Some Interesting Curses

Summary

Stuff You Should Know – “Some Interesting Curses”

Podcast: Stuff You Should Know
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Date: June 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively and irreverent episode, Josh and Chuck explore the world of curses—from spring water in Vermont to Hollywood screenplays that doom their stars, ancient warlords, Chicago baseball, and Jackie Chan’s allegedly ill-fated endorsements. The hosts approach the topic with their signature mix of skepticism, humor, and anthropological curiosity, emphasizing that most curses are built on legend, coincidence, and lore rather than fact.

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1. Framing the Episode

• Josh: “People like hearing about curses, even though you know that's not a real thing, right?” (02:00)
• Chuck sets the tone: it’s a “silly” but “fun” look at curses, mostly as cultural and historical phenomena rather than supernatural fact.

Key Point: The episode focuses on the anthropology and storytelling behind curses, often debunking them but appreciating their lasting cultural impact.

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2. The Curse of Brunswick Springs (Vermont)

[04:14–10:05]

Background

• Brunswick Springs: Six mineral springs in Brunswick, Vermont, each with different minerals (magnesium, sulfur, bromide, calcium, iron, arsenic). The Abenaki tribe considered it a sacred, healing place.
• During the French & Indian War, the Abenaki heal a wounded French soldier at the springs. The soldier later returns, commercializes the springs, conflict ensues, and a curse is laid by the widow of an Abenaki man and her infant after their deaths.
• The curse: Anyone trying to exploit the springs for profit “shall be cursed and it will not be a success.” (06:36)

Attempts to Monetize & "Proof" of Curse

• A series of ill-fated spa and resort developments were built between the 1860s and 1930s. Each one eventually burned to the ground—sometimes within a year of rebuilding.
• Josh: “That was in 1894, and it burned to the ground...That also burned down...They all burned down in 1930 and 1931.” (08:36)
• Now, the land is owned in trust for Vermont—never to be developed, honoring the Abenaki’s wishes.

Notable Quote

• Josh: “That curse was able to fall back asleep.” (10:07)

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3. The Hollywood "Curse of Atuk"

[10:25–18:58]

Story of the Unfilmable Movie

• Atuk: A satirical novel about an Inuit poet. The film rights were bought; major actors attached over decades all died young.
• Victims:
  • John Belushi (1982) – Died before pre-production
  • Sam Kinison (1988) – Died after brief filming
  • Michael O’Donoghue (screenwriter) – Died of hemorrhage
  • John Candy (attached 1996) – Died of a heart attack
  • Chris Farley (1997) – Died before production; Phil Hartman, also attached, died soon after

Discussion

• Chuck: “I mean, there’s a bunch of deaths of people tagged on to Atuk and Atuk still hasn’t been made.” (17:28)
• The hosts note the pattern but also acknowledge that all involved had histories that made them statistically more prone to early death (substance issues, health problems, etc.).
• Other “cursed scripts” are mentioned, including A Confederacy of Dunces and a Fatty Arbuckle biopic—many of the same actors were named for these projects.

Notable Moment

• Josh: “This one is actually real.” (Joking about the Cubs' curse later in the show, but echoes the Atuk segment's tongue-in-cheek tone)

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4. The Curse of Tamerlane (Timur)

[23:27–31:53]

Background

• Tamerlane (Timur): 14th-century conqueror whose wars killed ~17 million people (about 5% of global population).
• Buried in Uzbekistan; legend claims an inscription on his tomb warned: “Whosoever disturbs my grave shall unleash a conqueror greater than I.”
• In 1941, Stalin ordered the tomb's opening. Two days later, Hitler invaded Russia (Operation Barbarossa).
• After great losses, Timur’s remains were reinterred; the tide turned at the Battle of Stalingrad.

Debunking the Curse

• The curse was likely invented in a 2003 Russian documentary. Soviet records show Timur's tomb bore no such inscription, though the timing of events remains eerie.

Notable Quote

• Chuck: “There wasn’t a single curse in there.” (31:52)
• Josh: “Wow, indeed, I think. But... let’s start talking more about baseball.” (32:03)

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5. Curse of the Billy Goat – The Chicago Cubs

[32:12–44:41]

Origin

• 1945 World Series: William Sianis, owner of the Billy Goat Tavern, denied entry to Wrigley Field with his pet goat Murphy.
• Sianis curses the Cubs: “The Cubs ain’t gonna win no more. The Cubs will never win a World Series so long as the goat is not allowed in Wrigley Field.” (36:03)
• The Cubs lose the World Series; a telegram reads, “Who stinks now?”

Attempts to Break the Curse

• Over decades, Sianis’s family repeatedly tried to lift the curse by bringing goats to the park, sometimes using descendants of Murphy.
• Each time a descendant was brought in (1984, 1989, 1998, 2003), the Cubs made postseason appearances. But not until “Sam Sianis rang the Trocani bell that was worn by the original goat” in 2016 did they finally win the World Series.
• Josh: “That seals the deal then ... this one is actually real.” (43:57)

Notable Quote

• Chuck (doing a Harry Caray impersonation): “As they say, Cubs win. Cubs win. Cubs win.” (44:42)

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6. The Jackie Chan Endorsement Curse

[44:55–52:29]

Background & Examples

• Jackie Chan, a superstar in China and worldwide, is legendary for brand endorsements. Many companies he fronted experienced business failures:
  • Sanir Frozen Dumplings: Out of business after staff found in dumplings
  • VCD (video compact discs) maker: Bankrupt, exec jailed for fraud
  • Herbal shampoo (Ba Wang): Sales plummeted after carcinogen scare
  • Volkswagen Caddy, “Fen Wang” Cola, Subor Learning Machine: All market flops

Law of Large Numbers or Curse?

• The hosts note this is partly just probability: Chan endorsed so many products, some were bound to fail.
• The "curse" even extended to tennis: In the 2025 Australian Open, three finalists—Aryna Sabalenka, Alexander Zverev, Jelena Ostapenko—all lost after shaking Chan’s hand.

