Selects: What exactly is stoicism?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What Exactly is Stoicism?" – Stuff You Should Know

Release Date: July 19, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark & Charles W. Chuck Bryant
Production: iHeartPodcasts

---

Introduction to Stoicism

In this insightful episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosts Josh Clark and Charles W. Chuck Bryant delve into the philosophy of Stoicism. Initially introduced amidst casual banter and light-hearted exchanges, the discussion swiftly transitions into a comprehensive exploration of Stoic principles, their historical roots, modern applications, and ongoing debates surrounding the philosophy.

Defining Stoicism

Chuck begins by referencing an urban dictionary definition to simplify Stoicism for listeners:

Charles W. Chuck Bryant [06:20]: "Stoic is someone who does not give a beep about the stupid things in this world that most people care so much about. Stoics do have emotions, but only for the things in this world that really matter."

This playful definition captures the essence of Stoicism as a philosophy centered on emotional restraint and focusing on what truly matters.

Josh expands on this, emphasizing the Stoic approach to life:

Josh Clark [10:12]: "If you could apply that to everything, you'd be pretty high up there in the stoic pantheon."

He highlights Stoicism's dual appeal: it serves both as a practical guide for daily living and offers a flexible framework where individuals can adopt aspects that resonate with them.

Historical Roots of Stoicism

Tracing back to Ancient Greece, the hosts discuss the origins of Stoicism with Zeno of Citium as its founder. Zeno, having endured a shipwreck, began formulating his own philosophical ideas inspired by the Cynics and Socratic thought.

Charles W. Chuck Bryant [15:13]: "Zeno of Citium. There were other Zenos, not to be confused."

Josh provides context on how Stoicism evolved alongside other philosophical schools during the Age of Reason, aiming to achieve eudaimonia—a flourishing and fulfilling life.

Core Principles of Stoicism

The philosophy is built upon three main areas of study:

1. Physics ([30:53]): Encompasses the natural world and the universe's interconnectedness.
2. Logic ([33:42]): Involves reasoning, epistemology, and understanding knowledge.
3. Ethics ([35:35]): Focuses on living a virtuous life through four cardinal virtues:
   • Courage
   • Justice
   • Wisdom
   • Temperance

A pivotal Stoic concept discussed is the Dichotomy of Control, which distinguishes between what we can and cannot control, encouraging individuals to focus their energy on the former.

Josh Clark [27:46]: "You should not become overjoyed. Experiencing joy is fine, but just being overcome with happiness or joy or grief or whatever it is, you're violating one of those four cardinal virtues, temperance."

Stoicism in Modern Context

Stoicism has seen a revival, particularly in Silicon Valley, resonating with professionals seeking resilience and emotional balance in high-pressure environments. Its principles have also influenced modern cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), especially through the teachings of Epictetus:

Josh Clark [48:55]: "The cognitive model of emotion, which is the basis of cognitive behavioral therapy, is based on Epictetus's maxim that people are disturbed not by things, but by their view of things."

The episode highlights Admiral James Stockdale as a prominent Stoic who applied Stoic teachings to survive seven years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, demonstrating the philosophy's practical strength.

Practices Within Stoicism

One notable Stoic practice discussed is Negative Visualization:

Josh Clark [44:01]: "Negative visualization is essentially imagining the worst-case scenario constantly."

While intended to prepare individuals for adversity and reduce the impact of unexpected hardships, the hosts express mixed feelings about its practicality and emotional toll.

Criticisms of Stoicism

The philosophy is not without its detractors. Cicero criticized Stoicism for dampening enthusiasm and fostering a detached demeanor:

Charles W. Chuck Bryant [45:46]: "Cicero wrote, a stoic rouse enthusiasm. He is much more likely to extinguish any enthusiasm the student may have to begin with."

Additional criticisms include Stoicism being perceived as a philosophy for the wealthy, potentially serving as a societal pacifier by encouraging individuals to focus on personal virtue rather than collective social change.

Josh Clark [57:16]: "It seems like a bit of a pacifier too."

Balancing Individual and Social Responsibility

A significant point of discussion revolves around Stoicism’s emphasis on individual control and how it addresses or potentially overlooks the need for collective social action. The hosts ponder whether Stoic principles can coexist with efforts to enact massive social change.

Josh Clark [55:07]: "How would a stoic suggest enacting massive social change where something, some ill is happening to some large group of people?"

This raises questions about the applicability of Stoicism in addressing systemic issues, suggesting a possible tension between personal virtue and social activism.

Conclusion

Josh and Chuck conclude that while Stoicism offers valuable tools for personal resilience and ethical living, its practical application, especially regarding emotional practices like negative visualization and broader social implications, warrants careful consideration. They encourage listeners to explore Stoicism further and adopt its principles selectively, highlighting its flexibility as a philosophical "buffet."

Josh Clark [57:31]: "If you want to know more about Stoicism, Bud, there's a lot more out there than this. Just dive in and see what it means to you."

---

For those interested in delving deeper into Stoicism, exploring primary texts by Epictetus, Seneca, and Marcus Aurelius, as well as contemporary interpretations, is recommended. This episode provides a foundational understanding, inviting listeners to engage with the philosophy on their own terms.

Transcript

[Josh Clark]

This is an Iheart podcast.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You know, Lowe's knows that taking on more projects should be rewarding. And that's why loyalty members get more every day with rewards for every home or business purchase. Plus shop weekly member deals and get access to free standard shipping. So what are you waiting for? Join Myloes Rewards for free today loyalty program subject to terms and conditions. Details@lowe's.com Terms subject to change.

[Josh Clark]

Pedigree believes dogs bring out the good in people. Pedigree brings out the good in them with high quality nutrition at an affordable price. They offer a variety of tasty dry food, wet food, and treats that your dog will love. They're made with high quality ingredients and they have great taste in every bowl. Plus, they support total health. Visit your local retailer to try Pedigree products for the nutrition your dog needs and a taste your dog will love. Learn [e-mail] Feed good. Feed the good.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Hi, everybody. I'm feeling very stoic today, so we're going to use what exactly is Stoicism? As our weekly select selection. This one was released in July. July 4th, in fact. 2017. What a great 4th of July topic. Learn all about stoicism right here. Right. Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant, guest producer. Noel. Jerry's. Jerry's been out a lot lately, Chuck. Have you noticed?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Uh, no.

