into patterns with her family.

[Josh Clark]

What is she?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, she is a. She's an interesting case because she was an only and then has a half brother and a half sister.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Her dad. Yeah, her dad went and had a son with another woman. And then her mom got married to her father in law, Steve, who already had a daughter. So it's sort of a weird mix. But I just mean in general, not even with siblings, you know, just in how their family dynamic is. She's a different person when we go over there.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think everybody.

[Chuck Bryant]

And it happens to all of us.

[Josh Clark]

I think everybody is around their family.

[Chuck Bryant]

So strange.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So this is when it sort of started me down the path of like, what is personality? Is a personality trait. Is it this just. Is it repeated behaviors? Is it a set of behaviors? Like, is that personality?

[Josh Clark]

Are you asking me?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, I don't even know like, what is personality? We should do a show on that.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, we totally should. But from what I understand, just kind of briefly put it, personality is the kind of predictable way that you'll react to the world. Right. Is it easy for Somebody to press your buttons. Are you laid back? Are you like, could somebody. However, if somebody were presented with a. This is going terribly. If somebody were presented with an event in life.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

You could say Josh would probably respond to like, that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

That's a personality.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. But is that something inherent or is it birth order?

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or is it just a collection of learned behaviors?

[Josh Clark]

I think it's a collection of learned and reinforced behaviors too. If you're told you're the baby of the family all the time, you're gonna act like the baby of the family. You're gonna act self centered, you're gonna act manipulative. It's reinforced. If you're told you can do anything, you can go out and do anything. You can literally walk through walls because someone told you to. They reinforce that behavior. But I think that's what personality is. And this is just me talking. I also believe in birth order effects, by the way, but I think that that is. It's learned and reinforced, which means it can be unlearned. You can learn to be different.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. At that same birthday dinner, I picked up the check for everyone.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, nice.

[Chuck Bryant]

And there was a bit of a. Not an argument, bloody struggle. My mom and I were kind of off to the side with the people who worked there doing the credit card battle. And she wasn't super happy. And I should have just let her pay, but it's part of that thing. Like, I'm the baby of the family. And I kind of just finally told her, I said, listen, mom, it's like, it's my turn to pay.

[Josh Clark]

Nice.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, I'm not the baby anymore. Like, quit writing me a check for $100 on my birthday.

[Josh Clark]

Do you cash those?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, I generally just put it in my kid's bank account.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, that's a good thing, you know? Yeah, we don't cash the ones because.

[Chuck Bryant]

I also don't want to take away the joy that she gets from writing me that hundred dollar check.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's not cool. No, it's like, I don't need that from her. But, like, that's what brings her joy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Giving you money, it's complicated. So let me teach you a little trick.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay.

[Josh Clark]

If you don't want to get into that tussle. If you just want it to be done. Sorry, it's too late. When you order, when you hand the menu back to the server, just be holding your credit card with your thumb and give them a look. It's universal, dude. They all know and they'll Take it and be like. And you got to it first. Nobody else does that. They always wait and they pretend to go to the bathroom, like after everybody's done it. So obvious. You gotta start before the food even comes, before the drinks even come.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know what I did?

[Josh Clark]

What?

[Chuck Bryant]

When we got to the restaurant, the very first thing I did was go up to the manager while everyone was being seated and said, listen, dude, my mom's gonna try and pay or one of these other chumps in my family is gonna try and pay. I was like, I don't want any of them paying. It was like 12 people. I picked the place. I picked a nicer place. It's like, I don't wanna do that. And I was like, so just here's my credit card. Please make sure that the server. There's no battle.

[Josh Clark]

They didn't follow your orders?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, because my mom, she tried to jump me later on the side and didn't realize I had already jumped her.

[Josh Clark]

So it should have been done.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know, but then we went over there. He was like, listen, man, your mom is over here now. Like, she's the mom. We generally side with the parents on this stuff.

[Josh Clark]

What place was this?