Notable Quotes

• Chuck: “So Jackie Chan is clearly cursed, right?” (51:20)
• Josh: “Unless you count tennis.” (51:52)

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7. (Unofficially) The “Zero Factor”

• The hosts tease but don’t cover another alleged curse (the “zero factor”), joking that they're keeping their own podcast curse alive by never finishing a planned list of topics.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chuck (On curses being more legend than science): “We’re basically doing an anthropological view of some famous curses or interesting curses that aren’t necessarily famous.” (04:01)
• Josh (About the Cubs): “That was in 1894, and it burned to the ground...That also burned down...They all burned down in 1930 and 1931.” (08:36)
• Chuck (On Jackie Chan’s approach to endorsements): “He was down with endorsing a lot of products. So you probably got about a 50, 50 shot of a Jackie Chan product being endorsed and not doing so well.” (51:22)
• Josh: “I think true to our curse, we can never get through a full list. And everyone's just going to have to wonder what this last curse was.” (52:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:14 Brunswick Springs Curse
• 10:25 Atuk Script Curse in Hollywood
• 23:27 Curse of Tamerlane
• 32:12 Curse of the Billy Goat (Chicago Cubs)
• 44:55 Jackie Chan Endorsement Curse
• 52:41 Unfinished List/Joke on Podcast Being Cursed

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Tone, Style & Approach

• Josh and Chuck take an investigative yet always humorous view, focusing more on storytelling, skepticism, and the fun of legends.
• Both hosts frequently joke about their own podcast being "cursed", especially when segments run long or don’t reach their intended conclusion.

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For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In

This episode offers a lighthearted, fact-checked tour of five notorious "curses", most of which are exposed as quirks of history and culture rather than dark magic. Josh and Chuck provide compelling storytelling, lots of laughter, and plenty of fascinating trivia—while always treating the real-world consequences of such legends with care and curiosity. Whether you're a fan of baseball, old Hollywood, or international pop culture, there's an “interesting curse” here for everyone.

Transcript

[Josh Clark]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I turned off news altogether.

[Chuck Bryant]

I hate to say it, but I

[Josh Clark]

don't trust much of anything.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's the rage bait.

[Josh Clark]

It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Maybe we could calm down a little.

[Josh Clark]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there.

[Commercial Announcer]

NBC News, reporting for America.

[Josh Clark]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Chuck Bryant]

welcome

[Josh Clark]

to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. And Chuck's here and Jerry's here. So that makes this stuff you should know. And I guess we're just gonna call this one of our silly additions.

[Josh Clark]

Well, I don't know if it's silly. I think it's kind of fun. People like hearing about curses, even though you know that's not a real thing, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah. But I would call silliness fun, inherently.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, well, then we're in agreement.

[Josh Clark]

I just want to clear up whether or not we were a cursed podcast, because we are. We've had pretty good success. Is that our curse?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, no. Don't you remember? We have a curse on other people's TV shows. And our own, actually.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, that's right. When we would mention something, a TV show would get canceled, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, when we would go on a TV show, it would get canceled. Yeah, it Happened to. I don't remember the name of her program, but one of Soledad o' Brien's shows. Yeah, the whatever show with Alexis and Jennifer. Jeff Probst, daytime talk show.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Probstin it Up, I think it

[Chuck Bryant]

was called, and I'm sure there's more. But like, all three of those we went on and seriously, within weeks, they were canceled. Off the air or something.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man, now I'm suddenly glad we never went on Conan o'. Brien.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Really? So, yes, we have our own curse, which is hilarious and wonderful because I think that's just one more feather to put in our cap, you know?

[Josh Clark]

That's right. And as you pointed out, when we went on our own TV show that was also canceled.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that was bound to happen, actually.

[Josh Clark]

Not canceled. I always say canceled. It was not renewed. There's a difference.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah, there's a big difference. Canceled is like, just stop, stop, just stop. Yeah. Now renewed is like, you know, we

[Josh Clark]

covered one show last week that had a radar show for mash, had a pilot, and it got canceled.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it, like midair, basically.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Before it hit the West Coast. So that made me feel a lot better.

[Chuck Bryant]

So let's just say, let's just give a little heads up to everybody, especially the people who are like, all I want is science from stuff you should know. This is, like I said, it's a little silly. You said it's going to be fun. A lot of this stuff is just legend. So we kind of tried to fact check as much as we could, but fact checking is a little bit beyond the point because when you start to look into them, everything just falls apart. So that's why, you know, we're basically doing an anthropological view of some famous curses or interesting curses that aren't necessarily famous.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. And we're going to start with the curse on Brunswick Springs. And that is a place in Brunswick, Vermont.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

That has a spring. It has actually six of them. And each one of these, they're pretty great springs. They have some different minerals flowing out of each one. Magnesium, sulfur, bromide, calcium, iron and arsenic. And because springs are a great place to heal oneself, depending on what's going on with you and what the spring can offer. And so obviously, a lot of people over the years have tried to capitalize and charge money on these springs, but not anymore.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, they actually kind of stopped trying. And the reason why is because there's a curse on the springs. We'll see what the deal is with that, starting now.

[Josh Clark]

Sound like you're gonna say right after this break or something.

[Chuck Bryant]

So let's talk about the Abenaki, Chuck.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. They are an Algonquin speaking tribe, and they have lived in that area. And, you know, Brunswick, Vermont, is a lovely area. So I don't blame them. But they've been living there for about 12,000 years. And they obviously were the first ones to say, like, hey, this spring is pretty great. Because they are a indigenous tribe, they considered it a sacred place, and they thought that the springs had mystical healing powers. And, you know, at the very least, they probably have some sort of health benefits.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, sure. But this is like, sacred ground of the Abenaki. It still is, as a matter of fact. And so as part of their oral tradition, and as far as legend goes, too, during the French and Indian War, the Abenaki brought a wounded French soldier. And remember, French and Indian war doesn't mean the French were fighting the Native Americans. They were fighting together against the British.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

