SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: Who Committed the 1912 Villisca Ax Murders?

Summary

SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: Who Committed the 1912 Villisca Ax Murders?

Podcast: Stuff You Should Know

Hosts: Josh Clark & Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant
Date: September 26, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Josh and Chuck revisit one of America’s most brutal and perplexing unsolved crimes: the 1912 Villisca ax murders. They discuss the harrowing details, the investigation, and the enduring theories that surround the case. The hosts explore why the murder remains such a chilling mystery, delve into the prime suspects, and discuss the possibility that a serial killer was responsible for similar crimes throughout the Midwest during that era. Throughout, the hosts maintain a mix of respectful gravity and their trademark dry humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction and Basic Facts

• Setting the Stage (01:09 – 04:02):
  • The murder took place on June 9 or 10, 1912, in Villisca, Iowa, a small town now infamous for the crime.
  • Josh and Chuck deliberate on the pronunciation of "Villisca," even phoning the town hall for confirmation in a light-hearted moment:
    • Chuck [02:48]: "Josh called the town hall and lied."
    • Josh [02:58]: "Well, it was kind of a bet that she settled."
  • They note that the town is now defined by this crime, with local websites and culture revolving around the infamous murders.

2. The Night of the Crime & Victims

• Grim Narrative (06:24 – 13:39):
  • Victims:
    • Joe and Sarah Moore; their four children (Herman, Katherine, Boyd, and Paul); and two visiting sisters, Lena and Ina Stillinger.
    • All had returned from a church Children’s Day Mass and were asleep by 10–10:30 pm.
  • The Attack:
    • An intruder entered (using Joe’s own conveniently available ax), likely while the house was unlocked—a common practice then.
    • Demonstrates how “weapons of convenience” like axes were accessible:
      • Josh [09:35]: "Why were there so many axe murders at a certain period of time in American history? Because everybody had an axe."
    • The killer methodically murdered all eight occupants while they slept. Notably, the killer used the blunt end initially, then returned to crush the skulls further with the sharp side—Joe Moore was struck up to 30 times.

3. Details & Peculiarities of the Scene

• The Odd Behavior of the Killer (13:39 – 15:18):
  • Covered all mirrors and windows, and the faces of the victims, with sheets, clothing, or even the victims’ own dresses for the girls.
  • Left bizarre evidence behind, such as a two-pound slab of bacon wrapped in a dish towel, and a bowl of bloody wash water.
  • Chuck [14:56]: "There was at least a two pound slab of bacon that he'd wrapped in a dish towel and then left on the floor of one of the bedrooms. So weird."
  • The killer remained in the house after the crime, indicating a chilling calmness.

4. Discovery and Immediate Aftermath

• A Chaotic Crime Scene (15:19 – 19:03):
  • Next morning, a neighbor notices inactivity and raises the alarm.
  • Joe’s brother, Ross Moore, enters and discovers the scene, summoning the local marshal.
  • A horde of townspeople, as well as doctors and ministers, tramples the scene, destroying crucial evidence; one town drunk even takes a piece of skull as a souvenir.
    • Josh [18:29]: "The crime scene is utterly and completely lost."
  • Mishandling and lack of forensic knowledge in 1912 make subsequent investigation difficult.

5. Suspects and Theories

A. Frank Jones – The Powerful Local Rival

• Motives (21:52 – 27:27):
  • Methodist state senator, local businessman; Joe Moore had worked for him and left to start a rival firm, taking a major client with him.
  • Rumors of Moore sleeping with Jones’s daughter-in-law, an indiscreet and infamous woman in town at the time.
    • Josh [23:46]: "From what I understand. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. That's understood as true."
  • Jones suspected not as the killer but as the person who might have hired one—namely, William "Blackie" Mansfield, an already-accused ax murderer. However, Mansfield is exonerated through an airtight alibi.
    • Chuck [26:16]: "Yeah, so he was exonerated. But a lot of townspeople still thought that... A lot of people probably went to their graves thinking that."

B. George Kelly – The Eccentric Preacher

• Profile (27:33 – 34:21):
  • Englishman, traveling preacher, described as a "sex maniac" and with known mental instability.
  • Physically small for the crime but noted to be left-handed, which matches coroner’s analysis.
    • Josh [28:29]: "Thumbs, those little guys, you know... usually good with like Jiu Jitsu sleeper holds rather than ax swinging."
  • Sent lewd letters to women, including asking one to type nude—considered “so obscene, lewd, lascivious, and filthy as to be offensive” [Josh, 30:13].
  • Present in Villisca at the time; left by train next morning; rumored to refer to the crime before it was discovered, but this was later recanted.
  • Posed as a detective a week later to tour the house.
  • Signed a confession but later recanted; evidence was overwhelmingly circumstantial, and after two trials, he was acquitted.

