The History of Fire

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: "The History of Fire"

Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Date: March 24, 2026
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts

Episode Overview

In this episode, Josh and Chuck “ignite” a lively discussion about the history of fire, focusing on its pivotal role in human evolution, technology, and society. They explore when and how humans first harnessed fire, the evolutionary, social, and technological changes this created, and key archaeological findings in the ongoing quest to pinpoint humanity's mastery of flame. The discussion is filled with characteristic banter, playful asides, and a balance between well-sourced facts and speculative reasoning.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Is This Episode About?

• The episode addresses the deep history of fire in human development, moving beyond the chemical “nuts and bolts” to the archaeological, anthropological, and evolutionary story of when and how humans came to use and control fire.
• From early accidental encounters to full mastery and technological innovation, Josh and Chuck trace the story of humanity’s most important tool.

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2. Stages of Human Interaction with Fire

[02:23 - 03:51]

• Josh: Mastery of fire was not a singular event but a process.

  “There wasn’t just like one day where fire didn’t exist. And then all of a sudden somebody… strikes a flint… It happened in stages, humans’ interactions with fire…” [03:00]

• Chuck: The story that fire’s discovery “was not an incident, but it was a process.”

The Three Stages:

1. Foraging:
   • Early humans (hominins) interacting incidentally with fire primarily from natural causes (e.g., lightning strikes).
   • No archaeological evidence for this phase; it’s reconstructed through analogy with animal reactions to fire.
   • Animals mostly flee fire, but sometimes use it advantageously—e.g., raptors using burning sticks to flush prey.
   • Accidental discovery of cooked meat must have been “mind blowing.”

     “The idea of accidental cooked meat must have just been mind blowing.” — Chuck [08:53]

2. Gathering:
   • Humans realize the benefits of fire (cooking, warmth, protection) and begin transporting burning materials (e.g., carrying embers in animal dung) to preserve and move fire.
   • “You can use that fire to flush prey out or to protect yourself from the saber toothed tiger or whatever.” — Chuck [09:40]
3. Making:
   • The development of techniques to start fires intentionally (e.g., striking rocks, friction).
   • The central archaeological mystery: “When did we start making fire? That’s the big question…” — Josh [11:56]

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3. Fire’s Evolutionary and Social Impact

[04:09 - 05:50][31:26 - 41:56]

• Fire shaped diet (cooked food is tastier, more nutritious, and safer).
• Allowed tool advancements (metallurgy, pottery).
• Provided warmth and protection, enabling hominins to spread into colder climates.

  “We could not and we did not move into colder climates… until we had at least figured out how to move fire from one place to another without it going out.” — Josh [31:32]

• Possible role in facilitating the evolution of language and social bonds:

  “There are theories that human language was born around the campfire…” — Chuck [05:01]

• Circadian rhythms adapted, making humans most alert in the evening due to fire-lit socialization.

  “Our circadian rhythms changed… our interactions with fire allowed us to stay up much later…” — Josh [41:02]

• Fire use may have even influenced human genetics:

  “Humans have a gene mutation… that made us less sensitive to smoke inhalation.” — Chuck [39:46]

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4. When Did Humans Start Controlling Fire?

[16:04 - 23:19]

• Australopithecines: Possibly foraged around fires ~4 million years ago, though evidence is indirect.
• Unambiguous use of fire by humans (but not necessarily starting it) appears by ~1 million years ago.
• Key Archaeological Sites:
  • Wonderwerk Cave (South Africa): Burnt bones/ash 100ft inside a cave (~1 million years ago).
  • Qesem Cave (Israel): The first fireplace (“hearth”) dated to ~300,000 years ago.
  • Gesher Benot Ya'aqov (Israel): Possible controlled fire use and fish cooking (~780,000 years ago) by Homo erectus.
  • Rising Star Cave (South Africa): Controversial evidence for deliberate fires by Homo naledi (~335,000 years ago).
  • Zhoukoudian Cave (China): Once thought oldest hearth (debated; evidence swings back and forth).
• Neanderthals:
  • Mixed evidence on whether they could make fire or just used naturally occurring fire; some argue the presence of manganese dioxide may indicate fire production.

  • “For my money, they probably did know how to start fires because Homo sapiens have a very, very long tradition of underestimating Neanderthals and being proven wrong in the end.” — Josh [25:19]

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5. How Did Humans Make Fire?

