SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: The True Story of BlacKkKlansman

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist – The True Story of BlacKkKlansman

Release Date: June 27, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant
Podcast: Stuff You Should Know
Producer: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction to the Episode

In this special episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosts Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant dive into SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist, focusing on the critically acclaimed film BlacKkKlansman. Released by Spike Lee, the movie portrays the extraordinary true story of Ron Stallworth, the first African American detective in the Colorado Springs Police Department, who infiltrates the Ku Klux Klan (KKK) with the help of a white colleague. This episode dissects the film’s portrayal versus the real-life events, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of both the cinematic narrative and its historical roots.

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Overview of BlacKkKlansman

BlacKkKlansman tells the story of Ron Stallworth (played by John David Washington), an African American detective who successfully infiltrates the KKK in the late 1970s. With the assistance of his white partner, “Chuck” (played by Adam Driver), Stallworth conducts an undercover operation, leading to confrontations with the Klan’s leaders, including David Duke (portrayed by Topher Grace in the film).

Notable Quote:

Josh Clark (03:00): "If you haven't seen this yet and you don't want it to be spoiled, don't listen to this episode first."

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Real Story vs. Movie Portrayal

While the film captures the essence of Stallworth's bravery and the tension of the undercover work, Josh and Chuck explore several differences between reality and Spike Lee’s depiction.

• Character Additions: The movie introduces Patrice, a fictional female love interest representing the female black power movement, embodied by Laura Harrier’s character. In reality, no such character existed in Stallworth's story.

• Duration and Impact of the Operation: The real undercover operation lasted approximately nine months, during which Stallworth and his partner gathered intelligence but did not aim to dismantle the KKK comprehensively. In contrast, the movie amplifies the operation’s scope for dramatic effect.

• Interaction with David Duke: A significant event portrayed in the film is Stallworth revealing his true identity to David Duke during a confrontation, forming an unexpected and complex relationship. In reality, Stallworth maintained his undercover identity throughout the investigation, and such a revealing encounter never occurred.

Notable Quote:

Chuck Bryant (07:05): "This is not him. This is a cop named Ron Stallworth."

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Ron Stallworth's Undercover Operation

Josh and Chuck delve into Ron Stallworth’s methodical approach to infiltrating the KKK. Stallworth initiated contact with the Klan by responding to a classified ad, posing as a white supremacist. Initially expecting mere pamphlets, Stallworth was surprised when he received a call from a real Klan member, Ken O'Dell, leading to a deeper engagement.

Notable Quotes:

Josh Clark (15:01): "He was expecting a pamphlet or something in return... He just wasn't planning to create a large investigation out of making contact through this ad."

Chuck Bryant (20:28): "He was like, oh, boy, what do I do here?"

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David Duke's Involvement

A pivotal moment in both the real story and the film is the interaction between Stallworth and David Duke, the then Grand Wizard of the KKK. The hosts discuss how their conversations were surprisingly cordial, leading Stallworth to describe Duke as a "pleasant person to talk to," despite the abhorrent nature of the Klan.

• Cordial Conversations: Stallworth engaged Duke in multiple friendly dialogues, gathering crucial intelligence while maintaining his undercover persona.

• Public Appearances: Duke visited Colorado Springs for public events, during which Stallworth was assigned to protect him, adding layers of complexity to the investigation.

Notable Quotes:

Chuck Bryant (27:00): "He was trying to make it a more political organization, less of a terrorist organization under his guidance, but it was still the Ku Klux Klan."

Josh Clark (31:40): "He does basically verify that. Yes, that's true. That really happened."

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Spike Lee’s Film Criticism and Real-Life Reactions

The episode addresses criticisms Spike Lee received for his portrayal of events in BlacKkKlansman. Director Boots Riley publicly critiqued the film for not fully capturing the depth of Stallworth’s operation and for presenting a skewed alliance between law enforcement and the Black Power movement.

• Historical Accuracy: Riley argued that the real-life operation was more about information gathering without the intent to dismantle the Klan, contrasting with the film's dramatized narrative.

• Spike Lee’s Response: Spike Lee acknowledged the criticisms but emphasized that the film was not meant to be a documentary. He highlighted the importance of storytelling in addressing complex social issues without claiming to represent historical facts verbatim.

Notable Quotes:

Josh Clark (46:44): "Spike Lee has no comment about it whatsoever."

Chuck Bryant (48:06): "He said, I pray for my demented, dissolute brother in response to Boots Riley."

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Impact and Legacy of the Operation

Despite not leading to mass arrests, the undercover operation had significant implications:

• Prevented Violence: Stallworth and his team successfully prevented three cross-burning ceremonies, reducing the visible threat of Klan activities in Colorado Springs.

• Intelligence Gathering: The operation uncovered links between the Klan and high-level security entities like NORAD, revealing potential threats that required attention.

Notable Quotes:

Josh Clark (42:02): "They did prevent three cross-burning ceremonies during that eight-month span."

Chuck Bryant (40:43): "Ron Stallworth considers it a success in that they fulfilled their mission."

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Listener Feedback and Corrections

In an unexpected turn, a listener named Thomas provided feedback correcting technical inaccuracies unrelated to the episode's main topic, specifically about table tennis terminology. While not directly relevant to BlacKkKlansman, this segment showcases the podcast's engagement with its audience.

Notable Quote:

Thomas (50:34): "Players are not restricted to having one smooth side and one with pips, but one side does have to be red and the other black."

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Conclusion and Endorsements

Josh and Chuck conclude the episode by endorsing the film BlacKkKlansman, praising its storytelling and Spike Lee’s direction despite the noted historical liberties. They encourage listeners to watch the movie to experience the powerful narrative of resilience and undercover bravery.

