Short Stuff: Erfurt Latrine Disaster

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: Short Stuff - Erfurt Latrine Disaster

Release Date: November 27, 2024

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Introduction

In the "Short Stuff" episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosts Josh and Chuck delve into the bizarre and grim tale of the Erfurt Latrine Disaster. This detailed summary captures their exploration of medieval politics, architectural flaws, and the possible myth surrounding this historical event.

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Historical Context: Thuringia in 1184 CE

The story unfolds in Thuringia, a central region in modern-day Germany, during the high Middle Ages. In 1184 CE, Thuringia was a significant hub of power, governed by influential figures whose disputes would inadvertently lead to disaster.

Chuck introduces the setting:

"We're going to go all the way back to 1184 CE, nearly a thousand years ago... in Thuringia, which is a state that's still around in Germany, almost smack dab in the center of modern-day Germany." ([00:24])

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The Dispute Between Ludwig III and Conrad of Wittelsbach

At the heart of the tale is a conflict between two powerful men: Ludwig III, the Landgrave (Prince) of Thuringia, and Conrad of Wittelsbach, the Archbishop of Mainz. The exact cause of their dispute remains lost to history, but its ramifications were profound.

Chuck elaborates:

"We don't know exactly why... what matters is during this time, this is the high Middle Ages... the King of Germany... was on a campaign to lobby different rulers... to change the line of succession for the Holy Roman Emperor." ([01:24])

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King Einrich’s Succession Plan

King Einrich the 6th, who would later become the Holy Roman Emperor, sought to alter the succession rules to prioritize bloodlines over papal coronation. This ambitious plan aimed to consolidate his power by reducing the Pope's influence in imperial affairs. Despite significant resistance, Einrich managed to garner substantial support across the kingdom, with Thuringia being one of the last strongholds of dissent.

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The Hoftag and the Erfurt Latrine Layout

To address the lingering opposition in Thuringia, Einrich seized the opportunity presented by the dispute between Ludwig and Conrad. In July 1184, he convened a Hoftag—an informal assembly—in the capital city of Erfurt at the Petersburg Citadel, a fortress established approximately 15 years earlier.

Chuck notes:

"A Hoftag is just like an assembly, like an informal assembly, not a formal meeting... it was held at Petersburg Citadel, which was a fortress there in Erfurt, still there today." ([03:54])

The layout of the citadel, particularly its latrine design, played a pivotal role in the ensuing disaster. Medieval latrines were typically grimy, with wooden seats over cesspools that required annual cleaning. The Petersburg Citadel's latrine was located in the basement, directly beneath the floor where the Hoftag was held.

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The Latrine Disaster

During the Hoftag, the floor above the latrine collapsed, plunging hundreds of attendees into the cesspool below. While historical records mention 60 to 100 fatalities, it's believed that the actual death toll was significantly higher due to the presence of numerous nobles and their entourages.

Chuck describes the chaos:

"The floor actually collapsed and sent a lot of people into the cesspool below. They say that between 60 and 100 people died... ostensibly hundreds of people died from falling into the cesspool." ([10:19])

Victims likely drowned or were suffocated under the weight of those trying desperately to escape the filthy water. Additionally, the oppressive stench, primarily from ammonia, could have caused respiratory failures, as noted by one source:

"Someone may have died from stench... respiratory arrest and died." ([12:24])

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Survival of the Major Players

Remarkably, the primary figures involved in the dispute—Heinrich (Einrich), Conrad, and Ludwig—survived the catastrophe. Their survival is attributed to sheer luck, with records indicating that they either avoided the compromised alcoves or were elsewhere during the collapse.

Chuck reflects on their survival:

"What's astounding is that all three of the major players... all survived. That's... just dumb luck, basically." ([13:09])

Heinrich's survival had profound historical implications, as he later became the Holy Roman Emperor and wielded extensive influence across Europe.

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Historical Significance of the Event

Heinrich's rise to power following the disaster reshaped the political landscape of Europe. His expanded influence included becoming the King of Burgundy, Italy, and Sicily, as well as exerting control over England by holding Richard the Lionheart hostage.