[Chuck Bryant]

It was just a restaurant.

[Josh Clark]

I demand to know. I'm.

[Chuck Bryant]

You think my move should have just trumped all moves? Because it was. No, I agree. And that's what I basically said. And I was like, listen, man. I was like, there are factors at play here that I don't want to talk about. It's like, just please. And my mom got a little mad and then I was.

[Josh Clark]

That's. I blame this manager. I think you should expose them. Well, I'm glad it all worked out in the end.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man. Should we take a break?

[Josh Clark]

I thought we were. Right now.

[Chuck Bryant]

No. All right, we'll be back right after this.

[Lola Blanc]

Don't let biased algorithms or degree screens or exclusive professional networks or stereotypes. Don't let anything keep you from discovering the half of the workforce who are stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time to tear the paper ceiling and see the stars beyond it. Find out how you can make stars as part of your talent strategy at tear the papersealing.org brought to you by opportunity. At work in the ad council, everyone.

[Charles Duby]

Thinks they'd never join a cult. But it happens all the time to people just like you and people just like us. I'm Lola Blanc. And I'm Megan Elizabeth. We're the hosts of Trust Me, a podcast about cults, manipulation and the psychology of belief. Each week we talk to fellow survivors, former believers and experts to understand why people get pulled in and how they get out. Trust me. New episodes every Wednesday on Exactly right. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Clark]

Our.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Iheartradio Music Festival, presented by Capital One, is coming back to Las Vegas, Vegas, September 19th and 20th, streaming live only on Hulu. Ladies and gentlemen, Bryan Adams, Ed Sheeran, Fade Glorilla, Jelly Roll, John Fogarty, Lil Wayne, LL Cor, Mariah Carey, Maroon 5, Sammy Hagar, Tate McCrae, the Offspring, Tim McGraw. Tickets are on sale now at AXS.com get your tickets today AXS.com.

[Josh Clark]

All right, we're back. Chuck. Yes, and like we said, we showed science is kind of like we're not quite sure about the birth order effect. That hasn't kept like a whole cottage like field of psychology from continuing since the 80s, basically non stop. Like, if you go look up birth order effects, there's, it's very rare you're going to run into anything that says, like, this is all bs. Most of it's like, yeah, this is true. Everybody knows it. There have been some, like, prominent people in favor of that say, yes, there is such thing as birth effects. And there was one guy in particular who made a big splash in 1996 with a book called Born to Rebel.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Soloway.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Frank Sulloway. Frank J. Sulloway, if you want to be fancy about it. And he got a MacArthur genius grant in 1984 to kind of study this and write about it. And he did. He wrote a book called Born to Rebel. It was about birth order. And the whole premise of the book was he looked at scientific revolutions throughout the ages. It's pretty interesting, identified which scientists were on which side of it, either in support of this revolutionary thinking or opposed to it, meaning that they were in favor of keeping the status quo and then determined what birth order they had. And he found after this study, which is really, it was a big study that he did, it was a lot of legwork and a lot of research, he determined that firstborns are much more likely to support the status quo, whereas second borns or later borns, he calls them, are much more likely to support revolutionary thinking.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And just one example, as far as he used Darwinism, he said later borns between 1859 and 1875 were 4.6 times more likely than firstborns to support Darwinism.

[Josh Clark]

And that's just one exaggeration. Thinking. Yeah. Yeah. And that was one of many examples. I think there were 121 historical events with 6,500 individuals either supporting or opposing him. So it was a big work, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And one of his. I mean, he put some reasoning behind it too. He was like, if you're later born, you might have a hard time competing with your older, who might have a tighter bond with the parents, maybe. And so that sort of symbolically forces you to be almost an outsider within your own family. So you may be more prone to join up with an outsider opinion.

