Selects: The Deal With Doulas

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know – Episode: "The Deal With Doulas"

Release Date: March 29, 2025

Hosts: Josh Clark and Charles W. Chuck Bryant
Producer: iHeartPodcasts
Episode Focus: An in-depth exploration of doulas—their roles, history, misconceptions, training, and the benefits they offer to expectant parents.

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1. Introduction to Doulas

In this enlightening episode, Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant delve into the world of doulas, exploring their significance in modern childbirth. The hosts express their admiration for doulas, emphasizing the invaluable support they provide to mothers during labor and delivery.

Chuck Bryant [06:31]: "Doulas are people who are, generally women, but not always, who are childbirth coaches. They coach you through the process."

2. History of Doulas

The term "doula" originates from ancient Greece, where female servants attended to women during childbirth. This practice continued through various civilizations until the early 20th century when hospitals began to dominate the birthing process, sidelining traditional support systems like midwives and family members.

Charles W. Chuck Bryant [03:13]: "Doula means female servant or female slave, depending on who you're talking about."

With the resurgence of natural childbirth movements in the latter part of the 20th century, doulas re-emerged as essential support figures in labor and delivery settings.

3. Roles and Responsibilities

Doulas serve as advocates and emotional supporters for expectant mothers. Their responsibilities include:

• Emotional Support: Providing comfort through massage, breathing techniques, and encouragement.
• Advocacy: Ensuring the mother's birth plan is respected and communicating her wishes to medical staff.
• Education: Preparing parents for the childbirth process through prenatal meetings and providing information about what to expect.

Chuck Bryant [07:47]: "They're your advocate. They're your birth advocate to make sure, or at least as best they can, to try to ensure that the birth plan that you feel best about is the one that you end up with."

4. Misconceptions About Doulas

Several misunderstandings surround the role of doulas:

• Medical Procedures: Doulas are not medical professionals; they do not perform procedures like administering drugs or handling medical equipment.

  Chuck Bryant [21:09]: "Some people think that doulas are authorized or trained to give birth. That is not true."

• Natural Birth Only: Contrary to popular belief, doulas support all types of births, whether natural, medicated, home, or hospital births.

  Chuck Bryant [21:41]: "They're there to support you in whatever kind of birth you want to have."

5. Training and Certification

Becoming a doula typically involves:

• Certification Programs: Organizations like DONA, CAPPA, and the American Pregnancy Association offer training and certification.
• Apprenticeship: Practical experience under the mentorship of an experienced doula.
• Continuous Education: Staying updated with the latest in childbirth practices and medical advancements.

Chuck Bryant [28:02]: "There are more and more programs now and more certification and licensing programs out there."

6. Hiring a Doula

Key considerations when hiring a doula include:

• Personality Match: Ensuring the doula's demeanor aligns with the family's needs.
• References: Seeking recommendations from friends or through certified doula directories.
• Initial Meetings: Conducting interviews to gauge compatibility and discuss expectations.

Charles W. Chuck Bryant [38:56]: "You want to have a good personality match too. So you should talk to your doula on the phone at the very least."

7. Costs and Insurance

The cost of hiring a doula varies based on location and experience:

• Urban Areas: Cities like New York and Los Angeles may have higher rates, often ranging from $2,500 to $3,500.
• Rural Areas: Fees can be more affordable, typically between $600 to $1,000.
• Insurance Coverage: States like Oregon and Minnesota offer Medicaid reimbursements for certified doulas, expanding accessibility.

Charles W. Chuck Bryant [33:53]: "If you live in Oregon and Minnesota though, Medicaid will reimburse your full doula expenses for a certified doula, which is pretty awesome."

8. Benefits Backed by Studies

Numerous studies validate the positive impact of doulas on childbirth outcomes:

• Shorter Labors: On average, labors are reduced by approximately 40 minutes.
• Improved APGAR Scores: Babies receive higher scores during initial health assessments.
• Reduced Intervention Rates: Lower usage of pain medication, forceps, vacuum-assisted deliveries, and C-sections.
• Enhanced Emotional Well-being: Mothers report fewer negative feelings about childbirth.
• Higher Breastfeeding Initiation: Increased likelihood of starting breastfeeding.

Chuck Bryant [35:07]: "Higher APGAR scores, fewer negative feelings about childbirth... and there was basically nothing that could point at that said having a doula was a negative in any way."

