Selects: The Collar Bomb Heist

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know – Episode: The Collar Bomb Heist

Release Date: February 15, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
Description: If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Niño, true crime, and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.

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Introduction to the True Crime Series

[00:57] Chuck Bryant:
"This one's from May 2018 and boy, oh boy, this is a good one. I forgot all about this. And this is part of our true crime series."

Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant introduce the episode as part of their ongoing true crime series, highlighting their renewed focus on delving into complex criminal cases.

---

Overview of the Collar Bomb Heist

[03:04] Josh Clark:
"So let's start with the pizza."

The hosts begin by recounting the events of August 28, 2003, in Erie, Pennsylvania. Brian Wells, a 46-year-old pizza delivery driver from Mamma Mia's Pizzeria, received a delivery order that altered his fate.

[03:55] Chuck Bryant:
"At about 2pm on August 28, 2003, a pizza delivery guy named Brian Wells...he looked a lot different than he did when he left the pizza parlor about 28 minutes earlier."

Brian Wells, while delivering pizzas, was coerced into a bank robbery under duress, wearing a homemade collar bomb designed to kill him if he did not comply.

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The Heist and Immediate Aftermath

[05:25] Josh Clark:
"But in the teller at the bank's defense, could have been an artificial torso. And she probably didn't want to draw attention to it."

At the PNC Bank branch, Wells presented a note demanding $250,000 from the bank's safe within 15 minutes. Despite the seemingly generous timeframe for a bank robbery, the pressure mounted as Wells awaited the bank's response.

[07:19] Chuck Bryant:
"...he was sitting on the ground with this thing around his neck, kind of just waiting, seated on the pavement for about 25 minutes."

After the failed robbery attempt, Wells attempted to flee but was apprehended by Pennsylvania state troopers, still strapped with the collar bomb. [08:09] Chuck Bryant describes the scene where Wells pleads for help, asserting his lack of involvement in the heist and the threat of imminent death by the bomb.

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The Complex Investigation

[11:04] Josh Clark:
"And it really looks a lot like a gun."

Investigators discovered that the bomb was a sophisticated homemade device with multiple timers and decoy wires, indicating meticulous planning. Additionally, handwritten notes found in Wells' car outlined a scavenger hunt intended to guide the participants—or possibly mislead the police.

[12:26] Chuck Bryant:
"...instructions basically on what this guy should do, which further kind of cemented like, hey, this guy's probably telling the truth."

The scavenger hunt added layers of complexity to the case, leading authorities on a wild goose chase that ultimately stalled their progress.

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Breakthroughs and the Role of Marjorie Diehl Armstrong

[21:08] Josh Clark:
"So there's a couple of things going on here by then... There’s no leads."

Months into the investigation, a crucial breakthrough occurred when Bill Rothstein, a handyman living near Wells' pizza place, confessed to assisting in covering up a murder linked to Marjorie Diehl Armstrong, a known criminal with a history of violent offenses.

[24:47] Chuck Bryant:
"...she was this very, very bright woman who... had been indicted for killing one of her boyfriends."

Armstrong's involvement brought new dimensions to the case, intertwining her past criminal actions with the Collar Bomb Heist, suggesting a broader criminal network.

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The Trial and Conflicting Testimonies

[36:08] Josh Clark:
"Bill Rothstein is dead."

As investigations deepened, Armstrong faced trial for her role in orchestrating the heist. Testimonies from key figures like Kenneth Barnes contradicted her claims of innocence, painting a picture of a meticulously planned criminal enterprise aimed at securing large sums of money through coercion and deception.

[40:22] Chuck Bryant:
"...she agreed to a tour around Erie showing them all these places where she had been, and these were all places that were related to the crime."

During the trial, Armstrong provided detailed accounts of the heist, yet maintained her stance of not directly orchestrating the events, leading to a complex legal battle over her true role.

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Conviction and Aftermath

[43:56] Josh Clark:
"...everybody's dead now."

Ultimately, Armstrong was convicted of armed bank robbery, conspiracy, and use of a destructive device in a crime of violence after an 11-hour jury deliberation. Her conviction brought some closure to the perplexing case, though debates linger regarding the true mastermind behind the heist.

[44:12] Josh Clark:
"That’s a big one. I'll bet. I'll bet that carries a hefty sentence with it."

Armstrong received a significant prison sentence, aligning with the gravity of her convictions.

---

Unresolved Questions and Legacy

[44:48] Josh Clark:
"...everything's dead now."

Despite the convictions, lingering questions remain about the full extent of the conspiracy and whether other individuals like Floyd Stockton were involved, raising doubts about the completeness of the investigation.

[45:54] Chuck Bryant:
"...people involved... they got this all wrong."

Retired FBI investigator Jim Fisher has expressed doubts about the official narrative, suggesting that Rothstein might have been the true orchestrator, adding intrigue and mystery to an already convoluted case.

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Conclusion

The Collar Bomb Heist remains one of the most baffling true crime cases, blending elements of coercion, deception, and high-stakes criminal planning. While convictions have been made, the true depth of the conspiracy and the roles of various participants continue to fuel debates and investigations, ensuring the case's lasting legacy in the annals of true crime history.

---

Notable Quotes

• [02:19] Josh Clark:
  "True crime can be extraordinarily interesting. Especially when you're talking about an extraordinarily over complicated heist that results in a man's bizarre death."

• [07:04] Chuck Bryant:
  "Because why not?"

• [25:10] Josh Clark:
  "There's something very, very odd on Bill Rothstein's suicide note."

• [39:21] Josh Clark:
  "She's put on quite a performance on the stand over, like, two days... she stuck with her story, though, that she had nothing to do with this."