So the French soldier was fighting alongside the Abenaki. He got wounded. And depending on who you ask, either he was wounded in his arm and was probably going to lose it. He was mortally wounded. The point of the story is that he was wounded. They took him to Brunswick Springs and he was miraculously cured by the spring water. It was a really, bro. Gesture of the Abenaki to do that for him.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. So obviously that soldier was like, hey, this worked wonders for me. I think I can probably make a little money on this thing. So he returned later, after he was healed, he took over the spring, basically, and started bottling and selling the water. And the Abenaki confronted him, are like, this is no good. There was a bit of a tiff that broke out and bloodshed as a result. There was the death of a man and his infant child, which is super sad. And the wife and mother of those two basically said, all right, you know what that means? It's curse time. Anyone from here till the end of time that comes along, and I'm summarizing, of course, that comes along and tries to exploit these sacred springs for profit shall be cursed and it will not be a success.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Which is kind of a mild curse for having just lost your husband and baby, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I would say, like. And also, you suffer illness and disease and die.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right, Exactly. So very shortly after that, the British won, essentially, the French Indian war, and the Abenaki were removed from the area around the. The Brunswick Springs, and they were essentially moved out of the way by British colonists who settled around there. And so they essentially lost control over their sacred ground. And a hundred years after that, somebody finally was like, we're going to build a resort here. Like, these are. This is a great spa. Right? So they built a spa resort, and there's a website called the Vermonter, and they did a great story on this, but they turned up a hotel brochure from the 1860s, and it said that the spa offered medicine waters from the Great Spirit. So just to add insult to injury, not only had they been like, this is our spring now. Thanks. You go move somewhere else. They were like, by the way, even the Native Americans think this is pretty amazing, so come pay to stay here. So the hotel actually did fairly well for the first few decades. And then the curse finally woke up and was like, where am I? Oh, yeah, I better get to business.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. I'm surprised when they included that medicine waters from the Great Spirit. Like, they were really asking for it at that point. But that didn't awaken the curse. But you were right. What would awaken the curse would be when a dentist took it over and expanded the resort. And this was in 1894, and it burned to the ground about 20 years after that. A guy named John Hutchins bought the place, rebuilt it, and this was in 1929 that also burned down. So he's like, all right, I guess I'm going to rebuild it again, and I'm going to add a couple of more hotels to make it worth my while. They all burned down in 1930 and 1931. So he was like, all right, I guess this place really is cursed. I'm out of here.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And since then, no one's tried to rebuild there again. And the ruins of the hotel are still around. It's pretty cool. There's some good photos of it on that Vermonter website. There's like, a couple foundations, the old train platforms there. There's some staircases that go into an old cellar. But there's never going to be anyone who tries their hand at it again who says, forget this curse. I'm going to try and build my own spa and see if that burns down. Why, Chuck?

[Josh Clark]

Well, because the Abenaki tribe actually purchased the land around the springs and sold it to Vermont. They said, all right, we're sell this to you. This is just a few years ago, and now it's held in a trust, and it's not ever going to be developed.

[Chuck Bryant]

Pretty neat, huh?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's great.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's a great end to that story.

[Josh Clark]

Agreed.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that curse was Able to fall back asleep.

[Josh Clark]

Go back to sleep now, curse, and you're going to wake up in Hollywood, California.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, hold on. Let's have Jerry put some interstitial Christmas music in between these.

[Josh Clark]

All right, so, hooray for Hollywood. This is is one I had heard of before, the curse of Atuk. It's a pretty well regarded curse as far as, you know, in Hollywood circles. There was a script based on a book. It was a 1963 satirical Canadian novel called the Incomparable Atuk by Mordecai Richler. And it's about an Inuit hunter and poet from Canada who is discovered by a documentary crew and brought back to the big city of Toronto and is, you know, it's sort of like a King Kong thing. It's like an exotic curiosity. And of course, as you know, you would expect, once Atuk is in the city, it's like a fish out of water story. But then he realizes, like, how awesome Toronto is and how great it is to be a big city guy and to be famous and kind of rich. And so he wants to fit in there and live that life and eventually runs for office.

[Chuck Bryant]

You're right. It's a great satirical novel. It's essentially the. The antithesis of Crocodile Dundee, because, remember, he moved to the big city, but he changed the big city. The big city didn't change him.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. There was actually a line and a took where he had a knife pulled on him, and he said, that is a knife. That was really worth the effort.

[Chuck Bryant]

It really was. You got there eventually. It took me four takes, everybody.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Good Lord.

[Chuck Bryant]

I've never heard so many beeps in one spot.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, gosh.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, Cheer me on. I can just see Jerry editing this with her face in her hands.

[Josh Clark]

This needs to go in her blooper reel that Jerry doesn't do anymore.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know. So what? The book came out in 1968, and it was optioned within three years. 63, but, yeah, 63. I thought it was 68. Oh, okay. So, yeah, I guess it took a little while for the Americans to catch on. Yeah, the script was purchased. It took a few years to turn it into a script to adapt it. And when they did adapt it, they Americanized it so that A took didn't come from the great northern reaches of Canada. A took came from Alaska. And he wasn't taken to Toronto. He was taken to New York. Right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So that did not trigger this movie getting made, I guess. I mean, you would know way better than me, but, I mean, like, what percentage of scripts actually get made. Like, are there way more scripts out there that have just been passing. Passed around for years and years or kind of rare?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I wonder what the percentage is. I mean, if you're talking about scripts that actually get, like, bought by a studio, I bet 10% of those get made into movies. Maybe not even.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wow. Wow. Well, this was one of them. It was passed around Hollywood for years and years and years. It just never got made. But over the years, there were plenty of people who were like, this is a great script. I want to do this movie. And the first to step up came in 1982. The beginning of 1982. An actor named John Belushi. I think.

[Josh Clark]

I think it's Belushi.

[Chuck Bryant]

Belushi, sorry. He got his hands on it. He's like, I love this script. I'm gonna actually star as a took. And the. I guess the ball didn't even begin to get rolling. It was sitting there, held in place by inertia. Still, before Belushi died.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he died very sadly at age 33 in the Chateau Marmont Hotel. From doing drugs from a speedball. Yes, Very famously. I get the picture. A Duc is probably a big fella, because everybody that has followed in Belushi's footsteps has been of larger proportion. So after Belushi passed, it went back into turnaround, spent a few more years getting kicked around, and then Sam Kinison, the great comedian, signed on in 1988, and they actually started filming. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think they got eight days into it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Did you know real quick, Sam Kinison was a fire and brimstone itinerant preacher.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I did not know that he started out like that. Makes sense. I can totally see it. But wow. So, yeah, they filmed this film, eight days worth of this movie. And I guess Sam Kinison hadn't really read the script because after that point, he was like, hey, I really want some more say, and, like, what the script rewrites are going to do. And the studio was like, ah, we're not really happy about that. And Kinison was like, oh, yeah, well, I'm. I'm going to deliver a terrible performance. And the studio said, oh, yeah, well, we're going to sue you. And they did. They filed a lawsuit against him.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it got pretty ugly. So production was obviously halted, and it was still sort of in being contested when Sam Kinison very sadly died in a car wreck in 1992 at age 38.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, all right. That's a little weird. So far, two actors who've tried to Play A Took have died young. But surely that doesn't mean anything, right?