[Josh Clark]

Nah, I haven't really either.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Of course, Jerry's got big life things going on.

[Josh Clark]

She does.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Buying and selling houses. She's like a real estate mogul visiting.

[Josh Clark]

The mall, doing all sorts of stuff.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

We're just a couple of deep thinkers hanging out on the Stoa.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Specifically, what is it? The Stoa. Did you practice the word? The pronunciation at all?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I tried to pronounce a lot of this, but you know, Ancient Greek. You know the phrase it's all Greek to me.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That comes from not being able to pronounce these things.

[Josh Clark]

It's quite literal. The Stoa Poikili. I think that's probably pretty close, Man.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So can I start this with a couple of quick thoughts?

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

First of all, I took four different philosophy quizzes before we recorded.

[Josh Clark]

Like, what kind of philosophy do you subscribe to? Type quiz.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, the ones that are super accurate.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Because they can figure that out in eight to 15 questions.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. And then you can move on and find out what Muppet you are.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So here's my results here. For the first one, I was epicurean okay. The second one, Existentialism.

[Josh Clark]

All right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Third one, atheist. Existentialist.

[Josh Clark]

Huh.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And the fourth, Nietzsche. Stoic.

[Josh Clark]

Nietzsche was a huge critic of Stoicism. I'm surprised they put those two together.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, that is Chuck, though. You know what I'm saying?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. You're a contradiction in terms. You're yin and yang.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, I am. The reason why I took these is because when I was doing the research on Stoicism, I found me. I found myself a lot of times going, yep, yep, totally. And then a lot of times going, no, that's really not me.

[Josh Clark]

Same here, same here. And I think the. Even the Stoics from back in the day realized that there were very few, very, very few actual, what they called sages walking around. Stoic sages who really fulfilled every aspect of this to a T. Yeah. And I think that, I think one of the reasons why Stoicism today is making a comeback and it's so appealing is because. Well, there's two reasons. One more than kind of a navel gazing type philosophy where you're trying to figure out the nature of existence or something like that. It's more a blueprint for existing day to day in a. In a useful, happy way.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

And then secondly, it's. You can kind of pick and choose. It's almost like a buffet. You can pick and choose what aspects of it you want to adopt or use. And no Greek ghost is going to come along and spear you in the.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Face with the trident.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Poseidon punch. Yeah. And I think that's. I mean, first of all, the age of Reason fascinates me to no end. And second, I've kind of wanted to cover some of the great philosophies of all time.

[Josh Clark]

This sounds like a good start.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, it is, but it's just kind of daunting because people spend like that's their life's work, you know, and for us to try and summarize any of them in 30 to 45 minutes is kind of like, you know, I don't know what philosophy you would liken that to. Foolishism.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Duncesm.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That's what we do, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Well, let's. How about this? If this one goes well, maybe we'll take it as a sign that we can tackle some other ones. But you're absolutely right. Like even the. Even just like say the Internet Encyclopedia of philosophy, which is meant, you know, it's sharp and it's detailed and it's exhaustive, but it's also clearly meant for lay people interested in Philosophy. Right. It's just this. Just stoicism is so involved that it's not possible for us to like really capture all of it, even in an overview, you know, or giving it. Just hitting the highlights. We can't possibly hit all the highlights. There's just too much to it. And that's just stoicism. I still say it's worth talking about though, just because it's so interesting.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So if I get up in the middle, you're going to pull me back?

[Josh Clark]

I'll just keep going.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, I like the urban dictionary definition.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Stoic is someone who does not give a beep about the stupid things in this world that most people care so much about. Stoics do have emotions, but only for the things in this world that really matter. They are the most real people alive. And then in their little example is a group of kids sitting by the porch. Stoic walks by. One kid says something very mean. Hey, you're a blankety blank. And you blank blank. And the stoic says, good for you and keeps going.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So part of me really, like, I hear that and I'm like, man, I am so that person on so many levels. But then sometimes I'm totally not. And I think what the difference is or what matters is. Well, it depends on if they say something that matters to you or if something does matter to you. Like, I might get really riled up about some stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Well, that would make you not stoic.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That doesn't rile anyone else up. But I also some things that really make other people irate. I'm just like, man, can't change it. It is what it is. And I only can get upset about the things I can change.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, if you could apply that to everything, you'd be pretty high up there in the stoic pantheon.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I'd be a stoic, five star general.

[Josh Clark]

Pretty much five finger punch guy.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

All right, so we beat around the bush. I mean, that was a pretty good definition, actually. Even though it was from the urban dictionary.

[Josh Clark]

We should say we picked that one up from an AE article. Why stoicism is one of the best mind hacks ever devised.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it was a good one by Larry Wallace.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he did a good job kind of giving an overview of the whole thing.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think Larry Wallace is one of the great modern stoicists.

[Josh Clark]

Maybe there's plenty of them running around these days.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but we're, I mean, we'll go back in time and study the beginnings of stoicism because we're talking about like, you hear the word stoic today, and it means it was taken from this, but it's kind of someone like sort of a grim face. Stoic doesn't say much. And that's not what stoicism, and they say in our article several times with a capital S really is all about.

[Josh Clark]