[Josh Clark]

Right. To go look outside of the family union and all of the values and the ideas that it holds to make your own mark in order to get attention or support or whatever from your parents. Whereas if you're a firstborn and you just got the easiest thing to do is to just fall in line with your parents and hence support the status quo. It makes sense. But Born to Rebel was torn apart by some scientists. Sure. It is. Like, this is just pure pop psychology tripe. I think that's an unfair characterization of it. The guy worked for basically 20 something years on this stuff, and it was a very robust study. One of the pitfalls that he seemed to have run into, though, was he was analyzing historical figures, which is really sticky stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You can't analyze people even from afar, even if they're contemporary, let alone they've been dead for a couple hundred years. So to base it on that is kind of difficult and tricky. But I just want to say he worked really hard on it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Another part plucked from his research I thought was pretty interesting was the idea that part of this less rebellious nature of a firstborn might be due to the long standing, but now sort of antiquated practice of primogeniture, which is the firstborn gets the inheritance. So they're more likely, just through thousands of years of this, more inclined to not ruffle the feathers of the parents.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And then the later borns who are like, I've got basically zero chance of inheriting the family titles and estate. I'll just go do my own thing. I don't have to fight. That makes sense as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

And the other interesting thing with that is another factor was the removal of a child from a family. He's found that a later born who is removed from the family and reared by a relative will end up behaving like a typical firstborn. And again, I'm assuming if that's under the age of like 5, but I wonder.

[Josh Clark]

So I'm wondering if that just is supported by other research or if all of the parenting magazine articles that mention that whole you know, the personality is tailored. Is really just citing that work because that's one of the big problems with pop psychology in general is it's self reinforcing. One person says one thing and it gets picked up by a bunch of people and they're all pointing to the same thing. But since so many of them are pointing, there's so many of them out there doing the pointing, it seems like it's a very robust and like widespread body of work. When really it was just one study that said one thing that everybody's citing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah, like in his case, he likes to cite this Norwegian study. It found a difference of 2.3 IQ points between first and second born children. Sample size of 241,000 subjects.

[Josh Clark]

That's big.

[Chuck Bryant]

It is big. But then, you know, Ed sort of brings up a good point like, okay, maybe, but like is the 2.3. First of all, IQ tests are problematic. They're punk for a lot of reasons.

[Josh Clark]

Because they're bunking.

[Chuck Bryant]

Possibly bunk. But even if they're not, is a 2.3 IQ point difference even meaningful enough to be like, well look, two points.

[Josh Clark]

So no, it's not meaningful in that, like, you know, that's not going to lead to any like closed doors or open doors or anything. It's just such a narrow difference. But if that's like an average and it is found across, you know, firstborns and later borns, like in a very large population like that, it does make you wonder like what would that come from? It does raise more questions, you know what I mean? So yeah, it's an insignificant difference as far as like actual intelligence goes. But it does suggest that there's something weird going on there that does have to do with birth order.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I guess that brings us to this really interesting thing that I had never heard of before.

[Josh Clark]

Oh yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Had you heard of this fraternal birth order effect? Which is basically the idea. And a lot of studies have backed this up. Meta analysis of tons of studies have backed this up. The idea is that if you have multiple boys in your family, each successive boy that's born, and this is if it's just boys, has a higher chance of being gay.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

I didn't think. And when I first saw that I was like, that can't be real.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then I did a lot more poking around, I was like, wow, it is real. The statistics sort of bear it out.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. If there's a big disagreement about whether actual just regular birth order effects exist, this one is much more supported by the Data? Yeah, the fraternal birth order effect. And so much so that there was a sexologist, which if that were my field of study, I'd be like, call me sexologist Josh, please. I can't find his name. It was Ray something he said, and I'm not sure what he was basing this on, but he said that there is an increase of 33% in likelihood that you will be gay with each additional older brother you have now.

[Chuck Bryant]

So that means if you're born into a family and you're the youngest of four brothers.

[Josh Clark]

I did this math too.

[Chuck Bryant]

What does that mean? Because I know these people, like I have friends and family.

[Josh Clark]

There's a zero percent chance, I guess, that you are going to be hetero, that you're 100% chance going to be gay. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, how many? It could be 160% chance.

