Loading summary
Transcript217 lines
- [00:00]
Host A
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:06]
Josh
Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartradio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck. And Jerry's here, too, we're pretty sure. And this is stuff you should know.
- [00:24]
Chuck
That's right. 80s history. New York City History edition. Yeah.
- [00:30]
Josh
Oh, it's definitely. I mean, not just the, like, New York City history. This is one of the pivotal moments in the history of New York.
- [00:37]
Chuck
Yeah, that's right. Because everyone. We are talking about somebody who, as far as pop culture goes, was on the COVID of Time magazine. Somebody who has been in pop songs by Billy Joel, of course, Lou Reed. None other than the Beastie Boys has been a Trivial Pursuit answer. Has been a question on Jeopardy. Has been mentioned in an episode of Seinfeld, even. And of course, who are we talking about? Josh.
- [01:05]
Josh
Wow. Well, hold on. I can top your Time magazine. He was also in Mad magazine.
- [01:11]
Chuck
Okay. Also in Mad magazine. So this must have been some entertainer or some revered cultural icon. Yeah, sure.
- [01:20]
Josh
In a roundabout way, but not really. I think you're being coy or fae.
- [01:24]
Chuck
That's right. We're talking about Bernard Goetz, the subway vigilante who shot four teenagers on a subway train in New York City in 1984 when I was 13 years old. I remember this very vividly. It was a very big deal.
- [01:40]
Josh
Yeah. And we should probably come out and say these were unarmed teenagers, too. And then I saw. So there's a book called Five Bullets by a legal correspondent named Elliot
- [01:55]
Chuck
Ness Smith.
- [01:59]
Josh
Actually, it's Elliot Smith. Ness. Good guess.
- [02:04]
Chuck
Easton.
- [02:05]
Josh
That's Sheena Easton you're thinking of. Thank you for helping me tap dance here.
- [02:09]
Chuck
Elliot Easton of the Cars.
- [02:11]
Josh
Well, anyway, I'll find his last name, but his first name's Elliot. He wrote a book called Five Bullets, and it's about this. And he was. I saw him being interviewed and he was like, you know, were these kids? And he was like, yeah, that's. I think he said. That's a fair question. He said they were teens. They were 18 or 19.
- [02:28]
Chuck
But they were also fully grown adults by then.
- [02:30]
Josh
Exactly. They were. They were young men, for sure. So to call them kids, which a lot of people did, was incorrect. But to also say that they were armed, which a lot of people said is incorrect as well.
- [02:41]
Chuck
Yeah. Unless you count a screwdriver.
- [02:44]
Josh
Yes. But was that even them being armed?
- [02:47]
Chuck
I know. Yeah, we'll get to all that. So I guess we should sort of just say quickly the story, maybe.
- [02:56]
Josh
Yeah. And by the way, I really. I liked your intro.
- [02:59]
Chuck
Oh, thanks. We'll get into the details of it, but the overall story is that on the New York City subway. Train. On the 2 train in December of 1984, a guy named Bernard Goetz, 37 years old, he is a electrical engineer. Still is. Still lives in the very same apartment, which is kind of crazy, really.
- [03:16]
Josh
In the West Village. Right.
- [03:18]
Chuck
I'm not even sure where it is.
- [03:19]
Josh
I'm pretty sure it is.
- [03:21]
Chuck
Okay. Well, I mean, I might have bumped into him one day. You never know. But, yeah, he still lives in the same place, which is a little crazy because I've never heard him say one thing about New York City that he likes. All I've ever heard him, and I've listened to a lot of interviews, all I've ever heard him do is complain about everything about New York.
- [03:36]
Josh
Yeah, he's apparently still complaining about how New York was in the 80s.
- [03:41]
Chuck
Yeah, maybe so. But anyway, he was 37 at the time, took a seat on the New York City subway, I think. What was it? The two train. And four 18 and 19 year olds got on. Barry Allen, Troy Canty, Darryl Cabe, and James Ramshear got on and were being like, you know, I've been on trains sort of back in the day, it doesn't happen a whole lot anymore where teenagers, or even older teenagers get on and they start screwing around with people. They start being disruptive, maybe even veiled. Veiledly. Veiledly. Veiledly.
- [04:20]
Josh
Veiledly.
- [04:23]
Chuck
Veiledly threatening. And that's what was going on. And one of them, I believe it was Canty, approached Bernard Goetz and either said, give me five bucks or can I have five bucks? And Bernard Goetz pulled a gun out of his windbreaker and shot each of them one by one, hit two of them in the back, and then fired a second bullet at Darrell Kaby, who was. You know, this is where it gets a little confusing as to how exactly it played out, and we'll get to all those details, but he's the one that was. Nobody was killed. He was the one that was injured the most. He ended up paralyzed and brain damaged because the bullet entered his spine.
- [05:04]
Josh
Yeah. And it's worth saying that when he shot Darrell Cabey that second time, Darryl Caby was cowering on a subway bench in fear of his life and again, was not armed. So this is. This is such a. Like, a difficult case to talk about because in some ways, you kind of have to provide context for Bernard Getz's mindset. He was not some insane person. Necessarily. But the. When you find out more about him, too, he becomes less and less sympathetic of a. Of a person. And yet, at the same time, the. The victims of this were not just like, you know, angels, even if in this one particular incident, they weren't necessarily doing anything, and they certainly weren't doing anything worth being shot and paralyzed for life over. So the whole thing, it's just not cut and dried or black and white, which makes the whole thing, I guess, real life, essentially.
- [06:04]
Chuck
Yeah. I mean, none other than Al Sharpton back in the day even said, like, hey, these guys are no angels. Yeah. So, like, no one was ever. And if, you know, Al Sharpton's on the scene and he's saying that kind of thing, like, contemporaneously, then, you know, like, nobody was trying to paint these guys as, like, you know, these nice kids who are just on their way home from the library or whatever.