Right? Yeah. These days, people typically, or I should say these days, up to about three years ago, people thought of stoics as somebody who could watch their dog get hit by a car. And, you know, their reaction was to raise their chin a little higher up in the air, you know, like just grin and bear it, as Larry put it. I'm on a first name basis with Larry Wallace, that it's a philosophy of grim endurance, tolerating rather than transcending life's agonies and adversities, just kind of trudging through, just taking hit after hit from life as it deals. Deals them to you. Right. That was the idea of stoicism. You, you can kind of like, it's not like, that's just radically unlike actual stoicism, but it's an outsider's interpretation of what the stoics are actually doing, what's actually going on, the purpose of the whole thing, that outsider's view that doesn't really fully understand it, became the popular view until recently, until it started to kind of gain some traction lately.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, you know, throughout the years, stoicism has informed some religions. These days, there are a lot of atheists that are stoics. But I like how our article says it. Above all, it teaches the value of emotional control in living one's life fully.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So here's the basis of it. The basis of it is if you can detach yourself from emotional responses to things, then something that comes along, whether good or bad, is not going to get your goat.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Stoicism is all about protecting your goat and not letting anything get it. And the way that, the way that they do that is by saying there are very few things that I can control in life and everything that I can't control. I'm not going to get up, riled up over, you know, lose my job. Oh, well, it happens. It doesn't mean I'm any less of a person. I just need to go out and get another job. Dog gets hit by a car, well, that's really awful because I really like that dog. But I'll just go get another dog. Or maybe I'll just learn to live without the dog. Maybe I was becoming too attached to the dog. Things like that. That's stoicism the whole point of it is it's not just to get your goat or to protect your goat from being gotten. It's about living a moral life where you're a very good human being. And the idea is that the only way to really do that is through things like rationalism and, and investigating the universe and being understanding of knowledge and then pursuing ethics, specific ethics. And they figured out the best way to do that is dispassionately.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think my bumper sticker would say, onboard colon, part time stoicist, full time dreamer.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, that is a specific.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, right.

[Josh Clark]

Bumper sticker.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I used to have a lot of bumper stickers in high school and now I loathe them so much.

[Josh Clark]

Really? What did you have, like.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I had an old Volkswagen Beetle that was my family actually bought brand new in 1968 and was passed down from kid to kid to kid.

[Josh Clark]

It's an ear lube.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

It was, it was very cool, I thought at the time. Well, it is cool. I love those old Beetles. But I just went through one of those phases where I was like, you know, here's a Native American saying and here's something about mother Nature and this Bob Marley had this to say and just. Yeah, I was one of those. And now I see those cars with all the things and I'm just like, shut up, Nobody cares.

[Josh Clark]

It's funny.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Maybe I'm a silly rat.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, did you have a 311 sticker?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No, this was pre 311, actually.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, gotcha. So did your mom come out and be like, what'd you do to the family heirloom?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

You put stickers all over it.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No. It's funny, that car had a. The rear floorboard was missing on one side.

[Josh Clark]

My dad had a car like that in Malibu.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So you could like see the street.

[Josh Clark]

Uh huh.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I had a piece of wood there.

[Josh Clark]

Now that I look back, he didn't even have a piece of wood. Now that I look back, I'm like, that was extraordinarily irresponsible to be driving around with kids in the backseat with the street visible.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I love that. Your dad was just like, watch your feet, kids.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, easy does it.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

All right, so you want to go back and talk about the history a little bit?

[Josh Clark]

No, I want to keep beating around the bush.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

All right, let's get in the Wayback machine and we need to really juice it up because we're going way back.

[Josh Clark]

Got some kerosene, got some banana peels, and got some airplane glue. But that's just for us.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Because it's a long ride.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Ancient Greece is where we're headed, to the time of the great philosophers. And like we said earlier, sitting here on the Stoa, that was a joke. But it wasn't. And you said stoa? You gonna try it again?

[Josh Clark]

The Stoa Poikili.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yes. Or painted porch is what it means. And that was a public space in Athens, Greece.

[Josh Clark]

It was like a portico.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Where people would hang out and talk and chew the fat. And that's what I love about this time was people, they were just alive with ideas, these philosophical ideas of trying to figure it all out.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But don't you think, like, every once in a while you'd just be like, oh, everybody shut up.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Go do something useful.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Plant a field.

[Josh Clark]

Stop talking. Yeah. No, but I agree with you. Overall, it was a pretty thrilling time.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Did you take philosophy in college at all?

[Josh Clark]

No. No, I didn't. I really did not. I don't think I took a single philosophy class, now that I think about it. Not even a survey.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I took the one kind of general class, I guess it was the 101. And I actually made an A, which I didn't make a ton of A's in college. And I remember at the time, kind of the same thing. About half the class, I was like, man, so fascinating. And then the other half, I was just like, oh, man, what a waste of time. Like, do something useful. Go, like, volunteer for a charity.

[Josh Clark]

Go make something out of wood. Anything.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

All right, so back to the Stoa. We're on this painted porch, this portico, as it were. People are everywhere, running their mouths about what they think is important. And then this dude wanders up. Zeno of Citium.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Who'd recently been shipwrecked.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

There were other Zenos, not to be confused.

[Josh Clark]

I know that is confusing. There should be one Zeno.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

There can be a lot. In all of history, there were Zenos of other things, but this is Zeno of Citium. And you're right, he was shipwrecked, and he was wandering around after a trip from Cyprus.

[Josh Clark]

Did you say we're in Athens?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah. Not Georgia.

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Although we did our fair share of sitting around on porches talking nonsense there as well.

[Josh Clark]

But that's a porch porch.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Not a Greek porch.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And so Zeno took a little bit of insight from the cynics and then eventually said, you know what? I got my kind of forming my own thoughts here. And I think everyone else is doing it. I have my Own philosophy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And it's called Stoicism.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Named after later. I don't think he called it that. I'm not sure. He probably called it Zenoism. They're like, that sucks. We're going to call it stoicism, after the porch.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

But this is. I mean, like the Stoicism very quickly became one of the big philosophies at the time.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And it rivaled some of the philosophies that it grew out of, like Socratic philosophy and like you said, cynicism. The cynics.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

And actually, if you look at stoicism, it's kind of a compromise between Socrates, or Socrates, as Bill and Ted call them.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Philosophy, which was that to lead a good life. And this was the point of all of the philosophies at this time, during this age of reason.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Was achieving what was called eudaimonia. And eudaimonia is a life worth living. It's thriving, it's flourishing. It's being happy, like real happiness. Right. That was a pursuit of all of these different ideas that were floating around at the time, was how to achieve that. Socrates had the idea that you achieved that through like 12 cardinal virtues. And some of them were things you could cultivate in yourself, like courage, a sense of justice, that kind of stuff. But then there are other ones too, that had, like, everything to do with luck. Like being good looking was one of them. Right?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

If you weren't good looking, if you were ugly, sorry, buddy, you could never achieve Eudaimonia. Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

On the other end of the spectrum were the cynics. And the cynics believed that earthly trappings like wealth and fame and glory, anything like that, was the path to ruin. And that the true path to Eudaimonia was living simply and living in poverty. And so Zeno comes along and hears all these, and as he's formulating his own ideas, he's like, socrates makes some sense over here. And so do the cynics a little bit. But. But I'm going to put them together. And that's where stoicism came from. It was a compromise between the two. Where you live a life of pursuing eudaimonia through these virtues. Four virtues, I think there's justice, courage, wisdom, and then temperance. Right. So you're practicing those four virtues. So that's kind of a nod to Socrates. And you don't have to live in poverty. You can be wealthy. Because if stoicism is anything, it's wealthy people who got into philosophy that Weren't quite sure how to feel about being.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Wealthy, to kind of come to the point that, like, having money is not a bad thing. Right, right.