9. Types of Doulas

Doulas specialize in various aspects of childbirth and beyond:

• Antepartum Doulas: Support mothers during pregnancy.
• Labor Doulas: Provide support during the actual childbirth process.
• Postpartum Doulas: Assist with breastfeeding, diaper changes, and adjustment after birth.
• Death Doulas: Offer emotional support during end-of-life care, analogous to birth doulas.

Chuck Bryant [40:53]: "If you want to help a family or a person or both through end of life care, there are people you can hire just to do that."

10. Listener Stories and Anecdotes

The hosts share personal experiences and listener stories to illustrate the real-world application and impact of doulas:

• Crowded Delivery Rooms: Chuck recounts the overwhelming number of people present during his child’s birth, highlighting the streamlined support provided by a doula amidst medical professionals.

  Chuck Bryant [24:11]: "I was shocked at how many people were in the room."

• Professional Challenges: Discussions around doulas balancing affordability and professional standards, including tensions within the doula community regarding pricing and accessibility.

  Charles W. Chuck Bryant [21:09]: "There's a big debate over whether doulas are undervalued or underselling themselves."

11. Conclusion

Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant wrap up the episode by emphasizing the essential role doulas play in modern childbirth. They advocate for the integration of doulas into the birthing process to enhance both the physical and emotional experiences of mothers and their families.

Chuck Bryant [39:47]: "A good doula will get on board with that. Or if they aren't on board with that, then they probably shouldn't be working with you."

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Key Takeaways:

• Doulas Provide Crucial Support: Beyond medical assistance, doulas offer emotional and informational support that can lead to better childbirth outcomes.

• Increasing Accessibility: With some states covering doula services through Medicaid, more families can benefit from their support.

• Diverse Roles: From birth to death, doulas adapt their support to meet the unique needs of individuals and families.

• Research-Backed Benefits: Studies consistently show that the presence of a doula improves both maternal and neonatal health outcomes.

Recommended For: Expectant parents, healthcare professionals, and anyone interested in understanding the multifaceted role of doulas in childbirth and beyond.

Transcript

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[Chuck Bryant]

This is a message from sponsor Intuit. TurboTax, you know, doing taxes was getting frustrated by your forms. Now taxes is uploading your forms with a snap, and a TurboTax expert will do your taxes for you. One who's backed by the latest tech which cross checks millions of data points for absolute accuracy. All of which makes it easy for you to get the most money back, guaranteed. Get an Expert now on TurboTax.com, only available with TurboTax Live full service. See guarantee [e-mail] guarantees. So what's the deal with doulas, everybody? That's my question to you on this wonderful Saturday morning. This one goes back to December 12, 2017. Doulas do great work. They're wonderful people and they bring babies into the world. So I hope you enjoy the deal with doulas.

[Josh Clark]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there. And this is Stuff youf Should Know.

[Chuck Bryant]

The podcast Childbirth Edition.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. We are traipsing into more territory.

[Chuck Bryant]

What does that mean?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I don't know. I mean, we've done two on, you know, feeding babies. Yeah, done. Female puberty.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

This will. This will get into childbirth a little bit. So. Yeah, we're not afraid. I don't care. Yeah, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

[Chuck Bryant]

You can be a male doula.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You can. Although I. This is the only article I ran across that. And did you find anything about that anywhere else?

[Chuck Bryant]

No. I mean, it happens. It's just super rare. It happens because, I mean, we'll go ahead and spoil it. Generally, doulas are. Well, let's just get into this. Generally, doulas are women who have already had a baby.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Not even just women, but women who have had a baby so they can really know how to help another lady. Have A baby?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah. And this is actually. So this is an ancient thing that's kind of come back around full circle. And even the name doula is a Greek term used way back in the classical Greek days, when a woman giving birth would have female servants attending to her during birth, helping her with it, probably feeding her some grapes, waving palm fronds on her, that kind of thing. So doula means female servant or female slave, depending on who you're talking about.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And after, you know, ancient Greece fell into Rome and the Roman Empire fell, and all of civilization took this weird course throughout it, all women were helped by other women while they were giving birth. Basically up until about the first third, first half of the 20th century in the west, where hospitals entered, and all of a sudden it was just the mom giving birth surrounded by a bunch of nurses and doctors.

