← Stuff You Should Know
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- [00:00]
iHeartRadio Announcer
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:04]
Josh Clark
Hello, Malcolm Glaubel here. We're here in New York City with T Mobile for business recording another episode of Revisionist history about how 5G network slicing strengthens trust and connections across worldwide industries.
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- [01:46]
Josh Clark
Hey everybody, it's Josh And I have one word to describe this week's select from 2021 on why there are so many myths and about a great flood found in cultures around the world. That word is fascinating, but I'll add a few more words. I guess this is one of those good old fashioned stuff you should know episodes where we find out that a thing that everyone just kind of takes for granted actually has a lot more to it than it seems. And I love those episodes. And I love this episode, which is why I picked it. I hope you love it too.
- [02:24]
iHeartRadio Announcer
Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
- [02:34]
Josh Clark
Ahoy. And welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and we're the captains of this here ship called Stuff youf Should Know. And that's all there is to it. Although I do think we need to allow for the fact that Jerry is rear admirable. And by that, of course, I mean Rear Admiral. And by that, of course, I mean it's gonna be a long episode.
- [03:00]
Chuck Bryant
Has there ever been a cutesy TV show called the Admirable Admiral?
- [03:05]
Josh Clark
No. That sounds great. I think there was one. The Simpsons did one called Admiral Baby.
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Chuck Bryant
Oh, all right. Well, that counts.
- [03:13]
Josh Clark
Yeah. I don't know if the baby was particularly admirable, though. Could have been like a terrible person.
- [03:19]
Chuck Bryant
So I have a cold, so I just want to apologize up front. Just a head cold, but I'm a little stuffy, so I'm sorry if it's coming across as untoward.
- [03:29]
Josh Clark
I'm very proud of you for pushing through Chuck, because lesser podcasters would not. They might just be like, I can't. I have a cold. People don't want to hear that. And you say, to heck with that. I'm going forward with it.
- [03:41]
Chuck Bryant
Remember back in the day, you had like a three month cold that one year?
- [03:45]
Josh Clark
Every year.
- [03:46]
Chuck Bryant
Every year for a little while.
- [03:47]
Josh Clark
I used to get so sick. Yeah, no, it was terrible. But we've gotten much better, haven't we?
- [03:52]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, I think. I don't know, maybe quitting smoking had something to do with that.
- [03:55]
Josh Clark
Maybe just a touch.
- [03:57]
Chuck Bryant
You don't get colds like that anymore.
- [03:58]
Josh Clark
No. Good for you. I really don't. So yet another reason to quit smoking. Everybody who's out there on the fence.
- [04:04]
TurboTax Advertiser
That's right.
- [04:06]
Josh Clark
So we're talking today. The reason I said that we're captains is because I was making a play on a story that it seems like every single person Chuck knows about, at the very least, I can say with almost 100% confidence that everyone that you and I have ever met, seen in passing, talked to, or been in the same, like, country with probably has heard of the story of Noah and the flood where Noah was told to go ahead and build a boat because the earth was going to flood and everybody was gonna be killed. And by the way, grab some animals, put them on board so that you and your wife and then the animals can all repopulate your respective species once the flood subsides. Right? It's a classic. Everybody loves it. We read it out loud just about every Saturday at dinner time. And it's just a great story. Right? Everybody knows the story. But it turns out, Chuck, that there's this idea that actually happened, and it's long been an idea that what the Noah story is talking about happened in actuality that There was a point in time where the entire world flooded. And there's been a lot of scholarly research into this, into how that's even possible.
- [05:24]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And, you know, I guess if we're talking about this particular, because, you know, we found after digging around and getting Ed to help us with this research, that there are flood myths in not every culture, but a lot of cultures over the years. And we'll get into that, you know, in lots of detail. But as far as actual Noah's actual flood from the Old Testament, there was a gentleman in 1872 named George Smith, who was a hobbyist of all things Assyrian and an amateur sort of historical sleuth, but a well educated one nonetheless, because he could do things like read cuneiform tablets. And he was doing that one day on. I don't know if it was an actual lunch break or if that's just apocryphal, but supposedly on a lunch break, went to a museum, was reading cuneiform, and came across a story, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and read this quote. Build a boat, abandon wealth and seek survival. Spurn poverty, save life. Take on board all living things. Seed animals. The boat you will build. Her dimensions shall be equal, her length and breadth shall be the same. It doesn't say anything about cubits, but it's inferred, right? Cover her with a roof like the ocean below, and he will send you a rain of plenty. And George Smith said, hey, this is strikingly familiar as the Christian, Jewish, Old Testament Noah flood story. But this is several hundred years previous.