C. The Serial Killer Theory

• Pattern of Similar Murders (37:05 – 46:25):
  • Between 1911–1912, a series of ax murders with strikingly similar MO occurs in the Midwest, linking towns like Colorado Springs, Monmouth (IL), Ellsworth (KS), Paola (KS), and Villisca.
    • Common traits:
      • Covered mirrors/windows, use of oil lamps with wicks turned down/removed chimney, weapon of convenience, sexual assault in some cases, attempts (or successes) at additional murders in the same night, and all occurring in train-connected towns.
    • Josh [42:05]: "Just because Henry Lee Moore's out of the equation doesn't mean there's not a serial killer involved."
    • In some cases, the killer disturbed a secondary house/family, suggesting a spree-like component.
    • Theorist Ed Epperly narrows likely linked crimes to five with very close similarities.
    • Theories include a transient, train-hopping serial killer never caught.
      • Josh [45:59]: "They woke up and saw the man who was about to probably bludgeon them all to death with an axe leaving their house. Yeah."
      • Chuck [46:15]: "By all accounts, there was a train going serial killer for a couple of years in the Midwest killing people, hopping trains, never ever caught."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Town’s Reputation:
  • Josh [03:17]: "I think Villisca is on the map, and it is 100% because of this murder."
• On Weapons of Convenience:
  • Josh [09:35]: "That just explained it. That was the question I didn't realize I'd had. Why were there so many axe murders at a certain period of time in American history? Is because everybody had an axe."
• On Crime Scene Tampering:
  • Josh [18:29]: "The crime scene is utterly and completely lost."
• On the “Three Names” Serial Killer Cliché:
  • Chuck [40:24]: "The news reports it that way to distinguish them from every other Henry Moore in the world."
  • Josh [40:33]: "I love it when things are just explained. Yeah. Wrapped up in a nice little bow."
• On Villisca’s Place in True Crime:
  • Josh [17:03]: "Such a small town, such a grisly crime. Any chances of preserving a crime scene... were lost."
• On the Serial Killer Theory:
  • Josh [42:05]: "Ed Epperly says. Not so fast... Just because Henry Lee Moore's out of the equation doesn't mean there's not a serial killer."
  • Chuck [45:59]: "By all accounts, there was a train going serial killer for a couple of years in the Midwest killing people, hopping trains, never ever caught."
• On the Unsolved Nature of the Crime:
  • Josh [46:41]: "You know, when you say stuff like that or when you see stuff like that in print too, like, we'll never know who it was. It makes you wonder, like, what kind of technology are we gonna have in the future? Like, will we never know? Or are we gonna come up with something one day where we're like, oh, it was this guy."

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Intro & Overview: 01:09–04:02
• Background/Crime Night: 06:24–13:39
• Killer's Behavior at Scene: 13:39–15:18
• Discovery & Tampered Crime Scene: 15:19–19:03
• Suspects (Frank Jones, Mansfield): 21:52–27:27
• Suspects (George Kelly): 27:33–34:21
• Serial Killer Theory: 37:05–46:25
• Discussion on Modern Discoveries/Future: 46:25–47:21

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Tone and Style

• The episode balances macabre historical detail and analysis with Josh and Chuck's signature approachable conversational style, interspersing morbid humor and relatable asides.
• They stress sensitivity to the horror of the events while marveling at the strange details, failed investigation, and lasting mystery.

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Resources Mentioned

• Ed Epperly’s Website: Comprehensive research into the Villisca ax murders.
• Smithsonian Magazine Article: “The Axe Murderer Who Got Away” by Mike Dash.

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Conclusion

Josh and Chuck explore why the Villisca ax murders captured national attention and have never been definitively solved, despite forensic advancements and decades of speculation. They close with the notion that these kinds of mysteries may one day be solved with future technology but, for now, remain one of true crime’s most chilling cold cases.

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This summary covers all substantive content and omits mid-episode advertisements and outro sections.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an Iheart podcast.

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[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

Moving on with our next episode in the playlist. This one's on a horrific and truly saddening multiple axe murder in Iowa in 1912. To some, it looks like a random act of violence committed by someone who is a stranger to the victims. But some odd clues also point to it as the work of possibly someone who knew all of the people who died, which included children. This one is harrowing, interesting, and bizarre.

[Podcast Announcer]

Welcome to stuff you should know from.

[Josh Clark]

Howstuffworks.Com hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry. Put the three of us together, had a little mystery, A lot of mayhem. You got stuff you should know.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

And one Axe. Yeah, Axe. How many is this?

[Josh Clark]

Three. We got Lizzie Borden.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yep. Henta Kaifeck.

[Josh Clark]

Yep. And then this one I couldn't think of any more.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Well, I looked. It's funny cause I looked. I was like, I wonder if we could do a spinoff show just on ax murders. And Wikipedia had 30 listed.

[Josh Clark]

I'm surprised. That's it. There's like 10 mentioned in this article alone. Well, we'll see why there are so many axe murders. This whole researching the Villisca axe murder kind of solved a question I've had that I didn't realize I knew had how to pronounce.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Villisca.

[Josh Clark]

We just settled that by calling the Villisca town hall.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

I know. That was a pretty great moment. Right before we recorded I was like, are you sure it isn't Velissa? And Josh called the town hall and lied.

[Josh Clark]

Well, it was kind of a bet that she settled. Yeah, you said we just never put money on it.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So if you are whoever answers the phone at the Villisca town Hall, first.

[Josh Clark]

Of all, thank you.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

You got a call today, so congratulations. And second of all, you just spoke to an Internet celebrity.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know, man. I think Villisca is on the map, and it is 100% because of this murder.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Well, if you just type in Villisca, almost all you see is stuff about this axe murder.

[Josh Clark]

Well, yeah, the site villiscaiowa.com is entirely dedicated to this axe murder. It's a pretty big deal.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, no, it's just. It doesn't mention it at all. But all the copy is just in the outline of the shape of an ax. They just talk about, like, their boys club and stuff, that they're doing their Fourth of July parade, but it's in the shape of an ax.

[Josh Clark]

Y. The population and elevation isn't a drop of blood coming off of the axe.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, it says population. Not as much as it was on June 9th.

