Short Stuff: Bliss Point

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know – Episode: Short Stuff: Bliss Point

Release Date: July 30, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction to the Bliss Point

In this episode of "Short Stuff," hosts Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant delve into the intriguing concept of the bliss point—a term coined by food scientists to describe the perfect balance of ingredients that makes foods irresistible. The hosts explore how this scientifically engineered sweet spot compels consumers to crave and consume junk food incessantly.

Josh Clark [01:04]: "We're talking about the bliss point, which is essentially what food scientists have come up with to make you eat and crave junk food ceaselessly."

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Evolution of Sugar Consumption

The discussion begins with alarming statistics on sugar consumption in the United States. In 2022, the average American consumed approximately 126.4 grams of sugar daily, totaling over 46 kilograms per year. This marks a significant increase from 17.5 pounds in 1915, coinciding with the rise of processed foods.

Chuck Bryant [01:23]: "Out of the gate, the average American consumed...46 kilos of sugar per American per year. Some people say it's like up to 150, which is a ton of sugar."

The hosts emphasize that this surge pertains to added sugars, distinct from the natural sugars found in fruits, highlighting the impact of industrially added sweetness on public health.

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Howard Moskowitz and the Science of Bliss Points

Central to the episode is Howard Moskowitz, a pioneering market researcher whose work revolutionized the food industry by identifying and optimizing the bliss points for various products. Moskowitz’s approach involved extensive market research, taste tests, and psychophysical studies to determine the ideal levels of salt, fat, and sugar that maximize consumer appeal without overstepping into overconsumption.

Josh Clark [02:05]: "Howard Moskowitz...revolutionized the food industry...identified the idea of bliss points...the perfect balance between fat, sugar, and salt in any given food product."

Moskowitz’s methodology ensures that products like Doritos and Cheetos are tailored to trigger continuous consumption by aligning with human taste preferences at a granular level.

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Applications in the Food Industry

Prego Chunky is one of the success stories attributed to Moskowitz’s research. By testing 45 different varieties, Moskowitz helped Prego select the optimal chunky texture that appealed most to consumers.

Chuck Bryant [14:48]: "They had 45 different versions of Prego Chunky that they were testing until they got to their main one."

Similarly, Dr Pepper underwent rigorous testing with 61 different versions and 4,000 taste tests to arrive at the now-famous cherry vanilla flavor.

Josh Clark [14:32]: "They went through 61 different versions in four, 4,000 different taste tests before they finally released it."

These examples illustrate the extensive processes behind seemingly simple food and beverage products, underscoring the meticulous science of achieving bliss points.

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Natural vs. Engineered Bliss Points

The hosts contrast highly engineered bliss points in junk foods with the natural balance found in healthier options. For instance, an apple has its own bliss point, making it enjoyable but not excessively so, thanks to factors like high fiber content that induce satiety.

Josh Clark [05:02]: "They don't want you to feel satisfied, they don't want you to feel satiated. They just want that bliss point such that your brain's just like, keep going, keep going."

In contrast, processed foods like chips and snacks are designed to maximize palatability without promoting fullness, leading to overconsumption.

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Psychological Effects and Consumer Behavior

Moskowitz's work as a psychophysicist bridges the gap between sensory stimuli (taste) and brain responses, effectively manipulating consumer cravings. By fine-tuning the levels of salt, fat, and sugar, food companies tap into the brain’s reward mechanisms, making it difficult for consumers to stop eating.

Chuck Bryant [03:06]: "He's a psychophysicist...the relationship between a stimulus and your brain's response to it."

This strategic manipulation not only drives sales but also fosters habitual consumption patterns, contributing to public health concerns related to obesity and metabolic diseases.

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Personal Anecdotes and Examples

Josh and Chuck share personal stories that highlight the pervasive influence of bliss-point-engineered foods. Chuck recounts his wife's difficulty in resisting Cheetos, attributing it to the meticulous calibration of flavor and texture that makes them hard to stop eating.

Chuck Bryant [11:08]: "Cheetos...perfect snack for as far as Bliss Point goes...she can't stop eating them when they're in the house."

They also discuss the obsessive variety of Oreo flavors, noting how introducing novel tastes not only garners media attention but also reinforces the consumption of the original product.

Josh Clark [16:15]: "Oreo goes really well with that [glass of cold whole milk]."

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Conclusion: Impact on Diet and Consumer Wellness

The episode concludes with a critical view of the 20th-century business mindset, where the focus on maximizing profits through consumer addiction overrides considerations of health and well-being.

