Short Stuff: Pies

Summary

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Stuff You Should Know: Short Stuff - Pies

Hosts: Josh & Chuck
Release Date: November 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this fun, fast-paced "Short Stuff" episode, Josh and Chuck take listeners on a whirlwind tour through the rich, quirky history of pie. From ancient Egyptian galettes to English “coffyns” and modern American staples like pumpkin and key lime, they explore how pie evolved across cultures and centuries. The duo relishes both savory and sweet pies, shares humorous asides, and dispels some “as American as apple pie” myths along the way.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Ancient Beginnings of Pie (01:23–03:16)

• Early Pies:

  • Pie has existed for thousands of years, dating back to ancient Egypt—about 8,000 years ago—with early versions like galettes made from grains and sweetened with honey, baked over coals.
    • Josh: “But pie has been around for way before pilot Tompkins. Thousands of years.” (01:43)
  • The Greeks borrowed the concept about 5,000 years later, replacing honey with meats, and crucially developed pastry dough similar to today’s versions.
    • Chuck: “They did something that I think is a historic crime—they replaced sweet stuff like honey with meats.” (02:28)

• Roman & European Spread:

  • Romans spread pies to Europe where the tradition flourished, and regional variants emerged across continents (e.g., sambusa in Ethiopia, empanadas in Spain & Latin America, tortiller in Quebec, spanakopita in Greece, Zwebelkuchen in Germany).

Pies Across Cultures (03:16–04:32)

• Discussion of international pies illustrates the universal appeal and adaptability of pies, both sweet and savory.
• Humorous personal notes on British pork pies and “pork pie hats.”

Medieval & Victorian English Pies (04:32–06:13)

• Medieval “PyEs” and Coffins:

  • English pies were spelled “pye” and included everything—even bones, which acted as “handles” for eating.
  • Sometimes, game birds’ legs would protrude from the pies.
    • Chuck: “Not just the bones, the legs of, like, a game bird, like a pheasant would be sticking out and hanging over the side of the pie.” (04:46)
  • The crust (or “coffin”) was often considered inedible by the rich and eaten only by the poor.

• Pies as Spectacle:

  • In England, it was customary at royal feasts to bake massive pies filled with live birds—or even people or string ensembles for dramatic effect.
    • Chuck: “That’s where you know that rhyme—Sing a song of sixpence where they talk about four and 20 blackbirds baked into a pie…” (06:40)
    • Josh: “You gotta have a big pie to put a couple dozen blackbirds in there!” (07:38)
  • These pies were constructed empty, and the “contents” added after baking.

Pie Recipes & The Tart Distinction (06:13–06:40)

• First pie recipes in European cookbooks date as far back as the 1300s.
• Tarts are pies without tops and generally have edible, more palatable pastry crusts.

Famous Pies and Their Origins

Pumpkin Pie (11:05–12:43)

• Pumpkin as an indigenous American food, but pies themselves were first referenced in a French cookbook (1651) before appearing in the first American cookbook, “American Cookery” by Amelia Simmons (1796).
  • Josh: “In 1796, it was in the very first American cookbook… called American Cookery by an American Orphan.” (12:20)
  • Originally, pumpkins as pie “crusts” were baked with honey and spices over coals.

Apple Pie & The American Myth (12:43–14:20)

• Apple pie’s “all-American” status is a myth—apples are native to Asia, and the Dutch had mastered apple pies centuries before they reached America.
  • Chuck: “Apple pie seems pretty American. That’s why the French thing was so puzzling. But apple pie, 100% American. Like, don’t even come at me with anything else.” (12:43)
  • Josh: “Well, buddy, apples don’t come from America. They’re native to Asia.” (12:55)
• The phrase “as American as apple pie” first appeared in 1928—later popularized by WWII GIs.

Cherry Pie (14:23–15:18)

• Possibly originated for or by Queen Elizabeth I (16th century); still a staple pie today.
• Personal preferences shared—Josh prefers key lime and apple over cherry, but won’t turn a cherry pie down, especially served warm.