- [06:25]
Josh
Right, right.
- [06:27]
Chuck
So, yeah, we gotta frame this a little bit. And one of the ways we should start is probably by talking a little bit about New York City in 1984, in the 1980s, which, you know, pretty infamously was down on its luck as a town and fairly riddled with crime, I think it's fair to say, for sure.
- [06:48]
Josh
It had almost gone bankrupt as a city in the 70s. I think it was bailed out by, like, Citibank and some of the other big, big banks and owed them big time. And one other thing, too, about New York was that crime, including violent crime, was on the rise across the U.S. but in New York, it was increasing at a rate 60% faster than any other big city. It was a totally different town than it is today, for sure. All you have to do is look at a picture of the interior of a subway from 1984 and compare it to the interior of a subway today. And it will give you a really good idea of kind of the general lawlessness that was going on in New York at the time.
- [07:30]
Chuck
Yeah, I think there were 38 crimes a day just on the subway in New York City. And, you know, I mentioned that last episode. I'm reading that Abel Ferrara book. He's a New York guy. And so some of these early stories from back then, he lived near Union Square. Like, you know Union Square in New York?
- [07:46]
Josh
Sure, I do. I've walked around in a circle, even.
- [07:49]
Chuck
It's quite lovely. Not when he lived there, which was in the 80s. He said that he literally would not go into Union Square at night. And he was. He was pretty toug guy. And that at one Point the phone. New York City was in such bad shape. Like, Ma Bell went down for, I feel like, months. He said nobody could call in or out from my neighborhood near Union Square.
- [08:13]
Josh
That's like Escape from New York type stuff.
- [08:15]
Chuck
Yeah, for sure. Like, he said he used to pick up the phone every day just to see if there was a dial tone. And then finally one day there was, and he was like, oh, my God, I can. I can call somebody.
- [08:24]
Josh
Yeah, it was so bad. New York was back in this day that in Times Square, people wouldn't go to the Planet Hollywood or TGI Fridays. And both of them almost went under.
- [08:35]
Chuck
Yeah, Bubba Gump Shrimp was really suffering.
- [08:38]
Josh
Yes, big time. So, yeah, New York was a different place. And this is actually. This will help explain the reaction that Bernard gets got when he, I guess, turned himself in and became known as the subway vigilante. But before that, he was an unknown person. This was an unknown perpetrator. Because after he shot Canty, Allen, KB and Ramsur, he took off. He jumped out of the stopped subway car, ran down the tracks, and then, I guess, hit a platform and ran back up above ground and was on the lam for, like, seven or nine days, I think.
- [09:19]
Chuck
Yeah, the subway conductor actually, like, confronted him and was like, are you a cop? And he said no. And he tried to get the gun from Bernie Goetz, which was a Smith and Wesson.38.38 caliber. And that's when he took off and ran down the Chambers Street. But, yeah, he packed a bag, rented a car, and drove to New Hampshire.
- [09:38]
Josh
Yeah, and I think he passed through Vermont, because I heard that he buried the gun there. And he was really scared. Like, he was. I mean, as you would be after something like that. He said that in the moment, he was totally out of control. But very quickly after that, he got really scared. So he was running on the lam because he was under the impression that when New York got their hands on him, I think he told a detective in New Hampshire, they're going to wipe the floor with me. And it turned out that the. Essentially the exact opposite happened to Bernard Goetz when he turned himself in nine days after the shooting in New Hampshire.
- [10:16]
Chuck
Yeah, I mean, the reaction generally from New York, I mean, it was. It was divided in a way. It's not like everyone felt this way, but there were enough people that were like, yeah, good for him. This city is a cesspool. And somebody finally took up for themselves. That was a sentiment, like, across racial lines. And race would play a big part, as we'll see. Like, that's sort of one of the uncomfortable things we have to talk about, because Bernard Goetz, very unapologetically, in interviews, countless interviews over the years, talked about, you know, black men specifically, is what he would say over and over again, and the violence and ruining the city. And I think you found statistics, right, that, like, a lot of the, like, hey, we are on this guy's side, kind of crossed over racial lines, too, right?
- [11:02]
Josh
Yeah. It was not the way that you would think of it. I think half of the Hispanic population of New York said they support him in a survey quickly afterward. And 45% of black new Yorkers said that they supported him too. And again, it's because, like you said, like, a lot of these people had their own experience with, like, being mugged or maybe intimidated or something on the subway. So the idea of somebody stepping forward and doing something really kind of resonated with the people living in New York at the time, because I read they might not all have been living in constant fear, like, we'll see. Bernard Goetz was. But they were constantly on alert. You had to, like, really know what you were doing to live in New York, or else you were putting yourself in jeopardy if you were naive about that kind of thing. So the people were like, yeah, that's great. I'm glad somebody finally stood up to him. The cops aren't doing anything. Which was definitely a big criticism of the NYPD and the New York judicial system at the time. Like, a lot of crime was just being overlooked because the major crimes were so overwhelming to the cops and the courts.
- [12:09]
Chuck
Yeah, I think you said it best about just being alert, because, like, I think sometimes this period of New York gets painted as, like, if you walk outside of your apartment, there's a 50, 50 chance you're gonna get mugged or murdered.
- [12:21]
Josh
Right.
- [12:22]
Chuck
And when you look at the stats, it's shocking today to hear about, like, 38 literal crimes on the subway every single day, because it's just not like that now. But when you talk about how many, you know, tens of thousands of people ride the subway, it's still a low number, but it was high enough. And everyone knew someone who knew someone who had. Had this happen, if it hadn't happened to them, that, like, yeah, it was a different time, but we just don't want to paint it as, like, you know, the Wild west, because it wasn't like that. Exactly.
