Selects: The Tale of the Church of the SubGenius

Summary

The Tale of the Church of the SubGenius: A Detailed Summary

In the July 26, 2025 episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosted by Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant under the iHeartPodcasts banner, the dynamic duo delves deep into the eccentric and enigmatic world of the Church of the SubGenius. This long-form summary captures the essence of their discussion, highlighting key topics, insightful observations, and memorable quotes, all structured into clear sections for ease of understanding.

1. Introduction to the Church of the SubGenius

The episode kicks off with Josh introducing the topic:

Josh Clark [01:49]: "For this week's Select, I've chosen our October 2021 episode on the Church of the SubGenius. It's a neat little romp through what started out as a couple of guys who like pamphlets and turned a whole generation... into interesting people skeptical of anything someone is trying to sell them on."

Chuck echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the subtle influence of the Church:

Chuck Bryant [04:34]: "It's called the Dobbs head... You probably have seen it, even if you're not familiar with the Church of the SubGenius."

2. Origins and Founders

Delving into the history, Josh and Chuck recount how they became acquainted with the Church through friends and media:

Chuck Bryant [02:19]: "I had a group of friends that walked on the odder side of life, darker side of life, less, you know... there was one guy who was big time into the Church of the SubGenius."

Josh adds personal anecdotes about being introduced to Bob Dobbs, the Church's central figure:

Josh Clark [03:27]: "Bob Dobbs in the Church of Subgenius was one of them."

3. Doctrine and Concepts: The Idea of Slack

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the Church's unique philosophy, particularly the concept of slack:

Chuck Bryant [27:39]: "So slack is the opposite of that. It's where things are going your way. It's where you are content and happy."

Josh attempts to define slack, drawing parallels to contentment without excessive exertion:

Josh Clark [27:23]: "Slack is different for every person... it's what makes you content while giving up as little as possible."

They further elaborate on the idea of the conspiracy, an acronym representing forces against achieving slack:

Chuck Bryant [30:10]: "Under the teachings of Bob, the conspiracy is actually an acronym for cliques of normals secretly planning insidious rituals aimed at control you."

4. Live Shows and Devivals

Josh and Chuck describe the vibrant and often chaotic live gatherings known as devivals:

Chuck Bryant [36:19]: "It's almost like I would compare it to a meeting of the Juggalos, a Comic-Con, and a Gwar show all mixed together."

They reminisce about their experiences and observations:

Josh Clark [36:18]: "Every time I see a devival or a live show, I absolutely do not want to be there."

5. Schism and Controversies

The hosts discuss internal conflicts that arose within the Church, particularly surrounding X Day:

Chuck Bryant [46:23]: "One of the big parts of the church is that the world's going to end eventually on X Day... but it came and went without the anticipated events."

This led to a schism between factions with differing beliefs about the Church's future:

Josh Clark [47:32]: "A schism was written into the script of the Church of the Subgenius. It was nothing. They wrote a heel basically into their wrestling show with Papa Joe Mama..."

6. Modern Impact and Evolution

Addressing the Church's standing in contemporary culture, Josh and Chuck note its decline and resurgence with the advent of the Internet:

Josh Clark [53:40]: "The world became the parody. It wasn't straight any longer; it was just a joke."

They touch upon recent documentaries and the Church's efforts to clarify its satirical nature:

Chuck Bryant [50:13]: "The documentary... they did, and they said the reason why... make sure that it's perfectly clear before he dies that this is a joke."

7. Personal Reflections and Anecdotes

Throughout the episode, Josh and Chuck interject personal stories and reflections, adding humor and relatability to the complex subject matter. For instance, Chuck shares a humorous yet poignant moment involving a payment envelope:

Josh Clark [54:58]: "Chuck told one funny joke about getting a payment upon receipt envelope that he had to pay $2 to even open this thing. And he was all perturbed about that. And there was $1,000 in cash."

8. Reception and Cultural Significance

The hosts acknowledge the Church's influence on various cultural figures and its enduring legacy despite its niche status:

Chuck Bryant [55:03]: "He strikes me as that as well... it's an enormous, huge, rambling... canon. It's a lot of fun, especially the older stuff."

They highlight the Church's timeless critique of consumer culture and conformity:

Chuck Bryant [55:52]: "...consumer-driven culture that is still going on."

9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Wrapping up, Josh and Chuck reinforce the Church's foundational premise of satire and its role as a mock-religion:

Chuck Bryant [57:39]: "It's a joke. It is a joke. Ultimately, it's a joke and take it as that."

They encourage listeners to explore further while maintaining the light-hearted nature of the discussion.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Chuck Bryant [04:55]: "It is a joke. But to get the joke, you have to see that it isn't really a joke at all, but is actually getting at harrowing truths about the world."

• Chuck Bryant [27:39]: "Slack is where things are going your way. It's where you are content and happy."

• Chuck Bryant [30:10]: "Under the teachings of Bob, the conspiracy is actually an acronym for cliques of normals secretly planning insidious rituals aimed at control you."

• Chuck Bryant [36:19]: "It's almost like I would compare it to a meeting of the Juggalos, a Comic-Con, and a Gwar show all mixed together."

• Josh Clark [47:32]: "A schism was written into the script of the Church of the Subgenius."

• Chuck Bryant [50:13]: "The documentary... they did, and they said the reason why... make sure that it's perfectly clear before he dies that this is a joke."

• Chuck Bryant [55:03]: "It's an enormous, huge, rambling... canon. It's a lot of fun, especially the older stuff."

• Chuck Bryant [57:39]: "It's a joke. It is a joke. Ultimately, it's a joke and take it as that."

