The Cliffs Notes on Cliffs Notes

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Stuff You Should Know" – The Cliffs Notes on Cliffs Notes

Episode Details:

• Title: The Cliffs Notes on Cliffs Notes
• Hosts: Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant
• Release Date: May 15, 2025
• Production: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction to Cliffs Notes

[01:20] Josh Clark opens the episode by introducing the topic: Cliffs Notes. He clarifies the correct branding, emphasizing that it is "Cliff's Notes," named after its founder, Cliff Hillegast, rather than "CliffsNotes."

[01:46] Chuck Bryant adds, “It has never been Cliff Notes... It’s Cliff's Notes," highlighting the evolution of the brand’s name over time—from “Cliff’s Notes” with an apostrophe to “Cliffs Notes” as a single word with a capital "N."

Origins and Founder: Cliff Hillegast

[04:25] The hosts delve into the background of Cliff Hillegast, correcting a previous misstatement about his name. Chuck mentions, “Clifton Heath Killigas, his name was Cliff Gentleman...,” before clarifying the correct name and providing biographical details.

[05:13] Josh summarizes Cliff's intellect and work ethic: “Cliff Hillegast was a very smart guy... he was said to read five books a week, basically his whole life.”

[05:50] The discussion covers Cliff’s career trajectory, from his education in physics and math at Midland Lutheran College to his role at the Nebraska Book Company. Chuck remarks, “Go Cornhuskers,” showcasing his enthusiasm for Cliff’s Nebraska roots.

The Birth of Cliffs Notes

[07:05] Chuck narrates how Cliff’s encounter with Jack Cole in Toronto led to the creation of Cliffs Notes. Jack Cole proposed selling condensed pamphlets of Shakespeare's plays in America, and Cliff took the entrepreneurial leap.

[08:31] Cliff assumed significant financial risks, including a $4,000 loan to print 33,000 copies of the initial "Coles Notes." “He and his wife Catherine and their three young kids... were selling pretty good,” Chuck notes.

Controversies and Ethical Considerations

[09:19] Josh raises ethical questions: “Cliff Hillegast took the intellectual property of Jack Cole and took it as his own...” This sparks a discussion on whether Cliff’s actions constituted plagiarism.

[10:08] Chuck empathizes with Jack Cole, saying, “I do feel bad for Cole, though,” acknowledging the moral ambiguity of Cliff’s business practices.

Business Growth and Branding

[11:13] The hosts discuss the rapid growth of Cliffs Notes, from selling 58,000 copies within six months to becoming a staple in American education by the 1960s.

[16:46] They highlight the iconic yellow and black design of Cliffs Notes, praising it as a “genius branding move” that made the study guides instantly recognizable in bookstores.

[18:43] Josh credits effective advertising in the 1960s, targeting high school and college students through publications like Playboy and Scholastic Journal, contributing to Cliffs Notes’ widespread adoption.

Decline and Adaptation

[22:27] Chuck explains the challenges Cliffs Notes faced in the late 1960s and early 1970s, including a shift in educational trends toward pass/fail grading systems, leading to a significant drop in sales from 2.8 million to 1.8 million units.

[23:03] Josh humorously critiques the introduction of cassette versions of Cliffs Notes, which failed to resonate with the audience: “Cliff's cassettes... did not go over well.”

Legacy and Modern-Day Cliffs Notes

[26:06] The conversation shifts to Cliff Hillegast’s later years, his contributions to the Nebraska community, and his legacy, including his support for the Museum of Nebraska Art.

[28:16] Chuck notes the eventual sale of Cliffs Notes to IDG Books in 1983 for $14 million and traces its subsequent ownership changes, ultimately being acquired by CourseHero in 2021.

Cliffs Notes Today

[34:11] Josh explores the current state of Cliffs Notes, mentioning that while physical copies are still available (often pre-owned on platforms like Amazon), their main revenue now comes from their website, which offers both free content and a subscription model at $9 per month.

[35:14] They discuss the depth of the online resources, with Josh highlighting that even the free versions provide substantial summaries and analyses, though the paid subscription offers more comprehensive materials.

Ethical Use and Educational Impact

[38:55] The hosts debate the morality of using Cliffs Notes as shortcuts for academic work. Josh cites Cliff Hillegast’s original intent: “Students who use them to avoid reading the actual material... are denying themselves the very education that they are presumably giving their most vital years to achieve.”

[39:49] Chuck shares personal experiences, admitting to using Cliffs Notes in high school: “I did use Cliff's Notes. That was in high school. Did not use them in college as an English major.”

[40:17] They highlight the mixed reception among educators, noting that some teachers endorsed Cliffs Notes for struggling students, while others, like the fictional Mrs. Krabappel, humorously opposed them.

Competitors and Cultural Influence

[47:09] The discussion extends to Cliffs Notes’ competitors, including SparkNotes (founded in 1999) and Shmoop (founded in 2008), as well as creative spinoffs like Thug Notes—a YouTube series that humorously summarizes classic literature.

[48:24] Chuck praises Thug Notes for making literary analysis accessible and engaging: “Thug Notes... lays down some real truth on some of these as well.”

Listener Interaction and Conclusion

[50:52] The episode concludes with listener mail from Reagan, a theatrical costume designer, who praises the hosts’ coverage of Broadway-related content, encouraging further expertise sharing.

[51:20] Josh and Chuck wrap up by acknowledging their support network, including special thanks to contributors like Livia and Mental Floss, and encourage listeners to engage with them via email.

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Notable Quotes

• Josh Clark [04:25]: “Cliff Hillegast was a very smart guy... he was said to read five books a week, basically his whole life.”