[Chuck Bryant]

Is that true?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Because I could see scenarios where there were women in the birth room helping along.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think once you started to get into hospitals and the physicians in the hospital starting asserting their authority more and more, especially through drugs. Like, I saw that when hospitals kind of took over the birthing process or took responsibility for it from the family and from midwives and moved it into the hospital, they used to administer a lot of sedatives as part of the birthing process, as part of labor. You know, you can understand why they would. But then there were all sorts of complications from it, problems from it, so they stopped giving sedatives as much. And about that time, women who were giving birth started to, like, kind of come out of it and look around and say, whoa, it's just me and you guys in here. I need some family members in here.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And at the time, like, if you were a dad, you were not in there. You were not in the delivery room at all. You were out in what was called the stork club, handing out cigars, maybe pacing. And the reason why was because to the doctors involved, it was just another medical procedure. Right. So you're not going to have randos who have nothing to do with the actual procedure in the room during a procedure. They treated childbirth the same way. But women started to say, no, I need more than just you people who I've never met before, really attending to the birth of my child. And so dads started to come in, and then more family members, and then now doulas have definitely kind of come back like they were originally. That's my understanding of the whole thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So doulas, we haven't even said what that is. Yet. And that would probably help clear it up. If you don't know, doulas are people, like we said, generally women, but not always, who are childbirth coaches. They coach you through the process. They will, depending on the service they offer, will come on before, obviously you give birth and kind of prep you for what's going to happen. And this, I mean, it kind of depends on when your doula will come aboard in the process, but at the very least, they will help you in the delivery room, and they are your advocate to kind of coach you through this whole thing. And that term actually started in an article in 1969 by a woman named Dana Raphael, and then later on in a book in 1973 called the Tender Gift Breastfeeding. And that's when she brought this term back and said, you know, we're going to start calling these women doulas, and it's going to be a real job.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right. And I think at first. What was the name of the woman who brought it back?

[Chuck Bryant]

Dana Raphael.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So she had, like, a pretty good idea that was actually ahead of its time. When doulas really started to come into use and come into their own as a profession was in the 80s. And the reason why they came into wider use was because hospitals were going to C sections a lot. C sections went up from 1974.2% of live births in the U.S. involved C sections. Sixteen years later, in 1986, a quarter of live births in the US involved C sections. And there are a lot of complications with C sections. And so you could have your husband in there, you could have your mom in there, you could have friends, but they're just there for you. One of the first services that doulas started offering was to say, whoa, whoa. Does she really need that C section? Are you sure about that? Or are you just doing it because you can charge more money? I think that was overstating exactly the interaction they had, but that was the role they had was to basically provide a barrier between a doctor who wanted to just give a C section because he wanted to go home and the mom who really didn't want a C section.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And it's not just C sections. They're your advocate. They're your birth advocate to make sure, or at least as best they can, to try to ensure that the birth plan that you feel best about is the one that you end up with.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Things always change, of course, and a doula would never put you in danger by insisting on something. In fact, they can't, but they are. There to speak for you on your behalf, because as a mother in labor, you're going through a lot on your own. So it's nice to have someone that is just there to do that job.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And is coming from a place of empathy and sympathy and most importantly, experience. Like you said, most doulas have had children of their own, but they've also, after a while, attended other births, too. So they know what they're talking about. They know what to expect, and they can tell you what to expect, which can make the whole process easier, I would imagine, for any mother giving birth.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's definitely gained popularity in the 2000s, I think. I tried to find more recent statistics than 2012, but I couldn't. But in 2012, there were 6%. And this is in the United States. It's a very much. I know it does happen all over the world some, but it's sort of American American thing. 6% of people in 2012 used a doula versus 3% in 2006. And in that same survey, 27% of people said they would like to use a doula. So, you know, at least they're wishing or hopeful that they can.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. That was question eight. Would you like to use a doula? Yeah, 27% said. And so if you get the impression that, like, a doctor would not really prefer a doula to be in the labor and delivery room, you've kind of read between the lines there. Especially at first, the medical community saw doulas, as they were starting to really kind of come into use in the 80s, as basically meddling busybodies who could potentially put their patient's life in jeopardy. Right. But then in 1992, Doulas of North America was found founded Dona. It's like the first doula licensing body, certification and training and licensing body. And they were founded. It was founded by medical professionals, which kind of created a bridge. It bridged the gap or kind of got smoothed over the rough feelings between the medical community and the doula community. And it also added a real air of legitimacy to the profession of. Of being a doula.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And the impression I get now is that if you have a good doula who is good with people, which is ideally what your doula is, if your doula is not a people person, it's probably not going to be a good thing. But the idea I get is that doctors and nurses like having doulas there now because they can just concentrate on. They don't have to be the ones providing emotional, empathetic support, although they can still do that if they want. They can just concentrate on the medical aspects of it. And they know that they have a trained, hopefully licensed doula. And we'll get into that later on hand to sort of say, you know what, I don't have to deal with that part of things. You're in good hands with this doula and I can just concentrate on the medical parts.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Now all love doula.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