- [12:52]
Josh
No. But when. When it. The news of the subway vigilante came out, one of the things that really shaped the public opinion, too and made it easier for people to be like, heck yeah, good for that guy. I love him. I think Joan Rivers sent him a telegram that said loving kisses and offered to help him with his bail money. People had T shirts. Did you see that T shirt I sent you? That's available on ebay.
- [13:15]
Chuck
Oh, I thought you sent it in the mail. Do you even buy me that?
- [13:18]
Josh
It said Thug Busters, and it said, Acquit Bernard Goetz. It has, like, I think, a gun or something. No, it had a bad guy with a circle and a slash through it. Like Ghostbusters, I guess.
- [13:28]
Chuck
Yeah, I mean, that was, you know, that was the public sentiment. And it also had to do with the way initially the press was being fed to them about this, because all the information coming out was, you know, hey, these guys had screwdrivers in their pockets. They were trying to mug him. They didn't focus on sort of the shooting aspect like that. He had hollow point bullets, which are, of course, even deadlier, I guess. Non hollow bullets. What are those called?
- [13:58]
Josh
Regular bullets.
- [13:59]
Chuck
Regular bullets, yeah, sure. Talking to two newbies here with that stuff didn't talk about shooting them in the back, initially. In the press, they talked to Canty's brother, and he was like, yeah, my brother freebases cocaine, and he was high that day on the subway. So all the stuff coming out on the news, you know, supported, like, a more benevolent view of Bernard Getz at first, at least.
- [14:26]
Josh
Yeah, for sure. So the. There were some people that spoke out against this. I think the columnist Jimmy Breslin was publicly repulsed that people were celebrating an incident that left a teenager in a wheelchair for life. And, you know, he had something to say about that. Marad Koch was apparently the only public official who unconditionally condemned it. He was basically saying, we will not tolerate vigilantism. That's the difference between the Wild west and a civilized society. And he had a really good point. But for the most part, basically everybody, the loudest people were definitely the ones who were supporting him. The few people who were like, that was a hate crime long before there were any federal laws against hate crimes, were speaking out. But they were in a minority, it seemed like. And, yeah, I found a quote from a guy named James Q. Wilson, who is a. He's a. I guess a public policy expert. I think he was a conservative. He said that it may be that there are no more liberals on the crime and law and order issue in New York because they've all been mugged, which I think kind of gets across the idea that, like, there weren't a lot of people speaking out about this and against Bernard Getz, especially at first.
- [15:44]
Chuck
Yeah, for sure. All right. I think we set the table pretty nicely. You eat from the outside in.
- [15:51]
Josh
Oh, I've been doing it the opposite my whole life.
- [15:54]
Chuck
Soup spoon, large spoon.
- [15:54]
Josh
Yeah, I've been eating from bottom to top.
- [15:57]
Chuck
Oh, no, no, no. That's not the way you do it. You got to set the table the right way. And we have done that. So we'll be right back with more on the subway vigilante Bernard Goetz.
- [16:16]
Joy 101 Host
Joy is essential, and it's also elusive. You can't order it, you can't borrow it or simply hope it into life. But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me. How to Cop me Together, guys. We'll have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Entertainment legends, sports icons, wellness experts, and everyday people will share how they find, allow, and experience Joy. And I'll offer some of my own tips and takes on seeking a more balanced and harmonious life. If you're craving inspiration, support, and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting and moving on air chats. Joy after a breakup. Joy as an empty nester. Joy after a loss. Joy as a caretaker. This new podcast will speak to you. Listen to Joy 101 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [17:15]
Host A
What did black music, food and culture teach us about who we were becoming?
- [17:19]
Josh
2016 was sort of that last era of monoculture where we still consumed things
- [17:27]
Host A
in community from Beyonce and Rihanna. Everybody wanted to be Beyonce.
- [17:32]
Josh
I don't think we'll ever see another Rihanna.
- [17:34]
Host A
To soul food, memory, identity and the stories we carry through black culture.
- [17:38]
Josh
What does it mean to be black
- [17:40]
Host A
and eat in America?
- [17:42]
Josh
So we were this group of people who knew how to work the land, who knew how to live with the land.
- [17:46]
Host A
We make it do what it do. Therapy for black girls is bringing together the conversation, shaping black life right now.
- [17:52]
Josh
You will never make me feel bad for being a black girl for being a black American girl ever.
- [17:57]
Host A
Therapy for black girls is bringing it all to the mic. Listen to therapy for black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [18:06]
Josh
This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us.
- [18:12]
Chuck
The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over Another country.
- [18:18]
Saigon Narrator
From iheart Podcasts, Saigon.
- [18:21]
Chuck
Please allow me to introduce Joseph Schumann.
- [18:23]
Saigon Narrator
You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam?
- [18:26]
Chuck
I should stop talking so much.
- [18:27]
Josh
I like hearing you talk.
- [18:29]
Saigon Narrator
One city, a divided country, and the war that tore America apart.
- [18:33]
Josh
This is for Vietnam.
- [18:35]
Chuck
I've taken a hit from Japanese brown fire.
- [18:38]
Josh
Do you read me?
- [18:38]
Chuck
They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches. I'm on a landmine. For freedom. Let's get out. Freedom.
- [18:47]
Joy 101 Host
Call Vietnam.
- [18:49]
Saigon Narrator
Saigon. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict.
- [18:52]
Chuck
Staying here's madness. The world should hear about this.
- [18:56]
Josh
There's a fire coming to this country, and it's going to burn out everything.