Notable Quotes:

Chuck Bryant (49:28): "I am endorsing it as well. It has two thumbs up, as it were."

Josh Clark (52:37): "If you want to know more about BlacKkKlansman, you should probably go see that movie."

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Key Takeaways

• Courage and Ingenuity: Ron Stallworth’s undercover work exemplifies bravery and strategic thinking in combating entrenched racist organizations.

• Film vs. Reality: While BlacKkKlansman effectively captures the tension and moral complexities of the operation, it incorporates fictional elements for dramatic purposes.

• Historical Context: Understanding the KKK’s deep-rooted presence in Colorado and the broader implications of infiltration operations provides a richer perspective on the fight against racism.

• Critical Reception: Both the film and the real-life story continue to spark discussions on historical accuracy, artistic license, and the portrayal of sensitive social issues in media.

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Relevant Quotes with Timestamps

• Josh Clark (03:00): "If you haven't seen this yet and you don't want it to be spoiled, don't listen to this episode first."

• Chuck Bryant (07:05): "This is not him. This is a cop named Ron Stallworth."

• Josh Clark (15:01): "He was expecting a pamphlet or something in return... He just wasn't planning to create a large investigation out of making contact through this ad."

• Chuck Bryant (20:28): "He was like, oh, boy, what do I do here?"

• Chuck Bryant (27:00): "He was trying to make it a more political organization, less of a terrorist organization under his guidance, but it was still the Ku Klux Klan."

• Josh Clark (31:40): "He does basically verify that. Yes, that's true. That really happened."

• Josh Clark (46:44): "Spike Lee has no comment about it whatsoever."

• Chuck Bryant (48:06): "He said, I pray for my demented, dissolute brother in response to Boots Riley."

• Josh Clark (42:02): "They did prevent three cross-burning ceremonies during that eight-month span."

• Chuck Bryant (49:28): "I am endorsing it as well. It has two thumbs up, as it were."

• Josh Clark (52:37): "If you want to know more about BlacKkKlansman, you should probably go see that movie."

---

Further Reading and Watching

• Film: BlacKkKlansman by Spike Lee
• Memoir: Black Klansman by Ron Stallworth
• Critique: Boots Riley’s public statements on the film’s historical accuracy

For more episodes and detailed explorations of similar topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

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Note: This summary adheres to the guidelines by excluding advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections, focusing solely on the substantive discussions related to BlacKkKlansman. Notable quotes are included with speaker attribution and timestamps to enhance engagement and provide context.

Transcript

[Josh Clark]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Josh Clark]

Hello, hello. Malcolm Gladwell here from Revisionist History.

[Chuck Bryant]

Did you know T Mobile for Business.

[Josh Clark]

Has an awards show specifically for their customers? It's happening October 20th in sunny Orlando, Florida and I'm encouraging you yes you to enter this event honors outside the box thinking that changes industries, communities and even the world. And if that doesn't sound great already, I'll be there as the keynote speaker. If your company did something next level using T Mobile for Business, you're eligible. Entries close July 31, so head to t mobile.com enter to learn more and nominate your team.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey everybody and welcome to the Summer Movie Playlist, the place where we group some fun movie content. Because it's summer movie season, we thought you might like this so we gave it a shot. And today you're going to be listening to the replay of our episode on Black Klansman, the true story behind that movie. It was a great movie. Love it. Love Spike Lee. And this is a great one. So I hope you enjoy the show. Welcome to Stuff you should know from howstuffworks.com.

[Josh Clark]

Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Jo Charles Bright, there's Jerry over there. You put the three of us together. It's Movie crush. I mean stuff you should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

This does have some stank on it, doesn't it? It's a movie stank.

[Josh Clark]

Uh huh. I know your game. It's cool.

[Chuck Bryant]

I didn't even ask you, have you seen Blackkklansman?

[Josh Clark]

I. I was like, I can't. I can't do this episode without having seen it. So I watched it last night.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, nice. Yeah. Good, huh?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah. I like his choice at the end. Like just completely pull a somersault on the viewer.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, sure. With that last bit.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Like, spoiler alert.

[Chuck Bryant]

Pretty powerful end to all spoilery.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. We should probably say that out of the gate. If you haven't seen this yet and you don't want it to be spoiled, don't listen to this episode first.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

But yeah, I guess now that we said that we can speak freely, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes.

[Josh Clark]

So if the entire movie was basically to disarm you up to the end, then I think it's one of the greatest movies I've ever seen in my life. And even if it wasn't, that wasn't the entire point of the movie. It was still great. And how he pulled it out at the end, I think.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Well, this was. I don't know if you remember, but this is the movie I saw in Perth, Australia. So that happens at the end. That big, you know, sort of gut punch of realism at the end. And I stood up and I was like, hmm. Like, wonder what they're thinking here in Perth.

[Josh Clark]

They're probably thinking, what just happened? What's wrong with America?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I'm going, hi, mate, good to see you. I'm not American, I'm Canadian.

[Josh Clark]

Can't you tell, bloke?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, goodness. Yeah, it was one of those things where I was like, I'm kind of slightly embarrassed right now.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

I enjoyed the movie, though. I thought to see Spike Lee, who just. He's one of my favorite filmmakers in his 60s, still just bringing the juice like this. I loved it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I also loved that it was controversial too, in that some people criticized Spike Lee for like not going far enough or maybe kind of glossing over some of the ugly aspects of the story.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, you want to get to that at the end, maybe.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. But we'll give it a pre mention shout out, which is what we just did.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. So we are talking about the true story of the film Blackkklansman, Spike Lee's movie that won the grand prize at the Cannes Film Festival. It's nominated for Academy Awards.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Three Oscars, I believe, including Best Picture.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I think picture director and supporting actor for who?

