The Ruby Ridge Standoff

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: The Ruby Ridge Standoff – Episode Summary

Release Date: December 5, 2024

Introduction

In this gripping episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosts Josh, Chuck, and Jerry delve deep into one of the most controversial and pivotal events in American history—the Ruby Ridge Standoff. Released by iHeartPodcasts, this episode meticulously unpacks the events, motivations, and consequences surrounding the 1992 confrontation between the Weaver family and federal authorities in rural Idaho.

Background: The Weaver Family

The Ruby Ridge incident centers around the Weaver family—Vicki, her husband Randy, their children Sarah, Sammy, and Rachel, and Kevin Harris, a young man who became part of their lives.

• "They were a very normal working-class couple just starting out in life," Jerry notes at [04:00], highlighting Vicki Johnson (later Weaver) and Randy Weaver’s early years in Cedar Falls, Iowa. Vicki's deepening religious convictions and apocalyptic visions in the late 1970s led the family down a path of increasing isolation and distrust of the government.

Descent into Extremism

Driven by Vicki's recurring dreams and beliefs in the end times, the Weavers transformed into apocalyptic religious extremists. Their move to Idaho in 1983 marked the beginning of their self-sustained, survivalist lifestyle.

• "They couldn't have cared less if the state or the federal government told them that they couldn't homeschool their kids," Chuck emphasizes at [07:27], underscoring the family's growing defiance against governmental authority.

The Weavers built a fortified compound equipped with a 300-yard defensible kill zone, aligning themselves with the Christian Identity movement—a group harboring deeply ingrained anti-government and white supremacist ideologies.

Randy Weaver’s Conflicts with Federal Authorities

Randy Weaver’s interactions with federal agents began in the mid-1980s. Notably, in 1985, the Secret Service confronted him over alleged threats towards President Ronald Reagan, which he vehemently denied. His anti-government stance culminated in his 1988 run for sheriff, advocating for complete local sovereignty and rejecting federal law enforcement.

The Spark: Illegal Firearms Transactions

The tension escalated in 1991 when Randy sold two sawed-off shotguns to an undercover ATF agent, leading to his indictment on federal firearms charges. A critical miscommunication regarding his court date resulted in his failure to appear, prompting the issuance of a bench warrant and the initiation of a prolonged surveillance operation.

The Standoff Begins

On August 21, 1992, the situation reached a boiling point. Federal marshals attempting surveillance inadvertently triggered a deadly confrontation:

• "The Weavers' dogs started barking, and Randy grabbed his gun to investigate," Jerry recounts at [29:08]. This led to a shootout where the family’s dog Stryker and their teenage son Sammy were killed, along with Deputy Marshal Bill Deegan, killed by Kevin Harris.

Escalation and Missteps by Federal Authorities

The aftermath saw the FBI Hostage Rescue Team taking control, with altered rules of engagement that permitted snipers to shoot unarmed adults without provocation—a significant departure from standard protocol.

• Chuck remarks at [33:38], "They said any armed adult man you see, you can shoot and kill as long as you're not endangering a child." This reckless change dramatically increased the likelihood of casualties.

FBI sniper Len Horiuchi, following these misguided orders, fatally shot Vicki Weaver while she was attempting to shelter her family, further inflaming the situation and leading to widespread criticism of federal tactics.

Negotiations and Resolution

Despite initial resistance, the standoff persisted for over a week. Supporters from militia groups surrounded the compound, amplifying the tension. Eventually, mediated by attorney Jerry Spence, Randy Weaver and his remaining children were persuaded to surrender peacefully, avoiding further bloodshed.

Aftermath and Legal Repercussions

The trial commenced in April 1993, overlapping with the tragic Waco siege. The jury acquitted Kevin Harris of all charges and Randy Weaver of most, except for the failure to appear in court. The federal government faced significant backlash:

• In 1994, wrongful death lawsuits led to settlements: approximately $1 million for each of the Weaver daughters, $100,000 to Randy Weaver, and later $380,000 to Kevin Harris in 2000.
• Only one federal agent, E. Michael Cao, faced repercussions, serving 18 months for destroying an after-action report.

Legacy and Impact

Ruby Ridge is often cited as a catalyst for the rise of modern far-right militia movements in the United States. The tragic events, characterized by government overreach and flawed tactical decisions, fueled anti-government sentiments that would later manifest in incidents like the Oklahoma City bombing.

Sarah Weaver, the eldest daughter, authored "From Ruby Ridge to Freedom," expressing forgiveness towards the federal agents and advocating for better government relations with citizens.

Chuck summarizes at [52:35], "Ruby Ridge was like a huge impetus that gave all of these far-right movements a shot in the arm," highlighting its enduring influence on American socio-political dynamics.

Conclusion

Stuff You Should Know offers an in-depth exploration of the Ruby Ridge Standoff, presenting a balanced narrative that examines both the Weavers' motivations and the federal government's contentious actions. Through detailed discussions and poignant quotes, Josh, Chuck, and Jerry provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of this complex and consequential chapter in American history.

Notable Quotes

• Jerry [04:00]: "They were a very normal working-class couple just starting out in life."
• Chuck [07:27]: "They couldn't have cared less if the state or the federal government told them that they couldn't homeschool their kids."
• Chuck [33:38]: "They said any armed adult man you see, you can shoot and kill as long as you're not endangering a child."
• Chuck [52:35]: "Ruby Ridge was like a huge impetus that gave all of these far-right movements a shot in the arm."

Learn More

For those interested in further exploring the Ruby Ridge Standoff and its aftermath, Stuff You Should Know recommends reading Sarah Weaver's book and examining Senate hearings from 1995, which shed additional light on the government's handling of the situation.

Transcript

[Greta Johnson]

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[Josh]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Chuck]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck. And Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff youf Should Know, the podcast, the early 90s Black Helicopter Edition.