- [06:55]
Josh Clark
Yeah. And instead of God telling Noah or an angel telling Noah, it's the God Enlil who's telling a guy named Utanapishtim to build this boat. Noah's nowhere to be heard, and for what reason? What do you mean?
- [07:13]
Chuck Bryant
Well, I mean, wasn't this one of the ones where, like, Earth is being punished, basically?
- [07:17]
Josh Clark
Oh, yeah. So the reason that Enlil gave to Uttanapishtim was because the humans were too noisy and the gods were sick of humans, so they were gonna flood the Earth and kill off all humans. Whereas in the Bible it was because humans had become too wicked to live.
- [07:35]
Chuck Bryant
I think noisy and wicked are the same thing back then.
- [07:37]
Josh Clark
I guess so. And it makes you wonder, like, did somebody misread the word? And they're like, no, okay. And just barreled on. They're like, my lunch break is almost over. So George Smith just was like, noisy. They said noisy.
- [07:50]
Chuck Bryant
There was also the idea of saving animals, and there was also the idea that afterward birds were sent out to find dry land, just as in Noah's story.
- [07:58]
Josh Clark
Right. And so you just kind of say, whoops. Because the Epic of Gilgamesh predates the Old Testament by at least several hundred years, depending on what part you're talking about. And so you might say, okay, so the Noah story is adapted from this, but that doesn't mean that it undermines the veracity. They don't undermine the veracity of one another. In fact, if you stop and think about it, the fact that one of the first things that was ever written down after the invention of writing, cuneiform, was the first written system humans ever devised. Yeah. And that the first literary work ever created, the Epic of Gilgamesh, contained this flood story. It kind of suggests that something actually may have happened. Like it was a really important story that has stuck around for thousands and thousands of years. The Epic of gilgamesh was written 3400 years ago. It suggests that there might be some, some kernel of truth to it.
- [09:08]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And over the years, a lot of people have tried to prove, whether scientifically or otherwise, that the Noah's flood really did take place. Bible literalists, is that what we call them?
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Josh Clark
I think so.
- [09:23]
TurboTax Advertiser
Okay.
- [09:23]
Chuck Bryant
Bible literalists, Bible historians. Because that would go a long way in Christianity if you could say, hey, the Bible is an actual historical document. This stuff is really true. And in the 18th and 19th century, there was something called diluvialism. Diluvial meaning like relating to a great flood. But that was a big shaper of actual geology, was basically saying, hey, this physical, literally the physical world that we're living in came about after this flood. What kind of reset things and then the real geological record came along once science got serious and they proved that was not the case. And that kind of went the way of the dodo around the mid-1800s.
- [10:07]
Josh Clark
And yeah, they kind of did it backwards. They said the Noah Flood shaped the world as we see it, Go find proof. And when they found proof, they were like, it's not really adding up.
- [10:17]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah.
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Josh Clark
So there's no evidence that there was a global flood that inundated the world. And in fact, the geological record that these geologists, the early ones and, you know, up to modern day ones, have been putting together supports the exact opposite of that. That earth wasn't created in a deluge. It was created over incredibly long distances of time, very, very slowly, layer by layer. Right?
- [10:43]
Chuck Bryant
That's right.
- [10:44]
Josh Clark
But people still say, okay, well, why, number one, why have we been telling this flood story for so long? And then also, why is it, like you said, the idea of flood myth seems almost universal? Doesn't that, like, still strongly suggest that there was, even if the Bible doesn't quite have it? Right. And by the way, Noah's story also shows up in the Quran too. So it's in the Jewish b. Old Testament and the Quran. And then there's the Epic of Gilgamesh story. Like, why is this important story still around? Doesn't it still support the idea that something happened? Why would there be universal flood myths from cultures that had never even heard of Christianity before? And there have been, like, some attempts to explain that that I think are much more satisfying than the idea that we're just missing all of the evidence for a great worldwide deluge that happened back in antiquity.
- [11:34]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And there were, you know, it's more than just those. There were Chinese flood myths. There were flood myths in southern Canada, in the British Isles. So there was one study that picked out 50 cultures and they all had their own flood myth and that it was related to some kind of punishment. So they started looking, like you said, of, like, why is this happening? And there's a bunch of reasons, and they all kind of make sense to me, if I'm being honest. One of them is that there was a flood in these cultures, but it wasn't a global flood. But if you're, you know, if all you know is a certain area and you never get to leave that area and it wipes out everything, you know, then the story that you pass along orally through the years would sound like one that wiped out everything.