Boston Cream Pie (15:20–16:17)

• Actually a cake, not a pie—derived from “Washington Pie,” a cake baked in a pie shell. Named for its presentation, not its construction.
• Invented for the Parker House Hotel’s opening in Boston, 1856.
  • Josh: “It was invented for the opening, the grand opening of the Parker House Hotel in 1856.” (16:06)
• Spawns a humorous aside on Parker House rolls.

Key Lime Pie (17:09–19:05)

• State pie of Florida; beloved by both hosts.
  • Chuck: “This is the pride of Florida. If you’ve never had a slice of key lime pie, you’re cheating yourself.” (17:07)
• Origin stories: local Key West “Aunt Sally” or possibly derived from Borden’s “Magic Lemon Cream Pie” (1930s).
  • Josh: “That’s one story. Another is that they came later than that…from a recipe for Borden condensed milk.” (18:35)
• The hosts bond over personal pie memories—lemon icebox pie, Ready Whip vs. meringue.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On pies’ ancient roots:
  Josh: “But pie has been around for way before pilot Tompkins. Thousands of years.” (01:43)

• On the evolution of pie filling:
  Chuck: “…the Greeks… did something that I think is a historic crime. They replaced sweet stuff like honey with meats.” (02:28)

• English pie spectacle:
  Chuck: “That’s where you know that rhyme. Sing a song of sixpence where they talk about four and 20 blackbirds baked into a pie…you would serve a pie to the king and they would cut it open and all these beautiful birds would fly out.” (06:40)

• Apple pie’s American myth:
  Josh: “Well, buddy, apples don’t come from America. They’re native to Asia." (12:55)
  Chuck: “So how does the apple pie get associated with America? …Apparently, World War II, there was a catchphrase for the GIs... 'Well, sir, for mom and apple pie, of course.'” (13:58)

• Pie preferences:
  Josh: “It’s one of my top two pies for me...pecan pie, Dutch apple and key lime.” (17:39)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Ancient Pie Origins: 01:23–03:16
• International Pie Variations: 03:16–04:32
• Medieval English Pies & Pie “Coffins”: 04:32–06:13
• Pie Spectacles & Blackbird Pies: 06:40–08:18
• Famous American Pies: 11:05–19:42
  • Pumpkin Pie: 11:05–12:43
  • Apple Pie: 12:43–14:20
  • Cherry Pie: 14:23–15:18
  • Boston Cream Pie: 15:20–16:17
  • Key Lime Pie: 17:09–19:05
• Final Pie Preferences, Personal Highlights: 17:09–19:42

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Style & Tone

Lively, conversational, peppered with personal anecdotes and playful asides. Josh and Chuck keep things approachable and humorous, using gentle teasing and quick detours—very much reminiscent of friends chatting over coffee, or, fittingly, a good slice of pie.

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Summary:
Josh and Chuck deliver a delightful, comprehensive rundown of pie’s ancient roots, international spread, and iconic American variations—all with their hallmark warmth and wit. The episode not only serves up fun facts and quirky stories, but also celebrates pies as delicious, unifying foods across time and cultures. Perfect listening for history buffs, foodies, or anyone just craving a new appreciation for dessert.

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Transcript

[Josh]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Chuck]

The universe is full of mysteries. Black holes, quantum physics, galaxies. On TikTok, millions of people are learning more about the universe around them every day. Scientists break down complex theories, demonstrate experiments, and connect dots between the cosmos and our daily lives. One scroll might reveal the concepts on the fabric of spacetime. The the next, an optical illusion. It's discovery on a massive scale where millions learn something new every day. Hey, and welcome to the Short stuff. It's delicious short stuff. I'm Josh. There's Chuck. Jerry's not here. Dave's not here, but a bunch of pie talk is here. So strap in, everybody. Actually, I should say unbuckle everybody.