[Josh Clark]

That's morbid.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

1912.

[Josh Clark]

Did you hear about this before?

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Well, I think after Hinterkaifeckt, we had some emails from probably local Iowanes. Iowanes. Iowans. Iowanianites, saying, hey, you guys should. If you're into the. Not into ex murders, but get a load of this. If you're into reporting on grisly crimes, you should check out the one we had in 1912. Yeah, they were right, man. This is. So before we get into it, I think it goes without saying, listeners, that this is a very horrific, grisly crime that we're going to talk about in some detail. So listen at your own discretion.

[Josh Clark]

X murder is in the title, everybody.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, just want to make sure we cover ourselves there.

[Josh Clark]

This is one of the most brutal crimes in American history.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And a lot of people don't know about it, man. Well, let's stop jabbering and get to criming. Okay.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

All right. Where was this from, by the way?

[Josh Clark]

Well, one of the articles we researched was from Mike Dash of the Smithsonian Magazine.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

They do great work.

[Josh Clark]

Great work. There's another guy named Ed Epperle who we have to give a shout out to, who has a whole site called Ask Ed that's dedicated to this murder. Guy's researched it for, like, 55 years or something like that.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Did he write one of the two books? Probably. Sure, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

He's widely known as the expert on the Villisca axe murder. He knows everything there is to know, and he's got a really fascinating site. If you're even remotely into true crime and this thing floats your boat, go check out Ed's site, and you will just spend days poring over it.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. One thing I realized in researching this is it was way easier to get away with murder than 1912.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of agreement that had this been done today, they would have caught the guy very quickly.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

But, yeah, 1912, it was like, you wear gloves, and you just confounded their only means of detection, basically, aside from an eyewitness. Pretty much, yeah. So we keep saying 1912, specifically, like you said, June 9, 1912, in the little town. Well, it was one of those things where it crossed over into midnight. So June 9th, 10th.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Depends on if you're still at partying.

[Josh Clark]

Potato, potato. Villisca. Villisa. Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

But at 508 E. 2nd St. In Villisca, Iowa, which is in the county of Montgomery in the southeast of the state, I believe.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Not as far from here as I thought.

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

I just looked on the map, and I was like, wait, I was there.

[Josh Clark]

I thought I was, like, basically in Canada.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

Huh? Where is it?

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

It's right in the middle of the country.

[Josh Clark]

I did not realize that, like, it.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Doesn'T look further west than, like, Dallas.

[Josh Clark]

I can believe that. But it was the north that gets you the northward direction.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

That's what gets you.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. So on this night, June 9th 10th, 1912, in this little house, there were eight people sleeping. There were a mom and a dad, Joe and Sarah Moore, and then their four kids. What were their names? Charles, I believe.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Herman, Catherine Boyd and Paul.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And then downstairs, there were two additional people sleeping in the house. Little Lena and Ina Stillinger.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

And they were just having a sleepover, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. They were friends of Catherine, the oldest daughter, or the only daughter, I guess, of the Moors. And the whole group had been at church. They were Presbyterians, and they had been at church that day. It was Sunday, for a special Children's day Mass that Mrs. Moore had helped put on. And the kids had all participated in. And at that Mass, Katherine had asked her two friends, Lena and Ina, the sisters, to spend the night. And so they came back home with the Moores from the Children's Day Mass, and by, I think, 10 or 10:30, they were all at home in bed, and the lights were out. The house was settled in dark.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, man. The Stillinger girls I mean, this is all very sad, but anytime I hear of a fateful turn, like, oh, yeah, we just spent the night there that night, and things go bad, it always, I don't know, bothers me more.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. Twists of fate are terrible, especially when they result in terrible deaths.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So very late at night, like you said, after midnight, someone crept in to the back of the house, which was not locked.

[Josh Clark]

That's up for debate.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Oh, yeah. All right. Locked or unlocked, they got in without raising suspicion, Right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Two story house. And this is a small town. There were I don't even think 2,000 people living there then. And I think even less now than there were back then. Yeah, one of those places. So this person, and I think by all accounts we can safely say it was a man, creeps in this house with an axe from the property.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It was Joe Moore's own axe.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. And as we will see, apparently they call these weapons of convenience because back in the day, every single house in the US had an axe, like in the front or backyard.

[Josh Clark]

That just explained it. That was the question I didn't realize I'd had. Why were there so many axe murderers at a certain period of time in American history? Is because everybody had an axe.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. And you would leave it just, you know, like chopped into the stump that you use as the chopping block or whatever.

[Josh Clark]

It'd be like a weapon of convenience.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. These days you would have to kill people with like a mailbox.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Just something that everyone has like a.

[Josh Clark]

Silicone spatula.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Or a high speed Internet cable.

[Josh Clark]

There you go.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Choke somebody with that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Okay. All joking aside, so this dude creeps in there, he's got this axe. He gets, and this is very key here, he gets the lamp, an oil lamp from the dresser inside the house. He takes off the chimney, the glass chimney, takes it off, bends the wick in half so the flame is smaller. Lights the lamp and then turns it down really low and then commences creeping.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. With an axe in hand in this low light. Oil lamp in the other chimney.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Less lamp, which we'll see is a big clue.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So he goes up the stairs, apparently. So he passes the Stillinger girls first.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yep.