[Jerry]

Yeah, this is Ruby Ridge. The incident, the standoff, the siege, what do. What do you call this?

[Chuck]

The beginning of the far right militia movement being born in the United States. For sure. It was huge. Huge.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

It was a huge example of government overreach. It was this. Researching this was really hard, man. This is a hard one for me. It was just. It's just such an awful story all around. It's just terrible.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So this occurred when I was, I guess, like a third year in college or so. And that was, you know, I was. I've talked on the show before about, like, us not having TV or cable and stuff. And so I wasn't as newsy then as I am now, but this was a big deal. And I remember this. And then Waco, literally right after happening, which we should do a Waco episode at some point, too.

[Chuck]

Yeah, unfortunately, we should.

[Jerry]

I just remember at the time being like, wow, okay. I don't think I really agree with these people that are having this standoff, but at the same time, it looks as an outsider, like the government is just going in guns blazing and kind of murdering people. And it turns out both are kind of true for me.

[Chuck]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you don't have to sympathize with the Weavers or any of their supporters to still be like, this is just messed up. That's What I was saying, the whole situation is messed up. I don't agree with basically any of their views. But yeah, I say we get into it. Everybody can make up their own minds because it's definitely one of those stories.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So just in the broadest two sentence overview, Ruby Ridge was a standoff in the Ruby Ridge area of Idaho in. When did it finally go down? 92.

[Chuck]

Yes.

[Jerry]

Yeah. 1992. That was many, many, many months long in the making in which the US government had a standoff with a family of children, a couple of adults, and the rest were basically kids. Oh, yeah. And it ended in lost lives on both sides when there's absolutely no reason why it should have. And this is that story of the Weaver family.

[Chuck]

Yeah. I guess you can start back at the very beginning when the Weaver family itself began. Vicky, who would become Vicki Weaver, she was born. Vicki Jordison and her husband, Randall Weaver, got married in 1971. They lived in Iowa, I think. Cedar Falls, Right.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

And she was a secretary for Sears and Roebuck. He had just been discharged as a Green Beret honorably from the army and had gotten a job working at the tractor factory for John Deere, which you can do a lot worse than that. So they were like a very normal working class couple just starting out in life.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So this was, like you said, 1971. They had a daughter named Sarah in 76, and then two more kids, a boy named Sammy and then a daughter named Rachel all over the next six years. And those were, you know, there was a kid that would come later that we'll get to. But around the latest 70s, kind of after the latest Arab Israeli conflict came around, Vicki started basically kind of thought that was a sign of the end times, the biblical end times. She kept having these recurring dreams of these omens about a house on a hill where they could be safe and hide. And she thought the end times were coming and she started sharing this stuff with Randy.

[Chuck]

Yeah. And apparently it really jived with him because he got on board as well. I hadn't seen what exactly was the impetus that triggered all that. So thanks for clearing that up. But long story short, they ended up becoming religious extremists together. And also like apocalyptic religious extremists, not just garden variety religious extremists enough so that they moved. And not only did they move, they gave an interview to the local paper in Iowa saying that they were moving. And in fact, they wanted to go find a place, build a place where they could have a 300 yard defensible kill zone.

[Jerry]

Yeah, yeah. And your local paper. That's not funny.

[Chuck]

No, but I mean, your local paper is probably like, this is hot, hot news.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure. Hot off the presses. Local couple moving to set up defensible shelter. Not here. Right. They moved in 83. I saw 15 acres, I saw 20 acres. Regardless, somewhere in that neighborhood of land with a freshwater spring.

[Chuck]

Yeah, it's a big one.

[Jerry]

This time they were in Idaho, near Naples in the Ruby Ridge area. And this area had become a. Just sort of a place where if you didn't trust the government, if you didn't like paying taxes, if you maybe were a member of a Christian identity group or a white supremacist group, you may end up in this sort of rural area of Idaho at the time.

[Chuck]

Yeah, for sure. This is like a. It's just. I think it's still very much that way too, actually. I don't know what kicked it off, but I think it started in the 70s in earnest. So by the time they moved there, it was. It was in full swing. That's just kind of where you went. And they actually built their own home, from what I saw. And pictures of it are like, wow, they did a really good job. It's like a two story, nice looking cabin. They built a bunch of outbuildings. They basically built themselves a compound. And they did it largely using scraps and plywood and stuff like that. And they started living the survivalist life, like living off the land, planting vegetables. They homeschooled the kids, of course, which.

[Jerry]

Was illegal, by the way.

[Chuck]

I didn't know that in Idaho or.

[Jerry]

In the US In Idaho at the time, at least, it was not legal to homeschool. So not saying that that was part of their illegalities, but I guess technically it was.

[Chuck]

But I think it does kind of like get a point across that's a little subtle. Like, they couldn't have cared less if the state or the federal government told them that they couldn't homeschool their kids. That would just be one more reason that they hated the government. And in fact, one of the big movements in this area was essentially like local sovereignty, where the highest authority in the entire country for a specific area was the local sheriff. Anything beyond that was fraudulent. So, yeah, they wouldn't have listened to the state government saying they couldn't homeschool their kids at all.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure. Didn't have power, technically. No official running water. I think they were able to get water to the house via that spring, but they were living the rural lifestyle. They took In a young teenage boy who had what sounds like a really pretty awful home life. His name was Kevin Harris. And he kind of came and went for a little while and then eventually basically was kind of adopted by the family. And he ended up staying there pretty much full time at a certain point.