---

Further Reading and Resources

For listeners interested in delving deeper into the Collar Bomb Heist, the hosts recommend the comprehensive article by Rich Shapiro published in Wired magazine, which provides an in-depth exploration of the case's complexities and unresolved mysteries.

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This summary captures the essence of "The Collar Bomb Heist" episode from the Stuff You Should Know podcast, focusing on the true crime narrative while omitting advertisements and non-content segments.

Transcript

[Chuck Bryant]

With T Mobile. No Trendspotter has to deal with Trendspotty service because T Mobile helps keep you connected from big cities to your hometown on America's largest 5G network. Switch now keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off at the $800 per line via prepaid card. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines via virtual prepaid card. Last 15 days qualifying unlock device credit service port in 90 days device knowledgeable carrier and timely redemption required card is no cash access. It expires in six months. Welcome to My Legacy.

[Josh Clark]

I'm Martin Luther King III and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and.

[Chuck Bryant]

Our dear friends Mark and Craig Kilberger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives.

[Andrea Waters King]

Join us for heartfelt conversations with remarkable guests like David Oyelo, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter.

[Josh Clark]

Listen to My legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is my legacy. Hi everybody. Chuck here curating a specially hand picked selected episode. This one's from May 2018 and boy, oh boy, this is a good one. I forgot all about this. And this is part of our true crime series. Not so grisly as far as like, you know, it's not about an axe murder or anything like that. It's about a heist. And I love me some heist. And this is called the Colorbomb Heist. Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Jerry's over there. And this is Stuff youf Should Know that True Crime edition again.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, we've done a few of these right.

[Josh Clark]

True crime is so hot right now.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey man, we were dabbling on the periphery of true crime when most of these people were wet in their diapers.

[Josh Clark]

That's right, man. That is right. I'm glad somebody finally said it.

[Chuck Bryant]

We were occasionally doing a poor job of covering true crime 10 years ago.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. We're going to do it again. That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

We continue that great rich history.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, because true crime can be extraordinarily interesting. Especially when you're talking about an extraordinarily over complicated heist that results in a man's bizarre death. Death by bizarre means and involves what really ultimately you could make a case as an unsolved mystery. Still today, even though it's technically bureaucratically been solved, a lot of people say no, this thing hasn't been solved yet.

[Chuck Bryant]

You got homemade bombs, you got a scavenger hunt, you got a crack dealer.

[Josh Clark]

Well, you got to have a crack dealer.

[Chuck Bryant]

Got prostitutes. You got pizza and.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and let's start with the pizza.

[Chuck Bryant]

You got a geometro.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Which, by the way, I just wanted to point out ahead of time, there is no more pizza delivery car 2003 than a Geo Metro.

[Josh Clark]

A teal one, no less.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that thing is. It's almost like they rolled them right off the line in 2003. Straight to a pizza place with the.

[Josh Clark]

Pizza guy inside already.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And the little sign magneted on top.

[Josh Clark]

Right. A little crooked.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yep.

[Josh Clark]

So the whole thing does start actually with a pizza guy, a pizza place and a teal Geo Metro. And like you said, the whole thing starts in 2003 in Erie, Pennsylvania. And there was a. And still is. I looked it up. There's a pizza place called Mamma Mia's Pizzeria.

[Chuck Bryant]

A woman knows, but fine, sure.

[Josh Clark]

It gets the job done. Right. And at about 2pm on August 28, 2003, a pizza delivery guy named Brian Wells, think he was 46 at the time, he was about to end his morning shift when a call came in for two small sausage and pepperoni pizzas. And the delivery was, I guess the opposite way of where Brian Wells was going to go on his way home. But he said, you know what? I'll take this one last order. And he walked out the door at about 2. And the next time that Brian Wells was seen in public again, he was entering a PNC bank branch just down the street from his pizza place a few miles up the road. And he looked a lot different than he did when he left the. The pizza parlor about 28 minutes earlier.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So first of all, he was. He was walking with a cane, kind of a funny looking cane. And then under his T shirt he had clearly. And if you've seen the footage and the photos, which you can see, warning, by the way, for video.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

For the future. It's quite graphic.

[Josh Clark]

It's out there, but.

[Chuck Bryant]

It is out there. But he had clearly some large, boxy looking thing. It looked like he was wearing a shoebox around his neck with a T shirt pulled over it, kind of.

[Josh Clark]

But in the teller at the bank's defense, could have been an artificial torso. And she probably didn't want to draw attention to it.

[Chuck Bryant]

She. Yes, she was being very kind.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So one thing I want to point out too, there's already discrepancy what we're Like a minute into the story and there's already a discrepancy. That shirt he was wearing over that boxy thing underneath, his shirt said Guess on it. And I've seen that it was written somehow like in spray paint or marker or that it was an actual Guess jeans T shirt.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, really? So either an officially licensed or not licensed, but whatever brand shirt or a homemade janky, spray painted version.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And if you look, the pictures don't really show one way or another.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I couldn't tell.

[Josh Clark]

It looks more like it's homemade. And I looked up to see if there was a guest shirt that, you know, if I could find the actual guest shirt. It wasn't. Couldn't. So I think it may have been homemade.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

Regardless, he's wearing this shirt that says Guess on, and he walks up to the teller and he hands the teller a note. And the note says, I have a bomb. Get everybody who has access codes to the safe together and put $250,000 into a bag and bring it to me. I think he said, you have 15 minutes to do this.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Which kind of a long time if you're a bank robber.

[Josh Clark]

It is, it's like almost like luxurious amount of time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Would have said like 60 seconds.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Or this should have happened yesterday. Chop chop.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

So he, he stands back and waits. Apparently grabs a dum dum lollipop out of the little basket while he's waiting.