[Josh Clark]

And so what they came up with was, sure, you can be wealthy and that's okay. You can prefer to be wealthy, but you just can't be attached to it. You can't desire to be wealthy because you can't control being wealthy. And if you pursue being wealthy, you're pursuing something beyond your control. So if you just happen to be wealthy, that's great. You can be happy with it, but also be prepared to lose it at any given time. And that's a big part of stoicism.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I think it's so funny, though, to think about, like, thousands of years ago in ancient Greece, they spent so much time thinking about living this. All these schools of thought of living this life. So, like, putting so much thought into living life to its fullest and all the different ways that they defined it. And eventually, like, over the years, like, as recently as, like, the generation of our parents and grandparents, the United States, like, the philosophy of life was like, you just go to work and you work hard until you die, and that's the only thing that matters.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Like, all that other stuff is garbage.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Well, I think that's one of the reasons why stoicism is becoming appealing again is this idea that, like, work seems to be kind of going through a weird transformation, doesn't it? Yeah, like, it's not like that anymore. Like that that ethic is still around for sure. But how many people do you know work from home? Like, almost entirely.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

A lot.

[Josh Clark]

A lot. And that's fairly new. So I wonder if, like, this changing work dynamic is leading to this resurgence in stoicism, that you can find happiness through other stuff.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I mean, part of me thinks this is all, like, super worthwhile, and part of me thinks it's sort of indulgent and a bit like you said, navel gazy and like, put. Just start practicing good things instead of sitting around thinking about the best way to live life.

[Josh Clark]

Well, we'll talk about criticisms of them later on, but I think you hit a big one though, Chuck. Was the idea that it's self indulgent because it demands introspection almost every moment of every day.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You want to take a break and then get back to it?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I got to get my head together. But that airplane glue. All right.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices with sofas starting at $699. Anabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anibe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus, our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Unknown]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through August 12th. Get great savings on your favorite self care items and earn four times points when you shop in store or online store. Online shop for items like Neutrogena Cleansing and Makeup removing towelettes, Dove Men 2 in 1 shampoo and conditioner, Dove Shampoo, Tresemme Shampoo Method Body Wash and Suave Body wash and earn 4 times points. Use these points for discounts on groceries or gas. Offer ends August 12th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Josh Clark]

Huddle up. We got one play.

[Unknown]

Everything we work for comes down to this. Quick question. Speaking of workouts, how would you rate your athletic program?

Bro, we're in the middle of the state championship.

Oh, so like a B then?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Dude, get out of our huddle.

[Unknown]

Well, at holmes.com we leave it all on the field to get you detailed information on local schools.

Off the field.

Off the field. Copy. All right. Go sports.

How'd he even get in here?

Holmes.com Bingo. We've done your homework.

[Josh Clark]

Nothing like airplane glue to get your head back on straight, isn't it?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Just kidding. Of course, everyone.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

We're smart guys. We don't do that kind of thing.

[Josh Clark]

No, it's pretty tough to be smart and huff model airplane glue. Yeah, it's pretty. You're pretty much making a choice between that and being smart.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That's what they teach you early on. Yeah, like you want to go somewhere in life you want to huff airplane glue.

[Josh Clark]

It's the one thing Nancy Reagan didn't lie about.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

All right, so Zeno got things going. Peace of mind that comes with living a Life of virtue in accordance with reason and nature. And then other dudes got on boards. And of course got on boards. Got on board. And they were all dudes back then because everything was from the man's perspective. Just wanted to point that out.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because it's changed so dramatically since then.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

But some of the other early Stoicists. Cleanthes. Cato.

[Josh Clark]

Cato the younger or elder? Younger. Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Cato the Kalin.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man, I forgot about him.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I'm not sure which Cato.

[Josh Clark]

I think it's the younger. Yeah, we'll find out from two people who email in to let us know.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Seneca. And then a very important Stoicist. Well, I'm going to pronounce it Epictetus.

[Josh Clark]

Epictetus.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Epictetus.

[Josh Clark]

Sounds like a vaccine shot.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

It does. E P, I, C, T E, T.

[Josh Clark]

U, S. It's that C going into a T that's getting you. Yeah, I think it's just Epictetus or Epictetus. I think Epictetus is what we should go with.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I want another C in there. I want it to be Epitectus. But it's not.

[Josh Clark]

No, it's not. It's Epictetus.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

All right, so.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, and don't forget Marcus Aurelius, man.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, well, sure. I mean, he comes a little bit later. He was the ruler of ancient man. What is my problem today?

[Josh Clark]

It's okay, man. Everyone knew what you meant.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

He was the philosopher king. And that was when Stoicism was kind of the most popular thing going.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah. Apparently they moved from Athens to Rome, which I didn't realize this. I always had the idea that Rome venerated Hellenistic Greece hundreds of years after. Basically the Greek civilization had just kind of, you know, gone into a bit of a twilight or had gone out of its heyday.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

No, there was total cross pollination, including some of these early Stoics who traveled from Athens to Rome and basically with that move transferred the seed of philosophy from Athens to Rome, from Greek to Rome, from Greece to Rome. I didn't realize that they were actually like cross pollinating one another at the time. Did you know that?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think I recalled that from deep in my college memory banks.

[Josh Clark]

Nice.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So Epictetus Tetus, man, he had a big role in the Stoic movement. He was a former slave, which kind of makes sense in terms of Stoicism.