[Chuck]

Yes. So he wasn't like. They didn't adopt him because he was like, oh, I thought. I'm pretty sure it's the end times too. Right. He was just like a kid that they helped out, which is pretty great. So he was, you know, he would come and go. He was just kind of living his life and he could. He just knew he had a place to stay and a place where he could eat when things got bad at home with the Weavers, which I think says a lot about them.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure. And while they did kind of chum up to some of the Aryan nation groups around there, they were never like official members. They would go to meetings sometimes. They were very much aligned with the Christian identity movement, which is, I mean, we can't get to the weeds too much here. But one of the main tenants is that Jews are literally the spawn of Satan, that Eve and the serpent bore Jews as babies, and that non white people are mud people from a different creation. I mean, how deep do you want to go here?

[Chuck]

Well, also that if you are of Celtic or Germanic. Germanic descent, you're the chosen people. You're the. You're the people who everyone else needs to cater to, basically. And that also they're the lost tribe of Israel, which legitimizes them all the way back to pre Christian days.

[Jerry]

Right. Okay, that's deep enough.

[Chuck]

Yeah. So Randy Weaver came on the federales radar as far back as 1985 because the secret service showed up one time at the compound and said, hey, one of your neighbors told us that you've been threatening to shoot Ronald Reagan. And somebody tried that before. So we take it pretty seriously. Are you going to shoot Ronald Reagan? Yes. No. Maybe.

[Jerry]

Right. Which bubble did he fill out?

[Chuck]

He said no. He adamantly said no. He said this neighbor that told you that is basically trying to pre Internet swap me because they want. We have. We're having a property dispute and they're just trying to bring the heat down on me. And I guess his explanation was persuasive because that's as far as it went. As far as I could tell.

[Jerry]

Yeah, that's as far as it went. It could have been a. I mean, it could have been that innocent because they, you know, some of their neighbors, they Were friendly with some they didn't like very much. Some of their neighbors complained that kids were wearing Nazi armbands that Randy had fired shots at at houses before. It was, you know, it's pretty rough and tumble out there. In 1988, Randy ran for sheriff. Like you were saying, sort of the highest calling that you could have in that crowd. And he was. It was basically a platform of like, I'm anti government. In fact, I carry around these get out of jail free cards. And if you're not a non violent criminer, then you're gonna get a second chance with me. And I'm not going to. I'm not going to be a government sheriff, basically.

[Chuck]

Right. It's the posse comitatus movement, which is kind of basically what I was talking about. That based on this act from 1878, federal troops have to stay out of law enforcement. So those black helicopters and UN soldiers and all the stuff that everybody's worried about were just totally illegal. And I guess by that token, the FBI would be totally illegal or the ATF or the dea. Like, they're just isn't supposed to be such a thing as federal law enforcement. That was the platform he ran under the party.

[Jerry]

Yeah, I think that's pretty good break time. What do you think?

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

All right, we'll take a little early break. Early Blake, take an early break.

[Chuck]

Blake just set up like. Yes. I've been waiting for this for 16 years.

[Jerry]

And we'll be back after this.

[Chuck]

Learning stuff from Joshua and Charles.

[Jerry]

Stuff you should know.

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[Jerry]

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[Chuck]

I'm thirsty.

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[Jerry]

Wow. Beginning to feel more seasonal in here already.

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[Josh]

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, the Running Interview show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going, going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real inspiring stories from the people you know, follow and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run high on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jerry]

All right, so this is a time in the mid-80s, sort of late-80s, when militia groups were starting to sort of be a thing, be in the news a little bit more. And so of course, the FBI is going to start to begin undercover ops to infiltrate these groups and see what the heck is going on. And that is exactly what happened at an Aryan Nation meeting when Randy met an undercover agent. His name was Kenneth Fatally and he was going by the name Gus Magasono. Great undercover name, I guess.

[Chuck]

Yeah, but not exactly Germanic or Celtic in origin.

[Jerry]

You know, he worked for the U.S. bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the ATF. And over the course, like this whole operation was years and years long because it took like three years for him to get a few different meetings with Randy in which culminated in, if you ask the FBI, Randy saying, hey, I want to sell you some illegal sawed off shotguns. If you ask Randy, he'll say, no, man, I was entrapped. I didn't want to sell the guns. The guy Asked to buy guns several times with me saying, no, I don't want to do that, Until I eventually relented and sold him these illegal firearms.

[Chuck]

Right. So however it happened, the feds now had Randy Weaver in their grips. So they thought, this is a very routine thing that federal law enforcement does. And I think local as well. Like they. They will bust you on some charge that's fairly small, but still enough that you could get prison time. They're going to take you away from your family. It's going to be bad news for you, but they'll totally forget about the whole thing if you start informing for them.

[Jerry]

Yeah, he was a small fish, right?

[Chuck]

Sure. Right. And then they use that fish's bait to get bigger and bigger. Bigger fish. Right. So he was just going to have to do what he normally does. But every once in a while, he'd meet secretly with some ATF handler and tell them everything he knew and who was who and who was leading the stuff. And Randy Weaver thought about it and he said, you know what? You can go straight to hell. I'm not going to be an informant. And you can press the charges if you want to. The ATF did not like this at all. From what I saw. They essentially took that almost personally. And at the very least, they came at him like they took it personally.

[Jerry]

Yeah, for sure. Vicki was pretty upset as well. Apparently she wrote a warning letter, and this is in quotes, to Aryan nations and all our brethren of the Anglo Saxon race. She filed an affidavit, which you knew trouble was coming. She filed an affidavit with a county clerk saying we might have to defend ourselves from, you know, with firearms because the federal government is going to come after us. And we want to file this affidavit right now.

[Chuck]

I. That wouldn't even cross my mind. That's pretty forward thinking, you know.

[Jerry]

Yeah, sure.

