Short Stuff: Devil Horns

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: Short Stuff – Devil Horns Episode Summary

Release Date: August 13, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant
Podcast: Stuff You Should Know by iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction to the Devil Horns Sign

[00:38] Josh Clark:
Josh opens the episode with enthusiasm, introducing the topic: the iconic devil horns hand sign, a staple in the metal community. He highlights its deep association with metal music and sets the stage for an exploration of its origins and cultural significance.

Historical Origins and Misconceptions

[00:59] Chuck Bryant:
Chuck begins by explaining the traditional use of the hand sign, clarifying that its original meaning is quite different from its metal connotation. “When you're at a metal show doing this, you are, you know, what you're really doing is just a fun thing where you're like, this band rocks. ... it’s known as a corna, which is Italian for horn. It is what you do in old Italy ... to ward off the evil eye. It’s like, no, get the evil out,” he explains ([01:17]).

[02:07] Josh Clark:
Josh adds, “All of the metal fans are like, oh, that's the problem. That's why Satan never shows up. We've been doing this wrong” ([02:16]), highlighting the common misconception among metal enthusiasts regarding the sign's origins.

Ronnie James Dio’s Role in Popularizing

[02:17] Chuck Bryant:
Chuck transitions to the commonly held belief that Ronnie James Dio popularized the sign within the metal community. He notes, “Most people trace it back to Dio, Ronnie James Dio ... he took over as the frontman, which is a cool way of saying lead singer for Black Sabbath” ([02:16]).

[03:07] Josh Clark:
Josh delves deeper into Dio’s contribution, mentioning his evolution from bands like Elf and Rainbow to Black Sabbath, and how Dio needed a unique hand signal since Ozzy Osbourne used the double peace sign, leading Dio to adopt the devil horns ([03:07]).

Alternative Origins: Gene Simmons and Others

[04:36] Josh Clark:
Josh brings up Gene Simmons of KISS, who claimed involvement with the sign. “Gene Simmons really outed himself as a dipstick... he tried to trademark his trademark hand sign...” ([04:40]). He criticizes Simmons for attempting to trademark what is essentially a gesture from American Sign Language, undermining its cultural authenticity.

[08:12] Chuck Bryant:
Chuck introduces Geezer Butler from Black Sabbath, who allegedly used the sign before Dio: “He said, hey, look at our photo from 1969. I'm flashing this sign... I actually suggested that he do it” ([08:12]).

Coven and Jinkx Dawson’s Contribution

[08:56] Josh Clark:
Josh reveals a fascinating twist in the hand sign’s history, crediting Jinkx Dawson of the band Coven as the true originator. “It was probably a blonde 18-year-old American girl named Jinkx Dawson who was the lead singer of a band called Coven...” ([08:56]).

[09:16] Chuck Bryant:
Chuck questions how Coven’s use fits into the metal narrative, noting their music wasn’t traditionally metal but was steeped in dark, occult themes: “It didn't seem even spooky” ([09:18]).

[10:01] Josh Clark:
Josh elaborates on Coven’s 1969 album Witchcraft Destroys Minds and Reaps Souls, highlighting song titles like “Black Sabbath” and “For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge” as evidence of their satanic imagery ([10:01]).

[11:20] Chuck Bryant:
Chuck emphasizes the intentional use of the sign by Coven, pointing out its deliberate presence on album art: “It is very clear. It's not an accident. It's very much on purpose” ([11:20]).

[12:06] Josh Clark:
Josh underscores the simultaneous emergence of Coven and Black Sabbath, suggesting a potential overlap in their use of satanic imagery, though denying direct influence: “Black Sabbath has always maintained this as just some spooky coincidence” ([12:06]).

Cultural Variations: Japanese Metal’s Kitsune Sign

[13:27] Josh Clark:
Josh introduces the Japanese variation of the hand sign, known as the Kitsune sign, which resembles a fox’s face. “In Japan, if you go to a metal concert... you will see something similar to a devil sign... making a face of a fox” ([13:23]).

[14:01] Chuck Bryant:
Chuck shares a personal moment of realization while mimicking the Kitsune sign, appreciating its cultural uniqueness: “I was like, oh, yeah, look at that little fox” ([14:01]).