One of the other reasons or functions that doulas provide you kind of hit on is that they, they provide a service that hospitals used to provide through nurses. Right. Where if you had a nurse in a labor and delivery room, they wouldn't spend as much time or give you as much attention as say, like your mom would or a friend or your husband even. But they gave you a lot more early on than they did as surveillance of patients moved to electronics. Right. To where somebody could just kind of sit at the nurse's station and check on everybody and they didn't have to go into the rooms. And now you nurses were charged with watching even more people at once. Right. So the personal attention dropped dramatically as electronic surveillance of patients increased and the doulas kind of came in to fill that role as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Like they're sitting in the room with you and hanging out. They don't get called in like 20 minutes before you give birth. They're with you sometimes days and weeks beforehand, coaching you on what to expect and how you're going to go about this and what your plan is. And then on the day, like, even if dad is in there and the husband is in there providing support, that's great. But the doula is just that extra step and that extra measure of support that is super knowledgeable about what it's going to be like, where the husband might not exactly, you know, be able to lend the most insightful ear there. You know what I mean?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So you want to take a break?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, let's take a break and then we'll come back and talk about what to expect when you're expecting to work with a doula.

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[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so here's a misconception some people get. Some people think that doulas are authorized or trained to give birth. That is not true. They don't deliver babies. They don't perform any sort of medical procedures. They don't put an IV in your arm. They don't work the heart rate monitor. Most times they don't even work for the hospital. You have hired them independently. And again, they're just there to coach you. They're not even midwives. Midwives can deliver a baby, right?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. They're not allowed anywhere near the medical stuff, but they need to know what the medical stuff is so that they can say, well, this is what they're about to do, or this is what they're suggesting right now, and here are your options. And then also, when they're administering the medical stuff, which can be pretty uncomfortable pretty frequently, I would imagine, the doula is there to kind of tell the mom what to expect and to comfort her in all sorts of ways.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And maybe not even offer advice like, I think the idea is that a doula will lay it all out there so you can make an informed decision and not necessarily say, well, if I were you, this is what I would do.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah, that's a slippery slope right there. Because then all of a sudden if things go wrong, you can say, well, the doula told me to do that. And the doula's like, I'm toast.

[Chuck Bryant]

Doulas have to be great listeners. We already talked about the empathy piece. They have to be very empathetic and they will, like I said, start meeting before birth to answer any kind of questions, come up with that birth plan and really listen a lot to the wife and the husband. So everybody is on the same page. And like I said, on the day, things can change. But going in, you generally want to have a pretty good idea of everything from medications you might want to use, if any, to where you want to have the baby. The doula can come on board and kind of explain if they're knowledgeable, which hopefully they are, about the hospitals around you and maybe even help you pick out where you're gonna give birth.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, and I mean, if you already have an idea of what you want, the doula can, you know, kind of tell you how to make that happen. Or if you have no idea what you want, the doula can also tell you some other alternatives that you might not have thought of. I saw a parents magazine article about doulas. They laid out what basically what you can expect from the average doula for the doula's fees. One to two in person prenatal visits and then access to the doula for follow up questions through email or phone calls, their full attention and presence during your labor. And then sometimes, frequently. I get the idea, a follow up visit at your house after the baby comes home. Typically if you hire a doula, this is about the average you can expect to them. There's definitely a lot of differences. There's some will give you a little more, some will give you a little less, some will charge more, some will do it for free. It's just all over the place as far as what you're actually going to shell out and what you're going to get from a doula. But for most part, the doula is going to have met you before you give birth and then the doula will be there throughout the whole labor and delivery process.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, and it says in this article that there are specialist doulas like antepartum doulas and postpartum doulas and labor doulas that if you want an antepartum doula to be. If you want more than those two meetings, you might want to hire someone who will be with you for several weeks beforehand. Or if you want someone postpartum to be with you, to coach you through breastfeeding or changing diapers or just any of that kind of coaching, you can hire someone to do that. But I get the sense that doulas generally will sort of work with you on whatever kind of plan you want.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