[Josh]

That's right, unbuckle the top button or that belt loop, because this made me want to eat pie. I love pie. I think we talked a little bit about pie in our cake episode, about the merits of pie. And of course, there's also the great legendary, I dare say, Paul F. Tompkins bit on cake versus pie.

[Chuck]

Oh, I'm not sure about that one.

[Josh]

Yeah, it's from way back in the day. It's a good bit. But pie has been around for way before pilot Tompkins. Thousands of years. But it's only in the last couple few hundred years that it's like what we kind of know as pie. But they had it 8,000 years ago in Egypt, if you count kind of a messy, semi sweet, you know, rustic smorgasbord of grains.

[Chuck]

Sure. Called galettes. Right.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

And you said 8,000 years ago. That's not that long after we started domesticating crops, which means that pies were one of the first things we started making when we created agriculture.

[Josh]

Yeah. And of course, they used honey as the sweetener back then. And they'd bake it over some hot coals.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And then the Greeks ganked That, didn't they?

[Chuck]

They did about 5,000 years later. They loved taking stuff from the Egyptians and they carried on with galettes. They did something that I think is a historic crime. They replaced sweet stuff like honey with meats. I like a good meat pie, but I feel like we had not gotten into sweet pies enough to be boring from that yet. One of the other things the Greeks did, though, was they created pastry dough like we would think of pastry dough today, essentially.

[Josh]

Yeah. So big leap forward there, dough wise. The Romans, of course, come along next, and they didn't add a whole lot to the technique or tradition. What they did was they brought it to Europe and that's where it really flourished, was when it was in the hands of the Europeans.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Not just Europe, but if you look back at dishes from around the world, you're like, oh, that's pie. That's pie. That's pie. There's something called sambusa in Ethiopia, which is a ham pie. There's obviously empanadas from Spain and then Latin America. Spanakopita in Greece. I've not heard of the Zwebelkuchen, but I would love to try it. It's a savory and sweet pie from Germany.

[Josh]

Schweibelkuchen.

[Chuck]

Yes. Yeah. And then there's tortiller from Quebec, which also sounds pretty great. That's a savory meat pie. Like I say, I like meat pies. Got no problem with meat pies.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

I think that we just. We need both, I guess.

[Josh]

Yeah, agreed. I mean, when I hear the word pie, I immediately think of, like, a sweet dessert pie. But I love a Jamaican hand pie. Or I say empanada. I guess it is empanada, isn't it?

[Chuck]

Yeah, empanada. I couldn't find the end with the tilde on the insert thing on word, so I gotcha. And one other thing, Chuck. Do you remember when we were in the UK on tour and I got hooked on pork pies?

[Josh]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Chuck]

Oh, my God, those are so good.

[Josh]

And I got hooked on pork pie hats.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I know you did. It was great. I tried to eat that one right off my head.

[Josh]

The English speaking of the English, that's where things really got interesting. Because they were like, man, throw some fish in that thing. Throw any kind of meat in you want. We'll spell it P Y, E. And we'll also bake those bones in there as little handles.

[Chuck]

Not just the bones, the legs of, like, a game bird, like a pheasant would be sticking out and hanging over the side of the pie.

[Josh]

Yeah. Just grab it by the leg.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Grab that pheasant like a rabbit.

[Josh]

I guess that's no different than just eating a chicken leg.

[Chuck]

It's a little different. I'm talking about, like, the feet here is what I understand.

[Josh]

Oh, okay.

[Chuck]

Like, the whole leg down to the toenails is what they left on toenails.

[Josh]

You ever seen a chicken toenail?

[Chuck]

I haven't looked that closely. I've just always assumed they were there.

[Josh]

They also called them coffins. Two F's and a Y. Again, they love those Y's instead of I's. And of course, that means box.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Because that's what they were making. There was, like, sturdy walls, a sturdy bottom crust over the top. And these were actually what the Greeks were basically making pies for, too. The point of the pie was to seal in the juices of, like, the savory mixture of meats and stuff, right? Yeah. It was a way to bake a bunch of stuff together and then serve it as one thing onto a table. That was the point of pies. They didn't care about pastries in medieval England. Like, the actual crust was considered inedible by the rich, but the lower classes would eat the pie crust when they had to. So they also made pies without tops whatsoever. Those are tarts. That's what they still call them today. Those, I think, were more pastry edible forward.

