Selects: Rockettes: Still Kicking After All These Years

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know

Episode Title: Selects: Rockettes: Still Kicking After All These Years
Hosts: Josh Clark & Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant
Release Date: November 22, 2025
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

This episode delves deep into the iconic American dance troupe, the Rockettes. Josh and Chuck unravel the storied history, the unique discipline of precision dance, and the cultural evolution of the Rockettes—from their surprising origins in St. Louis to their becoming a symbol of New York City glamour and tradition at Radio City Music Hall. The discussion covers their demanding schedules, the group's struggles and triumphs, historical controversies, and how the Rockettes have kept high-kicking into the modern era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Unexpected Origins and Founding (04:00–07:00)

• The Rockettes, often associated with New York’s Radio City Music Hall, actually got their start in St. Louis, Missouri in 1925, originally named "The Missouri Rockets."
• Founder: Russell Markert, who was inspired by the British precision troupe, The Tiller Girls (founded 1894).
  • Josh Clark (05:13):

    "John Tiller is widely acknowledged as the creator of what's called precision dance... Markert saw this and was like, 'If I can get some American girls with longer legs to kick higher, it'll knock everybody's socks off.'"

• Precision dance involves dancers moving in exact unison, creating a striking collective spectacle.

2. Radio City Music Hall and Early Years (09:13–14:00)

• Move to New York: The troupe caught the attention of S.L. "Roxy" Rothafel, moving to NYC and performing as the "Roxyettes" before becoming the Rockettes.
• In 1932, they became an integral part of the opening of Radio City Music Hall.
• Stage Innovation: Early performances involved customizing routines for every new movie premiere, leading to a grueling schedule and often requiring the Rockettes to learn entirely new routines in just hours (12:56).
• Host Commentary:
  • Josh Clark (12:54):

    "Sometimes they would have to learn it in a matter of hours, like around midnight before the next day's performances."

3. Height Requirements & Visual Uniformity (07:43–09:08)

• The original height requirement was 5'2"–5'6.5", now it's 5'6"–5'10.5".
• This is to create an optical illusion, so all dancers appear the same height by strategic stage placement, not to exclude based on stature.

4. The Rockettes Through the Decades

• USO Tours (1940s): Among the first to perform for U.S. troops.
• Television Fame (1950s): Became nationally recognized with regular Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade performances (joined in 1957) (14:45).
• Grueling Schedules: Up to 5 shows a day led to the creation of a dormitory for Rockettes at Radio City.

5. Struggles and Survival (1970s–1980s) [20:00–27:00]

• Radio City Hard Times (1970s): NYC's decline threatened Radio City with demolition. The Rockettes were instrumental in major efforts to save the venue, ultimately securing historic landmark status for both the building and its interior.
  • Josh Clark (23:39):

    "...they were successful. They got it put on the National Historic Register of Historic Places... only 110 interiors [in NYC] have the landmark designation, and Radio City Music Hall is one of them."

• Shows on the Road: When the theater was underused, the Rockettes toured nationally, earning high-profile fans like Sammy Davis Jr.
  • Josh Clark (25:22):

    "Apparently made a huge fan out of Sammy Davis Jr., who would come see the same show, like night after night."

• Modernization Attempts (1980s–90s): The troupe participated in Super Bowl halftime shows, presidential inaugurations, and expanded their holiday offerings.

6. Culture, Controversies, and Change [26:34–47:31]

• Inclusion Milestones: First Japanese Rockette (Setsuko Marahashi) joined in 1985; first African American Rockette (Jennifer Jones) in 1988. Early resistance was about uniformity in appearance, but later decades saw movement towards diversity.
  • Josh Clark (46:33):

    "The reasoning...was the idea that it was going to disrupt the visual unity... even getting a suntan was a problem. But in the late 20th century, that sentiment didn't hold up."

• Political Controversy: The Rockettes' 2017 performance at Donald Trump's inauguration caused internal conflict and national debate about the apolitical vs. representative nature of the troupe (27:05).
• Feminist Critiques: Historically, critics argued the Rockettes were a symbol of objectification and enforced sameness. Under director Linda Haberman (mid-2000s onward), efforts were made to present Rockettes as individuals and modernize the show (43:15–45:00).
  • Josh Clark (43:59):

    "...Linda Haberman, like, really kind of took that and tried to unravel it quite a bit."

7. Life as a Rockette [32:15–41:49]

• Hardest Gig in Dance: Rockettes are considered among the best and most disciplined dancers.
• Demanding Schedule: Kicking at eye level up to 1,200 times a day during peak season; multiple costume changes, with one in particular (changing from Parade of the Wooden Soldiers to New York at Christmas) done in just 78 seconds (35:33–36:00).
  • Josh Clark (36:00):

    "78 seconds. And these costumes are not, like super easy to take off..."

• Roster Logistics: 36 perform per show, but 80 are certified Rockettes for backup and cast rotations.
• Pay: Roughly $40,000 for the holiday season, with overtime on days with more shows. Pay is flat with no seniority, as uniformity is central.
• Union Protections & Perks: Year-round health benefits, and most Rockettes pursue other work in the off-season.
• Auditions: All must re-audition each year—even veterans.

8. The Modern Show & Technology [43:15–45:38]

• Haberman modernized the Christmas Spectacular with new tech (3D, storyline updates), more individual visibility, and a pro-feminist angle.
• Unique Fact: Rockettes’ tap shoes have microphones in the heels, capturing the genuine sound live (48:02).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the allure of synchronized movement:
  Jerry (06:19):

  "There's something to that synchronicity of movement and sound that just knocks me out every time... It's a collective voice or collective movement, but it's that precision that really just gets me every time."

