SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: Josh and Chuck's List of Horror Movies that Changed the Genre

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist – Josh and Chuck's List of Horror Movies that Changed the Genre

Hosted by Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant | Released on June 27, 2025

In this engaging episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosts Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant delve deep into the world of horror cinema, exploring a curated list of films that have fundamentally transformed the genre. Drawing from Grabster's influential list, the duo analyzes each movie's unique contributions, historical context, and lasting impact on both audiences and filmmakers. Below is a detailed summary capturing their insightful discussions, notable quotes, and the overarching narrative of the episode.

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1. Introduction to the Horror Renaissance

Transcript Segment: [01:04] – [02:30]

The episode kicks off with Josh and Chuck expressing their enthusiasm for the horror genre, emphasizing its evolution and enduring popularity. They highlight the significance of revisiting classic horror films to understand their foundational role in shaping modern horror.

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2. The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari (1920)

Transcript Segment: [09:07] – [14:33]

Overview: Widely regarded as the first true horror movie, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari is a seminal work in German Expressionism. Josh explains its status as a cult classic, noting its surreal set designs and psychological depth.

Key Points:

• German Expressionism Influence: The film's distinct, distorted sets and sharp angles create an unsettling atmosphere, diverging from realistic portrayals.
• Psychological Themes: Explores madness, control, and betrayal, reflecting post-World War I sentiments in Germany.
• Cultural Impact: Inspired future filmmakers like Tim Burton, emphasizing set design as a tool to evoke fear.

Notable Quote: Malcolm Gladwell highlights at [10:06]: "It's the first movie to really kind of take the set to mess with the viewer's mind, the idea of using the camera for something other than capturing realism."

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3. Blood Feast (1963/1968)

Transcript Segment: [14:33] – [19:15]

Overview: Blood Feast by Herschell Gordon Lewis is dissected as the progenitor of the "torture porn" subgenre. Despite its low budget and poor critical reception, its graphic depictions set a new standard for horror gore.

Key Points:

• Innovative Gore: First to showcase explicit violence and dismemberment on screen, pushing the boundaries of on-screen content.
• Budget and Production: Filmed on a shoestring budget, its success demonstrated the commercial viability of extreme horror.
• Legacy: Inspired generations of special effects artists and filmmakers dedicated to graphic horror.

Notable Quote: At [16:10], Josh summarizes: "Blood Feast... was the first of its kind, being the first movie to show what comes after the knife penetrates—the brains on the ground, the entrails, the dismembered limbs."

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4. Night of the Living Dead (1968)

Transcript Segment: [22:43] – [29:54]

Overview: George Romero's masterpiece Night of the Living Dead redefined the zombie archetype and introduced social commentary into horror narratives. Josh and Malcolm explore its groundbreaking elements and cultural significance.

Key Points:

• Zombies Redefined: Transition from controlled undead to flesh-eating ghouls, setting the template for modern zombie lore.
• Social Commentary: Allegorical interpretations regarding the Vietnam War, distrust of authority, and societal collapse.
• Casting and Representation: Notably cast a Black actor, Duane Jones, as the protagonist, challenging racial norms of the time.

Notable Quote: At [24:15], Malcolm states: "Zombies are still hot. And we owe that all to Mr. Romero, master of the genre."

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5. The Exorcist (1973)

Transcript Segment: [30:00] – [35:40]

Overview: The Exorcist is celebrated as a monumental film that brought demonic possession narratives to the mainstream, blending horror with deep theological and psychological themes.

Key Points:

• Religious Horror Subgenre: Spawned a series of demon-centric movies, blending horror with religious motifs.
• Cultural Impact: Nominated for Best Picture, it provoked strong reactions, including claims by religious figures that the film was possessed.
• Shocking Imagery: Iconic scenes, such as the head-spinning girl, left lasting impressions and influenced future horror special effects.

Notable Quote: At [33:00], Malcolm reflects: "He wrote the book because he wanted to scare America back to church. That was his aim with the book."

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6. Jaws (1975)

Transcript Segment: [35:40] – [48:30]

Overview: While not a traditional horror movie, Jaws by Steven Spielberg is analyzed for its pervasive sense of fear and its revolutionary approach to filmmaking, establishing the concept of the summer blockbuster.

Key Points:

• Summer Blockbuster Originator: First wide-release summer movie with massive marketing, setting the stage for future tentpole releases.
• Innovative Marketing: Heavy investment in marketing strategies that have become standard in the industry today.
• Cinematic Techniques: Limited screen time for the shark increased suspense and audience fear, proving that less can be more in horror.

Notable Quote: At [38:10], Malcolm notes: "Jaws... changed moviemaking to this day in multiple ways, multiple massive ways. It changed the entire film industry almost single-handedly."

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7. Halloween (1978)

Transcript Segment: [48:30] – [56:31]

Overview: John Carpenter's Halloween is credited with birthing the modern slasher genre, introducing the iconic Michael Myers and establishing key tropes that define slashers to this day.

Key Points:

• Slasher Tropes Established: Faceless killer, relentless stalking, and the unstoppable antagonist.
• Iconic Elements: Michael Myers' mask and the minimalist musical score have become enduring symbols in horror.
• Cultural Impact: Solidified the slasher formula, influencing countless films and spawning numerous sequels and imitators.

Notable Quote: At [46:33], Josh emphasizes: "The expression never changed because of that mask. And he did not run. Like, he would just walk. And you still got the feeling like you can't outrun this guy even though he's walking."

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8. The Blair Witch Project (1998)

Transcript Segment: [56:31] – [66:20]

Overview: The Blair Witch Project revolutionized horror through its pioneering use of found footage and viral marketing, creating an immersive and believable narrative that captivated audiences worldwide.

Key Points:

• Found Footage Popularization: Introduced a new storytelling method that relies on perceived real-life documentation.
• Viral Marketing Genius: The film's marketing campaign blurred fiction and reality, enhancing audience engagement.
• Cultural Phenomenon: Despite a low budget, it achieved massive box office success, proving the potential of indie horror films.

Notable Quote: At [50:03], Josh reflects: "The found footage thing is so overplayed now. It's hard to go back and remember when it was fresh."

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9. Scream (1996)

Transcript Segment: [66:20] – [63:53]

Overview: Scream by Wes Craven is dissected for its meta-horror approach, where the film self-references horror tropes and engages in a dialogue with the genre's conventions.

Key Points:

• Meta-Horror Subgenre: Characters openly discuss horror tropes, adding a layer of self-awareness and satire.
• Influence and Legacy: Inspired numerous meta-horror films and revitalized the slasher genre in the 1990s.
• Cultural Impact: Introduced a new level of intertextuality, making audiences more conscious of horror storytelling methods.

Notable Quote: At [53:09], Josh shares: "Scream was a very big deal when it came out. The writer, Kevin Williamson, and this is still the highest growing slasher film of all time."

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10. Psycho (1960)

Transcript Segment: [56:31] – [63:53]

Overview: Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho is hailed as a groundbreaking film that shattered audience expectations by subverting traditional narrative structures and character safety.