- [12:25]
Josh Clark
Yeah. And like, the whole idea is that this flood actually did happen way far back to one group, and then that group eventually kind of spread out and carried that flood myth with them. And so to those of us today, historians, anthropologists, looking at, like, all of these groups that are spread out all over the world, all sharing basically the same story, it would make it seem like a flood had impacted all of these groups that were that far spread out. So it must have been a really big flood. But this explanation says no. The flood was actually really localized. It was the group that it happened to that eventually spread out. That's one explanation. It makes a lot of sense. And one of the groups that are usually kind of pinpointed as this flood happening to are the proto Indo Europeans who are known to have been around, I think, the Caucasus Mountains to start, and then just spread out as far as the British Isles, basically all over Europe, northwest, east, south, and that all of our languages English, Germanic, just a whole slew of languages developed out of this group.
- [13:38]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And some more support for this is the fact that there aren't flood myths in sub Saharan African cultures. And these were groups that when they left Africa, they didn't come back. So they would not have taken back with them a flood myth from proto Indo Europeans. So it all kind of makes sense.
- [13:58]
Josh Clark
Yeah, exactly. There's another kind of related one too that says that there were floods, just not a flood, that flooding is actually really common. So it happened to a lot of different groups. So it would make sense that all these different cultures would have flood myths.
- [14:17]
Chuck Bryant
Sure. And again, if you live in your riverside village and you don't get to travel very far from there and everything you know of gets destroyed, again, it could be, you know, lend support to the idea that it gets translated as a worldwide flood. And if everyone's having these localized floods, which happened, you know, there's always been floods then, not necessarily of the 40 days and 40 nights variety, but when things are passed around orally and then they get rewritten, things get kind of mixed up.
- [14:47]
Josh Clark
Yeah. And it's our bad. Those of us alive today who are mistaking or laying our interpretation of the word world onto like these cultures use of the word world, they're saying their world, which is much smaller than it is to those of us today. When we think the world, we think the whole globe, you know.
- [15:07]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. And speaking of laying your things on other cultures, the third one is Christian missionaries. And there's evidence of this happening. They would go and tell the story of Noah's great flood, especially, you know, when colonization was happening too. And between missionaries and colonization, all these other cultures picked up on that original biblical flood tale, or I don't know if we should call it a flood myth or flood tale at this point. What should we call it?
- [15:37]
Josh Clark
I think most people call it flood myths or diluvian myths.
- [15:40]
Chuck Bryant
Okay, diluvian myth. That sounds a little more academic. So. Yeah. So Christian missionaries did this. And I think this is also evidence in the fact that the South Pacific didn't really have one until 1814 when they came into contact with Christian missionaries. And then all of a sudden they had the Maori flood myth.
- [16:02]
Josh Clark
Yeah. So they actually had a flood myth before, but apparently it was more tsunami based. And then after contact with Christianity, it became much more of like a deluge. And it just bore some striking resemblances to the Noah flood myth of Christianity. And apparently that happened all over the South Pacific as well, where these cultures will have their own kind of flood myth, but it's always based on tsunamis. But then the Christians come and go and all of a sudden it's a deluge where the water rose after like, you know, 40 days and 40 nights of rain and stuff. So that creates a lot of headaches for anthropologists. But it also at the same time explains why a universal flood myth or a flood myth would seem universal to those of us around today and why they seem to bear such a striking resemblance to one another, you know?
- [16:48]
Chuck Bryant
Indeed. I think we should take a break and I'm gonna go blow my nose.
- [16:53]
Josh Clark
Okay.
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Chuck Bryant
And then we'll come back and talk about geomythology right after this.
- [17:14]
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- [17:43]
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- [18:55]
Josh Clark
So Chuck, that was nice of you to blow your nose at the break rather than during recording. Even though I still had to hear was thick.
- [19:04]
Chuck Bryant
You know what's funny? I was listening to I don't know why I just thought of this, but I was listening to Paul F. Tompkins stay of Homekins podcast. He does with his wife Janie the other day and he was talking about sneezing on stage, and that had happened to him once in his career. And Paul is someone who spent lots and lots and lots of time on stages. And I wonder if there's something to that of the body withholding things like sneezes. Cause I've never seen anyone sneeze on stage. I've never sneezed on stage.