[Chuck]

So that was actually very prescient too, Vicki writing that because they. And they would end up having to defend themselves by attacks from the federal government. And that will come a little bit later. First, in January of 1991, the ATF, I guess they didn't arrest him on the spot when they came and said that, you know, they wanted him to be an informant. So a few months later, they decided to take Randy Weaver into custody. But to do that, remember, he had a 300 yard kill zone. He had a cabin up on a mountain. You don't just walk up and tell somebody like that, come on, you're coming with us to jail. So they actually, the ATF Posed as. And by the way, ATF is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, another ostensibly illegal agency. They posed as like their car had been broken down, I guess, on Ruby Creek Road, which is the main road that led up to the cabin. And they basically played on the Weavers propensity to help strangers, I guess.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So they arrest him, he pleads not guilty. He's released on bond, a $10,000 bond on his own recognizance, which is a little surprising. Vicki, his wife, again, writes a letter to the U.S. attorney for the state of Idaho that she addressed as the servant of the Queen of Babylon, and saying that we refuse to bow to your evil commandments whether we live or whether we die. So she, you know, she sent a clear message that, like, we're not fooling around here. And I know we were on your radar, but you might as well really put us on your radar, because we're not coming with you, and you can't.

[Chuck]

Make us or take us off your radar. Don't even mess with us, you know?

[Jerry]

Yeah, ideally.

[Chuck]

So Randy had a trial set. Remember, he's been out. He's out on bail, but he still has to go to court to face these firearms charges. And again, he sold firearms to an undercover federal agents of. It was a federal law that he broke. So these are federal charges, and they can be pretty serious. But it was still, again, like you said, it was pretty small potatoes as far as firearms charges go, or just charges that you could face in general at the time. Right. But it was enough that, you know, they had a trial set for him, and it was set for February 19, 1991. And for some reason or another, it was moved by one day to February 20, 1991. Well, when the government does that or the court system does that, they have to alert you. So they sent Randy a letter saying, hey, we've moved your trial date to March 20th. And of course, it wasn't March 20th, it was February 20th. And there was essentially a typo that the author of the letter, a probation officer, had written. And so, of course, Randy Weaver didn't Show up on February 20, and a bench warrant was issued for his arrest or failure to appear.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So this has been sort of debated here and there about the mistake and the error that he didn't even have the right court date to begin with. But all indications point to the idea that he was not going to come anyway. So I'm not saying it didn't matter at all. But they said, hey, we're not coming. I Don't think he planned on coming, even if he had the right date. But the long and short of it is he didn't go. And so they, you know, they were really on their radar. Now they're like, we've got a real situation here. And this is when this long, like, really long surveillance program started in the summer of 1991, when they kind of staked out around the property and around the house with, you know, binoculars and things and surveillance cameras that they'd set up in the woods. And they were just tracking what this family was doing. They had a couple of plans to go in nonviolently. One of them was to cut the water supply, I guess, from the spring to the house to flush them out. Because at certain point, they weren't even, like, leaving the house. You know, they were having food brought in and stuff, because they knew what was going on. Another plan they had was they were believers in the menstrual cycle, meaning you were unclean and filthy. So when you had your menstrual cycle in that family, you had to go stay in the birthing shed on the property, one of the outbuildings, during the duration of your menstruation. So they were like, all right, when Sarah, the oldest teenager, has her next menstrual cycle, she's going to be sent to the shed. And when the kids bring in food and stuff out there, we'll grab them and they'll immediately give up because we have the kids. But then I guess someone said, well, wait a minute. That's kidnapping. Yeah, you can't do that. We don't have a warrant for any of the children, so we can't go with that plan. So they went with the worst plan.

[Chuck]

They did go with the worst plan, but it was a terrible plan in really slow motion that played out over a really long time throughout, which so many people had so many chances to be like, guys, wait a minute. What are we doing? This is like a fairly small federal firearms charge. The guy sold two sawed off shotguns and then didn't appear in court. We're spending millions of dollars on this, bringing huge resources to bear. And it doesn't really make sense until you find that the atf, which was originally the people with this case, they brought in the federal marshals. The marshals eventually brought in the FBI. And the ATF told everybody else that, number one, Randy Weaver was among the biggest firearms suppliers in the United States.

[Jerry]

Yeah, not true at all.

[Chuck]

With no evidence whatsoever. The only thing that they had him on record doing Was selling two sawed off shotguns. And the other thing that he. They told the atf, told everybody was that he was responsible for a string of bank robberies in Montana. There's no evidence whatsoever that he ever robbed a bank or had anything to do with these bank robberies.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

And yet those two pieces of information transform this from. There's some weirdo family up in the mountains with guns who. And the dad has a couple of. He sold a couple of sawed off shotguns and then come to court to. We need to literally bring the FBI, the Secret Service, the Marshals Service, everybody to camp out for almost a year observing this house to figure out how to get that guy out of there.

[Jerry]

Yeah. It was an extreme reaction. I don't think there are a lot of people that would disagree with that.

[Chuck]

No.

[Jerry]

So they're watching this house. The house, like we mentioned, is very defensible. This is the house on the hill where they were to be safe from the dreams. When they did go out, they would send. Usually they would send the kids out ahead, supposedly with guns to kind of investigate and see what was going on. They had neighbors recording license plates of people who came and went. The Weavers didn't have a telephone, but they tapped phones at the general store. Helicopters were taking aerial photographs. The feds claimed that in March 92, they actually visited and said on the loudspeaker and via some sort of phone call that, hey, you gotta surrender. Although Randy would contend that no, until it all went down, no one said anything to me about surrendering.

[Chuck]

That's a big deal. Because that's the first step in a situation like that is telling the person, just go ahead and surrender. We just want to take you to jail, basically. And them not doing that is huge. That's a big deal. Again, they were watching this place for basically a year and had plenty of opportunity to do that. Somebody I did not see coming into the story is Geraldo Rivera. And yet he has.

[Jerry]

He was everywhere.