Key Points:

• Narrative Shock: Killed off the main character early in the film, creating an unprecedented level of suspense and unpredictability.
• Psychological Depth: Explored themes of obsession, identity, and mental instability, adding complexity to the horror narrative.
• Cinematic Techniques: Masterful use of set design, music, and suspense to create an enduringly unsettling experience.

Notable Quote: At [58:18], Malcolm observes: "If you've never seen Psycho or heard of it, the movie's just going along about this woman who... and then just out of nowhere, she's hacked up in a shower."

---

11. Listener Mail: Schoolhouse Rock Nostalgia Theory

Transcript Segment: [64:32] – [66:20]

Overview: Listener Eric shares his theory connecting Gen X nostalgia to child-targeted advertisements and marketing from the 70s and 80s, suggesting these influenced their lasting fondness for pop culture.

Key Points:

• Pop Culture Influence: Early exposure to targeted marketing ingrained long-term attachments to specific genres and franchises.
• Psychological Impact: Impressions formed during childhood have a persistent effect on adult preferences and nostalgia.

Notable Quote: At [65:17], Josh states: "I propose that Gen X is nostalgic mostly for pop culture because of the proliferation of child-targeted advertisements and marketing in the 70s and 80s."

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12. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript Segment: [66:20] – [68:50]

Josh and Malcolm wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to explore the discussed films and engage with the broader horror genre. They emphasize the importance of understanding these pivotal movies to appreciate the evolution of horror storytelling fully.

Key Points:

• Encouragement to Watch: Urge listeners to view the highlighted films to gain a deeper appreciation of their contributions.
• Engagement with Audience: Invite listeners to share their theories and favorite horror films, fostering a community of horror enthusiasts.

Notable Quote: At [64:30], Josh concludes: "Let us know what we missed, for God's sake."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• [10:06] Malcolm Gladwell: "You've never seen a better use of shadows than this. They didn't get in the way. They just created this mood."

• [16:10] Josh Clark: "Blood Feast... was the first of its kind, being the first movie to show what comes after the knife penetrates—the brains on the ground, the entrails, the dismembered limbs."

• [24:15] Malcolm Gladwell: "Zombies are still hot. And we owe that all to Mr. Romero, master of the genre."

• [33:00] Malcolm Gladwell: "He wrote the book because he wanted to scare America back to church. That was his aim with the book."

• [46:33] Josh Clark: "The expression never changed because of that mask. And he did not run. Like, he would just walk. And you still got the feeling like you can't outrun this guy even though he's walking."

---

Final Thoughts

Josh and Chuck's in-depth analysis provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how specific horror films have not only entertained but also influenced cultural narratives and filmmaking techniques. By examining each film's unique elements and legacy, the hosts offer valuable insights into the ever-evolving landscape of horror cinema.

For more information and to explore these films further, visit howstuffworks.com.

Transcript

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello, Hello. Malcolm Gladwell here from Revisionist History. Did you know T Mobile for Business has an awards show specifically for their customers? It's happening October 20th in sunny Orlando, Florida and I'm encouraging you yes you to enter. This event honors outside the box thinking that changes industries, communities and even the world. And if that doesn't sound great already, I'll be there as the keynote speaker. If your company did something next level using T Mobile for Business, you're eligible. Entries close July 31, so head to t mobile.com enter to learn more and nominate your team. Hi there friends. Welcome back to the playlist. This episode is our list of horror movies that changed the genre. It's from back in 2017 and it's as timely today as as it was back then. Horror is probably my favorite genre of all films and I hope you guys like it too. Even if you're not into horror movies. And even if you're not into horror movies. I hope you guys will like this episode too. It's just that interesting.

[Josh Clark]

Welcome to Stuff you should know from howstuffworks.com.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. Charles W. Chuck Bryant.

[Josh Clark]

Howdy.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

His middle name's Wayne. My middle name's Malcolm. There we have him.

[Josh Clark]

I always forget about that. Malcolm.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Wayne. Named after Wayne Coyne, right?

[Josh Clark]

No, John Wayne. And you were named after Malcolm in the Middle.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's right. Frankie Muniz is my namesake. I hope he's okay.

[Josh Clark]

Early Bryan Cranston, too. I used to love that show.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, it's a great show. I watched it, like, within the last couple months. I was cleaning the house and put it on Netflix and Still great.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, it really is a good show.

[Josh Clark]

So you clean your house, you put on your VR goggles and just cue up Malcolm in the Middle. Yeah, no, I just walk around and bump into things.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right, exactly. But I put on, like, a huge feather duster suit.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So you're just cleaning and bumping into things.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's right. That's how I do it.

[Josh Clark]

Wow.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, it works kind of.

[Josh Clark]

Well, someone's going to take that idea.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Like the Sharknado.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But they should sell that suit with purple drink.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I think you just get one spot on the floor really, really clean.

[Josh Clark]

What are you going to title this one, by the way? Because this was your pick and we title our own shows Episodes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Some horror films that change the genre.

[Josh Clark]

All right. And you should add this, AKA how could you guys forget blank?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Yeah. We should say like this. First of all, this is a Grabster article. So it's Grabster's list.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And he knows what he's talking about. If you look at some of the entries, some don't even have source tags.

[Josh Clark]

Whoa.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He's just like. I just know.

[Josh Clark]

He should just source tag it Grabster.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But we even took his list and carved some out and put some in. So this is. How about this? This is Josh and Chuck's idea of some horror films that changed the genre. Featuring the mind of the Grabster.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. In other words, it is not a complete list of every horror film that changed the genre.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

Because I would argue that. Well, and actually, I see Grabster put Texas Chainsaw Massacre in there.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He said that if this were a top 15 list, that would be in there. So would Alien.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he has that Alien Ringu. And the US Remake Ring. And I would lobby for. Well, Psycho didn't make it onto his list, but we're gonna put that in. And there was one more. Oh. Even though I didn't really think it was that great, the movie Saw, I think, kind of changed horror films, and that's what this list is. Not best horror films, but things that kind of change the game.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

It seems like Saw kind of kicked off that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Torture porn.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, didn't it?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I can't remember if it was that or Hostel. One of the two. It was definitely one of the two.

[Josh Clark]

For a subgenre.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, it's pretty accurate. Actually.

[Josh Clark]

It is. But most of these are movies that either were the first of its kind and maybe did start a subgenre or movies that were so popular that they just, you know, kind of rewrote how people view horror movies. Some of them because of marketing, some because they were really good movies, some because of box office. But all of these, I don't think anyone could argue, did not change the genre. How about that?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Sure. Yeah, I think that's well put, dude. And before we get started, speaking of horror, I want to give a plug to my friend Toby's movie that's coming out. He's a producer on a movie coming out called A Ghost Story.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Toby. When we met Toby. Well, you knew Toby before me, of course, because he's your friend and I.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Know him through Yumi, so. Really?