Final Remarks

Josh and Chuck adeptly navigate the convoluted and whimsical landscape of the Church of the SubGenius, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of its origins, philosophies, and cultural significance. Their engaging dialogue, enriched with personal insights and humorous commentary, makes the intricate tapestry of this mock-religion accessible and intriguing, even for those unfamiliar with its myriad quirks.

Whether you view the Church of the SubGenius as a profound satirical critique of society or simply a bizarre cultural footnote, this episode of Stuff You Should Know offers a captivating exploration into a world where slack and satire intertwine in the most unexpected ways.

Transcript

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Jerry]

Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges but also incredible strength, especially for those living with conditions like myasthenia gravis or mg, and chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as cidp. Functional finding empowerment in the community is critical. Untold Stories Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenics explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places. Listen to Untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, it's me, Josh, and for this week's Select, I've chosen our October 2021 episode on the Church of the Subgenius. It's a neat little romp through what started out as a couple of guys who like pamphlets and turned a whole generation, well, some percentage of a whole generation into interesting people skeptical of anything someone is trying to sell them on. As you can hear from this intro, it's kind of difficult to describe, so just enjoy listening to the episode.

[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's over there wandering around in circles. And this is stuff you should know. The podcast about the Church of the Sub Genius at long last.

[Josh Clark]

When did you become acquainted with the Church of the Subgenius?

[Chuck Bryant]

I had a group of friends that walked on the odder side of life, darker side of life, less, you know.

[Jerry]

Less serious side of life.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm not sure. In the 90s. And there was one guy who was big time into the Church of the Subgenius. That's how it happens, right? Yeah, that was my first introduction. Then I actually came across the hour of slack on Georgia Tech student radio once, like in the early 2000s.

[Josh Clark]

REC radio.

[Chuck Bryant]

I never got into it though. Are you actually like a secret subgeni?

[Josh Clark]

No, same as you. I had a friend in college, a very influential friend actually, who turned me onto a lot of different things as I was just getting into college and exploring different ways of life and thought patterns and Sherm sticks, my buddy Jason, he turned me onto a lot of things in life and I've been able to tell him so, which is always a nice thing. And Bob Dobbs in the Church of Subgenius was one of them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. And you might not be utterly familiar with the Church of the Subgenius, but I'll bet there's a pretty good chance that a lot of stuff you should know, listeners are at least familiar with it without even being fully aware that of what it is. But there's a very, very famous picture of a clean cut mid century, middle aged dude with a pipe clenched in his teeth and almost like a Patrick Bateman psychotic look on his face.

[Josh Clark]

Like almost Patrick Bateman meets Ward Cleaver.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly. Yes, Chuck. I don't think anyone's ever put it better than that. And that is J.R. bob Dobbs, who is the high prophet of the Church of the Subgenius. And he has popped up everywhere from the background at Pee Wee's Playhouse. There was a sublime record that had him on there. Like he shows up all over the place. It's almost like code. And so you probably have seen it, even if you're not familiar with the Church of the Subgenius. That's called the Dobbs head.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Gathered from clip art, which we will see. It's kind of one of the fun in jokes about a pseudo religion. A satire and parody of religion. And it was formed by two guys. We'll get into the history, but I have sort of a favorite definition and I know you do, and maybe we'll just read both of them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

Mine comes from Steve Davis of the Austin Chronicle. And he said this in the late 70s. The Church of the Subgenius was intended as a dogmatic antidote to a re emergent mediocrity embracing an aesthetic in confluence with evolving new wave sensibilities and tropes in music, film and pop culture. It was an end joke with a half serious punchline.

[Chuck Bryant]

Very nice. That was great.

[Josh Clark]

And yours was from Ed, the Grabster himself. He kind of put it nicely.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Also from the Austin Chronicle. Yeah. So Ed said that the best way to explain the church is. It is a joke. But to get the joke, you have to see that it isn't really a joke at all, but is actually getting at harrowing truths about the world.

[Josh Clark]

Not bad, Ed.

[Chuck Bryant]

Not bad. So the whole thing, I think it.

[Josh Clark]

Scared Ed a little bit.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think so too. It's hilarious and cute, but the whole thing is that it is a parody of a religion, a parody of a cult, a UFO sex cult, if you want to get technical. It's an absurdist in joke. And the whole thing is one big in joke made up of millions of tiny little in jokes that anybody in the church can kind of generate and create. But it's all kind of hung on the skeleton of this doctrine of the prophet Bob Dobbs, who is the world's greatest salesman, who is basically carrying out the will of an alien God who may or may not love us, or the subgeni, as they're called, in plural. And either it sucks you in immediately and you're like, I want to know more about this because this is hilarious, or repulses you because it is making fun of everything that you hold dear. There's not a lot of middle ground, although I would count myself as somebody in the middle ground, to tell you the truth. That was so awesome, Chuck. Nicely done.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. What I just did there. And you'll see this a lot if you watch the documentary, if you see any YouTube footage of people from the Sub Genius Church hanging out at one of their devivals. They don't call them revivals, they call them D vials. They will do this thing where they kind of juggle their throat with their hand as they sort of do this weird chant. And I didn't find much information on that specifically, but I did see them doing it all over the place.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, it is a huge, huge rabbit hole. And as we'll see, like, some people accidentally take it seriously. And that's not the right thing to do at all. That is. That is a. That is a mentally unsound thing to do. That's not what the intention is or anything like that. The intention is to basically point out how just warped our consumer culture is. And it made a lot more sense in the 80s, before our culture ended up becoming the parody that the Church of the Subgenius was carrying out.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it had a very Mad Magazine vibe. You know something I know that you and I both grew up loving and cherishing. And I could see, like, you know, if that's something as mainstream as you want to liken it to, to help People understand. It's almost as if Mad magazine started a religion and Alfred E. Newman was the God and it was all just one big joke about consumer culture. And then if people end up taking it seriously, you can really see why that would be a very strange thing. Of course, Alfred E. Newman is not God and of course Bob Dobbs is not God or the prophet. But these two guys founded this kind of funny joke religion in the late 1970s because they were like minded dudes. And what started as a joke grew into a. I guess a mini phenomenon.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know, man. I think it's.