• On being a Rockette:
  Josh Clark (32:55):

  "Being a Rockette is extremely difficult and very demanding. Inside of show business and out, they're widely seen as probably some of the best professional dancers in the business, and certainly some of the most disciplined."

• On the intensity of the schedule:
  Jerry (38:00):

  "They all kind of are like, there's no way to prepare your body for this... taking their stockings off at the end of the night is laborious. And, you know, with their commute... some of them are awake and either commuting or rehearsing or performing 20 hours in a day."

• On the question of uniformity and diversity:
  Josh Clark (46:33):

  "...he wanted everything to be homogeneous and in unison. Well, regardless, in the 21st century, in the late 20th century, that sentiment didn't hold up..."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:07–04:00: Lighthearted banter about legs and transitioning into Rockettes’ history
• 04:00–07:09: Origins in St. Louis, inspiration from Tiller Girls, creation of precision dance
• 07:43–09:13: Height requirements and optical illusion of uniformity
• 09:13–14:45: Arrival at Radio City Music Hall, custom performances for films, grueling schedules
• 14:45–15:04: Entry into public consciousness via Macy’s Parade, TV era
• 20:00–25:22: 1970s NYC decline, campaign to save Radio City Music Hall, taking the act national
• 26:34–28:00: Performances at major events, and contemporary controversies
• 32:15–41:49: Day in the life, grueling expectations, pay, union, lifestyle
• 43:15–45:38: Modernization under Linda Haberman, feminist perspective
• 46:22–47:41: Diversity milestone moments, movement toward inclusivity
• 48:02: Tap shoe microphones, show details and traditions

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Fun Facts

• Rockettes’ legs: Only their calves and thighs are discussed more than the troupe itself in the opening moments!
• Microphones: They actually have microphones in the heels of their tap shoes for live performances.
• Precision requirements: Even suntans were discouraged in early days to preserve the “line”'s uniform look.

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains the classic SYSK style: friendly, humorous, and packed with fascinating trivia, with Josh and Chuck’s easy banter and signature wordplay throughout (e.g., “That’s a pretty Sammy thing to do in Las Vegas”—25:38). Even when discussing controversies or tough histories, both hosts aim to be respectful and insightful, often backing up historical facts with their own commentary and asides.

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For New Listeners

If you’ve never seen the Rockettes or only caught glimpses on TV, this episode is the perfect deep dive: you’ll learn not just how the troupe became a central American tradition, but also what it really takes to be one of “the legs that made Radio City famous.” As the hosts agree, seeing the Rockettes in person (and maybe hearing from a Rockette listener!) is now high on their to-do list.

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For more on this electrifying tradition, check out live shows at Radio City Music Hall or seek out the Rockettes’ Christmas Spectacular.

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Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

Member FDIC hey everybody happy?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got a select for you. This is Chuck here of the Stuff youf Should Know podcast, Introducing Rockettes colon still kicking after all these years. This one came out January 1, 2019, and it's about the Rockettes. And this is the time of year to talk about the Rockettes. I learned a lot about this organization. Organization, this dance troupe and their storied history. And I think you're going to like it. So give it a listen and please enjoy.

[Podcast Announcer]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartradio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry. Happy New Year.

[Jerry]

You are too tall to be a Rockette, aren't you?

[Josh Clark]

Just barely.

[Jerry]

Jerry and I can be Rockettes and you can't.

[Josh Clark]

No, it's true.

[Jerry]

Which is a shame, because you have the gams.

[Josh Clark]

I do. Actually, I've got pretty decent legs, you know. At least my calves are all right.

[Jerry]

What? No thighs.

[Josh Clark]

They're a little tree trunky for my taste.

[Jerry]

Oh, yeah?

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I've got a bit of like a fertility idol thing going on like up toward the hips and all that. Yeah.

[Jerry]

Well, it's because of all those squats.

[Josh Clark]

I was not expecting to talk about this.

[Jerry]

About your gams?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

Oh, well, I'll talk about my legs all day long.

[Josh Clark]

Well, let's hear it.

[Jerry]

They're shapely.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. They're.

[Jerry]

They're not. I gain all my weight between my waist and my chin.

[Josh Clark]

Aha.

[Jerry]

Like, I don't. If you looked at my legs and my arms, you'd be like, that guy weighs 160 pounds. And then the rest of me comes along to bust that myth.

[Josh Clark]

Step aside.

[Jerry]

Still have a nice little fanny?

[Josh Clark]

Sure. Everybody knows that.

[Jerry]

Sorry. Listeners in the uk.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah. That means something different over there, doesn't it? It's just so dainty and nice that little five year old kids can say fanny in the United States.

[Jerry]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

It's just the Brits who are sickos.

[Jerry]

But this isn't about our gams. This is about a dance troupe. A legendary dance troupe.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

About as legendary as a dance troupe can possibly be are the Rockettes.

[Jerry]

I think so.

[Josh Clark]

I just said that sentence like Yoda.

[Jerry]

Can you do the voice?

[Josh Clark]

No, no, no. Not even going to try.

[Jerry]

But this totally surprised me, digging into the research on this to learn that the legendary Rockettes of New York City and Radio City Music hall are not from New York City.

[Josh Clark]

No, they're not. Where are they from?

[Jerry]

Chuck, did you know this?

[Josh Clark]

I had no idea. No.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So shout out to St. Louis.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

They were founded in the 1920s, 1925 to be exact, in St. Louis, Missouri, as the Rockets. The St. Louis Rockets, which I think they were trying to be a basketball team, maybe.