[Josh Clark]

But he was small time doing short films and stuff. And since that time and this has been within the last, like since we've been doing this podcast. Yeah, he's now big time.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, they did Pete's Dragon.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And then. Yeah, they have this. They did Ain't Them Body Saints was, I think, the one that they kind.

[Josh Clark]

Of broke out with, which I love that movie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And then this one definitely kind of falls into that same look and mood and feel. It's called A Ghost Story and I think it comes out in July and. And I think it's labeled a drama rather than horror or even supernatural or thriller. But the reason I tie it into horror is because A24 is releasing it and A24 is killing it with horror movies lately.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's a good outfit.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

They did the Witch. They did the Black Coat's Daughter. Have you seen that? No, it's on Amazon Prime. It's on Amazon prime right now.

[Josh Clark]

Nodded and gave a thumbs up.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Dude, it's one of the best horror movies I've seen in a while. I think the Witch is probably my favorite right now.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Black Coat's Daughter is a close second. And then last night I saw It Comes at Night in the theater and It Comes At Night. Actually upset my stomach. The ending. Did it was that rough?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I think we're at a place with horror movies that we haven't been in a long time. Like a really genuine good spot. Yeah. Like the whole torture porn sort of era is over and the found footage thing is so played.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, man.

[Josh Clark]

But I think we like. With movies like the Witch, I think we've really like there are some really creative. It follows. Did you see that one? Yeah, like some just really creative ways of bringing scares that I haven't seen before.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Get out. That was amazing to see.

[Josh Clark]

Get out. Yeah, man. I still haven't seen it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You're gonna love it. I'm envious of you. It's great movie, Chuck. You're gonna love it.

[Josh Clark]

Well, I don't get to the movies much anymore, and the only time I could was a couple of weeks ago and I elected to see Wonder Woman.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, not a bad choice.

[Josh Clark]

So, long way of saying congratulations to Toby and his new film.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, it's funny, we also need to congratulate Toby, too, because Toby just got married. Toby and Anel are now married, so congratulations to them as well.

[Josh Clark]

So is this new movie with his directing partner, David Lowery.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, yeah. And Rooney Mara.

[Josh Clark]

Man, they got a good thing going.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, they definitely do. So it's going to be good. I'm looking forward to it.

[Josh Clark]

Awesome.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Okay, so let's get started. Thanks for indulging that.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you, everybody.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So the first movie on our list is what's widely considered the first horror movie. And it's a 1920 movie out of Germany that basically was the first film that undertook what's the artistic movement known as German expressionism. Yeah, it's called the cabinet of Dr. Caligari.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I mean, some say, like you said, it was the first horror movie. Some say it was the first cult film. It. Well, just. You may not be able to get through the whole thing if you're not into silent movies, but you should queue up a little bit of it and watch a little bit of it because it's hugely impactful and still to this day, very disconcerting to look at because of how ominous and weird it looked. Just physically looked.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. The sets that they built are obviously constructed, manufactured. They were not in any way, shape or form going for realism. They were going for surrealism, for sure. And so, like, the staircases are at crazy weird curves and angles. And like, everything from the house. The house's rooftops to the blades of grass are super pointy and sharp. And the shadows that they employed were just perfect. You've never seen a better use of shadows than this. They didn't get in the way. They just created this mood. And it was the first movie to really kind of do that, to just take. To use the camera for something other than capturing realism. And for that reason, it's considered the first horror movie because that's such a standard part of horror, whether large, like in large part like in a Tim Burton movie, or in small part, you know, where you're using small spaces to create claustrophobia. The idea of using the set to mess with the viewer's mind, I think is born in Dr. Caligari's cabinet.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It's almost like they took a child and gave them construction paper and said, cut out scary things. And then, like that movie, the Babadook, I think the actual book within the Babadook was hugely inspired by this, the actual movie itself. The plot is about a sideshow operator, a hypnotist, who has a patient that he takes around to these sideshows with sleep disorder. Supposedly he's been asleep his entire life, and he uses this patient to commit murder.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right. He's like a sleepwalker. Yeah, somnambulist.

[Josh Clark]

So that in itself is a pretty frightening plot. And to think about that being cooked up in 1920, when there were really not such things that you think of as horror movies is pretty impressive.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Mm. And then some of, like, the deeper critiques I've seen of it was like, the. The explanation for why the filmmakers chose, like, these weird, odd angles to kind of depict insanity or that kind of thing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Was rooted in World War I. The horrors of World War I had just been seen and revealed and recently taken place, and it upended Europe in general, and especially Germany as well. And that the idea is that they might not have had this idea, they might not have had this desire, this drive to create this weird set and, in fact, this weird movie had World War I not happened.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. There's this writer, Jeff Saporito, who kind of put it this way about German Expressionism, because I wasn't exactly sure how to define it, but you're kind of right on the money. He said Germany was largely isolated from the rest of the world following World War I, so expressionism therefore became confined to the country. Refers to a number of creative movements from World War I through the 1920s. Expressionist works examine the current and future state of the culture through bold and artistic creations of creativity and often explored topics of madness, betrayal, and other intellectual concepts. And nothing encapsulates these ideas more than the cabinet of Dr. Caligari.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's basically what I said.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Did you read that or were you just that?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I don't know if I read that one or not. It sounded kind of familiar.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. No, just say you came up with it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So the idea of the set just creating a creepy tone and texture to everything, that was Dr. Caligari. That's how it changed the genre.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Tim Burton, say thank you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Have you Seen Coraline?

[Josh Clark]

No, but I know it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

They did that to very good effect.

[Josh Clark]

You know, I think Hodgman does a voice in that, doesn't he?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He does. He does. The dad. He did a spectacular job because you actually forget it's Hodgman while you're watching it.

[Josh Clark]

That's impossible.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

All right, Chuck, moving on. That was 1920. We're gonna fast forward all the way to what, 1960.

[Josh Clark]

1963. If you're talking about Blood Feast.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, I wasn't, but let's.

[Josh Clark]

Simon Abrams of RogerEbert.com says this blood Feast is a terrible film and a historically important one, too.

[Annabe]

Yep.

[Josh Clark]

And I think that's sort of the deal with Blood Feast. It is not good by any accounts.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Did you watch any of it?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, sure.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's not good.

[Josh Clark]

No, it's not good. It's terrible. It was written based on a 14 page outline. Didn't even have a script.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's got the same cloying Technicolor of, like, an early Hawaii Five O episode.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. Directed by Herschel Gordon Lewis and producer David F. Friedman. And basically the idea was this. These guys did not see films as art. They saw them as a business and thought you were foolish if you thought it was anything else. So they sat around, they brainstormed movies that they thought no one else would make.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Because they started out making, like, Porky's esque type movies.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And they were doing fine with that. But apparently they were successful enough with it that they started to be imitators and the market was crowded. So they said, where can we go make movies that no one else is gonna make?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Cause we want to shock people, essentially. So a couple of ideas they had that did not make the list was Conman, Evangelist and Nazi Torture.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Which were later made.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. And they finally said, you know what no one's really done yet is hardcore gore.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yep.