It may cost a little extra, but I get the sense that a doula wouldn't say, like, nope, you get two meetings and that's it. They might be like, no, I'll come in for a third and fourth meeting. It'll be an extra of this much money, and I can hang with you for a week or two afterward.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Here and there, I found. I think it was through a Buzzfeed article, I stumbled upon a. There's a huge rift in the doula community, actually, between the typical traditional approach to being a doula, which is, I'll work with you on a sliding scale for how much you can afford, or this is my fee, but I'll throw in an extra visit just to make you feel like you're getting your money's worth, or I'll do it for free. I just want to help you. Because Dona's mission is that a doula for every mother who wants one. Like, every mother should have a doula, basically. Right. And then there's this other group called pro doula, and they can't stand doulas who charge less than, like, a decent amount for their services or do it for free. They actually call doulas who do this for free oxytocin vampires. Like, they're just there to bask in the reflective glow of this amazing experience that the mother just went through, the parents just went through, and they're really kind of kicking other doulas around and they're kind of bullies. It's in a really weird way, but there's like, this big debate over whether doulas are undervalued or underselling themselves.

[Chuck Bryant]

Huh.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But, I mean, I definitely get the idea that every woman who wants to have a doula should be able to have a doula regardless of her income, you know? Yeah, that makes sense to me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like a pro bono for people that don't have as much money. Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

On the other hand, I also get that if you are a doula and you're doing your job really well, that, yeah, you should expect to be paid. I think there's a happy medium. I don't think it has to be like, nope, this is the price, and anybody who goes underneath it should be ostracized from the doula community.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. The other thing about doulas, another misconception a lot of people think, is that it's just some hippie dippy thing, that if you don't want to. If you only want to have, like, a natural childbirth, then you get the doula in there. And they're not there for anything other than that. And that's not the case. They are there to support you in whatever kind of birth you want to have, whether it's a home birth or water birth, or whether or not you want to get an epidural or be loaded up on every pharmaceutical they offer. Mothers in labor, they're there just to have knowledge of all that stuff. So you know what you're getting into.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yep. And then. So during labor, this is where. This is where the doula shines. Right. They're there to help with alternatives to pain treatment. Right. So again, they can't administer any kind of drugs or anything. I would guess that they could even get in trouble for giving you an Advil. But they can do other things. Like they can massage you in ways that you had not ever heard of before. That helps with labor pain. I came across this one technique where they pull on a couple of toes, specific toes, and it helps actually move the labor along. If you have a slow labor, there's kneading techniques, there's stroking techniques, pressure on the bottom of your feet. There's all sorts of stuff they can do at various times throughout the labor and delivery process that can help alleviate the pain that you're going through. And that's one of the big roles that they played during labor.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. When my kid was born, it was. I was shocked at how many people were in the room. First of all.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

How many?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man, Baker's dozen. I mean, 20. Emily and I. Birth mom, obviously, our adoption counselor, who was a licensed doula. So she really served that function for the birth mom, which was really a great, great. Plus the doctor, I guess the. I'm not even sure what the roles are, what their technical titles are, but the doctor came in when it was go time and basically just checked things out and said, well, I think it's go time. And then he stepped out of the way, and these two nurses came in there, and 90 seconds later, there was a baby. So it was. And those were. So it was two nurses that was probably like, there's probably at least 12 people in that room.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Wow. That's a lot of people.

[Chuck Bryant]

It was crowded and fast and surreal and weird and amazing.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Even. Even weirder. They brought in carrot Top to cut the cord, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, Emily cut the cord.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Okay, cool.

[Chuck Bryant]

Emily actually helped sort of deliver in a way because, you know, they. They like to bring in, I guess, you know, in a regular biological birth, it would be the husband probably in there saying, hey, do you want to help hold the legs or do whatever? In this case, it was Emily and I just took a respectful position by the birth mom's head, sort of looking down that way. I was like, you know, she was like, you can go wherever you want to go. But I was like, you know, I'll just hang right here.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right? And Emily's like, that's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I just. I wanted to be there and, you know, I was helping support her as well. Holding her hand and patting her on the head and all that nice stuff.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That's cool, man.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it was amazing.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Did I ever tell you the story for when my niece Mila was born and my sister in law was giving birth and she let everybody in the labor room?