• Chuck Bryant [09:41]: “Cliff did not like this, and they took out a full page ad. I guess he passed away by this point, but the company didn't like this, and they took an ad in the Villanova student newspaper, called it censorship.”

• Josh Clark [38:55]: “Students who use them to avoid reading the actual material or having to go into class for discussion groups... are denying themselves the very education that they are presumably giving their most vital years to achieve.”

• Chuck Bryant [47:36]: “Thug Notes... they explain censorship and book burning and Stalinism and double talk and all that stuff in a very fun way.”

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Insights and Conclusions

• Educational Tool vs. Academic Shortcut: While Cliffs Notes were intended to aid understanding, they have been criticized for enabling academic dishonesty and reducing the incentive to engage deeply with original texts.

• Brand Evolution: Cliffs Notes successfully navigated changes in ownership and educational trends, maintaining relevance through strategic branding and adaptation to digital platforms.

• Cultural Impact: Beyond serving as study aids, Cliffs Notes have become cultural icons, inspiring competitors and parodies that reflect their pervasive influence on literature education.

• Ethical Considerations: The legacy of Cliffs Notes centers on balancing their utility as educational tools against the potential for misuse, emphasizing the importance of fostering genuine literary appreciation.

• Modern Adaptations: The shift to online platforms and subscription models demonstrates Cliffs Notes' ability to evolve with technological advancements, though questions about their role in contemporary education persist.

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Conclusion: In this episode of "Stuff You Should Know," Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant provide a comprehensive exploration of Cliffs Notes, tracing its origins, growth, and enduring presence in the educational landscape. They navigate the complexities of its ethical implications, cultural significance, and adaptation to modern mediums, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of this iconic study aid.

Transcript

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

Youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And Jerry's here too. And this is the brief overview of Cliff Notes.

[Chuck Bryant]

We're not going to do the exhaustive encyclopedic documentary length CliffsNotes episode?

[Josh Clark]

Nope. We are doing the brief overview of Cliff's Notes. I said it wrong the first time. It's never been CliffsNotes. It's Cliff's Notes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean the first thing we should probably say because Jerry in the pre show banter even got it wrong. Even though I said, jerry, we're doing an episode on Cliff's Notes. She said, I used to get Cliff Notes. It's not Cliff Notes. I used to say Cliff Notes too in high school. But it is Cliff's Notes as in the person's name was Cliff. As we'll soon find out, it used to have an apostrophe. Then it just became Cliff's two words notes without an apostrophe. Then it became Cliff's Notes. All one word but with that N capitalized.

[Josh Clark]

So stylish.

[Chuck Bryant]

But it has never been Cliff Notes.

[Josh Clark]

No, but everyone basically in the world calls it Cliff Notes, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

And we should tell everyone what this is if you don't know. I do know that they went around the world A little bit. But it feels like a very American thing. It is a study aid. It's basically sort of. I was about to say a CliffsNotes version of the book. Cause it's so in the lexicon now. But it's like if you went to read a book in high school in the 80s, like the Scarlet Letter, and you're like, oh, God, do I really have to read the Scarlet Letter? You would go to a store and you would buy this yellow and black, very thin pamphlet. I don't remember how much they were then. They're only about $8.99 now.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And it would contextualize the work. It would summarize the work, give you character descriptions, basically everything you needed to know the night before to pass the test or write the paper.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And like you said, it's entered the lexicon. Most people can recognize it just that from that yellow and black cover. It looks like a Men at Work album cover.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Or striper.

[Josh Clark]

Striper. Yes. Very nice. Maybe that's where striper got it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Maybe.

[Josh Clark]

And then. Yeah, just most people in America know what we're talking about. I do wonder how. How well known it is around the world, though.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, I think it ended up going to 39 countries. But it just feels like a very lazy American thing, especially for Gen Xers to be like, I'll just get that. And that's fine.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Because it's been long. Basically, from the outset, criticized for basic. For being this thing that students read and use instead of actually reading the material, the book that they're supposed to read that actually ran afoul, I guess, of what the guy who invented these things intent was. He always said, no, this is not what that's for. You're supposed to read the regular book. You're supposed to read the Scarlet Letter, Chuck. And you're supposed to. Whether you like it or not doesn't matter. And then you get the CliffsNotes and you understand it that much more fully. That was the point.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And of course, we're talking about Keith Hillegas. Oh, I'm kidding. Clifton Heath Killigas, his name was Cliff Gentleman, was a true cornhusker. As we'll see. He was born in 1918 out in the rural sticks of Nebraska. His father was a mail carrier, and he was a. A very smart kid, and I would assume a smart adult because he studied physics and math at Midland Lutheran College and then was going to grad school for physics and geology at the University of Nebraska. Go Cornhuskers. Okay, but dropped out in 1939 to marry a classmate named Catherine Galbraith. At which time he got a job at Long's College Books as a clerk. And that company would later become the Nebraska Book Company.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So, long story short, Cliff Hillegast was a very smart guy. I saw that. He was said to read five books a week, basically his whole life.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or did he just read five quick summaries?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. I just don't know. Because he's dead now and we can't ask him.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. But he worked at the NBC Nebraska Book Company up until World War II when he went to the Army. He was a meteorologist for the Army Air Corps. So again, pretty smart dude. Ended up a captain. And his wife Catherine worked as a clerk for the Manhattan Project. So she was sharp as a tack as well.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Also, I want to give big ups. Are we still saying big ups?

[Chuck Bryant]

Heck, yeah, man. We're old people. We can say whatever we want.