- [19:33]
Josh Clark
Yeah.
- [19:34]
Chuck Bryant
Isn't that weird?
- [19:35]
Josh Clark
Yeah, I'm sure it's related to adrenaline and fight or flight.
- [19:39]
Chuck Bryant
That's what I was thinking. I mean, there's gotta be something to that.
- [19:41]
Josh Clark
Yeah. Like your body's like, I don't have time to waste all that energy on sneezing. We gotta get outta here. We gotta put on a great show.
- [19:48]
Chuck Bryant
It would be really weird to think about it if, like, I don't know, Barry Manilow in Vegas was talking about setting up Mandy before he sings it and just lets out a big sneeze.
- [19:57]
TurboTax Advertiser
Yeah.
- [19:58]
Josh Clark
Well, thank you for setting me up to reminisce yet again about the time that Yumi and I saw Barry Manilow front row center in Vegas.
- [20:05]
Chuck Bryant
You would have been sneezed on with that big snoz.
- [20:07]
Josh Clark
Yes, we actually would have been covered in his sneeze.
- [20:11]
Chuck Bryant
All right, so we promised. Talk of Geomythology. Here's the idea. Since science really got its act together, there have been a couple of different ways to look at things like flood myths as either this is a story about our cultural values, there's a lot of religious metaphor involved, or this was an actual historical event, and geomythology came along to kind of say, hey, man, it can kind of be both. Like, there could have been a real flood. And it also took on metaphor and took on cultural values and was used as a. As a story of. I can't think of the word I'm trying to think of to teach you a lesson. What's that called?
- [20:54]
Josh Clark
Fable.
- [20:55]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, like a fable.
- [20:57]
Josh Clark
So this kind of. This field has emerged since, I believe, the 60s. And actually, it was. I was reading about. This field of geomythology is, like, still really trying to establish itself in the field of geology. And most. Most geomythologists are trained geologists. That's where you start out.
- [21:17]
Chuck Bryant
Who play D and D, probably.
- [21:19]
Josh Clark
But they also are, like, you know, they have to really defend what they're doing against their fellow geologists because they're basically saying all of these myths, all of these legends, all of these folk traditions, they actually contain eyewitness accounts of natural disasters, of weird events in Earth of early folk Finds of fossils. And yeah, they've cloaked them in the language of mythology and the terminology of mythology and monsters and weirdness and all this stuff that makes it just seem completely legendary to us today. But that's how these pre scientific and often pre literate cultures pass along really valuable information. And like we've been kind of foolish to just discount them as nothing but legend. As if there's no fact whatsoever in there, baby.
- [22:14]
Chuck Bryant
Out with the bathwater.
- [22:15]
Josh Clark
Exactly. And so that's what geomythology is doing. They're saying, wait a minute, wait a minute. If you just look at this the right way, we are covered up in historical accounts just waiting for us to unravel if we learn how to read these correctly and then also correlate with actual known geological events that we've discovered through science.
- [22:38]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, like hey, you see that story that seems completely crazy about a demon God who lives in a mountain and gets angry and spouts fire from its top? Like that's a volcano, bros. And just because it sounds crazy doesn't mean we shouldn't look at the fact that an actual volcano eruption might have happened then. And let's kind of marry these two things and let's just all get along.
- [23:04]
Josh Clark
Right? And so like that legend about the volcano with the angry God that sometimes spews like scary stuff forth and if you ever hear the mountain starting to make rumbles, it means the God is waking up and you should run. Like that is a way for a culture that is aware that this mountain is actually a volcano. And that volcano can sit dormant for generations at a stretch. So there will be people born in the future who aren't aware that that's a volcano. And this is the way that the culture passes down over deep time. This really important information. If the volcano ever makes a sound, run. Cause you don't want the fiery breath of that God that's trapped inside it. Makes sense. Yeah.
- [23:45]
Chuck Bryant
I love this stuff. Like before science came along, all humans did from the moment they could sort of form thoughts was try and explain what was going on around them. From rain and thunder to volcanoes and floods. And I don't know, I think it's super interesting. It's almost like these proto early warning systems.
- [24:06]
Josh Clark
Right. Like nuclear weapons.
- [24:07]
Chuck Bryant
They just didn't really know how to explain the science of it exactly.