- [19:00]
Saigon Narrator
Listen to Saigon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:15]
Chuck
All right, so like we mentioned, Bernard Goetz hit the trail and a rental car went to New Hampshire. A manhunt ensued. Obviously, they put out a sketch of him. And I guess someone had called in, like, hey, I think I might have seen this guy in New Hampshire. And he. I guess he felt like the walls were closing in. Cause he turned himself in to the Concord Police Department and was really just singing like a songbird, like, to the Concord police. And then when the NYPD got there, he was speaking voluntarily with him. He hated the nypd. He hates the New York Times. Like I said, he has a lot of disdain for a lot of things about New York. Yeah, but, yeah, he was just, you know, if you see these interviews, these are on videotape and you can watch them. He's just very unapologetic about the whole thing, and he still is. You know, we'll read some, like, more modern quotes. But he was always just like, yeah, this is how it happened. I shot these guys. I wish I had more bullets. And we'll read some quotes, you know, for sure.
- [20:14]
Josh
He said some really chilling things, but also some really contradictory stuff, too. During that initial interview with the cops in New Hampshire, he said things like, you know, I wish it were a dream. You know, like he. Right. He said, I'm. I think, like, I'm disgusted with myself or I'm disgusted it happened. Like he was of two minds. And then he'd switch to. Like, if I had had more bullets, I would have kept shooting. Like, the. The problem was I ran out of bullets. Like, he said all sorts of just different back and forth swinging stuff. But he was also very lucid, too. He wasn't like, yeah, he wasn't. No one, I think, ever accused him or suggested he was Mentally ill, except for a judge, as we'll see.
- [20:55]
Chuck
But no, no, like temporary insanity talk
- [20:57]
Josh
or anything, Nothing like that. No. But he's almost universally characterized when somebody writes a brief sketch of him as a loner.
- [21:05]
Chuck
Yeah.
- [21:06]
Josh
He didn't have very many friends. He didn't have much family, if any, at that time. He was an electrical engineer by education and trade. He went to NYU and he had a business where he calibrated high end electrical equipment. And that actually led to that business, led to his first personal brush with violence in New York. And this definitely set the foundation for the mindset that he had when he got on that subway in December 1984, for sure.
- [21:39]
Chuck
Yeah. And set the groundwork for his eventual defense in court. Because in 1981, he was violently mugged in a subway station by three men. This is in 1981. Like I said, this is why he decided he needed a gun. He was beat up pretty bad. They threw him into a plate glass window because he had, like, electronic equipment and they wanted that stuff. So apparently he suffered a permanent knee injury. Two of the guys were never caught. And this is what really, really got him was the third guy was out of the police station in a couple of hours. And Getz was there for like six hours. He was held, not held, held, but, you know, he was there telling his side of the story. And it took four hours longer for him to get out of the police station. And that really, really stuck in his crawl.
- [22:35]
Josh
Yeah. And I think ultimately that one guy that they did catch was only ever charged with criminal mischief. And I think under normal circumstances, we wouldn't point this out, but I think because of how the effect that it had on Bernard Goetz and how it helped transform him, it's worth pointing out or specifying that the three men who mugged him in 1981 were all black.
- [22:56]
Chuck
Yeah, I mean, that's where he got his. Or at least, you know, I'm sure he had feelings like that before, but that's definitely what. What drilled it into him and got him sort of on that path of thinking that way, I guess, about, you know, all young black men in New York at the time. It's definitely what led him to get that gun. So had this not happened, I didn't see anything that led me to believe that he would have ever been the kind of guy to carry a gun around. So that put the gun in his hand. Was that mugging. He applied for one legally in New York saying, like, hey, I was mugged before for this electronic equipment. And Sometimes I'm carrying cash for my business. And they rejected that, saying he didn't demonstrate sufficient need. He appealed that. That got rejected. So he bought a gun, I think, legally in Florida. Sorry. He bought the.38 where his parents lived at the time.
- [23:51]
Josh
Right. So, yeah, I just want to, like, specify. He was turned down twice for a gun permit. And he was like, I carry expensive equipment. I'm at risk of being attacked. It's already happened once.
- [24:05]
Chuck
Yeah.
- [24:06]
Josh
And I think that in addition to the mugger being let go hours before he was able to get out of the police station after being mugged, those two things together, like, not only did he now hate the nypd, he now hated the New York City bureaucracy, and he had no faith in any of them. And in fact, during that interview, when he turned himself in, in 1984, now, or no, I guess it was New Year's Eve, 1984, he was basically saying, like, if. If you stop protecting people, then you're in no position to pass moral judgment when they defend themselves in this, you know, in the face of crime or whatever. And I think that is essentially, especially in that initial reporting where he was held up. They. The four guys had sharpened screwdrivers. He had just shot at them. And like, you know, that was it. That. That is one of the reasons why so many people were like, yes to that guy, you know.
- [25:03]
Chuck
Yeah.
- [25:04]
Josh
Because they felt the same way. They felt like they'd been abandoned by the. By the police and the courts. And this was this guy who stood up for the rest of us like this. Every man who stood up and said, enough. And that was the support for him.
- [25:17]
Chuck
Yeah. I mean, this was also on the heels of the Death Wish movies.
- [25:20]
Josh
Yeah.
- [25:21]
Chuck
So that kind of vigilantism was celebrated in movie theaters with Travis Brunson. Here's a quote from Goetz in that interview. He said, I wanted to kill those guys. I wanted to maim those guys. I wanted to make them suffer in every way I could. And you can't understand this because it's a realm of reality you're not familiar with. If I had more bullets, I would have shot them all again and again. My problem was I ran out of bullets. It should be noted, he only had five bullets and a six bullet capable revolver.
- [25:51]
Josh
That's what they're called.
- [25:52]
Chuck
Probably just say revolver. Most people know what that is.
- [25:54]
Josh
How many bullets capable is that revolver there, Ted?
