A (2:28)

I said musical instruments, but yeah, there you go. They're whistles.

B (2:31)

Whistles. I mean, you could have Guessed that from the title, right?

A (2:34)

Probably.

B (2:35)

But these whistles are special whistles. First of all, they're kind of tiny, but if you look closely, they had a skull engraved on them. And what they think this whole thing represents is the kind of union or combination between Ehekatl and Miclanticulti. These are two gods. Mictlanticlti is the Aztec God of the underworld and death. Ehecatl is the Aztec wind God. And you put them together, you get two very powerful gods, and they think that's what these death whistles that the guy was holding symbolized.

A (3:09)

Nice job in those pronunciations.

B (3:10)

I really looked it up. Yeah. And, dude, you should see how many mispronounced words there are that they just sound so confident. There's one. There's a festival called Toshcottle. Toshcottle. T O X, C a T, L. You have no idea how many, like, how's it pronounced? Videos say tox caudl. It's not Tox Cottle.

A (3:37)

Yeah, it's pretty disappointing the amount of wrong stuff out there.

B (3:41)

Yeah. Yeah. And if you're not sure how to pronounce something, don't make a video telling other people how to pronounce something.

A (3:48)

Yeah, I mean, we mispronounce stuff on this show, worldwide show, but we don't tell people we're pronouncing it right.

B (3:54)

Exactly. This isn't, like, how pronunciation works. Come on.

A (3:58)

So this is the Aztec death whistle. Those two whistles this guy had. If you do a little research, you're probably gonna see stuff about how they were used to terrify enemies in battle. Like, they all play them at once. But what we think we've come down to, thanks to, you know, the study of a lot of people, but especially this one guy, arnd both, who is a music archaeologist, is that these things probably were a little more ceremonial and maybe used to help guide the spirit in the afterlife. So this dude, I don't know if he's a doctor or not, but Both is his name. Like I said, it's very cool. He examines ancient musical instruments and artifacts, tries to, in a lot of cases, rebuild them and take some good guesses on what they were used for.

B (4:46)

Yeah. Which is, I'm sure, way harder than you would think.

A (4:49)

Yeah.

B (4:50)

So these. Those two death whistles were excavated in the late 90s, I think, in just a couple of years later in the aughts. Did you say Booth?

A (5:01)

I said both.

B (5:02)

Both. He was the first person to actually play them. These things that were hundreds and hundreds of years old. That a skeleton had been holding for God knows how long. Well, hundreds of years. And he apparently didn't. He was like, these suck. These are terrible death whistles.

A (5:21)

Yeah, it was a little underwhelming. It didn't make the big frightening noise they might have expected. So he did CT scans on them, rebuilt them larger, like exact replicas, and he found that they were an air spring whistle. So the Mayans had come up with these in 7 to 800 CE. And you blow air through this intake tube and it reacts with a spring of air inside this chamber and distorts the sound. Then you can cup your hand over the bottom like a lot of wind instruments and change the tone and stuff, but it's completely its own thing. It's not like any Western. Any other western wind instrument.

B (6:00)

Yeah. They were only made in pre Columbian America. They are very specific. And spring in this case is not like a coiled spring. It's like a spring of water that you get delicious water from. Right?

A (6:11)

That's right.

B (6:12)

So like I said, there's a big. Oh, wait, we'll just take a break. How about that?

A (6:17)

Yeah. We'll be right back.

C (6:30)

Foreign. What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me, is where culture meets the soul, A place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated. Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if youf Can Hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bowen Yang.

A (7:39)

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B (8:24)

Okay, Chuck. So I said there's a big, strong connection, as I was saying before, before we broke, between the wind God Mictlanticolti and Eekatl. And I wasn't lying. There's written proof that shows that I'm correct.

A (8:41)

That's right. It's written in a pre Columbian document called the Codex Borgia. And it is a manuscript. It's illustrated and it shows. It's got a lot of stuff in there. It's got history, it's got like some of the things they were studying, like botany, the stars. And it's got a great big comprehensive list of their pantheon of gods and.

B (9:00)

The top notch mushroom soup casserole recipe.