[Josh Clark]

Like, everyone always cuts away when the knife comes, and you're like, what if we showed the grossest, goriest stuff imaginable on screen?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. And even still, they didn't show. So, like, one of the first murders, a woman stabbed through the eye, and then the murderer hacked her legs off with a machete.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And they didn't show the knife penetrate the eye. They didn't show the machete making contact with the skin. But what they did in Blood Feast and what made Blood Feast, the first of its kind, was they would show what came after that. They would show the brains on the ground. They would show the entrails like on the knife, they would show the leg being, you know, that had been dismembered, being put into a bag. And like the wound that was left by it, like, this was. No one had ever done anything like that on film before.

[Josh Clark]

No. And it paid off. Depending on who you ask, the budget was anywhere from like 20 to 30 grand, and it made between 7 and 30 million dollars. Like I said, depending on where you get your info. But by all accounts, it was a huge financial success compared to what they paid to make it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. And they shot it in, I think, six days or something down in Miami.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Based on a 14 page outline. There wasn't even a script. It was an outline, basically. It was like, murderer goes and kills this girl. Next girl, murderer comes in, kills girl, cuts off leg, that kind of thing, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I mean, if it matters, the movie's about a serial killer caterer.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, that's it. There's your plot right there.

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But the. The. It was just such a revolutionary movie that the censors at the time, there wasn't such a thing as the MPAA hadn't been formed yet and there was basically no one except for local censors overseeing movies.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So, you know, you could be playing in one town to all audiences, and then the next town over it could be banned. But the censors had never seen anything like it and they didn't know what to do with it. So it was hugely successful commercially, too.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And another big impact it had was it inspired a generation of special effects, basically, let's be honest, young boys who were doing this on their own Super 8 films and said, wait, I can get a job doing this.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yep. So including Tom Savini, I think, was inspired by it, wasn't he? Or was he inspired by. Yeah, I think he was inspired by Blood Feast.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, wow.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And then we should also give a mention to the Grand Guignol. Is that how you think it's pronounced?

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Grand Guignol. It was a theater in Paris, I believe, from the late 19th century on to, I think, 1962. So the year before Blood Feast came out, it had closed up, but it used to do this stuff on stage. It was like a gore fest. And there was lots of, like, blood and sex and in, like, depraved themes in the plays that were put on at this theater. And people loved it. They were crazy for it. And this was kind of like the Grand Guignol tradition put onto film for the first time.

[Josh Clark]

And hooray for that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You want to take a break.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Walton Goggins]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right, Charles, we're back. So 1960 or 1968.

[Josh Clark]

I've got 1968 in front of my face.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

And that could be no other movie. The Night of the Living Dead. Classic George Romero film. Romero was a TV director making TV commercials. Commercial director rather.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He was also making short films for Mr. Rogers Neighborhood at the time.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And he was, he was young.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. I don't know how old he was, but he was pretty young guy still.

[Josh Clark]

I think when he made Shot Night of the Living Dead, he was like 26 or 27.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Wow.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, but any standard, that's still pretty young unless you're 23.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So he, he had, he and his buddies were like, let's make a horror movie, but let's not make a stupid horror movie. Let's make one with like an actual plot that explores like deep themes to like a good movie. Let's. Let's make the first good horror movie.

[Josh Clark]

Well, yeah, so. And we'll delve into that a little more. But that, that was definitely a different thing at the time. And the other different thing was that all the horror movies up to that point, they were called the Universal Monsters from Universal Studios. You know, all the kind of the classic Frankenstein and Dracula and Creature from the Black Lagoon and the werewolf. And that was where that was mainstream horror. And George Romero comes along and says, how about zombies? And everyone said, what in the world's a zombie? And he said, well, let me define that for every future generation of movie and TV goers and lovers.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, and there had been zombie movies before, but they had been things like like Dr. Caligari's cabinet. Somebody who was under the control of something. Someone else or something like that. There was a hypnotist or this was like the first time what we think of as zombies were ever introduced. Like flesh eating ghouls. Who were dead and come back to life. Yeah, just what you think of as a zombie. This guy started that genre like you said.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. They shot it outside in Pittsburgh on about $115,000 budget, ended up grossing 12 million domestic. Not bad, and I think close to 20 worldwide. And was eventually selected by the Library of Congress for preservation in the National Film Registry.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's a good movie.

[Josh Clark]

It's a very good movie. He shot it in black and white to save on cost, even though color was the standard by that point. And black and white is also a little more forgiving for rudimentary special effects. And one of the revolutionary things he did was cast a black actor as the lead. And for no other reason than, hey, this guy Dwayne Jones is really good.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Exactly. Right. Like, he didn't go back and go, oh, well, you know, our hero's black, so we need to make the. The whole thing of meditation on race and have him confront racism. It was just, here's the script. And then the guy playing the lead just happens to be black.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And he was the best guy in the auditions. And, you know, in 1968, this didn't really happen. You didn't just cast a black guy as the lead actor for no. With no, like, ulterior motive, basically.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right. So I read this review from the. From the time, from 1969, the year after it came out. A young Roger Ebert went and watched it and wrote a review. And he wrote a pretty interesting review, which is basically, it was about the reaction of the audience, and he went to a Saturday matinee that was populated almost entirely by 10, 11 year olds.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, wow.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And they were used to seeing the Creature from the Black Lagoon or Frankenstein or, you know, just movies that any kid could handle and could enjoy watching and, you know, fun, scary kind of stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And he said that's how the. That was how the crowd reacted for the first half of the movie. But then about the point where. And here's. Here comes spoilers, everybody. If you haven't seen Night of the Living Dead, just hit yourself in the knee with a hammer. You. The. The. The teenage couple go to get gas, and when their car blows up and is engulfed in flames, they die. They're burned to death. He said, right about that time, the tone, the mood of the theater changed, and there was no, like, gleeful screaming anymore. Kids were starting to, like, not move and were afraid to, like, move in their seats. And some were quietly crying to themselves. And from that, the whole. The whole point on, it just got Worse and worse for these little kids watching this movie.

[Josh Clark]

So it was a huge impact on horror movies.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

A.

[Josh Clark]

Like you said earlier, it was kind of the first one to really sort of delve into other issues. Like if you look up, like, significance of Night of the Living Dead or meaning of Night of the Living Dead or something like that, there are scores of articles that have been written over the years of how it was a metaphor for the Vietnam War or an allegory about distrust of authority or the collapse of traditional family. And I think Romero said, like, I didn't necessarily mean all these things, but you can certainly find it in the.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Movie that is art. Like, one of the great revelations of my adult life is that the artist, the writer, the songwriter, the author rarely intends to imbue as much meaning into their work as people take from it. That that's part of art, is interpretation. Isn't that neat? Like, you don't. If you're a writer, if you're a young writer right now, who's just sitting there racking your brain for how to insert metaphor and meaning into this, just write your story and people are going to find it for themselves.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, agreed.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I wish somebody had told me that when I was younger.

[Josh Clark]

I had teachers that said stuff like that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, I didn't.