- [25:58]
Chuck
Well, some revolvers have eight bullets, but the standard is six. So eventually he was indicted. It kind of took a meandering road to finally arrive there. But he was eventually charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and a slew of firearms charges. But at the end of January, 85 was the first go round with the grand jury. They did not indict him except for illegal weapons possession. Apparently there was a DA at the time that was up for reelection. You know, Bernard Goetz was very popular, so he didn't want to like try too hard to bring serious charges. So he didn't call victim to testify or anything like that. As the details start leaking out, you know, and these quotes start coming out, the DA is kind of cornered to like, I have to really do this. So they convened a new grand jury in March of that year and made the case for murder, assault, reckless, you know, all the charges he was eventually charged with and brought in at least Canty and Ramsure to testify, along with eyewitnesses this time.
- [27:05]
Josh
Yeah. So the grand jury indicted him, I think on 13 counts total. And very shortly after that, all 13 counts got thrown out. The whole case got thrown out because the defense made a successful case that the, I think the prosecutor had, the DA had given poor instructions to the grand jury and that Ramsur and Canty had perjured themselves.
- [27:30]
Chuck
Right.
- [27:31]
Josh
And so it looked like he was going to get off again. And then I think a few months later an appeals court said, no, get back in there, let's actually do this thing. So by the summer of 1986, it looked like he was going to definitely be tried in a serious manner for some very serious charges.
- [27:50]
Chuck
Yeah, for sure. He obviously pleaded not guilty. He claimed self defense. And I guess we should go into a little more detail about what happened on the train. You know, I mentioned these guys, all four got on, they were being rude, they were being inconsiderate. You know, again, if you've been to New York City and ridden the subway, you've probably seen behavior kind of like this at some point. It makes everyone very uncomfortable. But you never know if it's like these days you're probably like, it's not a real threat. Let's just kind of ignore it. Back then it probably seemed much more like a real threat. Apparently Troy Canty went up to Getz directly and said, and his best, Joey Tribbiani, how you doing? Asked him a couple of more questions, just like, you know, just kind of messing with him. Small talk stuff gets kind of answered briefly and gets is, you know, obviously getting kind of worked up at this point. This is a guy who had had enough. Barry Allen and Troy Canty approached Him. And that is when the sort of controversial line of give me five bucks or can I get five bucks? Happened. Either way, give me five bucks doesn't sound like a mugging. Like, give me all your money, sucker. That sounds like a mugging to me.
- [29:05]
Josh
Or give me all your love and all your hugs and kisses, too.
- [29:09]
Chuck
That's right. But there's something about the specificity of the five bucks to me takes some threat out of it. But this is just my dumb opinion all these years later.
- [29:17]
Josh
Well, that's funny, because I've read some. I've read a few people who have said, like, five bucks is way different back then than it is today. Like, if you were panhandling, you could ask for a quarter, which is essentially the same as asking somebody for a dollar today. Asking for five bucks was like asking for 15 bucks today. And I saw somebody say, like, asking for a quarter's panhandling back then. Asking for $5 was robbery, essentially. So that that amount actually did make a. Have an impact on the criminal case.
- [29:50]
Chuck
Yeah, yeah. I'm talking about my opinion on the specificity, not the amount of money.
- [29:54]
Josh
Oh, I gotcha. Sure.
- [29:56]
Chuck
Like, asking for a specific amount of money to just, to me feels less threatening than like, hey, give me everything in your wallet right now.
- [30:02]
Josh
Oh, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. That's a really good point. I see what you mean.
- [30:06]
Chuck
Yeah. So that's just me. But that's when he again, unzipped his windbreaker, pulled out the gun. This whole thing was over in 20 seconds. It happened very quickly.
- [30:15]
Josh
Wow.
- [30:16]
Chuck
He fired five shots in the subway car with I think there were like 15 to 20 other people on the car we should mention, which, you know, makes it obviously super dangerous thing to do.
- [30:26]
Josh
Yeah, there's that reckless endangerment thing.
- [30:28]
Chuck
Yeah, exactly. So he started with Canty, hit him in the chest. All these guys are running for cover. Obviously, Allen was hit in the back. Ramshear was hit in the arms and chest. So I guess the single shot kind of did that magic bullet thing. And then this is where I got a little confused because it was a little confusing as to whether the fourth or fifth bullet hit kb. Everything I've seen, I guess, says that the fourth bullet missed him. And that's when Getz walked up to him when he was cowering the corner and either did or did not say something to him that was never completely established. But get said himself that he told him, you don't look too bad. Here's another. And fired the fifth shot into his spine. But There was some contention because apparently no one else heard that. And Getz may have just been like kind of fantasizing that.
- [31:22]
Josh
Yeah, that's not clear. But everything up to that point where he allegedly walked over to KB and said that and shot him again, everybody basically like, yeah, that's. That's what happened right there. There were some other points of contention though, too. In addition to walking over and shooting KB in the back at point blank range, One of them is were. Were they trying to rob Bernard Getz?
- [31:47]
Chuck
Right. Yeah.
- [31:48]
Josh
And the reason why that's so important in the. The difference between give me five bucks or can I have five bucks? The whole criminal case hinged on that.
- [31:57]
Chuck
Yeah.
- [31:58]
Josh
Because in New York law at the time, I believe they probably changed it since the Bernard Goetz case. It was okay for you to use deadly force if you reasonably believed that you were about to be robbed.
- [32:11]
Chuck
That's right.
- [32:11]
Josh
Even if the other people weren't threatening like bodily harm or deadly force, somebody came up to you and said, give me your wallet. You could just plug them full of holes and walk away with the self defense. Like defense. Right.
- [32:27]
Chuck
The char. The Charles Bronson rule.
- [32:29]
Josh
Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. So all that, the. All the defense had to prove was that a reasonable person in Bernard Getz's situation would have believed that they were being robbed. That was the low bar that they had to overcome. And on the other side, the prosecution was like, no, man. We have to prove that he wanted to kill those kids, that his intent was murdered, that it was reckless endangerment. All the other charges that were against him. All the defense had to do to get him acquitted was just prove that one part. Because that use of deadly force then would have been authorized across the whole thing.