[Chuck Bryant]

I was surprised. You can have a party in there.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And when she really was going into, she was delivering. I stood back behind this curtain, right? And the doctor comes in and walks past me and kind of gives me a nod and I hear him go to the crowd. He's like, you know, there's like some guy standing behind that curtain, right? Like, yeah, he's supposed to be there. It was pretty funny.

[Chuck Bryant]

He's the. He's the ward creeper, Right, Exactly.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I'm like, okay, I've heard enough here. I'm going to the next room.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, well, let's take another break. Now that we've shared our stories, we'll come back and talk a little bit about how you become a doula right after this.

[Josh Clark]

Big shout out to you for making it through the hectic holiday season this new year. Get clean quality pregnancy nutrient support off your to do list, including Ritual's best selling essential prenatal multivitamin designed with 12 traceable key ingredients to support a healthy pregnancy. With big changes coming up, take the small steps now and start today with 30% off a three month [e-mail] podcast. These statements have not been evaluated by the food and drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

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[Caroline De Mor]

Why would you do that to me when I thought we were friends?

[Chuck Bryant]

We are friends.

[Caroline De Mor]

Los Angeles, 2021. A friendly neighbor appears out of nowhere and promises to make all my dreams come true.

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's not forget that David Bloom was a professional con artist. So you didn't stand a chance.

[Caroline De Mor]

But my dreams soon turned into a nightmare.

[David Blume]

Bloom generally targeted people with money, and.

[Caroline De Mor]

I was not alone.

[David Blume]

He took over 100 people for over $15 million. One of the victims was his own grandmother.

[Victim of David Blume]

I was married to David for almost 10 years. It was insane. I was barely functioning. And I just had this realization that he will not stop until he kills me.

[Caroline De Mor]

Getting a con artist to pay for their crimes isn't easy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Charge David blum.

[Caroline De Mor]

I'm Caroline D'Amore. Listen as I take down my scammer on Once Upon a con on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

All right, Chuck, so if you wanted to become a doula, basically, you start in training at age 3. You're sent off to Europe to apprentice at the 1 doula school in the world, and they make you eat a lot of magic cake. And then when you're 60, you get to actually start out on your own.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's exactly right. Okay, well, before you decide to become a doula, you need to give a lot of thought on what you're going to be getting into. You know, the hours are long at birth. Childbirth is very stressful, and especially if there are complications, it can be super stressful in a matter of life or death. So you got to be able to deal with that stuff in the moment and hang in there and be the birth coach that mom needs, you know, in the most stressful of situations. But then on the plus side, you get to see little BB's coming out on the reg. And what's better than that?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You know, I can't think of too many things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Talk about an oxytocin hit.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Maybe magic cake.

[Chuck Bryant]

Magic cake. You do not have to have a college degree. You don't have to have a high school degree.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You don't even have to be certified. It's not law that you have to be certified.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, you don't, but it is. There are more and more programs now and more certification and licensing programs out there. So if you want to be a doula, my advice is to go that route. You probably just get more work that way.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right. So when you're starting out, you would go to, if you wanted to get certified, you would go to one of the certifying bodies like Dona or what are the other two that are mentioned in here?

[Chuck Bryant]

There's one called Capa Kappa. Sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And then the American Pregnancy Association. All three of those certify and train doulas. Dona, from what I could tell, is the oldest. Obviously it was the first one and it seems to be the most respected. But I would guess if you get your training from any of those three, you're probably doing pretty good. They'll offer online classes, in person classes, self paced study, and you typically need to go take a birthing class, a breastfeeding class, because again, you need to know, like, you need to be current on all the stuff that's going on with labor and delivery. Right. If you took these classes 10 years ago and then did it again today, you would probably find some real differences in new stuff that's been discovered in the last 10 years. So you would need to be pretty current even if you had kids of your own before, for sure. And then you also need to attend at least one. I have the impression that multiple births under the apprenticeship of another doula who's already certified or trained or experienced before you really go off on your own to become certified. Yeah, and that's, I mean, that's just, I would say, how many births have you been a part of, you know, already before I hired a doula? That's a pretty big question if you ask me. So they would want to say, well, I've been, you know, I've assisted in like three or five or however many. But you're going to be my first solo.