[Chuck Bryant]

Because why not?

[Josh Clark]

And the teller says, sir, we don't have like, we can't get into the safe. That's just not how things work. I'm sorry, but as a consolation prize, I'm going to put $8,702 into a bag for you right here and send you on your way. Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And importantly, we did not mention he lifted his shirt up and showed this teller.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

This, this bomb, this what's called a collar bomb strapped around his neck.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So he walks out of the bank a free man. And the next time that he's seen in public is about 15 minutes later. And he's seen in public by some Pennsylvania state troopers who are on the lookout for this guy. And he's still wearing that shirt. He's still got the big bulge. And he's standing around his Geometro parked in a parking lot that is actually shared with, with that PNC bank and a McDonald's. And he's in a parking lot right there. So basically he left the bank robbery and went about 100 to 200ft away from it. And that's where he was found like a full 15 minutes later.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So these copas, these troopers come over and he says, hey, guys, this is a bomb around my neck. A group of. Group of black men chain this bomb around my neck at gunpoint. Forced me to rob this bank for them. I'm not gonna. I'm not lying here. This thing is gonna go off. So the cops call the bomb squad, and they do. I saw, you know, his. The family of Wells is still angry about the fact that she says they did nothing to save them, but I would be, too. By the way, we should shout out Wired magazine.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yes, we really, really should.

[Chuck Bryant]

A lot of this came from a great, heavily researched story by Rich Shapiro from about eight years ago called the Incredible True Story of the Collarbone Heist. So thank you, Rich, for your work. But the dude's on the ground. He sit. I mean, if you. I kind of remember this happening because when I went and looked at the still images, I was like, wait a minute, I've seen this. And it's this guy sitting on the ground with this thing around his neck, kind of just waiting, seated on the pavement for about 25 minutes. He says, very interestingly, like, did you call my boss at the pizza place? And then all of a sudden, this bomb starts beeping fast, which is never a good sign. And when I was reading the story, I thought, well, that's just a ruse. But no, this thing detonated and killed him. It blasted a hole in his chest. It did not blow his head off like the Internet says. No, but it was a violent, awful death.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was. And it was pretty quick. And then three minutes after the bomb goes off, the bomb squad showed up. So they. So he's dead. This guy, Brian Wells is dead. And the whole time he was protesting, he's like, you know, this is. I was forced to rob the bank. Are you guys going to get this off of me or what? Yeah. He said something like, did you call my boss? Because apparently he was a very loyal employee. He'd been working at Mamma Mia's for how long? Like 10 years or something like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know.

[Josh Clark]

For years and years. And he'd only called in late once, not even sick late once when his cat died, said Rich Shapiro in that Wired article. So it seemed like he actually was telling the truth, that he had been abducted and forced to rob the bank and then had been a victim. I think the bomb going off really kind of put an exclamation point on his story that he. He was not a Willing participant in this. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So the cops obviously check out that Geo Metro and it's sweet, sweet styling. And they, they saw his cane in there. It turns out the reason why the cane was funny looking is because it was also a gun.

[Josh Clark]

And it really looks a lot like a gun.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. When you look at it. The bomb was clearly homemade. It had a couple of different parts to it. It was this banded metal collar that he wore around his neck. It was like locked to his neck, had four keyholes. And then a combination lock.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was really locked to his neck.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then an iron box with two pipe bombs loaded up, ready to go. And then interestingly, and this will figure, put a pin in this one because this will figure in the, in the case later. It had two kitchen timers in there in addition to an electronic countdown timer.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Which was I guess the thing that started beeping faster and faster.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And then some decoy wires. You always got to have those if you're, if you're making a bomb.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. But I mean like that's pretty smart. So there's decoy wires. There are apparently also stickers that said like don't do it or you know, skull and crossbones or rat poison, whatever.

[Chuck Bryant]

Skinny and sweet.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And, oh, that's a good 9 to 5 reference, man.

[Chuck Bryant]

I just saw that the other night.

[Josh Clark]

So it was a homemade bomb, but it was by all accounts a well made bomb too. And it worked. Which I think is one of the big, the big questions about any homemade bomb is whether it will actually work or not. And this one worked. It's with deadly effect.

[Chuck Bryant]

This. That's right. So the, the most important thing they found in this car though were some letters, some handwritten notes addressed to bomb hostage. So one of them said, I mean, these were instructions basically on what this guy should do, which further kind of cemented like, hey, this guy's probably telling the truth. It said, go rob this bank of 250 grand. And then very strangely outlined this little scavenger hunt basically to where eventually you will land upon the keys in combination to get you out of this thing by going all over town and finding these various hidden notes. And at the last note you will be able to free yourself.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, the last one will give you the keys and the combination. But you better hurry because you have a limited amount of time. If you stop and think you're going to waste time, you're going to die. We can detonate this remotely and we're going to be following you. It was written pretty crazily have you read any of the note?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So, like there, it's, it's got a lot of, like, just like a lot of jump, jump cuts or jump scares in it, you know, like you'll. It's like, go do this and then go do that after that, and then don't try anything funny. We're going to blow you up, you know? Yeah, it has those every once in a while. And there's drawings in there of where he could find like, like the notes and all that. So that he made it as far as the first note, which was McDonald's. It was in that, that McDonald's that shared a parking lot with the P bank. That was where the first note was. So he, he made it to that. That McDonald's grabbed that note and that note was directing him out of town to another note. And he didn't make it that far. But when the cops caught up with him.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So the scavenger hunt was he, like you said, he, he had gotten just to the one place. So the cops then say, well, here's what we're going to do. We're going to complete this scavenger hunt.