Chuck highlights Heinrich's achievements:

"He went on to become Holy Roman Emperor... he became the king of Burgundy, Italy, and Sicily... overlord of England because he captured Richard I hostage." ([14:13])

This power consolidation had lasting effects on the feudal dynamics and political alliances of the time.

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Questioning the Historicity: Possible Hoax

Despite the captivating narrative, doubts about the veracity of the Erfurt Latrine Disaster persist. Chuck points out the absence of mentions on the Petersburg Citadel's official records and notes the story's questionable origins.

Chuck muses:

"If it's made up, it has become fact so thoroughly... historians write about this kind of thing... we just kind of stopped talking about the disaster." ([15:09])

Further investigation revealed that the tale might have originated from a fictional account by a seven-year-old German in 2018, casting serious doubts on its authenticity.

Chuck concludes:

"Good story. It was written by a seven-year-old German, apparently... Short Stuff is out." ([15:22])

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Conclusion

The Short Stuff episode on the Erfurt Latrine Disaster presents a fascinating blend of medieval politics, architectural mishaps, and historical intrigue. While the story encapsulates the perilous nature of medieval assemblies and the profound impact of seemingly minor events, its dubious origins invite listeners to question the thin line between history and myth. Whether fact or fiction, the tale serves as a compelling reminder of the complexities and uncertainties inherent in historical narratives.

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Notable Quotes:

• Chuck on the latrine design:

  "In this particular Petersburg citadel, it didn't work like that at all... the latrine was in the basement... the floor actually collapsed and sent a lot of people into the cesspool below." ([10:19])

• Chuck on Heinrich's influence:

  "He went on to become Holy Roman Emperor... overlord of England because he captured Richard I hostage." ([14:13])

• Chuck on the possible hoax:

  "Good story. It was written by a seven-year-old German, apparently... we just kind of stopped talking about the disaster." ([15:22])

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This episode underscores the importance of scrutinizing historical sources and remains a testament to the enduring fascination with medieval lore and its tales of triumph and tragedy.

Transcript

[Chuck]

Hey, come on in.

[Josh]

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[Chuck]

Thanks so much. See you soon.

[Josh]

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[Chuck]

Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh. And Chuck's here too. Jerry's here too. Dave's not. That's okay. Cause Jerry's here covering for him. And this is stuff you should know. Short Stuff.

That's right. And we're gonna issue a trigger warning on this one. You see there in the title the words latrine disaster. So I don't think we need to over explain what's coming.

No. If you're easily grossed out, then be careful with this. When I was researching and writing this, I noticed that my stomach was actually upset. It's. So, was it really places? Yeah. And I. I'm not easily. I have a fairly iron stomach when it comes to stuff, and this one got me a little bit. So. But let's start at the start. We're going to go all the way back to 1184 CE, nearly a thousand years ago. And we're going to go to. Is it Thuringia?

I guess I'd never heard of that word, but that's probably right.

So it's a state that's still around in Germany, almost smack dab in the center of modern day Germany. And In Thuringia, in 1184, there was a dispute. The reason for the dispute is lost to history, but we know that it was between Ludwig iii, who was Landgrave, AKA Prince of Thuringia, so he's a very powerful person in the region. And the other guy, the other disputant was Conrad of Wittelsbach, who was at the time the Archbishop of Mainz, who was also a very powerful person in the region.

That's right. And like you said, we don't know exactly why. And frankly, it doesn't matter as far as this story goes. What matters is during this time, this is the high Middle Ages, there was the King of Germany, Einrich the. What is that? 6th. He would eventually become the Holy Roman Emperor. He knew this was coming. So he was on a sort of campaign to lobby different rulers in various lands to say, hey, let's change the line of succession for the Holy Roman Emperor to where Bloodline is the key, instead of just being crowned by the Pope, because I'm in that bloodline. And so he was trying to just get people on board with this plan is kind of the backdrop there.