[25:25 - 27:56]

• Percussion Methods: Striking flint and other rocks together to make sparks.
• Friction Methods: Rubbing sticks (fire drill) to generate heat.
• Fire Pistons: Using compressed air to ignite tinder.
• The ingenuity of prehistoric fire-making inspires awe:

  “When you look at this stuff… it’s like, how did anyone ever accidentally stumble upon this?” — Josh [26:23]

• Discussion of surviving techniques and demonstration videos adds color.

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6. Fire and Human Technology, Biology & Society

[31:26 - 42:14]

• Clay Pottery & Metallurgy: Fire was the driver from Stone Age to Copper Age and beyond.

  “It was the reason we transitioned from the Stone Age to the Metal Ages…” — Josh [39:12]

• Food Preparation: Smoking meat possibly preceded cooking, critical for preserving big game.
• Social Hubs: The hearth was central to early settlements, used for cooking, pottery, community gatherings.

  “…when we really can have some pretty good archaeological evidence… there are hearths all over the place.” — Chuck [37:47]

• Impact on Disease: Huddling around fires increased contagion (e.g., tuberculosis may have spread with the advent of communal fires).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the myth of a single “fire discoverer”:

  “It's not like… Todd was the one who invented fire.” — Josh [02:52]

• On fire’s essential role:

  “The idea of not having fire, it’s just terrifying.” — Josh [04:56]

• On the surprise of fire’s existence:

  “Fire is actually fairly new to Earth… It didn’t exist before on Earth. That was not something I’d ever really thought of before.” — Josh [05:50]

• On accidental discovery:

  “The idea of accidental cooked meat must have just been mind blowing.” — Chuck [08:53]

• Neanderthal intelligence:

  “Homo sapiens have a very, very long tradition of underestimating Neanderthals…” — Josh [25:19]

• On learning from ancient tech:

  “I was watching a really neat video…they were making birch pitch…how did anyone ever accidentally stumble upon this?” — Josh [26:24]

• Modern impact:

  “Fire actually helped progress humans from age to age…” — Josh [39:12]
  “Our bodies actually evolved to sit around fires better.” — Josh [40:33]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:00–03:51 | Why the discovery of fire isn’t a singular event | | 05:01 | Fire and the birth of human language and socialization | | 07:30–08:19 | Animal and early human interactions with fire | | 08:53 | Accidental discovery of cooked food | | 11:18 | Transition from transporting fire to making it | | 16:04–18:38 | Archaeological evidence: Wonderwerk Cave and fire’s earliest usage | | 18:38–20:58 | Gesher Benot Ya’aqov site: Earliest probable fish cooking | | 22:16–23:19 | Neanderthals & fire: intelligence and debate | | 25:25–27:56 | Primitive fire-starting techniques (percussion, friction, fire pistons) | | 31:26–33:29 | Fire’s role in enabling migration to colder climates and shaping human society | | 39:12–40:27 | Fire as the driver of the shift from stone to metal ages and its genetic impact | | 41:02 | Circadian rhythms and evening social alertness | | 41:18 | Communal fire & the spread of disease (tuberculosis) |

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Additional Memorable Moments & Banter

• Disney Interlude: Friendly debate over the best Disney cartoon: “Jungle Book” vs. “Robin Hood.” [10:25–10:56]
• Modern Survival Skills: “You are a hair’s breadth away from being a big fan of ‘Alone,’ the show that I’ve touted for a decade.” — Chuck [34:48]
• Cooking Preferences: Debate on cooking vs. smoking meat and speculation about kiln-cooked turkey legs. [36:01–39:10]
• New Vocabulary: Josh coins “contagible” for contagious, and Chuck pledges to use it. [42:10]

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, inquisitive, and often humorous.
• Accessible explanations paired with curiosity-driven speculation.
• Frequent mutual encouragement and playful ribbing between Josh and Chuck.

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Conclusion

This episode of "Stuff You Should Know" offers an engaging, thoughtful, and often funny exploration of fire’s history as both a symbol and a tool. The hosts guide listeners through scientific, archaeological, and cultural milestones, making a case for fire as both a literal and figurative spark in human history. For those interested in anthropology, technology, evolution, or just good stories, this conversation delivers warm company and plenty of food for thought.

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Transcript

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[Josh Clark]

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[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And we're on fire with yet another fire episode of Stuff. You should know about Fire.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So Geri asked me when you left the room, she was surprised we hadn't done one on fire. And I said, well, we did years ago on just sort of more the nuts and bolts in the science of the actual thing that is fire.

