Chuck (2:48)

This would. That wouldn't be the central premise of the Short Stuff.

Josh (2:53)

I don't know, man. This is. This is brain breaking. This is like economics, quantum physics, and jackhammers all put together.

Chuck (3:01)

Well, the first sort of definition, I think, example wise, is the Maltese Falcon is kind of always. If you. If you look up anything about the MacGuffin, they'll usually kind of point to the Maltese Falcon film as one of the best examples. It was a novel and then later a movie where Humphrey Bogart played Sam spade, and the MacGuffin is the Maltese Falcon. It's this statuette of a bird in the movie, but it's really not about that Maltese Falcon. The object. It's about what happens to try and get a hold of this thing, basically.

Josh (3:40)

Okay, okay, I. Okay, so this is where the. This is where I don't get it. So the. There's definitions out there from screenwriters who say the. The Maltese Falcon is the point. This is the object that does everything in the movie. All of the actions are based on getting their hands on the Maltese Falcon. There would be no plot whatsoever if the Maltese Falcon didn't exist. Ergo, that's what a MacGuffin is. It's the thing that moves the entire movie. Yeah, right. The other definition is no, I mean, it causes some action, and as far as the characters are concerned, it's the most important thing, but it actually isn't all that important in the overall plot. I get the first definition of MacGuffin quite clearly, but this other definition I cannot get, because every time I say, okay, well, then let me try to figure out what is an example of a MacGuffin there, I usually come up short, and it ends up basically falling into the first definition instead.

Chuck (4:45)

I don't see the difference, much of a difference between the two definitions.

Josh (4:50)

I know there's not much difference, but the idea that it's irrelevant or the most important part of the entire plot, that's. That's a difference for sure.

Chuck (5:01)

Okay. But ultimately, the Maltese Falcon itself isn't like. And the cure for cancer is inside, and we can save the main character. You know what I mean?

Josh (5:10)

Okay, I'm gonna go with your take on this because I'm not the one who had a movie podcast.

Chuck (5:16)

So a good example of the second one, and we're gonna go over some more famous examples too at the end. But in Raiders of the Lost Ark, at the beginning, that little Gold head statue that he gets. If you'd never seen that movie before, you know, you saw it for the first time, you might think, like, oh, this object that he's recovering is like, super central to the plot, perhaps. And it's not at all. So that's just sort of the first MacGuffin in that movie. They're usually introduced in Act 1. Although George Lucas has come out and said that he thinks the actual Ark of the Covenant is also a MacGuffin.

Josh (5:54)

So. Yeah, you sent that. And I don't get that. Then that's the thing that motivates everyone's action. It's the most important thing in the entire movie. How is that irrelevant?

Chuck (6:07)

Well, I mean, because, I guess because in the end, they just go stick it in a box and put it in a warehouse.

Josh (6:16)

Okay, so then let me ask you this. You referenced, like, the Maltese Falcon having the cure for cancer. If the point of getting the Ark of the Covenant was to open it up and just end all of the ills of the world and then they did that at the end, would that mean it's not the MacGuffin then? Or a MacGuffin?

Chuck (6:38)

I don't know. Because I don't think that was the driving point of them trying to find the Ark. Like, that was a byproduct of it.

Josh (6:47)

If it had been though, oh, well,

Chuck (6:49)

geez, I don't know. Yeah, that movie's so ingrained, it's hard to sort of reframe it.

Josh (6:54)

Okay, I say we take a break. We'll regroup, take a couple film classes and come back.

Chuck (7:01)

That sounds great.

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Josh (9:45)

Okay, Chuck, I've got another. Another attempt here. This one makes a little more sense to me. In the Murder of Roger Ackroyd, the Agatha Christie book. Have you ever seen it? It's really good. No, it's essentially what Knives out, the first one, is based on.

Chuck (10:01)

Oh, okay.

Josh (10:02)

But in there, the character, the main character, the titular character, Roger Ackroyd, he is murdered. And he was murdered so the murderer could get their hands on a blackmail letter. Okay, the blackmail letter with the name of the blackmailer. That's important to the characters, but it's not really the point of the overall plot. The point of the overall plot is Hercule Poirot's investigation to uncover who murdered Roger Ackroyd. So in that sense, that blackmailer letter is the MacGuffin. How about that one?

Chuck (10:40)

Yeah. I mean, it seems like a MacGuffin to me.

Josh (10:42)

Okay, we're on the trail. So I think my problem is this, Chuck. It's not that I can't understand what a MacGuffin is. It's that I can't understand why some things that are MacGuffins are called MacGuffins, and other things that aren't considered MacGuffins aren't MacGuffins. That's my big problem here. I'm just going to shut up about it from now on, but I just want to make sure I go on the record saying that.

Chuck (11:05)

All right, well, it all comes. It came pre Hitchcock, but Hitchcock is the one that sort of made it famous, I guess he used it in a lot of his movies, for sure. And he had a couple of different explanations over the years. One is that it was something vitally important to the characters, but of no importance to me, the narrator. Another one I saw him say was, it's the thing that the spies are after, but the audience doesn't care about. Which was where he and George Lucas diverged. Because George Lucas, apparently R2D2 was a MacGuffin in Star Wars. He said, I think the audience should care. And specifically, if the audience doesn't care as much about R2 as Luke does and finding him, then like, the emotional tilt will be off.