[Josh Clark]

Like good college professors in English that would. When students would argue, like, I think he means this, he would say like, you know, he may or she may not have meant anything.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

That's the revelation.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I had teachers that would just go wrong.

[Josh Clark]

The other thing about Night of the Living Dead is it spawned, obviously, the zombie genre in sequels. Dawn of the Dead, Day of the Dead, Return of the Living Dead, the Walking Dead remakes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Shout out Steven Yeun.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Why not?

[Josh Clark]

I'm still into the Walking Dead. You.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, we talked about this. Yes, yes. Okay. Steven Yeun listens.

[Josh Clark]

Anyway, zombies are, I think, still hot. And we can so hot. We owe that all to Mr. Romero, master of the genre.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yep. Chuck, one more thing too. That Night of the Living Dead did that, they weren't the first, but very famously, Romero did was kill off his hero senselessly and shockingly.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

At the end.

[Josh Clark]

Good point.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Thanks, man. Okay, so let's move on. Like I said, 1973.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Day after Christmas.

[Josh Clark]

If you've ever been in Washington D.C. at the end of M Street, you might have noticed very. During the daytime, ordinary set of stairs. At nighttime, maybe they look creepy to you because those are the Exorcist stairs.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. I'm trying to conjure the music in my head, but all I'm coming up with is the Unsolved Mysteries music. It's not quite right. So close, but it's not it. I'm so unsatisfied right now.

[Josh Clark]

So the Exorcist was based on a book by William Peter Blatty, who wrote this in 1971, and then in 73, the movie was made. And there's. I think I referenced, not too long ago, a great Marc Maron interview with William Friedkin where he talks about the audition process for Linda Blair. So you should go listen to that, because it was pretty insightful. But the Exorcist really kind of changed the game in that it was a. It spawned a bit of a subgenre of demonic movies.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Sure. That were, like, religious based.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Even though I guess Rosemary's Baby was before that. But the Exorcist was such a mega hit, and it was nominated for best picture, the first horror movie to be nominated for that. So it was just like. It was a big deal.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It was. It sold 6 million tickets in about two months.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It's amazing.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is a horror movie. Right. And it came out of nowhere. Apparently. The effect it had on audiences was extremely pronounced. There was a woman in Boston who had to be carried from the theater. And she goes, it cost me $4, but I only lasted 20 minutes. So word like, that's. The stories of that got around and people wanted to see, you know, this movie can't be that scary. And they went. And they were like, oh, my God, that movie is that scary.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And it holds up, too. I mean, special effects are. They'd never quite hold up. But it's still a very creepy movie. Very famously, Linda Blair played the little girl who was possessed by a demon. And the heavy hitters were called in to exorcise this demon, including a Max Van Sydow, who was only 44 when he played this guy. Easily in his 70s. Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Was he Benjamin Button?

[Josh Clark]

Well, no, they made him up.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Wow. They did a great job.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Which I don't see why they felt the need to do that. I know. They. God. Who else did they almost cast? Oh, Brando. They almost cast Brando.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But that would have been a colossal mistake.

[Josh Clark]

Well, Friedkin said, you know what? As soon as you do that, it's a Marlon Brando movie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And I think he said, picture a Brando picture.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Sure. That's what they said.

[Josh Clark]

And he didn't want it to be a Brando picture. He wanted to be the Exorcist.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So the. The you said it was based on a book from two years before by William Peter Blatty. He apparently was known as a comedy writer, and he wanted to do something different.

[Josh Clark]

He said, hey, wouldn't it be funny if the little girl's head spun around and she puked green bile?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Wait, what'll you hear what I have her do with a crucifix? So he actually wrote the book because he wanted to scare America back to church. That was his aim with the book.

[Josh Clark]

It may have worked.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He believed that there was real evil going on in the world, and that part of it was because of a loss of faith or a loss of religion, I guess, and that's what he wanted to do with it. And when the movie came out, there was a huge pushback from religious authorities. Like, Billy Graham said he believed the movie itself was possessed by a demon. I'm not sure how that would happen, but that was, like, a huge thing at the time. And a lot of other religious establishment types were like, don't go see that movie. It's evil. But there were some who were part of religion, major organized religion, who kind of saw through it and said, no, no, this is. It's good that we're talking about this, that we're telling people, you know, or people are seeing that there's such a thing as, like, good versus evil, literally combating on earth, you know, and people are talking about this and thinking about it. And so in that sense, the Exorcist, like, really kind of went to bat for organized religion.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, interesting.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I saw another criticism of it, though, that said, one of the themes of the movie that the book hadn't really intended, but the movie picked up on and expounded on was intergenerational conflict. That it was Reagan, the child represented the younger generation who was at war with the establishment. And that it even goes so far as to where her mother, the actress, the movie that she's working on is about campus takeover by young radicals. So that's kind of a theme that was apparently part of the subtext, but was a major part of it in the movie, at least interesting. Yeah, I thought so, too, because apparently, I mean, you think of intergenerational conflict now, apparently in the late 60s and early 70s, it was sharper than it probably ever has been before or since.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. The only other thing I got is that the green stuff that she projectiles was Anderson's pea soup and a little bit of oatmeal texture.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Anderson's pea soup. I'll bet you can't get that anymore. Chuck, let's do Jaws and then we'll take a break. I love talking about Jaws.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, Jaws is on. You know, I did my top favorite movies list at one point on our website and I listed Jaws as my.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Favorite movie favorite of all time.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean that list changes, but it's Jaws is always in my top five. I can watch it anytime it's on. It is one of the. I've often said it's a perfect movie. And what I mean by that is there's just not a misstep. Like the casting was perfect, the acting was great, the script was great. It played out just perfectly throughout the film. Spielberg was just a master storyteller with that movie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You were talking about how young George Romero was in Night of the Living dead. Spielberg was 26 when he made Jaws.

[Josh Clark]

He was 13 years old.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And he was apparently scared to death. When he finished filming, the schedule had been for 55 days. It went to 1:59.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He had I think been allotted $4 million. He ended up spending 12 million on it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Largely because A, shooting on water is notoriously difficult and B, the shark, mechanical shark they used was legendarily wonky. And how it. Or not wonky, but wanky wonky. It didn't work. No, it rarely worked. So they spent a lot of time and burnt a lot of hours trying to get this shark to do its thing. And so much so that it didn't even make that many appearances in the movie. I think they even kind of scaled it back and that ended up being better for the movie because you didn't get as much shark.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I looked up the urban legend about the shark being named after Spielberg's lawyer, Bruce, and apparently it's true.

[Josh Clark]

Oh really?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Bruce Rayner was the name of Spielberg's lawyer and that was the nickname for the mechanical shark on the set was Bruce.