[Josh Clark]

Or major phenomenon.

[Chuck Bryant]

I would say major as far as cult classic or cult phenomena go. And also we should. Also, I think we should preface all this, if it's not too late, to all of the Church of the Subgenius members out there, past and present and future. This is one of those things where like, if you explain what makes something funny, it is like that's the least funny thing you can do. So if we traipse into that just by virtue of explaining things, we're sorry.

[Josh Clark]

I know. Because it is a fun kind of cool thing that was created for people that felt like they were on the outside of things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Precisely. Yes.

[Josh Clark]

For outcasts and weirdos who didn't fit in necessarily. They found common ground before the Internet.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

By writing letters back and forth to each other. They kind of had the Internet through pen and paper and these devivals. And we have Douglas St. Clair Smith and Steve Wilcox to thank for this.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. The original outsider weirdos.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. You may not know him by that name. If you're familiar with the Church of the Subgenius, you know them as Outside Ivan Stang and Philo Drummond. And these were two guys, like I said, who were. They were in Texas, I think. Philo grew up in a religious family and had a really good childhood. It wasn't some stifling situation. But he was always sort of. Didn't quite fit in and felt like the outsider at school and was seeking outsider culture. And whereas Stang was. I think he described himself in the documentary as secular humanist scientist in his upbringing, super liberal family. Whereas I keep wanting to call him Wilcox. Whereas Philo's was more conservative to be sure. But they found common ground when a friend introduced them. They said, you both love comic books, you both love Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart get together and you might have a new friend. And they were immediate friends.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. They definitely hit it off in part also because they both kind of just felt like they didn't really fit into Dallas, Texas at the time.

[Josh Clark]

That helps.

[Chuck Bryant]

One of the other things they really had in common was a love of like, earnest bonafide extremist pamphlets.

[Josh Clark]

Right. They're fun.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Whether it's extremist religious groups, extremists, like, you know, like white supremacist groups, which I'm sure Dallas, Texas in the 70s had quite a bit of like anybody who was just kind of off the rails and was trying to recruit other people to be off the rails with them and made a pamphlet about that. These guys would collect it and relish it. And that also included, remember, the Jack Schick tracks in the satanic panic episode? They were huge into that. It had a huge influence on them as well. Those comic strips about how somebody, you know, know, had sex before marriage and now they were burning in hell, kind of stuff like that. They took all these things together and they kind of used them as the basis for this outlook on the world, which is humans are totally nuts in a lot of ways. And then even more than that, they can be dangerously nuts when they try to foist or impose their own crazy thoughts onto you and make you behave a certain way because of their crazy thoughts. That that's the danger that comes out of modern life. And I think that's one of the things that really stuck out to them and the thing that drove them to kind of try to fight that however they could.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I have to say I see the appeal of what they did. Because if you remember a few years ago, God, this is quite a few years ago now. Our buddy Joe Randazzo and I wrote a TV pilot together about a. A Scientology esque religion. And it never went anywhere. We even had a few pitch meetings and nothing happened with it. But in writing that script, we had to create our own religion for that pilot. And you can't just say, well, let's just call it this, and it's whatever. Like you have to really kind of explore the tenets of it and make it a real thing. And we did that. And I made a pamphlet. Joe and I made it together and I kind of put it together and we brought the pamphlet to the pitch meetings. And it. I'll send you one sometime. That's really funny. Our religion was called binarism, and it was like this numbers based kind of Scientology thing. But it was so much fun. And all I could think about when these two guys got together in 1979 and hatched this idea was, yeah, it's A lot of fun to create a phony religion, even for a screenplay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And they were definitely inspired by L. Ron Hubbard and his success at basically founding Scientology based on some science fiction ideas that he had and then becoming rich. There was a famous quote attributed to L. Ron Hubbard that you can't get rich writing science fiction, but you can get rich by writing or by founding your own religion. And so we should be really careful here. They weren't inspired by L. Ron Hubbard in the sense, like, they wanted to take advantage of people. I think they were more fascinated by the fact that. That there are plenty of people out there who will buy into this. And I think they kind of wanted to explore that. Not in any kind of. Like, it's weird. The whole thing is kind of a cynical. It comes from a cynical place where you just have to be cynical to be critical enough of society to see it for what it is. But it's also, like a very humanist group as well, where, like, they're not trying to hurt you, they're not trying to exploit you. They definitely come off as superior a lot of times, especially if you're not in on the joke, because that makes you, by definition, part of the butt of the joke.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Makes you a normie.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. But for the most part, they're not like a group of people who, like, hate or despise other people. I think they're fascinated by the fact that that kind of stuff exists, and they're also fascinated by just how conformist the average person is without even thinking about it. So they were fascinated, I guess, is the way to put it, by L. Ron Hubbard and his success with Scientology. And there was another quote that was attributed to Stang. I don't know if it was in the documentary that came out recently or not, but he basically said, if we figured that if Jim Jones can get 900 people to kill themselves, we could get 900 people to send us a dollar, and they kind of wanted to toy around with that and see if that was the case. Not to exploit people, but just to kind of see. I think if there was anybody else out there, they were kind of shouting into the wilderness. And the way that you told them that you were out there was to mail in a dollar and say, send me your pamphlet.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And here's the deal. Stang, it looks like, by all accounts, has generally made his living doing this over the year.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it worked.