Chuck Bryant [09:22]: "They're not like, let's make something that people really like and that tastes awesome. They're like, let's make something that they will eat and eat and eat."

The hosts urge listeners to become more conscious of the engineered aspects of their favorite foods and consider the broader implications on personal health and society.

Josh Clark [12:18]: "Hopefully more and more people are like, I'm not eating chips anymore. This is dumb."

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Notable Quotes

• Josh Clark [01:04]: "We're talking about the bliss point, which is essentially what food scientists have come up with to make you eat and crave junk food ceaselessly."
• Chuck Bryant [03:06]: "He's a psychophysicist...the relationship between a stimulus and your brain's response to it."
• Josh Clark [05:02]: "They don't want you to feel satisfied, they don't want you to feel satiated. They just want that bliss point such that your brain's just like, keep going, keep going."
• Chuck Bryant [09:22]: "They're not like, let's make something that people really like and that tastes awesome. They're like, let's make something that they will eat and eat and eat."

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Final Thoughts

"Short Stuff: Bliss Point" offers a compelling exploration of how the food industry leverages scientific insights to create products that not only satisfy but also keep consumers coming back for more. By unpacking the science behind bliss points and highlighting real-world applications, Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant shed light on the subtle yet profound ways our dietary choices are influenced, encouraging listeners to make more informed decisions about the foods they consume.

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Listen to the full episode on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

This is an I Heart podcast.

[Josh Clark]

Living with a rare autoimmune condition comes with challenges but also incredible strength. Especially for those living with conditions like myasthenia gravis or mg, and chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, otherwise known as cidp, finding empowerment in the community is critical. Untold Stories Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenics, explores people discovering strength in the most unexpected places. Listen to Untold Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. Josh, Chuck, Jerry, not Dave, but Dave still.

[Chuck Bryant]

Anyway, Short Stuff, that's right, another banger of a job by you, thanks to your research with science approved journal, the Marketing Sage. Optimizing Nutrition across the Margin. Our old [e-mail], mashed and the Pinnoleon, whatever that is.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Yeah. They were all very good resources because this is kind of like a wide ranging topic. We're talking about the bliss point, which is essentially what food scientists have come up with to make you eat and crave junk food ceaselessly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, you have a pretty startling stat here. Out of the gate, the average American consumed, and this is a few years ago in 2022, 126.4 grams of sugar a day, which is 101 pounds, or 46 kilos of sugar per American per year. Some people say it's like up to 150, which is a ton of sugar. In 1915, that number was about 17 and a half pounds. And processed foods were developed in that time span. And that's literally to blame.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. And that's added sugar. That's not like the sugar from fruit. It's the sugar that you could, like, put into a package and sell at the store. That's the sugar that they're counting right there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And there's a guy named Michael Moss. He wrote a book that you probably have heard of, called Salt, Sugar and Fat. Came out, I don't know, within the last decade or so. But he talks about a market researcher named Howard Moskowitz. And Moskowitz basically gave us the food industry as we understand it today. And I looked up and down to see if he expressed any remorse at the end of his life. And he doesn't seem to have been anything but proud of his work. But the reason he revolutionized the food industry is that in the 70s, he identified the idea of bliss points like it was almost a discovery More than an invention. And that is the perfect balance between fat, sugar and salt in any given food product. It's not the same for every food product. It's specific to each individual Dorito or Cheeto or whatever. And if you do it right, people are just going to eat those things constantly and they're not going to stop. They're going to have trouble stopping. In fact.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He was a. What's known as a psychophysicist. And they are people who look at the relationship between a stimulus and your brain's response to it. And, and in this case, we're talking about taste as far as the stimulus and then as far as our brain's response. It's like, I want to eat all of that that I can. And he was eventually became known as like a really pretty brilliant market researcher who would pump out these really detailed reports on consumer. On consumers consuming.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And some of these could be like over 100 pages long, like really drill down to like kind of weird levels of specificity and granularity. And he would discover a bliss point of something. And I think he's really well known for helping Prego the Saucier come up with their chunky variety. And he introduced 32 different mustards and 17 different olive oils and a lot of other products to the market.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And again, by just doing this exhaustive market research and interviews and focus groups and testing to just figure out what people wanted and then figure out how to make it so that the most people would buy it because it had maximal palatability. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And we have bliss points for everything. Basically, they're different for different macronutrients. Bliss points for junk food are just heavily engineered to do that. But there are natural bliss points, like protein satisfies people pretty quickly.

[Josh Clark]

So.