[Josh Clark]

Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

But I commissioned this one from Dave. I believe that's a little more along the lines of like, what did it mean for people and like, kind of when, you know, I wondered, like, did we learn how to make fire? Was there like a day that that happened? And do we know that day and that person? And the answer is no. Unfortunately, we don't know.

[Josh Clark]

We not only don't know that, also our technology will almost certainly never be so advanced that we will ever find out.

[Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

And one of the reasons why is because there. There probably was multiple people at different times around the world who learned how to manipulate fire. And also there wasn't just like one day where fire didn't exist. And then all of a sudden somebody like, strikes a flint in some shirt or something like that, and now there's fire. It happened in stages, humans interactions with fire. And luckily for us, even though there isn't one day that this happened, and we can't say, like, it was Todd. Todd was the one who invented fire. It is a very fascinating subject. It's definitely up my alley.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And it may have also not been linear. We may have had control of fire for a while, then. Not for a while. So basically what everyone agrees on scientifically is that the discovery of fire was not an incident, but it was a process.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And the traditional story goes that Prometheus went on a quest for fire, ended up hooking up essentially with a human woman, and found that humans were way better than his own species.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

And we got fire from that.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

So we talked a little bit about fire and how much we need it. I remember saying that I saw somewhere that we're obligate fire users, that we essentially needed it to survive. And that raised the question, like, do we still need it? And the answer is yes, we use it still today. But the. The role that it played in human development is just staggering. Like, just the idea of cooking alone is like just that revolutionary change. And all of the stuff that, that unlocked for us, nutrient wise, taste wise, let's not forget about taste. But then also, like, we made metals with it, we made pottery with it, we kept animals at bay with it. Even mosquitoes, they don't like fires. We learn to do all these different things to interact and manipulate our world using fire. So the idea of not having fire, it's just terrifying.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I know we talked about this a little bit. There are theories that human language was born around the campfire because now people were awake and needed something to do when they sat around the fire, like, talk about what they did that day. Obviously fires would eventually power the fires that made Steam possible and steam engines possible and birth the industrial revolution. So fire, very important. It's a technology which basically blew early humans minds. Obviously they didn't learn how to make fire at first. And we're going to go through these stages. Like the first fire came from a lightning strike. But even that probably blew the minds of whatever was walking around back then and saw the ground on fire all of a sudden.

[Josh Clark]

Well, yeah. What I found fascinating, though, is the idea that fire is actually fairly new to Earth. You know, like Earth was a watery planet for billions of years, and it wasn't until the atmosphere kind of congealed into its oxygenish state like it is now, and that vegetation grew. And then you started to have lightning strikes, too. You put all those three things together, now you've got fire. And it didn't exist before on Earth. That was not something I've ever really thought of before. I thought that was pretty cool.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I think they said the Earth has been kind of fire ideal for about 470 million years, which is certainly a long time, but not on the order of, you know, billions and billions of years. If you go forward in time a bit to about 6 million years ago, that's when the first homonyms appeared in Africa. So now all of a sudden you have the conditions for fire and you have, you know, I want to say people. Is that even correct?

[Josh Clark]

Hominins are people? Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. I just don't even know what people means.

[Josh Clark]

Hominins are people too, Chuck.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's what I think. All of a sudden, you had people that could eventually harness fire and then learn to make fire, or at the very least, realize the benefits and take great interest in fire.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they think actually it's probable. So the, the best way to kind of look back in this kind of prehistory, where there's not only no written record or even an oral tradition, like there's no archaeological evidence at this point yet, still even. Right. So it's all just complete conjecture. But a pretty good way to kind of approach the whole thing is to say, okay, how do animals interact with fire?

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Because those first hominins were pretty close to the, the, the great ape ancestors we evolved from still. So you can make a pretty good case that they would have interacted with fire like other animals do. Animals basically run away from it. They ignore it, depending on whether it's a threat or not, and then some of them actually use it to their advantage. Like raptors have been seen picking up burning sticks and dropping them elsewhere to flush out Prey and quarry essentially, which is a jerk move, but it works.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And if there was ever any kind of wildfire that started because of a lightning strike, right behind that you would see predators like wolves or even some birds either preying on the animals as they flee or just having a better hunting ground because things were now kind of burned down. You could see everything.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So you can make a pretty good case that early, early, early humans would have essentially been doing the same thing that we would have eventually figured out that fire offers things that non fiery things don't like. For example, we probably started foraging was the first step where after a wildfire we might have been looking for things to eat and been like, this tastes way better than when I catch it and pull its head off and then start eating whatever's happening here. This fire is doing something great to this.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, the idea of accidental cooked meat must have just been mind blowing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. You know, I mean, a rare steak is a thing of beauty in and of itself. But yeah, I don't want to say well done. But yes, cooked meat is good too. A cooked turkey leg is way better than a raw turkey leg.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Hey, I've never tested that theory, but I bet you're right.