[Josh Clark]

No. Curses aren't real.

[Chuck Bryant]

No. Although it is real, because if you continue on just a few more years, Atuk, the script, claimed more lives.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. In 1996, screenwriter Michael O', Donohue, who I believe was an SNL guy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

The original scriptwriter. I looked him up. I can't remember his name now. Maybe it was Todd Carroll or something. He was a National Lampoon guy. And maybe Michael o' Donoghue was too. So it was kind of in that world. Long way of saying he took over, did some rewrites, and recruited none other than the great, great John Candy. And very sadly, we all know what happened to John Candy. He passed away at the age of 43 of a heart attack. And O' Donoghue also died of a cerebral hemorrhage at 58. So that was a double curse. And this is the point where I can remind everybody to go out and watch the John Candy documentary, because it is wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, good. Thank you for that. One other thing about that. John Candy and Michael O' Donohue died the same year in 1996, which was also the same year that they decided to make this movie.

[Josh Clark]

Was that not clear?

[Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Commercial Announcer]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

So that was. I mean, that to me, that's like. That's very surprising. Okay. I'm also, you guys, I'm not this really this credulous, but it is very interesting to me. Okay, for sure. What happened the next year, Chuck? Surely the. The horrible reign of terror of Atuk came to an end after John Candy and Michael o'. Donnell.

[Josh Clark]

No, no. I think you know who's coming very sadly. If there's one more person kind of waiting in the wings for this kind of role, it's Chris Farley. Of course, in 1997, he decided to take on this role and got his buddy Phil Hartman on board. And we should doubly point this out. They died before they could get that movie made. The very same year.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that same year.

[Josh Clark]

Same year, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Chris Farley died.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

The next year, Phil Hartman died. We did a whole episode on him.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that was a good one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So, I mean, there's a bunch of deaths of people tagged on to a took and a took still hasn't been made. It's a very weird curse as far as Hollywood curses go. And there's plenty of those. It's a strange curse if you ask me. But the people at Tales from Development Hell website, they did A pretty good article on this. And they pointed out that if A Took is a killer script, there's other killer scripts out there that all those same people were attached to it. At least Belushi, Kinison, Candy and Farley were.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Very famously. The great, great book A Confederacy of Dunces has never been made and there've been just tons and tons of people attached. I think Philip Seymour Hoffman was attached to that as well, and he passed away. I think Will Ferrell was attached. There's been a lot of people attached because it's just such a great, great book. Did you ever read that?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I. Is it just about, like, Southern foibles or is it, like, better? Bigger?

[Josh Clark]

It's better.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's good. What's a foible?

[Chuck Bryant]

Just a unique kind of sometimes negative characteristic or trait or habit or something like that. Just something that makes somebody themself and not like other people that you kind of have to put up with if you're going to love that person. How about that?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, so I have many foibles.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I have a lot of foibles, too. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

What's the other one? The fatty Arbuckle biopic. All those guys were attached to that at one point as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's weird that all of those guys and Philip Seymour Hoffman were attached to Confederacy of Dunces, too. That's interesting.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm glad you mentioned Will Ferrell, though, because I want to take a second and give a PSA in defense of Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly and their movie, Holmes and Watson.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah. You texted me. You liked it, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. When we did our episode on, I guess, Sherlock Holmes, we got a lot of hate from people who were like, that movie sucked. It's terrible. And it's got, like, a really bad rating generally on, I think, Brownies.

[Josh Clark]

It's supposed to be just one of the worst movies. So I'm glad you liked it.

[Chuck Bryant]

That is wrong. I mean, if you're going in looking for any kind of highbrow cinema, you, yes, you're going to be deeply disappointed. But if you're familiar with the cinema of John C. Reilly and Will Ferrell together, you're going to actually be pleasantly surprised. Especially if you think you're going in there. Like, this movie kind of sucks. It's cute. It's a good movie as far as those movies are concerned.

[Josh Clark]

I want to check it out now. Well, yeah. Was there a Catalina Wine Mixer in that one?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, there was not. No. Nothing like that. It was a very. It was true to the period.

[Josh Clark]

Well, I kind of want to see it now, so you should see it.

[Chuck Bryant]

I texted you and told you to see it, and this is what it takes for you to finally listen to me.

[Josh Clark]

All right, I'm going to go ponder my foibles and we'll be back after this.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then you came along and it

[Malcolm Glebel]

was like,

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, well, we were work pals.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Tamara Judge]

is Tamara Judge from Two Teas in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. Can we take a moment to talk about Chewy? I get everything for rugby from Chewy. His food, the treats I'm constantly reordering, the toys he destroys in minutes, even his supplements. And it always shows up fast. Chewy also handles the serious stuff. Prescriptions, pet insurance, telehealth, vet visits, and they're even rolling out vet clinics across the country. Their 247 customer service actually understands dog moms like me and cat moms, bird moms, reptile moms, all of us. And with Chewy's one year satisfaction guarantee, trying something new is never stressful for life. With pets, the answer is chewy. Save $20 on your first order with free shipping at chew panions.chewy.com teapot

[Malcolm Glebel]

hello? Hello, this is Malcolm Glabel from Smart Talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pollard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Chuck Bryant]

Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans. In the digital age.

[Chuck Bryant]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which has a Long history, design history. And now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Chuck Bryant]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com ferrari.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, Chuck, we're gonna head on over to present day Uzbekistan. And there you'll find that I had already parked the Wayback Machine. So let's get.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. And we are talking about the curse of Tamerlane originally, Timur the Lame. And we very much need to point out here that calling someone lame is not a word that we use anymore.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Very much an antiquated term. But that was what they called Timur, and it was then Anglicized to Tamerlane. T A M E R L A N E. Tamerlane.

[Chuck Bryant]

Mm.