[Josh Clark]

He's not gotten rich. It's not a Scientology thing where it's like, and send me 100 more dollars and we'll give you another thing. No, it's really just sort of mail us some money and we'll send you our comedy goods in the mail. And he still stuffs envelopes and he still sends pamphlets and CDs and literature today. It's like, you know, it's like paying for a Mad magazine or something, but it's just done from this guy's house.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I also get the impression that the far and away the vast majority of the people who understand the church's subgenius for what it is when they send money and they're sending it out of like gratitude for what Stang and Philo have built together. That's what it is. They're not being duped in any way. They're in on the joke. They're just showing their support by shoveling money toward those guys.

[Josh Clark]

All right, I think that is a great preamble. You're either turning off your hi fi system now or you're intrigued by what's to come. And we'll talk about the night it all hatched right after this.

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[Jerry]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Jerry]

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[Josh Clark]

So these guys are hanging out. It's 1979. They didn't have. I think Philo was the one who always had a pretty decent job. He kind of had an okay career, and he always wanted to. There were times where he kind of dropped in and out of his involvement because he did have a decent career, but he always supported it. Whereas Stang was all in from the beginning and didn't have a ton of prospects for work. But they were hanging out and they were like, kind of wondering why they didn't have more and why they weren't as successful as they thought they should be. And Stang said, you know, we aren't geniuses. We must be subgeniuses. And he says in the documentary, he was like, that's the moment. That was literally like a lightning bolt out of the sky that hatched this idea. So they kind of took all their interest in all these weird pamphlets and weird UFO cults and pseudo religions and New age beliefs, and they made the original pamphlet, spent $60 on this original pamphlet, and we're just leaving them at dry cleaners and stuff like that until Stang's wife got mad and she was like, that's a lot of money for us. At least send this to some publishers and see if you can do something with this. So they sent it to every publisher under the sun and got rejected by every publisher under the sun. But it's pretty funny that later they did end up having a fairly successful book, but early on, book publishers didn't know what to do with these guys.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And you can understand why if you've ever seen what's called pamphlet number one now, which is part of the church doctrine. This is like the sacred writings. The idea is that Ivan Stang is the sacred scribe who took down the words of Bob Dobbs. And by the way, Bob Dobbs, the Bob is always in quotes. Not just when you say J R. Bob Dobbs. Like, even if you say Bob Dobbs or even just Bob, it's always in quotes. That's how you write his name. And that Bob was getting his divine Inspiration from Jehovah 1, that alien overlord that runs Earth. And this was kind of like the conceit of the pamphlet. And the front of the pamphlet said things like, the world ends tomorrow and you may die in all caps. It asked, do people think you're strange? Do you? I know, I love that one. There was another one that said, eternal salvation or triple your money back. So, like, these are the things like on and in the pamphlet. And they're going around to publishers being like, hey, you want to give us some money for this? So, of course, everybody said no. The most astounding thing is that eventually somebody actually said yes, I think McGraw Hill.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And this was much later when they finally did get their book published, after they had quite a following and the sort of writing was on the wall with these fairly successful gatherings and live shows. But yeah, the book came later. Early on, they got together and started just as buddies getting on the CB radio and doing. And again, this was like you would get on the Internet today. Back then it was the cb, and they would do these sort of parody voices, basically hatch what was the beginnings of what would end up being the hour of Slack radio show, which is 90 minutes long, part of the joke. And people started hollering back at them. He said they were trolls. Before they were trolls. You were kind of trolling people on the cb. And then other people would troll back and call them Pinks, Pink boys. And that's where the notion of pinks or pink boys came up. And. And Pink Boys, they kind of flipped it in the Church of The subgenius Pink Boys are the others. They're the squares. They're the ones who just follow along and go to their 9 to 5 job and spend their consumer money on catalog items. And anyone else outside is a pink or a pink boy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. But there's a distinction between, say, people like you and I and actual dyed in the wool pink boys, the kind like middle manager types, who are, like, not only fully bought into the Khan, the great Khan that's going on, they actually, like, almost violently defend it in its existence and its rightness. Those are pinks. They're irreparable. There's nothing that's ever going to help them. And they're genuine humans. Now, there are plenty of subgeni out there who don't know their subgeni. They haven't been exposed to the church. They've never seen a Dob's head. Maybe, whatever reason, they're not aware that they're a subgenius yet. And if you're a true subgenius, then you have Yeti blood coursing through your veins.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Now, if you're an actual subgenius, that means that you are of Yeti heritage who has basically become aware of the teachings of Bob and are now actively working against the conspiracy and exploiting Pink Boys anytime you get a chance. Because, again, they're hopeless. They're never going to be converted because they don't have any Yeti blood in them.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And to reiterate, I don't know if I kind of just tossed it off earlier, but.

[Chuck Bryant]

You tossed it off.

[Josh Clark]

Bob Dobbs is a piece of clip art. Literally, that face that you see was a piece of Clipart from Clipart catalog. And they loved Clipart because it was free.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And a lot of their early stuff was just collage from Clipart that they had found. And this was from a Clipart catalog. And now it's, you know, one of, you know, arguably one of the most famous pieces of clip art there is.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I don't know if it was a joke. It's so hard to tell what's a joke and what's not because they play everything so straight. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

They're in character, basically.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. But I saw on one of their websites, they said, reminder, this is a. This is. This is a trademarked piece of art now as part of, like, the subgeni or copyright subgenius. So I don't know if they actually did copyright it. I could totally see them doing that in real life or if they were just joking about it either way. Yeah. It's kind of great.

[Josh Clark]

So I think we probably can't go any further without explaining this concept of slack I mentioned. The radio show is called the Hour of Slack. And kind of the major, I guess, philosophy and tenet of their religion is this concept of slack.

[Chuck Bryant]

Are you having trouble describing it?