Recent Updates and Reflections

[14:15] Chuck Bryant:
Transitioning to recent events, Chuck updates listeners on Ozzy Osbourne’s passing, reflecting on his legacy and impact on the metal community: “RIP Ozzy Osbourne, one of the metal greats” ([15:12]).

[15:11] Josh Clark:
Josh shares a poignant moment from Ozzy’s final performance, highlighting the emotional significance: “...Ozzy practically passed away on stage... it’s quite stirring” ([15:18]).

Conclusion

In this episode of Short Stuff: Devil Horns, Josh and Chuck delve deep into the origins and evolution of the devil horns hand sign, unraveling its historical roots, debunking common misconceptions, and shedding light on its cultural variations. From its Italian origins as a protective gesture to its adoption and popularization by metal icons like Ronnie James Dio, and further exploration into the contributions of bands like Coven, the hosts provide a comprehensive overview. They also honor the legacy of Ozzy Osbourne, reflecting on his influence in the metal world. This engaging discussion not only educates listeners about a ubiquitous symbol in metal culture but also celebrates the rich history and community that surrounds it.

Notable Quotes:

• Chuck Bryant [01:17]: “It’s known as a corna, which is Italian for horn. It is what you do in old Italy ... to ward off the evil eye. It’s like, no, get the evil out.”

• Josh Clark [02:16]: “All of the metal fans are like, oh, that's the problem. That's why Satan never shows up. We've been doing this wrong.”

• Chuck Bryant [04:16]: “Gene Simmons really outed himself as a dipstick... he tried to trademark his trademark hand sign.”

• Josh Clark [08:56]: “It was probably a blonde 18-year-old American girl named Jinkx Dawson who was the lead singer of a band called Coven.”

• Chuck Bryant [11:20]: “It is very clear. It's not an accident. It's very much on purpose.”

• Josh Clark [13:23]: “In Japan, if you go to a metal concert... you will see something similar to a devil sign... making a face of a fox.”

• Chuck Bryant [15:40]: “RIP Ozzy Osbourne, one of the metal greats.”

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the "Short Stuff: Devil Horns" episode, providing listeners with an informative and engaging overview of the discussion surrounding the devil horns sign in metal culture.

Transcript

[Chuck Bryant]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Ice Cube]

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[Josh Clark]

Hail Satan, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and this is our mid metal two parter short stuff that's more metal adjacent than you can possibly imagine. We're talking about the origin of the devil horns hand sign. That is as metal as metal gets. As far as hand signs go.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I've never had an opportunity to flash this, so I've never really done it. And I feel like a bit of a nerd, but I'm practicing because of that Judas Priest show. Yeah, I figure that'll be a great time to whip it out for the.

[Josh Clark]

First time for sure. So where did this come from, Chuck?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I mean, let's talk a little bit about what it actually is because there's a bit of irony attached to this because when you're at a metal show doing this, you are, you know, what you're really doing is just a fun thing where you're like, this band rocks. And this is the appropriate sign that you do at a show like this to indicate that I think this rocks. But sort of the kind of funny subtext is like, yeah, Satan's horns. But what it really is in origin is sort of the opposite. It's known as a corna, which is Italian for horn. And it is what you do in old Italy. Or even if you're, you know, have a grandma in Italy who is still, you know, still sort of superstitious to ward off the evil eye. It's not like, yeah, Satan rocks. It's like, no, get the out, Satan.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, exactly. So all of the metal fans are like, oh, that's the problem. That's why Satan never shows up. We've been doing this wrong.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So, yes, and like you said, is totally associated with metal. And most people trace it back to Dio, Ronnie James Dio, who we surely have talked about by now in part one at the very least. We definitely do in part two. He sang for Elf, Rainbow, Dio, obviously. He also took over after Ozzie Rip was kicked out of Black Sabbath in 1979. Dio took over as the frontman, which is a cool way of saying lead singer for Black Sabbath. And Ozzy was known to give, like, double peace signs as, like, his thing. And Dio was like, I can't do that same thing, but I gotta come up with something. Everybody's gonna be expecting some signature hand signal. So he turned to the corner.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. What is the deal with those hand signals? It's like, definitely a hard rock to metal thing because, like, Van Halen with Sammy Hagar, they did that thing. And I don't know, I just never feel like I see other bands doing that. It's interesting.