- [24:10]
Josh Clark
Like nuclear semiotics. Remember we did an episode on that on how to tell people 10,000 years in the future about steering clear of nuclear waste. Right. It's the same exact principle. It's just chuck Somewhere along the way, we later generations became arrogant and just completely discounted any of those pre scientific traditions because they didn't appear scientific. But it is exactly like what you're saying it was the way that they made sense of actual stuff. And so there's plenty of stuff to learn from those accounts and those tales and those myths and legends. We just have to basically kind of eat a little bit of crow and go back and be like, well, we've been ignoring this to our own detriment. Yeah.
- [24:52]
Chuck Bryant
And it's like you said earlier, it's a tough road to hoe though, for scientists these days if they take this on, because you have mixed results. When you go back and you look at these tales, some of them may just be folktales and legends and some may have kernels of truth, some may have a little more truth. So there's a lot to sort of parse through as a geologist these days. If you're, if you're, if you're working as or with the geomythologist.
- [25:19]
Josh Clark
Right. And so when, when you are laying this out and trying to figure out, okay, what, what is this myth describing? You know, again, you're a trained geologist, if you're a geomythologist, but you're also working with people from other scientific fields as far as trying to un. The fact, the kernel of truth behind these flood myths, you would be working with paleohydrology or paleobathymetry, which is the study of ancient sea levels, like where they were at in the past. And so you're going to take the findings from these fields and then say, okay, let me see if I can correlate it with a myth. Or you find a myth and you say, okay, let me see if I can correlate it with paleobathymetry or paleo hydrology findings. And they've actually turned up some really interesting stuff so far.
- [26:15]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. In 2016, there was a study that tied together one of the Chinese flood myths from about 4,000 years ago, basically that there was a great flood, wiped out China. It lasted for a couple of decades, and then this great man came along who had become Emperor Emperor Yu and tamed the water. So geologists went back and they said, all right, there's an ancient landslide around that same time that dammed up a river and a lake filled up behind it in about six months or so. And then that flooded, that river got flooded, broke through the dam and there was this huge flood and they found sediment that sort of tracks along these lines. Then they found that Emperor Yu, actually, it turns out he may not have been, you know, magically tamed the water. He just had a knack for early engineering and that he dredged the waters and it cleared up the river's flow, things returned to normal, and he became Emperor. But back then, it gets, you know, told as a tale of this, you know, great, soon to be emperor that tames the waters when he was just good at what he was doing.
- [27:22]
Josh Clark
Right. But they, I mean, they found, like, evidence, geological evidence, that backs all of this up, that this whole series of events, the earthquake that triggered the landslide, the landslide, the dam, the lake filling up in six months, the lake breaking and flooding, that all this happened within a single year. That is definitely the kind of thing that your culture is going to make note of, of and passed down over the years that this kind of thing can happen. And then, not only that, this great person came along and freed us from the burden of these floodwaters that apparently stuck around for 20 years.
- [27:51]
Chuck Bryant
That's right.
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Josh Clark
It's pretty cool. There's another one that is just beyond thrilling, if you ask me, that a lot of people say this is probably. This is possibly. And I think that's a big reason a lot of mainstream geologists have problems with geomythology, is we can't really see a course to getting to the point where we're saying this is the one. This flood that we have evidence of is what gave rise to the Epic of Gilgamesh and Noah's story. But you can say there's a really good chance that this is the one, this fits the bill. And this one does kind of stick out like that.
- [28:30]
Chuck Bryant
That's right. This one. In the 90s, it became fairly popular that basically said there was a oceanographer named William Ryan and another guy named Walter Pittman. They were, I think, in the early 2000s. And they said that rising sea levels at one point caused the Mediterranean to burst through the Bosphorus Strait about 7,000 years ago. And this was like a legit, serious flood that I'm sure seemed like a flood, like a global type of thing. It created a waterfall volume 200 times that of Niagara Falls. And I think enough water in one day that could have flooded Manhattan by 3,000ft.
- [29:10]
Josh Clark
Yeah, that's like.
- [29:11]
Chuck Bryant
That's a flood.
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Josh Clark
It's quite a bit. They also determined that the Mediterranean Sea moved inland, the coast moved inland by about a mile a day. Can you imagine seeing that happen before your eyes? Like you're just. You'd almost lose your mind again. That would make a really great story that you would pass along and explain it in whatever terms you could. But there would have been coastal settlements along the Bosporus Strait on either side, on the Mediterranean side, and also on the Black Sea side that all this water poured into, and it would have just completely wiped those settlements out. So the people who did survive would have been like, something really bad happened here. And this is how we're going to make sense of it. And the timing of it was just right. It happened probably about 7,000 years ago. And as we'll see, there's a lot of stuff that happened around 7,000, 7,500 years ago around the world, because the end of that last glacial period started in the sea levels rose, and all sorts of crazy stuff happened as a result. But that's one that people point to is like, that may be the flood that gave rise to the Gilgamesh and Noah stories, no pun intended. Gave rise, I think. So it really was unintended. Yeah.