[Josh Clark]

It's one of those things that you don't even have to try yourself. You just innately know it. And it's from this era.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's right. Gathering after foraging was the next step of sort of the discovery of fire. And that's when humans were like, hey, I have this fire. It may have happened by lightning strike, but I now have it in a little bindle in my hand or maybe in a log hollow and I can carry this thing from one place to another now. Or maybe it's just a tree branch if you're a little bit more of a simpleton like Tuk Tuk was. And now you could transport your fire from one area to the other and you can use that fire to flush prey out or to protect yourself from the saber toothed tiger or whatever.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's a big one that I hadn't really thought of before. But you keep animals at bay because animals are used to wildfires and not going near them. So if you're a human or a hominin and you're huddling around a fire, the saber toothed tiger probably isn't going to come attack you right then.

[Chuck Bryant]

You never saw Jungle Book.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, very, very long ago. And all I remember is Baloo doing his thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, the bear necessities.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So great.

[Chuck Bryant]

Still probably my favorite, even among the moderns.

[Josh Clark]

My favorite Disney cartoon, my favorite's long been Robin Hood. That was always my favorite as a kid.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I liked that Robin Hood a lot. But you just can't beat. There's so many bangers in the Jungle Book.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, all right, all right, I'll go with that one. Then I'll just stop. I'll throw out my own personal favorite in favor of yours.

[Chuck Bryant]

Why would you do that?

[Josh Clark]

I just want to get along.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, all right. So they're carrying fire around. At this point, they may have discovered a way to actually keep it going better. Like I know on the survival shows, like a lone animal dung is a great, very sort of slow burning way to transport. Transport fuel. Like a burning cow pie, maybe.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. So that's the gathering thing. So we go from foraging we have no control over. We just identified that it's something special to being able to move it around and keep it going. That's the key. Thanks to the animal dung discovery, the cow piece. And then we finally reached the point and this is where all of the archaeologists and anthropologists and all the ologists want to kind of pinpoint. When did humans start making fire ourselves? And we do have evidence of humans using fire very far back, more than a million years ago. But for hundreds of thousands and hundreds of thousands of years between that point and where we are unambiguously making fire ourselves, there's a lot of room for interpretation. Yes, we were cooking or something, or we were using a fire. It's clear that there were humans around this fire, but it's not clear that humans actually made the fire. We may have gathered it. When did we start making fire? That's the big question in archaeology and anthropology.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Boy, it sounds like. I know it's early, but sounds like a perfect place for a little cliffhangers break.

[Josh Clark]

It's what I do.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll be right back, everybody.

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[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we're back. We don't have a definitive answer, unfortunately, but again, we have a lot of good ideas. As far as those three stages go, they do get a little bit easier to pinpoint a rough timeline. But that foraging stage that we mentioned at first, that's definitely the hardest to kind of lock down in time. There is no archaeological record basically during that phase.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

But they do think, and again, this is people just giving their best guess. They do think that Australopithecines, the early humans, may have been foraging around fires. And this is like 4 million ish years ago.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I didn't see why they thought that, but, like, what the Australopithecus was doing that made them think that. But I don't know, maybe it had to do with their other behavior that made it seem like they would have done that. So the gathering phase, like I said, that dates back to about a million years ago, where it's very clear that humans have, like, had a fire somewhere that it's not possible that, like, a lightning strike set off a fire. In the areas where we found evidence of human habitation and fire together, say 100ft from the mouth of a cave.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Very difficult for a wildfire to start there. So that's unambiguous is what they call it. Like evidence that humans were. Were interacting or using fire, putting fire to some controlled use at that point. But it's far from clear whether they actually started that and almost certainly did not a million years ago.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, and it's. That can also be a little tricky because sometimes they confused stuff, stuff that might look like charcoal or ash is some naturally occurring sediment from a cave. So, you know, they tried to kind of parse through that stuff over the years, but they have found, you know, sites like, there's one, and we're going to go through a few of these in a minute. But one called the Wonderwork Cave in South Africa that they basically have agreed is probably the oldest site of controlled on purpose fire use, because they have found burnt bones there. And this is 100ft into a cave.