Josh (11:52)

Yeah, for sure. But Hitchcock was able to pull off what he was saying in that. Say, like the microfilm or whatever. You don't really care if the bad guys get it or Cary Grant gets it. You want to make sure that Cary Grant. And was it Grace Kelly who is in north by Northwest? You just want to make sure that they're both okay. You don't care about the microfilm.

Chuck (12:16)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. The movie Psycho is one of the classic examples because, you know, everyone remembers the Bates Motel. But I think if you haven't seen the movie in a while, if you're not a student of that film, you may forget that whole first part in the first act where Janet Leigh, the reason she goes to the Bates Motel is cause she's on the run after stealing 40 grand from her employer. And that 40 grand, that's the MacGuffin, it never comes up again.

Josh (12:46)

No, but it's the thing that initially motivates the character's actions. It gets her to flee. She's on the lam. That takes her to the Bates Motel, and then the actual plot begins.

Chuck (12:57)

Yeah, but what about the word itself?

Josh (13:01)

Well, you sent something, and I've read this 10 times, and I still don't get how it explains what a MacGuffin is. So I think I'll leave it to you. But it's what. It's the one time Hitchcock tried to explain the origin of MacGuffin or what it is. I think.

Chuck (13:15)

Yeah, he credits a writer that he worked with, named. A Scottish guy named Angus McPhail. And one of the theories is that it just comes from the root word guff, which is a word that means, like, something said that's trivial or meaningless. So that. That certainly has a little bit of weight. But another story is that apparently McPhail had told this story to Hitchcock where he said two Scottish men are Riding on a train, one man asks the other about the contents of a package on the overhead luggage rack. He said, it's a MacGuffin, a device for hunting tigers in Scotland. And the other guy said, but there are no tigers in Scotland. And he says, well, then I guess it's not a MacGuffin.

Josh (13:57)

You still do not get it.

Chuck (13:59)

Well, I mean, to me, that just means it's sort of like that illustrates its meaninglessness.

Josh (14:07)

Okay, okay, we'll go with that.

Chuck (14:10)

I mean, I don't see what else it could mean.

Josh (14:13)

I don't either. I don't see what it can mean in any case. Like, it's like. Yeah, I don't know. Who knows? I think your interpretation's right. I can kind of sink my teeth into the history of this because you said that it predates Hitchcock, although he popularized it apparently, decades before that. This was TV tropes. Who pointed this out. There was a silent film actress named Pearl White, and in the kind of action cliffhanger serials that she started, they were always chasing after some, like, roll of film or some treasure or something like that. And she called them weenies, but they were essentially what she was saying. They were the plot devices that was driving all of the characters actions.

Chuck (14:55)

I like Weenie.

Josh (14:57)

I like Weenie, too.

Chuck (14:58)

Yeah, that's pretty good.

Josh (14:59)

Bring that back.

Chuck (15:00)

My favorite MacGuffin, I think, is probably from Escape from New York. Oh, yeah, the cassette tape.

Josh (15:09)

Yeah, that's a good one.

Chuck (15:10)

Yeah, there's a cassette tape of Donald Pleasance as the President, and, you know, he's trapped on the prison island of New York, and Snake Plissken is tasked with going to get him and crucially, that cassette tape back because it's some big, important speech to the world, and you don't even hear it at the end because, well, I don't want to spoil it, but you never end up hearing what's even on that cassette tape. So that's sort of a classic MacGuffin.

Josh (15:36)

Similarly, another John Carpenter movie that had a great MacGuffin was the Thing with Wilford Brimley being the MacGuffin. From my understanding of MacGuffins, yeah, that's a great movie. You said R2 is the MacGuffin in Star Wars Episode 4. I think that's awesome. I had never thought about that before. But he's the droid that they're after because he has the plans for the Death Star. Another one that comes to mind is that mysterious briefcase that belonged to Marcellus Wallace that Vincent and Jules go retrieve in Pulp fiction.

Chuck (16:11)

Yeah. Classic MacGuffin. And that one is. I mean, I love Pulp Fiction, but that one definitely seems like Tarantino really wanted to write in a classic MacGuffin, I think.

Josh (16:20)

Yeah. And he did.

Chuck (16:22)

Yeah.

Josh (16:22)

And they also. They never say what was in the briefcase, and it just kind of falls away from the plot eventually, too.

Chuck (16:29)

Yeah, for sure. I think I have a bad taste in my mouth about Tarantino in general lately.

Josh (16:34)

Yeah. What is it about, like, men who have power and fame and reach, like, their 50s and just completely just jerk out?

Chuck (16:42)

I don't know.

Josh (16:44)

I don't get it.

Chuck (16:46)

Well, my time is coming, I guess.

Josh (16:48)

No, I think you've passed the point.

Chuck (16:51)

Okay, so once you hit 54, 55, then you're safe.

Josh (16:54)

Yeah. I think you made it through the great filter of becoming a jerk.

Chuck (16:57)

All right, well, your time's coming then.

Josh (16:59)

I know. I'm really having to. Hang on. You'll be all right. I'm going to follow all of your examples, including your definition of MacGuffin. And I think we should stop talking about MacGuffins now. All right.

Chuck (17:09)

And, hey, we'll say this, Write in, and we'd love to hear from film students and film cinephiles and see if you guys can give us a clearer definition.

Josh (17:19)

That's a great call, Chuck. Great call. Short Stuff is out.

Podcast Host / Advertiser (17:26)

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