[Josh Clark]

They. They were like, whoa, you just blew my mind. That's some great policing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Should we take a break?

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. Scavenger hunt has just started by the Kawpas. We'll be right back. You're a details person, checking reviews, reading nutritional info, even terms and conditions. So when donating, check out GiveWell, an independent resource offering rigorous, transparent research on top of giving opportunities. Their recent analysis of cash transfers in Africa includes over 300 footnotes, perfect for meticulous readers. For 17 years, GiveWell has researched charities, directing funding to the highest impact options. Over 125,000 donors have used GiveWell to contribute more than $2 billion, saving an estimated 200,000 lives. GiveWell's research is free, helping donors make informed decisions. Donations to recommended funds are tax deductible, and GiveWell takes no cut. If you've never used GiveWell to donate, you can have your donation matched up to $100 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last. To claim your match, go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter stuff you should know at checkout. Make sure they know that you heard about GiveWell from stuff you should know to get your donation matched again. That's givewell.org to donate or find out more. This is David Eagleman, host of the science podcast Inner Cosmos. For Valentine's Day, we're diving into the question, what is love from the brain's point of view? What does love have to do with how you were raised? Or the symmetry of someone's face or the smell of their underarms? Why does the character of love change throughout our lives?

[Josh Clark]

Why is heartbreak like drug withdrawal?

[Chuck Bryant]

And what does any of this have to do with sweaty T shirts or rom coms or monogamous animals and the future of love and AI? Join me for this week's Inner Cosmos. For a deep dive into the neurobiology.

[Josh Clark]

Of love, listen to Inner Cosmos with.

[Chuck Bryant]

David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Josh Clark]

Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Andrea Waters King]

Yo, what up? It's your girl Jess. Hilarious. And I think it's time to acknowledge that I'm not just a comedian. It's time to add uncertified therapists to my credentials. Because each and every Wednesday, I'm fixing your mess on carefully Reckless on the Black Effect podcast network. Got problems in your relationship? Come to me. Your best friend acting shady? Come to me. Thinking about cursing that one stank auntie out at the next family gathering. Do it, but come to me before you do because I cussed all mine out before you wanna fight your co workers, come to me. Baby daddy mad cause you got a boyfriend, come to me. Thought you was the father, but you notice. Come to me. I can't promise I won't judge you, but I can guarantee that I will help you. As a daughter, a sister, a mother, and an entrepreneur, I've learned a lot in life, so I'm using my own perspective and experiences to help you fix your mess. Send me your situation and let's fix it as a family. Listen to carefully Reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to my legacy.

[Josh Clark]

I'm Martin Luther King iii, and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and.

[Chuck Bryant]

Our dear friends Mark and Craig Kilb, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives.

[Andrea Waters King]

Each week, we'll sit down with inspiring figures like David Oyelo, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter. And their plus one, they're ride or die as they share stories never heard before about their remarkable journey.

[Josh Clark]

Listen to my legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is my legacy.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we're back.

[Josh Clark]

So the scavenger hunt's still on, Chuck, and they make it. The cops follow from the note that Brian Wells had to the next clue and they Found the. The next note, and that directed them to another place, Even further out of town, to where they found the jar where the note was supposed to be. But the note was gone.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And they don't really know what that means. They didn't know if it was just something to keep them busy, preoccupied. They didn't know if the person who was designing the scavenger hunt Got interrupted Or knew that the cops were around and they were doing it sort of in real time. But at any rate, the. Unfortunately, the scavenger hunt Just kind of fizzled out. Because that was kind of a cool part of the story.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it really was. It was like. It's one of the things that makes this just an incredibly bizarre crime. Why the scavenger hunt? It's going to keep coming up again and again, Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So when the scavenger hunt ran out, the trail actually went cold. The case started to get cold. For a few months, the cops sniffed around Brian wiles, Tried to figure out, you know, what. Why him, what happened with him, and they went back to his place of employment, and they. They kind of checked out the kind of person he was. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And they very smartly said, well, wait a minute. Why don't we. Why don't we check out what that last delivery was supposed to be? There may be a clue there. And it was an interesting place. It was at the.

[Josh Clark]

It was.

[Chuck Bryant]

You could only get there by dirt road, and it was right next to a TV transmission tower In a kind of a remote wooded area.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And cops combed the area, Found shoe prints that matched wells. They found those classic, iconic geometro tire tracks that everyone recognizes by sight. But there really weren't any more clues, as far as the cops were concerned, at that location. So where the cops had found a dead end. A reporter and photographer for the erie times news Went and did a little investigating of his own and saw this house, you know, next door, where the pizza was delivered, and said, well, you know, I'm just gonna go knock on the door. This guy answers the door, and his name was bill rothstein. And he actually said, you know, you can look around if you want. He's 59 years old. He's a handyman, Wasn't married, Had lived there his whole life. And apparently, he seemed really smart, Had a very articulate way of speaking, and apparently was fluent in several different languages. And the journalist kind of did a little poking around and didn't really see much and took off. But he made contact with bill rothstein. He's the first person that kind of went a knocking.