[Josh Clark]

Right. It just keeps going. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, that can't be right.

[Josh Clark]

Eventually you become so gay you pop out the other side and you're straight because you have like 10 brothers.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I did see that meta analysis of multiple, multiple studies indicated that between 15 and 29% of gay males owe their sexual orientation to this effect, supposedly.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. And we should say there are some studies that have not found this. There was a big one that had. It was like a survey of British young men that surveyed like 11,000 of them or whatever and did not find this. But so many studies have found it that science is like, this actually might be a thing and we're not quite sure what it is. And at first they explained it that the more boys there are, the less social pressure there are for you to be like hetero and responsible for carrying on the family line.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right, right.

[Josh Clark]

Like after two, three brothers who are going to carry on the family line, go go crazy, go do what you want. And that, that was the idea behind why it became likelier that you would be gay if you had more older brothers. There's a couple of things with that. It kind of suggests that like being gay or not is a choice or being straight or not is a choice rather than something biological, whatever, that has kind of gone out the window with another really surprising finding that has to do with handedness that really undermines that whole idea.

[Chuck Bryant]

Y this is so just mind blowing and interesting. So the increase in probability of a boy becoming gay is only if that boy is right handed.

[Josh Clark]

Right handed?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yep. So if you're left handed, among left handed men, there was no statistical difference in the incidence of homosexuality, even if you've got 1,000 brothers.

[Josh Clark]

And the weird thing about that is that they found if you are taking birth order out of the equation, if you are left handed, there's a slightly higher incidence of being gay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Just period.

[Josh Clark]

Yes, for being left handed. And that's with men and women, apparently. So the idea that not only does it not make you more likely to be gay as far as fraternal birth order is concerned, it actually negates the effects of fraternal birth order. It negates shows that social pressure from brothers doesn't have anything to do with it. Because a right handed or a left handed kid is not going to be under any more or less social pressure from older brothers to be straight. That makes zero sense whatsoever. And that would also suggest, since it's handedness, that it has something to do with genetics too.

[Chuck Bryant]

If you're ambidextrous, are you bisexual?

[Josh Clark]

I guess so.

[Chuck Bryant]

Where's that study?

[Josh Clark]

That makes sense?

[Chuck Bryant]

So I did a little more digging in this, but I don't understand it at all. But more recently, as in just a couple of years ago, they think they found an actual physiological, biological explanation for that. Did you understand that?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know if they found it or if somebody made it up and everybody's like, all right, I'll do for now.

[Chuck Bryant]

I read a bunch of papers that said they think this may be it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

But I didn't get it.

[Josh Clark]

So what they think is that when a mom carries a boy, her body has a reaction to the male proteins, the stuff that makes him a male creates an allergic reaction of sorts in the mom and the mom produces antibodies. The first time the mom's body's totally caught off guard has basically no effects whatsoever on the boy's development as a boy. As more and more boys are born and gestate in that same poor mom, the antibodies get better and better at recognizing these proteins and can actually get to the point where they affect the expression of these proteins. And so what makes the boy straight from the basis of these proteins is actually affected. And they develop differently starting in the womb because the mom has developed antibodies to basically maleness, which is the most mind boggling, amazing idea I've ever heard.

[Chuck Bryant]

That summary was so much better than the scientific paper summaries that I read today.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you, Chuck.

[Chuck Bryant]

Good job.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you.

[Chuck Bryant]

You should do that.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you. I do for a living. I just did.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, that's a good point. I thought this was interesting too. I mean, we've kind of gone over most of these birth order theories, I think in general, but this one I don't think we super touched on. And I think it's really interesting. The confluence theory. So this is sort of like resource dilution of parents that we were talking about. Like only so much emotional support or financial support to go around. But this takes it down to the sibling level. And it's sort of basically like if you were first born, you are then have a degraded emotional environment, an intellectual environment, once you get a younger.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So it's like playing tennis against better or worse competition. If you're the better tennis player, you're not gonna play as good against a lesser tennis player. And they're saying that that kind of happens with firstborns. Cause they have to spend time with this dumb kid, this dumb baby, but.