[Josh Clark]

I want to give big ups to Livia, who helped us out with this. Because there is not a lot of information on CliffsNotes out there. Yeah, it's just not out there. You can get, appropriately enough, the brief overview of Cliff Notes and its history. But to really dig in and get the details, you gotta get out there. So thanks to her for that.

[Chuck Bryant]

She did it. I think she broke into the estate of the Hilligast estate and stole a diary.

[Josh Clark]

She did?

[Chuck Bryant]

I think so.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And then also, I want to give big ups to Mental Floss, too. Because they did some really good reporting on it, too. Some good digging.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. All right, so back to Cliff Hillegas. He was in the army then after the war, he went back to his old job at the Nebraska Book Company.

[Josh Clark]

We knew you'd be crawling back.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And he helped transform them into a wholesale textbook distributor. And he ended up sort of traveling all over the country buying and selling used textbooks. When a little trip to Toronto, Canada, ended up being quite a good thing for the course of his life, Right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, depending on who you're talking about. It wasn't that good of a thing For a guy named Jack Cole, the guy who we had dinner with in Toronto, who was a bookstore owner. And Jack Cole was like, hey, man, I'm going to let you in on this business opportunity. I have these condensed pamphlets that basically are analysis of Shakespeare's plays. I publish 16 of them. And. And I think the quote from Cliff Hilligast was, Jai Cole said. Yes, I know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

He said, I want you to be the American distributor of these pamphlets, which I call Coles Notes. And Clifton Hillegast said, all right, I'll give it a shot, and started selling these things, publishing them and selling them in America. And what happened from Coles Notes, Chuck?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, first thing we should say is he took great risk. And I'm not, like, you know, weighing in one way or the other of the ethics of any of this. But Hillegast did take upon great financial risk. He got a loan for $4,000 to make this happen, close to 50 grand today, and printed up 33,000 copies of these Kohl's Notes himself. And he and his wife Catherine and their three young kids, like, packed and shipped these things in their house, out of their home for a little while and were selling pretty good. And then what happened, Josh?

[Josh Clark]

Well, yeah, so they were paying royalties to Jet Cole. That was the, that was the setup. And within the first year, I guess Hillegast was, like, nuts to that. I'm just going to rename these things Cliff Notes, Cliffs Notes. So they went from Coles Notes to Cliffs Notes. I think the, the Cole was heard to say, and Cliff was like, I can't hear you. I'm down in Nebraska. So I, I just see people gloss over this all the time. Like, it's. I, I just don't understand why it's not at all controversial, because he clearly just took. He just lifted the intellectual property of Jack Cole and took it as his own. If to, to be fair, he rewrote and phased out the Cole's Note stuff, but the whole concept and even basically the name was the same.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I would argue that maybe the name is intellectual property, but I think in a court of law, a judge would say, like, you can't claim, like, doing a condensed version of a book as, like, an original idea that no one else can do. Because there were summaries before this. They didn't invent the idea of a literary summary. You know what I'm saying?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, but if Law and order has taught me anything, it's that you can't predict what a judge is going to rule.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, that's true. And I do. I'm not, like, going to bat for Cliff. I'm just saying that I don't think that's one of those ideas. You can say, like, I hold the idea for condensing a long novel into a shorter version.

[Josh Clark]

No, I understand. And I'm not trying to, like, gun him down. I just hadn't gotten my gotcha today. So that was.

[Chuck Bryant]

I do feel bad For Cole, though.

[Josh Clark]

If it helps, I do too. And I saw nowhere what his. His reaction was or what he did. I made up his quote of that was a joke. But yeah, everybody just walks right past that stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

And I refuse to.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, people, I feel like everyone is called out online for doing something like this, but old Cliff gets a pass, I guess because everyone got through school because of him.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's the thing. So, yeah, this is not to paint him as a bad guy. If you want to know about him, he treasured letters that he got from students thanking him for helping them get through school, which you and I can attest. Getting a letter and email like that is really great. So I guess that makes us really great too. If I'm saying that that makes him a good guy. That's wonderful. That really worked out.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He sold a lot of these pretty quickly though. I do like how Livia put. He gradually phased out the original material. It seemed like that happened within that first year, but he was. I also couldn't find when he stopped paying the royalties. Was that during the first year or two?

[Josh Clark]

I'm guessing when it became Cliff's Notes, he stopped paying royalty.

[Chuck Bryant]

Probably right. But nevertheless, between the start of when he started doing that in August of 1958 and just yet six months later at the end of that year, he had sold 58,000 copies of these book summaries and pamphlets. And by 1964, but six years later, he was doing all this on the side from the Nebraska Book Company. He was able to quit that job by 64. And just the 60s were a big decade, period. He quit that job in 64. He changed the name in the 60s from Cliff's Notes without the apostrophe to Cliff's Notes. Big, big deal. And then he got divorced in 1966 and got remarried.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Later on he got remarried to a woman named Mary.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And I guess he adopted her two kids. Another thing that shows he's a stand up guy. Really. The only blemish on his entire lifetime is how he treated Jack Cole.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's true. But did those kids. Biological father get royalties on those children?

[Josh Clark]

Named them Cliff's kids. They were originally Jack Coles because he stole his wife Mary.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man. And everyone just glosses right over there.

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Chuck Bryant]

Should we take a break?

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll take an early break here because this one's probably a little bit shorter. And we'll talk about the early days of that company right after this.

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[Josh Clark]

We learned so much stuff from Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know. So we should say, despite legendarily reading five books a week, Hillegast didn't write any of the Cliff's notes. He was more like the business guy. He had the idea you would put in scare quotes. And he was running the whole operation. He had the vision for it. Right. So he hired other people and initially hired literature teachers. Like hardcore. Like. Like hardcore. Like they have crew cuts and wear like army boots and stuff, like that kind of lit teacher. But he realized something very quickly that I'm sure developed. A hardcore lit teacher who's been teaching the same books. Been teaching A Scarlet Letter for. I think we should not mention a single other book besides the Scarlet Letter in this episode. What do you think?