[Josh]

Yeah, I think you're right. If you're talking about recipes, they started appearing in Europe in cookbooks, like, way back in the 1300s. I think there was a German cookbook you dug up from 1553.

[Chuck]

I didn't actually look in the cookbook itself. I just saw a reference to it.

[Josh]

Oh, sure.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Sorry.

[Josh]

That's okay. But they were like, hey, you know what you do? You put a little hole in the middle of that pie in the lid, and you blow in it and puff that thing up and then seal it. And that thing looks great on a table.

[Chuck]

Yeah. But you will notice from that recipe, that means there's nothing inside. They were just baking the pie. An empty pie, essentially, is what they were making. And you would say, well, that's madness. What's the point of that? There's actually a trend in England, I think, from the 15th to maybe the 18th centuries, where you would present, like, at a royal dinner or something like that, an enormous pie that was filled with live things. So you would bake the pie pastry, and then put the live things in it before you served it. And so that's where you know that rhyme. Sing a song of sixpence where they talk about four and 20 blackbirds baked into a pie. Isn't that a pretty dish to serve before the king or whatever? Yeah, that's what they're talking about is this trend in Europe, in royal courts of Europe, where you would serve like a pie to the king and they would cut it open and all these beautiful birds would fly out. Or a string ensemble would stand up and start playing.

[Josh]

Yeah, like if you think you gotta have a big pie to put a couple of dozen blackbirds in there. You weren't kidding about the string ensemble. Like they would have a pie big enough. What I don't understand is how are they big? Are they not killing these people and birds? No, by baking them.

[Chuck]

They took the pie, pastry first, and then put the people in before they served it. That's why.

[Josh]

How does that work?

[Chuck]

You would take the pie, put it together, put the top on, put a hole in it, blow in it, close it up.

[Josh]

Yeah, but how did the people get in there?

[Chuck]

Oh, I'm sure there was like a little door cut into the side or something like that. But they weren't anywhere near the pie while it was in the oven.

[Josh]

Oh, the pie hatch. I wasn't thinking.

[Chuck]

The Pie Hole. Yeah, the Pie Hole. Remember that show, what was it called? Better no pushing up daisies. That the main protagonist had a pie shop called the Pie Hole. Oh, I've told you about it before. It's such a charming show, Chuck. You gotta see it.

[Josh]

All right.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

You got a long list for me though.

[Chuck]

So that one, move that one toward the top. It's just a very sweet, neat, cute little show.

[Josh]

All right, well, speaking of cute, we'll take a break and we'll come back and we'll talk about a few specific all time great pies right after this. Support for the show Today comes from public.com. you're thoughtful about where your money goes. You've got core holdings, some recurring crypto buys, maybe even a few strategic options plays on the side. The, the point is you're engaged with your investments and public gets that.

[Chuck]

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[Josh]

Lilly, A Medicine company. All right, we're back. We're going to mention 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 all time great pies. It is for us in real time. It's the week before Thanksgiving, couple of weeks before Thanksgiving.

[Chuck]

Hubba hubba.

[Josh]

So we got to talk about pumpkin pie, which was brought to the New World by the colonists on the Mayflower. But it's interesting because when they got here, Native Americans were like, hey, look at these things we got. They're called pumpkins. And one day they will invent spices to put with these that taste nothing like pumpkins. But you will totally associate that with pumpkin, right?