[Josh Clark]

Goes up the stairs, he passes the children's bedroom and then opposite, I believe the landing from the children's bedroom are Joe and Sarah's room, or is Joe and Sarah's room, and they're sleeping. And he sets the oil lamp down, I believe, at the foot of the bed. And he raises the axe over his head and using the flat. The flat end, flat side of the axe. Not the sharp blade side, but the other side. He delivers a blow to Joe's head. Joe, I believe, was lying on his back, even though the Smithsonian article says something different.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. Raised it so high, he even gouged the ceiling. Correct.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Brought it down hard on Joe's head. Broke. Probably killed him instantly from that one blow.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Then apparently he didn't disturb Sarah at all because he did the same thing to her. And both of them were found in a position that they would have been sleeping. And there wasn't. Like the bed clothes weren't ruffled. Their arm wasn't up to defend themselves. They died in their sleep, it appeared. Right?

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yes. So he kills the parents either immediately or they die. Probably pretty quickly. Leaves the room and goes next door. And this is really just almost too awful to talk about, but he kills all the children in their sleep, one.

[Josh Clark]

By one, but again, without waking any of them.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. By the time he got to the Stillinger girls downstairs, it seemed evidence points to the fact that they may have awakened finally.

[Josh Clark]

One of them, the older one, Lena, I believe, is the older one.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

And then he dispatches with both of them. Them in the same manner.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Grisly, awful, awful murder.

[Josh Clark]

So that's bad enough, right? This guy just went around and murdered eight people, six of them children under the age of 12 or 12 or under, with the blunt end of an axe. That's bad enough, but then it just gets a million times worse. And this is probably why. This axe murder is just part of American history, whether we like it or not. So what the guy does next is, well, he took the ax and he flips it over and he takes the sharp side and he goes around and he starts bashing everybody's head in, one by one. Apparently, Joe was later found to have been struck as many as 30 times in the head with the axe. Just one by one, he went around and completely caved in the head and face of all of his victims methodically, throughout the house after they were dead, which is a bizarre, horrible thing to do.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. So then it gets a little bit strange. He goes around to the rooms and all over the house, really, and does different things in each one. He covers windows with sheets and things. He covers mirrors.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, all the mirrors in the house are covered.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

He covered the faces of, I believe, all the victims, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. One way or another. I believe all of their faces were.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Covered with either sheets or pillowcases or, I think in the case of the girls, you pulled their Dresses up over their faces.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, we'll talk about that in a second.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, it's very, I think, in the serial killer or psychopath mode, though. I've heard of stuff like that before though.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Like you get the idea that the murderer doesn't want the victim looking at him. Yeah, which may also explain why he bashed their faces in. Who knows? So the guy apparently hangs out for a little while.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

He does other weird things, though. The bacon.

[Josh Clark]

He grabbed a two pound slab of bacon. And I saw elsewhere that there was another slab of bacon found in the house, but there was at least 12 pound slab of bacon that he wrapped in a dish towel and then left on the floor of one of the bedrooms.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So weird.

[Josh Clark]

There was a bowl of bloody water that was later found. He washed himself off. He washed off the ax, although he left it behind. And he apparently hung out for a little while in the house before leaving. Sometime before 5am so the murders took place around midnight.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And then come 5am the house is dark still, it's 5am so that's not the weirdest thing. Although we're talking about Iowa. So plenty of people were up at 5, including the neighbor, a woman named Mary Peckham. And she noticed that there wasn't anybody up at the house, which was a little odd. It was a Monday morning now and. And by 7, she thought it was just downright eerie that there was no sign of life at the house. She went over and let the Moore's chickens out so that they could pick around and feed. She called Joe Moore's store and said, hey, has Joe showed up? And found from the employee that he hadn't. And finally one of those two gets in touch with a guy named Ross Moore, Joe Moore's brother. And Ross comes over and unlocks the door. The front door is locked. And he goes inside. And he comes almost immediately rushing back out, calling for the local marshal to be called.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, basically he gets Hank Horton is the marshal's name. He gets him on the scene. And this is where things just kind of go berserk. It's such a small town, such a grisly crime. Any chances of preserving a crime scene. And this is 1912. I don't even know how much a small town like this knows about preserving a crime scene at the time. But any hopes were lost within those first few hours after the discovery, because by all accounts, there were a hundred or more people that went through that house. From doctors to coroners to investigators to just townspeople that were allowed to just go in there and check things out.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So the first group that comes with the marshal, Hank Horton. Right. Was two doctors and a minister, J. Clark Cooper. Right. Great.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Doctor name, J. Clark Cooper and Edgar Huff and Wesley Ewing, who was the minister of the church.

[Josh Clark]

They were the first contingent to make it into the house after Ross Moore came running out.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So they go in and they know enough to not disturb things too much.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Another guy gets brought in, La Linquist. He's the coroner.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yep.

[Josh Clark]

He tries to take some notes about the crime scene, but the person who got the most information was another doctor. His name was F.S.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Williams.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, F.S. williams was the one who examined the body. And at a later inquest, he had the most details to offer about the bodies, the positions, all that stuff. So when those guys walked in, they were at least well versed enough to know to not disturb things as much as possible. Or at least more than the townspeople knew.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And F.S. williams allegedly came out of the house pretty shaken and said, don't go in there, boys, or you'll regret it to your last day. And the townspeople said, nuts to you. We're going inside. We want to see some dead bodies.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

And they all regretted it, probably till their last day.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Cause they not only messed with the crime scene, they poked around. There was supposedly the town drunk. Took fragments of Joe Moore's skull as mementos. Like the crime scene was toast, like you said. If it could have ever been preserved, it was toast. And even the local druggist showed up with his camera to help preserve the crime scene. Cause he heard that the townspeople were tramping all over it. And Ross Moore, not understanding what he was doing, threw the guy out. Thought he was just being a ghoul, trying to get pictures. So the crime scene is utterly and completely lost.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. And one of the things about Valeska, I almost said, Vassila, is that it was a train town. There were about 30 trains every day that went through there. And so by this time, unless this person was local and maybe hiding out locally, by all accounts, the murderer had probably hopped a train and was out of there at that time.