[Chuck Bryant]

So I think Marty Kindall says on the Optimizing Nutrition blog, I had a pretty funny mistake that we beat out, that if a food has a protein content of just 14%, that's going to make you feel satisfied. And that's why a lot of high protein diets are recommended, because you're just probably not going to eat as much because you can feel fuller and become satisfied more quickly.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And also that's why you rarely find protein in junk food.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Clark]

They don't want you to feel satisfied, they don't want you to feel satiated. They just want that bliss point such that your brain's just like, keep going, keep going. And the reason why salt, fat and sugar are focused on is because those three combined basically set off all of our taste buds. Right. So it really like pumps out a huge message to our brain saying like, this is amazing, let's just eat this forever. And like you said, everything kind of has a bliss point. And also most foods or a lot of foods have these same three ingredients naturally. But again, these foods aren't really engineered to keep us going to maximalize the bliss point. They just kind of have a natural version in it. An apple tastes good because it has its own bliss point, but it's not so highly engineered that you don't just keep eating apple after apple.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. That would make you sick in your belly.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. Because they're high in fiber. They're good for that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Should we take a break?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, we should.

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[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford and in session 421 of Therapy for Black Girls, I sit down with Dr. Afia and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health and the ways we heal.

[Guest]

Because I think hair is a complex language system, right? In terms of it can tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from, your spiritual beliefs. But I think with social media there's like a hyper fixation and observation of our hair, right? That this is sometimes the first thing someone sees when we make a post or a reel. It's how our hair is styled.

[Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford]

We talk about the important role hairstylists play in our communities, the pressure to always look put together and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying, don't miss session 418 with Dr. Angela Neal Barnett, where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to therapy for black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, now, when you're on the road, driving in your truck, why not learn a thing or two from Josh and Chuck? It's stuff you should know.

[Josh Clark]

Stuff you should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right.

[Josh Clark]

So again, salt, fat, sugar, these. These three things, if you can get that down, your food company will probably be successful if you can figure out how to just kind of put them together just right. And they serve other purposes, too. Like salt masks the taste of other ingredients pretty well. Sugar is also a preservative, so the shelf life of a product is extended from it. But really, taste is essentially what you're trying to do with this. But it goes to show you just how not precarious, just what a juggling act it is to come to the bliss point. So it's maximally palatable. But also, there's enough sugar in there to keep your stovetop stuffing from turning bad on the shelf if you don't move them fast enough.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, this is one of those that's kind of disappointing to learn how sort of. They're not like, let's make something that people really like and that tastes awesome. They're like, let's make something that they will eat and eat and eat. I don't know why I just became German.

[Josh Clark]

That's the problem with 20th century business mindset that's still around today is hook your audience and you'll have profits for your shareholders constantly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. From Doritos to social media.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it sucks.

[Chuck Bryant]

So we don't know. You can't get a recipe for Dorito, like an actual recipe. But that optimizing nutrition blog that you found, they took. They looked at hundreds of thousands of food logs and came up with some pretty good guesses on sort of a prime bliss point ratio, I guess.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wherein sugar makes up or should make up about 23.5% of the calories, salt about 2.9 grams per 2,000 calories, and fat about 24% of the food's calories. And again, this is not like the construction of a good diet. This is if you're looking to maximize that bliss point.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. Yeah. It's not a good diet. Right. So there's other things that come into play that food scientists have figured out along the way. Do you remember the chewy granola bar revolution of the early 90s?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, sure.

[Josh Clark]

Those are good chewy mouthfeel. Was basically investigated, and they figured out how to maximize that. And then also crunchy, you can't really sneeze at that. But the biggest invention or the biggest discovery aside from Bliss Point, as far as food science goes, is vanishing caloric density, which is really important for junk food.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, this is incredible. This is the idea that something that you put in your mouth to eat that has that sort of melts in your mouth quality. Your brain doesn't register that you are eating calories. So that's when, like, popcorn is one of them. That's why you can sit down and eat a giant tub of popcorn at the movies, because it kind of has that melt in your mouth feel. And your brain's not saying, like, maybe you should put this down because you're eating a lot of calories. It doesn't signal your brain in that way. And a little fact that I learned from your research that hits home to my family was that they have found that Cheetos, Michael Moss said that that is the perfect snack for as far as Bliss Point goes, as far as the crunchy mouthfeel, the flavor ratio, and most importantly, that vanishing caloric density. And my friend, my wife Emily has a Cheeto problem such that we don't keep Cheetos in the house. She's like, I can't stop eating them when they're in the house.

[Josh Clark]

I know how she feels. I've got some products like that that I just. I don't keep in the house.

[Chuck Bryant]

You can't.