[Chuck Bryant]

Your first solo flight. Yep, you will. It depends on where you live, on how much you're going to pay. If you, if you live in a big fancy city like New York City, you're going to be paying top dollar for your doula. If you live in Los Angeles, you're going to be paying top dollar for your doula.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I sell like 3,500 at least for each of those cities.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but that scale can go all the way down to zero. Well, sure, all the way to zero. But if you were paying a doula, that number can Go all the way down to 600 to 800, $1,000 in the flyover states.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right. But again, I mean, like, if this is the doula's first time on their own, you're probably not going to be paying top dollar. And if you say, look, I really, really, really want to have a doula at my, at my child's birth, but I really genuinely don't have this money. I actually got a lift once from a doula and she was talking about having to deal with this family who clearly was very well off but was pleading poverty. And she was like, I'm the one who's a doula and driving a Lyft here and these guys are trying to like shortchange me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Interesting.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So she said, she told, she said she tried to work with them but they wouldn't budge about whatever they thought her services were worth, so she had to just walk on. But why would a family that's well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Off not pay $800?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I don't know. I don't know. Because I remember thinking like, wow, that's all it costs for a doula. She might have even been quoting them less than $800.

[Chuck Bryant]

Geez.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So there is definitely like there seems to be a tension between the desire to have a doula and the sense of non obligation to pay a doula a decent wage, which I think is where that pro doula group pulls their hair out.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Well, you may get it covered by insurance. There are more and more cases and insurance companies that will let something like this be covered. But it never hurts to ask. This article points out you can always ask, you can always file a claim and just see if you'll get a little assistance there.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. If you live in Oregon and Minnesota though, Medicaid will reimburse your full doula expenses for a certified doula, which is pretty awesome. Like that's huge and groundbreaking that those two states have.

[Chuck Bryant]

That for sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

The reason why they would pay anything for a doula rather than just being like just burn some sage or something and spend five bucks is because there has been studies about doulas and they have come out quite positive in some pretty good peer reviewed studies and peer reviewed journals. Right. Have you seen any of this?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah, I saw the one 15,000 people. That's a pretty decent study size. And they said in this study size there were some women who had doulas and some women who did not have doulas or any kind of support like that. And then outcomes for women with continuous support were better than those without meaning, their labors were shorter by about 40 minutes on average. Their babies had higher APGAR scores. Which Apgar? These tests they give your baby, like first thing your kid has to do is take a test.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Seconds later, they're giving your kid their first test.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Activity, pulse, grimace, appearance and respiration.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right, yeah. And so higher APGAR scores, fewer negative feelings about childbirth. Like this is the emotional component. They required less pain medication, fewer uses of forceps or vacuum assisted interventions. C sections across the board. Doulas helped. And what was really interesting was there was basically nothing that could point at that said having a doula was a negative in any way.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And even when they look just at doulas, rather than just all types of continuous support, just at doulas, the doulas, they held up too. There was less use of pitocin, less C section, more spontaneous vaginal deliveries, less of a risk of being admitted to a special care nursery. Four times less likely in one study to have a low birth weight child. 2 times less likely to have complications. And they were significantly more likely to initiate breastfeeding when cared for by a doula. Right. So there's all these like, demonstrably positive outcomes. And then you hit upon the other thing too that they make. The harsh hospital environment. There's something called harsh environment theory where the bright lights and the people you don't know coming in and out and treating you like a piece of meat that they need to get this thing out of, that it can actually produce a traumatic experience. I suspect, in more women than you would think. Having birth or giving birth in a hospital is kind of traumatic. And for some women, from what I read, it's like deeply traumatic. And that's been a huge reason that doulas have really come into use lately is because they mellow everything out for you a lot more. And there's actually, I read there's a group of renegade doulas who are acting as midwives out in the pot growing country of Northern California.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Mm.

[Chuck Bryant]

What's the relationship there to the pot growing?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I would guess they probably do both. They grow the pot and deliver the babies.

[Chuck Bryant]

Nice.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think it's kind of like a whole back to the earth. To hell with the man's establishment hospitals. Apparently it's illegal to give birth like this without like a certified someone from the medical community being there to assist in the delivery. They're saying nuts to that, which I would guess is pretty dangerous, but also illegal. And if there's anything that screams Northern California more than dangerous and illegal. I don't know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. If you want to use a doula and I'm officially endorsing this, I say don't say, don't say doula. Sorry, I couldn't resist on that one.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

It was worth it.