[Josh Clark]

They didn't realize this until they had already released some bloodhounds. They searched the countryside. There was like a pretty big search to find whoever did this. And they didn't find anybody. So the town was just terrified. Town of 2,000 people, eight, including six children, had just been murdered with an ax in your town. And now the sun's starting to go down and nobody's been caught.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

All right, so let's Take a break and we'll come back and talk about suspect number one right after this.

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[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Okay, so suspect number one might be a little surprising when you first hear that he was a state senator, very well respected by some as a local businessman and a very prominent Methodist. Seems the town was pretty sharply divided between Methodist and Presbyterian. You know those days when that stuff mattered to those people. And his name was Frank Jones. And Methodists immediately said, no, he's gotta be innocent. This is a fine, upstanding member of our church. Presbyterians are like, no, it's gotta be him. And at first I was like, well, why would it be the state senator? None of this makes sense. There were a couple of big things that made people believe that he could be the guy. Joe Moore worked for him for seven years and was one of his best salesmen on his farm equipment team. And apparently he left in 1907 and was not too happy with the work hours, which were 16 hour days, six days a week. Who would be?

[Josh Clark]

It's like us.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

And then set up a rival business and even took one of the clients, the John Deere company.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that was a big one, I'm sure. So big that when Sarah Peckham called Joe Moore's employee to tell him the news. Yeah, Joe Moore's employee called the John Deere people in Omaha to let them know. Oh sure, they were like the third people called after the bodies were discovered.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So he takes John Deere with him. So this set up an obvious Rivalry. And worse than that, apparently. And I don't know if this is super confirmed, but at least the rumor was that Joe Moore had slept with Jones daughter in law.

[Josh Clark]

From what I understand. Beyond a shadow of a doubt. That's understood as true.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

That's true.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So slept with his daughter in law, who apparently kind of had several affairs in town and was not very discreet.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, apparently, according to Mike Dash at Smithsonian, she used to set up her meet and greets over the phone.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

I think it's called a liaison.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, that's right, over the phone. And this was at a time when there was a switchboard operator running the phones in the town.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, they could listen in on everything.

[Josh Clark]

And sat there and listened. Yeah. And this lady obviously didn't care. So apparently it was pretty well known that Joe Moore had had an affair with FF Jones daughter in law, which is huge. You put those two things together, they were not friends. The fact that apparently they used to cross to the other side of the street to keep from encountering one another, that's a big deal in that town. Small town. Right. So suspicion fell onto FF apparently, from what I understand, within a couple hours of the bodies being discovered.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. And suspicion, not that he may have done it, that Jones was actually the killer, but maybe Jones, because he was 57 years old and probably had some pretty good money, clearly.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, he was wealthy. He was building a bank, overseeing his new bank being built when he got the news that the bodies were.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

When you're building a bank, you're rolling in it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So everyone thought that he probably hired somebody out to kill him. And there was a very. The Burns Detective Agency. There was a detective named James Wilkerson who said, you know what? I think you're right. I think he hired someone. I think that man's name was William Mansfield.

[Josh Clark]

William Blackie Mansfield, who was already. No, he wasn't already. He would later be, I believe, convicted of an ax murder himself.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, which is probably one of the chief reasons he was suspect.

[Josh Clark]

Well, no, that came a couple years after, I believe that was 1914 or 15, that he murdered his wife, her parents and their child. His child with an axe. Right. Yeah, the CIA was a bad dude. But there was one problem with James Wilkerson's theory. Blackie Mansfield had an airtight alibi. He was in Illinois, hundreds of miles away, when the crimes occurred. Not only did the foreman vouch for him, but the payroll record showed very clearly that he had not been in Villisca that day and couldn't have done It.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. So he was exonerated. But a lot of townspeople still thought that how it was back then and still is today. To a certain degree.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. Especially in a small town.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. People were convinced that he was the guy. And a lot of people probably went to their graves thinking that.

[Josh Clark]

So even though, Chuck. That Mansfield was exonerated, and like you said, a lot of people thought that Jones, FF Jones apparently went by ff.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Did have something to do with it. The Stillinger girl's father and Ross Moore, Joe Moore's brother, both thought FF Jones was behind this.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And Wilkinson made it like his personal mission to take Jones down and apparently ruined his political career, cost him reelection to the state Senate.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

I would think that probably happened anyway just from suspicion, but.

[Josh Clark]

Maybe. But I think there's something between townspeople suspecting you and a detective bringing evidence against you and getting a grand jury to indict you.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

It was like the good old days when you could be suspected of an axe murder and still win a Senate seat, Right?

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. But Jones, he didn't win reelection.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

And, yeah, apparently to their dying day, some people assume that it was him.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Behind it, Another candidate. Candidate, Suspect, Sure. I think candidate's not the right word. Lynn George. Jacqueline Kelly, the man with four names.

[Josh Clark]

He went by George Kelly, though.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

He was an Englishman, which was probably a little weird at the time.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

He lived in there.

