Stuff You Should Know: "Selects: What Were the BONE WARS?"

Podcast: Stuff You Should Know
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Date: August 30, 2025 (original episode August 2019)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the wild, petty, and bizarre rivalry between two of America’s most influential paleontologists: Othniel Charles Marsh and Edward Drinker Cope, a feud known as the "Bone Wars." Josh and Chuck recount how this personal battle in the late 19th century not only sped up the discovery of dozens of dinosaur species and inflamed the public’s dinosaur obsession, but also laid down a legacy of scientific messiness, broken finances, and backstabbing that persist in the annals of paleontology.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: Dinosaurs in American Culture

• Discussion on their own relative indifference to dinosaurs as children and the generational shifts in dinosaur obsession.
  • [03:00] Josh: “Kids these days are [really] obsessed with dinosaurs. [...] you can actually trace [that interest] back to almost a specific winter in the 19th century: the winter of 1877.”
• The origins of American fascination with dinosaurs directly tied to the Bone Wars.

The Roots of Paleontology in America

• Early finds and the transition from bones as mythic objects to legitimate science.
• The Lewis and Clark Expedition registered as North America’s first documented paleontological expedition.
  • [06:55] Chuck: "The first documented paleontological expedition in North America was carried out by none other than Lewis and Clark."
• Joseph Leidy, America’s first vertebrate paleontologist and mentor to Cope.

Introducing Marsh and Cope

• Marsh: Born 1831, New York; modest beginnings but supported by wealthy uncle George Peabody. Educated at Yale and Germany.
  • [11:02] Chuck: “He had a very rich uncle named George Peabody who would go on to really kind of fund his education in early parts of his career later on.”
• Cope: Born 1840, Philadelphia; wealthy, prominent Quaker family, left school at 16, pursued science via the gentleman-naturalist tradition.
  • [13:47] Chuck: “He’s like, no, I’m going to go learn from experience. And he did.”

The Budding Friendship and Its Downfall

• Marsh and Cope met in Germany in 1863, bonded over paleontology, and began as friends and collaborators.
• The first falling out:
  1. Marsh visits Cope’s New Jersey dig, then bribes workers to send future finds directly to him.
     • [23:24] Josh: “Then he sneaks back later on [...] and says, ‘hey, man, if you find any more good specimens, send them to this address.’”
  2. Cope misplaces the head on Elasmosaurus; Marsh (with Leidy) points it out, humiliating Cope.
     • [27:11] Josh: “He says, my friend, it appears you have fallen into the classic paleontology trap and mounted the head on the butt.”

Divergent Career Paths and Rival Approaches

• Marsh gains a Yale professorship, well-funded, prestigious, and methodical.
• Cope relies on family wealth and relentless work; publishes at a frenetic pace.
  • [34:05] Josh: “He published throughout his career about 1400 academic papers. In the 1870s, he was doing about 25 papers a year [...].”
• Sharp differences:
  • Cope—a romantic, fast and flowery writer, deeply religious, interested in integrating faith and science.
  • Marsh—dry, cautious, secular, relentless self-promoter.

The Opening of the American West

• Transcontinental Railroad enables both men to access fossil-rich Western territories.
• Marsh and Cope use hired diggers, cutthroat bidding, and sabotage to outcompete each other.
  • [43:18] Chuck: "Marsh ordered that if his men couldn’t get bones out of like a find [...] smash them, do not leave them, because I don’t want Cope to possibly be able to get them himself.”
• The "Bone Wars" become notorious not only for the sheer number of fossils uncovered but also for ethical lapses, sabotage, and sensational stories.

Lasting Impact: Scientific and Cultural Fallout

• The Bone Wars produced 142 species between them, including Triceratops, Stegosaurus, Apatosaurus/Brontosaurus, and more.
  • [46:51] Chuck: “Out of that one winter, we got Triceratops, we got Apatosaurus, Stegosaurus [...] all from that one winter of 1877.”
• However, the rivalry also led to “sloppy taxonomy,” requiring decades to untangle duplicate species names and errors.
• The arms race in publishing and naming led to rushes in research, partially discrediting the scientific rigor of their discoveries.
• Debate: Did this rivalry spur discovery or ultimately harm paleontology with its toxicity?

The Bitter End

• By the 1880s, both men face financial ruin; Marsh uses government power (USGS, National Academy) to freeze Cope out of funding.
• Marsh's maneuvering backfires, costing him his own collection due to laws he helped write.
  • [52:00] Chuck: “Marsh ended up losing his job and his position [...] and in a beautiful ironic twist, that law that he himself had inserted [...] meant that he actually lost his collection.”
• Cope sells chunks of his collection to survive, dies at 56 (1897); Marsh follows two years later at 68.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dinosaur Obsession:
  • [03:23] Chuck: “It teaches you so much stuff, you know, about the deep past, about evolution, about, you know, walking lizard, bird creatures [...]”
• On the First Big Betrayal:
  • [23:43] Chuck: “So Marsh has just outed himself as a very wormy type of fellow. Not to be trusted.”
• On Cope’s Work Ethic:
  • [14:14] Josh: “If there’s one thing we’re going to learn about Copia over the next 30 minutes or so is he worked hard.”
• On the Level of Pettiness:
  • [43:32] Josh: “Not only that, but the bones that they would like smaller finds that they would dig up that they didn’t think were as important, they would smash so the other person wouldn’t have anything to do with them.”
• On Public Fallout:
  • [53:39] Chuck: “It still wanders the halls at night. Amazing ghostly brain. That’s the surprise ending to this one.”
• On Legacy:
  • [47:00] Josh: “As a paleontologist, you could literally just say, you know, the Triceratops, I discovered it. And that could be it. That could be your career right there.”

Important Timestamps

• [01:01] Introduction to the episode and theme
• [03:10] Roots of American dinosaur obsession traced to Bone Wars
• [06:55] Earliest American paleontology: Lewis and Clark
• [10:10] Arrival of Marsh and Cope, and their backgrounds
• [15:05] Early friendship and German meeting
• [16:39] Beginning of rivalry: Haddonfield betrayal
• [27:11] The Elasmosaurus incident: head on wrong end
• [32:02] Westward expansion and fossil rush
• [34:05] Cope’s prolific publishing; founding of The American Naturalist
• [39:15] The outlandish tactics of the Bone Wars (sabotage, smashing fossils)
• [46:51] 1877 Winter: Boom of new dinosaur discoveries
• [49:04] Marsh freezes Cope out of funding; government interference
• [52:00] Public mudslinging, Congressional fallout, and collections seized
• [53:39] Deaths and posthumous brain-measuring challenge

The Original Tone

Josh and Chuck maintain their trademark blend of nerdy banter, gentle mockery, and genuine enthusiasm for weird history. Their comedic asides (e.g., “Tesla vs Ferris Bueller rivalry") and self-deprecating commentary (“No interest in Jurassic Park or any dinosaurs, but we think porno titles are hilarious”) keep the episode light even as the content details a bitterly personal and consequential scientific feud.

Summary

The Bone Wars between Marsh and Cope is one of science’s most notorious rivalries—a cautionary, yet productive, arms race that shaped modern paleontology, popularized dinosaurs, but left a messy legacy. Their competition gave the world names like Stegosaurus and Triceratops, though it also spurred decades of scholarly clean-up and personal ruin. The hosts conclude that in the end, both men paid dearly for their ambition, but the field, and our cultural imagination, were fundamentally transformed.