[Josh Clark]

He almost, almost single handedly gives credence to Stoicism because so many other Stoics were extraordinarily wealthy, powerful men that it's like. Yeah, it's pretty Easy for you to go through life saying, you know, it's just. Just take what life gives you. If life is giving you nothing but gold bullion all the time. Right. This guy was born a slave, crippled in the knee for life, and became a stoic, one of the great stoic thinkers, and just through his life proved that stoicism can work.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And he wrote a handbook at the time was called an enchiridion, and he wrote the Enchiridion of Epictetus.

[Josh Clark]

Enciritium literally means handbook. It means ready at hand.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So it was a very famous handbook. And he attributed. I mean, the first line of it was, some things are in our control and others not. And that kind of sums it all up. Like, he could have said the end, but he decided to dive a little deeper.

[Josh Clark]

I agree with you. I think our brand of stoicism has about the same contours, because right there, that's everything you need to know. Right. There is some things you can control. Most things you can't control. There you go.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Like, don't get too high, too low.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Don't get too mad about something.

[Josh Clark]

Well, ultimately, I think that's what it boils down to. I don't really find much of a problem when people are overjoyed. I don't think that's an issue. And technically, with stoicism, that's a problem. You should not become overjoyed. Experiencing joy is fine, but just being overcome with happiness or joy or grief or whatever it is, you're violating one of those four cardinal virtues, temperance, which is just being tempered and even keeled.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

But I think if you're saying, don't get upset about something that's out of your control, don't blame others, don't try to control other people. Just know that whatever comes, you can handle it. There you go. That's all you need to know for me.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, you know, I mean, how many times have you heard me say, it is what it is? Which is an annoying thing to hear and say, but it's pretty stoic. Well, it is, but it's also, in my case, like, it is what it is until it isn't. It just matters if I personally riled up about something, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But I think again, though, if, like, there's probably some people who list who. Who subscribe to at least modern stoicism, listening to this, and I would guess that they would say that's because stoicism is basically meant to apply to every day of your life. Like, no, stoics are really expected to become sages in their lifetimes.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

That it's something you just do every single day is try to not get riled up. But of course something's going to come along and get you riled up. That's just human nature. Stoicism is trying to put a bridle on that human nature.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Well, and this is insider stuff. I think you and I complement each other because we rarely get worked up about the same thing.

[Josh Clark]

Just voter suppression.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, no, it happens here and there, but just in our personal lives and everything to do with work, like, oftentimes I've noticed, like, something that'll rile me up, you're calming me down, and the other way around. And, I mean, I think that's one reason we've lasted so long. Like, if two people were so similar that they're constantly worked up about the same stuff. No one. You know, you're just gonna be working each other up, and no one's gonna be there to say, hey, man, it is what it is.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, man. Hey, mellow out. Here's the Bob Marley bumper sticker.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Exactly. So should we talk a little bit about the areas of study? Yeah. All right. Well, there are three main ones in stoicism. And this is all to deal with introspection, which is kind of like all philosophies. Physics is the first thing. And it's not physics like you think of that you hate studying in high school.

[Josh Clark]

Well, it falls under a larger umbrella term, I guess.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. They're talking about the natural world, the natural universe, and also what lies beyond it. And when they say the natural world, they're talking about everything. God, the divine nature, Everything that we know and things that we don't know.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Everything we would view as science or, like you said, nature. Yeah. All that stuff. That's physics and all of it. One of the things the stoics, I think if they weren't the first to come up with it, they definitely popularized it, was the idea that all of this was interconnected.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Which is pretty. I mean, you take it for granted today, like, everybody thinks that everything's interconnected these days.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

But to be among the first to kind of point that out or suggest that's pretty. Pretty significant contribution to Western thought.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I imagine that was a pretty deep thing when it first started hitting people.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. You know, can't you just see George Carlin being like, oh, you just blew my mind.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, because he was so great, man.

[Josh Clark]

Wait, no, he wasn't so crazy. He was.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No, he Was the.

[Josh Clark]

The guide their spirit Angel?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

What was his name? I'm gonna get killed on this.

[Josh Clark]

We'll just edit this part out.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I didn't know I had to brush up on my Bill and Ted.

[Josh Clark]

I didn't either. I surprised myself. You should have seen my face.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You know, they kept talking about remakes, like as recently as a couple years ago, I think. Or not remakes, but sequels with the originals. Oh, yeah. Like Keanu Reeves was like, man, I love those movies. I'd love to go make another one.

[Josh Clark]

Did you see what. What is. So was Keanu Reeves Bill or Ted? Why are we even doing this to ourselves?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Boy, I want to say he was Ted.

[Josh Clark]

So the guy who played the other guy.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Alex Winter.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, geez, Chuck. Wow, nice job. So Alex Winter was in. What was the Charles Bronson vehicle, like his most fake Death wish. Death Wish three. Death Wish three was what he was in, which was when Goal and Globus got their hands on it and turned it into like a schlock, violent, like, almost post apocalyptic movie. Yeah, and he's great in it, but he's also in a documentary on Golan Globus. I can't remember what the name of the name of the documentaries, but it's just about how bad the movies they made were and how gleefully these guys made them. But he's interviewed in it. That guy hasn't aged a day.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No, he looks exactly Bill.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, so he's Bill.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

All right, so.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So we got that settled.

[Josh Clark]

Physics is done. What's next?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Logic, which they wanted to include social sciences, psychology, sociology, history, which I kind of like. I'm down with that. As far as the philosophies go, they wanted to include all this stuff, but collectively they kind of called this all reason. It was a very big deal to stoicism, perhaps the biggest deal.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And they also were engaged in epistemology, which is theories of what knowledge is, how we gain knowledge, what's true, what's belief, what's false, how do we differentiate between these things? And they spend a lot of time investigating this and putting it all under logic, because it was through logic that you could investigate physics, which included investigating God and the nature of universe and stuff like that. And then through all that, that investigation, that introspection, that navel gazing, you were ultimately figuring out how to best pursue and best live out the third part, which was the ethics of the whole thing.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And you mentioned the four great virtues earlier. Courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And the whole idea here is it's not like you want to block out the bad and only embrace the good. You want to consider both the good and the bad, but just don't let any of it get in the way of anything that you're trying to pursue in your life.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Pretty simple.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And the whole good, bad thing, where did you find this? This thing on ethics? Was that the.