[Josh Clark]

Not lame.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

So maybe they were already getting the picture. Like, this is not a nice thing to say.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. He was a 14th century Mongol warlord. I don't know if he was a descendant probably, but he was certainly a successor to Genghis Khan or Chinggis Khan. And very much like Chinggis Khan, he was responsible for the deaths of lots and lots of people. The number that I see bandied about Most frequently is 17 million people.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, geez.

[Chuck Bryant]

Which even more impressive is that that is about 5% of the entire global population at the time. That's how many people died as a result of Tamerlane's conquests.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I think by impressive you mean depressing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure. Yes, exactly. I mean, if you are impressed by large numbers, regardless what they represent, that's all I mean.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So what are you into? Large numbers?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Listen to this one. 17 million.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Whoa.

[Josh Clark]

Very impressed.

[Chuck Bryant]

What are you talking about? Deaths.

[Josh Clark]

This date is over. So he was known as the scourge of God. And he was a member of the Barlas tribe or the Barlas tribe. And, well, you already spoiled that one. And what is now Ubekistan. And he was, you know, he did what they do, they sacked cities all over the place. Moscow, Persia, Delhi, Damascus, you name it. And he's known as one of the. I hate saying great, but one of the great conquerors.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, as far as conquerors and all the terrible things that's attendant with being a conqueror or being conquered by a conqueror, he is often placed on equal footing with Darius I, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan again, and Darius Rucker. Yeah, exactly. Well, wait, as the Hootie frontman or as a country star, I think he's conquered all. Okay, well, then, yeah, Darius Rucker makes sense, too. One of the things, though, is about some of these conquerors, including Tamerlane. He was also credited with spreading a lot of culture, too. And there's actually a type of architecture, architectural style called Timurid, and that you can find in the capital city of Samarkand in Uzbekistan. It's incredibly ornate and colorful and beautiful, and it's credited to his reign.

[Josh Clark]

That's great.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. That's about the best thing you could say.

[Josh Clark]

You were trying to find something positive.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure. If you go look up pictures of that kind of architectural style, you'd be like, wow, that guy was impressive.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's very nice. I know you guys are all going like, okay, geez, guys. Is he cursed or not?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

So it turns out there was a curse. He died in 1405. During his last campaign. He fell ill, and he was put in an ebony coffin and entombed in a mausoleum at a mosque in Samarkand. And he was there just, you know, entombed as a dead person for about 500 years until Stalin came along in 1941 and said, you know what? I want to see if this guy truly had apparently, the lame. And again, I hate even using that word. But his issue was that he had issues with both his right limbs, his right arm, and his right leg. And Stalin sounds like he wanted to get down to the nitty gritty and see if that was really true.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I also get the impression that Stalin was also flexing his power, like, over his vassal states, you know, saying, like, you're this conquering hero that's like, the most revered person in your culture. I can dig him up, basically, if I want to.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

One of the other points of the expedition was that the. The leader of the expedition, Mikhail Jarasimov. Yeah. He was a renowned forensic reconstructionist. So he was going to take Tamerlane's skull and basically do a lifelike likeness of him from it. Right. So here's the problem with all that. There's a. There was an inscription, they say, on Timur's tomb that read, whosoever disturbs my grave shall unleash a conqueror greater than I. So they enter Timur's tomb, they disentomb him, I guess, is what you would call that. They exhume him. Yeah, but I think exhume means take out of the ground. This is taking out of the tomb, Right?

[Josh Clark]

Good point. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

So they take him out of his tomb, let's just stop being hoity toity. And two days later, two days later, Hitler rolls across the Russian border, the western Russian border, in the biggest land invasion ever before or since. It's called Operation Barbarossa.

[Josh Clark]

And how many days later was this?

[Chuck Bryant]

Two.

[Josh Clark]

Just two?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, two. Two days after they. They disentombed Timur.

[Josh Clark]

The setting of two suns.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's all. I actually saw it put like that.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, it was a massive invasion. Nearly 4 million German and Axis troops flooded there to help out. Like you said, it's the largest invasion in history. And as many as 16 million. Not quite 17, but still a big number. And so I hope we're all impressed.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

Russian civilians, just civilians alone, were killed and millions more, obviously soldiers were killed. And it just. The bloodshed kept going on while Germany was there in Russia. And it was a bad scene.

[Chuck Bryant]

It was a terrible scene. Right. So like the tide eventually did turn and one of the battles that the whole thing turned on was the battle of Stalingrad, which is considered still to this day the bloodiest urban battle in history. The USSR lost 1.1 million soldiers in fighting in just this one city. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

The battle of Stalingrad ended about the same time that Stalin ordered Timur's remains to be re. Entombed.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, as the legend goes, Stalin got a little spooked and was like, all right, well, maybe this thing, you know, this curse happened because of what I did. And so they put him back in there and that was it. They were repelled. The Germans were repelled from the ussr. But here's the deal. The curse was kind of not only obviously are curses not real, but this one doesn't even seem to be real at all. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Like, Stalin couldn't have even gotten cagey about the curse because it seems to have been invented. Not until 2003.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And how did that happen?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, our friend Craig Collins on the site, Hidden Compass, he's the one who said two sun set before the Nazis invaded. For real. He had a really good article about it. He found a Russian documentary from 2003 and they mention. I get the sense it's a very History Channel esque documentary from Russia. They mention a book that they don't name, they don't show, but they say in the book there was inscribed this curse, saying, like, if you dig me up or disentomb me, I'm going to unleash a conqueror on you. That seems to have kind of translated into this idea that that curse was inscribed on his tomb.

[Josh Clark]

Ah, we know.

[Chuck Bryant]

We know for a fact it was not inscribed on his tomb because that same Soviet team that dissociated entombed Timur. Yeah, they copied down all of the inscriptions. One of them. Went back and translated them all and published it as a book. There wasn't a single curse in there.

[Josh Clark]

No curse.

[Chuck Bryant]

But the rest of the stuff is fairly accurate. The timing actually is still pretty accurate. It's just the fact that there wasn't an actual stated curse is the thing.

[Commercial Announcer]

Wow.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wow, indeed, I think, but. So let's start talking about tens of millions of people dying, Chuck. And let's start talking more about baseball.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

America's pastime. We're not going to talk about the curse of the Bambino and the Red Sox. We're going to talk about the other great curse, the Curse of the Goat, which involves the beloved Chicago Cubs, a team that I have grown to love merely by growing up watching them on WGN after school and by going to Wrigley Field now a few times.