[Josh Clark]

No one had ever seen an Englishman in Iowa.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Maybe he was a preacher, though. And it says in this Smithsonian article, a known sexual deviant. He definitely had some mental health problems, but there were some things in his case where sort of were suspicious and others that made him not a great suspect, one of which, he was a little guy. He was 5 to 119 pounds. So maybe not the best suspect for.

[Josh Clark]

Swinging an ax like that.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Although, you know, he could have been strong as an ox. You never know.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Thumbs, those little guys, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But they're usually good with like Jiu Jitsu sleeper holds rather than ax swinging. You know, they just scramble up on top of you. Before you know it, their legs are around your neck and you're losing consciousness.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. Their thumbs are in your eyeballs, that kind of thing.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. So fair enough. But he was left handed. And the coroner, Linquist did say that, you know, from their analysis, as rudimentary as that might be in 1912, that could probably at least determine that it was a left handed assailant.

[Josh Clark]

From the blood spatter, I believe.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

On the walls.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So good for them for being that advanced.

[Josh Clark]

So there were some other things that implicated George Kelly. One, he was in Villisca. He was a traveling preacher. He and his wife toured around. And they were in Villisca the day of the murder. They were actually at the children's service.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

That the Moores and the Stillinger girls were at. Again, this guy was a sex maniac is what.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, I kind of wonder about that. Does that mean he liked to have sex?

[Josh Clark]

I guess. He placed an ad. And this is in the 1910s. He placed an ad in the Omaha World Herald looking for a stenographer who would be willing to pose as a model. And when one woman named Jessamine Hodgson replied to his ad, he sent her a letter. And apparently he was quite lewd. So much so that the court that heard the case against him said that it was so obscene, lewd, lascivious and filthy as to be offensive to this honorable court and improper to be spread upon the record thereof.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

I really want to know what was in that letter.

[Josh Clark]

Well, one of the things was that the lady would be required to type in the nude.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

This is the 1910s.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

No, that's what I'm saying. I wonder how it would be judged by today's standard.

[Josh Clark]

Oh. Although, I mean, by today's standard, if you sent a potential job candidate a letter that said, gonna require you to be typing in the nude.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You would get in some trouble for that.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Sure. I just don't know that you would say it was obscene, lewd and lascivious.

[Josh Clark]

No, I'm with you.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

They'd say that's kink.

[Josh Clark]

But I think the. Okay. George Kelly was a kinky traveling preacher who had his wife in tow. And he was in Villiska at the time of the murders.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

And he left that next morning on a train.

[Josh Clark]

Right. But there was supposedly a witness that said that he had a very incriminating statement when he got off of that train that very morning.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, he apparently referenced the murders, but he had left town before they found out about the murders. But then later on, those people recanted those statements. Correct.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So when Frank Jones, FF Jones, had a grand jury brought to hear evidence against him, he was exonerated. Same thing. Not with George Kelly. Actually, I should say he was actually the only person to ever go to trial for these murders. And he was tried twice. The first time, the jury found 11 to 1 in his favor. The second jury acquitted him entirely. The evidence against him was just too flimsy, and it probably wasn't him.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, the idea was they were like, he was at that church service. He's a pervert. He saw these kids in the service. He went back and peeked into their house and camped out in their barn. And the evidence there was. There were some hay bales in the barn that had depressions, as if someone had been laying on them. And if you'd laid down in one of them, there was a peephole right there in the barn where you could see the house. This is all pretty flimsy.

[Josh Clark]

There was also, though, I think, one of the reasons why the case was brought against him. He was specifically tried for the murder of Lena Stillinger. And that's noteworthy because although they don't say in the official court record directly that she may have been sexually assaulted or that some sort of sex crime had been committed against her, supposedly she had been found with her nightclothes hiked up over her waist, like, above her waist. Her undergarments had been taken off and stuffed under the bed, and then her legs had been arranged so that her genitalia was prominent. Right. That was done after she had been murdered. And I think that's one of the reasons why they suspected George Kelly, because to add a sexual dimension to this brutal murder, they said, well, this guy's just enough of a sex maniac for that to be possible.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. Oh, I forgot about this fact, though. He actually returned a week later and posed as a Scotland Yard detective so he could get a tour of the house.

[Josh Clark]

That is so George Kelly.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Well, it's definitely one of those things that makes you go, wait a minute, return to the scene of the crime. You lied to get in there and look at the house.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

But apparently everyone wanted to go look at the house.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So it's.

[Josh Clark]

And plus, what's posing? You know, we've seen so many, like, cartoony movies that, like, somebody gets, like, the deer stalker hat and a pipe and says they're from Scotland Yard. Posing could be like, somebody saying, like, oh, you must be from Scotland Yard. And, like, grunting in the affirmative.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, that's true.

[Josh Clark]

I guess that technically constitutes posing in the real world.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Apparently signed a confession.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, that was a big one, too.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. But I mean, the confession literally said, I killed the children upstairs first and the children downstairs last. I knew God wanted me to do it this way. Slay utterly came to mind. And I picked up the ax, went into the house and killed them. But, you know, he took it back later. It's like, yeah, all that very specific stuff I said about killing this family, it didn't really do it.

[Josh Clark]

So he was exonerated. So so far the little town of Villisca has looked around and said we couldn't find any tramps. So who's the person that hated Joe more the most? FF Jones. Well, it wasn't him. Who's the weirdest pervert we can find? Who was in town at the time?