- [30:32]
Chuck Bryant
Another one about 7,500 years ago was the creation of the Persian Gulf, kind of a similar kind of thing during the last ice age. What is now the Persian Gulf used to not be. It used to be a very nice river valley near the Fertile Crescent where people lived. And the thing here, though, that I don't quite get is that they haven't. They haven't found any evidence of things underwater there, right?
- [30:57]
Josh Clark
No, they haven't. The reason why they think this happened, Chuck, is because all of a sudden, on the shores of the Gulf as we know it today, some really well established settlements with decorative pottery and well built stone houses and all sorts of other things, domesticated animals just sprang up basically overnight.
- [31:20]
Chuck Bryant
So they were relocated, essentially.
- [31:22]
Josh Clark
Yeah, that's really the only explanation. It went from hunting settlements, hunting camps, to all of a sudden, these people are like an advanced society.
- [31:30]
Chuck Bryant
That makes sense.
- [31:30]
Josh Clark
The best explanation is that their original settlement is down there beneath the Persian Gulf. We just haven't found it yet.
- [31:37]
Chuck Bryant
What about Doggerland?
- [31:38]
Josh Clark
So Doggerland is another similar story. They both share what's called aqua terra, by the way, which is a coin or a term that was coined in the 90s to describe these lands that were exposed for 150,000 years, that humans were kind of developing and forming societies, and then were lost just 7,000, 7,500 years ago when the sea levels rose again. So Doggerland and the idea of the Gulf being an underwater, now submerged settlement, Doggerland's like that. But instead of in the Persian Gulf, it's been in The North Sea. It was a patch of land that connected the British Isles to Scandinavia before, until about 8,500 years ago.
- [32:23]
Chuck Bryant
Right. And here they have actually found submerged traces of settlements under the sea, unlike the one in the Persian Gulf.
- [32:31]
Josh Clark
Right. And they actually think that it's possible. Some, some people are saying, no, it was probably just, you know, slow, steady sea level rise that, that flooded Doggerland. But they, there was a massive landslide in I think Norway called the Storiga event that happened 8,500 years ago. And it probably generated a massive tsunami and it could have been big enough to have submerged Augerland permanently after that. Apparently that's how big that underwater landslide was.
- [33:04]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah, I was about to say underwater. You got to point that out.
- [33:07]
State Farm Advertiser
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- [33:09]
Josh Clark
But there's a flood story from Brittany around that area that says that a king's daughter was possessed by a demon and opened like their, their country's floodgates and that was flooded, you know, catastrophically. So it's like, you know, are they talking about this event that happened 8,500 years ago, that this survived as this legend until today?
- [33:34]
Chuck Bryant
That's right. And yet another right here in the. Well and now the US of A. But in the 1980s and 90s, they investigated flood myths of the indigenous peoples in the Pacific Northwest and they found out that their flood myths, this was a little more recent, this was around 1700 AD. But the idea is that there was a like magnitude 9 earthquake that caused a tsunami unleashing these big waves from basically sort of Vancouver island all the way down to Northern California.
- [34:05]
Josh Clark
Yeah, it was the Ho and the Quileute people who had this legend of thunderbird and whale getting in a fight. And what's interesting is, I mean there's all sorts of geological evidence. Apparently there's still trees that are just not where they're just not growing back. They were wiped clean from the tsunami. But there's a Japanese temple, a Buddhist temple, that marked the date January 6, 1700, because a tsunami wave made it all the way to Japan. And they noted it. So by basically cross correlating that Japanese noting of the date with the Ho and the Quileques story about Thunderbird and whale, they've said this story is about this particular event, which is pretty awesome.
- [34:55]
Chuck Bryant
And then sometimes it's just a culture like pre science again, making sense out of finding weird things like the Zuni people in the southwest of the United States. Obviously not back then. They saw these ancient marine animals and seashells in the fossils that they were finding and they Said, well, this is part of our creation story. There was a great flood and that's how this stuff got here.
- [35:20]
Josh Clark
Yeah, here in the desert, which is, I mean that's how a pre scientific culture would make sense of that kind of thing. Pretty cool.