[Chuck]

And so, like, the first pumpkin pies were actually not pies at all. They used the pumpkin themselves as basically the pie crust, put in honey and spices and stuff like that and baked it over hot coals. Then they ate that. But the thing is, you still think of like, okay, well, eventually, like, it got figured out in the United States or the English colonies, right? No, that's not the case. Pumpkin pie actually got exported with the pumpkins in a couple of decades over to France. The first recipe that even mentions a pumpkin pie, called the Pompeian Piece, was published in a French cookbook by a French chef in 1651. And it wouldn't be another few decades, actually another century or so before it showed up in a recipe in an American cookbook.

[Josh]

That's right. In 1796. It was in the very first American cookbook, in fact, from Amelia Simmons, called American Cookery by an American Orphan. And yeah, that pumpkin pie was in there kind of like the one we know it it was kind of a pumpkin pudding, but that's not super unlike pumpkin pie.

[Chuck]

No, because you baked it in a pie shell. So if you ask me, that's pumpkin pie.

[Josh]

Agreed.

[Chuck]

So pumpkin pie seems pretty American. That's why the French thing was so puzzling. But apple pie, 100% American. Like, don't even come at me with anything else. Take it, Chuck.

[Josh]

Well, buddy, apples don't come from America. They're native to Asia. So they were brought over to the New World by the colonists. And I think we all know that the perfect apple pie is that Dutch apple pie. And they're the ones. They were the OGs a couple of years. Sorry, a couple of hundred years prior to those apples coming over from Asia. The Dutch had sort of mastered that apple pie. Man.

[Chuck]

I always assumed it was the 1970s when the Dutch finally made Dutch apple pie.

[Josh]

No.

[Chuck]

No. Okay. All right. So the Dutch had figured out apple pie centuries before it came to America. So how does the apple pie get associated with America? There's a saying over here, everybody, if you're not familiar, as American as apple pie. Apparently, that was first used in print in 1928 to describe first Lady Lou Hoover, Herbert Hoover's wife. Gal. They said that she's as American as apple pie. Okay, that's one way it got associated with it. Another one is that apple pie is as American as moms in baseball. Where did that come from, Chuck? Where did that come from?

[Josh]

Apparently, World War II, there was a catchphrase for the GIs there when they're like, why are you going off to fight this war? And they would say, well, sir, for mom and apple pie, of course.

[Chuck]

They say, get out there, boy.

[Josh]

That's right.

[Chuck]

Win it for us.

[Josh]

And if you think that helmet's gonna protect you, you got another thing coming.

[Chuck]

What else?

[Josh]

That was kind of dark.

[Chuck]

It got dark going from apple pie to that.

[Josh]

But, yeah, sure, we could talk cherry pie, briefly. Ch. Pie is not my favorite pie, but I'll opt for pumpkin or apple or certainly key lime, which we'll get to before cherry pie. But I'll eat a piece of cherry pie with some ice cream if you got it for me.

[Chuck]

Yeah, as long as it's not sour like a good cherry pie. In the vein of a good apple pie, I think is excellent stuff.

[Josh]

Yeah. And House of Pies in Los Feliz in Los Angeles, the neighborhood where I lived, had all kinds of great pies. But, like, I want, like, a warm cherry pie. I don't want, like, the cold one where that jelly has sort of, you know, I don't like it cold.

[Chuck]

No, that's what I'm saying. If you make it and serve it like you would a good piece of apple pie, it's good. I'm with you 100%.

[Josh]

Okay. But that one, apparently the first cherry pie was either created for Queen Elizabeth I in the 16th century or by her.

[Chuck]

Yeah, it's one of the oldest pies that is still around today, apparently. Yeah.

[Josh]

What's next?

[Chuck]

Boston cream pie is worth a mention. You might be like, that's not even a pie. That's basically a layer cake. You're right. But we wanted to explain where that came from.

[Josh]

I don't think I've ever had Boston cream pie.

[Chuck]

I hadn't either. I was like, okay, we gotta do Boston cream pie. And then I was like, oh, this is a little more interesting than I thought. Because it turns out Boston cream pie is a cake. It's not a pie in any sense whatsoever. The reason it's called Boston Cream Pie is, is because it's based on another recipe called Washington Pie. And Washington Pie was the same thing. It was a Boston cream pie cake baked in a pie crust. So a cake and a pie crust. And then eventually the Boston cream pie came along. They did away with the crust, but they kept the name pie, which is why Boston cream pie is called pie. Even though it's a cake.