[Josh Clark]

That's pretty funny.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So with Jaws, right, we're talking about horror movies that change the genre. Jaws not only changed the horror genre, it changed moviemaking to this day in multiple ways, multiple massive ways. It changed the entire film industry almost single handedly.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was at the time. There was no such thing. You take it for granted now, but there was no such thing as a quote unquote, summer release.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, a lot of theaters closed down because AC Wasn't in every theater and people didn't want to sit around in a hot movie theater for two.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. A summer release or a tentpole film or a blockbuster feature like Jaws was the first one of all those.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

At the time when Jaws came out, they used to release a movie on maybe one, two screens in say New York or LA for a week and then it'd make its way to, you know, Atlanta, Minneapolis, Chicago for a few weeks and then eventually it'd make it to your small town and six, eight weeks later. Yeah, that was how movies were released. Not Jaws. Jaws was released on 435 screens across the country, which is huge. Which is part of the, part of the summer blockbuster release playbook now.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And it was also the first movie to spend lots and lots of money on marketing. And so I think the studios were like, wait a minute, if you spend some dough on marketing, you release this thing wide, you can make a ton of money in the first month that a movie's out and you're kind of set. Like after that it's. Anything else is gravy.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And that's after the first like week or two, probably.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, it was. Yeah. The whole point of Blockbuster now is to get that opening weekend, to make all your money back in the opening weekend and then everything else is gravy on top of it. Right. Jaws was. It didn't make its. I don't know, maybe it did make its money back in the first weekend because it hit $100 million in like 70, 78 days or something incredible like that. Because it was the first movie to hit $100 million and it did it in just a couple months even.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It eventually went on to make about $260 million domestically, which is, I mean that's a great take now.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You know, much less the mid-1970s.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Sure. For a $12 million spend for sure.

[Josh Clark]

My only beef here is that I would not consider Jaws a horror movie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I think it's an adventure film.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, I guess you're right.

[Josh Clark]

With a scary antagonist.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

But it's amazing how much I quote that movie in my day to day life.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. A sh, sh, sh. That's a great. That's a classic.

[Josh Clark]

All right, let's take a break. I'm gonna meditate on that line and we'll talk about a few other scary movies, including one that was originally titled scary movie.

[Chuck Bryant]

This July 4th celebrate freedom from spills, stains and overpriced furniture with Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Where designer quality meets the budget friendly pricing sofas start at just $699, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Annabe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric that's built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time. With modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your Life. Now through July 4th, get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Declare independence from dirty outdated furniture. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Walton Goggins]

So you want to start a business? You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills, but you don't. You just need GoDaddy arrow. I'm Walton Goggins and as an actor, I'm an expert in looking like I know what I'm doing even when I don't. And I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins Goggle glasses. But I'm an actor. I don't know what I'm doing. I needed help. Godaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you and even set you up with a social media calendar. I didn't even realize I needed a social media calendar. Godaddy Arrow will take your idea that sounds good and make a business that looks like you know what you're doing. Godaddy Arrow can get your business up and running in minutes. You know what that sounds like? It sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] arrow. That's godaddy.com airo.

[Josh Clark]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. It's also exhilarating because they just launched an exhilarating new flavor chuck called Arctic raspberry. And Liquid IV has sugar free options powered by UV hydro science for smart hydration.

[Josh Clark]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, it's an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins, and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. So no matter what your summer brings, tear, pour, live more. Go to liquidiv.com and get 20% off your first order with code stuff at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with Code [e-mail]. okay, moving on to Halloween. Halloween, Chuck. 1978, I believe. Halloween.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. John Carpenter. A youngish John Carpenter who originally titled this movie the Babysitter Murders. No, little on the nose.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Pretty terrifying title, I guess. Young Jamie Lee Curtis, her very first movie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Was it really?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, she went on to become known as the scream queen for all the horror movies she was in.

[Josh Clark]

Totally. And this was shot in 20 days in South Pasadena as the Midwest. And it's credited as being birthing the slasher genre.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, it did. So there were slasher films before it. The Town that Dreaded Sundown. Good movie. Based on a true crime story actually in Texas, one called Black. The grabster sites from 1974 haven't heard of that one. But the idea of a faceless, almost a like non entity entity coming at you and relentlessly stalking you, being impervious to harm, as the Grabster puts it, and just coming at you again and again trying to kill you, that was all established by Halloween. And it was done like to great effect as well.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And it holds up. It's still scary. Michael Myers, of course, was the killer. The music that John Carpenter scored, I mean, he scores most of his movies himself, but very iconic, basic thing. I think he only took a couple of days to come up with it. But like the Michael Myers character and the mask are so iconic. The music is so iconic.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You know about the mask, right, Shatner?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I went and checked that one out too to verify that it was true. And it definitely is true that the Michael Myers mask is actually a Captain Kirk Star Trek mask painted white.

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That is history.

[Josh Clark]

Yep. In the script, when it came to the mask, it just said pale, neutral features of a man.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. Which makes the whole thing even creepier because he's an implacid. Or is that the right word?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He's just, just almost like just an emotionless killer.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It made the fact that he was merciless, ruthless, pitiless, and arbitrarily killing people almost all the more pronounced because his expression Never changes.

[Josh Clark]

Well, to me, the two things that were creepiest about Halloween was the expression never changed because of that mask. And he did not run. Like, he would just walk. And you still got the feeling like you can't outrun this guy even though he's walking.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That was another creepy part about. It follows was the walking aspect of it.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. In the same way that, like, 28 days later was freaky in that it took zombies and made them run.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Or I remember when I saw Friday the 13th, I'm sorry, nightmare on Elm street for the first time, and Freddy Krueger was running around, I was like, that's not what scary dudes do.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, scary dudes don't trot.

[Josh Clark]

No, they walk very creepily toward you and still somehow gain speed on you, even though you're running full speed.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Freddy scared me to death the first time I saw that movie.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, first one was a pretty good one.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

But Halloween established this. Like you said, it established the slasher genre and everything about slasher films still today, all rooted in Halloween. John Carpenter's tropes.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And again, like you said, there were a couple of other slasher films before, but none of them grossed close to 50 million bucks.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Wow. Is that how much Halloween made?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, 47 million domestic at about a $300,000 budget. So it. You know, it's sort of like with the Exorcist. Like, there were other movies that sort of did this thing before, but when you have a huge hit that does it is when it sort of redefines the genre because it makes money.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And that's all that matters.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Everyone starts paying attention after that.

[Josh Clark]

All right, what's next?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

What's next, my friend, is a movie that came out. When? I don't know. Were you still in college?

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You must have just been out then.

[Josh Clark]

I was out a few years.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Okay. Well, regardless, around our college era, this movie came out, because up to this point, everything's come out either when we were little or before we were born. This one was right in our wheelhouse. It was the Blair Witch Project, which came out in 1998.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And one of the big things that Blair Witch Project did. Well, two things, really. It established the found footage genre or sub genre that is so overplayed now in the viral marketing campaign. And that's how I came upon it. I remember very specifically being in the apartment of Scott Epolito, who, you know.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

He shot our TV show, one of my oldest friends, and I was sitting in his apartment on Claremont Avenue in Decatur. And I happened upon this. And this was pre Facebook. I don't even know how I found it before things were being shared around and I happened upon this website, the very first Blair Witch Project website. And I was like, dude, come over here and check this out. This is the scariest thing I've ever seen. And I remember the website set it up as if it was real. And this found footage thing, it's so overdone now. It's hard to go back in time and remember when it was fresh. But I remember looking at it and being like, did this happen? Did they really find this footage of this murder in the woods? I gotta see this.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That was the rumor that this was actually real, man. And this was like you said. I mean, this is before the found footage genre. So people were being exposed to this concept for the first time and were kind of falling for it. I mean, first of all, you're either in college or you're just recently out of college. So you're maybe slightly more gullible than you are 10 years on.