[Josh Clark]

Right. But nothing came of it. And the cops, as far as I know, never went and met with Bill Rothstein, even though his house was right next to the delivery place where Wells was supposedly accosted. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And then, like I said, the case has gone cold by this time. If a couple months have gone by, the whole. The whole. I mean, you've got this crime, this very public caper that's captured the public's attention. A guy died by. By being blown up while the. While under police supervision. And the. There's no leads, there's no nothing. And then finally several weeks, a few months, I think after the call, there's a 911 call from Bill Rothstein. And he tells the police that in his freezer, he has one of those serial killer chest freezers. There's actually a body, a man's body, and that it is not someone he murdered, but he helped cover up the murder of this man who is the boyfriend of Bill Rothstein's ex girlfriend from way, way back in the day. And now the chain of events has been set off.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right? And if you're like me and you start hearing wife of the ex girlfriend's dad's cousin, your brain gets a little jumbled. So just very plainly, he used to date this woman. This woman called him up and said, hey, I've murdered my current boyfriend. Or was it her husband?

[Josh Clark]

It was her boyfriend. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And she said, and I need your help here. I blasted him with a. With a shotgun. And I know we dated, oh, 20 years ago, but will you come help me out? Because they were still in contact, I guess they. They remained friends, I guess. So in this racked Bill Rothstein, apparently he. He thought about committing suicide. Apparently there was even a note they found. Suicide note. But he maintained, like you said with the cops, that he didn't have anything to do with anything but most of the cleanup.

[Josh Clark]

The cleanup. Getting rid of the murder weapon and then holding on to the body.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but what. Which. The reason he held on the body, he was supposed to get, apparently supposed to grind this body up. And that's where he finally stopped short and was like, jesus, I can't do this.

[Josh Clark]

And he said he told the cops that the reason he called them finally is because since he wasn't going through with grinding up the body, he was worried what this woman, Marjorie Diehl Armstrong, was gonna do to him.

[Chuck Bryant]

He's like, I dated this lady, right? She's not a nice person.

[Josh Clark]

And so when he says Marjorie Diehl Armstrong to the eerie cops. Just alarm bells start going off. Because by this time already, Marjorie Deal Armstrong was a local legend as far as criminals are concerned. She was this very, very bright woman who I think at the age of 35, back in the 80s, had been indicted for killing one of her boyfriends. Shot him six times. She played that she had killed him in self defense, that he was an abuser of her. And she was actually acquitted a few years after that. She was married to a guy named Armstrong, and he showed up at the hospital with a head trauma and actually died of a cerebral hemorrhage. But there was no coroner's inquest or anything like that. And so it just was something suspicious, you know, the second significant other of this woman to die under suspicious or violent circumstances. So when Bill Rothstein said, I'm worried about what Marjorie Dieh Armstrong's gonna do to me, the cops seem to have taken it very seriously.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, extremely seriously. Cause the next day they arrested her.

[Josh Clark]

That's pretty serious.

[Chuck Bryant]

For murder. And about a year and a half later, a little short of that, she pled guilty, but mentally ill, she was sentenced to 7 to 20. And then Rothstein, for his part, eventually died of cancer in 2004.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And so you said that he had considered killing himself and even wrote a suicide note. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

There's something very, very odd on Bill Rothstein's suicide note. And again, he didn't kill himself. He died of cancer. But he was able to actually show the cops where a suicide note was and they read it. And the first line of it, from what I understand, was, this has nothing to do with the collar bomb heist or the Brian Wells murder.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's a. It's a weird thing to put if you had nothing to do with that, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Right. It's just a very odd thing to do.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's like when the cops come in and you go, there's nothing under the bed. Don't. There's no reason to look there.

[Josh Clark]

Right. They said, we just want to make sure your fire alarm is working.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Clark]

Part of a community service.

[Chuck Bryant]

Cool. But the bed's fine.

[Josh Clark]

So that is a very weird thing to say. And that definitely piqued the interest of the cops. But like you said, the cops convicted or the state convicted Marjorie Deal Armstrong of the murder of James Rhoden or Jim Roden. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

She's already in prison. And when she's in prison, somehow, this is what I'm unclear on. Somehow it comes up, or she starts talking or Something like that. That Jim Rhoden's death very much had to do with the Wells case, with Brian Wells murder, this collarbomb heist, and that she knows a lot about it. And if they'll transfer her to a minimum security prison close to Erie, she'll. She'll start talking.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, she asked for the old Hannibal Lecter treatment.

[Josh Clark]

So is that how it came up? Like, she approached them? Because I'm unclear on that.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, I think so. This is in the Wired article. It said that there was a phone call from a state cop who had just met with her about something unrelated, like a different homicide. And she just. And it kind of makes sense, though, now, actually, when we, as we will learn. She talked a lot.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, a lot.

[Chuck Bryant]

So it doesn't surprise me that another cop was just meeting with her about something unrelated. She's like, by the way, that whole collarbone thing, I got all the skinny on that.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So there's a couple of things going on here by then. By the time she calls the cops, the cops have already spoken, apparently with several informants that have shared cells with her or spent time with her in jail already, who are saying, like, this lady is the mastermind of that collarbomb heist that's making you guys look bad.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And eventually, you know, when they met with her about this, she. She admitted that she was involved, but. Well, she didn't admit she was involved in the plot, but she said, I knew about it. I gave him. I gave him those two kitchen timers, and I was really close by when it happened. And by the way, the guy who blew up with the collarbomb, Mr. Wells, he was actually in on it, too. And Rothstein headed the whole thing up.

[Josh Clark]

Right. But for her deal, Armstrong, she said, but I had nothing to do with it, even though I had all these other little things to do with it. I never met Brian Wells. I didn't know Brian Wells. I had nothing to do with his death aside from supplying the kitchen timers.

[Chuck Bryant]

And knowing all about it.