[Chuck]

He has a minor role in it. In 1992, he hired. April of 92, he hired a helicopter to fly over the cabin. Because by this time, word was out that there was this family in Idaho that was essentially in this long standoff with the feds. And he said, or the helicopter pilot said, or somebody said that they shot at the helicopter when it flew over their compound. But apparently that was untrue. And I think even the surveillance team that was watching the place at the time said they didn't shoot at the helicopter. But you know, Geraldo he's like, it's going to be. We won't get any ratings if they don't shoot at the helicopter. So just say they shot at the helicopter.

[Jerry]

So that was surprising. The most surprising thing to me was an appearance by another human. Because somewhere in this standoff, while they were being surveilled, I guess Vicky and Randy got a little Randy and had another baby. In my opinion, it wouldn't lead me to feel amorous and in the baby making way, but I guess things happened. They had a daughter in late 1991. Elishaba or Elishaba, I'm not sure they pronounced it.

[Chuck]

I'm going with Elisheba.

[Jerry]

Elisheba. Okay. Right there in that birthing shed is where they had Elisheba. And you know, so that happened. Just know that there's now a months old baby on the scene as well.

[Chuck]

For some reason that just made me really uncomfortable the way you put that.

[Jerry]

That happened.

[Chuck]

Yeah, so that happened. I think. Let's go with Elishiba. I think you were right the first time. That makes way more sense.

[Jerry]

No, I think that's what you said.

[Chuck]

No, I said Elisheba.

[Jerry]

Oh, Elishiba.

[Chuck]

Oh no, I said Elisheba. I don't know, it's one of those.

[Jerry]

Hey, how about this? We're both right.

[Chuck]

Okay, so this is. That was 1991. Yeah.

[Jerry]

Late 91 is when she's born in.

[Chuck]

The birthing shed on the property, right?

[Jerry]

That's right. Or the minstrel shame shed.

[Chuck]

Right. It depends on the situation, I would guess. Right. So everything is about to go down, Chuck, and it's going to go down really hard and really publicly. And the whole thing starts in earnest. The standoff that everybody talks about when they mention Ruby Ridge. It started on August 21, 1992. It was a Friday. And that morning a few, I think they were federal marshals, Right. Showed up on the scene and they were going to just do some more standard surveillance. And some stayed at an observation post and some others drove up toward the road on the way to the cabin. They showed up at like 4:30. This is not new or weird or different, but on 4:30am 4:30am you're right, sorry.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

A few hours later they were getting closer and closer to the compound and apparently they attracted the attention of the dogs, the Weavers dogs. And the compound was in a state where if the dogs are suddenly going nuts, you get your gun and go see what the dogs are barking at. And that's exactly what they did.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So, you know, I know I mentioned that these were kids, but I just want to drive home the point that you had Vicki and Randy, the parents that were there. You had a 10 year old girl, a 14 year old boy, a 16 year old girl, and the Kevin Harris kid that was living, who was in his mid-20s by now, and then this 10 month old baby. So teenagers and a baby, one guy in his 20s and then the two parents, Sammy, the teenage boy, Randy is the dad, and then Kevin is the mid-20s guy that was living with him. They go out with their dog, Stryker, a yellow lab looking to see what's going on. They come to a why fork in the road. As the story goes, Randy took it one way, Kevin and Sammy and Stryker went the other way. And this is where another record of dispute comes in. Because the U.S. government says they were fired upon when they announced their presence as federal agents. What Kevin says is, no, no, no, they didn't announce their presence as federal agents at all. All we saw was guys in camo and they're like eyeballs peering through the bushes and my dog barking and one of the guys shot it and killed it.

[Chuck]

Yeah. There's no dispute that the dog Striker was shot and killed when it happened. Is that dispute and who started shooting first? So let's say according to Kevin's account, they come up on these guys who did, like you said, did not identify themselves as federal agents. They're wearing camel, they're holding guns and they shoot the dog. Sammy, the teenage son says, you shot my dog, you son of a bitch. And like lifts his gun and I guess starts shooting. So a shootout ensues. Sammy is shot, he turns to run. According to Kevin's account, he turns to run, is shot in the back and killed. Now Kevin is gets away, Randy gets away, but a deputy marshal named Bill Deegan is killed too. So Stryker the dog, deputy marshal Bill Deegan, and Sammy the son, the teenage son, are all dead from this sudden surprise gun battle that took place outside of the compound.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And Kevin is the one to be clear, who shot and killed the deputy Marshal.

[Chuck]

Okay, that's 100% verified.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

Okay.

[Jerry]

Because Randy was not a part of that shootout.

[Chuck]

I got you. So yeah, I know that he took a different road. So he wasn't there when it happened?

[Jerry]

I don't think so. I mean, everything I saw was that the shootout was between the teenage boy and the 20 something year old. And that, you know, he, he shot deputy Bill Deegan in the chest and killed him.

[Chuck]

Gotcha. So either way There's a firefight going on, a shootout going on, and Randy and Kevin retreat back to the compound. But they, they leave Sammy's body there temporarily. And they're just completely fixated, according to Kevin, throughout that time on retrieving his body. This is a pretty tight family, so you don't want to leave the dead body of your 14 year old son just laying in the road. You want to go get him. And this actually runs afoul of what the marshals were saying. The two of them, they said that two of them were pinned down by sniper fire for 12 hours. And Kevin and the rest of the Weavers are like, that's not true at all. We were scared out of our minds and totally grieving already from Sammy's death. We weren't spending 12 hours pinning down the marshals with sniper fire.

[Jerry]

Yeah. They said, they claimed at least that the only gunfire that came from them at that point was Randy firing his gun into the air because he was so upset about losing his teenage son.

[Chuck]

Right.