[Josh Clark]

You're ready to believe it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You want to believe. Right? So, yeah, the idea that this was actual found footage, it just made it all the more enjoyable and people were buying into it then. I think the other part of it too was that the filmmakers, partly because they didn't have the budget for actual effects, left a lot of the scariest parts to your imagination.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Nor did they have the talent to make a good narrative film, I guess.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I mean, they worked on a 64 page script, which I was surprised that it was that big, but they shot it for eight days. And originally they were going to make it like a documentary about the found footage.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And then one of them had a flash of perspective and was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's just release it like it's found footage and the rest was history.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and I'm poking fun. That was not very nice at all. Eduardo Sanchez and Daniel Myrick, or Myrick, the co directors. They should be credited with a truly ingenious campaign and invention.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, they weren't the first to come up with found footage.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

There were some films before. I've never known how to pronounce it. Mondo Kane or Mondo Kane, I think Kane. It's from 1962 and it was supposedly a documentary about like some like, weird tribal rituals. I think there's head shrinking maybe involved. And it purported to be like real footage.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Same with Cannibal Holocaust, which if you've never seen Cannibal Holocaust. Go out and watch it right now. It's very disturbing. And it's so disturbing that the director of the movie was charged with murder because they believed that the actual murders depicted. They were so realistic. They thought that it was a snuff film, basically. But it was supposed to be a documentary as well. So there was an idea of like found footage or documentary style horror movies that had come before, but nothing like the Blair Witch, where it was just straight up. These people. We found their. Their old camera and this is what was on it.

[Josh Clark]

Well, and they were smart enough to kind of dig up an old thing that never went huge. You know, they're like, hey, man. Like these other movies, they never really hit it big. And it was a timing thing. I mean, hats off for them. To them. Good for them. And to them.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Nice going, dudes. All right, Chuck. Scream.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Scream. A tease that it was originally titled Scary Movie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I'm glad it wasn't, because Scary Movie is awesome. I don't know what Scary Movie ever would have been called. Maybe it would have never been made.

[Josh Clark]

Or maybe they would have called that Scream.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, yeah, I guess so.

[Josh Clark]

So Scream was a very big deal when it came out. The writer, Kevin Williamson, and this is still the highest growing slasher film of all time, basically, scream 1 is.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It was huge. I got Neve Campbell's haircut as a result of it. Like, it was a big, big pop culture watermark.

[Josh Clark]

It was. And one of the big things about it, aside from the boatloads of money that it made, was it spawned a subgenre called metahorror, which is. Even though it had been done by no less than its own director, Wes Craven, with Wes Craven's New Nightmare, two years before Scream, it wasn't nearly as popular. But meta horror is this idea. And if you've ever seen Scream, you know, they're constantly just referencing horror movies. Like, this is where, you know, you don't go out and make out in the car because that's where you get killed. And then they would do that and get killed.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Although I don't think that specific thing happened.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Like, don't go back in the house.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Like, all the tropes of horror movies are addressed in the movie and they're.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Talking about them as the horror movie tropes.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Meta horror. Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And there are plenty of other things that came along, meta horror examples. Like, have you seen Tucker and Dale vs Evil?

[Josh Clark]

No, it's a good.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, check it out, man.

[Josh Clark]

All right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's a good movie. Zombieland Yeah, I did see that. Where he's rattling off all of the things that you need to know to survive a zombie apocalypse that he learned from zombie movies.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And then Cabin in the Woods. Did you see that one?

[Josh Clark]

Great movie.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It was a great movie. I thought it was really good. I mean, from beginning to end, it was a great movie.

[Josh Clark]

Did you like Scream?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, Love Scream. I liked all the screams.

[Josh Clark]

I only saw the first two. The second one, I think might have been even better than the first to me. And that the second was shot. Emily worked on that. It was shot here in. At Agnes Scott College, partially.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, is that right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I have to go back and watch it. Knowing that now I'll be like, oh, I've driven past that place.

[Josh Clark]

So I got a few tidbits. Like I said, initial title was Scary Movie Number Two. The Weinstein brothers initially offered it to George Romero and Sam Raimi. What else do I have here? Drew Barrymore was originally supposed to play Sidney, the lead character, and then she said no. How about if I just play that girl at the beginning? Which kind of was a big thing, because you see Drew Barrymore and it was a big shock when she died in the first scene.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right. You know, you can't kill off your heroine right away.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I remember. I remember that first scene really, really scaring me when I saw it the first time in the theater.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, it is. It's a scary, gruesome, gory part.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Very well played. And then before he went to Neve Campbell, he went out to Alicia Witt, Brittany Murphy and Reese Witherspoon.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And then Neve Campbell was like, that was your first choice. Right.

[Josh Clark]

And then the mask, the iconic Scream mask apparently was an off the shelf mask. Wow.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That made that company's money.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And the Weinsteins didn't like it. They were like, I hate that mask. Everything else is fine.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Huh.

[Josh Clark]

But Wes Craven said, no, it's gotta be that mask.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Don't be stupid, Bob.

[Josh Clark]

All right, we're gonna finish up with our own edition here.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Finally, 1960.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Psycho.

[Josh Clark]

I can't believe this wasn't in the list.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I think Ed kept this off the list to toy with somebody he doesn't like specifically. That's the only explanation.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because Psycho changed everything.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, it really did. I mean, it was the. You could say that it was one of the first slasher flicks. It was a early psychological thriller.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It was based on the real life story of Ed Gein.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I mean, it doesn't exactly mirror Ed Gein's. Life. But the idea of being obsessed with your mother so much that you will commit murder is definitely rooted in Ed Gein's story. Yeah. If you're not familiar with Ed Gein, he not only. He was a. I don't even know if he was a serial killer. I think he only. I think he murdered one, maybe two people. But more than anything, he was a grave robber. But he liked to dress up in people's skin, women's skin, and pretend he was his own mother. Which. Man, that's a lot of years on the couch working that one out.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Or you can just die at the hands of cops. One of the two. And he also inspired Leatherface from Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And Buffalo Bill, of course.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Silence of the Lambs.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. One guy inspired all those. All those guys.

[Josh Clark]

So I found this article, Psycho Colon, the Horror Movie that Changed the Genre, by Owen Gleiberman. Or is it Gleiberman?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Glieber.