[Malcolm Glebel]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I tell everybody Wrigley Field's the easiest ballpark to just walk right into. It's wonderful.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's the best. You don't even need a ticket.

[Chuck Bryant]

So let's get back in the way back. Let's get back in the way back machine Chuck. And talk about somebody who actually did have a ticket and still had a problem getting in. We're going to go back to October 6, 1945, a particularly chilly day. And when we show up at Wrigley Field, we're going to find that the Cubs are scheduled to play the Tigers in game four of what's known as the World Series of Baseball.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. And the guy trying to get in was a bar owner. He owned a tavern called the Lincoln Tavern on Madison. His name was William Sianis. He's a Greek immigrant and got a couple of box seats for $7.20 a piece. Walked up to Wrigley Field with his pet goat, Murphy. Murphy had a little blanket on because it was unseasonably chilly for early October. And there was a sign on Murphy that said, we got Detroit's goat. And he's like, this'll be great. I'm gonna go in here with my goat. I love this goat. And we're gonna watch the ball game. And the kid at the gate said, sir, I don't think you can have a goat in here. That's my best Simpsons guy.

[Chuck Bryant]

That was pretty close, dude.

[Josh Clark]

Pretty good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And so they rejected Him. And he was not allowed to come in.

[Chuck Bryant]

No. And so Sianis, I mean, he was fairly well known. I don't know if connected's the right word. But he owned what was known as the lincoln tavern, I think you said he had since renamed it before this the billy goat tavern, because Murphy, as a kid had fallen off some truck back in 1934 and wandered into the lincoln tavern. And Sianis was like, you're now the mascot. Apparently he even formally adopted Murphy through court. And Murphy had great homes. So these guys have been friends for over 10 years by the time this incident happened. So Sianis is like, you know what? I got just enough clout to get in touch with Philip k. Wrigley. I want him to say, I can't come in before I'll accept it.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. So he pleaded his case. He said, I went to goat court for this guy, and it's all legal, and everyone loves Murphy. You should see people at the tavern. And Wrigley apparently supposedly said, no. And then he said, let billy in, but not the goat. Yuck, yuck, yuck. And when he was like, well, why not the goat? I went to goat court and everything. Wrigley said, because the goat stinks. Which he didn't need to say that, like, goats have an odor, and everybody knows that. You don't have to point it out.

[Chuck Bryant]

So sianus was like, I'm not going to take this sitting down. He stood up, he said, my pride has been wounded, but you have incited, insulted my goat friend of more than a decade. So he cursed the cubs right then and there. He apparently exclaimed, the cubs ain't gonna win no more. The cubs will never win a world series so long as the goat is not allowed in wrigley field. And he stormed off with Murphy in tow. There's another version that says that they were allowed in, but they ended up getting kicked out because other fans complained that Murphy was trying to eat their food. And then the curse happened. Either way, they got cursed because Murphy was not allowed to sit and watch the game.

[Josh Clark]

All right, I think that's a great cliffhanger because we gotta see what happened to the cubs. And we'll find that out right after this.

[Chuck Bryant]

When you came along and it was

[Malcolm Glebel]

like,

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, well, we were work pals.

[Commercial Announcer]

Unlock the savings at boost mobile and save up to $600 a year. I've been scouting these big carriers for a minute now, and I've seen them pull the same play a thousand times. They promise you the world. Then hit you with a price hike right when the game gets tight. But boost mobile, their $25 a month unlimited wireless plan, is the most consistent player on the floor. No contracts, no price hikes. Unlock the Savings [e-mail] Unlock based on average annual single line payment of AT&T, Verizon and T mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile unlimited wireless plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com this

[Tamara Judge]

is Tamara Judge from Two T's in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. Tamara here. As you know, my dog Rugby is like one of my kids and I don't play around when it comes to taking care of him. Chewy is where I get everything he needs. He loves food, so always stocking up on treats and toys from Chewy, which my husband Eddie likes to buy for him. It always shows up fast, which is exactly how I like things. Chewy also handles the serious stuff. Prescriptions, pet insurance and the telehealth vet visits. And now they're opening up vet clinics across the country and they're 247 customer service. They just understand pet people. Plus, with Chewy's one year satisfaction guarantee, trying new things is never stressful. Chewy just makes caring for rugby easier. And that matters to me. For life with pets, the answer is chewy. Save $20 on your first order with free shipping at chewpanions.chewy.com teapod

[Malcolm Glebel]

hello. Hello, this is Malcolm Glebel from Smart Talks with IBM. Today we're diving into a fascinating conversation with Stefano Pallard, head of fan development for Scuderia Ferrari hp.

[Chuck Bryant]

Your pronunciation is strongly American. It's more Scuderia Ferrari.

[Malcolm Glebel]

I'm still working on rolling my R's, but what I was able to learn from Stefano was the importance of engaging the Tifosi, the Ferrari superfans. In the digital age.

[Chuck Bryant]

Ferrari fans and super fans want to be part of something, want to belong to something. So they want to be part of a community and ultimately they want to be part of a winning team.

[Malcolm Glebel]

You've got Ferrari, which is a long history, design history, and now you're interacting in a kind of digital space. I'm curious how you balance those two traditions.

[Chuck Bryant]

When it comes to fan engagement, it's really digital technology. And digital channels are being able to create a deeper connection with our fans.

[Malcolm Glebel]

To learn more about how Ferrari and IBM are using technology to build deeper connections with fans, visit IBM.com/ferrari.

[Chuck Bryant]

Cues. That was great.

[Josh Clark]

That's exactly what happened. They lost that game. They lost the World Series to the Tigers. And Sianis apparently sent a telegram that said, who stinks now?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And the curse of the Billy Goat was born. And for the rest of the 20th century and well into the 21st century, the Cubs were, you know, a 500ish team. They didn't do so great. They had about 15 winning seasons over that span from 46 to 2003. Finished first place three times. No pinnace, no World Series appearances. And just for post season appearances.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And so just for people like me who don't follow baseball, or at least don't follow baseball stats that have a decimal involved, they had 15 winning seasons over 57 years. And that just means that in those seasons they won more games than they lost. Right?