[Jerry]

St. Louis Rockets, sure. Yeah. There was a choreographer named Russell Markert, which is. I kept wanting to say market, but that is an R. And he founded them, like you said, in 1925. And he was inspired by a British dance troupe named the Tiller Girls, which was founded in 1894 by John Tiller. And it was kind of a similar idea. He saw these Tiller Girls and he was like, I, I want a high kicking, glamorous, theatrical dance troupe of my own.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

So I'm gonna rip it off.

[Josh Clark]

He did, actually. So John Tiller is widely acknowledged as the creator of what's called precision dance, which is where you have a bunch of dancers who are really highly trained, really athletic, and really precise in their movements that can move in such unison that you take a number of different dancers and they basically become one thing that can do things that an individual dancer can't do. That's precision dance technique. And John Tiller literally invented it with I think, four 10 year old girls in the 1890s. And he came up with some further refinements to it. Like when you put your hand around the waist of the people on either side of you, it kind of lends to the unity of the whole thing. And Russell Markert saw this and was like, this is amazing. If I can get some American girls with longer legs to kick higher, it'll knock everybody's socks off. That's a quote, by the way.

[Jerry]

Yeah, and there's something to that synchronicity of, for me, for movement and sound that just knocks me out every time when I go and see a choir, like 100 people singing together and high kicking or a symphony, just not only the sound, but the movement. When you watch a symphony, that's a big part of it for me. Forget a choral symphony. Like I'm on the floor weeping if you take me to a choral symphony. But there's something about that precision of all these people together that's just really like. I don't know what it is about it. I mean, it's a collective voice or collective movement, but it's that precision that really just gets me every time, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

Well, that's what the Rockettes are known for. It's their, their trade is precision dance. They're as good as it gets with it. Although the Taylor girls are definitely still around. They still have Christmas specials themselves and they're doing their thing for sure. So it's, it's not just an offhand thing to say the Rockettes are as good as it comes, as good as they come in precision dance. Because the Taylor girls would probably say. I would dispute that statement, but they.

[Jerry]

Would say it with a British accent.

[Josh Clark]

Right. I dispute that statement.

[Jerry]

So they were not as tall back then. The original height requirements were between five, two and five, six and a half. And now they went, we'll take your tallest dancer and make them our shortest dancer. Because I guess it's just, I don't know, I'm not sure why they did that. But now it's between five, six and five, ten and a half. And it is not because they want to exclude people or discriminate against people who are too tall or they feel too short, but it's so they can just all look. It's an optical illusion. So they can all look the same height because they take that five foot ten and a half inch dancer. Although they don't have to be that Tall. But they take whoever their tallest dancer is, put her right in the middle, and then just stagger it out from there. And in the end, everyone looks. It's weird. Everyone looks to be the same height, even though they're not.

[Josh Clark]

I don't understand how this works. It's just. I saw it so many different places that I'm convinced that it does work. I just don't get the illusion of it. How it works.

[Jerry]

Well, I think over 4 inches and 36 women, it's just so minute of differences as you scale down that it would take, I guess, an extraordinary human to be like, that woman is an inch and a half taller than the one five people away from her.

[Josh Clark]

Right. You know, I gotcha. Yeah, I guess that's true.

[Jerry]

So you're just a normal person is what I'm saying. Yeah, you should feel good about that.

[Josh Clark]

I fall for that optical illusion every time.

[Jerry]

Yeah, everybody should. So they started with the Missouri rockets with just 16 women. And like I said, now they have 36. And they debuted in St. Louis, but then went to New York to perform Rain or Shine on Broadway. And that is where a man named S.L. roxy. That was his nickname, Roethefel, which is an interesting name. That's where he saw them and said, hey, I got to get in on this. This is amazing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So Russell Markert took the idea from John Tiller and Roxy Rothaful said, hey, I want in on this jam. So I'm gonna grab a few of these dancers from St. Louis and bring them over to New York City, and we're gonna have them start dancing there.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

And I know just the place for them. There's this new venue that's opening up in 1932, and they're gonna call it the Radio. And I'm going to make sure that these dancers are able to perform, and we're going to call them the Roxyettes. How about that?

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Huh?

[Jerry]

Huh? Yeah. Because of his nickname.

[Josh Clark]

Right? And Markert said, that's fine. Just make sure you pay me some money for it.

[Jerry]

Sure. And he did get paid and got paid until 1971. It's hard to believe, but he worked for the Rockettes or with the Rockettes from 1932, or I guess even previous in St. Louis. Yeah, 1925, all the way until 1971.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yep.

[Jerry]

Really amazing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it is pretty amazing. That's a pretty long career. So they. They opened Radio City Music Hall. I think they were part of a 17 group act. And that was, like, such a hot ticket, something like 100,000 people wanted in. But there, it's a 6,200 seat theater, which I think it still remains the nation's largest indoor venue, which is really saying something because I guess it'd just be like a theatrical venue, because obviously the largest indoor venue, sports venues have it beat by quite a bit, but.

[Jerry]

Oh, theatrical. Okay, I gotcha.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

It has to. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

It's either movie or theatrical or something, but it's the largest venue of its kind in the United States, from what I see.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And for many years, they. I mean, they had specials every now and then, but it was sort of just a movie theater.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And here's the thing, you could go see the movies. I think especially it started to take off in the 50s. Like before, they would have premieres for movies and the Rockettes would, like, perform at the premiere. And then at some point, I don't know if it was Russell Markert or Roxy Rothfeller, somebody said, well, why just do this once? How about every time somebody comes to see a movie at the Radio City Music hall, we'll have the Rockettes perform before the movie.

[Jerry]

Can you imagine that? How cool that would be?

[Josh Clark]

It would be pretty cool. I mean, like, imagine seeing that and then being like, okay, now for the movie. That's just. It'd be a different experience, for sure. Yeah. But it was rough on the Rockettes because not all the movies were successes. So they would change the Rockette show for each movie. So if a movie came along and it was just a terrible flop, this whole choreographed routine that they'd learned would be out the door in two days. And now all of a sudden, they had to learn a new one quick. Because there's a new movie coming in to replace that one.