[Josh Clark]

No. I mean, they even say in the documentary it is not even to be described, that they can't even describe it. So whatever we do is gonna be our own attempt.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

Slack is different for every person. But the definite idea is what you think, which is being slack, like kind of, but not just being lazy. Having everything you need in life and being content while giving up as little as possible. Exertion wise.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exertion wise, exactly. Like having done as little as possible to actually attain it. That's one definition of slack, for sure. The point is, I think it's one of those things where what is not slack is easier to recognize than what is slack. And I'll give you an example of something that happened today.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. Because I've been thinking about this. I'm like, how are we going to define slack?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So I knocked over the toilet brush behind the toilet in my bathroom. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

And you know, like the little drippings that end up in, like, the toilet brush holder.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

They spill out on the floor. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Those are the worst drippings.

[Chuck Bryant]

The worst drippings. I would have rather spilled, like, raw pork juice onto my floor than those drippings. They're bad drippings. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Bad drippings.

[Chuck Bryant]

So I spent the next 10 minutes not only, like, cleaning up those drippings, and I mean, like, cleaning it up. Like, there's some floor missing now. I scrubbed it so hard. And then also cleaning the holder for the scrub brush before I put everything back. And this is a totally unintentional, totally avoidable thing for me to be doing. That took up 10 minutes of my life. I did not want to be doing it. It was gross. It was yuck. And I realized this is the perfect example of what is not slack.

[Josh Clark]

It's the conspiracy.

[Chuck Bryant]

It was the conspiracy that probably had something to do with it. But the point was, is, like, I was doing something I didn't want to do and I was doing it. I was getting no reward from it whatsoever. I was a little stressed out about it. It was not slack. So slack is the opposite of that. It's where things are going your way. It's where you are content and happy. And that doesn't necessarily mean you have everything in life, like, all the Trappings of life. It very frequently doesn't mean that. Instead it's just whatever it is that makes you content. And because it's undefinable, that means that it's up to every subgeni to define what is slack for them.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and the conspiracy are the things that prevent you from achieving slack. Originally I think the conspiracy was literally like the man that kind of thing. But it evolved over the years to the point where one of the guys in the documentary said it evolved to. It was like when it rained really hard on a day you were gonna do something like that's the conspiracy.

[Chuck Bryant]

I gotcha.

[Josh Clark]

It's things I think conspiring against you. That toilet brush knocking over. That's definitely the conspiracy because it prevented you from I guess, taking your mid morning nap.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. And under the teachings of Bob, the conspiracy is actually an acronym for cliques of normals secretly planning insidious rituals aimed at control you.

[Josh Clark]

That's a good one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Agreed. And then under the doctrine like this is an actual group who they don't know what slack is, but they know it exists and they're bent on stealing as much of it as possible and they start stealing it from everybody, pinks and yeti from the moment you're born. And so it's up to you to steal it back to get as much slack as you possibly can. But the problem with the conspiracy is they're the ones running the show here on earth. They're the ones who are behind consumer culture and they've created this illusion that what normals and pinks and non subgenii yeti who haven't figured themselves out yet buy into as life is all just this vast consumer conspiracy and that they actually offer what appears to be slack. But it's like false slack is what they call it. Yeah, it's manufactured slack. So it's like the subgenius wiki is awesome. And they give examples of like pre planned recreation, like days off from work that you earn or are given. Like this is all false slack. Like it's somebody else deciding what your slack is and you buying into it. And that is not slack. Slack is. You have to decide what slack is.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And there is original slack. We are all born with original slack according to the church. And the conspiracy chips away at that slack or sells you false slack over the years to degrade your natural slack that you're born with. And then there's also involuntary slack, which is my favorite slack. And this is like if you lose your job or something, if you get Fired. This is just involuntary slack that Bob is sending your way to force you to take a little time off.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I saw a video From, I guess 2009 or 10, and it called the Great Recession, the Great Slack Session. And it basically said, like, the financial markets have melted down. And it had like this real dramatic music. Millions of people are out of work. No one has a clue about what to do about it. Victory is at hand. There's one other thing I want to say about Slack too. There are basically two groups, two approaches or philosophies as far as slack is concerned. And I think it's pretty interesting that the whole concept is gotten this far. It's evolved into something. And I think this is a really good example of what happens with the church's teachings. Like, these guys just wrote some crazy stuff, like back in the 70s, 80s, even into the 90s. And then other people who kind of vibed on it came along and expanded it. Like I read an essay on the scissors of Sight, and apparently that's mentioned offhandedly in pamphlet number one. And somebody wrote a whole essay about how they're still trying to figure out what those are. And they think it's from a crystal in Atlantis. And it was just like, that's just what they do. It's almost like they're putting stuff out there as like, thought starters for other people's creativity to kind of sprout from. But anyway, the two paths for slack is kind of split between these two groups, the Rewardians and the emergentiles, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And the emergentiles are getting their slack because they're getting the things done that they kind of feel like they want and need to get done, but it's under a deadline from someone else. But then they have their slack. And then the Rewardians don't think this is more like Tao of Steve stuff. Did you ever see that movie?

[Chuck Bryant]

No. I need to, though. I'm well aware of it.

