Stuff You Should Know – "The Brutal History of Prison Labor"

Date: December 2, 2025
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts

Episode Overview

In this sobering episode, Josh and Chuck dig deep into the history and present reality of prison labor in the United States. They explore the origins of forced prison labor, the systemic loopholes that enabled it, the racial and economic underpinnings from the 19th century to today, and the modern debates around fairness, reform, and ethics. With characteristic candor and dry humor, the hosts unpack how labor in prisons has remained disturbingly exploitative, often disguised as rehabilitation or punishment, while tapping into powerful quotes, revealing statistics, and historical anecdotes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Prison Labor

• Early Motivations:
  • The concept that labor could serve as a humane alternative to harsher punishments (such as execution or corporal punishment) gained traction after Thomas More’s 16th-century work "Utopia".
  • Josh: “It turns out no Sumerians forward all the way into the Enlightenment period in Europe just killed people … Thomas Moore wrote a book called Utopia and said, there’s a better way people … What if we just put them to work?” (04:01)
• Aims of Prison Labor:
  • Deterrence from crime, rehabilitation of the person, and—most importantly—profit from free or cheap labor (05:24).

2. Colonial and Early American Context

• Transported Convicts:
  • 60,000 convicts were sent from Britain to America’s colonies before the Revolution, mostly for minor crimes.
  • Often, labor was in brutal conditions with sentences ranging from seven to fourteen years.
  • Indentured servitude was distinct from race-based slavery (07:29).

3. The Birth of the Penitentiary & Institutionalized Labor

• Penitentiaries, Not Just Jails:
  • Prisons as places of punishment (not just holding cells) emerged around the Revolution, with Quaker-inspired institutions meant for "redemptive suffering" (11:40).
• Rise of the Northern Model:
  • Auburn Prison in New York set the standard: businesses leased prisoners and buildings, effectively turning prisons into industrial plants (12:41).

4. The Post-Civil War South and the Loophole of the 13th Amendment

• 13th Amendment Loophole:

  • Officially abolished slavery, except as "punishment for crime". Southern states exploited this clause to maintain systems of forced Black labor (14:15).
  • Josh: “Not only was it okay, it’s enshrined in the Constitution that slave labor is legal in prisons.” (14:44)

• Black Codes and Convict Leasing:

  • Laws criminalized Black life and funneled newly freed people into forced prison labor, often leased back to plantations or corporations.
  • Alabama (by 1898, 73% of state revenue from convict leasing) and Louisiana were key offenders (18:35; 21:17).

5. The Chain Gang Era

• Public Penal Labor:
  • Prisoners, often chained together, performed hard manual labor such as road building in the South through the early 20th century.
  • “If you ran into … a chunk of Stone Mountain … you would just set a bunch of convicts to work on it with sledgehammers.” (31:49)
• Racial Dynamics:
  • The system was heavily racialized, with disproportionate targeting and abuse of Black prisoners.
  • The threat of chain gangs led Black workers to accept exploitative jobs as a lesser evil (33:07).
• Cultural Exposure:
  • Accounts and media such as "I Am a Fugitive from a Georgia Chain Gang" (1932) and reporting by figures like Bayard Rustin helped bring these abuses to the public eye (34:28–35:22).

6. Labor Reforms and Modernization

• New Deal Changes:
  • Labor unions and public outrage led to restrictions on private use of prison labor, but Unicor (Federal Prison Industries) was established to employ federal prisoners making products for government agencies (24:13).

7. Modern Mass Incarceration and Labor

• Incarceration Boom:
  • Between 1970–2008, the US population grew by 50% but its incarcerated population grew by 700% (40:16).
  • US has one of the world’s highest incarceration rates—Louisiana leads states with 1,000 per 100,000 people; Black Americans imprisoned at 900 per 100,000 (41:02).
  • This massive boom is due to policies like Nixon’s "war on drugs" and "tough on crime" rhetoric, not increased violent crime (42:41).
• Present-Day Labor:
  • ~800,000 incarcerated people do some form of labor; most work for prison operations, others for state or private industry; only 2% work for Unicor (43:04).
  • Dangerous jobs sometimes yield higher pay (CA wildfire fighters: $2–$5 per day plus $1/hr while fighting fires) (45:09).
  • Private industry and supply chain use persists, often under the radar, despite stated company policies (46:12).