[Jerry]

Oh, so they did a different routine for each film.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Jerry]

Interesting.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And sometimes they would have to learn it in a matter of hours, like around midnight, before the next day's performances.

[Jerry]

I wonder if it was tied to the film.

[Josh Clark]

Sometimes, I think, but not all the time. I think it was. I think it was in some cases. But I think more than anything, they would change the routine just because the people coming to see a different film would want to see a different routine.

[Jerry]

Okay, I gotcha. That makes sense.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

So in the 1940s, they were one of the first groups to sign up for the United Service Organization and go and perform for the troops. And in the 1950s is when things really started to kind of take their toll. Like, they were performing sometimes up to five times a day. And so they said they built a dormitory There, which, you know, they could live in. I don't think they were required to, but it really was to accommodate the fact that they were working almost around the clock because learning these new routines like you said, and then performing up to five times a day, really grueling stuff.

[Josh Clark]

It was basically the prototype for Google, just making it so your employees didn't have to leave.

[Jerry]

Oh, interesting.

[Josh Clark]

You know what I'm saying?

[Jerry]

Yeah, Just go sleep in your podcast.

[Josh Clark]

So the Rockettes, their fame started to grow pretty quickly and they made like a few steps, if you'll forgive the pun, along the way. That kind of cemented them as much a piece of America as apple pie or baseball or moms or what have you. So the 50s were also big for the Rockettes too, because they joined the Macy's Thanksgiving day parade in 1957, I think.

[Jerry]

Yeah, that was the big. The big move.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, because they went from just a group that you either had to go to New York or go off to war to see to. Wow. They're in my living room now. These girls are high kicking on my television and I'm just loving life.

[Jerry]

All right, so let's take a break. It's the 1950s. Good times are ahead and then dark times come in the 70s because it's New York City in the 70s and everything was kind of awful then. So we'll be back right after this. Starfish.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

Okay. Hey, before we get started, Chuck, I want to say we put on a pretty good stage show ourselves.

[Jerry]

We've been known to.

[Josh Clark]

And we've got some coming up, you know, Plug. Plug.

[Jerry]

Yeah, there's no high kicking involved.

[Josh Clark]

There could be. If people demanded it, I would be willing to do a little high kicking.

[Jerry]

So are we talking about some shows?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, let's do that real quick.

[Jerry]

All right, so we're going out west for our annual sojourn in January where we go to Seattle and we go to Portland and then we end up at SF Sketchfest like we always do in mid January.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, And I've got a End of the World live show on Friday at Sketchfest. And you have a movie crush on Saturday at Sketchfest, right?

[Jerry]

Yeah, I'm doing a matinee show at 1 o' clock on Saturday, January 19, with Busy Phillips as my guest.

[Josh Clark]

Nice. And my show is Friday the 18th at Cafe du Nord, and I am my own guest. Fine. Solo. And then I have another one in Brooklyn on the 24th at the Bell House too.

[Jerry]

Oh, I thought you already did that one.

[Josh Clark]

No, it got postponed to January 24th.

[Jerry]

Oh, great.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

So you haven't missed it. There's still time for you to come.

[Jerry]

Fantastic.

[Josh Clark]

So that is our little plug. How about that?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

And of course, our big stuff youf Should Know show is at the Castro on. What is that Thursday night?

[Josh Clark]

That is Thursday the 17th.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So come see us at the Moore in Seattle, Revolution hall in Portland, at the Castro in San Francisco. Check out our individual little shows, our cute little individual shows.

[Josh Clark]

And there's plenty of information on sysklive.com that's right.

[Jerry]

So now it's the 70s. New York is suffering, which is crazy when you look at pictures of New York city in the 70s and early 80s even. Just hard to believe how bad things were there.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was pretty rough. And actually it's funny. Like you can thank Rudolph Giuliani for I guess, cleaning up the town, if you want to call it that.

[Jerry]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

Have you ever heard that?

[Jerry]

What? To thank Rudolph Giuliani for cleaning up the town.

[Josh Clark]

Uh huh.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, good for him. So I saw him in the park one day. You did? What was he doing, talking to a duck?

[Jerry]

No, he was doing like a photo op. But I had friends in from. From another country even, I think. And I said, hey guys, that's the mayor of New York over there. And they were like, oh, that's nice. And I went, it's kind of a big deal to just walk around and see the mayor of New York.

[Josh Clark]

Did they say whatever, Chuck?

[Jerry]

I think they're Australian actually.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that was my Australian impression.

[Jerry]

Oh, that was good then. Yeah.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Thank you.

[Josh Clark]

That's pretty. That's a great story, Chuck.

[Jerry]

Yeah, it's fine. But for them, they didn't understand fully that the mayor of New York City is. It's quite a big deal to see him just out and about in the city.

[Josh Clark]

I have a similar story. I was watching one of the first few seasons of Law and Order on my television one day and there was the mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani.

[Jerry]

Interesting.

[Josh Clark]

But I knew it was a big deal.

[Jerry]

I got another story.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Jerry]

Did you know in the Michael Bay film Pearl harbor that they comped in Bruce Willis John McClane character from Die Hard in one hospital scene.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

How?

[Jerry]

Just digitally.

[Josh Clark]

That's an anachronism. I know that doesn't make any sense. Did they really do that?

[Jerry]

Yeah, you can look it up. Pearl Harbor, John McClane. And there's like screenshots of John McClane in his white tank top, just briefly for a blip in the background of one of the hospital scenes in Pearl Harbor. It's so weird.