- [35:28]
Chuck Bryant
Absolutely.
- [35:28]
Josh Clark
So I say we take one more break and we're going to talk about the other aspect of these myths, the mythology part of it. Right, Right after.
- [35:54]
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Josh Clark
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- [37:05]
Josh Clark
Okay, so if you take a myth and you strip the mythology off and you just look at the kernel of historic and try to figure out what event it's actually describing. You don't want to just forget the myth part. You want to go back and also look at the myth part too, because that reveals a lot about humans and who we are and how we think spread out even across cultures throughout the world. And there's a lot of similarities that pop up from examining geomythology, especially with flood myths. Even when you set aside the idea of, or I should say even when you account for the idea of missionaries spreading the Noah flood too.
- [37:49]
Chuck Bryant
So, yeah, you know, one of the things that's interesting to look at is how these things are, how these myths are similar. And one way that a lot of these flood myths are similar is that, and we've already seen a little bit in what we've talked about is oftentimes it's a man and a woman, usually a man and a wife, who are charged with gathering up the animals with repopulating the Earth afterward, saving the species, essentially. There's usually a warning, whether it's Noah's flood myth or all the others, where, you know, someone comes along and says, you know, you better get your act together, Earth, or tell everybody on Earth, you know, you are the messenger, to get their act together, or else I will rain down, rain upon you.
- [38:37]
Josh Clark
Right, yeah. There's also sometimes a warning. I guess one of the warnings, Chuck, that came through, I think we said earlier that the Chinese have, like, at least four flood myths. And one of the warnings that came through was to this brother and sister who freed a thunder God from their father's, I guess, chicken coop or whatever their father had captured him. And so the thunder God said, hey, thanks a lot, kids. By the way, things are about. About to get serious around here. You might want to build a boat. Yeah, I think they built a boat. But they're one of those interesting stories where you said, usually it's a man and wife who end up having to repopulate the Earth that put these two kids in the position of having to repopulate. And that was a taboo. Incest is basically the universal taboo, one of them. And that was the same in ancient China as well. So in different versions of the story, either the brother and sister basically got a pass, or this time, another version is that the brother had to go through a huge series of physical challenges and couldn't, and that somehow the Earth became populated anyway. And the third version is that they just made everybody out of clay that they made themselves. All right, okay. But if you start really kind of looking at floods, there's like, especially the purpose of the flood. That's the thing. It's very rare that the flood happens in a flood myth just for fun. There's almost always a reason. Humans want there to be a reason. So we've come up with different reasons over the years. And one of them is basically the apocalypse, that humanity is being wiped out, usually as punishment, and that we deserve to survive. And we would have to survive or else we wouldn't be around to be passing the story along. So somebody had to survive. So that's where those people who repopulate the Earth come from. But the rest of us, we got wiped out because we displeased the gods.
- [40:45]
Chuck Bryant
That's right. Another one is that we started out as an ocean and nothing but ocean. So this is just a reset to that return to our original state here on planet Earth. And there are a lot of cultures around the world that Basically thought that we started out as an ocean from ancient Egypt. Norse, I think, in Japan as well. And basically, you know, it's either returns us to a state of water or an island above an ocean.
- [41:16]
Josh Clark
Yeah. And that's. I mean, that's so closely related to the apocalyptic one too. It's just that's. We just happen to be returning to how things were before, which is also related to another kind of theme as a reason for the flood, which is purification. Like, yes, you're being punished and yes, you're returning to this primordial state. But the ultimate reason that, say, like, God or the gods have is to purify things, to rid the world of evil and just keep the good and start over with just the good. Basically. That's another big one too. And they're all kind of, you know, pretty tightly wound up together.
- [41:52]
Chuck Bryant
Yeah. Then there's just angry gods. And it might not have anything to do with you doing anything wrong as a culture or getting your act together. It's just that the gods were angry, so they kicked open the top of that mountain and it became a volcano. And sorry ts for you guys.
- [42:10]
Josh Clark
Yeah, just happens. But that's still interesting that people. That's a rationalization even in itself, though, isn't it? It's just kind of like sometimes that happens even if you didn't do anything wrong.
- [42:21]
Chuck Bryant
I think so.