[Chuck Bryant]

Agreed.

[Josh Clark]

All right, let's give it a shot. These hardcore lit teachers who have been teaching a Scarlet Letter. The Scarlet letter. Sorry, for 20 years, technically, I just named another book Chuck. Yeah. For 20 years. These people know too much. They understand the book too well. They know all the details that they just get mired down when they're writing a synopsis or something. It's just too intense for the audience, which is high school and. And college readers, usually undergrad readers.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Pump your brakes. I'm trying to sell these to lazy kids.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like, broad overview, please. He ended up with grad students mainly saying that they did the best work, which makes sense.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. They work for free, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. But we mentioned the iconic yellow and black design. That was something Cliff thought of himself. I remember the Mountain Cliffs even being on the editions I had when I was, you know, a student in the 80s. I don't think they have that anymore, but they have these yellow and black stripes that just. It looks. I mean, it's a genius branding move just to do that simple little thing. Because Cliff's notes were so identifiable from across a bookstore, the night before a test or something, you could zoom over to that spinning rack of yellow and black pamphlets.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they would. You'd walk in the bookstore and they'd call to you, don't bother Come buy me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

So one of the big things, I didn't know this, but one of the big reasons CliffsNotes became the brand that it is today, which is to say iconic, is because they advertise a lot in the 60s and they very wisely went to where their readership was. They advertised in 17, they advertised in Playboy, they advertised in, well, the Scholastic Journal. I don't know how much of a return on investment they got on that. But they also advertise in college newspapers.

[Chuck Bryant]

Bingo.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And so like, if you're, if you're going to high schoolers and college kids and saying, hey, we have something that you. It's going to keep you from having to read a Scarlet Letter. The Scarlet Letter. Like, don't you want that? And they say, yes, I want that so bad. Like, it just, it just rooted that business and simultaneously made it take off like a rocket.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And you would open up the Scarlet Letter, Cliff's notes, and it would say, the letter is a. The end.

[Josh Clark]

That's why I keep calling it a Scarlet Letter.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, probably. Cause it is literally a.

[Josh Clark]

A for awesome.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, not quite. One thing Cliff had in his corner was all his work for the Nebraska Book Company and being a traveling salesperson and all these relationships he had with bookstores because he owned the market for this. 80% of the market for guides to literature belonged to Cliff. Because that was just it. I mean, I think for a long time, I mean, competitors would come along and we'll talk about that. But I think he had a number of years, maybe even decades, where everyone was just like, well, no, there's already CliffsNotes, like, why even bother? He owns it.

[Josh Clark]

Right. That wasn't enough to keep people from coming along as competitors, but it does seem like they really didn't start to emerge until much, much later in history. Yeah, like, like decades and decades on.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

One of the things that CliffsNotes have long been criticized for though, is like they write the, they write the book on the Scarlet Letter and that's that like, like what you are reading could have been written by a grad student in 1968.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Even though you just bought this thing like last week, that's not the case any longer. It's changed hands. And as it's changed hands several times, they've definitely been dusted off and brushed up and all those idioms. But for a very long time it was like, this is really old fashioned stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Especially like the language they use, the points they're making. A lot of one of the things that CliffsNotes was known for is putting works of literature, specifically the Scarlet Letter, into a historical context. And that can change as people understand history more. But if you don't go update it, it's the understanding of it in 1968.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. You know, we mentioned the 60s. You just mentioned 68, for crying out loud.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Being a kind of a big decade for the business. It was toward the end of that decade that things got a little rocky. It was around 1969 that a couple of things happened to sort of dampen the business, I guess, a little bit. And this is something I didn't know, but apparently starting in 1969 and through the first bit of the 70s, the classics people are like, hey, all these new teachers came along. They're like, hey, we don't need to read the Scarlet Letter anymore. We're gonna read another unnamed book that's a little more current. And so the classics kind of fell off a little bit. And apparently a lot of high schools and colleges started the pass fail thing. So a kid wasn't as incentivized to ace a test. They were just incentivized to pass a test. So they're like, I don't even need the Cliff Notes. I can just kind of fake my way through and pass this thing. As a result, they dropped about a million bucks a year in sales up until, like, the mid-70s when they were like, oh, my God, what were we thinking? We gotta put the Scarlet Letter back on the reading list, and we have to grade these kids according to their grade. This pass fail thing is not doing anyone any favors.

[Josh Clark]

It's chaos.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's chaos.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Not only did they drop a million in sales, they dropped a million units in the mid summer.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I thought that was sales.

[Josh Clark]

No, like, the number of sales that they made dropped from 2.8 million to 1.8 million.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I was pretty sure that was dollars, but. And I'm sure if you're positive that it's units, we'll move on.

[Josh Clark]

78% positive.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay. Well, that tracks because I was 22% positive.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, good. Yeah. And Cliff Hilligast was like, you hippies for that huge loss in sales for the mid-70s.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So there was another stumble that they made Cliff's cassettes, which was a good idea, if you ask me. It was Cliff's notes, but in a cassette version that kids could pop into their Walkman and walk around listening to.

[Chuck Bryant]

Want to be lazier?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, exactly. You don't even have to walk around. You can lay there and listen to this stuff with your eyes closed and your hands soaking in Palmolive.