[Josh Clark]

Right, exactly. So now it's just getting weird, right, because there's the Jim Roden murder, who she says that she killed because he was abusing her, who Rothstein said she killed over a dispute with money, but is now she's saying is tied to the Wells case and which she knows a lot about, but really nothing about and had nothing to do with. So the cops are like, well, let's just get this lady to talk all we can. And one of the things they got out of her was her. She Agreed to a tour around Erie showing them all these places where she had been, and these were all places that were related to the crime. Like, I believe she said she'd been at the pizza delivery site. I think she said she'd been within a mile of the. Of the bank when it was robbed. Like, all of this stuff, she's just like, they just keep giving her this rope, and she's just wrapping it around her neck again and again and again. And then finally, Chuck, at the end of this car ride, after she's been interviewing with the cops multiple times, giving him tons of info, what does she say?

[Chuck Bryant]

She asks for immunity. At this point, after she had basically completely incriminated herself. And previous to all this, a lot more happened. There were four different informants who had come forward and said that this lady's been talking about this for a while. She very much had everything to do with it. And then a couple of months after she had started talking to the feds, another big break came. This witness came forward and said, hey, there's this crack dealer named Kenny Barnes.

[Josh Clark]

That is a crack dealer's name, Kenneth Barnes.

[Chuck Bryant]

And he was involved. They used to go fishing together. Armstrong, Deal Armstrong and Barnes. And she sang like a canary to him, basically, and said, here's what she did. She, her brother in law put him in touch with Barnes while he was already in jail on unrelated charges, basically. And so Barnes was already in prison, said, hey, I think I can shorten my time, so I'm going to try and get a reduced sentence at least by spilling the beans on Deal Armstrong.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And Barnes brother in law was who turned him into the cops.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So Barnes is like, oh, I'm already. I'm in jail for selling crack. That's way different from being, you know, very much involved in this collarbomb heist. So he said, okay, I'll tell you guys everything you want to know. I'll be your star witness. Just reduce my sentence for my involvement in this. And he started talking. When he started talking, it was at Marjorie Diehl Armstrong's trial, which was a pretty spectacular trial from all accounts.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And before the trial even he told his story was is that she wanted me to kill her father. He was spending what would end up being her inheritance, she felt, and so she wanted him dead. And so she was doing this collar bomb heist to raise money to pay me to kill her dad.

[Josh Clark]

Which, I mean, like, that's just the biggest face palm I've ever heard of.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. For a real.

[Josh Clark]

So, okay, we'll start Marjorie Deal Armstrong's trial after we take a break. How about that?

[Chuck Bryant]

Man, that sounds good.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is David Eagleman, host of the science podcast Inner Cosmos. For Valentine's Day, we're diving into the question, what is love from the brain's point of view? What does love have to do with how you were raised? Or the symmetry of someone's face or the smell of their underarms? Why does the character of love change throughout our lives?

[Josh Clark]

Why is heartbreak like drug withdrawal?

[Chuck Bryant]

And what does any of this have to do with sweaty T shirts or rom coms or monogamous animals and the future of love and AI? Join me for this week's Inner Cosmos. For a deep dive into the neurobiology.

[Josh Clark]

Of love, listen to Inner Cosmos with.

[Chuck Bryant]

David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Josh Clark]

Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Andrea Waters King]

Yo, what up? It's ya girl Jess. Hilarious. And I think it's time to acknowledge that I'm not just a comedian. It's time to add uncertified therapist to my credentials. Because each and every Wednesday, I'm fixing your mess on carefully Reckless on the Black Effect podcast network. Got problems in your relationship? Come to me. Your best friend acting shady? Come to me. Thinking about cursing that one stank auntie out at the next family gathering. Do it, but come to me before you did because I cussed all mine out before you wanna fight your co workers, come to me. Baby daddy mad cause you got a boyfriend, come to me. Thought you was the father, but you not come to me. I can't promise I won't judge you, but I can guarantee that I will help you. As a daughter, a sister, a mother, and an entrepreneur, I've learned a lot in life, so I'm using my own perspective and experiences to help you fix your mess. Send me your situation and let's fix it as a family. Listen to carefully Reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to my legacy.

[Josh Clark]

I'm Martin Luther King iii, and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and.

[Chuck Bryant]

Our dear friends Mark and Craig Kilburger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives.

[Andrea Waters King]

Each week, we'll sit down with inspiring figures like David Oyelowo, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter. And their plus one, they'll ride or die as they share stories never heard before about their remarkable journey.

[Josh Clark]

Listen to my legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your Podcasts. This is my legacy. Everyone's forgotten who runs this valley.

[Chuck Bryant]

Time to remind them. Yellowstone fans, step into the Yellowstone universe.

[Josh Clark]

Our family legacy news this ranch and I'm a protector of my life.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hosted by Bobby Bones, the official Yellowstone podcast takes you deeper into the franchise.

[Josh Clark]

That'S captivated millions worldwide.

[Chuck Bryant]

Action explore, untold behind the scenes stories, exclusive cast interviews and in depth discussions about the themes and legacy of Yellowstone. You know, the first stuns to settle this valley fighting was all they knew. Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the ranch, welcome to the Yellowstone. Bobby Bones has everything you need to stay connected to the Yellowstone phenomenon.