[Jerry]

All right, so now we're at. Saturday, August 22nd, a hostage rescue team is dispatched by the FBI. And this is when things get really hinky because the rules of engagement in the United States in a situation like this are well known and generally ascribed to when things are on the up and up, which is you do not engage unless you are under direct threat from. Of violence or like somebody firing at you. Basically, they amended this rules of engagement and it was approved by the Bureau's Assistant Director for Criminal Investigation Division, Larry Potts. That basically said any armed adult man that you see, you can shoot and kill as long as you're not endangering a child.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Unprovoked to see him walking through the compound, he's holding the gun at his side, you can kill him. That is completely outside of the boundaries of the norm, like you were saying.

[Jerry]

Yes.

[Chuck]

So this is. That's a huge escalation, Chuck. Right, That's. I mean, they were already like, like you said, overreacting. You could say. Now this is, I mean, this is just out of control, escalating. And of course, when you have something like that and you have a bunch of snipers and you have a bunch of law enforcement people staking out a compound, the chances of somebody being killed just have increased dramatically. And that's actually what happens. I say we take a break and we come back and talk about a huge turning point in this standoff. How about that?

[Jerry]

Let's do it.

[Chuck]

Learning stuff from Joshua and Charles.

[Jerry]

Stuff you should.

[Unknown]

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[Chuck]

I'm thirsty.

[Unknown]

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[Jerry]

Beginning to feel more seasonal in here already.

[Unknown]

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[Jerry]

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[Josh]

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series the Running Interview show where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real inspiring stories from the people you know, know, follow and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's light hearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run high on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Chuck]

So, Chuck, by this time, this is Saturday, August 22nd. Blood's been shed from the shootout. And now the hostage rescue team and their snipers from the FBI have the authority to shoot to kill unprovoked. The people in the compound, as long as it's a adult male holding a gun. And there was a guy, one of those snipers, an FBI sniper named Len Horiuchi. He was about 200 yards away from the compound, and he'd been briefed on this revised, altered rules of engagement that the FBI had authorized. And he saw Randy, Sarah and Kevin all leaving the cabin, the main building, and they started to make their way toward the birthing shed. They later said that they were heading to the birthing shed to start preparing Sammy's body for burial. They'd retrieved it by this time. And Horiuchi, following these altered rules of engagement, took a shot. And he shot Kevin. No, he shot Randy in the arm. So of course, from that point on, they immediately scattered because all of a sudden, somebody's shooting at them.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So they are headed back to the cabin. They get to the door. Vicki, the mom, is holding her 10 month old daughter in her arms and kind of holding the door open, getting people in. And this is when Lon Horiuchi takes a second shot. He said he was going for Harris, but it went squarely through the head of Vicki, through her head and hitting Kevin, then in the chest. And she apparently was still holding her infant daughter when she hit the floor. Dead immediately.

[Chuck]

Yeah. So that was, like I said, an enormous turning point. Now the son has just been killed by the feds. Now the mom has just been killed by the feds. But at this time, the FBI doesn't realize that they've killed her. I don't know if Len Horiuchi went home and didn't tell anybody what had happened. I'm not sure. I don't know how you could shoot someone in the head and not realize that you'd done that. But apparently it was not immediately understood by the FBI running this negotiation that that Vicki Weaver was dead. And also by this time, we should say there is a ton, ton of cops. A lot of estimates put it in the hundreds.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

Federal, county, state, local, law enforcement, all showing up to basically help out or contain or do whatever. And one of the things they did almost immediately was block the roads. And those roadblocks became a site of protest for people who showed up and were like, this is messed up, man. This family needs to be let free.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And these are people from the Aryan Nation groups and some other militia groups that it's basically, they're saying, hey, this is going down exactly how we say this kind of stuff goes down. So that's going on. They blocked off the roads like you said. Mom's dead body now is under the kitchen table where it remains. Kevin is in pretty bad shape because he was shot in the chest. So he's in and out of consciousness. They're not quite sure what's going to happen to him at this point. And we should also mention that Lon Horiuchi is a sniper that also had a lot of controversial. Was also controversial in the Hueco siege, like, very soon after this.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

So this same guy was at both of these sieges, and both times was a part of a pretty controversial shooting incident.

[Chuck]

Okay, well, I didn't know that about Waco. I heard that he had not fired a shot at Waco, but I guess that's not correct.

[Jerry]

Well, I didn't. I looked into it a little bit, but then I started going down the rabbit hole and thought, we should just cover Waco.

[Chuck]

Okay.

[Jerry]

But I think he was one of the guys that was charged with firing, like, the incendiary rounds into the building. But I might be wrong on that.

[Chuck]

But we'll save it for the Waco. Yep.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And let's put it this way, like, you can't find anything about Lon Horiuchi now. Yeah, we know he's still alive, but I'm sure he's not available for interviews, if you know what I mean.

[Chuck]

For sure. Yeah. So like I said, they. The feds apparently didn't know that Sammy was dead, and they also didn't know that Vicki Weaver was dead. They started destroying buildings around the cabin. So now they're closing in this perimeter. It's not just any longer, like in this 300 yard kill zone. They're starting to move in and they're destroying buildings as they go. And I guess when they destroyed the birthing shed, they discovered Sammy's body and were like, oh, one of the family members is dead, and he happened to be a teenager again. They still didn't know that Vicki was dead. And I guess because she had been the ones writing the emphatic letters to the servant of the Queen of Babylon, et cetera, and filing the affidavits, the hostage rescue team presumed that she was the one who made the decisions in the family. So they continued to address her even after she had been killed by the FBI sniper. And so they would speak directly to Mrs. Weaver through their loudspeakers and the family was just. They. They didn't realize that the FBI didn't realize that they had killed Vicki. So they thought that they were just adding, like, horrible torment onto the injury of losing their mom and wife.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And, you know, depending on who you listen to, there are also people that say no. They knew that she was dead. And the things that they were saying were deliberate, trying to provoke them and cause further upset by speaking to Mrs. Weaver, who they knew well was dead. But again, it's one of those. You're never gonna get the truth out of a matter like this because there are two sides. But they're trying to lure them out, saying, hey, we had pancakes for breakfast. Why don't you bring the kids out? I bet they'd love some pancakes. They send down a robot, a remote control robot with a telephone so they could. You know, this is one of the hugest ways they broke protocol is that in a situation like this, you've got to be in contact and negotiate with someone in a standoff. And they didn't do that until well into it. When they tried to get them a phone on this remote control robot that had a gun mounted to the front of it, which wasn't a good idea because, of course, they saw that. They were like, I'm not going near that thing.