- [42:23]
Josh Clark
So there's another one too. That Emperor Yu myth is a good example of industriousness. People working together. People control where the earth has done something crazy. Maybe the gods were responsible, but humans managed to overcome it, either in the form of like, a savior, like Emperor Yu. There's one in Bhutan, I believe there's a legend about Guru Repoach and the Zhangpo Valley. He shows up and basically drains a lake, exposing all this fertile farmland where a village was then settled. Or the. And I apologize for this. I genuinely could not find a pronunciation for it. Chuck. I really tried. But the Goongani G aboriginal people G U N G G A N Y J I they have one where the tsunami keeps coming and coming and the sea levels are rising and rising. So the people are organized and get together and start rolling boulders down into the sea. And it actually prevents the sea levels from rising any further. So I think that's probably my favorite one, the industriousness and control ones.
- [43:34]
Chuck Bryant
It's good stuff. And then people have gotten a little weird over the years with trying to explain these away. There was a Hungarian psychoanalyst named Giza Rohaim in the 1930s that said no. The reason why we have all these flood myths is because they're just from people's dreams. And people in ancient times drank a lot of water and peed a lot at night. And so they dreamt about floods and told stories about floods. Or maybe it is the gods urinating on people, like, literally, which. And there are myths that literally talk about that, that floods are a result of God's peeing on Earth. But I don't know about expanding that to, like, all the cultural flood myths all over the world for all time.
- [44:22]
Josh Clark
Right. And there's others that explain it as, like, men's jealousy of not being able to give birth and that it's a reference to the bursting of the amniotic sac or something like that. I feel like when psychoanalysis gets involved, especially in this day and age, it's kind of like, that was a nice try, everybody. Let's just move on to geomythology instead, you know, I think so. That's where I'm putting my money, Chuck. Geomythology. It's fantastic stuff. And also, I should say, I want to give a shout out to one of our past episodes. Was there Real Atlantis? We were doing geomythology without even realizing it. That's right. If you want to know more about geomythology and flood myths, then just start searching the Internet because there's a lot of interesting stuff out there about it. And since I said that, it's time for Listener manual.
- [45:13]
Chuck Bryant
This is a shout out to the.
- [45:14]
Josh Clark
The.
- [45:15]
Chuck Bryant
One of the winners of the Stuff you should know 5k. This is something that the Stuff you should Know army puts together every year now in a. In a virtual way right now. But our buddy Aaron Mazzell is one of the people who works on this. They're looking to do this again next year because here's the deal is they sent me this stuff afterward, right? And I was like, well, we need to get this before. So I'm going to go ahead and say it now, and then we'll see if we can remind people. But people voted to have this happen in late September, early October. So 2022 is when it's hopefully going to happen again. No official registration, no entry fee. There's an event page, I guess, at the Stuff youf Should Know Army Facebook site. And I think people had two weekends to participate this year, and they had bike riders this year. So regarding, you know, regardless of what your status as an athlete is, they're finding ways for you to get involved, which is really Cool.
- [46:13]
Josh Clark
Yeah.
- [46:14]
Chuck Bryant
So this is from Amanda, though, writing in to say that I'm a winner, baby. You guys are the best. Been listening for years and I was happy to participate in the virtual Stuff youf should know 5k this year. It was a cool event that brought some really nice people together at our little corner of the Internet. I'm not a particularly good or fast runner, but I get out there and I did the dang thing and that's what counts. The other participants in the 5K radiate that spirit and are so encouraging of each other. Don't ask me how, but somehow I achieved fastest 5k for a woman in this event. What a cool feeling. So today I listened to Venus Flytraps on the way home and came across a package addressed stuff you should know. 5K champ Amanda Thompson and just about cry and got a handcrafted by sufficient army member metal rack for her efforts. And it's really great.
- [47:08]
Josh Clark
That's pretty great. She has to buy her own medal, though.
- [47:12]
Chuck Bryant
I don't think so.
- [47:14]
Josh Clark
That's fantastic, man. Congratulations, Amanda. That's wonderful news. And congratulations to everybody who participated and finished or even just started or even thought about doing it. Maybe you'll do it next year. Who knows?
- [47:27]
Chuck Bryant
That's right. Congratulations to everyone.
- [47:30]
Josh Clark
Yep. And again, that is a very cool thing that stuff you should know fans do. And it makes us love you guys even more. You got anything else?
- [47:38]
Chuck Bryant
No. Just be on the lookout next late summer fall for news on the Army Facebook page.
- [47:44]
Josh Clark
Yeah, somebody please remind us ahead of time so we can tell everybody else. And if you want to remind us of something, we would love to love to be reminded because that probably means we forgot. And you can put that reminder in the form of an email which you can send to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.
- [48:04]
iHeartRadio Announcer
Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show. This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.