[Josh Clark]

Right. That's, again, unambiguous use of human fire. There's also some contenders for when we started making fire ourselves, starting fires, and one's about 780,000 years ago. 400,000 years seems to be the generally accepted latest date that humans became capable of in a widespread fashion of making fire ourselves. So somewhere between a million and 400,000 years ago, humans became capable of making fire, starting fires. And I say we talk about some of these different locations that are contenders for all this stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, yeah, there's the one in South Africa that I just mentioned. They have found and been able to date ash from that cave to about a million years ago. But again, we're not positive that that was, you know, ignited by humans or not. And they don't know exactly how the fires were used in that case. But it gets a little better as we move along. The Qassem cave in Israel was discovered about 26 years ago, and that is near Tel Aviv. And this is where they have found the first fireplace, basically the first hearth that dates to about 300,000 years. So that's pretty unambiguous.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And one of the reasons why they're like, yes, this is a pit, because up to that point, when they find, like, use of fire, it's just like, kind of spread out. Maybe one fire was held there. This is like layer after layer after layer of fires in the same place. So that's clearly a hearth. There's another one in Israel called Gesher Benat Yaakov. It's in northern Israel. And they. This is the one where they think that people were potentially starting fires as far back as 780,000 years ago. And this would have been Homo erectus, who was the longest lived hominin. They lived for almost 2 million years. And they were clever ones, too. They were the first ones to basically take a leap forward in stone tool technology. They also invented Jordache genes, and they know that the Homo erectus were the ones who were making or at least using this fire 780,000 years ago because they found their characteristic stone tools like hand axes. And they were cooking fish essentially here on the banks of the Jordan River. Carp that were up to, like six and a half feet, from what I read. And Chuck, I was reading about how they figured out that they were definitely cooking fish and that they weren't just like fish remains that they'd eaten raw and tossed into a fire. And they tested the fish teeth that had been cooked to see what temperature they'd been exposed to. If it were a high temperature, they probably would have been remains just chucked into the middle of a fire. If it were exposed to a lower temperature, then this probably would have been a controlled roast. And they found the evidence for roasting. So they were cooking fish about 800,000 years ago. There.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. The next one is the Rising Star Cave in South Africa. Very promising cave. And this one is a little controversial in that they do think that some sort of tiny brain species of early human, they were called the Homo naledi, they think that they built fires in this cave. And this was about 335,000 years ago. But other people came along, said, no, I'm not sure if that's when it happened. It might have been other people that came to that cave later. And the similar kind of goes for another cave in China, the Zhukodian Cave. That one was excavated in the 1920s, and people thought for a long, long time that, like, hey, here's the oldest hearth, the oldest sort of purposeful fireplace, and it goes back a half a million years, but it's kind of gone back and forth since in the 90s, 1990s, that is. They saw evidence of this ash there, and they said, you know, I don't think this is ash. Actually. It was what Chuck will talk about later as other organic materials that look like ash. But then later on in the 2000 and tens other people came back and had other evidence that said, no, I think they were purpose built fires here. Which just goes to show kind of how hard it is to really pinpoint this stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Right? Yeah. Going back and forth between the 1920s and the 2010s, like that, that's like archaeological whiplash. So we really need to just kind of also point out here we're talking about hominins using fire, not Homo sapiens. Homo sapiens obviously knew how to use fire and how to make fire, but we almost certainly were not the ones that came up with fire ourselves. We might have learned it actually from some of the other species of humans that were running around at the same time as we were, like Neanderthals. And like I said, there was. There's evidence of, like, other species like Homo erectus using fire to. To one degree or another as far as, like, maybe a million years ago. But there's a lot of questions about did every single species of human know how to make fire? And Neanderthals in particular have been kind of picked on as not necessarily knowing what they were doing with starting fires.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, this one has some pretty good arguments going, I think, in both directions. They found evidences of activity in France and, like, sites in France that they excavated. And they, you know, what they found was there were more traces of fire from periods without glaciers than periods that did have glaciers. And it doesn't really track in some ways, because you would think that they would. If they could make fire on their own, then they would have done that when it was colder. And also it makes sense in a way because in the period where there aren't glaciers, there are going to be more lightning strikes and thunderstorms and the vegetation's going to be dried out. So they may be using the fire even in the warmer periods because it's just there.