[Josh Clark]

I do have to say, though, that it's gotten easier and easier with just how ridiculous the prices are for chips these days.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, chips are pricey.

[Josh Clark]

It's insane, Chuck. Like, a bag of ruffles printed on the bag is $7.50 for half of a bag of Ruffles potato chips. Now that is insane. The only good part of it is, hopefully more and more people are like, I'm not eating chips anymore. This is dumb.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, we don't eat a lot of that stuff. You know, when we'll go to the lake for the weekends with, like, kids and stuff, we'll get, like, chips and dip, and that's always fun. I do have a French onion son chip problem.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man, I love that so much.

[Josh Clark]

The mouthfeel of those turn me off, actually.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I love it. And they also. They're one of those sort of evils that make you think you're eating sort of a healthy, like a multigrain thing. And it's like, I don't think those are any healthier than a fried potato chip, Right?

[Josh Clark]

Well, here, take my hand and help me off of my soapbox because I have a follow up question about Emily's Cheeto problem.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, let's hear it.

[Josh Clark]

Does she like the original Cheetos, the straight ahead version? Or is she more like a fire, fiery hot virgin kind of Cheeto lover?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, she's a standard Cheeto. And to be specific, not a cheese puff either. Like a real Cheeto. Like a Red Flintstone club Cheeto. But it's funny that she accidentally got some of those Flamin Hots and Ruby was like, I wanna try those. And we were like, no, those are way too hot. You can't eat those. And she was like, no, I can handle it. And she ate it. And it was one of those things where you can see her eyes starting to water. And she was like, these are really good. I like these.

[Josh Clark]

She played it off. Oh yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

She's like, I want to take those to school. And then we later found she was trading them, I'm sure.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, she's like, here, try one of these, you'll love it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

So, okay, so just figuring out the bliss point is not enough. You don't just figure it out and release it. You try a million different combinations. Maybe not a million, but not that far off. And you test it with people. That's how you fine tune everything and get it just right so that you find that bliss point that that's gonna help you sell as much. And so those taste tests can really start to add up. There's some legendary ones. As a matter of fact, one of them is Prego Chunky.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, we mentioned that earlier. They had 45 different versions of Prego Chunky that they were testing until they got to their main one. And then I'm gonna let you handle the Dr. Pepper. Cause that's just amazing.

[Josh Clark]

Cherry vanilla Dr. Pepper. They went through 61 different versions in four, 4,000 different taste tests before they finally released it. It's not bad.

[Chuck Bryant]

I've never tried it. I mean, I'm not a Dr. Pepper guy. It's such a specific. I don't like hate it, but it's just not one I go to.

[Josh Clark]

I'm not either, but that's. Or wait, maybe it's the cream soda Dr. Pepper. That's not bad. I don't really drink it either, but I tried one once and I was like, that's actually pretty good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

What about Oreos, Chuck? Because one of the things they've become known for in the last few years is releasing just nutso flavors all the time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, you know, this is probably the Gen X in me coming out, but I love a not. I do love a standard Oreo, but to me, they hit peak Oreo with the double stuff standard.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, really? You don't like lemon?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I mean, I'm not. I'm not into lemony dessert desserts.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. You probably wouldn't like lemon Oreos then. I think they're very good. And I also think some of the limited editions they've come out with are. Are pretty good. Like birthday cake, which was the first one they did to commemorate their hundredth birthday back in 2012. To me, the pin, it was very good. I think it's still around. To me, the pinnacle was Rice Krispie Treats Oreos. They were amazing.

[Chuck Bryant]

That sounds so good.

[Josh Clark]

They were really, really good. If they re released any, I would definitely go get those, but I've very fortunately been like, I should probably stop buying, like, crazy flavored Oreos because I just eat the whole bag, like, in one sitting, basically. Oh, man.

[Chuck Bryant]

Glass of cold whole milk.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Oreos go really well with that, but. Oh. The reason why that they've been releasing so many flavors is that they figured out when they release a crazy flavor, it gets lots of press. So it gets people to the stores. Right. And they found that when people are at the stores to buy that crazy flavored Oreo, they apparently remember how much they love the original Oreos. Like you, so they buy both. Yeah, that's great. To an extent, I guess. It's great for Nabisco.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I bet that was a finding too, where they were like, oh, my God, look what's happening.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Chuck went to get a Lady Gaga Oreo, and he got the double stuff as well.

[Josh Clark]

I know. That's so weird. That was one of the flavors. And I guess before we sign off, Chuck, I think we should remind everybody, as we have many times, Oreo is the knockoff. Hydrox was the original.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

Everybody's short stuff is out. Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

[Guest]

For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit.

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