[Josh Clark]

Sort of. That was sort of that guy's deal. He was just like. He had this life philosophy and he would have really fit in with these folks. With the Rewardians, they're basically like, slack off all the time. Don't do any work until you absolutely have to.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. I think there's quite a bit of pot involved every day kind of thing.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. That wouldn't surprise me.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that's what I think most people would think of when they think of, like, slacking. Like, yeah, that's what you do when you slack. You don't work. You sit around, you smoke Pot. You're like, never put on pants or anything like that. And you're just having the time of your life as long as, like, that's what you want to do. Emergent house. You're like, no, no. There's another way to do this. I feel really good about accomplishing something about like setting a goal and meeting it about. But that's my goal. Like, I want to learn how to climb a mountain. So I'm going to go learn how to climb a mountain and climb that mountain. And during that whole process, I'm slacking. Like, that's my slack. So those are kind of like the two ways of doing it. And apparently the two groups kind of pity each other and think they have it completely backwards. But the point is, neither group is right or wrong because it's all up to the individual what your slack is.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, what these guys really, it's such a time and place thing. They were born out of this sort of spirit of the Merry Pranksters,'60s counterculture Ken Kesey kind of thing. But they came along at a time where that had been bulldozed over and the 80s were being born, which was about as anti 60s counterculture vibe as you can imagine. But these guys still had that sort of fun, playful idea. And, you know, this was their invention. I always think it's just so fun and so cool. Every time I see a D Vibel or a live show, I absolutely do not want to be there.

[Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

But I think it's awesome. I liken it to when I saw Spinal Tap in concert. They actually toured when I was in college and I was such a fan of the movie. And they played the Fox Theater and we all went. And it was not fun at all because it was like. It was funny as a movie. But you're at this rock and roll show that is supposed to kind of be funny. But there were also people that were really getting into the rock and roll. And I didn't know I was stuck in between worlds. I didn't know how to feel. And when I was watching these subgenius live shows, I was kind of like, oh, that's like Spinal Tap live. I don't want to be there. But I'm glad people are enjoying it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's kind of like. Yeah. And do they are enjoying it? The people who go to those are genuinely having like the time of their lives. Like, that's their time to like, just like, just be themselves as much as they ever have in their life.

[Josh Clark]

I love it.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's almost like I would compare it to a. Like a meeting of the Juggalos, a comic Con, and a gwar show all mixed together. That's what the devibles these days kind of seem like, just based on what I've seen on the Internet.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's good. I like it. And if you think this is all really dumb, then you probably would not like their motto. They have a lot of sayings and mottos, but their chief one that they kind of yell out at these devivals is F them if you can't take a joke. Or if they can't take a joke.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And I mean, it's right there. Like, they're. It's amazing to me that some people took this too seriously because the motto is literally, this is a joke.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right? Yeah. And it is really kind of, like, disconcerting because, like, if you do take it seriously, like, you really have to go to great lengths to get past all the winks, the nods, the absurdity of everything. It suggests that there's, like, you're worse off than the average cult member because you're actually taking a joke cult as a cult.

[Josh Clark]

It's like when Fight Club got too serious, they started blowing up buildings and stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think so.

[Josh Clark]

Except there was no violence involved in the Church of the Subgenius.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, they're. They're peaceful.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Because they're all stoned.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I think a lot of them are. I think a lot of them are, like the Frank Zappa types, or they're just weird. And they have nothing to do with drugs or alcohol or anything like that, too, you know, those.

[Josh Clark]

Are they. They were born with original stone.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Josh Clark]

Requires no drugs.

[Chuck Bryant]

Apparently Frank Zappler is a real jerk to people who did drugs. Like, he had that cafe or restaurant or club or whatever, and he would, like, kick you out if he thought you were on pot.

[Josh Clark]

That's conspiracy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he was a little pink, from what I can tell.

[Josh Clark]

Interesting.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah. And you said also if this kind of stuff seems weird to you or whatever or you don't like it, like, that's a pretty, like, fairly normal reaction. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. No, but one of the reasons that. That it might make you feel a little wobbly or a little shaky or like you're missing something or like you're being made fun of, that kind of weird feeling in your stomach is because you probably are being made fun of. Like, if you're not in on the joke, like I said, earlier. By definition, you're part of the butt of the joke. You're a member of that, that group. And if you actually are actively getting offended at what they're saying and doing because one of the threads of humor that they very frequently use is bad taste, shock value. Just basically the opposite of PC. They really don't care for PC very much. And if you're deeply offended by this stuff and you actually respond to it, you're actually kind of proving their point that you are maybe a little too wrapped up in this culture that they're basically saying like this is a fraud, this is all a fraud. And you're proving that there's problems with it by getting mad at something where at a joke, basically.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And before you start feeling too sorry for these people because they're being made fun of as squares who aren't hip to the joke and don't get the joke, I mean, the original reason this was started was because these very people were outcast and being bullied by those very people to begin with, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

So let's take a break, man, and we'll talk about some of the lower points in the Church of the Subgenius that have happened across the years, huh?

[Josh Clark]

Let's do.

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[Chuck Bryant]

It's a quickly changing world.

[Jerry]

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[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Especially when it comes to your retirement. Because yesterday's answers may not be the ones you need today to secure a successful retirement tomorrow. So how much is enough? What if you don't want to stop working or even switch gears and take on chapter two? These questions just scratch the surface. The possibilities and the unexpected of what your future could hold are endless.

[Jerry]

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[Chuck Bryant]

So if you went to a D Bible, one of the things you would find Chuck is especially an early one, is a lot of like, put on preaching, like evangelical mock preaching. But the, what the, the guy's doing is like doing a fire and brimstone preacher bit. Yeah, but what he's saying is espousing, you know, Bob's stuff about, you know, if they f him, if they can't take a joke or, you know, whatever. And that like, doesn't sit very well usually with people. But also it never really sits very well with me because it's obnoxious even in its real form. And it's super obnoxious when it's like mocked because.

[Josh Clark]

Well, that's why I wouldn't want to be there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. And you do.

[Josh Clark]

And the anti music is.