[Josh Clark]

That was the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy. From their. From their entry on it, yeah, it's pretty. Pretty good. The whole thing was. Dude, you should have seen how in depth they go, though. But I thought this one was a good snippet.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, I'm sure. Yeah, they dive pretty deep. But I thought this was a pretty good little summation they're talking about. Like you said, money isn't just not good or AKA bad. Things like this they called indifference, as in I n d I f f e r e n t s, not indifference. And it's like not good or bad. It could be either one. It's really kind of all about not letting something like that get in the way of your pursuit.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And again, it went back to wealth. Right. And this person in the Encyclopedia of Philosophy points out that, like, money, definitely being wealthy usually is helpful or beneficial to the individual.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

But it can also not be beneficial where, say, you have a big heroin problem. Well, the more money you get, the more money you're going to spend on heroin. So in that case, being wealthy is detrimental to you, not beneficial.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And for something to be a good, it has to be good under all circumstances. And to a stoic, there's only four things that are good under all circumstances, which are those four cardinal virtues.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Everything else, like you said, is an indifferent. And it can either be preferred or. Or dispreferred. Like wealth typically would fall under being a preferred indifferent, whereas, say, disease, having chronic disease would be a disproper. Dis. Disproper. Wow. A dispreferred indifferent.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Man, that's tough, though.

[Josh Clark]

It is. But the. The point is, is whether it's fabulous wealth or diabetes, they should affect you about the same. Or you might want one, you might not want to have one, but if you have either one, you can live with it. And that brings up a huge, huge component of stoicism that's really been blown up and exploded in the 21st century, which is you should take adversity and turn it into an opportunity for growth. That is a huge aspect of stoicism that's really being practiced and espoused these days.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I'm down with That I don't think I like being able to take from all these philosophies and different religions to form your sort of pathway through life, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Like when I hear sometimes I started to read about Buddhism and the whole thing with Buddhism of like every day you start anew and you have a new chance. Like that really appeals to me too.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

What I don't like is when either religions or philosophies say like, no, this is the only way and everything else is bs.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You know? Yeah, that just. That's a harsh buzzkill.

[Josh Clark]

It really is. Not only is it bs, but I'm going to kill you for thinking otherwise.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So Seneca, who was one of the great thinkers of stoicism, he was an advisor to Nero and we'll talk about him as criticism of stoicism later on. But he had a very famous quote where he says, you are unfortunate in my judgment, for you have never been unfortunate. You have passed through life with no antagonist to face you. No one will know what you are capable of, not even yourself. And that kind of shapes the basis of that idea that no matter what life throws at you, you take it and you say, I'm going to become a better person from this. Like, oh, this happened. Well, that's great because that means that I can learn to be better at this. So my dog just got hit by a car. I'm going to practice fortitude and make it through this really hard time and become a stronger person on the other side.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He may as well have said, you, comma, trust fund kid, comma, sure.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Exactly. And I mean, that makes a people turn that on Seneca as well. But a lot of modern stoics come to his defense as like, no, that guy had a harder life than you would think.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Should we take another break?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

All right, let's do it. And we'll talk about Seneca and Cicero and all other kinds of weird names.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699. Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anibe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam. Blend plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Unknown]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through August 12th. Get big savings on your favorite products for the little ones in the family and earn four times points to use for discounts on groceries or on gas. Shop in store or online for items like Earth's Best Yogurt Smoothie, Gerber Pouches, Happy Baby Pouches, Huggies, Natural Baby Wipes, Pediasure Bottles, Earth's Best Crunchy Sticks and Gerber Yogurt Melts snacks and earn 4 times points. Offer ends August 12th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

With comprehensive reports on local schools you won't find anywhere else, homes.com is the only place to find the in depth info home shoppers want very in depth info. Curious about where a school ranks in the state? Look no further. Percentage of teachers in their first or second year? We've got it. Lowest student teacher ratio? No problem. The best cafeteria lunch in the district for your nine year old food blogger. Would it surprise you if we said yes? Homes.com we've done your homework.

[Josh Clark]

So Chuck, you were saying you were talking about religion. Stoicism apparently informed Christianity in a lot of ways. Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

And Buddhism in some ways.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yet atheists embrace it.

[Josh Clark]

It's kind of weird these days, but I mean the early Stoics were definitely, they definitely believed in a divine intervention. It was kind of the basis of the whole thing that this is God's will. So why try to control it? Who are you to try to control it? Just roll with the punches.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's a big when I was taking all those philosophy quizzes, they're all a little bit different, but you saw a through line through a lot of these questions and the free will one was in every single one of them.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Like how do you feel about free will? And there are different ways of asking it, but you know, free will.

[Josh Clark]

What do you think Exactly?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

If you want to find out which philosophy that you jibe with, you have to answer the free will question. Free will question?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Hey, that's easier to say than just preferred indifferent.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Nice work.

[Josh Clark]

So one of the big points Especially today for practicing stoicism is looking at adversity as a opportunity for growth.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right. That's just a good tool in life, I think.

[Josh Clark]

Another one, and this one, I really. This is where I big time diverge from Stoicism as like a part of a daily practice is something called negative visualization.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Like trying to imagine the worst case scenario constantly. Yeah, I'm not into that at all.

[Josh Clark]

No. So say you're at like your child's birthday party. Right. And you are not you specifically, this is you, just a general person, and you're having just the most intense moment of joy and appreciation for your child. According to stoics. You should follow that up with a thought about how at your child's next doctor's appointment, your child could be diagnosed with terminal leukemia.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that.

[Josh Clark]

That is what you should be doing basically all the time, negative visualization. And the idea is it's twofold. One, you're preventing yourself from becoming overjoyed at that moment.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Don't do that.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And then secondly, you're exploring how you will feel if your kid does get diagnosed with something horrible or something bad happens and that when it actually happens, you'll say, that's not so bad. I'm already used to it. Or you'll be able to confront it through your imagination and say, this is what I'm afraid of. That's not that bad. But I mean, that's a really extreme, horrific example. But. But it is ultimately, it's definitely in step with stoicism that you should be visualizing the worst case scenario all the time.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, and that's one of the reasons stoicism has such a downer reputation, such that Cicero wrote, a stoic rouse enthusiasm. He is much more likely to extinguish any enthusiasm the student may have to begin with.