[Josh Clark]

I would guess Adam Driver. I didn't see.

[Chuck Bryant]

Really.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I was Surprised, because Denzel's son did a wonderful job as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

He loves that, being known as that.

[Josh Clark]

Right. I can't remember his first name, but you know, Denzel's son, he was like. There were several times when he was talking and I was like, oh, you are definitely Denzel Washington's son, man. Just the way he talked, the sound of his voice, but also his acting too. He's a good actor.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So, all right, Best picture, best supporting actor for Adam Driver, Best director and best original music score.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, nice.

[Chuck Bryant]

But yeah, I didn't know he was Denzel's son until after the movie.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I could see that.

[Chuck Bryant]

And he was a football player. Did you know that?

[Josh Clark]

I didn't. Who did he play for?

[Chuck Bryant]

He played for Morehouse here in Atlanta. He was a running back and then played NFL on the practice squad for the Rams and then eventually played a few years in NFL, Europe and the UFL until he hung up his cleats six years ago.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, that's cool.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Playing football in Europe has gotta be a surreal experience, you know?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Cause it's a soccer ball.

[Josh Clark]

Everyone's like, what are you doing? This is all wrong.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so should we way back it to the 1970s, the groovy 70s of Denver, Colorado?

[Josh Clark]

First, I guess we should say his name is John David Washington.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, sure.

[Josh Clark]

You were kidding around Denzel's son. Yes. So yeah, let's get in the way back machine and see go inspect their terrible low quality pot.

[Chuck Bryant]

So Ron Stallworth is the true to life character's name. Who there was a football player growing when we were growing up named John Stallworth. So I'm always wanting to say John Stallworth.

[Josh Clark]

This is not him. This is a cop named Ron Stallworth.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And he had a few designations that are pretty important. He was the first African American police officer to work for the Colorado Springs Police Department, which he joined as a cadet at the age of 19 in 72. And then a couple of years later on his 21st birthday. On his 21st birthday.

[Josh Clark]

That's what I saw. Yeah. June 18th, I believe.

[Chuck Bryant]

Nice. Was sworn in as a full on officer of the law.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And I'm not sure if like they just swear you in on your 21st birthday or if it just so happened that the Italian ceremony was on his 21st birthday. But regardless, it was a big deal. He's the first African American cop and then later on detective for Colorado Springs. So that's a big deal. Especially starting out at age 21 too. That takes a Lot of cajones, as they call it in Colorado.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I think they call those Rocky Mountain oysters.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. That is what they call him for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

So he worked undercover for about 30 years long. Great career as an undercover detective. But it was this case which only came out about four years ago when he wrote a book about it, about his career when he went undercover as a. Well, as a Klansman. But it's a little more complicated than that.

[Josh Clark]

It was a very complicated operation. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And this wasn't something that like, I mean, he even says in this NPR interview that he didn't. It was just a job at that particular point in time. And when that particular job ended, that is the undercover stint, which was about, what, eight or nine months, I moved on to something else, and it just happened by circumstance. So he didn't come in there with a bone to pick with the Klan, aside from probably every bone to pick that he had with the Klan, just as a black man in America.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And it would probably help to give a little background on the Klan at the time, because, you know, the Klan was very well known for being really big and really violent at over three waves is basically how the Klan history is divided.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Like, the first wave was when they were founded in the wake of the Civil War. Then they had. The second wave came around the nineteen teens, like 1915, I mean, that era. And then they had another big resurgence during the civil rights era in the 50s and 60s. But, you know, in between these waves and after that third wave, it's not like the Klan just went away. They kept on going. Their profile was lower. And maybe their. The public violence or terrorism that they were engaging in wasn't quite as pronounced, but they were still there. And in Colorado in particular, they had a really long history with the Klan where basically the city of Denver was under the control of the Klan back in the 20s, just 50 years before Ron Stallworth started working there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he got. When he got hired there, he got access to files, like secret FBI files.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And he got to go in and dig in and look at the history of the Klan in Colorado. And boy, like, you ain't kidding. They were in the House of Representatives. There were senators.

[Josh Clark]

Both senators were Klan's members.

[Chuck Bryant]

The mayor, Benjamin Stapleton, who the airport was named after until 95.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. His great grandson ran for governor on the GOP ticket this past election and lost to, who is Colorado's first ever openly gay Jewish governor.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, wow. Colorado's a weird state.

[Josh Clark]

It is an odd state. For sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

You got a lot of different ideologies all packed in together.

[Josh Clark]

It's very purple in all sorts of ways.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So Mayor Benjamin Stapleton was a Klan member. The governor, Clarence Morley, was a Klan member, the chief of police, which is. I mean, you don't want anyone in these positions to be Klan members. But I imagine the chief of police is one of the more problematic areas to have a person in that kind.