[Josh Clark]

What did Sammy Hagar and Van Halen do?

[Chuck Bryant]

They did the double I love you put together in such a way that, you know, it may have indicated something sort of naughty. I'll just say that.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, gotcha. I remember White lion made the W with their two index fingers and thumbs coming together.

[Chuck Bryant]

Did they really?

[Josh Clark]

No. And then Poison had the thing where you snap your fingers and then slap your hand on top of your closed fist three times.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then Klaus Mein would go, woop, woop, woop.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. I don't believe that one. So I didn't fall for that one. But, you know, a lot of people, if you're just a casual researcher, you'll just see everywhere that it was Ronnie James Dio. People have asked him this. There was an interview in 2001 where he said, I doubt very much that I would be the first one who ever did that. That's like saying, I invented the wheel. But I think you'd have to say that it made it fashionable. So he never claimed to be the originator of that hand symbol, which is great. Stand up, guy. Ronny James Dio. Rip. Of course. So where did it come from? I mean, Gene Simmons, in court, said it was him, or tried to. At least he.

[Josh Clark]

So here's the thing. Gene Simmons really outed himself as a dipstick. When?

[Chuck Bryant]

Which time?

[Josh Clark]

Well, this time in particular, right, because he tried to trademark his trademark hand sign, which is like the devil horns, but rather than the thumb closing over the two closed middle and ring fingers like you do with the double sign, he stuck his thumb out, so there's three digits sticking out, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

That's I love you.

[Josh Clark]

It is. It's the American sign language sign for I love you. Regardless of that, he tried to trademark it for himself, probably so he could sue people who continued to use it. And yeah, he tried to trademark an American Sign Language sign that just kind of is pretty dipsticky if you ask me. But what's interesting about it is that all the press that this thing got started to actually tease out the people who probably really were responsible for introducing the metal horns to heavy metal or to music at least.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Should we take a break?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. We'll be back with more of this mystery right after this.

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[Chuck Bryant]

So before we get to who possibly may have Created this. We should mention Geezer Butler, the bass player for Black Sabbath. He said, hey, look at our photo from 1969. I'm flashing this sign. So I did it before Dio and I actually suggested that he do it. And also this was on the COVID of Yellow Submarine. Like John Lennon in animated form is making the sign on the COVID of Yellow Submarine. That doesn't really clear it up because Geezer Butler is also wrong. So I'm gonna let you lay it on us, my friend of you who maybe started this whole thing.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, thank you for giving me this one because this is amazing. It turns out that it was probably a blonde 18 year old American girl named Jinkx Dawson who was the lead singer of a band called Coven, which would be, I guess, psychedelic rock maybe, but super dark psychedelic rock.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Did you listen to much of it?

[Josh Clark]

I did. It's not that great, but it didn't.

[Chuck Bryant]

Even sound psychedelic to me. And if you hadn't known the lyrics or the song titles, it didn't seem even spooky.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, you'd be like, is this like a Paul Revere in the Raiders cover band or something?

[Chuck Bryant]

Sort of. It was interesting.

[Josh Clark]

There was a. Yeah, there was an article by a guy named Dom Lawson in Metalhammer and he called it. He said it was scarcely any kind of metal, but it flowed with a similar dark magnetism. I think he kind of nailed it on the head.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Well, what's interesting is like, it is ultra metal with imagery and lyrics and song titles. But it's such a weird thing for your brain to hear that kind of thing coming out of something that's not metal sounding, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Right, exactly. This is a 1969 album called Witchcraft Destroys Minds and Reaps Souls. And it had songs like For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge on it, packed with Lucifer. And then very spookily, the first track on this album was called Black Sabbath.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Can I read a few other song titles? White Witch of Rose Hall, Choke, Thirst, Die.

[Josh Clark]

That's just one song.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. Commas in between each shoots and leaves. Wicked Woman is one. And there was one called Dignitaries of Hell.