[Josh Clark]

So you know, there's a nude woman in the window of one of the buildings that the rescuers fly by. The Disney movie from the 60s yeah.

[Jerry]

All these weird movie Easter eggs. Just bored editors, I guess.

[Josh Clark]

That's exactly what it is. Bored juvenile editors.

[Jerry]

All right, so it's the 1970s in New York. None of this has happened yet that we're talking about.

[Josh Clark]

The rescuers did.

[Jerry]

The rescuers did. But there was no Die Hard, There was no Pearl harbor movie. Except for Tora, Tora, Tora. But no bad Pearl harbor movie.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Jerry]

No Rudy Giuliani. He was alive, sure, but he was not the mayor of New York city in the 1970s.

[Josh Clark]

Not as far as we know.

[Jerry]

Who was that? That was Ed Koch.

[Josh Clark]

He was the 80s, I think. Oh, was he maybe late 70s?

[Jerry]

All right, we'll get that straightened out.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Jerry]

But New York City is going down the toilet. Including, believe it or not, the great Radio City Music hall, much like our own legendary Fox Theater in Atlanta, was facing shutdown and demolition potentially.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. There was a rough transition from some of those old movie palaces after people stopped, well, going to movie palaces and moved out to the suburbs. A lot of those beautiful places were left out in the cold and some of them didn't. Well, a lot of them didn't make it, but some of them almost didn't make it. Like you said, the Fox and Radio City. And apparently it was going to be turned into a parking lot. And Belushi himself got onto the news desk at Saturday Night Live and was railing against the demise of Radio City Music Hall. And the Rockettes too, had said, hey, hey, hey, hey, this is our home. This is an iconic place. Let us help, like go raise awareness and funds to save this place. And they did. They were successful. They got it put on the National Historic Register of Historic Places. And it has a landmark designation, not just the building. There's 1200 buildings in New York with the landmark designation, but only 110 interiors have the landmark designation. And Radio City Music hall is one of them, which means that its interior is so amazingly beautiful that it is a protected landmark in the United States.

[Jerry]

Yeah, I've never been in there.

[Josh Clark]

I haven't either.

[Jerry]

I've been to Carnegie hall, but never Radio City. That's on the list for sure. But it's interesting because they tried to. Their whole deal was is they wanted exclusive movie bookings. Like they were to be the only theater in town that would be showing a particular movie. So that limits their pool immediately. And then they really preferred G rated movies. They had really strict screening criteria, so that just. It narrowed down their movie pool so small that they would go weeks and weeks at a time where Nothing happened there.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So they would just shut down. Because again, remember, like, the Rockettes are a dance troupe that you would see before you saw a movie. So if they're not showing movies, they're not showing the Rockettes. And at this time in the 70s, the Rockettes said, okay, we're, we're. Our talent is being wasted here. At least let us go take the show on the road while you guys are sitting around waiting for another movie to come along. And they actually, they gained that right because they're union dancers, we should say. We'll get into that a little more later. But they managed to get the right to take the show on the road. And they really started to make a name for themselves in the 70s in places like Tahoe and Vegas.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

Apparently made a huge fan out of Sammy Davis Jr. Who would come see the same show, like night after night when they play in Vegas or Tahoe or whatever. He was just fascinated by the Rockettes.

[Jerry]

Love that.

[Josh Clark]

For sure.

[Jerry]

Little Sammy, what a great guy. We should do a show on him.

[Josh Clark]

Apparently he also. Oh, yeah, I'm down with that. He also surprised them on stage once by joining them on stage for a dance number, which apparently he knew because he'd seen the show so many times. Wow. Which. That's a Pretty Sammy thing to do in Las Vegas.

[Jerry]

High kicking. Well, his kicks weren't so high.

[Josh Clark]

Run out on stage unbidden, uninvited.

[Jerry]

He's a little guy.

[Josh Clark]

He was.

[Jerry]

He was the littlest Rockette, I imagine.

[Josh Clark]

Well, but he was too.

[Jerry]

So they're doing their show on the road here and there. They're making ends meet. Radio City is struggling even though it was designated as a landmark. The 80s were not super kind to Radio City either. They very famously appeared at the halftime show of the Super bowl in 88. They're trying to change with the times. They're dancing it in the 90s at different places. And they're always doing their Christmas deal throughout all this, after they started doing that. And what was that? 57?

[Josh Clark]

32.

[Jerry]

Oh, they did the Macy's parade in 32.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, no, I'm sorry, I thought you meant the Christmas Spectacular. Yeah, the Macy's Parade was. The Thanksgiving parade was 57.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So they've got their holiday stuff, their Easter specials, their Christmas specials. They're dancing at inaugurations for George W. Bush. In fact, they came under fire for dancing at Trump's inauguration.

[Josh Clark]

Well, the dance troupe almost was split asunder over whether they wanted to do that or not.

[Jerry]

Yeah, it was a big Deal.

[Josh Clark]

It was a huge deal, actually. And they had revived the Easter extravaganza. They renamed it the New York Spring Spectacular the year before. And they said they took a year off. And I don't think they ever went back to it because of all the controversy over 2016 and the inauguration. It was just such an unusual experience for the Rockettes. Like they're. They're just like America personified. And for there to be a huge national conversation about, you know, them performing at an inauguration, it was a big deal for the organization for sure. Especially for the dancers who are like career Rockettes.

[Jerry]

Yeah, exactly. Should we talk a little bit about just being a Rockette?

[Josh Clark]

I think we should, man, because we've done it. We have. I mean, there was a brief time, although we've basically entered Dinah Lohan territory now.

[Jerry]

Who's that?

[Josh Clark]

Lindsay Lohan's mom. She very famously lied about being a Rockette.