Yeah. And that would have taken a huge amount of power from the Pope. So it was a pretty big deal. And surprisingly, he was fairly successful at raising support from it around the kingdom. But there were some holdouts still, and a lot of them were concentrated in the Thuringia area. So when he heard about this dispute between Ludwig and Conrad, he saw an opportunity to basically show up and act fairly kingly and mediate and hopefully resolve the dispute. So he would be killing two birds with one stone by showing up in the town of Erfurt, which is the capital of Thuringia, which he did in July of 1184. And he convened what's called a Hoftag. I'm just killing it with the German pronunciations today, if I do say so myself.

I may just go to have a nap. You're doing so great.

Thanks.

So a Hofstad is just like a assembly, like an informal assembly, not a formal meeting. And there were a lot of the local rulers. Some of them came because they were told to because of this dispute. Some were just like, hey, the King's going to be there. Maybe I can get some face time. Which is exactly what he wanted. And it was held very Keeley.

Sure, it works.

There's another word. I just can't find it again. Morning recording importantly. Sure, it was held at Petersburg Citadel, which was a fortress there in Erfurt, still there today. It was about 15 years old at that time. And even more key to this is the latrine layout. And maybe we'll take a little break and talk about that layout right after this. Hey, order up.

[Josh]

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[Chuck]

So, Chuck, now's the point where we talk about medieval latrine design, which I know way more about today than I did just a couple days ago.

Good band name. Yeah, sort of. I mean, it's actually a terrible band name, but a band name.

Right, A band name. Well put.

Yeah.

So around during the medieval era, especially this time in the high middle ages, which is what we're talking about today, there are a bunch of different latrine designs. And probably some of the fanciest were latrines where the actual restroom where you relieved yourself was essentially a little alcove just off of, like, a hallway or just very importantly, off of the banquet room, because it was considered rude at the time, at least in parts of Germany, to excuse yourself from the table during a dinner. The problem was these dinners were really, really long. And so the solution was to just put the latrines right by the table so that you could continue on with your conversation while you were relieving yourself in this doorless restroom. That was the norm. Not excusing yourself from the table and going to use a bathroom way far away from the table.

Yeah, exactly. The toilet seats sort of what you might imagine from a latrine. It was wooden. There was a hole cut in the center. They did have a masonry basin that would direct the stuff downward. And, you know, they would wipe their butts with hay or grass or moss or something like that.

Moss would be nice.

Moss would be okay. Like a nice green moss.

A big clump of it.

Yeah. But suffice to say, these rooms were disgusting and smelly. The ammonia could get so bad sometimes they would hang their clothes near there because they thought they may be right about this. That ammonia could kill mite.

Yeah. Just the smell.

Yeah. So hang your clothes up near there. And what would happen if you look at the outside of a castle? A lot of times these restrooms were projected outward from the wall itself a little bit. There was a hole in the bottom, and the waste just dropped out of that.

Just trickled down the sides of the castle, the walls of it. And I guess it depends on how far the alcove was projected off of the castle walls. But I would guess without these tubes that later evolved to kind of deposit it more cleanly toward the ground, especially in a wind, that waste would just kind of trickle down the castle walls, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah. And it would go maybe just be washed away to whatever water is nearby. If you were unlucky, you might have a moat full of that. You did mention tubes that eventually, in places like France, they would actually have, like, plumbing piping on the outside of the walls to make it just a little neater. But then they found out, hey, people can climb up these pipes to gain access to the castle. So those aren't Good.

Yeah. In 1203, there was a siege of Chateau Gaillard, and the invaders actually climbed up the sewage pipes into the castle to gain access. Do you know how badly you want to get into a place to climb up a medieval waste pipe through the latrine?

Well, the waste is at least on the inside of the pipe.

Right. I think that you had to climb up the inside of the pipe to get into the castle.

Oh, I thought that I pictured it as like a pipe running down the outside of the castle that they would just climb up.

Yes. But eventually all you're doing is hanging out on the outside wall of the castle. Yeah. I hadn't actually considered your interpretation. And it's possible. That's right. My mind just immediately went to the idea that they had to tunnel up through the inside of the pipe.

Oh, like Andy Dufresne and Shawshank Redemption.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is probably. I'm sure Stephen King was inspired by the Chateau Gillard story.