[Chuck Bryant]

That was the next thing I was going to get to is like, if you, if you are not super into this and probably on a pretty decent amount of acid back in like 1985 or 4, you. The anti music would probably turn you off too. I know I don't like it at all either.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's basically the idea is that they would get a bunch of instruments and you could just do whatever you want with them. And the idea is that you're not. You can't play these things. These are not skilled musicians or not even musicians at all. And they would just make noise with them. And you know, when watching the documentary, you get the idea from some of them that it's sort of like the drum circle that finally everyone gets in synchronicity for a minute. You're like, oh, okay, something just happened that would happen occasionally, apparently with the anti music, is that it would coalesce at a certain point. Or maybe that was the drugs talking, but basically it's a bunch of people making a lot of awful noise and screaming.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. There was actually a time during the AT D Vivals, I think during the 90s maybe where a schism in the church developed.

[Josh Clark]

Well, was very much planned. Yeah, right.

[Chuck Bryant]

So the idea was. So one of the big parts of the. One of the tenets of the church is there like, the world's going to end eventually on X Day. And X day was originally slotted for July 5, 1998. And that came and went. And there were no UFOs driven by sex goddesses to come whisk off the subgeni to Planet X to live out the rest of their eternity partying. But the fact that this was coming along, the church decided, like, we don't know what's going to happen to the Pinks after that, so we need to decide. And the schism was formed between people who said, well, there'll probably be sub subgeni who want to stay and rule the world and we can just let them rule the Pinks from there on out. And then the other group said, no, no, no, all the Pinks are going to be slaughtered on next day. There won't be any Pinks left. And apparently this differing opinion on basic church doctrine, like, was a thread that was carried on for a very long time.

[Josh Clark]

It was. And I think we just need to be really clear. A schism was written into the script of the Church of the Subgenius.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

It was nothing. Formed they wrote a heel basically into their wrestling show with Papa Joe Mama, who was the leader of the Holocaustals, who believed. And again, all in jest, but he believed, like, go out and shoot the rich, basically like, kill these people. And I think it was Stang was the leader of the Evangelicals, which was, yeah, let's just enslave Them, basically, and keep them alive. And two things here. First of all, in that they eventually had a big show in the 80s, kind of jumping back in San Francisco. They had had these sort of small tent D Vivals with 100 people. And then in San Francisco, they booked this theater for two nights. 900 seat theater for two nights. And we're like, we don't really know if we can do this. And they had set builders and set designers. And it became a real, actual thing. The news covered it. And they did. They covered it. And they had a fake assassination of Bob. Bob finally came out.

[Chuck Bryant]

He walked out on stage and then bang.

[Josh Clark]

He was immediately shot. But apparently they started doing this a lot. Bob had many, many lives. And could be killed over and over again, assassinated. So there was that. And then after X day, judging from the documentary, is when it seemed to like kind of go bad and not go bad in that everybody really started believing. And it became this really scary thing. But it sort of lost its zhuzh a little bit. And there were some people. And I think one person specifically even went up to Stang. I don't know if it was the X day.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think it was a San Francisco show in 1984.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. And he was, you know, obviously someone who needed some real help. Because he thought this was all real. Was livid that it wasn't being taken seriously. And that people were laughing. And that's when Stang was like, ah, man, like kind of, this was bound to happen. But it also made him sad because I'd never wanted anything like this.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. And that was the reason why. So, like, the documentary that was made by Sandy K. Boone. Who was involved in a few other pretty great documentaries recently, including Tower. I don't think it's the Tower, just Tower. The one about the. The Charles Whitman. The shooting at the University of Texas back in the 60s. Oh, it's amazing. So remember Waking Life, that whole thing Linkletter did with the animation? They did that for this documentary. And it really, like, had a great impact.

[Josh Clark]

The rotoscoping.

[Chuck Bryant]

Cool. Yes. So she was involved in that as well. But she made this documentary. Apparently her late husband was like, what a great adherent in the Church of the Subgenius. And she made it also kind of as an ode to him as well. But in it, Stang and Philo break character. And like, they hadn't broken character for 30 something years. Right. Like, they've done interviews. They've like print, tv, radio. Like, they've done the radio show. They've like written tons of books. They just don't break character. That's just part of their jam. And for this documentary, they did, and they said the reason why. At least Stang said the reason why he did was because they're kind of getting on in years, and he wants to make sure that it's perfectly clear before he dies that this is a joke and that everybody knows it was a joke, and it's always been a joke, and there's, like, you need to take it as a joke so that it doesn't accidentally turn into something like Scientology down the road, down the line.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He said you watched it, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, I didn't watch it right before this. I saw it several months ago.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He said, and this kind of sums it up in the way that it makes sense, but it doesn't. And this is in relation to that guy who really came up to him and other people that really thought it was real. He said, we always wanted to trick people, but we didn't really want to trick people.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. Yes, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. They were fascinated by the fact that people could be tricked.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And they wanted to explore that and make fun of it, and they invited other people to explore it and make fun of it. But it wasn't to hurt anybody. They weren't actually trying to exploit anybody. Like, the idea of having you become a part of. Become a member, send in your dollar, become ordained, buy into all that sales stuff was to point out that that's what was going on in the real world, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And this sort of came to a head in the 90s when they. It was just after Columbine, they had a live show planned in Boston, and Papa Joe Mama, who was, again, their sort of scripted heel. Agent provocateur, got on, I think, a radio show and somehow referenced Columbine. It was a little unclear.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think he blamed Columbine on the church of the subgenius.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, was that what it was?

[Chuck Bryant]

I believe so.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. Cause I couldn't quite tell what the reference was, but it was clear that that was over the line for both Philo and Stang. And the show was originally canceled by the theater. And then a real church, I think, like an Episcopal church, stepped up weirdly and said, you can have it at our church. And then they got bomb threats, and they said, well, no, I guess we can't do that. And then I think they ended up having it in a public park or something. But that was sort of like where it, you know, the 90s weren't too kind to the. Not just like the numbers, but, you know, once the Internet was born and that was like really when the consumer culture and the Internet boom happened for real. It was just so antithetical to the Church of the Subgenius. It seemed to kind of fade away until later on when the Internet kind of helped revive it again.