[Josh Clark]

Gleberman. I think he wrote for Legendary Critic, wrote for EW for years and years, and now writes for Variety.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, he does?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But he. He put it best. He said, well, you know, the iconic shower scene, first of all, is hugely important because it was. Hitchcock really kind of ripped up the script. Not literally, but the horror movie script when he kills off Janet Leigh halfway through the movie. You just didn't do that at the time. No, it came out of nowhere.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And we've seen that come up later on, like at the end of Night of the Living Dead or Drew Barrymore and Screaming. Hitchcock was the first one to do that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And Gleiberman puts it this way. He said he was also slicing through years, decades, centuries even, of audience expectation that the hero or heroine of a fictional work would be shielded and protected or would at least die, usually the end in a way that made some sort of moral, dramatic sense. In Psycho, the murder made no sense at all. And he really kind of hits it on the head there. It was like, if you've never seen Psycho or heard of it, the movie's just going along about this woman who, like, steals some money from her work, and she's kind of on the lam and checks into this hotel and you don't even know it's a horror movie. You're thinking, it's a movie about a lady who steals money and is trying to get away from getting caught.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And then just out of nowhere, she's hacked up in a shower. And at the time, audiences. And still, if you haven't seen it, it's shocking, but audiences were just like. They didn't know what they'd seen.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right, Exactly. So not only is the hero no longer safe, that means maybe you're not either.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So it had a really huge unsettling effect. And then Owen Gleiberman points out that Hitchcock was so smart that he even. He even made a nod to the type of Pat expected horror that the audience was used to in the house that he used for Psycho. The Bates house.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

There was this huge, rambling Victorian mansion on a hill. There's lots of taxidermy and it was like over decorated and just creepy. But up to that point, that was horror. That was what a horror movie looked like and felt like. And this was kind of Hitchcock's homage to that, but at the same time, he was also putting the heel of his shoe on it as well.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And that house was, I mean, almost a character in itself. Like, if you've ever seen the recreation of it in Los Angeles, I think it's at Universal.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Did you see it? Oh, yeah, I never did. The closest I came was, I think when Diff'rent Strokes went there.

[Josh Clark]

That's the closest you got to it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Man. If you've ever seen this thing in person, it sends a chill up your back. Just seeing this thing in a sunny Los Angeles day still.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's awesome.

[Josh Clark]

It's such an iconic house. It's like, oh, man, there it is. That's where Norman Bates lives. He's the most disturbed human of all time.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

So in the movie, of course, there was the mother character who is sort of referenced throughout the movie. And it is not until the end that you realize that there is no mother. Mother's dead.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

There's just Norman Bates and all his rage and hangups.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. So all the monster movies about giant ants or the creature from the Black Lagoon, monsters, things that were an other that a normal person had to do battle with, that was gone.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Now the monster had been on screen the whole time and you had noticed it. And now what do you think about your neighbor who has seemed a little weird from time to time before? Could he be a murderer who thinks he's his mother? Who knows?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is what Hitchcock did to Everybody back in 1960. And you almost get like. I think Owen Gleiberman points it out. Yeah, he does. At the beginning. He basically says, like, we probably didn't see Psycho. If you're reading this, you're probably too young to have seen Psycho in 1960. And we should all feel sad that we Didn't. Because it's so changed everything that we can't do anything but take it for granted now. And everything that's come since then has been trying to regain that shock and horror that it instilled in audiences. And thus far, no one's actually been able to do it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And the other thing, I remember when I saw it when I was younger, I think I saw this when I was like, 14ish. And I think it had this impact on just about everyone. I don't think I took a shower for a month. I was straight up, bathtub curtain open, doors open, windows open.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Making your mom watch. She's keeping watch.

[Josh Clark]

No, that would have been full circle back to, oh, yeah, I guess so.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. You didn't even want to have anything to do with your mom.

[Josh Clark]

No. Man, it changed the shower curtain industry for a while after that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, I'll bet.

[Josh Clark]

Very good movie. And there were a couple of Hitchcock movies in the last few years, two different ones, one with Anthony Hopkins and one with Toby Jones that were both really good. And one was about the years that he was making Psycho. The other was about the years when he was making the Birds. And they were both really, really good movies. And you should check those out, too. You should repeat that. We just got a rare interjection from Noel, so go ahead and say it again, Josh, in case it didn't come through.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So Noel just said that the director of the Black Coat's Daughter is Anthony Perkins, who played Norman Bates in Psycho's Son.

[Josh Clark]

Wow.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He also did another movie, now that Noel says that. Thanks, Noel. It's called the Pretty Little Thing that Lives in the House, which was another horror movie, a ghost story. I think that was his first one, and I think that might be on Netflix. It's great. It's a really great movie too.

[Josh Clark]

Man, this has got me fired up to see some horror movies.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's a renaissance of horror.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It's tough, though, because Emily doesn't really dig it, so I have to just find alone time to do this.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Good to watch it in the bathroom. All right, well, if you want to know more about horror movies, go watch horror movies. Go forth.

[Josh Clark]

Let us know what we missed, for God's sake.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. If you want to check out Grabster's List, type in horror movies on the search [e-mail] and it'll bring up this fine, fine list that you'll disagree with. And since I said disagree, it's time for listener mail.

[Josh Clark]

This is from Eric, and I'm gonna call it what he called it Schoolhouse Rock nostalgia theory. Alright, I think he's pretty right on. This just came in. Actually this is a hot take. Hey guys. In Schoolhouse Rock episode Josh made the statement that Gen Xers are most nostalgic generation and attribute it to the success of Schoolhouse Rock. I'm going to offer my own theory. I propose that Gen X is nostalgic mostly for pop culture because of the prolifer that word of child targeted advertisements and marketing in the 70s and 80s.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Huh? Maybe.

[Josh Clark]

Certainly something we've talked about.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This theory's got legs.

[Josh Clark]

While our little impressionable brains were developing, we were being taught by those who were steering pop culture to long for and find fulfillment in the toys and other products our cartoons were pushing on us. Now as adults, those messages are still deep in our psyche. We can't shake the idea that we still really need those Star wars action figures to be happy. Not because the toys and the shows were so great, but because we had been tricked into believing we need them. I have nothing scientific to back this up.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Just a hunch.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. What? You mean there hasn't been a study from MIT on Star wars toys?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I'm kind of surprised by that as well. I thought you were being facetious at.

[Josh Clark]

First when it just took a turn. Yeah, I don't know which way's up at this point. Yeah, nothing scientific to back this up, but I'd love to hear what you all think. See if anyone out there is any respectable and informed input. Love what you guys do.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Thank you Eric.

[Josh Clark]

That is from Eric Lewin and Eric, I think that's super valid.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, I do too. Eric, I think you've really hit upon.

[Josh Clark]

Something here and that's all I have to say about it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

If you have a great theory, fan theory, real life theory, whatever, we want to hear them. They're especially if it's interesting. You can tweet to us at syskpodcast or Josh umclark. You can post it on Facebook at Charles wchuckbryant or stuff you should know. You can send us an email the stuff podcastowstuffworks.com and as always, join us at our home on the web stuffyouchouknow.com.

[Josh Clark]

For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

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[Josh Clark]

This is an Iheart podcast.