[Josh Clark]

Burn.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it was a pretty good burn. And you know, I get that. Like, who would. If you, if that was one of the first things you learned, if you started to poke around with stoicism, 99% of people would probably be like, man, I don't want to. I don't like the sounds of that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I like the not having to control everything aspect, but the thinking about nothing but negative thoughts all the time.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You know, and I, I get the point of it. I just. It doesn't, it doesn't appeal to me.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

No. I mean, you shouldn't be Pollyanna either.

[Josh Clark]

Well, no, it's. It's in direct contradiction to the idea of the power of positive thinking.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Which is Stoics. Like, you fool, what are you doing? All you're doing is setting yourself up for nothing but letdowns when that doesn't actually come true.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, but I also agree with that to a certain degree. You know, like the whole, like, just you can conjure it up just by thinking positively. I think that's on the opposite side, equally bs.

[Josh Clark]

Sure, sure. I think so, too.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I'm kind of right down the middle, I guess, when it comes to that stuff.

[Josh Clark]

And I think most people are. But I think that's what's fascinating about this kind of thing is it's like, whoa, some people actually are to these degrees, these extremes. It's interesting to me.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah, and the other interesting thing is you're talking about Christianity. And then it's weird how stoicism, on one hand, like atheists, I can totally see how they'd be down with Stoicism, but also the whole notion that some believers in God and some Christians give it all up to God because only God can control anything. So all we're going to do is pray about it. And that's popular among Stoics as well.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So it's just interesting that it has such a wide range as far as from atheism to, like the, you know, serious, serious, give it up to God, Christianity.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Yeah, no, it. Definitely. Yeah. And it almost. It's kind of like it's that buffet thing again, where people can come along and take what they want from it and it becomes part of their own philosophy or their own religion or whatever. Let's talk about some of the ways that it's been used over the years. Stoicism. Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

So there have been a lot of people who have followed Stoic thought. Like, Adam Smith apparently was very much informed by stoicism when he wrote the wealth of nations, because one of the big aspects of it was individual liberty. One cool thing about the early Stoics was that everybody's equal. Right. Doesn't matter whether you're man, woman, gay, straight, black, white, whatever. Everyone is equal. And this was at a time when slavery was rampant. Right?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So that was a big. A big. That's a big aspect to. That's a big aspect of the wealth of nations is anybody can come along and become a capitalist. You just have to compete. Right. Another place that it popped up kind of famously was in cognitive behavioral therapy.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Which initially when I saw that, I was like, huh, that kind of surprised me. But then it all made sense.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Like, exposure to something bad can help you get over it is kind of like that. Conjuring up the worst possible. It's almost numbing yourself to the worst possible thing. If you think about that worst case scenario thing all the time, it's almost a way of preparing for that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And it's rooted specifically. One of the founders of cbt, Albert Ellis, was an adherent of stoicism as a younger man. And what's known as the cognitive model of emotion, which is the basis of cognitive behavioral therapy, is based on Epictetus's maxim that people are disturbed not by things, but by their view of things. And that's part of that whole stoic philosophy, which is, nothing is good or bad. There's only good in the four virtues. Everything else is how you view it, whether it's losing your job or winning the lottery. Those aren't. Those things aren't inherently good or bad. It's you, the person experiencing that, who bestows good or bad on them.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And why label things?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Sure, I'm down with that a little bit.

[Josh Clark]

Did you hear about Admiral Stockdale?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I remember that name for sure. When he came out with his book, Courage Under Fire, Colon Testing Epictetus Doctrines in a Laboratory of human behavior in 1993, he was a famous prisoner of war in Vietnam for seven years. Endured some of the worst of the worst you can imagine in war. And what got him through was certainly not Christianity, because he thought that's nothing but false hope.

[Josh Clark]

Well, not only that, he shared the POW camp with people who clung to that and did not make it.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, so he saw it right up front.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So what got him through was his stoic beliefs.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he was a huge, big time adherent of Epictetus. He'd studied him in college. Apparently he'd read everything that Epictetus had written or said that had been written down and attributed to Epictetus twice from two different translators. So this guy knew his Epictetus, and he said, well, I'm a prisoner of war in Vietnam. I've got some broken bones, I'm starving. I'm being mistreated. I'll be here for seven years. What a perfect opportunity to put Epictetus teachings to the test in a real life laboratory experiment. And he said Epictetus passed with flying colors. Was Stockdale's final report on it?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He said, if Epictetus lecture room was a hospital, my prison was a laboratory. A laboratory of human behavior. I chose to test his postulates against the demanding real life challenges of my laboratory. So, man, talk about a strong will like to be faced with that and be like, well, hey, this is a great chance to work on my philosophy of life.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. What else am I going to do? But that follows in and of itself on the whole, too, of turning adversity into a room for growth as well.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, man. Stronger than me. Let's just say that.

[Josh Clark]

So you want to talk about some criticisms of Stoicism?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, Cicero certainly thought it was a big downer.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He said. Well, you already said what he said. Right?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

It basically extinguishes enthusiasm in students. Not a good thing. Right. And then over the years, the fact that some of the great Stoic thinkers of all time have been super wealthy and powerful. Seneca, Marcus Aurelius was the emperor of Rome. He basically ran the free world. Well, I don't know if the free world's right, the Western world, for almost 20 years.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And when you sit there and yeah, again, if you say yes, you can turn anything into any adversity, into an opportunity. If you're super wealthy, you don't have to worry about where your food's going to come from. Like, yes, of course you can be a Stoic. And then Epictetus came along and, like we said, kind of erased all that to an extent for sure. But it is still kind of criticized as, like, a wealthy person's philosophy. And it kind of smacks of that a little bit today, too, Chuck, with its huge resurgence in Silicon Valley.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, is that happening?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah. Most. Most of the Stoic revival is taking place there. That's where its cradle is right now.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, well, our own article has a couple of good points to talk about it not being as appealing because it lacks the mystique of Eastern practice. And then they also said this. It's also regarded as a philosophy of merely breaking even while remaining determinedly impassive.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. I don't know if that's entirely fair, but it kind of catches it a little bit.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah. Because the very next sentence is this attitude ignores the promise proffered by Stoicism of lasting transcendence. And that one article that you sent talked about the power of indifference.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Which I thought was interesting. It's not about just, like, not caring about anything. It's about caring about only the right things that you have the power to change.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And also, though I also see that even Keel aspect being indifferent. The power of it. I mean, think about how much time, whenever you are, like, super happy about something going right or super upset about something going wrong, you're ultimately, you're Being distracted from keeping on, keeping on.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And then you go back to. Eventually get back to that middle again, which is the baseline anyway. And so I guess what stoics are doing is staying on that, that baseline and not being distracted so they can get further along faster or at a more steady pace.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely something that's really frustrating in life, which is when you look back and say, man, I've spent two days stressed and worried about something that I have no control over and what a waste of time that was when I could have done X, Y and Z.