[Chuck Bryant]

So my take is that what really kind of led it to Down Hill. Not to say that there's like, like it. Not to say that it's. It went downhill on its own. Like that just, just the world changed.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And there was like, the world became the parody. Not. It wasn't like straight any longer, it was just a joke. But that was real life now. So you can't satirize something that is the satire that you're coming up with. There's just no way to do it.

[Josh Clark]

No, that's absolutely right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that's, you know, America changed quite a bit in the last like 20 years. And the, like, what do you like how you just can't, you can't satirize something when it becomes this weird version of itself that you were using before it encroached on your turf kind of thing, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And in the last like 10 minutes of the documentary, sort of focus on the Trump administration and these fringe groups that started online there saying this crazy made up stuff. And that really puts a hurting, like you said, on something like the Church of the Subgenius as far as being. And their numbers were never huge. But I get the idea from watching it that Stang still has people that write in that still send him some money. He told one funny joke about getting a payment upon receipt envelope that he had to pay $2 to even open this thing. And he was all perturbed about that. And there was $1,000 in cash.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, really?

[Josh Clark]

And he took half of it and immediately took it to a sick friend. Like, that's the kind of guy he is.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, that's cool. Yeah, he struck me as that as well.

[Josh Clark]

But he's still, you know, paying his mortgage stuff in envelopes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah, because I think like if you go back and you read the original books and you know, even still I was reading like the wikia that explained all of the different stuff is hilarious and like totally worthwhile and still applies today. Like it's like in a, in a certain way it's timeless even though it screams Reagan era, you know? Yeah, but it's still, it still makes sense because we still have Like a consumer driven culture that is. That has a lot to do with gender norms and conformity and exploiting people for their labor. Like all that stuff is still going on. So the original stuff still still stands and still holds.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And they, you know, Mark Motherspaugh of Devo and I can't remember the other guy's name in Devo. They were way into it. Penn Jillette, Nick Offerman, Richard Linklater, Paul Rubens, Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse out of Bob Dobbs on his Big wall collage. These were all people that were attracted to it. It was a lot of dudes, of course, but they do interview a few of the women in the original group. That said, like, we were outcasts and we wanted to meet these weirdo guys. And this is where we did it. Like we went there because it was mostly guys and, you know, we could meet these dudes, but it was very male oriented. And I don't know, I just, like I said, I never. I always had fun reading about it and hearing about it, but never wanted to get too involved just because I'm too much of a pink, I guess.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yes, it is a lot of fun to read about, for sure. Like there's a lot of stuff out there on the Internet to read.

[Josh Clark]

This is like 10% of it.

[Chuck Bryant]

I incur. Yeah, it's huge. It's an enormous, huge, rambling, like what do you call a group of beliefs in scripture and doctrine?

[Jerry]

Mythos, I guess, maybe.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, canon.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, canon. That's what I was looking for. There's a huge, extensive canon. And it's a lot of fun, especially the older stuff. Some of the newer stuff is not that funny because it's. And I don't mean new. I mean like mid 2000s, the mid aughts kind of stuff started to really lose its sense of humor. Some people lost their sense of humor and got real serious about it. The 80s and 90s stuff is hilarious. I strongly recommend going to read an explanation of the male to female discrepancy in the Church of the Subgenius by Reverend Nancy Regalia.

[Josh Clark]

Or by the Braille book.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, well, I don't think that was in the book. That was just supplemental stuff. It was an essay explaining it. But it also is more like a kind of a call to arms for those girls who never felt like or always recognized that they were kind of being forced into certain gender roles and didn't ever feel good about it. Yeah, she had a quote. It's not enough to simply burn your bras. Why stop there. Burn a few bridal boutiques in City hall while you're at it. It's just a good. It's a good essay for sure. Totally worth reading. So, yeah, there's a lot more to say about the Church of the Subgenius, but we'll just leave it to you. I feel like we should just part with. It's a joke. It is a joke. Ultimately, it's a joke and take it as that. Okay, man, you got that down. You got some yeti in you, pink boy.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, maybe.

[Chuck Bryant]

And since I called Chuck a pink boy, it's time for listener mail.

[Josh Clark]

Keeping it short and sweet here with a quick correction from a new listener. Okay, hi, guys. I'm a very new listener and I love what I've heard so far. However, just three episodes in about the Magna Carta, one of you offhandedly suggested that William the Conqueror was a beloved English king because he annexed Normandy after the Battle of Hastings.

[Chuck Bryant]

That was me.

[Josh Clark]

That's pretty much backwards, guys. He was a Norman king who conquered England at that battle. William's story would make a great episode. That is from Scott Scattergood in Suwon, Korea.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, Scott, since you're new, you obviously don't know that most of the viewpoint that we give on Stuff youf Should Know is from the Vikings viewpoint. So we had it right.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Scott Scattergood. What a great name, right? Yeah. What happens if you scramble Scott around Scattersgood? If you want to get in touch with us like Scott did, you can send us an email to stuffpodcastheartradio.com Stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit.

[Chuck Bryant]

The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

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[Jerry]

Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges but also incredible strength, especially for those living with conditions like myasthenia gravis or mg. And chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as cidp. Finding empowerment in the community is critical. Untold Stories Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, A Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenics, explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places. Listen to untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Pedigree believes dogs bring out the good in people. Pedigree brings out the good in them. With high quality nutrition at an affordable price. They offer a variety of tasty dry food, wet food, and treats that your dog will love. They're made with high quality ingredients and they have great taste in every bowl. Plus they support total Health. Visit your local retailer to try Pedigree products for the nutrition your dog needs and a taste your dog will love. Learn more at pedigree.comfeed-good feed the good.

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[Chuck Bryant]

This is an iHeart podcast.