[Josh Clark]

Right? Exactly. They also find lots, or they have found in some Neanderthal sites, lots of ash build up. And not necessarily because this is a very ancient hearth, but because they had to keep the fire going. So it was constantly going because they didn't know how to get it started again if it went out. So, yeah, those are pretty good arguments for Neanderthals not being able to make fire. But there are other people who point to other evidence that says, like, no, actually Neanderthals knew what they were doing. One of them is that Neanderthals made birch bark pitch, which they used as basically an adhesive like thousands of years before Homo sapiens were doing that. And that they're also frequently found with manganese dioxide chunks, this black mineral. And it was usually interpreted as they were using this to like decorate their bodies or maybe even for cave art. Somebody has pointed out that, no, actually manganese dioxide is a major component in fireworks and you could use it as a pretty good fire starter. So the jury's out. But for my money, they probably did know how to start fires because Homo sapiens have a very, very long tradition of underestimating Neanderthals and being proven wrong in the end. As the science advances.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And while we don't know when all this started, we definitely know the how. And it's kind of how modern humans start primitive fires, like without any sort of sort of man made tools, percussion methods. Is, you know, when you're striking that flint off of, you know each other, like off of a rock, it's going to spark. And you know, maybe they saw that and thought, hey, that looks a little bit like lightning and gave it a shot. You've got the old fire drill method or any kind of friction method of rubbing something together really, really fast and that'll, that'll get a fire going if you're good.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, one I've heard of both of those obviously. But fire pistons I had not heard of. Essentially you take a tube and a piston and put together there, they essentially form an airtight well coupling. I guess you put a little bit of tinder really, really dry Almost powdery or fibrous, like easily combustible material. Right. And you put the piston in the tube and you press it really quickly. And that compression of air heats the air just enough that it can actually ignite that tinder. Then you use the tinder to catch more tinder on fire. And now you've got a fire started. Like, when you look back at some of this stuff, I was watching a video of using bow drills to create fire. I looked, I was watching a really neat video. There's a YouTube channel called Make It Primitive and they were making birch pitch with no pots. And when you look at this stuff, they're recreating that very, very ancient people figured out how to do. It's like, how did anyone ever accidentally stumble upon this? Like, I understand we're looking at, like the, the developed endpoint version of this, you know, primitive technology, but I can't even imagine how somebody figured out how to make birch pitch in the first place. What happened in some random fire somewhere that gave somebody the idea to turn that into making pitch?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of cool. Like, I don't know, maybe someone rubbed their hands together and it got hot and they were like, huh, friction causes heat. And maybe a thousand years later that idea became, maybe a lot of friction could cause so much heat that something might actually catch on fire. And then they start looking around on, like a good way to do that. Like that's how it had to have happened. I just think it's amazing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. There was probably a transition period though, where some poor schmo's hands were bleeding. They rubbed them raw so much trying to start a fire with them before they moved on to wood.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, what I think is amazing is that there's really nothing new on the scene, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Well, they say there's nothing new under the sun, Chuck. I guess.

[Chuck Bryant]

So.

[Josh Clark]

Do you want to take our second break and come back and talk I don't know about the history of fire?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, let's do it.

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[Chuck Bryant]

you know all

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I certainly do.

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[Jerry]

Want to learn about a pterosaur? And call a pterodactyl how to take a perfect boob and all about fractals, the Lizzie Border Murders, and the Cannonball Runs. Gonna explain everything to your brain. Explosives, Chuck and jaw. That's stuff you should know. Word up, Jerry.

[Josh Clark]

So kind of at the outset we were talking a little bit about how fire just changed humanity and there's some specific things that we used it for that helped advance different species, not just Homo sapiens, along one is heat. Like there's a pretty widely believed consensus is that we could not and we did not move into colder climates, not just Homo sapiens, but all hominins, until we had at least figured out how to move fire from one place to another without it going out. That we just would not have been able to survive in northern latitudes without fire. So that was a huge thing. It allowed us to spread further and further away from the tropics.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And once you got out of the tropics, it allowed you to spread further and further wherever you were, because it provided light. You could explore those caves. You could explore the darkness of the world around you. I know I've said this before about camping. And when I go to the family camp, sometimes we'll take people that have aversions to camping and we have some solar power there and string lights that light up the camp at night. And I have learned firsthand that what I think is going on when people say they don't like camping is that they don't like the darkness once you leave that campfire. Because people that say they don't like camping have had a great time at the family camp because it's lit up all around you. And they've said, man, I feel at ease here, and I'm never at ease in the woods. I'm like, that's cause you can see around you. It's the dark you're afraid of or whatever you think is in the dark.

[Josh Clark]

I feel like you're talking about Hodgman right now, aren't you?

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, Hodgman had a great time at the camp.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I'm sure he did. Hodgman has a good time wherever he goes. But I can also. He's a city boy. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I let him sleep in my little camper. The little one bed camper. Yeah. We snuggled up.