[Jerry]

Oh, really?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. She said that she has a background in show business. She was a Rockette for a while. And some journalists went and dug around and they found out that she was definitely. They had no record whatsoever of her under any name, maiden or married ever being a Rockette.

[Jerry]

It's always amazing to me when very provable or disprovable public lies are told by people like that or like politicians who say that, you know, like they've fought in a war when they didn't. Like that's happened.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

It's just, I don't know why people say things like that, that it's like, no, we kind of can go check that really easily.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, even. But even without like, you know, the checkability of it to just like, you know, lie in an interview to puff yourself up? I guess. Yeah. Like, I don't understand the psychology of it. Is it just because you don't feel like you're giving the interviewer enough of what they need or do they. Did they lay some sort of trick that led you into it or. I don't understand it either.

[Jerry]

Yeah. I wonder if people start to believe these lies. Like if you make up a story about yourself and you just stick with it for so long, it's weird psychology.

[Josh Clark]

Yes, human psychology is indeed quite weird.

[Jerry]

Didn't you have a web show called Psychology is Weird Nuts? Psychology is Nuts.

[Josh Clark]

Little short lived video thing.

[Jerry]

Yeah, go check that out, everyone, and we'll take a break.

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

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[Jerry]

It's like having a lab, a lecture.

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

And we're back.

[Jerry]

Yes. So we were going to tell everyone about our experience as Rockettes because we're Dinah Lohan.

[Josh Clark]

So here's the thing. If you're a Rockette and you've been doing this for 10 years, you're a pretty long lived Rockette. Although I think I saw one woman who is a Rockette. And if I'm talking Weird. All of a sudden, it's because I am stalling everybody looking for her name and I'm not finding it, but I think it's Lindsay Howe. I'm almost positive her name's Lindsay Howe. I believe she has been a Rockette for 14 years.

[Jerry]

That's a long time.

[Josh Clark]

That's a very long time to be a Rockette. Because as you will soon learn, being a Rockette is extremely difficult and very demanding. And inside of show business and out, they're widely seen as probably some of best professional dancers in the business, and certainly some of the most disciplined professional dancers in the business as well. But it's really hard to do for a really long time. And one of the main reasons why is because their work schedule is extremely grueling. But. But with Lindsay Howe, she would make the same amount of money that a first year Rockette would make. Yeah, because they're all paid the same, they work the same hours, they do the same work. Some of them are kind of promoted as like the faces of the Rockettes, the company, I think, Madison Square Garden Co. That owns radio City Music Hall. And the Rockettes are really protective of their image and like, they. They aren't free to just kind of talk to the media or whatever. There's some that are kind of like you and you and you. You're the Rockettes. You're the face of the Rockettes. But other than that, everyone does the same amount of work, same amount of hours, same amount of pay. And one of the reasons they do that is because the point of the Rockettes is not to have standouts. It's not like other dance troupes or other Broadway troupes or anything like that. There's not meant to be stars. The Rockettes are the star. And they're meant to be one single unit that moves and works and lives together.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And they're unionized, so they make most of their money over the holiday season. So they walk out after a couple of months with about 40 grand in their pocket, which isn't bad for a couple of months work, but it is, like you said, super grueling. If you want to become a Rockette, you're not required to. But there is something called the Rockette Summer Intensive Dance Program where you can go, you can enroll, you can spend six hours a day learning everything over the course of about a week, all the choreography, how to get in that shape, stay in that shape, how to prevent injury, and sort of the business of it all. And like I said, you don't have to do that. But they do place a lot of Rockettes if you attend that intensive dance program.

[Josh Clark]

Well, some I saw. Out of a thousand that have taken it, 60 have gone on to actually become Rockettes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Cause it's very tough to become a Rockette, too.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And I mean, I get the feeling that has less to do with the program than just how hard it is to make that cut.

[Josh Clark]

Right, right, right, exactly.

[Jerry]

So not only do you have to be fit enough to kick those famous kicks up to 1200 times a day through all these shows, but there's one clothing change. You gotta do all these costume changes. But there's one in particular in between the Parade of the Wooden Soldiers and New York at Christmas that you have to be completely changed out in 78 seconds.

[Josh Clark]

78 seconds. And these costumes are not, like super easy to take off. The wooden soldier ones in particular are pretty complex. So 78 seconds probably goes by extremely fast.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And there's 36 Rockettes total performing on stage, but there are 80 certified Rockettes total overall. You have a morning cast, an afternoon cast, and then you have, for each of those shows, you have four swings or extras per. So, like, if someone's like, I just twisted my ankle, I can't do this. They have four women waiting in the wings for each of those morning and afternoon shows.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So the thing is, though, is they're working six days a week, or the Rockettes are performing six days a week. If you have two casts, rather than work all work both casts six days a week, they'll alternate to give one another a day off. And they'll do that on days sometimes where there's four performances in a day. Which means that if you are a Rockette, there are days, and I've seen also sometimes they're back to back days where you're doing four performances in a single day, four 90 minute performances. And that's when those 1200 kicks that you mentioned, Chuck, comes in. Because some of those shows have 300 high kicks. And we're talking eye level kicks. And if you do four of them in a day, you've just kicked at eye level 1200 times in a day. And from some of the articles I've read, that is about as much as your body can possibly take.

[Jerry]

Yeah, I mean, they all. In the interviews I saw, there was that great New York Times article where they really sort of dive into a day in the life of a Rockette during the holiday season. And they all kind of are like, there's no way to prepare your body for this, like, we are in the best shape that a dancer can be in and it just destroys us to the point where, like one of them said that just taking their stockings off at the end of the night is laborious. And, you know, with their commute, depending on where they come from, some of them are awake and either commuting or rehearsing or performing 20 hours in a day, just grueling, grueling stuff. But across the board, they also all say that it's the only job that they want. It is a great sorority and sisterhood and an honor to be one of these. Over the years, 3,000 women who have made that cut.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Right.