That's right. All right. So none of that really matters, because all that matters is that's how it worked in some places. But in this particular Petersburg citadel, it didn't work like that at all. It worked like this. There was latrine, and you did your poo poo and your pee pee, and it just went right under the floor into a disgusting cesspool that would maybe be cleaned out once a year by some very unfortunate servants.

Yeah. Can you imagine? Like, you'd have to get in there with buckets and rakes and have to clean it out. Because this kind of cesspool, that would be like just a pit in the basement, they usually had some, like, slits in the top between, you know, the foundation of the. Or in the foundation of the castle so that they could only get so full before they kind of overflowed. But that means that there was always some in there that you had to kind of clean out. And I just can't imagine doing that because it turns out that in the Petersburg Citadel, the latrine was in the basement. So the floor above the latrine, we would guess the first floor, that's where the hoftag was held. And even though the Petersburg Citadel was built just like 15 years before, there were so many people, not just nobles, but all of the attendees and advisors that each noble brought with them, that the floor actually collapsed and sent a lot of people into the cesspool below.

Yeah, I mean, they say that between 60 and 100 people died. So, I mean, what percentage of that was of the total people? Like, was it hundreds and hundreds of people in there, or did most of them die?

So I have the impression that a significant portion, I'm just guessing here, a significant portion died because 60 to 100 people. Like you said, that was just the nobles whose deaths were recorded. Remember, each noble had multiple people with him. So, yeah, ostensibly hundreds of people died from falling into the cesspool. And one of the main ways they would have died is from drowning, probably being held under by other people climbing over them to try to get out of the cesspool. And honestly, you can't really blame those people for reacting like that.

No, you're trying to get out of there. You're stepping on the nobleman next to you's head to get out of there.

On his Burger King crown.

Yeah, exactly. There was one source you found that said someone may have died from stench, and that may have been like an ammonia death. If the ammonia level was higher than I think you found, 5,000 parts per million, they could have suffered from a respiratory arrest and died.

Yeah, and that's a significant amount. I think at 0.2 parts per million, humans can start to detect it by smelling. So you can imagine how crazy 5000 parts per million would be. But, I mean, if they're using ammonia in the actual restrooms above to kill mites, who knows? It's entirely possible that some people did die like that.

But, my friend, what happened with the HOF tag? Did it kill all of our major players?

No. What's astounding is that all three of the major players, Heinrich, Conrad, and Ludwig, all survived. That's.

I mean, it's just dumb luck, basically. I think Heinrich and Conrad had stepped into an alcove that wasn't on that floor that collapsed. And I don't think anyone knew where Ludwig was at the time. At least it's not recorded in history. But we know Ludwig survived Yeah.

His death was recorded six years after the Erfurt latrine disaster. So somehow he survived, but we know he survived. And the fact that Heinrich didn't die is considered by historians who talk about this sort of thing as a world changing event, because like we said, he went on to become Holy Roman Emperor. He also became, and this is a hat tip to our friends at Historic mysteries, who I got this from. He went on to become the king of Burgundy, Italy and Sicily. He became feudal overlord of the kings of England, Lesser Armenia and Cyprus, and tributary lord of North African princes.

Geez. Yeah, he got around.

Yeah. And he became Overlord of England because he captured or held Richard I hostage. And that's Richard the Lionheart from the Robin Hood myths. And as ransom he said, I'll let you go, but you have to give me control over your kingdom in England. And Richard I reluctantly agreed.

Richard the first should have said, man, you almost died in a pool of poop.

That's right. I don't want to hear it from you.

What's remarkable to me is that if you go to the Petersburg Citadel website, they do not say anything about this amazing, amazing, though gross, amazing story.

Yeah. The other thing that's a little hinky about it is that I could not for the life of me find even a reference to the name of a primary source for this. So I have no idea where it came from. If it's made up, it has become fact so thoroughly that again, historians write about this kind of thing like everyone talks about it from, you know, BBC History Extra to 92.3 Rock radio station's website for some reason.

Wow. Well, maybe one day we'll do a follow up called the Latrine Disaster Hoax.

Maybe. Maybe we'll find out one day.

Good story. It was written by a seven year old German, apparently.

That's right. In 2018. Yeah, let's see. That's it. We just kind of stopped talking about the disaster, which means Short Stuff is out.

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