[Josh Clark]

That is very sweet and completely unsurprising.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it was sweet. It was a good snug. And we also made tools John and I did with our fire, which is something that the early humans did.

[Josh Clark]

So I'm a real birch bark pitch fan now. Sounds like it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

This is what it's for. So it's a tarry adhesive that you make by basically burning and condensing birch bark. Okay. Which I love birch trees in the first place. Pando is almost a birch. It's a quaking aspen, but they're close they're similar. I just love that bark. Yeah, you. So if you just again, go watch Make It Primitive and the way that they make birch bark pitch. But you. You take this stuff, this tarry stuff, and you say, take an arrow. There's an arrowhead in your right hand. There's a shaft in your left hand. There's a string of twine in your teeth because both your other hands are occupied. And you wind the twine around the arrowhead to get it to. To stay on the shaft of the arrow. And then after it's on nice and tight, then you put a bunch of pitch around it, and, man, it really holds it fast. Now you've got an arrow that's going to really do the job, all thanks to your birch bark pitch. Although let's also give a hand for twine, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, buddy, you are a hair's breadth away from being a big fan of Alone, the show that I've touted for a decade.

[Josh Clark]

Did they talk about it?

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know why you're not watching it, because all this stuff thrills you.

[Josh Clark]

Do they talk in it, though? Is there dialogue and narration? Because on Make It Primitive, they just do their thing. They don't talk.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, they put people alone in the woods with a camera, so they're, you know, they're talking some, but there's not. Like Mike Rowe doesn't come on and say, what Jane is doing is making an arrow.

[Josh Clark]

Gotcha.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. Maybe I'll give it a shot. I don't know why I'm resistant to it either, Chuck. I think it's just reality television. I have an aversion to it in general.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, I guess it's reality to me. Reality tv, there's stuff like this and Top Chef that are, like, real things, and then there's, you know, people. The shows where they just pit people against each other to argue and fight, like, those are two different things.

[Josh Clark]

For sure. For sure. Yeah. Agreed. But, yeah, so I think that's the only reason I'm just, like, not diving in feet first.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, the real question is, do you prefer to cook your meat or smoke your meat?

[Josh Clark]

Do I have to choose?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, you don't.

[Josh Clark]

Well, there's a question, Chuck, about whether people started heating their meat to cook it or to smoke it. I'm a smoker. I'm on Team Smoker, to put it in a Taylor Swift kind of way.

[Chuck Bryant]

As for what you prefer or what you think they were doing.

[Josh Clark]

What I think they were doing, I like smoked meat. But it is so bad for you that I just. I eat it sparingly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, same here. So, yeah, I mean, the idea is that when they hunted a big, large megafauna, that they would have needed to do something with that meat. You know, there's too much meat to even cook and eat all at once, even if everyone's super hungry.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

So it seems like smoking meat may have been the first thing. How they figure that out, I have no idea.

[Josh Clark]

It's all just conjecture. It just makes sense. Essentially, it's just from the size of the animal. No band of hunter gatherers, as far as the size that we thought or think they are. They couldn't possibly have eaten, like, a woolly mammoth in one sitting.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but how do they know they didn't just, like, eat what they could and the rest went bad?

[Josh Clark]

Because humans have a long history of not being wasteful, and we still aren't today. I don't know. That's a great question, man. That's basically the argument against that, is

[Chuck Bryant]

that, well, maybe at some of these sites, would they be able to tell if it was just bones or if it was, like, former meat?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, there's the tool marks for, like, getting meat off of the bone. There's teeth marks. All right, so there you go. Yeah, but that. That doesn't. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. If you looked at the whole skeleton and there was just, like, one leg that was eaten and the rest of it was there. Yeah, I think. Yeah. I'm not sure what team I'm on now. I'm in my confused era.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, we're both on team Hearth because I know we both enjoy good fire. And the idea that people have been sort of really interacting with fire. I know we've said that some people say a million years. It really became widespread around 400,000 ish years ago. And that's when we really can have some pretty good archeological evidence that there are hearths all over the place. People are building permanent setups, or at least semi permanent setups where they would live. And the hearth was a big, big part of that.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, for sure. You wouldn't just use a hearth to, like, cook necessarily. There were different kinds of hearths that were designed to do different kinds of things. Like, you would use the different hearth to fire clay pottery than you would maybe cook that one leg of mastodon, you know, and then, yeah, you might have a different hearth for sitting around the campfire and socializing and taking shrooms.