[Josh Clark]

Of control, particularly that one, too. He was picked by the Klan, the Colorado Klan, and basically foisted on Benjamin Stapleton, who was even like, wow, this guy's even too much for my tastes, and eventually fired him. But, like, the Klan picked the chief of police of Denver, Colorado, back in the 20s.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah. And they tried to recall Stapleton at one point. It didn't work. And when that effort failed, the Klan burned across on the top of Table Mountain as a celebration, a show of public celebration.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So the Klan has deep roots in an old story in Colorado, or at least they used to. And they were still very much around when. When Ron Stallworth started his. His investigation, or started as the. The. The first black detective in Colorado Springs. Right, that's right. And so he started out, I guess, as kind of plainclothes and was assigned undercover work pretty quickly just. Just by his. Just by being the only African American officer in the police force. Because Stokely Carmichael came to town once.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And this is in the film. We're gonna talk about a few differences between the movie and the real story, but he did, in fact, go to a speech and a rally by famous Black Panther Stokely Carmichael, and he was, you know, fully kitted out in his bell bottoms and wearing a wire. He picked his Afro out, and he, in fact, did make a point to meet him, just like he did in the film. And Carmichael did apparently say, arm yourself and get ready, because the revolution is coming. And I imagine Stallworth had some mixed feelings about that assignment.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I would guess so. It's kind of like I don't really have any idea of what he personally was like, because the movie mixed things up so much and, like, added layers that weren't necessarily there. So I have no idea what that experience would have been like for him, you know?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. One thing we do know is not true is the character in the film of Patrice, whom he meets at that rally, a young woman that he falls in love with. She was made up for the movie. Spike Lee wanted a love interest, basically, and to represent sort of the female black power movement as a whole. So she was completely made up. But she was terrific in the film. Yeah, yeah. Laura Harrier. She's in the new Spider man movies too. She's awesome.

[Josh Clark]

Cool. The new Spider Verse movie?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, no, no. That's animated.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, she could have been a voice actor, I guess, right? Yeah, no, she's in the new ones with the new kid.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

The Spidey Kid.

[Josh Clark]

The current Spider Man.

[Chuck Bryant]

Current Spider Man. Which is great. Those are good movies.

[Josh Clark]

I haven't seen any of them.

[Chuck Bryant]

You're not super into that stuff though, are you?

[Josh Clark]

Well, I saw the Infinity War One. He was in that, I think. Yeah, he's a bit of a smart alec, frankly.

[Chuck Bryant]

He is. So, okay. He does his research on the deep roots of the clan in Colorado. He goes undercover and then. I don't think he was even assigned this thing. I think he kind of came up with it on his own. By chance, almost. In October 1978. He was 25 at this point and he was looking through the local paper.

[Josh Clark]

Well, that was part of his assignment to gather intelligence by reading the paper.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, right, but I don't think. I think this was his idea to go undercover like this.

[Josh Clark]

That's the impression I have too.

[Chuck Bryant]

He seemed like a self starter in a lot of ways. So he found this ad, a classified ad in the paper for the Klan. Said get in touch if you want further information. He sent a letter posing as a white racist to a PO Box, just thinking that he would just get back some pamphlets or something. So he signed his real name, which is. He didn't really think that one through.

[Josh Clark]

No, he didn't. And he never really fully explains it, aside from. The best explanation I saw is that he didn't think anything was going to come of it. He thought he'd get, like you said, a couple of pamphlets and that would be that. And he just wasn't planning to create like a large investigation out of making contact through this ad. And again, we should probably state this. It was an ad in the paper for the clan to get in touch with the clan to get more info about the clan. And maybe you might want to join. Who knows, right? So he makes contact with him by sending off a letter. And if you ask me, if Spike Lee were directing this episode, he would put an ad break right here.

[Chuck Bryant]

That was good.

[Josh Clark]

Who are we to disagree?

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll be right back.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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[Chuck Bryant]

That. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Instead, about two weeks later, he got a call from the number. So he used everything as far as the undercover operation would go. He used all of his undercover info except for his name. So he got a call on his undercover phone line from a guy named Ken o' Dell. And he was pretty surprised to get this call, because, again, he was expecting a pamphlet. And instead, he had a real, live, living, breathing Ku Klux Klansman on the other end of the line saying, hey, I got your letter about hating black people and other minorities. Let's talk.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He was like, why? Are you interested? And Stallworth immediately just kind of goes into character. And I guess that's what you. You know, when you're undercover, you gotta be part improv actor to be able to pull that off.

[Josh Clark]

Well, he also. He said he drew from his own personal experiences. Cause he grew up in El Paso and encountered a lot of rac and I'm sure on the force in Colorado Springs, too. So he drew from his own experience as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So he basically right out of the gate says, well, you know, my sister's dating a black man, and every time he puts his hands on her pure white body, I cringe and I want to do something about it. And Ken o' Dell says, you sound like a great guy. Why don't you come on down and let's meet? Because you are just the kind of. Kind of dude we're looking for.

[Josh Clark]

You sound like real clan material.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I thought about maybe doing an episode on the Clan.

[Josh Clark]

I thought about that, too. And then I'm like, do you want to give them a platform?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. But then I thought. Or, you know, you could just talk about it and how stupid they are.

[Josh Clark]

All right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like, when I was a kid, I mean, of course, being in Georgia, that stuff was around. I never, like, saw it firsthand, obviously, but you heard things even, like, growing up in the 70s in Georgia. And I was always so scared of the whole thing because of the outfits and everything and the fire. And I was a good little Baptist boy, so there was a lot of fear. But then I got a little older, and I was like, they're just dumb rednecks wearing sheets.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sort of demystified it.

[Josh Clark]

That's the moment you become an adult.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. But I mean, of course, then I would later learn that they did real horrific things and took lives and, you know, are a terrorist organization.

[Josh Clark]

Right. But I think what you're saying is they made themselves up to be boogeymen.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Clark]

And they definitely can be that way, especially in a young mind or something like that. But. Yeah. Yeah. So back to the story. Ron Stallworth is on the phone with this guy named Ken Odell who wants to meet him to see if he'd like to join the Klan. And this is a big problem because I think, as we mentioned a couple of times, Ron Stallworth was African American.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He's like, oh, boy, what do I do here?