[Josh Clark]

I look forward to it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Listen to the official Yellowstone podcast Now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Clark]

Let's go to work. Okay, Chuck. So before Marjorie Diehl Armstrong goes to trial, and remember, she's already in prison for the murder of Jim Rhoden. Right. Shooting him in the back with a 12 gauge shotgun.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

Bill Rothstein is dead. I want to call him Ace Rothstein so bad, but Bill Rothstein is dead. He died of lymphoma a couple years before. And by the time Marjorie Diehl Armstrong and is brought to trial for her involvement as the mastermind of the Collarbomb plot, they have to verify that she's actually mentally competent to stand trial. And that's kind of touchy because remember when she, she was charged with killing her boyfriend back In, I think 1984 or 1986.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

She was, she was deemed incompetent seven times by psychiatrists before the judge finally said, I'm, I'm throwing all that out and deciding that she is competent. We're going to go ahead with the trial.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

They also found like 400 pounds of butter and 700 pounds of cheese in her, in her house when they were investigating that particular murder. And in, in between 1984 and the time she was tried in the collarbone heist, she had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. So it was actually kind of questionable whether she was mentally competent to stand trial. And right as they were about to start the proceedings, I think the judge ruled that she was competent to stand trial. She was diagnosed with cancer herself.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

So they waited for the cancer diagnosis, her prognosis, and the cancer doctor came back and said three to seven years. And the prosecutor said, giddy up.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. So previous to this, she, she had gotten the indictment. But in that indictment, it's very important that she was not, I mean, granted, she was the only one technically indicted. But they. In the indictment, it said that Rothstein was definitely a conspirator. And Wells, the man who was. Who was the victim, supposedly, he was definitely involved in this thing from the beginning.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. As a very important thing that. That showed up in this indictment.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they said he agreed to rob this bank. He thought it was a fake bomb, and he was told this scavenger hunt was a ruse to fool the cops. And if and when he did get caught, he could say, you know, I was just following orders, basically what he did.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And so Brian Wells family did not like this at all. Apparently, during the. The. The press conference where the DA of Erie county is announcing this, you know, this case is closed. This is the indictment that they have. The Wells. Some of Brian Wells sisters were shouting liar at her. They did not take the idea that their brother was an accomplice in this at all very well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of. There was a lot of back and forth about whether Welles was in on the thing from the beginning or whether or not he was in from the beginning and then at one point wanted out and was forced to do this, or whether he was forced from the beginning. Everyone's telling a different story. And, you know, basically, the trial is where we will learn, you know, if all that is true, what really happened.

[Josh Clark]

So Marjorie Deal, Armstrong's lawyer, said, you know, to heck with caution. Let's put you on the stand, okay? You've already incriminated yourself multiple times. Why not do it in open court, too? And she apparently was quite a. She put on quite a performance on the stand over, like, two days, I think, five and a half hours of testimony. She yelled, she cried, she berated the prosecutor and her own lawyer. When she did mention Brian Wells, she said, I've never met the guy. I learned of his death when everybody else did on the TV news. And she stuck with her story, though, that she had nothing to do with this. She knew a little bit about it. She knew the conspirators. The real mastermind was Bill Rothstein, and it wasn't her. That's what she maintained, though, throughout the trial and even afterward.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. But before she took the stand a few days earlier is when they trotted out Ken Barnes, and he took the stand, and he said he had, you know, by the time she took the stand, he had given a different account of the story than she would later do. So he got up there and said she was behind all this. She was the Mastermind Rothstein was involved. She just recruited him. Basically, she recruited Wells because Wells needed money. And here's where the prostitutes come into play. Apparently Wells had a relationship with a prostitute who was also a crack addict. So he would buy crack to give her, presumably as trade for sex. He ended up falling into debt with these crack dealers and needed money.

[Josh Clark]

And so basically the plot of Moulin Rouge.

[Chuck Bryant]

And he contends Barnes did that, that up until the day of the crime, Wells was thought this whole thing was fake, realized that it was a double cross, it was a real bomb, and he tried to run away and was tackled, and they put a gun to his head and locked him into this device.

[Josh Clark]

So imagine this, Chuck. Imagine being Brian Wells and you're agreeing to put on what you are presuming is a fake collar bomb to go carry out a real bank robbery, because you need money, because you're indebted to crack dealers, because you borrowed crack from them to give to your girlfriend, who's a prostitute who you have to give crack to to be with. And then you find out on the day of that this is a real bomb and they're putting it on you whether you like it or not. What a horrible. What a horrible turn of events for this poor guy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, it's just so sad, no matter how you slice it. And then if you take his family's. If you take his family's opinion that he was 100% innocent, that he really was delivering pizzas and was accosted and had nothing to do with any of this, which I take with a pretty big grain of salt. I mean, that's just as bad, but it's bad either way, whether he was an accomplice at one point or not. It's super sad. There's a very sad thread that's running through this story in the form of Brian Wells, you know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah, and on the final day of her trial, at the very, very end of her taking the stand, is when she finally said that she didn't knew him, never met him, and the first time she had ever laid eyes on him was on the news that day.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Basically, he and Marjorie Deal Armstrong are fishing, right? They're fishing buddies. He's somebody that she would turn to. And she's finding out that her father is blowing through her inheritance and she wants to put a stop to it. And so she approaches Barnes to get him to kill her father. But to get that 250k that he says he will kill her father for, she's got to rob A bank. So she turns to her friend Bill Rothstein to come up with this collar bomb to put it on this other person, Brian Wells, who's going to carry this out. And, oh, by the way, we're also going to come up with a scavenger hunt to either throw the cops off or to actually make Brian Wells feel more comfortable, give him some sort of COVID in case he is caught. And that's what we're going to go with. Go, team. And Marjorie Deal Armstrong said, that's preposterous. That wasn't me. Kenneth Barnes said, that's. That's exactly what happened. And then Bill Rothstein wasn't alive to contradict any of it.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

So she's sentenced. Right. She's convicted as the mastermind of this plot.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. The jury took about 11 hours, and she was convicted of armed. Armed bank robbery, conspiracy in using a destructive device in a crime of violence.

[Josh Clark]

That's a big one. I'll bet. I'll bet that carries a hefty sentence with it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And she would. She would die in prison just like her prognosis said she didn't. I think she lasted a few years.