[Chuck Bryant]

You just get online. You know, the doulas are easy to find in your area. Do a little Google searching, get a reference, a personal reference if you can would be great. Get online, find a friend who has used to doula they can recommend. I mean that's really the best way. I don't know if I'd go on Yelp or anything like that. Or Angie's List, Although maybe, who knows. But it's better if a good friend says, hey, I use this doula. And she's great.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think also the certifying bodies have directories of certified doulas in areas too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean you want it to be a good personality match too. So you should talk to your doula on the phone at the very least. But ideally have a little in person meeting to make sure. Like, is this someone I want to, I want to jump into the foxhole with? Because they're going to be around a lot, you know, and you have to have a good personality match there.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah. And your husband or co parent needs to like them too. You don't want weird tension between those two in the delivery room. True. They need to fit into your jam pretty well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Or else it's just gonna be. Especially if you're one of those people who can't stand conflict. That would be awful. To have a doula who your husband or co parent or wife or whoever doesn't like and butts heads with in the delivery room. That would just be bad. And then you have to pay them afterward. That would just be terrible. So yeah, you want to vet them pretty well ahead of time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And while you. While a doula is that a doula is there to support you. So while they may have their own opinions on what they might do in a given situation, their childbirth philosophy is. Your childbirth philosophy as a mom is what matters.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, so a good doula will get on board with that. Or if they aren't on board with that, then they probably shouldn't be working with you.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And yeah, I could see them being like, look, I can recommend a couple of other people who are more in line with what you're looking for than me, you know?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Instead of wrong, wrong, wrong. This is all wrong. This is how we're going to do it.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You got anything else on doulas?

[Chuck Bryant]

Just this little bit on death doulas. We may have covered this in our cheese. In our dying episode.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[Chuck Bryant]

I feel like we've talked about it, but it is a job. If you want to help a family or a person or both through end of life care, there are people you can hire just to do that. And it's not the same as they can work in concert with hospice care. But it's not like a hospice nurse. It's someone just like a birth doula who is there to really just emotionally kind of coach you through the dying process with a family member and also to.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

To very concretely hold your hand, make sure you're comfortable.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Move you around a little bit, listen to you talk, tell you stories, whatever you're you're looking for to make the whole thing better.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Pretty. Pretty neat.

[Chuck Bryant]

Up with doulas.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, up with doulas. Agreed. If you want to know more about up with Doulas, this new organization that Chuck and I just now founded, you can. I'll just wait a little while. We need to get to work on the website. And in the meantime, let's listen to some listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. I'm going to call this flu shot clarification because that's what the subject line says.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, guys. Avid listener wanted to comment on the flu episode. I'm a graduate student and a few months away from completing my degree to becoming a physician's assistant. Well, never mind then, buddy. I don't want to hear it. No, I'm just kidding. Spend a lot of time seeing patients, answering questions about things like flu shots and who should receive them. The CDC now recommends that everyone over the age of six months receives a flu shot. Even those who are perfectly healthy, even those who are allergic to eggs.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

They're cuckoo for flu shots.

[Chuck Bryant]

The new flu shots are now being designed to be egg free. So they're egg free, gluten free, what else? Dairy free.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

They contain 10% quinoa.

[Chuck Bryant]

And there's no evidence to suggest flu shots in recent years could cause a reaction in those allergic to eggs. All right, that's interesting. Did not know that. He said the benefits of the flu shots far outweighed the risk in his opinion.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

This guy's opinion.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And it sounds like it's an informed opinion at the very least.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

So that is from Deben from Philadelphia. Go Eagles.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Do you think so? Really?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, why not? They're doing great.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Okay, well, thanks a lot, Devin. I appreciate writing in. That was nice of you. And if you out there want to be like Devin, you can hang out with us on [e-mail] and as always, join us at our home on the web. Stuff you should know.com.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should.

[Josh Clark]

Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[I]

This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios. The amateur Charlie Heller is the CIA's most brilliant computer analyst whose life is turned upside down when his wife is murdered in a terrorist attack. Wrought with grief, Charlie decides her killers must pay. Without any field experience, Charlie must trek the globe and use his biggest weapon, his intelligence, to enact his revenge. Because the most unexpected threat is an amateur. Starring Academy Award winner Rami Malek and Academy Award nominee Laurence Fishburne, The Amateur rated PG13 only in theaters and IMAX 4-11-8 there ritual.

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[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Like 24. 7 claims I'm on cloud nine.

[David Blume]

Clouds are wholly unable to support the weight of an adult human.

[Josh Clark]

What's happening?

[David Blume]

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