- [33:04]
Chuck
Yeah, for sure. Other points of contention is they did have two screwdrivers. They said that they were going to break into arcade games and steal the money. They never like pulled out the screwdrivers and held them at his throat or anything like that. Get said that he could see the outline of the screwdriver in their pockets. That's what he claimed in court, at least. And one of the NYPD cops claimed that Canty had said to him when they were on the scene, kind of talking about what was going on, said we were trying to rob the guy. Canty said, no, I never said that. And no one on the train. Cause they had eyewitnesses. Could corroborate the officer's story. And then Jimmy Breslin, who you mentioned earlier, the very famous New York City beat reporter, he interviewed KB in the hospital about a year afterward, and he claimed that Kaybe acknowledged that they were going to rob him because he looked like, quote, easy bait. But KB Says, no, I never told him that. And people are like, well, this guy had suffered brain damage at this point, so, you know, who knows if that's reliable testimony or not testimony, but whatever Jimmy Breslin wrote about, Right.
- [34:13]
Josh
And that robbing arcade games alibi actually definitely checked out. Like, everybody basically believes that that's what they were going to do because they had a history of that. And I think Troy Canty had been convicted for stealing $14 in quarters out of arcade games. So that's almost certainly what they were going to do, which really undermines the idea that they were robbing Bernard Goetz right then.
- [34:37]
Chuck
Yeah, absolutely. Then there was a contention of how that last shot went down. What was he doing right before he got shot in the back? Bernard Goetz's attorney claimed that KB Was standing up when he was shot, but everybody there, like, every single eyewitness, and Goetz said, no, he was seated, and people were like, he was sort of cowering in the corner of the subway in a seat, like, kind of cornered, couldn't go anywhere, and, you know, frightened out of his life. And so that's when he shot him in the back.
- [35:10]
Josh
Even Getz, in the interview in New Hampshire when he turned himself in, said that when he walked over to Darryl, KB he saw, like, genuine fear in his eyes, and that. That's when things started to slow down. Like, the adrenaline rush or whatever that was like he was operating on started to slow. In addition to his demonstrated bigotry, which we haven't really talked much about that you did a little bit. But he had a history of publicly using racial slurs. His bigotry was just on full display pretty frequently from what witnesses and other residents in his building would later say. In addition to that, like, he went over and shot an unarmed kid cowering for his life, point blank range in the spine, and paralyzed him for life. So no matter what you think about the rest of it like that, those two things make it really, really hard to sympathize with Bernard Goetz, even though I can still sympathize with anybody who is living in fear on a daily basis, I don't want that for anybody.
- [36:19]
Chuck
All right, I think it's good. Time for a break.
- [36:21]
Josh
Yeah, sure.
- [36:22]
Chuck
All right. We'll be back right after this with more on Bernard Getz.
- [36:36]
Joy 101 Host
Joy is essential, and it's also elusive. You can't order it. You can't borrow it or simply hope it into life. But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy101 It's a new podcast hosted by me. How to Copy Together Guys. We'll have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Entertainment legends, sports icons, wellness experts and everyday people will share how they find, allow and experience Joy. And I'll offer some of my own tips and takes on seeking a more balanced and harmonious life. If you're craving inspiration, support and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting and moving on air chats. Joy after a breakup Joy as an empty nester Joy after a loss Joy as a caretaker. This new podcast will speak to you. Listen to Joy 101 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [37:36]
Host A
What did Black music, food and culture teach us about who we were becoming?
- [37:40]
Josh
2016 was sort of that last era of monoculture where we still consumed things in community.
- [37:48]
Host A
From Beyonce and Rihanna. Everybody wanted to I don't think we'll ever see another Rihanna to soul food, memory, identity and the stories we carry through Black culture.
- [37:59]
Josh
What does it mean to be black
- [38:00]
Host A
and eat in America?
- [38:02]
Josh
So we were this group of people who knew how to work the land, who knew how to live with the land.
- [38:07]
Host A
We make it do what it do. Therapy for Black Girls is bringing together the conversation shaping Black life right now.
- [38:13]
Josh
You will never make me feel bad for being a Black girl, for being a Black American girl ever.
- [38:18]
Host A
Therapy for Black girls is bringing it all to the mic. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [38:27]
Josh
This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us.
- [38:32]
Chuck
The United States will not stand by and allow any power, however great, take over another country.
- [38:39]
Saigon Narrator
From iheart Podcasts, Saigon.
- [38:41]
Chuck
Please allow me to introduce the Joseph Shman.
- [38:44]
Saigon Narrator
You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam?
- [38:46]
Chuck
I should stop talking so much.
- [38:48]
Josh
I like hearing you talk.
- [38:49]
Saigon Narrator
One city, a divided country and the war that tore America apart.
- [38:54]
Josh
This is for Vietnam.
- [38:56]
Chuck
I've taken a hit from Japanese Brown Fire.
- [38:58]
Josh
Do you read me?
- [38:59]
Chuck
They're pouring petrol all over him. He's holding matches.
- [39:03]
Josh
I'm on a landmine for freedom.
- [39:06]
Chuck
Let's get out. Freedom for Vietnam.
- [39:10]
Saigon Narrator
Saigon. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Rob Benedict.
- [39:13]
Chuck
Staying here's madness. The world should hear about this.
- [39:17]
Josh
There's a fire coming to this country and it's going to burn out everything.