[Josh Clark]

No, they gave her three to seven years. And she lasted seven.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So she finally passed away. And, you know, that's kind of the end of the story. Even though there is a retired FBI investigator named Jim Fisher who said, I think they got this all wrong. I think that Rothstein was the guy the whole time, and he makes a decently compelling case. But it's, you know, everyone's dead now.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Jim Fisher's gone a little bit down the rabbit hole, if you ask me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, it's kind of hard to tell with literally everyone having died.

[Andrea Waters King]

But.

[Chuck Bryant]

For his money, he thinks it was Rothstein.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And so there's probably not many people who are familiar with the case who would say that it Rothstein who built the bomb. But what Jim Fisher's saying is like, Bill Rothstein was behind everything. And Marjorie Diehl Armstrong murdering Jim Roden was just like a gift that dropped in Bill Rothstein's lap that he could use to make all these puppets dance, including the cops. And that the whole point of it was to create this elaborate scheme, this elaborate crime that would puzzle people for years and years to come, which it's doing that and that. That was the point. And that Brian Wells was going to die one way or another. Right. Because I think the FBI said they concluded the whole scavenger hunt was a hoax and that Brian Wells was never going to survive this, didn't they?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So this is Jim Fisher's position. But like you said, now that everybody's dead, really the only question is, you know, just how complicit was Brian Wells is the last big question.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

And then there's one other guy who seems to have got off scot free named Floyd Stockton. Did you look into him?

[Chuck Bryant]

A little bit.

[Josh Clark]

So he's a guy who was there. He was there. He supposedly handed Rothstein the bomb to put around Brian Wells neck. He was staying with Rothstein as a buddy on his couch fleeing a rape charge in Washington. And somehow for some reason he got immunity and was not indicted, even though he was very much involved in this. And he got off scot free. And Brian Wells family is going nuts over the fact that this guy's out there walking free, that he was a part of this caper and he didn't see a second inside of a jail.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if there were more people involved even.

[Josh Clark]

So what do you think? Do you think Brian Wells was, was complicit? And if so, how much?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh man, I don't know. I mean, it sounds like I kind of believe the story that they were all in it together and he, he was probably double crossed. But this is just from reading about this thing many, many years later.

[Josh Clark]

Do you think Marjorie Deal Armstrong was the mastermind?

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know either. Maybe we'll never know. But we might. But probably not. You got anything else?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got nothing else.

[Josh Clark]

All right, well, if you want to know more about the Collarbomb case, you can type that word in the the search bar, your favorite search engine, and it will likely bring up a very great article on Wired from Rich Shapiro. Read that. Start there. It's great. And since I said Rich Shapiro, it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm gonna go with one on emoji and John Adams. Hey guys. Enjoyed the recent podcast about the history of emojis and emoticons. Reminded me of a discovery I made in the diaries of John Adams that makes a historical figure who's sometimes described as aloof seem completely charming. When the future president was about 22 years old, he made an entry in his diary in 1756 saying a cloudy morning about 10. And he drew a little sunshine, break out a warm day. He uses a little line drawing on the sun that I always call an 18th century emoji. He liked the little creation so much, he reused it a month later in the same diary, A Misty Morning, Little Sunshine break out about noon on the Massachusetts Historical Society website. The text of his letters and diaries is faithfully transcribed, but in the cases a. In these cases, a parenthetical note tells readers that there are small drawings of the son and advises them to refer to the scans of the handwritten page where you can actually see this. Apparently he grew out of his habit, though, because his later diaries do not use the adorable little sun. Keep up the great work. My wife and I host a local history podcast for Boston. It's tightly scripted. Oh, man, he didn't tell me what it was. I would have totally shouted it out.

[Josh Clark]

What?

[Chuck Bryant]

I know. Big, big missed opportunity there, Jake. One of these days we'll be confident enough to have an unscripted conversation like you guys, too. And that is from Jake Sconiers.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, so everybody just look up Jake Scanyers Boston history podcast. And he'll probably bring it up, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, probably.

[Josh Clark]

So thanks a lot, Jake. Thanks for keeping up the good fight up there. That's pretty cool. Good story, too. If you want to get in touch with us like Jake did, tell us about your podcast. That's great. You can send us all an email the stuff podcastowstuffworks.com and as always, join us at our home on the web stuffyou should know dot com.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Welcome to my legacy.

[Josh Clark]

I'm Martin Luther King iii, and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and.

[Chuck Bryant]

Our dear friends Mark and Craig Kilberger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives.

[Andrea Waters King]

Join us for heartfelt conversations with remarkable guests like David Oyelowo, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter.

[Josh Clark]

Listen to my legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is my legacy.

[Andrea Waters King]

Yo, what up? It's your girl Jess. Hilarious. And I think it's time to acknowledge that I'm not just a comedian. It's time to add uncertified therapists to my credentials. Because each and every Wednesday I'm fixing your mess on cathfully Reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Got problems in your relationship? Come to me. Your best friend acting shady? Come to me. Thought you was the father but you not come to me. I can't promise I won't judge you but I can guarantee that I will help you. Listen to carefully Reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The OGs of Uncensored Motherhood are back.

[Chuck Bryant]

And badder than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila, and we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices Podcast brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday.

[Andrea Waters King]

Yeah, we're moms, but not your mommy. Historically, men talk too much and women.

[Chuck Bryant]

Have quietly listened, and all that stops here.

[Andrea Waters King]

If you like witty women, then this is your try. Listen to the Good Moms Bad Choices.

[Chuck Bryant]

Podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect.

[Andrea Waters King]

Podcast network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you go to find your podcast.