[Josh Clark]

Right. So he actually recruited a fellow detective who he, in his book, calls Chuck. That's all he's ever publicly referred to the guy as is Chuck. Wait, was it you, Chuck?

[Chuck Bryant]

It was not me. That gentleman is, I guess, either still undercover or just never wanted his identity out there.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So he. Yeah, he may still live in Colorado Springs. Who knows?

[Chuck Bryant]

Maybe he's on a case right now, for all I know.

[Josh Clark]

But. So this Chuck guy, he was recruited by Ron Stallworth to play Ron Stallworth to the Klan because Chuck was white. He was already an undercover narcotics agent. And apparently he was friendly enough with Ron Stallworth to say, yes, I will join this investigation, buddy. Let's do it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And here's the thing, though. He was. This wasn't his, like, primary case. So Chuck is undercover on a lot of different assignments. So he's not around as much as Stallworth needs him. So, like, in the movie, most of this stuff is done over the phone. Like, he spends a lot of time in this investigation on the phone speaking to these Klansmen who think that he's a white man. And when they needed to meet, he would send Chuck in. Who. And we'll get to the voice part in a minute, because that's when I was watching the movie. I was like, did none of these dummies not realize that they don't sound anything alike?

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, because they've been talking to them on the phone at length.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

But they had their first meeting. They got together, and I believe they met somewhere at first and then went to a bar as the second part of that meeting.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they met at a convenience. So the movie supposedly portrays this realistically. They. This Chuck guy, who is portraying Ron Stallworth to the clan, met. They met at a convenience store, and he was. Said he was told to get in the car, and then they drove to a second location. That's scary stuff. And also, he's also wearing a wire at the time. Like, that's something that. That the movie kind of gets across, but especially in, like, articles about the story don't necessarily dive into. This Chuck cat was, like, putting himself out there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, sure. As every undercover detective does.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So, I mean, Ron Stallworth is conducting this investigation. He's the mastermind of. He's leading this whole thing. But this poor Chuck guy has to go hang out with these, you know, violent Klans members or Klan members on, you know, like, fairly frequently, from what I understand. So hats off to him.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was definitely, like, it required both of their best efforts to get away with this for that long. It was quite the ruse. So Chuck meets with them eventually, earns their trust along with the phone work of Stallworth, and then he actually gets successfully admitted about two months later and got his little. I guess you get a little membership card.

[Josh Clark]

He still has it.

[Chuck Bryant]

He does. He did not throw it away like in the movie. He has it framed, in fact. And on the back of the card were six codes of conduct, one of which said, never discuss any Klan affairs with any plainclothes officer on a state, local, or national level.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

So there is a lot of comedy in the movie, if you haven't seen it. I mean, it's a serious thing that they're doing. But there are a lot of laughs as well.

[Josh Clark]

A lot of laughs. And a lot of, like, movie formula steps that Spike Lee purposefully follows, you know, very faithfully, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Josh Clark]

So there's a big point there that we left out, though, Chuck. So to get that membership card, supposedly, again, as they say in Colorado, the oysters on this guy. So he met. So the fake Ron Stallworth Chuck met with the Klan impressed them enough. Between the real Ron Stallworth's phone calls and Chuck's. Whatever Chuck was saying in person, all this combined made the Colorado Springs Klan members say, okay, we like you. We want you to be a member. Fill out this application, and we'll send it off to the. To the national director of. Of again, the Klan, we should say. I don't know if we've ever said this. The Klan calls itself the organization.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Rather than the Klan.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So they. And. And the guy who ran the thing, I don't know if he still runs it or not, but he definitely did at this time during this investigation, is a guy named David Duke, who, if you grew up in the 80s or I think even the 90s.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You were probably pretty familiar with David Duke. I believe he ran for president once, didn't he?

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know. I mean, he was. Wasn't he, the governor of Louisiana?

[Josh Clark]

I don't. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe he ran for that. But he was the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, and he was trying to make it a more political organization, less of a terrorist organization and more of a political organization under his guidance, but it was still the Ku Klux Klan. Like, there was still plenty of times when he was wearing robes and stuff he just never did in public. So during this time, he was the national director, the grand wizard of the kl. And when Ron Stallworth didn't get his application pushed through fast enough, he picked up the phone and called the national headquarters and ended up talking with David Duke and saying, like, hey, my application's taking a while. Is there anything you can do about it? And this kicked off like what Ron Stallworth would later characterize in a weird way as a friendship between him, a black undercover detective in Colorado, and David Duke, the Grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And by the way, I don't want to get angry emails from David Duke supporters. He was a Republican, Louisiana State Rep. He was not governor, but I think.

[Josh Clark]

He ran for some high office.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, he did. He was a candidate for the Democratic presidential primaries in the late 80s and then the Republican primaries in 92.

[Josh Clark]

He ran as a Democrat and then a. I could see that Solid south kind of thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I think he ran for state Senate and lost U.S. senate and lost U.S. house and lost. And he did run for governor of Louisiana, but he lost.

[Josh Clark]

Gotcha. Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

And you may be. If you're. If you didn't grow up in the 80s, you may have heard his name more recently because he fully endorsed Donald Trump's campaign. And after Donald Trump won, this was his quote on Twitter. Make no mistake, our people have played a huge role in electing Trump. So he was in the news again more recently.

[Josh Clark]

Well, he was also in Charlottesville, if not leading the rally to unite the right. Definitely a big speaker at it, a big part of it. And Spike Lee uses some of his footage from that rally to kind of get across that, you know, this stuff is still going on. This isn't from the 70s or earlier.