[Jerry]

None of them are like, well, it's really not worth it in the end.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I mean, at least the ones who are allowed to speak to the media certainly have a lot of positive things to say about being a Rockette and how familial it is and how you're just hanging out with your best friends and it is a great gig for a dancer. Especially, as one of these articles pointed out, if you're a dancer who doesn't sing.

[Jerry]

Yeah, that's a rare thing to get that kind of a gig. I think it's one of the few for jazz and tap dancers where singing's.

[Josh Clark]

Not involved, but also not just like a good gig, a good paying gig too. Like 40 grand for a couple of months of performances. A lot of the Rockettes, they don't live in New York. They'll come live in New York during the season when they need to rehearse and then do the Christmas spectacular and then they go home. So they might live in New York from September to the end of December, and then they go back home and wherever home is. 40 grand probably goes a lot further than it does in New York, unless they live in San Francisco, in which case it's probably. It goes even faster. But it's a really good paying gig. They also have benefits because their union and their contract workers, they have year round benefits.

[Jerry]

Yeah, that's great.

[Josh Clark]

And 40 grand so they can go work as Pilates instructors, as nutritionists, as all the other stuff that they do during the year normally. And then they come back and they're a Rockette. But something I thought was pretty cool was even if you're say a 10th year Rockette, you get invited back. Like once you're a Rockette, you're in as a Rockette, but. But you still have to audition in April like everybody else.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So you audition in April and if you make the cut you start to go get in shape. And then rehearsals, I think, start in September. And rehearsals are six hours, six days a week for basically the six weeks leading up to the performances, which run from mid November till I saw December 31st. I also saw tickets available for a January 1st show, so I don't know if they extended it or not.

[Jerry]

Yeah, and it's funny, like, 40 grand sounds like a lot of money over a couple of months, and it is. But when you break it down per show, it breaks down to about 135 bucks a show, which all of a sudden it doesn't seem like great money.

[Josh Clark]

No, but that's what you make as a standard cast member for a Broadway union dancer or actor or variety performer, I think is the union they're part of. So, no, it doesn't seem like much. But that's another reason why the Rockette gig is so good. You get overt on those days. When you do a third and a fourth show, you're getting overtime pay and there's multiple shows in. In on multiple days. So you can. I mean, if another actor at a different gig working the same days over the same period would not make that amount of money, that 40 grand, because they wouldn't have any overtime. They wouldn't have that many shows.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And I don't think anyone, like, dreams of going to Broadway to become rich and wealthy. Like, part of the allure of Broadway is you're with the best of the best. And you can say, I danced or I sang or I acted on Broadway with Bryan Cranston. I saw him on Broadway.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I saw Michael McKeon on Broadway.

[Jerry]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

An accomplice. The audience was the accomplice. That was the big twist.

[Jerry]

Oh, well, you just ruined that one.

[Josh Clark]

Was it good? It was great. It was one of the greatest stage performances I've ever seen. I saw Lenny live on stage.

[Jerry]

Derek St. Hubbins.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. This is before I knew him as anything but Lenny. I was like eight.

[Jerry]

Oh, so this is a while ago. Cranston is in something new on Broadway now, I think, too.

[Josh Clark]

It's in network, Right.

[Jerry]

Oh, man, I want to see that.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Jerry]

I bet that's good.

[Josh Clark]

I saw that. It was described as, get this, Chuck, get ready for this.

[Jerry]

Oh, boy.

[Josh Clark]

Electrifying.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Really?

[Jerry]

A Broadway show described as electrifying?

[Josh Clark]

His performance was electrifying.

[Jerry]

I don't think I've ever heard that word used for the theater. So another thing, though, about the Rockettes, even though they do make most of their money over those couple of months and Then they have the rest of the year to, in a lot of cases, be, like, a dance instructor or something like that, or a fitness instructor. They increasingly are working more and more months out of the year. Whether it's as ambassadors for the Rockettes or doing video things for YouTube, they are increasingly called on to do other things.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So what is the woman who came along as the lead choreographer and director and really kind of punched it up even further? Her name is Linda Haberman, and she took over, I think, in, like, the mid-2000s, maybe 2008. And she kind of brought, like, this whole new. Not new. It's not a whole new thing. She just kind of. She made it a little more pro feminist, a little more like, you go, girl kind of vibe to the Rockettes than they had before they were seen, you know, rehearsing in the rehearsal gear rather than, like, full costume. And it was just kind of like the intent I get was to make them more people.

[Jerry]

Human beings.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

Because one of the great criticisms of the Rockettes is that they're nothing but, like, teeth and legs. Just a bunch of women out there kicking, like, forming one large uber woman who can kick her legs amazingly high and has, like, the widest, gleamingest teeth ever you've ever seen. And that it was really kind of just. Just objectification of women, like, to, like, by definition. And Linda Hamerman, like, really kind of took that and tried to unravel it quite a bit, and she also took the show. So we should talk a little bit about the show. It's a. Depending on who you are. It's either like, just beloved, traditional Americana, kitschy, offensively sexist, who knows? But I think the first two are kind of the predominant views of it. It's kitschy and sweet, or it's endearing Americana. And Linda Haberman kind of took that and tried to punch it up into the 21st century a little more. And there's, like, way more visual effects than there were before. There's like, a 3D component, I think, to this year's show or recent year's shows. Like, the whole theme is, like, a girl wants a video game and her mom is kind of showing her. You know why that's not so great? Because it's a violent video game. There's a lot of kind of updating that the Rockets have undergone in the last few years. And that was largely, from what I understand, Linda Haberman's doing.