[Josh Clark]

The dumb baby gets a leg up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly. That's when you play tennis against someone better than you. Eventually. That's called the tutor effect. They surpass that firstborn, the student becomes the master. That's right. Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

And your skin turns to alabaster.

[Chuck Bryant]

Really interesting.

[Josh Clark]

Says Sting.

[Chuck Bryant]

Said Sting.

[Josh Clark]

Mm. Well, the Police.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay. Oh, sure. I thought you were like Dream of the blue Turtle. Sting.

[Josh Clark]

No, I'm more of a nothing. Like the sun.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. Synchronicity.

[Josh Clark]

That's good, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm still mad at them for that reunion tour.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah. They really phoned it in, you said.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Just phoned it in.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, I saw for some. So I just thought of the Police and then Stuart Copeland, which made me think of Les Claypool. Remember he was in that band with Les Claypool and Trey Anastasio?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's called Kill Me.

[Josh Clark]

No, that's three talented individuals. But then that made me think of Les Claypool, who was in a documentary I just saw on the Residence. Have you seen it?

[Chuck Bryant]

No. The Residents were the mystery band. Right. That wore the big ping pong heads.

[Josh Clark]

Eyeballs.

[Chuck Bryant]

Eyeballs, right.

[Josh Clark]

Still are a mystery band. Still going.

[Chuck Bryant]

Really?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they're good, but it's good. It's an intellectual kind of examination of their history and everything. But it's really interesting. But Les Claypool's in it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Do you think when Les Claypool. Fish guy. What's his name?

[Josh Clark]

Trey Anastasio.

[Chuck Bryant]

Trey Anastasio.

[Josh Clark]

And Stuart Copeland.

[Chuck Bryant]

And Stuart Copeland. You think when they got together to form that band, all they did was just sort of work out whose solo is next? Probably it's like, I want to do the bass solo first, and then we can go right into the guitar solo and then the drum solo, and then the song's over.

[Josh Clark]

Hopefully the birth order of the three worked out so that it all. They were like, yes. This all makes sense to me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man. There's nothing better than old videos of Stuart Copeland pitching fits.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, did he? I always heard it was Sting that was the jerk. To Stuart Copeland was Stuart Copeland the jerk.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, Stuart Copeland was a hothead, and Sting was a. Could poke his buttons. Oh, yeah, it's pretty fun.

[Josh Clark]

Poor Stuart Copeland.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, don't feel bad for Sturcopel, man.

[Josh Clark]

He might be. I think he might be the best drummer who ever lived. Everybody says Neil Purse. I don't know, man. Stuart Copeland was pretty good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah, and, like, crazy, like, doing his own thing.

[Josh Clark]

And he's from Macon.

[Chuck Bryant]

What?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Macon, Georgia.

[Josh Clark]

Macon, Georgia. Wow.

[Chuck Bryant]

I didn't know that.

[Josh Clark]

This concludes this episode of Stuff youf Should Know. If you want to know more about birth order, go talk to your family. We don't care. Since I said that's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

Did you want the Motley Crue movie yet on Netflix?

[Josh Clark]

No. No, I didn't know it was out.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's out.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. Is it good?

[Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

Is it based on that book you're doing it?

[Chuck Bryant]

It's not good, but it's great. You know what I mean?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah. It's based on the book.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

But it's so. I mean, it feels like one of those VH1. Are you literally making a note?

[Josh Clark]

I can't wait to see it.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's sort of like one of those VH1 movie music movies.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like the Jacksons one. It's. It's. It's good.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, I'll check it out.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right.

[Josh Clark]

Who plays Vince Neil?