[Chuck Bryant]

How great was Topher Grace?

[Josh Clark]

He was wonderful.

[Chuck Bryant]

He was so good. And he looks a lot like David Duke of the seventies.

[Josh Clark]

He really does. Unfortunately for him, the stash and the Three piece suits and all that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he did a good job.

[Josh Clark]

But so, so, yeah, in the movie, Topher grace from that 70s show. Always. He will always be from that 70s show. Yeah, he plays. What do you want me to say? Like, he, he had a bit part in Ocean's Eleven or something. Brad Pitt's character was teaching him to play poker, I think.

[Chuck Bryant]

Forgot about that.

[Josh Clark]

You know that guy.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, he's that 70s show, of course.

[Josh Clark]

So. So he, he plays David Duke in the, in the movie. And there. This, this is, this is. It's really funny. Like Spike Lee added stuff that just. You, you would think, like. Well, yeah, of course. It's totally believable. Like Chuck being Jewish in real life.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And he actually wasn't. That's, that's fabricated by the movie. So you would just not even think twice about that. But it turns out that's not true. The stuff that seems the least true is actually the stuff that actually happened and for a very long time. Well, at the very least, over the course of this nine month investigation, there were multiple phone calls that were very cordial and friendly where Ron Stallworth would call David Duke imposing as a white Klan member and pump him for information. They would talk about, you know, David Duke's family and like, just have normal conversations that would inevitably turn back to racism and the, the weakening of the white race at the hands of, you know, the Jewish media and all the minorities who were taking over. And so it would, it would inevitably turn disgusting. But he, he said later, I think in the book and in interviews where if you could separate that stuff out, he was actually a pleasant person to talk to. And that's where that weird friendship that he characterized it as kind of developed from those conversations. But there is like, you couldn't make.

[Chuck Bryant]

This stuff up, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. But there is at least one video of David Duke basically admitting that, yes, this, he had conversations with this guy. He tries to downplay it, sure. But. But he does basically verify that. Yes, that's true. That really happened.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, and Duke's probably like, I can't remember every phone call I had with every random racist over the years.

[Josh Clark]

Right. There were a lot of them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Even the sky posing is one. All right, well, let's take another break and we're gonna go. We're gonna talk a little bit more about this weird David Duke relationship right after this.

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[Josh Clark]

They include a lot more people than.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we.

[Chuck Bryant]

Call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts.

[Josh Clark]

At Thrivent, we help plan your financial.

[Chuck Bryant]

Picture with the bigger picture in mind.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Because even though our business is helping.

[Chuck Bryant]

Guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent where Money Means more Connect with [e-mail] youm're great at protecting your own personal information. You probably even use things like two factor authentication, strong passwords and a vpn. But as much as you try to be in control of how your information is protected, there are lots of places that also have it and they might not be as careful as you are. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it With Lifelock, save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms apply. All right, so he's buddying up with David Duke on the phone. He's fooling everybody and he even, like you, get the sense that he does have a little bit of sense of humor. Stallworth because at one Point. He even goaded him on the phone a little bit. And this is in the movie. And it was totally true. He said, you know, Mr. Duke, have you ever worried about, like, a black man posing as a white man and infiltrating your organization? And Duke said, no. And he said, and this is from the NPR interview with Stallworth. He said, I can tell you're white because you don't talk like a black man. He said, you talk like a very smart, intellectual white man. And I can tell by the way you pronounce certain words. And he said, you know, give me an example. And he said, black people tend to pronounce the word r ara. And I can tell by listening to you that you're not black because you do not pronounce that word in that manner.

[Josh Clark]

It's science case closed.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, boy. He was so easily duped. I love it. And then they also did, in fact, meet in person. That part is true as well. Duke came to town and was having lunch. It was not a big ceremony like in the movie, but he came to town to have lunch. And the department assigned Stallworth to protect him. And so he goes there to the restaurant, introduces himself to protect him. Duke says, all right, I appreciate you them, you know, sending someone my way. And Chuck is undercover there as well. And he does, in fact, Stallworth pose with David Duke and gets a Polaroid with him.

[Josh Clark]

So this sounded to me like what was going on here. Like, I mean, like, you've got this investigation going. This takes place during this undercover investigation that Stallworth's conducting. You have a guy who's already, like, putting himself out there, Chuck as the white Ron Stallworth. And then the chief says, oh, yes, by the way, you, the only African American police officer in our entire squad. You go be David Duke's bodyguard for the day while he's in town in Colorado Springs. Like, that was just bizarre. And not only do it do that. That very, like, obvious overt act slap in the face to David Duke, which was great, but if it. But it could have jeopardized, like, this whole. This whole thing because you also. You had the guy portraying Ron Stallworth in the same room at the same lunch. It just seemed really strange. And again, that was one of those things where when you watch the movie and you would think, like, well, that's just made up. No, that actually took place, at least according to Ron Stallworth's memoirs. And that. That. That Chuck was in the room, was asked to take a picture by Ron Stallworth with David Duke. And the Grand Dragon, I guess, who must be like the head of the state in Colorado. And then at the last second when he was counting down, he put his arms around the shoulders of the two Klan guys and then got his hands on the picture. Apparently all of that was the case, but he's since lost picture.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And Duke really did try to get it back. And Stallworth like got to it quicker and said basically like, if you try to take this thing, I will have you arrested for assaulting a police officer. Don't do it, don't think about it.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So he said he lost it in a move he wished he had taken better care of it. But the idea that it was like, that's just so nuts. It tells you a lot about the investigation though, to me, like it makes you say like, okay, how seriously were they taking this investigation at the time? If Stallworth later said, all right, this is just another job to me. When I started it, I did the job and then when it was done, I moved on to another job. The fact that he didn't talk about it much until I think he spoke about it to the Press Once in 2006 in a Deseret News article and then didn't talk about it again until 2014 when his memoirs came out, it was just like a thing that they were doing that other people were doing other stuff too. And then to have that part of it, the idea that you would jeopardize it in that way just makes it seem like they weren't taking it as that big of an operation as the movie would like to believe. I'm not sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I think in real life it was a information gathering investigation. Like it was never we're going to take down the Klan in Colorado. It was let's infiltrate and get as much information and fact finding as we can. And in the end, after eight months, that's kind of what happened. He considers Stallworth considers it a success in that they fulfilled their mission. They did prevent three cross burning ceremonies during that eight month span or nine month span. And they did identify clan members who worked at norad, who apparently they said they, I mean these days they would be fired probably, but they said they reassigned them to like Greenland or something.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Because they had access to nuclear weapons. Apparently they had very high level clearance.