A (9:06)

It might, for all I know. I can't tell anymore.

B (9:09)

So Mictlanticulti and Eekado. I just like saying them now. I know now that I can say them correctly. Yeah. They're back to back, arms crossed, like local news anchors.

A (9:22)

Did they invent that?

B (9:23)

I think so.

A (9:24)

Oh, God.

B (9:26)

Both looking at you, the viewer, almost with a sassy kind of look on their face.

A (9:31)

Sure.

B (9:32)

And they are guarding the underworld together. So these guys are definitely connected in the Aztec pantheon, which goes to support. That's what those death whistles are kind of symbolizing. These two gods together that in one interpretation at least you could say is life and death. The God of life. The God of death.

A (9:53)

That's right. So I mentioned it may be used to kind of guide you through the spirit world. In that Aztec tradition, when someone dies, it's a pretty perilous route to get to the underworld.

B (10:06)

It takes nine years.

A (10:08)

Yeah, nine years. And there's all kinds of rituals that people in the living world do to, like, urge them on, to give them strength. One example here, in this case, it's pretty appropriate, is the dead cross a large field being whipped by a wind, like a really fierce wind. And in that book in the Codex Borgia, those winds are represented by blades, by obsidian blades. And those were the blades that they used to make sacrifices. You go back to this temple site where they found these whistles. And not only did they have those whistles, but there was a ceramic bowl there as well that had obsidian blades next to the body of this guy.

B (10:47)

And a little sign that said, take one, leave one. So this, I mean, all of this together just basically shows this is what those death whistles almost certainly were. And the reason that we're. And not just us, but both in particular booth or both the music archaeologist is going to all this trouble is because we don't know exactly what these things were used for, how they were used, what they were meant to sound like. We just don't know. So you have to piece together all this disparate information to kind of come together. And what it ultimately is laying a pretty good case for is that these were ritual musical instruments used in a specific ritual, probably, like you said, to help departed souls across that field, that one level of the underworld.

A (11:38)

Yeah. The wind.

B (11:38)

And then also in that festival, I talked about Tochcottl to honor the God Tezcatlipoca. That one is pronounced like it looks.

A (11:49)

Yeah. So in 1913, there was a folklorist named Louis Spence who wrote. I really nailed that one, who wrote Myths of Mexico and Peru. And he described this festival, and this is sort of the key part as far as we're concerned. On the day of this festival, a youth was slain. Yada, yada, yada. He carried also the whistle, symbolical of the deity lord of the night Wind, and made with it a noise such as the weird wind of night makes when it hurries through the streets.

B (12:19)

Yeah. And it does. I mean, there you have it. There's videos online of people playing these, like, indigenous musicians playing death whistles. And you can kind of get the idea of like, oh, okay, this kind of does sound like an agonized scream. There's a point to be made, though, that these replica death whistles that especially, you know, made by both, they're larger than the regular size. So just by that alone means they're not going to sound like the other ones will. So I think what both kind of concluded is that he's just. He's not instructed in how to play these original small death whistles that the sacrifice guy was. Was. Was holding.

A (13:02)

Yeah.

B (13:02)

And that he just. He can't do it. Never had to do. He looked around at the crowd. Yeah.

A (13:08)

Yeah. The notion that they were maybe used in battle, they definitely did stuff like that with, obviously, drums, but. But also blowing into conch shells, like the waponi Woo getting together. Maybe they're communicating with each other. Maybe they're just, again, trying to, like, scare their enemies. But when they asked both, like, well, what about this death whistle? He was like, have you seen these things? He's like, this is the size of my pinky.

B (13:32)

Yeah, it's tiny.

A (13:33)

He's like, this isn't gonna scare. Even 300 of these. Isn't gonna scare anybody.

B (13:36)

No. But some drums will. And a conch shell will for sure.

A (13:39)

Yeah.

B (13:41)

So that's it. Death whistles probably not used in battle, but almost certainly used in rituals that ended in someone's beheading. That's right, Chuck said. That's right. I think that means short stuff.

A (13:52)

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C (13:58)

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A (14:01)

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