[Chuck Bryant]

They're all, you know, the only. One of the. Not the only thing. There's a lot of distracting parts, but the guy who plays Vince Neil in his hair looks a lot like Garth. Looks a lot like Dana Carvey as Garth. So it's kind of hard to fully go there. The guy who played Tommy Lee is pretty good.

[Josh Clark]

Was it Christian Navarro?

[Chuck Bryant]

No. Did he want to. He can't play Tommy Lee.

[Josh Clark]

He could.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, Lee's, like six five.

[Josh Clark]

That kid can play anybody.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, no, I agree.

[Josh Clark]

All right, it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

I said Chuck Nabar is more a Mick Mars guy.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, here we go.

[Josh Clark]

Is that from. Is that Dokken?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, Mick Mars was Motley Crue.

[Josh Clark]

Who is that?

[Chuck Bryant]

He's a guitar player. Oh, the old creep.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah, sure. I know who you're talking about. I guess I never knew his name.

[Chuck Bryant]

By creep. He was a Creep. He was creepy.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. That's what I still is.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, here we go. This is from Sam. I'm just gonna call this heartfelt. It's always nice to hear this.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, guys. Probably could have sent this a million times, but tonight I really felt the need to. You were with me when I transitioned from high school to college. You were there the night my dad died two years ago. And now you're here as I'm in the process of dealing with my girlfriend dumping me after three years. You're always there. Guys, I'm sure you hear this all the time, but I want to tell you that some tough days. On tough days, you really help keep me sane. Plain and simple.

[Josh Clark]

You help keep me sane.

[Chuck Bryant]

Plain and simple.

[Josh Clark]

Plain and simple.

[Chuck Bryant]

Not that we keep them plain and simple. I read that wrong.

[Josh Clark]

That's like eat shoots and leaves.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. I have depression and anxiety, and the podcast is a huge help. On nights like this when nothing seems to help or is comforting, I can tell if things get really bad. If even the podcast doesn't help. You guys have also been, like role models for me. Oof. So this is all just to say thank you so much, guys. Who knows how much darker some spots in my life have been without? You could say much more, but I think I got the message across. That is from Sam, and he says, P.S. i am a he him. And I spanked this email on the bottom.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, good. That's how it got here.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

Nice work. If you want to get in touch with us like Sam did. Thank you very much, Sam. By the way, that was very sweet of you to tell us all that. Hope you're pulling through.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, hang in there, man.

[Josh Clark]

You can get in touch with us by going to stuffyouchouknow.com and clicking on our social links. And you can also send us an email like Sam did. Don't forget to spank it on the bottom to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.

[Charles Duby]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Noah de Barrasso]

Get fired up, y'.

[Josh Clark]

All.

[Noah de Barrasso]

Season 2 of Good Game with Sarah Spain is underway. We just welcomed one of my favorite people, an incomparable soccer icon, Megan Rapinoe, to the show, and we had a blast. Take a listen. Sue and I were, like, riding the lime bikes the other day, and we're.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like, wee people ride bikes because it's fun.

[Noah de Barrasso]

We got more incredible guests like Megan In Store, plus news of the day and more. So make sure you listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network.

[iHeart Podcast]

I'm Noah and I'm 13, and I started this podcast because, honestly, adults don't ask the right questions. Now you know what Noah de Barrasso is a show about influence. Who's got it, how they use it, and what it means for the rest of you. It's not the news. It's what the news should be if someone Gen Z or Gen Alpha made it. Politics is wild, and I'm definitely not here to tame it, but I'm here to make sense of it. Listen to now youw Know with Noah de Barrasso on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Summer's here, and with the kids home and off to camp, it's easy for moms to get lost in the shuffle on Good Moms Bad Choices. We're making space to center ourselves with joy, rest, and pleasure. Take the kids to camp. You know what? It was expensive, but I was also thinking, you have my kid. This is kind of priceless. Take her, feed her. Make core memories. I don't have to do anything. Main thing, I don't have to do anything to hear this and more. Listen to Good Mom's Bad Choices from Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an I Heart podcast.