[Josh]

That's right. And notably, it was invented for the opening, the grand opening of the Parker house Hotel in 1856. Which has got to be where Parker House rolls come from, right?

[Chuck]

I don't know. I've never heard of them before. But let's say. Yeah.

[Josh]

You've never heard of Parker House rolls.

[Chuck]

I've heard of cider House rules.

[Josh]

Parker House rolls are one of the best things in the world. You know them if you've seen them. And then, like, a lot of it's become trendy in recent years at like a. A nice restaurant will serve you Parker House rolls in like a little four baked in a four pack for the table.

[Chuck]

That sounds like King's Hawaiian kinda.

[Josh]

Well, they kind of are. They kind of look like that. King's Hawaiian, I think, is the Hawaiian sweet version of Parker House roll.

[Chuck]

I probably had those then. Yeah.

[Josh]

Yeah. Big, beautiful, flaky, like buttery with a little sea salt on top. Man, it's the best thing ever.

[Chuck]

Very nice.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

I've actually stayed in the Parker House. It's now an Omni hotel.

[Josh]

And they didn't throw a roll at your face when you Walked in.

[Chuck]

Not that I saw. No. Actually, one of the only times I was ever worried about getting Legionnaire's disease was when I stayed there. And then let's move on to key lime pie, because this is the pride of Florida. If you never had a slice of key lime pie, you're cheating yourself, essentially. Just get your hands on one.

[Josh]

It's one of my top two pies for me.

[Chuck]

Agreed.

[Josh]

Along with crumbly apple. Probably.

[Chuck]

I like that, too. The Dutch apple crumble style. That one.

[Josh]

Yeah. Pecan pie. Yeah, those are my top three. Pecan pie, Dutch apple and key lime.

[Chuck]

Okay, so key lime. One of the great things about it is, I mean, I don't want to say, like, if you walk into a 711 and buy a slice of key lime pie there, it's going to be as good as one that you get in the Florida Keys. But they're so similar to one another and there's a specific way to make it, then it's not that far off. You're still kind of treating yourself. So go out and get some key lime pie. You don't have to be a purist, but if you are a purist and you want to know where it comes from. Supposedly the local lore is that a woman only known as Aunt Sally made them in the late 19th century down in Key west at the Curry House, which was the estate of Florida's first millionaire, William Curry. So, you know, he was important and really good guy. But she came up with this as a recipe that she adapted from local Key west fishermen, that they had come up with it themselves.

[Josh]

Yeah, that's one story. Another is that they came later than that. And I think they were supposedly adapted from a recipe from New York for magic lemon cream pies that the Borden Condensed Milk Company put out in the 1930s. But some people say, no, it's actually the opposite. They got that magic lemon cream pie from the Key lime pie and kind of stole it. Even though, hats off to your Borden condensed milk, because that stuff is the best.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Again, I want to shout out the UBE condensed milk. It's not Borden. I don't remember who makes it, but, oh, my God, it's. Seriously, you'll never taste anything that has a better taste than that.

[Josh]

I'm going to move on to that for my family. My grandmother made. She called it lemon icebox pie.

[Chuck]

Oh, yeah, those are great. Yeah.

[Josh]

It's sort of the same thing as a key lime pie, but just with lemon in that. It doesn't have meringue like, why would you want to ruin a lemon pie by putting meringue on it?

[Chuck]

I don't know. I can go either way with that. Not my favorite. I'd rather replace it with Ready Whip, though.

[Josh]

Oh, well, now you're talking.

[Chuck]

Okay, everybody, I think it's pretty obvious that we are going to immediately go start eating pie after recording this. We hope you go enjoy some pie, too. And Short Stuff is out.

[Josh]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.