[Chuck Bryant]

If you don't want to read the Scarlet Letter and you don't want to read the 47 page summary, how about you just pop in that cassette and lay on your bed and smoke some grass.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And listen to Ed Asner tell you what the Scarlet Letter means. Oh boy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Was that planned or did you just come up with that idea?

[Josh Clark]

I just came up with that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, that's so great. This was only about a six month thing. It did not go over well, despite being a pretty good idea. That got me thinking about just audiobooks or books on tape. And when that was a thing. Apparently that started in 1932. Oh yeah, yeah. The American foundation for the Blind opened up a recording studio. So it was a thing. But I feel like it didn't really take off until much, much, much later.

[Josh Clark]

Until the Walkman. Did you have a Walkman, by the way?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, of course I did.

[Josh Clark]

Nice. I did too. I associate it specifically with my cassette of Huey Lewis and the New Sports.

[Chuck Bryant]

One of the great records of all time.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it is really good.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't think I ever had a disc, man.

[Josh Clark]

I didn't either.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think I went straight from Walkman to. Geez, I guess ipod as far as walking around.

[Josh Clark]

Oh yeah, I never had an ipod. I went from Walkman to iPhone, I guess.

[Chuck Bryant]

I had the first ipod.

[Josh Clark]

Wow.

[Chuck Bryant]

So yeah, I had the first. Not the, you know, not Steve Jobs ipod, but you know, the first edition. I still have it. It still works.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, do you really? Wow, that's really saying something.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I put pictures of it on my Instagram not too long ago actually, because I found it, charged it and I just put up the opening screen because the first Walkman had everything in alphabetical order just on the screen when you opened it. And boy, it was eight or nine bands locked in time from I guess like 2000 or something. Whatever that was.

[Josh Clark]

That's awesome. Yeah, I didn't have one of those.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm sorry. I'm going to get you a. Maybe a nano.

[Josh Clark]

No need. Those things were tiny though. They were like the size of a thumb of steak.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Or a square of chocolate actually.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, there you go.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

We'Ll keep going, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mentioned Hillegrass was a true Corn Husker. He kept that company in Nebraska. He felt very strongly about that and donated 10% of its profits to Nebraska organizations. Was a big curator of the arts. So the Museum of Nebraska Art was a big One that benefited from his stealing that idea from coal. And they have. If you've ever looked up, like, hey, what does this guy look like anyway? You might see a bronze statue of him. And that is from that Museum of Nebraska Art.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. He's standing up in some bushes like a creep with a book open.

[Chuck Bryant]

What else? What happened in 1983?

[Josh Clark]

He. This is This. I think this also kind of puts a certain. Like, it paints a picture of this guy. That's what I'm trying to say. At age 65, on the dot, he retires. Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Like, that's just the kind of guy he was. But he didn't actually retire. He just stepped down from company president to the head of the board of directors.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And he still went into the office every day.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And instead of calling him Mr. Hillegast, they said, you can call me Cliff.

[Josh Clark]

Right. He would show up in, like, a smoking jacket and ascot after he retired.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly. But he still called the shots.

[Josh Clark]

Right. But that's just. I mean, I can totally. Because don't forget, he was trained in geology, math, physics. Like, he had a certain way of looking at things. For sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. A couple of Years later, in 1985, there was a Chicago Tribune article. So this is mid-80s. They had a staff of about 25 people, and they had published 225 guidebooks, or book guides, rather. 60 million copies in circulation. And yes, I nailed it. 39 countries in circulation. And apparently there were some countries that used them to help teach American English in different countries.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. Especially the English used by Americans in 1968.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. By the end of the 80s, they were taking in about 11 million bucks a year, which is pretty good. Scratch.

[Josh Clark]

It's about 28 today.

[Chuck Bryant]

28 million. Yeah. That's even better. Scratch. And by the end of the millennium, in 1999, at the age of 81, he sold it off. He was like, all right, I'm 81. I want to live out my remaining years as a super rich guy. And not just a medium rich guy. So he sold to IDG Books, who was the publisher of the Four Dummies guides that everyone knows. And he sold for only 14 million, which kind of surprises me. Fully retired and sadly died a couple of years later at 83 from complications of stroke.

[Josh Clark]

I've always wondered what that is. Like, guys in particular, retiring and then dying, like, very soon after that. It's kind of a thing. And even if you don't die, you can, like, a lot of people just get, like, really sick for a while afterward. And I don't know if it's like you've been running on adrenaline last five years or what the deal is, but it's like when you, when you finally, your body finally resets, like, I don't have to go to work anymore. Something happens to you.

[Chuck Bryant]

Are you saying this personally to me? So I. Yep. Can consider this as I weigh my future retiring.

[Josh Clark]

Chuck.

[Chuck Bryant]

It was bought and sold a few more times though. In 2001, John Wiley and Sons bought the brand. They changed the name this time. This is when they squashed it together as CliffsNotes with the capital N. Then Houghton Mifflin Harcourt bought it in 2012 and then CourseHero bought it in 21.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah, well, that makes sense too. Course Hero is a online tutor. Essentially. They have courses and they're heroes for it.

[Chuck Bryant]

And one final thing before we take the break is it is. I think the New York Times in the early aughts did a report and they found that it's not just lazy high school kids that are buying these books. They found out it's lazy adults in book clubs just want to participate in a book club. But they maybe don't have the time to read the Scarlet Letter so they'll get the Cliffs Notes so they can go and have some wine and talk about the abridged version.

[Josh Clark]

Right. You can tell the ones that read the Cliffs Notes of the Scarlet Letter because they're the ones who thought it was really good.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And it's also the yellow and black is sticking out from their fanny pack.