[Josh Clark]

And so Jinx Dawson, the reason why she's like, probably the one who did this, she was actually raised in a Left Hand Path house and was raised as a Satanist in the Anton lavey and Aleister Crowley sense, the occult sense. And another reason why it's attributed to her and her band Coven is because no one, no one was doing this, especially in the States. They were from Chicago. They essentially had no inspirations aside from the real life Left Hand Path initiations that Jinks Dawson had been raised around.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, if you look at the. I think it's on the back cover right. Of their album Once Again, Witchcraft destroys minds and reaps souls. I just want to read that, like, five more times they're doing that sign. I mean, it's very clear. It's not an accident. It's very much on purpose. It's exactly what it is. And it was so convincing that in 2017, when Gene Simmons was trying to trademark this stuff, they came forward and Gene Simmons was like, you know, didn't know about these guys.

[Josh Clark]

Someone else who said they didn't know about these guys was Ozzy Osbourne and Geezer Butler and Black Sabbath.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And supposedly. And it gets even spookier, the bassist for Coven's name was Greg Oz Osborne.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

This is happening simultaneously in Chicago. Yes. As Black Sabbath is changing their name from Earth to Black Sabbath.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And Black Sabbath has always maintained this as just some spooky coincidence. Sure. It's believable. There's an article by a guy named Dom Lawson, that same Dom Lawson from Metal Hammer magazine, who basically says, like, their album got zero, it just didn't make it over to the uk. There's almost no way they would have heard this. And the reason why is because their album was released right around the time of the Sharon Tate murders, the Manson murders, and America was not mood for stuff like satanic rituals or bad music. Yeah, sure, but Lester Bangs heard it. He compared Black Sabbath to a combination of Cream and Covenant. So at least in the mind of legendary rock critic Lester Bangs, Coven was at least somehow related thematically to Black Sabbath.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think it was like, take the music of Cream and combine it with the spooky imagery and lyrics of Coven. Or Coven, as I like to say.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, you could say it that way, too. I forgot.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that seems to be the deal.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So I guess it's unclear exactly how much direct influence they had, but at the very least, everybody tips their hat to them for being pioneer in that respect.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, well, at the very least, it shut Gene Simmons up.

[Josh Clark]

Right, Exactly. So hats off to Jinkx Dawson for that. And then we can't talk about the devil horns without at least a nod to the Kitsune side. Kitsune means fox. And in Japan, if you go to a metal concert, say, like a baby metal concert, that will come up at the end of Part two, you will see something similar to a devil sign. But rather than the ring Finger and middle finger bent down and the thumb crossing them. The ring finger and middle finger come together and are pressed against the thumb with the pinky and the index finger up. And what you're doing is you're making a face of a fox. And it's very Japanese. That's what they do at Japanese metal shows.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, I didn't understand any of that until I just sort of did it as you were following along. And I was like, oh, yeah, look at that little fox.

[Josh Clark]

Great.

[Chuck Bryant]

Makes a nose is what it does.

[Josh Clark]

It does a little fox face. And you can be like, hello, I'm a fox.

[Chuck Bryant]

If we have one extra minute here, I would like to do a real time update. Breaking news in part one. I rattled off my top five metal bands, and I forgot. Cause I was listening to Hair Nation again later that day, and I have an update, and I hate to do it, but I'm going to, I guess, bump the Scorpions out in favor of Tesla.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. All right. I could see that they're similar in level.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I feel bad. Forgot about Tesla. And while I don't dive deep into Tesla, I think I'm gonna go on record and say that, like, three of their songs are some of the best songs of that era out of any band. So I have to put them in there.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, well, while we're talking, while we're doing updates, I watched, okay, Yumi showed me some, I guess, Instagram clips of Ozzy's funeral and Sharon Osbourne just losing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Brutal.

[Josh Clark]

It's so hard to watch. But then also she showed me a clip of him singing Coming Home, Mama, I'm Coming Home.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Great song.

[Josh Clark]

I think he's sitting on, like, a throne in this stadium in Birmingham. That last show, like, right before he died. Oh, yeah, it's amazing. I hadn't seen it when we recorded Part one of Heavy Metal, but, yeah, it's quite stirring. It's really neat to see. So I'm like, man, that is a really great way to go out, you know?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, he practically passed away on stage, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So we've said it before. Said it again. RIP Ozzy Osbourne, one of the metal greats. And I guess Chuck Short Stuff's out, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Unknown]

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