[Jerry]

I think she was the one that digitally inserted John McClane from Die Hard.

[Josh Clark]

She was, he swoops In. In the New York Follies section.

[Jerry]

Now, I'm glad they updated things because this was a prime case of, like, a beloved American tradition that could use some refreshing. And you can highlight them as humans and individuals, and still you can have both. And you can still have that desired effect of uniformity and precision that they're known for.

[Josh Clark]

Right, exactly.

[Jerry]

But they don't have to be just faceless and nameless.

[Josh Clark]

And I read a few feminist critiques of the Rockettes, and they seem to have been kind of outdated. Like, I really feel like Linda Haberman did a good job at, like.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yeah, she.

[Josh Clark]

She kind of took those. Those critiques and changed them in a lot of ways.

[Jerry]

That's great.

[Josh Clark]

One of the other criticisms is that it wasn't until 1985 that the Rockettes had their first woman of color as a member of the. Their cast of their troupe.

[Jerry]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

The first woman of color was a Japanese woman named Setsuko marahashi. And in 1985, she joined. In 1988, the first African American woman joined. Her name was Jennifer Jones. And the reasoning, apparently it was Mark Markert who was like, no, from all I saw, it had nothing to do with racism. It was the idea that it was going to disrupt the visual unity of the dance line. If there were differing skin colors in this dance line. And apparently he was so nutso, it, like, you would get in trouble if you had a suntan. Like, that's how. That's how he wanted everything to be, homogeneous and in unison. Well, regardless, in the 21st century, in the late 20th century, that sentiment didn't hold up. And I guess shortly after he died is when they started adding women of color more to the Rockettes troupe.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And then they saw people of color in that same dance line and they went, oh, it's still awesome and synchronized and looks great.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly.

[Jerry]

And from his grave, he went, no.

[Josh Clark]

He started rolling around in it.

[Jerry]

Oh, goodness.

[Josh Clark]

So you haven't seen a Rockettes Christmas Spectacular, huh?

[Jerry]

You mean live in person?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I have not. I have not either. Are we going to go now?

[Jerry]

I think we should. I want to know if any Rockettes listen to this show. Yeah, that would make me super, super happy.

[Josh Clark]

It would for me as well.

[Jerry]

And the only other small tidbit I have is they have microphones in their heels of their shoes.

[Josh Clark]

I saw that, too. They used to. They used to play recordings of their tapping, Right?

[Jerry]

Oh, I don't know that. That does not surprise me.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And then they figured out how to do the actual, like, Broadcast the actual tapping. So we're going to go one day, Chuck. We're going to go see the Christmas Spectacular. We're going to go see the live Nativity with the real camel and donkeys and the wooden toy soldier mark where they fall down like a domino in slow motion. It's pretty amazing stuff. And if you want to know more about the Rockettes, then go to Radio City Music hall and find them there. How about that?

[Jerry]

That sounds great.

[Josh Clark]

Well, since I said that, then it's time for listener mail.

[Jerry]

I'm calling this. I was a search and rescue victim volunteer. So this guy, his dad.

[Chuck Bryant]

Dad.

[Jerry]

I'm gonna summarize the beginning of it because it's kind of long, but his dad lives in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and is a member of the local SAR team. And so they were like, we need someone to play the victim here. And he was like, I'll do it. This guy's son. So here's what happened. He set off into the heavily wooded area and did, he said, I did everything I could to think of to try and fool the dog and the handler. I ran in circles, went back over my own trail. I threw off my hat. I even found some garbage and rolled around in it to mask my scent. Once I had done everything I could think of to try and fool the dog and handler that would be tracking me, I found a nice comfy spot up in a bush on a hill where I could just watch the dog and the handler try and track me. I thought I'd done a pretty good job. But once I called the handler and let him know I was in position, was all over very quickly. I sat back and everyone was shocked to watch the dog basically retrace my trail step by step. Every move I made, all those circles, finding my hat, even that I had thrown off, even getting into that pile of garbage that I'd rolled around in. I love that this dog is just basically making a fool of poor Ryan up there in the mountains. So he said, needless to say, the dog found me in short order. Order gave him lots of praise for the great job he had done. Thankfully, I was never in any real danger, so my experience was a lot more enjoyable, obviously, than when people are in real need of a search and rescue dog. Thanks for the great episodes, guys. Keep me company on overnight shifts and make it all go by quicker. So if you read this on the show, can I get a shout out to my girlfriend, Taryn? She would be thrilled to hear her name get called out on the show.

[Josh Clark]

I think that just happened?

[Jerry]

Yep. So that is from Ryan. I like the gusto that Ryan put into trying to fool this dog rolling a garbage. And I equally love that this dog was like whatever. So thank you Ryan. Thank you Taren for listening and thank.

[Josh Clark]

You to the sour dog.

[Jerry]

Sure Scruffy.

[Josh Clark]

If you want to get in touch with us, you can go to our website stuffyou should know dot com. You can find all of our social links there. And you can send an email to Chuck, Jerry and [e-mail].

[Podcast Announcer]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

[Jerry]

For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app.

[Podcast Announcer]

Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite show.

[Chuck Bryant]

Attention parents and grandparents. If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long. Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest, safest and number one kids bike on the market.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

Yeah. With USA Made Kids Specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day with no training wheels needed. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. My daughter has a Guardian bike and she loves it and that thing was really easy to put together. And get this this holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year. Over 40% in savings on all bikes plus $100 in free accessories. Guardian bikes have become one of the most sought after gifts of the season and inventory is going fast. So don't wait. Join over a half a million families who've discovered the magic of guardian. Visit guardianbikes.com to sh.

[Charles W. (Chuck) Bryant]

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