[Josh Clark]

They have a little piece of it in their teeth.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. All right, shall we take our second break?

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. We'll be back and pick up on where we are today with Cliff in his notes.

[Livia]

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[Chuck Bryant]

Hey everybody, here's an interesting fact. The most common disease in the world is cavities. It's also one of the most preventable, which brings us to the Colgate Total Active Prevention System because it attacks the root cause of oral health problems like cavities and gingivitis.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, spoiler alert. It's bacteria. The system is 15 times more effective at fighting bacteria. It reduces bacteria buildup in six weeks starting in week one compared to a non stainless fluoride toothpaste in flat trimmed toothbrush brush.

[Chuck Bryant]

When used together, it's some cool science too. The unique technology in the toothpaste was recognized with the Edison Patton Award, which honors outstanding research and innovation.

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

Be dentist ready Shop the Colgate Total Active Prevention system by visiting shop.colgate.com total are you looking for a better job, but searching for one feels like another full time job? Well, since our podcast is all about stuff you should know, we wanted to fill you in on a not so little job searching hack. Indeed.

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

All you have to do is update your Indeed profile with your skills, experience and salary expectations. Once you do, you'll automatically be matched with jobs that fit what you're looking for.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and we're quite lucky. For our job we get to go search for things like how champagne gets its bubbles or what the heck is volcanic lightning or the invention of the rubber duck. That kind of searching, that's fun. But spending hours trying to find a job you might like, especially when you already have a full time gig and just know there's something better out there that is not so fun.

[Chuck Bryant]

As people who love to deep dive, it's understandable to not want to waste time on stuff that doesn't truly spark your curiosity. And with Indeed, you don't have to. You skip straight to the part where relevant roles find you, not the other way around. Plus, when you update your Indeed profile, you're twice as likely to hear back.

[Josh Clark]

From employers ready to give it A try. Update your Indeed profile and see how the world can work better today. We learned so much stuff from Josh and Chuck. Stuff you should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, as promised, we're going to talk about Cliff's notes today. You can still buy these pamphlets like I said, I looked up online if you want to buy the Scarlet Letter and hold it in your hand. I think it was $8.99 somewhere a little less, but they're kind of in that ballpark.

[Josh Clark]

Aren't they used, though? They're not newly printed.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know. I mean, they sell them on Amazon that still could be used.

[Josh Clark]

I guess that was my take that they're used. But who knows?

[Chuck Bryant]

Maybe. I do know that their main source of income now is the website that offers most of this stuff for free, which is weird that they also have a fee model attached.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So you can subscribe to CliffsNotes today for I think $9 a month or 36 bucks a year. And you get all of the free stuff, but you can also download it as a PDF. So if you learn better by reading in on print or on paper, you would need to do that. But they also have other stuff too. There's like much more in depth guides and analysis and stuff like that behind their paywall. So it's not like you're just a total sucker for paying for free CliffsNotes because they have a bunch of stuff that's not just free.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I got. We're not going to go through this list. But Livia was kind enough, I think, because she needed to fulfill a word count to list out what you get in the actual free, free version of, let's say, the Scarlet Letter. And my take is that you get a pretty good summary and chapter by chapter thing and character analysis and all that stuff, but it's just even a lesser version than the more robust paid monthly.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And I mean, it's even more like there's pretty good detail in it. Like for their analysis of the Scarlet Letter, they talk about how the Scarlet Letter fits into dystopian fiction in general, or how Big Brother in the Scarlet Letter can be compared to Hitler or Stalin, or when Hester Prynne develops Newspeak, what all that means.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly. And a biography of George Orwell, the writer of the Scarlet Letter.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Yeah. There's a bunch of stuff. I went in and poked around and it is a lot of free stuff. Like you could write numerous really good slam dunk papers on the Scarlet Letter just from the free stuff that they have Available. So I'm a little curious, too, what their business model is, because it doesn't really make sense to me. Unless it's a portal to Course Hero. Now that I think about it, I'll bet it is. I'll bet they get you with the free stuff, and then they get you into Course Hero, and they turn you upside down and shake you by your ankles until all the change falls out of your pockets.

[Chuck Bryant]

Do you want to be a better student for nine bucks a month?

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Chuck Bryant]

So we should talk a little bit more about the elephant in the room, which is that this is just a way for kids to cheat. I mean, the other elephant is. We haven't discussed our own Cliff's Notes use. I will volunteer my own. You don't have to answer.

[Josh Clark]

I've never used them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, well, go ahead and just make me look bad right before I say that I leaned on them.

[Josh Clark]

No, worse than that. I didn't even bother to use the Cliffs Notes. I didn't read the material either. Oh, I was just a really, really lame high school student in high school. I was not good at all. I didn't blossom until college.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, I do remember that now. But you were setting me up to look like a chump.

[Josh Clark]

I. No, I slipped in and saved you.

[Chuck Bryant]

Thank you.

[Josh Clark]

Like Hester Brin did in the Scarlet Letter.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. I did use Cliff's Notes. Not exclusively. I was always a believer. And this is not right, kids, of. I love to read. I was an English major, for heaven's sake.

[Josh Clark]

I know.

[Chuck Bryant]

So I love to read. But I wanted to read what I wanted to read. Emily still sort of challenges me. Not on just reading, but, like, Chuck only does what he wants to do, that kind of thing. That's not the best trade, everybody. You should not be like Chuck. But I wanted to read what I wanted to read. I didn't want to read the Scarlet Letter. So I got the Cliffs Notes and, you know, probably perused the Scarlet Letter, the books that I was like, I totally want to read that. I can't think of another book title.