[Chuck Bryant]

At norad, which is scary.

[Josh Clark]

It is.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then they also found plans that they didn't act on. Like the whole bomb plot in the movie was made up for dramatic purposes, but they did find links between. For a plan to bomb a gay Nightclub and another plan to steal automatic weapons from an army base. Like an inside job. So it was, you know, it was valuable work they were doing for sure. It just wasn't like, we're gonna take the Klan down. Like, I don't think it was the department's big job at the time.

[Josh Clark]

No, certainly not. And in the memoirs and in the movie too, the reason that's given for the, the, the undercover operation to end is because it started to become successful. Ron Stallworth was nominated to lead the Colorado Springs chapter of the Klan. Like Ken o' Dell basically said, you should take my job. Everybody likes you. You're really good at this, you're smart, you should lead the Klan here. And the. The police chief of Colorado Springs. So that's it. Close it down. Burn all the evidence of this investigation. He apparently was worried about what a PR nightmare it would be if it got out that some of his detectives were in the Colorado Springs Klan. But at the same time, what strikes me as odd is that the FBI wasn't like, oh, well, geez, this guy is like being nominated to lead the Colorado Springs Klan. He's talking to David Duke like, really, this could not be kind of blown up into a larger investigation or a larger sting or something like that. And then second, and Ron Stallworth himself addresses this, there's very frequently a criticism of, well, if this was such a big operation and they found all this stuff, why wasn't anyone arrested? Why weren't there any arrests?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, that's what David Duke says, right?

[Josh Clark]

Not just David Duke. Stallworth says also that in law enforcement too, people question that, like, why wasn't anyone arrested? And he said it was an intel investigation and that's what they did, was they gathered stuff. But then he very rightly points out, like you said, like, the fact that they cross burnings alone makes it a worthwhile and valuable operation. I think just some people on the outside are saying, well, why wasn't more done? Why didn't more come out of this? You know, And I'm not quite sure what they're driving at, but there are, you know, Stallworth brings that up in an interview I read with him like that. People do ask that and wonder about that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And Stallworth is very proud of the fact that with the cross burnings, he was like, no, I can't remember the quote, but he said something about like, no children in Colorado Springs got to, you know, young black kids had to see crosses on fire during that eight or nine month period. And very proud of that. As he should be.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. For real.

[Chuck Bryant]

So I mentioned the voice earlier and the fact that he had a different voice, obviously, than Chuck. And he said one time, Only one time. And I think this was in the movie, wasn't it? Or was it? It's been a while.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was actually. No, it was. I remember.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So one time in the whole investigation, did someone say, like, wait a minute, you sound different. Chuck had just been at an in person meeting, came back, and then Stallworth wants to follow up on the phone with Ken o' Dell about something right afterward. So he had just heard Chuck's voice for whatever this whole meeting and was talking to him and he was like, wait a minute, you sound different. What's going on? And he just pulled it off. He coughed and said he had a sinus infection. And Ken Odell was like, oh, well, here's how you clear that up. And gave him some good sinus medication advice.

[Josh Clark]

Right? Yeah, they definitely appeared in the movie.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, you could not make this thing up, you know, it's crazy.

[Josh Clark]

No, for real. And apparently for a long time, Stallworth was saying like, yeah, it was just another job. It was just another operation. And I guess he told some fellow like law enforcement friends or whatever about it, and they're like, dude, you. This is a movie. You need to write this down. You need to get this out there. This is a one in a million story.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I wonder. One reason it didn't go bigger operation wise was because the sort of hackneyed way they got into it, like, he's the voice, but they're sending a white man.

[Josh Clark]

I can see that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like, I'm surprised he pulled it off for that long.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I could totally see that.

[Chuck Bryant]

One final thing, that did not happen in real life, but did happen in the movie. And this is what Wendy usually will change real life is to get a more satisfying ending. But Stallworth did not, unfortunately, reveal his true identity to David Duke like he does to hilarious effect in the film. Unfortunately.

[Josh Clark]

No. How sad to learn that he was saying, like. Yeah, he just. He didn't really talk about it until the 2000s. So David Duke didn't know until, I guess the memoirs came out.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, you know. Well, I guess we should talk about Spike Lee getting criticized. Boots Riley, director, who I had a movie crush, by the way.

[Josh Clark]

I know. What was his movie?

[Chuck Bryant]

Sorry to bother you. Was his film that he made.

[Josh Clark]

No, I mean his pick for movie crush.

[Chuck Bryant]

His pick was a movie called Mishima, A Life in Four Chapters.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it was a great film. And his, like, his knowledge on movies was deep. He turned me on to a lot of cool things.