8. Compensation, Rights, and Exploitation

• Low or No Pay:
  • No federal law requires pay for prison labor; state rates average 52¢ an hour—often less (47:20).
  • Even when earning more, prisons often deduct for room, board, or restitution, so actual take-home is minuscule (48:33).
• No Legal Protections:
  • Prison workers are not covered by OSHA or Fair Labor Standards, as courts consistently find they’re not “employees” (50:23).
  • US is among a handful of countries (with China, Russia, etc.) not signed onto the Forced Labor Convention of 1930, due to its reliance on subcontracting prisoner labor to private industry (51:58).
• Punishments for Noncompliance:
  • Prisoners refusing to work can lose family visits, be transferred to higher security, or face other punishments (52:01).
• Calls for Reform:
  • Most reformers seek: voluntary labor, market wages, useful skills, and employee protections—mirroring European models (51:58).

9. Economic Implications and Final Thoughts

• Economic Rationale for Reform:
  • Prison labor saves the system ~$15 billion/year and produces $2 billion in goods/services.
  • Paying market wages could reduce family burden, improve post-release earnings, and, according to studies, return $2.40–$3.16 to society for every $1 paid in wages (54:22).
• Ongoing Problems:
  • Reports indicate some prisoners must scavenge guards’ leftover food to avoid hunger (49:36).
  • Wages earned in prison don’t apply toward Social Security or Medicare (58:32).
• Josh: “Private prisons are able to … deduct way more. But the other problem with it too is that they’re at the same time getting tax breaks for leasing out their convicts … it’s quite a racket from what I can tell.” (48:59)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the 13th Amendment’s Loophole:
  “That tiny provision … said that if you’re a convicted prisoner, you can be punished with slave labor. That’s OK. And not only was it OK, it’s enshrined in the Constitution …”
  — Josh (14:44)

• On Exploitation’s Evolution:
  "Supposedly in the 1930s, thanks to the New Deal, America became enlightened enough that we moved on past convict leasing. ... Prison labor, working for the prison or working for the state, that was still a-OK."
  — Josh (23:22)

• On Rehabilitation versus Reality:
  “There is redemption in labor. So we’re not saying do away with it, but it needs a lot of reforms … It should be the kind of labor that’s going to help them get jobs on the outside where they learn valuable skills. They should be paid fairly … and they should get protections that any worker gets in the United States.”
  — Josh (49:36)

• On Present-Day Challenges:
  “There's no federal law that says that someone has to be paid for work if they're a prisoner … I think the average pay for a prisoner in the US is 52 cents an hour.”
  — Chuck (47:20)

• On Racial Inequity:
  “Louisiana leads the way at 1,000 per 100,000. And the rate for Black Americans is 900 per 100,000.”
  — Chuck (41:06)

• Economic case for change:
  “Every dollar spent on prisoners wages would add up to a society-wide return of $2.40 to $3.16.”
  — Chuck (54:22)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Prison labor origins, Thomas More/Utopia – 04:05
• Indentured servitude in the colonies – 07:29
• Penitentiaries and Auburn Model – 11:47, 12:41
• 13th Amendment loophole & Black Codes – 14:15–16:10
• Convict leasing’s peak in Alabama – 18:35
• Conditions in chain gangs, cultural impact – 29:23, 33:07, 34:28
• Unicor and modern prison industries – 24:13
• Mass incarceration era statistics – 40:16
• Modern prison work & pay rates – 43:04–47:20
• Lack of labor protections – 50:23
• International comparisons and UN treaties – 51:58
• State constitutional bans and legal loopholes – 52:01
• ROI for paying prisoners fair wages – 54:22
• Prison labor and Social Security – 58:32

Conclusion

Josh and Chuck’s deep dive traces a continuum: from colonial exploitation and race-based legal manipulations, to modern mass incarceration and concealed forms of labor exploitation, often justified in the names of rehabilitation or economic efficiency. They highlight the ongoing debates around reform, the need for dignity and protections for incarcerated workers, and the persistent financial motives and racial injustices underpinning US prison labor.

For further listening:

• Black Codes episode (Jan 2022)
• 13th Amendment discussion
• Previous episodes on mass incarceration and private prisons

This summary brings you the crux of a thought-provoking SYSK episode: an unsettling look at how profit, punishment, and power have intertwined—past and present—in the world of prison labor in America.