- [39:20]
Saigon Narrator
Listen to Saigon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [39:36]
Josh
So that's the actual, real, legitimate criminal trial got underway in December of 1986, ran all the way to June 1987, and it took them four months just to seat a jury. Yeah, because Bernard Getz was. I mean, all you have to say is that he was in Mad magazine. To get across, like, what a pop culture icon this guy was. I saw a folk hero used many times to describe him. Yeah. And just to find anybody who had not really heard of him or had claimed, did not really form any opinion on the whole thing was very difficult in New York at the time.
- [40:11]
Chuck
Yeah, I mean, it's still difficult, probably.
- [40:13]
Josh
Sure.
- [40:15]
Chuck
So they got, you know, obviously they had all of those recordings when he was singing like a canary about himself. So they had that in court to play. They had victim testimony like Troy Canty. Not all of them talked, but Troy Canty was granted immunity in exchange for his testimony. That's when he told them about, you know, robbing the video games. That's when he claimed, you know, mister, can I have $5? And that he said, get. Said, you can all have it, like Charles Bronson, and pulled out the gun. He said that he heard KB Crying out, why did he shoot me? Why did he shoot me? Barry Allen pled the fifth. He was not granted immunity. So he did not. He pled the fifth for every question. Basically, James Ramsher's involvement in the testimony was a little weird. We couldn't find. I saw that he was granted immunity. Josh saw that he wasn't. So it's kind of hard to parse it out. But either way, he refused to take the stand. Judge found him in contempt and removed him from court initially, and we'll get to it. But he would later come back.
- [41:20]
Josh
Right. And then don't forget the eyewitnesses who were recklessly endangered by this shooting, too. On the subway car, one was a man, Amanda Gilbert, who was trying to render aid to one of the. I don't know who it was, but one of them said, miss, I've been shot through the heart and I'm dying. And then Darrell KB Said, I didn't do anything. He shot me for nothing. And that had, I'm sure, an effect on the jury. But the judge is like, that's hearsay. So throw out that testimony.
- [41:49]
Chuck
That's right. Victor Flores was another eyewitness. He said the shots all came in quick succession, which I think Most people agree on. He said the kids were frightened, backing off, trying to get away. There was no reason to shoot them. And he's one of the ones that said Getz did not speak to Kaybe before he shot him. But then there was Christopher. Either Boucher or Boucher. I'm not sure how he pronounced it. B O C H B O U C H E R He was near KB when that fifth shot happened. And here was the back and forth on the stand. What did the person who was sitting down do at the moment the shot was fired? Well, he was sitting, grasping the bench, and he was just frightened. Did you ever see that person try to get out of the seat? No. Did you ever see him threatening Mr. Goetz? No. Did he have anything in his hand that you saw? No. Any doubt you saw a person sitting in that seat when he was shot and fired? No. No doubt. How was your eyesight? It's perfect.
- [42:46]
Josh
Yeah. So not. Not really good as far as the defense goes after that, the prosecution was like, we need to get James Ramser up there. He was one of the victims. He obviously is a witness, so we need to find out what he has to say. And that was a really bad move for the. The prosecution, because we had mentioned before that, you know, even Al Sharpton was like, these guys are no angels. It wasn't because they robbed video games. That. That would be a stupid thing to say. The reason people say that kind of thing is because five months after the shooting, James Ramser was indicted for participating in a brutal, violent rape and robbery, I think, in his own building. So, I mean, they had much deeper criminal records than stealing from. From video games. That's why we. We said that at the outset. And James Ramser in particular, he was, I guess, cited for contempt. You said the second time he basically did the same thing. He was like. He wouldn't answer questions. He was the definition of a hostile witness. And that alone, even though all of that was thrown out by the judge, the jury saw that, too. And that definitely his behavior in court reflected on the other four, too. And I. I'm sure a lot of the members of the jury were just looking for a reason to. To not sympathize with the four victims. You know what I mean?
- [44:17]
Chuck
Yeah, for sure.
- [44:18]
Josh
To try to figure out a way for Bernard Getz to get off. And James Ramser definitely made it easier on them with his testimony.
- [44:25]
Chuck
Yeah. And, you know, they did some. They brought in some expert, Expert testimony. Basically, one guy, he was a neuropsychiatrist named Bernard Judvitz. And he basically threw out a fight or flight response, an adrenaline response that like, once that kicks in, he said he was on autopilot and that all of those shots, like it was a single act, like that adrenaline doesn't come down till afterward and he can then consider what's happening. And they happened so quickly. He was like, it was basically like one thing happen. And then he had a bullet expert, a ballistics guy named Joseph Quirk, who testified that KB was shot actually by the fourth bullet when he was standing up, not by the fifth while he was seated. And that entered his spine and threw him backward into the seat, I think, kind of instantly paralyzing him. And then, you know, they did a reenactment with the Guardian Angels playing. You know, they got the biggest, baddest, roughest looking Guardian Angels they could to play these guys. They took a field trip to a subway car and, you know, took the jury out there and was like, you know, imagine what it was like. And sitting in this car and, you know, they were kind of pulling out all the stops.
- [45:40]
Josh
Yeah. And supposedly the subway car tour really kind of solidified things for the jury because they said later that they could see how guts would have felt trapped. So out of the 13 counts that he was indicted and tried for, he was only found guilty on one everything. The murder attempts, the assault, the reckless endangerment, all of it. He was found not guilty on. The only guilty charge was the illegal firearm charge.
- [46:08]
Chuck
Yeah, apparently, like, you know, they're reading each account and how they do individually, and when the account against Darryl Cabey, like, who was sitting in there in a wheelchair, came out, apparently like there were audible gasps in the courtroom. And they said, yeah, it was self defense. He was not trying to kill these guys is what they said. And they found that reasonable doubt, you know, that I think the adrenaline response weighed in the self defense of like the New York law at the time, like you were talking about, like there was enough reasonable doubt, at least as far as the jury was concerned, to not convict him.