[Chuck]

Right. Why would you even do that? To defend the robot. I mean, that doesn't make any sense.

[Jerry]

I tried to find out, but I couldn't find anything that was rational. So I don't know.

[Chuck]

That's crazy. So that didn't happen. They weren't able to establish contact aside from shouting at them through loudspeakers. Right. But it wasn't a back and forth or anything like that. And the Weavers just dug in. They stayed in their cabin for days. Remember, this started on Friday, August 21st. The following Friday, August 28th, this thing was still going on. Mom was still dead under the table. And they agreed to speak with a guy named Beau Grits. He was also a Green Beret, a lieutenant colonel. So essentially what's happening now is Colonel Troutman for Rambo is showing up to tell the authorities that Randy Weaver will eat stuff that will make a billy goat puke. It's uncanny how closely this resembled that part of Rambo. Right. And Bo Grits was able to get in and make contact, along with an ex cop from Phoenix named Jack McClam. Now, both of them were huge and I believe still are in the conspiracy theorist circles that Randy Weaver ran in. So it's not like they were just some average people. Like, they could communicate with him and talk his language. And he knew enough about them. I don't know if he knew them personally or not, but their reputation was enough that he let them come inside to the cabin and talk.

[Jerry]

Yeah. So they brought some food for the baby and milk for the baby, which is great. And kind of talked Randy into ultimately coming out, but initially just kind of got him in a better state of mind. They are the ones when they came back out that told the feds, hey, Vicki's dead in there under the table. Randy's wounded, Kevin is wounded, like big time wounded. And they were like, what? That's news to us. So On Sunday the 30th, Kevin finally surrendered. Randy said, it's okay, you need to go get medical help. He was helicoptered out to Spokane, and I believe he was in serious condition, but he recovered. And then they also allowed Grits and a friend named Jackie Brown, strangely enough, to take his wife's body away. And the pets, they had a couple of pet parakeets that they took away as well.

[Chuck]

Right. So Kevin's out. It's now just Randy and his three daughters, Sarah, Elisheba and Rachel. Yeah. And they were alone in this cabin, still under siege. And so there are a lot of supporters who are like, well, I mean, we know how this is going to end. Randy's going to come out with guns blazing and take out as many of these feds as he can before he gets taken down. And very reasonably and wisely, Randy did not do that. He made sure that he and his three daughters were able to come down safely, ostensibly under the care of an attorney named Jerry Spence. He represented the estate of Karen Silkwood, who also deserves an episode too. But essentially she was a whistleblower who was mysteriously. Who mysteriously died in a mysterious car crash. So he was pretty famous as far as defense attorneys. And he had said, I'll represent this guy if he'll come out. I don't know if he did. Did he?

[Jerry]

I don't know.

[Chuck]

Okay, well, let's presume that he did and didn't go back on his word. But regardless, some people think that that public announcement by Jerry Spence may have had at least some role in getting Randy Weaver to come out peaceably.

[Jerry]

Yeah. And he had to talk his daughters into it. You know, they were ready to go. They were both brandishing guns. So he said, you know, 14 year old Sarah, put down your 9 millimeter and 10 year old Rachel put down that.38. We're going to get out of here alive. And they did that. Randy and Kevin were ultimately charged with murder, conspiracy, assault, and the girls went to live with their in laws, I believe Vicki's parents in Iowa.

[Chuck]

Right. And so, of course, like you said, they're charged. So their trial begins in April of 1993. And I don't know if ironic is the term, but the trial started just before Waco ended. And if you don't know how Waco ended and you can't wait till our episode on Waco ended really badly. A lot of women and children died. It was just a bad jam. So this is happening as this trial for the Ruby Ridge standoff is starting. And the whole thing lasted for months, I think. Finally, on July 9, not only were there months of testimony, the jury deliberated for 20 days. That is a really long time to deliberate. And when they came back, they acquitted Kevin Harris of all charges. And you had said he definitely killed the deputy marshal. Right. So he was acquitted of that and everything else. And Randy Weaver was acquitted on everything except for his failure to appear in the original firearms case. That was it.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

So clearly this Idaho jury was like, yes, the feds very much overstepped their bounds and overreacted. And this is like so much so that we don't think these people should go to jail for anything they did in response.

[Jerry]

Yeah, I mean, it was sort of the facts of the case too. Like everything I saw, it didn't seem like it was just some uneven jury where they were just sympathetic to the locals. Once the facts of the case came out, it was pretty clear they changed rules of engagement when they shouldn't have. They didn't follow protocol, setting up communications. They went in guns blazing and just basically murdered people. In 94, the family filed wrongful death lawsuits against the FBI and the US Marshals. They settled it. The JOD settled these suits. They paid about a million bucks to each of the girls, 100 grand to Weaver. Harris, many years later, in 2000, won another settlement for $380,000. And Lon Horiuchi, the sniper, where things really took a turn when he got involved. It kind of went back and forth in different appeals, in different cases over the years of pursuing criminal charges against him. So involuntary manslaughter was the initial charge. I think they moved it to a federal district court who dismissed it, saying that he was acting in his official capacity. So you can't convict a guy for that. And there were a bunch of appeals and ended up in him escaping any justice by having the charges dropped.