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, that Englishman, George Kelly.

[Josh Clark]

It wasn't him. So they didn't know. A lot of people went to their graves dying not knowing what happened. And we still don't know what happened. But with the hindsight of, I guess, modern forensic technology, techniques, modern profiling, and the work of dedicated historians like Ed Epperly, we have something of a clearer picture emerging. And that picture seems to be centering on the serial killer.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

We'll talk about that theory more right after this.

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[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

All right, so we've ruled out these local suspects. Local ish, I guess, in Kelly's case. And now the modern take on this is that this was a serial killer. Because in 1911 and 1912, there were a lot of axe murders in the Midwest, at least 10 everywhere from Colorado Springs to Ellsworth, Kansas. And many of them had similar traits.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, like some very startlingly similar traits. Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

But not all of them. And some of them are like. And we'll go through these, but some are like, well, in five of them, these same things happen. In two of them, these same things happen. So it Makes me wonder if it wasn't if they're kind of grouping too many of these together.

[Josh Clark]

This does. Ed Epperly actually whittles it down to five, including Villisca.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Oh, I thought it was three. Was it five?

[Josh Clark]

Five. So there's three that happened in 1911. There was one that happened in Colorado Springs, Colorado, that supposedly kicked the whole thing off.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Followed by Monmouth in Illinois. I forgot the S is silent. Yeah. And then Ellsworth, Kansas. Then there was one in Paola K. And then the last one in Villisca. And those five crimes have some similarities that make them really, really suspicious. The idea of just like five different people or even a couple of different people separately committing these crimes. And as Ed Eppersley puts it kind of dismissively, the idea that these were local vendettas or, you know, that people.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Were like an argument over farming or something.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

That's not what these crimes reflect at all. They reflect the work of just a straight up nutjob psychopath who are few and far between. So the fact that these things occurred between October of 1911 and June of 1912 suggests strongly that there was one person doing them.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, well, there was that final one in Columbia, Missouri in December 1912. And one of the theories is that a man named Henry Lee Moore killed Georgia Moore in Columbia, Missouri, who was his mother, and Mary Wilson. So is that the guy?

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

It would be weird to commit a series of murders and then finish up with your own family.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Usually it's the other way around.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Right. So, like, if you're going to go off on a killing spree, usually start you practice on your family first.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. Like a recital.

[Josh Clark]

Get a feel for it. Right. This guy, Henry Lemore, aside from having three names, is not a good suspect for the serial killer. Right. He apparently wanted the deeds to his family house. And like you said, it's very rare for a serial killer to go back.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

You know the deal with the three names, they don't all have three names.

[Josh Clark]

No, I know, but so many of them do.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Well, no, the news reports it that way to distinguish them from every other Henry Moore in the world.

[Josh Clark]

Gotcha.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So like, everyone's always like, serial killers have three names. No, they're just reported that way.

[Josh Clark]

That's awesome.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I love it when things are just explained. Yeah. Wrapped up in a nice little bow. Thanks for that.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Like Lee Harvey Oswald. He I think went by Lee Oswald.

[Josh Clark]

I think you're right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

So if anyone ever writes a story about Charles Wayne Bryant, we're in trouble.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, I'm in trouble.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

No, I wouldn't kill you.

[Josh Clark]

Thanks, man. I wouldn't kill you either.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Hey, you want to shake on it, Jerry? Witnessed.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So the Henry Lee Moore thing, he's almost like a red herring. Like a lot of people say, well, he was the one. He was the serial killer behind it. Because the serial killer, the serial murders started right after he got out of prison in Kansas. Yes, and then they ended right after he got caught in Columbia, Missouri, with his family.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, kind of makes sense.

[Josh Clark]

It does, but that's where the whole thing really begins and ends. So a lot of people say, well, it wasn't Henry Lee. More so it wasn't a serial killing.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Well, plus, sorry, but his killing his own family was about obtaining the deeds to his family house.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Oh, so that was greed motivated.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Okay. Sorry about that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, not. Not a serious psychopathic sex based serial killer spree. Right? This guy was just a jerk. So since Henry Lee Moore is associated with the serial murder theory, once somebody then finds out that it wasn't Henry Lee Moore, they stop thinking it was a serial murderer.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Ed Epperly says. Not so fast. Wait, wait, wait. Just because Henry Lee Moore's out of the equation doesn't mean there's not a serial killer involved. Yeah, he's like, considering the similarities between these five cases. And they're pretty thick. Right. In a couple of the cases, there were oil lamps found where the chimneys were removed and set aside. And the wicks were bent in half to keep the light low. Yeah, that's a big one. Axes were used in four of the five, but he says that's just probably a matter of convenience. A pipe, I think, was used in the Monmouth, Illinois case, which is again, an implement of convenience, too. Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

Don't have an ax handy. Go for a lead pipe. Right?

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, you probably didn't bring that with you.

[Josh Clark]

Right? Tell them about the mirrors, Chuck.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Well, I mean, at several of these places, the mirrors were covered up. I mean, that's a big one. Mirrors and windows. And in one of the places, the telephone was covered. And the thought there is that like you said earlier, they don't want the victims to be watching them even after death or to be seen. And the mirrors and windows being covered. But the phone, apparently it was one of those old box phones on the wall that you crank. And it has the two. It sort of looks like a face when you look at it. It has like, looks like two eyes. And a nose. And so the thought was that that even looks like a face to the deranged serial killer. So they'll cover that up as well.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Because nothing else makes much sense. You know, you're not gonna. In 1912, you're not getting phone calls after midnight. You probably, probably don't get more than a couple of phone calls a week in 1912.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Most people don't have phones.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. And throwing a sheet over it wouldn't like disable it anyway.