[Josh Clark]

I thought for a very terrible second you were saying his pick was his own movie.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, no, but he, you know, Boots does not hold back on what he thinks. And while you would think that he would be like, oh, no, I'm gonna be a champion of Spike Lee and telling the story, he came out very publicly on Twitter and very intelligently criticized it. He didn't just bag on it, he wrote a big, long statement on exactly what he thought was wrong with it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He basically said, look, man, if you take away all the embellishments that Spike Lee added to this movie, what you have is a guy who's probably biggest assignment. And I'm not sure where he got this, but he focused on that Stokely Carmichael thing and the fact that Ron Stallworth had worked undercover to infiltrate the Black Power movement in Colorado Springs and that he had worked on that for like three years. And this Klan thing was just like a nine month thing. And he also criticized Spike Lee for making it. Making the movie seem like law enforcement and the Black Power movement came together to fight racism.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And that, like, that was a larger point or that that was historically accurate or something like that. It was a really interesting. It was like a three page essay that he posted on Twitter that made some good points. He basically said, from what I can tell, it looks like Ron Stallworth was working for COINTELPRO, which is the FBI's. It was their, their program to undermine groups, including Black power groups, which we mentioned it in the Black Panther episode. We did. And the CointelPro definitely deserves its own episode.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And it was, it was ended officially in 1971. But I think Boots Riley's point was it may have been officially ended, but the, the work was still going on. And if this guy was infiltrating black power, like groups in Colorado Springs, he was almost certainly trying to break them up one way or another, probably using COINTEL purposes or practices. And Ron Stallworth, he had a pretty great quote in response to it. He said, I pray for my demented, dissolute brother in response to Boots Riley. And Spike Lee has no comment about it whatsoever. So who knows? But you make a good point that, like, he's, he's. He's not just giving like, blind allegiance to anything.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure. Well, Spike did comment eventually.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I didn't see that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he was, he was in an interview and the first thing he said was like, hey, I'm a young man of 61 or something like that. And like, you know, young me might have kind of gotten into a war of words, but he's just not into that anymore. But he did say briefly something about, listen, I'm not gonna come out and say that all cops are racist and all cops do bad things, because they don't all do bad things. There's a lot of great cops. There's also bad Cops. And he kind of just couched it in that and then was like, but, you know, I'm not gonna be really talking about this anymore.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Yeah. I hadn't seen that he'd even had that comment.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So it's interesting stuff, and it's a good movie at the very least.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

You know, I think. I think Ron Stallware is like, man, they made a movie about my story that's pretty awesome. And at the very least, it's a pretty great movie. How about that?

[Chuck Bryant]

Totally.

[Josh Clark]

Totally. So if you. You got anything else?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got nothing else.

[Josh Clark]

If you want to know more about blackkklansman, you should probably go see that movie. And I guess we probably should have said at the outset, this episode is.

[Chuck Bryant]

A.D. oh, of course not.

[Josh Clark]

We just like the movie a lot. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, you could say it's an ad, but, like, no one gave us money or asked us to do this.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

But I am endorsing it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, there you go. I am endorsing it as well. It has two thumbs up, as it were.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Rest in peace, Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel.

[Chuck Bryant]

Two thumbs.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, so if already I already said that. How about some listener, man?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I'm gonna call this ping pong response from a former pro.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, nice.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, guys. Want to commend you on the job you did covering a sport that you didn't have an extensive, extensive knowledge of. I'm a professional table tennis coach and former player. I started playing in college. Thought I was really good until I was coerced to go to a tournament at Princeton University about 20 years ago, and I got destroyed. I didn't like that, so I sought out to coach, and the rest is history. You guys clearly did a lot of research to highlight the things that most novice players aren't aware of. But there were a few things I couldn't help but point out. Josh, you mentioned the components of the modern racket. You said the pimpled sign. Those are called pips, are for spinning the ball. That the smooth side is for defensive play, but the opposite is actually true. Oh, no, I didn't catch that, because I would have pointed that out. I thought everyone knew that.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you for that.

[Chuck Bryant]

You get good spin on that smooth side.

[Josh Clark]

For real?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh yeah, yeah. It's grippy all right. He said the smooth side is very tacky, as in sticky. And that combined with the sponge underneath allows the ball to sink in just enough so that the tacky service grips the ball and generates a lot of spin. Also, you can have really have any combination of rubber that you want as long as it's ITTF approved. Players are not restricted to having one smooth side and one with pips, but one side does have to be red and the other black. Most defensive players use pips on their backhand because pips vary the spin that is coming back at you and is very hard to read. Also, Chuck, you mentioned that defensive players are called chislers. They're actually called choppers as they chop the ball back with varying backspin. I've never heard the term chiselers. I'm wondering if it is extremely outdated.

[Josh Clark]

Maybe.

[Chuck Bryant]

I bet you that was the case. Yeah, I had old research jizzlas.

[Josh Clark]

That's what they called it in the 20s.

[Chuck Bryant]

He said. If you guys are ever in the Dunellyn, New Jersey area, stop by.

[Josh Clark]

We're there right now.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stop by the Lily Yip Table Tennis club and I'll gladly hook you guys up with a lesson.

[Josh Clark]

I will gladly humiliate you in person.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that is Thomas from Philly.

[Josh Clark]

Thanks Thomas. Much appreciated. We like it when we are gently corrected because we like to be right. So thanks for that. If you want to get in touch with us, let us know. I don't know. Something we got wrong about blackkklansman. Let us know. You can find all of our social links on stuffyou should know.com and as always send us an email to stuffpodcastousevworks.com.

[Chuck Bryant]

For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

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