- [46:45]
Josh
Yeah. So he got off with, I think 250 days in prison. I don't think he had any community service even. He was initially going to have five years probation and they revoked that. So that was it for Bernard Goetz. He just went back to life for a while. And then 10 years later, Darryl Cabey filed a civil case against him. And this One was, by 1996, New York was a different place than it was in 1986, like dramatically different. And so a jury would not have had the same experience that the jury in 1986 would have had from living in New York, for sure. And that was definitely reflected in the outcome which found in Darryl Cabey's favor.
- [47:31]
Chuck
Yeah, Getz didn't really offer much defense at all in the civil trial. I think probably because he was a private guy, he wanted to put all this behind him and he knew he would never pay anything anyway. So the jury never heard about him being mugged that first time. I think the defense did call some people. They called Jimmy Breslin to testify about Kaybe, the officer that testified that Canty told him they were trying to rob him. They called him in. That was it, basically. Except the one big change this time was that Getz took the stand to testify and said things like, you know, I thought about gouging out their eyes with keys after I shot them. Daryl Cabey's mom would have been better off if she would have not gone through with that pregnancy. I was trying to get as many of them as I could. So he was. He didn't care at this point, I think.
- [48:25]
Josh
No. And like you said, he's still saying stuff like that, too. Right. There's no remorse or no self reflection. Like he feels the exact same way now that he did back then, which was awful.
- [48:37]
Chuck
Yeah. I got a quote from. I mean, I read a New York Times article from January of this year because I think there's a couple of books that came out this year. And he said, you know, the important thing is that I shot the right guys and no innocent bystanders were hurt.
- [48:51]
Josh
Yeah. One of those books was Five Bullets, and the author's name is Elliot Williams.
- [48:58]
Chuck
That's right.
- [48:59]
Josh
So, yeah, I think the jury found in favor of Darrell Cabey and said that Getz owed him $43 million. And Getz, like you said, I guess he knew that he was never going to pay it. He immediately filed bankruptcy. And still to this day, Darrell Caby's never seen a penny of that money.
- [49:17]
Chuck
Yeah. Gets, you know, again, is in that same apartment still. I guess he's got a pretty sweet rent control situation would be my guess.
- [49:24]
Josh
Sounds like it.
- [49:25]
Chuck
But he ran for mayor in New York in 2001, pushing. He's a vegetarian. Pushing vegetarian menus. Apparently he works in squirrel rescue and rehabilitation.
- [49:37]
Josh
Oh, yeah, that's right.
- [49:39]
Chuck
And also still runs his electronics business out of his apartment. And he then ran in 2005 for a public advocate on the platform against circumcision and in favor of power naps for New York City workers.
- [49:55]
Josh
I saw that in 2001, not only Bernard Goetz ran for mayor, but so did the real Kramer, Kenny Kramer.
- [50:03]
Chuck
Goetz was also arrested himself later for dealing drugs in 2013, or at least trying to sell drugs to an undercover officer.
- [50:12]
Josh
Yeah, he became a huge pro pot advocate apparently, too, which is a pretty surprising outcome. So, as for the. The four victims, Darrell Cabey, again, he was paralyzed for life from the abdomen down, and it suffered brain damage. Allen. Barry Allen, and Troy Canty were both in prison back in 1996 during the Civil trial. And James Ramser had been in and out of prison, including one charge of trying faking his own kidnapping. And then he died in 2011, I think, 27 years to the day of the subway shooting in 1984 of an overdose that is widely suspected to have been purposeful.
- [50:59]
Chuck
Yeah, he served 25 years in prison total after that shooting. So he had a rough go of it. And that is. I've been wanting to do this one for a while. This one's been sitting in the inbox for a long time.
- [51:12]
Josh
Yeah. Yeah.
- [51:13]
Chuck
So big thanks to Julia for putting this together.
- [51:15]
Josh
Yeah, thanks, Julia. If you want to know more about Bernard Goetz, you could start with those two books that came out recently that Chuck just mentioned. Five Bullets by Elliot Williams and Fear and Fury, the Reagan 80s, the Bernard Goetz Shootings, and the Rebirth of White Rage by Heather Ann Thompson.
- [51:35]
Chuck
Hmm. My inclination is to go with Five bullets because of no colon.
- [51:39]
Josh
Okay, well, since Chuck cited a preference for no colons, it's time for listener mail.
- [51:46]
Chuck
That's right. I don't even know why I picked this one to read. I just thought it was kind of funny. Hey, guys. Just listening to the Camp David episode and was shocked to learn that Camp David is in Maryland. I thought it was in Texas for some reason, and I sheepishly went to my fiance to talk to him about it. Before I confess my embarrassing mistake, I said, hey, by the way, you know, Camp David. Where do you think it is? And he said, texas. So it made me wonder why we both thought Camp David was in Texas. Perhaps it's a millennial thing. I'm very curious if any of your listeners thought the same. Anyway, thought you might find this amusing. I did. Rachel, thank you for a great work and for being my weekly companions for. For more than a decade. And that is Rachel in Raleigh, North Carolina. And, Rachel, we did not hear from anyone else about Texas. But, hey, if you and your fiance both went to Texas or, you know, with your first answer, then there's gotta be something to it.
- [52:39]
Josh
Sure. They're from a different timeline.
- [52:42]
Chuck
Yeah. I would say look within yourself.
- [52:44]
Josh
Right. And find Texas.
- [52:47]
Chuck
That's right.
- [52:48]
Josh
If you want to be like Rachel, was it?
- [52:51]
Chuck
That's right.
- [52:52]
Josh
And send us a great email where you confess some strange belief that only you and your fiance have. We would love to hear it. You can send it off to stuffpodcastheartradio.com
- [53:07]
Chuck
Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app.
- [53:13]
Josh
Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
- [53:23]
Host A
This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.