[Josh Clark]

Like the Scarlet Letter.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I would read that Scarlet Letter. I wouldn't read the one they assigned to me. So I did use Cliff's Notes. That was in high school. Did not use them in college as an English major, because I felt like it was time to get a little more serious. And I chose that major willingly. So I should probably. Probably do the work. And that was the only work in college I really, really enjoyed was reading and writing. So I didn't use them in college. But all that to say, the elephant in the room is like, is this just for lazy kids? And you mentioned that Hillegast was like, no, but how would he enforce that or encourage that?

[Josh Clark]

Rather with a stern note. At the beginning of every copy of Cliff's Notes, he had a little note. His signature was next to it, too. He said that a thorough appreciation of literature allows no shortcut. And students who use them to avoid reading the actual material or having to go into class for discussion groups about the the material are denying themselves the very education that they are presumably giving their most vital years to achieve. And I feel like he took a bit of an approach, a utopian approach to how he viewed his customers. But surely there were some out there. I do wonder if there was a single CliffsNotes buyer who read that note and was like, you know what? I'm gonna change my ways. I'm abusing these things.

[Chuck Bryant]

I doubt it. But I'm sure there were students like I did at times where a book was a little over their head and they used the Cliffs Notes as intended to help with the book.

[Josh Clark]

I saw also that some teachers did that. They actually suggested CliffsNotes for some students, which meant that your teacher thought you were a dipstick.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, teachers also were on record as using it for lesson planning sometimes because they didn't want to read the Scarlet Letter either.

[Josh Clark]

That's really hilarious. That's so Mrs. Krabappel.

[Chuck Bryant]

It totally is.

[Josh Clark]

And then a lot of them actually use Cliff's Notes for the opposite reasons. They would know, like, if you're a high school English teacher, there's a handful of the Scarlet Letters that you've assigned during the year, and you assign the same Scarlet Letters over and over again, year after year. So you probably know the Cliffs Notes on those things by heart. So you can very easily pick out when somebody is not only using the Cliffs Notes, but way worse than that, is actually plagiarizing the Cliffs Notes. That is the laziest thing you could possibly do prior to chatgpt writing your paper for you.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, this is coming from two Gen Xers. And we wrote the book on how to get away with lazy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I didn't even read the material or the Cliff's Notes. That's pretty lazy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Certain universities took charge. In 1997, Villanova pulled Cliff's Notes from their college bookstore. Other bookstores maybe didn't sell them, but they're the only one that Livy could find at least that actually pulled them off the shelves.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they very Famously sent in a hit squad that ended up trashing the bookstore and tore up all of the Cliff's Notes. And when they left, they threw flashbang grenades into the bookstore as they took.

[Chuck Bryant]

Off and yelled, hut, Hut. Hut. Cliff did not like this, and they took out a full page ad. I guess he passed away by this point, but the company didn't like this, and they took an ad in the Villanova student newspaper, called it censorship. And the college was like, they can still buy these things anywhere. This is sort of a symbolic gesture. Calm down.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, we kind of touched on. And we didn't say it, like, overtly, but there. There were a lot of teachers out there who were okay with Cliffs Notes and some who even encouraged their use. That seems to have come along, like, a generation after Cliffs Notes came out, which is not coincidental because a lot of those people who grew up to be English teachers and English professors use Cliffs Notes when they went through school themselves. So at the very least, they had a certain fondness of it. And at best, they were like, this is actually super helpful as a reference material.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And if you have a set of Cliff's Notes that you have read recently from later in the company's story, you're like, hey, man, I didn't see any note from Cliff saying, These aren't shortcuts. P.S. enjoy the shortcut. This didn't have anything in it. I think the minute he sold that company, they were like, let's get rid of that note.

[Josh Clark]

It's a real drag.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's a real drag. And not only that, like, our advertising should actively encourage the fact that this is a shortcut.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's pretty much what they did.

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's own it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and they did own it. I think they kind of walked it back a little bit. So there's like a watered down version of his note essentially saying the same thing. But they definitely did. They said the unspoken part out loud, I guess, is how they put it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. Here's the big question, though, and I'm glad Livia posed this question. Like, is it bad to use Cliff's notes? And the very idea of, like, do kids need to read the Scarlet Letter? Or is the only reason they're reading the Scarlet Letter to just not look like a dipstick when someone brings up the Scarlet Letter? Like, do you just need to be acquainted with this stuff as a cultural touch point in life? Or to get a Jeopardy. Answer correct. Or, I'm sorry, a Jeopardy Clue correct.

[Josh Clark]

Nice catch, man.

[Chuck Bryant]

We almost got our Membership revoked. And, you know, this is me speaking, I think. Yeah, like you should read these books. And a lot of people are on record saying, yeah, I mean, not necessarily just the Scarlet Letter, but I believe there's a literature scholar from the University of Kentucky named Alan Nadell that calls it the labor of witnessing. Like, to actually read the thing is the thing, it's not reading the Wikipedia. I think she found a redditor EastTXJosh that said it's like reading the Wikipedia on Beethoven's 9th but not listening to it. There's something about experiencing the thing that is different and valuable.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah. And reading all this, Chuck, made me realize how much I missed out by not reading all those books in high school.

[Chuck Bryant]

You still can, buddy.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So I went on a couple of like, I searched books you Should Read before youe Die. And that brought up numerous lists and there's some that appear on all of the lists and I'm still searching for which the Scarlet Letter I'm gonna read. Yeah. If you have any recommendations for one to start with, let me know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, you know what would be fun is our mutual friend Joey Ciara of the Henry Clay People, who are friends who wrote and performed the theme song to our television show. And still a good friend. I'm gonna see. He's going to Glengarry with me this weekend.