[Josh Clark]

No. There was another female victim, a young female victim in Monmouth who was found basically the same way that Lena Stillinger was found, with her nightgown thrown up over her waist and her undergarments removed. And apparently there was a similarity in, I believe, Monmouth and Villisca, where. And one other town too, where the killer went on to try to kill again.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, this was the most interesting to me.

[Josh Clark]

Either successfully did kill again. There was one where he went to an EG house whose backyard connected the first murder house, and then went in and killed another family right afterward.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

That was Colorado Springs.

[Josh Clark]

And then in Villisca, the telephone operator who was like sleeping in the telephone switchboard headquarters because no calls were coming through, she reported the doorknob being tried about two hours after the Moore house members were murdered.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah. Like, heard footsteps come up to the door, try to open it, and then heard the footsteps leave. Yeah, that's a little shaky. But the last one was the one that kind of sent the chill up my spine. It was the one in Kansas specifically. You said payola. I bet you there are people there laughing because it's probably pronounced Paula or something.

[Josh Clark]

Probably.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

But who knows? P A O L A Kansas. There was A second family, Mrs. Longmire, the Longmire family. They were awakened, she and her daughter at about midnight to the sound of broken glass, went downstairs and saw a dude in their dining room who had just broken oil lamp, chimney, and then got the heck out of there through a window. So they actually saw a guy.

[Josh Clark]

So think about that, Chuck. Think about that. They saw. They woke up and saw the man who was about to probably bludgeon them all to death with an axe leaving their house. Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

And these were all train towns, so they were all linked by train depots. So by all accounts, there was a train going serial killer for a couple of years in the Midwest killing people, hopping trains, never ever caught.

[Josh Clark]

Isn't that nuts?

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

It is nuts.

[Josh Clark]

And the Villisca axe murders were probably one of his crazy. But we'll never know.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

You know, when you say stuff like that or when you see stuff like that in print too, like, we'll never know who it was. It makes you wonder, like, what kind of technology are we gonna have in the future? Like, will we never know? Or are we gonna come up with something one day where we're like, oh, it was this guy.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, like, now we know.

[Josh Clark]

You know? Who knows? The future knows. That's who knows.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

We should do one on Ed Gein.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

That's, like, kind of one of the big ones we haven't covered.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, I got a couple more, too.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I don't want to even tease them yet. Okay. Okay. True crime.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Maybe we'll do one like this October.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

We used to do multiple kind of creepy episodes.

[Josh Clark]

I think we did last time, too. Last October. Yeah. All right.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

We'll look forward to another ghoulish serial killer type thing.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. Yeah, we did Hinterkaifeck, I think, around.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Oh, is that last?

[Josh Clark]

I think so. Yeah. Okay. If you want to know more about the Villisca axe murders, well, again, strongly recommend you go look up Ed Epperly. You can read the Smithsonian article, the Axe Murderer who Got Away, which is great. And there were plenty of other articles that we relied on that we loved. Thank you for those. In the meantime, you can also hang out with us on howstuffworks.com and our famous search bar. And since I said search bar. Got it in there, it's time for listener meal.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Hey, guys. Love the show. And now I have even more reason to promote your podcast to everyone I know. I work in a small family business with my cousin, and this previous January, started experiencing severe gastrointestinal issues.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I love this email.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Yeah, remember this one? It was, like, from yesterday.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

I won't go into detail, but for months afterward, he saw specialist after specialist hoping to find out the root tested for Crohn's, ulcers, ibs, everything under the sun, none of which had a positive result or diagnosis. Couldn't focus on anything, no energy. Took a ton of time away from work. He felt totally lost and even sought the help of a psychologist because of his diminished work ethic. Did deteriorating quality of life. You see where this is going? People think listeners might know.

[Josh Clark]

And he was Southern.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

One day last month, he was Southern. Actually, he came in after a doctor's appointment and said he developed an iron deficient anemia to add to his list of issues. At first it sounded disconnected until. And I kid you, this is in all caps. I kid you not. Josh and Chuck I was listening to your hook worm episode that day man. When you got to the part about the aggressive iron deficient anemia, I lost my mind. I looked up hookworm infection symptoms, immediately brought it to my cousin and he had every last symptom. His doctor prescribed a medication and he is currently being dewormed. From the first day he started his treatment, he had a noticeable increase in both mood and energy. I don't know how these symptoms come. Could have slipped by a half dozen GPS and specialists. But I truly can't thank you both enough for your podcast and its wide range of topics. That is James in St. Pete, Florida.

[Josh Clark]

That is so awesome man.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

Dude had hookworm.

[Josh Clark]

Can you believe it man? Thank you James and good luck to you cousin. Way to go for being so smart to connect the dots too.

[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

I think your cousin owes you a pizza or a beer or whatever you like.

[Josh Clark]

Maybe both. Yeah, yeah. Trip to Chuck E. Cheese drunk. If you want to get in touch with us to tell us an amazing story like James did, you can tweet to us. I'm Oshumclark and Sysk Podcast. Chuck's at Charles Wchuck Bryant and Stuff youf Should Know on Facebook and you can send us all an email including [e-mail] and as always, join us at our home on the web stuffyouchouchould know.com.

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[Josh Clark]

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[Charles W. 'Chuck' Bryant]

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