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

That is terrible. Especially, Chuck, when you consider up to that curse, the Cubs were one of the best teams in baseball and had been their entire existence. They'd won the World Series the year before the curse, too. So this was like a real reversal of fortune for the Cubs. And it seems to have hinged on the curse of the Billy Goat Murphy.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. So, you know, because baseball is fun, and people like doing kind of goofing around with kind of lore like this, they tried over the years to lift this curse. They're like, we'll do some fun stuff. So in 1973, the new owner of the Billy Goat Tavern, Sam Sianis, who was the nephew to William, brought the goat to Wrigley. Says he's got to lift this curse. The goat showed up. I think this was a descendant of Murphy. Socrates showed up in a white limousine with a red carpet entrance with a sign that said, all is forgiven. Let me lead the Cubs to the pennant. But the grandson of the initial Denier said, I don't think you can bring that goat in here still. What I don't get is they really, like, set this all up with a red carpet and still didn't let him in. So the Cubs were not involved?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, they weren't involved. There was, I think, a Chicago Tribune columnist who was kind of helping with the whole thing.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

The Cubs were not, I guess, informed ahead of time or like, surely they

[Josh Clark]

knew this was coming. There was a red carpet out there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they saw the red carpet and they were like, no, this isn't happening. So they actually turned a second goat away, a descendant of Murphy's. Like you said in 1973, that's not what you do when you're trying to lift a curse. And so this curse continued on for many, many more years. But over those same years, Chuck, the Cubs changed hands several times. I think the Tribune owned them for a while. And some of these later owners, they had a different feeling about letting a goat in the park. They were a little more goat friendly.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. They're like, if you can have a bunch of guys racing around the field in a footrace dressed as hardware and tools.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Or at least that's what they have at the Braves stadium.

[Chuck Bryant]

Is it just the Braves? I've wondered.

[Josh Clark]

Well, I mean, it's a Home Depot thing, which is Atlanta. So, I mean, they do all kinds of funny races. I think sometimes in some cities, it's like a sausage race is a bratwurst race is a hot dog.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'll bet I can guess cities.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's a drill that races a hammer and then like a wrench or something. I don't know. But at any rate, they're like, if we can do that kind of silliness, we can let a goat in here to lift this curse, and at the very least, it'll be some fun press.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. So they did. There were actually a number of times Sam Ciannis, who led in Socrates in 1973, or tried to. They brought him back, and with other descendants of Murphy over the course of a few decades, he would walk the goat around the field and say, like, we're lifting the curse. We're lifting the curse. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Remember, they only had four post season appearances. 1984, 89, 98, and 2003.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

All four of those postseason appearances came on years when they brought in Murphy's descendants to try to lift the curse.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, this is what I want to know. Were those the only four times they brought the descendant in?

[Chuck Bryant]

Those. Yes. As far as I understand, yes. Those were the only four times over that span of those years when they brought them in. I'm pretty sure.

[Josh Clark]

I think that seals the deal then.

[Chuck Bryant]

It does.

[Josh Clark]

This one is actually real.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes. And Chuck, they finally removed the curse in 2016. Sam Ciannis did. With help from the ghost of Murphy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So in this case, Sam Cianis rang the trocani bell that was worn by the original goat in the 1945 World Series. And that year, as everyone knows, in 2016, the Cubs won it all. They beat the Cleveland Indians. And it was kind of one of the great World Series. It ended in very dramatic fashion.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. It went into extra innings in game seven.

[Josh Clark]

And I think that was the game that he rang the bell, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Apparently he rang it while they were going into extra innings and the Cubs won.

[Josh Clark]

That's incredible.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. As they say, Cubs win. Cubs win. Cubs win.

[Josh Clark]

Man, that is a great Harry carry.

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's move on, Chuck. Let's head on over to Hong Kong.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Jackie Chan, one of my favorites. Although I haven't seen a movie of his in a while. We did watch the. And I had never seen them. I might have talked about this on the show, but the one with Owen Wilson, The Westerns, what were those? Shanghai Noon. Shanghai Noon and its sequel. And I don't know why I never saw those. And they were both quite delightful, especially to watch with, you know, like a 9 or 10 year old.

[Chuck Bryant]

How do you know they were delightful if you've not seen them?

[Josh Clark]

No, I did see them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[Josh Clark]

I had not seen them up until, like last year when we finally saw them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Gotcha. Yeah, he does make some pretty delightful movies. Rumble in the Bronx was pretty good.

[Josh Clark]

I love that one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, the rush hours were fairly fine.

[Josh Clark]

I did not see those.

[Chuck Bryant]

They were watchable. Chris Tucker's pretty great.

[Josh Clark]

I like Chris Tucker.

[Chuck Bryant]

At any rate, Jackie Chan is pretty big in the west, but he is. He can eclipse the sun in China. He's been an enormous star since the 80s when he started starring in movies. He started out as a stuntman and he kind of came, well, I don't want to say on the other side of the camera, but he actually started acting in front of a camera that was rolling and filming, essentially, but as himself, not as some other actor, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. And then he became a star very quickly. And this is a time, well, in the entire world where the Internet wasn't around. But I think China had access to it even later than other people. So the choice of stars to choose from was much more limited, which let Jackie Chan just get bigger and bigger and bigger over the years. So he's huge in China.

[Josh Clark]

He is. And my friend, I think you missed your calling. You could have been a director with your knack for the vernacular.

[Chuck Bryant]

You can snort, Chuck.

[Josh Clark]

All right, so Jackie Chan gets famous in the United States. Finally. That Rumble in the Bronx that you mentioned was his, I think, his first big American film in 1995. I'm not gonna count the Cannonball Run movies.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, was he in that? Yeah, in the original ones.

[Josh Clark]

I mean, surely they haven't been remade, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

I think they have.

[Josh Clark]

Have they really?

[Chuck Bryant]

I think I just say stuff, though, sometimes.

[Josh Clark]

He was in Cannonball Run. Okay, like, wait a Minute. Now I'm doubting myself. I'm pretty sure. Remember, there were the two. You know, the two. I think they were supposed to be Japanese in the movie that didn't speak English, that were racing, and I think Jackie Chan was one of them. But now I'm doubting myself. I don't know. We'll look it up, maybe.