[Josh Clark]

Very nice.

[Chuck Bryant]

He is a Moby Dick aficionado and collects copies and versions of that. And he said that is the best book of all time. He said it's not my favorite book. He said it's the best book.

[Josh Clark]

You mean the Scarlet Letter? The one with the great white whale?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, that's right. I got the name wrong. So sorry.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, all right. Yeah, I saw that one and I was like, I don't know, it might.

[Chuck Bryant]

Be fun if we both read that.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. I have a feeling you're going to be like, you're still reading that two years from now, but, well, let's put.

[Chuck Bryant]

It this way, Joey gave me a copy probably two years ago, and it sits untouched on the shelf.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. All right. You give me a two year head start and then you start and we'll finish at the same time and talk about it.

[Chuck Bryant]

I got to put down this Mike Campbell book of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and the REM one before that and the Mud Hunting one before that. All I read is these rock books. I need to put them all away. And by the way, those are all called the Scarlet Letter. My story in Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And also Chuck I mean, if rock and roll rots your brain, reading about rock and roll really does.

[Chuck Bryant]

Should we mention one more point that teachers make or. I'm sorry, that problem with study guides. Some people are like, hey, these study guides just give you one lens to look through to view this thing. And what you need to do is read the book and go to a class and hear it from a teacher. But some people say, yeah, but that teacher is just looking at it through their lens. I disagree. As an English major in my classes, the teacher would present perhaps their analysis and then say, this is what other people think and what do you think?

[Josh Clark]

Right. And you have to have read the CliffsNotes to say what you think. What else you wanna talk about any of these parodies or spinoffs or competitors?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, we can just mention kind of quickly, Spark Notes became the biggest competitor in like 1999. There's one called Shmoop, founded in 2008, that became a pretty good competitor.

[Josh Clark]

That's pretty good. I went and read some of their stuff. It's much more loosely written, like, what's up with yada yada yada?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh really?

[Josh Clark]

What's up with that letter A?

[Chuck Bryant]

Interesting. I do want to mention this one spoof at least. Thug Notes.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's great.

[Chuck Bryant]

Did you watch any of these?

[Josh Clark]

Uh huh. I watched the one on Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think you mean the Scarlet Letter, man.

[Josh Clark]

I got it too. We both went down.

[Chuck Bryant]

Thug Notes is.

[Josh Clark]

I was talking about the movie.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, right, right, right. It's a YouTube series from comedian Greg Edwards. He plays a character, a PhD named Sparky Sweets, who summarizes a commentary on a hundred different books. They're generally about five minutes long. And it's a comedy thing. It's Thug Notes. He does African American vernacular and breaks down these books in a fun way in a very quick way. But he's got 3.14 million subs. And if you watch one of these like you did, you will soon learn it's a joke. But he's laying down some real truth on some of these as well.

[Josh Clark]

Oh yeah, like when you finish watching one of these Thug Notes, like, you understand what that book was about, like fully. Like, he does a great job with it. But yeah, there's just this whole shtick to it that's pretty awesome too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I watched a few of them, but the one on the Scarlet Letter by George Orwell at the end, in the analysis, he explains, he talks about censorship and book burning and Stalinism and double talk and all that. Stuff in a very fun way. And I can only think that, like, there might be young students that identify with Greg Edwards and what he's doing, that it might provide a little real insight and inspiration.

[Josh Clark]

I hope so.

[Chuck Bryant]

Even though it's just a joke.

[Josh Clark]

Did you say that the. Did you say the name of his character on Thug Notes?

[Chuck Bryant]

I did.

[Josh Clark]

I love it. I guess that's about it, huh?

[Chuck Bryant]

That's all I got on Cliff's notes.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. I think, man. Hats off to us. Hats off to Olivia. Hats off to Mental Floss. Hats off to Sparkysweets. PhD. We made it through Cliff's notes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hats off to Nathaniel Hawthorne.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And Hester Prynne, too. Yeah, let's see. Since we took our hat off to Hester Prynne, of course, that means it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, guys, this is about Broadway. My name's Reagan. I'm a been a listener for 10 years. My husband Paul and I love to listen to you guys while we cook dinner and we listen to reruns on long car trips. I'm writing in cause Broadway. Broadway episode because I am a theatrical costume designer and I wanted to offer some more insight about previews that you guys were discussing. Previews have a cool function where they are actually used by the production team to keep changing, like Josh said, and fine tuning a show based on audience feedback. Especially on a brand new show. New lines and music may even be written and added during the process. Changes can also include restaging and cutting or adding technical elements like costumes or props. However, Chuck was right that toward the end of previews, the show will be frozen by the director, which means no further changes are allowed to be made. And it's after that time that critics will be invited to attend during previews after they're frozen before opening night.

[Josh Clark]

Got it.

[Chuck Bryant]

So that totally clears it up. Thanks for doing such a great job covering Broadway. It really touched me to hear about the theater world on my favorite podcast, because I listen to you guys almost daily in the costume shop. And that is from Reagan McKay, Interim Costume Shop manager at the Roundhouse Theater.

[Josh Clark]

Wow, that's awesome. I think we talked about the Roundhouse Theater, didn't we?

[Chuck Bryant]

It sounds familiar.

[Josh Clark]

I hope we did. Thank you very much, Reagan. We love it when we hear from experts in the field about an episode we talked about, especially when they say we got it right. And if you want to be like Reagan and send us an email where you're like, hey, I know what I'm talking about. And you guys did a good job. We love that kind of thing. You can send it to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Men if you're ready to reclaim your edge, listen up.

[Josh Clark]

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[Chuck Bryant]

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