[Chuck]

So the Justice Department had their own inquiry and they found out that this whole thing was pretty much a cluster from beginning to end. The Senate held hearings in 1995 featuring Fred Thompson, who would go on to play the DA in Law and Order for a couple of seasons back when he was a senator for Tennessee. And they also found that the whole thing was basically a cluster from beginning to end. And one person who did actually do time for this is actually an FBI agent. The guy who, one of was one of the people running the operation, E. Michael Cao. He. He was sentenced to 18 months in federal prison because he destroyed an after action report about the operation. He said he was acting in what he thought was the bureau's best interests and that he didn't want the local Idaho prosecutor getting a hold of the thing and using it, I would guess against Lon Horiuchi, I don't know. But he was the only person to actually do time from this whole thing.

[Jerry]

Yeah, Randy just died a couple of years ago at the age of 74. He kind of abandoned a lot of the just sort of further out there religious ideas that is was in his marriage seemingly because of Vicky. And he was still like a, you know, sort of call celeb in the anti government world. And Sarah, the oldest daughter has, it is very easy to find interviews with her. She wrote a book at it about it called From Ruby Ridge to Freedom. And in that book she forgave those federal agents.

[Chuck]

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I was reading an interview with her and she's a big commentator on that part of America and its response to the federal government and how each one needs to kind of interact with one another. She's very peaceful now, it seems like.

[Jerry]

Yeah, seems like it.

[Chuck]

And like you said, Ruby Ridge was like a huge impetus that gave like all of these far right movements a shot in the arm. And this is 1993. Within two years all of that momentum would just be completely scuttled when Timothy McVeigh came along and said, hey, I'm going to blow up a federal building in OKLAHOMA CITY, Kill 168 people including 19 children in daycare. And it's in retaliation for Ruby Ridge and Waco. And it was so abhorrent that all of those people who are like, yeah, Ruby Ridge were suddenly like, whoa, I don't want to have anything to do with militias anymore because this is what people do. I'm not, I don't want to have anything to do with it. It wasn't until the early 2000s that it started to come back again, which is slowly developed over time until we are where we are now, where they're essentially public. Public office holders in some cases.

[Jerry]

Yeah, this is a tough one. So maybe let's do Waco in one year, and then we can do the Oklahoma City bombing in two years.

[Chuck]

Have you ever been to Oklahoma City in that site?

[Jerry]

I have not.

[Chuck]

It's insane to stand there. It's just nuts. So, yeah, we should do one on that, too. For sure.

[Jerry]

But we got to space these out.

[Chuck]

Oh, I agree.

[Jerry]

You're saying maybe every December, like a Christmas episode?

[Chuck]

There you go. Good idea. American tragedy toy episode. And then our holiday episode.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

Okay. Well, Chuck apologized just a second ago, so that means it's time for listener mail.

[Jerry]

Yeah. Here's a correction about porcupines that I don't think we got when that initially came out, but it must have been released as a Saturday edition, right? Recently.

[Chuck]

Sweet bippy. It was okay.

[Jerry]

Hi, guys. My name is Jita O, and I'm an undergraduate at UC Irvine studying biology. I wanted to write about a correction in your Porcupines ep. Chuck was discussing the fact of how new World and old world porcupines evolve independently of each other. The phrase for that would actually be convergent evolution, not co evolution. Oh, I think I misspoke. And that. Actually, we could probably clear that up in our peacocks episode coming up.

[Chuck]

Oh, good idea, Chuck.

[Jerry]

Convergent evolution is what we need to remember. Co evolution is a term where interactions between two species have a reciprocal effect on each other's evolution, which is completely different. Convergent evolution is when two separate population populations in distinct geographic locations undergo similar phenotypic changes due to selective pressures. I want to finish by thanking you both for always pequing my interest.

[Chuck]

It's peeking.

[Jerry]

I know.

[Chuck]

Oh, you got me again. That's really.

[Jerry]

I thought you were just messing with me.

[Chuck]

Couple of months, Chuck.

[Jerry]

Wow. Okay. And then later on, I told Emily. I was like. I mispronounced peeking. Peeking. And Josh totally called me on it. But I tricked him pequing my interest in a variety of random topics I didn't know I needed until I did. Looking forward to learning more. And that, once again, is from Jita O.

[Chuck]

Thanks, Jita. Jita O is O their last name.

[Jerry]

It is Ji Tao, but they put a handy pronunciation next to it. That's why I'm saying.

[Chuck]

Well, thanks a lot, Jita O. That was a great name. Great email, and best of luck to you with your biology degree. We need more biologists running around out there, so bless you for that. And if you want to be blessed by Pope Josh or Pope Chuck, you can send us an email as well. Send it off to stuffpodcastiheartradio.com.

[Jerry]

Stuff youf.

[Chuck]

Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit.

[Josh]

The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[Unknown]

You listen to your favorite show shows. Upgrade your holiday entertainment with the Vizio 5.1 soundbar, now just $198 on Amazon. Enjoy immersive audio with three full range speakers, two surround speakers, and a wireless subwoofer. Plus, with Dolby Atmos, you'll experience sound that flows all around you. Listen to your favorite holiday songs on north pole radio with iHeartRadio in no time thanks to Vizio's easiest setup ever. Whether it's a gift for someone special or an upgrade for yourself, the Vizio 5.1 soundbar makes the season sound spectacular. Get yours for $1.98 on Amazon today.

[Josh]

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series the Running Interview show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run high on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[I]

Need something to level up while you juggle work and life? I'm Dr. Amantha Imber, an organizational psychologist and the host of the podcast How I Work. It's a show where I interview some of the world's most successful people who share their unique tactics, routines, and strategies for balancing work, family, and personal growth. How I Work will give you practical tips to turbocharge your career and your life. Search for How I Work on the free iHeart app or in whatever podcast app you're listening to.