[Chuck Bryant]

I wonder if you could cook in a kiln.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know, that'd be interesting. It'd be like dry sous vide.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So, like, you're kilning your. Or whatever. Curing your pot. You might as well throw that turkey leg in there and double dip, just see what happens.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I'll bet it would not look right. It might be fine taste wise, but it would not look right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Emily's getting into pottery. Maybe we'll see. I'll try it out.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, do let me know how it works.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'll ruin her kiln.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And say, right. She's gonna be like, my kiln smells like turkey. Sorry. One of the things that I thought was pretty cool is that fire actually helped progress humans from age to age. It was the reason we transitioned from the Stone Age to the Metal Ages, starting with the Copper Age. We learned how to use fire to smelt copper, and then we started creating better and better tools from there. It was all thanks to fire. The whole thing. All of human prehistory swung on our use of fire right there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And they've also got evidence that perhaps. Well, not evidence, I guess. Conjecture again, that it has played a role in human biology because humans have a gene mutation that we developed after fire, seemingly that made us less sensitive to smoke inhalation. Like, once fire started to be a thing, people would stand around it and start coughing and be like, well, this is no good. So they would stand back a little bit. But eventually the AHR gene, which helps us regulate our response to carcinogens and would smoke, came along. That mutation came along in that gene. So it was a pretty clear sign, I think.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And apparently it's just found in Homo sapiens. You can't find it in, like, Neanderthal DNA or Homo erectus DNA. So it's like. It just kind of goes to show you just how important fire is. Our bodies actually evolved to. To sit around fires better.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

We also learned to shout I hate rabbits to get the smoke from. From coming your way.

[Chuck Bryant]

I wonder where that came from.

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. It makes zero sense. I bet someone knows another one, Chuck. That's. This makes sense. Although I hadn't really thought about it before. Our circadian rhythms changed. Humans, as far as animals go, were the most alert in the evening. Most animals are not the most alert in the evening. They're most alert earlier in the day. And the idea is that is because our interactions with fire allowed us to stay up much later, and hence our circadian rhythms changed and adjusted likewise.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And then finally that all sounds good when you're sitting around the fire talking about hunting the mastodon. But that also means if tuk Tuk is sick, tuktuk is getting other people sick. So ancient humans might have, you know, spread disease a little more readily because people are just hanging out more.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I was reading a study that they said that tuberculosis emerged in humanity about the same time we started using fire. Like being able to control it, not necessarily make it ourselves, but at least to move it around. And, yeah, huddling together helps a contagible or contagious disease.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Spread much more easily because not only are you closer around a fire, you're also probably in, like, a rock shelter, too. So tuberculosis loves fires and rock shelters. Everybody knows that.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And by the way, I like contagible. I think I'm going to go with that from now on.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you. Thanks for that. I appreciate that, man. This is why you and I are so close. You're just supportive. What else you got, Chuck?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got nothing else.

[Josh Clark]

All right? I don't have anything else either. That's the history of fire. That's everything there is to know about fire. So don't even try to look for more. And since I said that, obviously it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm gonna call this follow up to gold standard. Hey, guys. Very much enjoyed the recent episode on the gold standard, but I have a small correction. In the book, those ruby slippers. And I guess they're talking about the wizard of Oz. Yes.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Remember in the gold standard episode, we were talking about how it was an allegory for the debate over the gold standard and the silver standard and all that, and we're like, I guess the ruby there was the ruby standard and blah, blah, blah. And this. This is what they're writing it about.

[Chuck Bryant]

So in the book, those ruby slippers were actually silver and were meant to represent the silver standard, not a ruby standard. There was a charge debate going on in the states at the time on whether we should use the gold or silver standard, which was the allegory you discussed in the episode. The movie changes silver slippers to ruby, I believe, to show off the new technicolor technology. Parenthetical. I'm no film buff, so please correct me if I'm mistaken. Hey, that sounds good to me, Liz.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Thank you guys for what you do. I'm going to see you live in Akron. All right, Liz from Cleveland can't wait to see you there. And that is a great email.

[Josh Clark]

It is a great email. Thanks. A lot Liz. And Liz is among a handful of other people who wrote in to tell us that, which made the whole thing make way more sense. So nuts to Hollywood and cheers to the original version of something. That's right, Ruby Standard if you want to be like Liz and get in touch with us and tell us something we don't know, we love that kind of thing, you can send it in the email to stuff [e-mail]

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Stuff youf

[Chuck Bryant]

Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app.

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