[Chuck Bryant]

I thought they only used Italian actors to play Japanese people back then.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, that's true. Old Hollywood. But here's where Jackie Chan's curse comes in. Because he has endorsed a lot of brands over the years as a pitch person, and a lot of those brands have gone out of business after he pitched them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So much so that there's a. What they call a Jackie Chan curse, where if you are going to take advantage of his fame, bask in the glow of his glory, and say, hold this product while I take a photo of you, and then turn that photo into billboards, and maybe we'll have you move around with my product and turn those into actual commercials, too, that we'll put on television. You do so at your own risk. Because there's a lot of companies that have taken a nosedive after they hired him as their pitch man.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. By the way, confirmed. That was Jackie Chan and Cannonball Run.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wowee.

[Josh Clark]

But I have a feeling he didn't speak English at the time, and I don't think the character spoke English, so didn't matter.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He learned everything he knows about acting from Dom DeLuise maybe.

[Josh Clark]

So. Who I met when I was six years old.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I met Dom DeLuise walking around Stow Mountain park one time. And I was delighted because I was a big, big Cannonball Run fan. And he signed a envelope. My mom had a. You know when you get autographs in those days before the selfie? And my mom had a bill, like, with the little cellophane window, and he signed that envelope. So somewhere in my past, I had Tom Dallowy's name scribbled on a bill to Georgia Power.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's wonderful.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So should we read through some of these that went out of business?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Cause some of them went out of business in fairly dramatic fashion, too. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I'm gonna pick this one. Then the Sanir Frozen Dumpling Company went out of business after staff was found in their dumplings.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. There's a company that made video compact discs, also known as vcds. They went bankrupt, and the head of the company went to jail for fraud after they hired him.

[Josh Clark]

Wait, is it vcd?

[Chuck Bryant]

Something vcds.

[Josh Clark]

So did that predate the dvd?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes, I believe it did. Wow.

[Josh Clark]

I've never heard of this. And it wasn't like obviously the big platter, like laserdisc or whatever.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, they were compact discs, actually, and they were video compact discs. I don't know what year this was.

[Josh Clark]

Huh.

[Chuck Bryant]

But it does. That's crazy. Yeah, I think it does predate the DVDs or else they would have just called them DVDs.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I guess you're right. Here's one for you. Do you know what DVD stands for?

[Chuck Bryant]

Direct to Video Direct.

[Josh Clark]

I think a lot of people, in fact, I heard our pal Scott Aukerman on his movie show Scott hasn't seen the other day, said digital Video Discovery. And I was going to text him and shame him, but I didn't. But it's actually digital versatile disc.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, that's. Yeah. Because strange little tidbit. You can call it a DVD or a vcd. So it is quite versatile.

[Josh Clark]

All right. An air conditioning company that Jackie Chan endorse had a unit explode and sales dropped. And I don't know if they went out of business, but that's not a good look.

[Chuck Bryant]

Also, there is an herbal hair loss shampoo called Ba Wang. And I don't think they went out of business, but their sales obviously plummeted after it was misreported that it contained a carcinogen, so. Oh, there are also other brands where, like their. Their product just didn't get off the ground even though they had Jackie Chan as their pitch man. Volkswagen had a panel van called the Caddy that they just stopped making because no one was buying them. Fen Wang Cola fizzled out. I see in every single article on the Jackie Chan curse, there was a children's computer called the Subor Learning Machine. All of these just failed, failed, failed. So Jackie Chan is clearly cursed, right?

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Clearly cursed. To be fair, Jackie Chan is one of those guys in his home country where they would just walk up to him and say, hey, we'll give you ten grand if you'll stand here for 25 seconds and hold this thing. He was down with endorsing a lot of products. So you probably got about a 50, 50 shot of a Jackie Chan product being endorsed and not doing so well.

[Chuck Bryant]

So it's basically just the law of statistics that he's willing to pitch so many things that of course some of them are going to be clunkers, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, unless you count tennis.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. This Jackie Chan curse extended or just showed up or kind of spread Its girth. Across the 2025 Australian Open, not one, not two, but three different tennis players who made it to the final rounds. Aryna Sabalenka, Alexander Zevrev, and Jelena Ostapenko. They made it to the final rounds and all three of them lost their matches after they met Jackie Chan and shook his hand. Wow, that's really something. I wouldn't get too close to Jackie Chan if I had a business or was a professional athlete.

[Josh Clark]

Owen Wilson did all right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Did he, though?

[Josh Clark]

Do you want to do this last one or should we call it a day?

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure, we can call it a day.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think true to our curse, we can never get through a full list. And everyone's just going to have to wonder what this last curse was. I think I had heard it called the zero factor at one point. So let's just tease that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, we'll call it that. You got anything else about curses, Chuck?

[Josh Clark]

I got nothing else.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, we got to put the Wayback Machine in the shop because we don't normally use it this often, so it needs a good tune up, I think.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's making a weird noise too, that clunky thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

And the smoke, too.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, since we just talked about the Wayback Machine, that means it's time for listener mail.

[Josh Clark]

This is from Brett about our episode about Tippi Hedren getting the Vietnamese nail salon started in the United States. Hey, guys. I just listened to that episode and it reminded me of a documentary called the Donut King about Ted and I don't know how to pronounce this. N, G, O, Y. He's Cambodian. I'm going to say. You know what? I'm not going to try.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

But I know that N G E N is pronounced when.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think it's like N G Y E, N or something like that. But yeah, so this would be.

[Josh Clark]

Maybe we're butchering this. I'm sorry, everybody. We're trying. Anyway, guys. I often wondered about why so many donut shops, especially here in Southern California, are operated by Asian families. The documentary is about a Cambodian immigrant who opened a donut shop, then used it as. As a loophole to bring other Cambodian citizens over during Pol Pot's reign and train them to have their own donut shops, which he helped fund.

[Chuck Bryant]

Neat.

[Josh Clark]

He ended up helping dozens, maybe even hundreds of families immigrate. And he basically had a West coast donut empire. He wasn't without his flaws, though. You should know. And the documentary touches on that stuff, but totally worth a watch. Maybe a candidate for short stuff. Thanks for entertaining me at work all day and keep keep up the nerdy work. That is from Brett with one T. Nice Brett.

[Chuck Bryant]

Thank you for that. Definitely hadn't heard that story and it sounds quite worth looking into. If you want to be like Brett and recommend a great idea for a short stuff or a regular episode or say go watch this documentary. We always welcome that. You can send it off to Stuff PodcastHeartRadio Do

[Josh Clark]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

[Tamara Judge]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Josh Clark]

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