[Josh Clark]

One of the big questions I have, it's not necessarily criticism. I guess it depends on what the answer would be. But my big question for stoicism, since it's so. It places so much emphasis on the individual and self exploration and introspection. How would a stoic suggest enacting massive social change where something, some ill is happening to some large group of people, but nothing's going to change unless you go out of your own personal sphere and work to make others change?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

How do you do that? Do you just say, well, whatever, it's God's will that these people suffer and be put down by the majority forever? Or is there some way that that can be addressed through the stoic philosophy? I'm very curious. So anybody who knows that, write in, please.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Maybe that's why it appeals to Silicon Valley.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Well, that's the other thing too. Right. So it also very much smacks when you hear of it from wealthy people espousing it to anybody. It smacks of that whole aspect of Christianity where, hey, medieval peasant, you know how your life is terrible and you're going to live to 35 and all you do is work all the time and you give most of the spoils of your effort to your king? Well, there's such thing as Christianity and your treasure is in the afterlife, so don't worry about this life. It smacks of the same thing where you can keep a population placated and not searching for larger social change by saying, hey, just focus on these four things. And everything else is just. It just happens and you don't need to get worked up about it at all. It seems like a bit of a pacifier too.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Depending on how you look at it, it's. It's fascinating. Are we done with stoicism?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I'm finished with it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I think that was a good overview.

[Josh Clark]

I think so too.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

It's a good thought starter.

[Josh Clark]

If you want to know more about Stoicism, Bud, there's a lot more out there than this. Just dive in and see what it means to you. And again, it's a buffet. Take what you like, leave what you don't want. Leave the curdled pudding behind. Take the perfectly garlic green beans.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yum.

[Josh Clark]

What else? Did I already say that one part. Oh. Since I said green beans, it's time for listener mail.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Uh, I'm gonna call this Beagle brigade. Police dogs.

[Josh Clark]

People love that one.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Man, who doesn't love beetles? Beagles on brigade on parade?

[Josh Clark]

No one. Even people who get busted with whole pigs still are like, that beagle's adorable.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

So this dude, Eric Stover is a sandwicher, meaning he follows our advice, which is to listen to the newest episode as well as whatever from our back catalog he chooses to. Yeah, he's doing it right. Hey, guys. I work in the sports and entertainment business in New York, and after 9 11, the use of bomb sniffing dogs, mostly German shepherds, became standard operating procedure for all events. A few hours prior to a concert one night, the K9 units were sweeping all the backstage areas and one of the bomb dogs hit on an employee locker. As you can imagine, it caused an immediate and serious response. A bomb squad was dispatched and that portion of the arena was evacuated. Plans were even made to cancel the show. He doesn't say what show, which I was very curious about.

[Josh Clark]

I'm going to say Three Doors Down.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Okay. After some very tense moments, the police officers open the locker. Those guys are super brave. Thankfully, they didn't find a bomb, but did find drugs. An employee must have thought. Must have brought in an extra bump for the show.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man. It was definitely three doors down.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

You might be asking yourself, no, this wasn't the band's green room. This was an employee.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I know, I know. Three Doors Down. Three Doors Down's fans are among the most drug addled of all music fans. Are they sure?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I thought that was the Juggalos.

[Josh Clark]

No, they put the Juggalos a shame. Juggalos take time off once in a while. You know what I mean?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's true. You might be asking yourself, how does a bomb dog find drugs? As it turns out, the dog had failed out of drug school and was retrained as a bomb dog. Poor guy.

[Josh Clark]

That's hilarious.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Isn't it?

[Josh Clark]

Poor guy? Which one? The dog or the guy who just happened to run across the failed drug dog? I guess everyone still remembered something.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

There are no winners here.

[Josh Clark]

Why not?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I guess he didn't completely forget his drug training, though. And he set off a chain of events that scared the crap out of us. The story ends with the employee getting arrested, the show went on, and the fans none the wiser. My guess is the dog was reassigned.

[Josh Clark]

To crowd control, just barking at people. Get back in line.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Thanks for everything you guys do. Please let me know if you ever need anything in New York City. Is that a hint? We don't do drugs, Eric.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, we're terrified of dogs.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That is Eric Stover in New York and I guess he's still in the sports and entertainment business.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he's like, you need some sports? Come see me.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

I could use some sports.

[Josh Clark]

Thanks Eric. That's a pretty great story, right?

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

If you want to get in touch with us like any Eric did, you can send us an email to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.

[Charles W. Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

[Unknown]

For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Unknown]

Every day has a to do list, but adding Enjoy Belvita to yours can help you knock out the rest of it. Belvita Breakfast Biscuits are a tasty and convenient breakfast option when paired with low fat yogurt and fruit that provide steady energy all morning while Belvita Energy Snack Bites give you the perfect mid morning refuel. Best part? They both taste great, so make the most out of your morning with a bite of Belvita. Pick up a pack of Belvita at your local store today.

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through August 12th. Get big savings on your favorite products for the little ones in the family and earn four times points to use for discounts on groceries or on gas. Shop in store or online for items like Earth's Best Yogurt Smoothie, Gerber Pouches, Happy Baby Pouches, Huggies, Natural Baby Wipes, pediasure Bottles, Earth's Best Crunchy Sticks and Gerber Yogurt Melts snacks and earn four times points. Offer ends August 12th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

Every business has an ambition. PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of million PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open, grow today at PayPalOpen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.

[Josh Clark]

This is an iHeart podcast.