The Story of Starvation Heights

Summary

Podcast Summary: Stuff You Should Know

Episode Title: The Story of Starvation Heights
Date: May 26, 2026
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts

---

Episode Overview

In this true crime episode, Josh and Chuck explore the chilling story of Linda Burfield Hazard, a self-described “fasting specialist” who ran a sanitarium in early 20th-century Washington State. Under the guise of medical treatment, Hazard starved her patients to death—most infamously sisters Claire and Dora Williamson—all while inheriting their estates. The episode delves into Hazard’s methods, alternative medicine’s murky history, the grisly events at "Starvation Heights," and the legal aftermath that helped change medical regulation in the U.S.

---

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: An Era Rife with Quackery (02:55–05:55)

• Alternative Medicine Boom: Linda Hazard emerged during a time when the boundaries between legitimate medicine and quackery were blurred.
• Comparison to Other Quacks: “I feel like we have covered quite a few quacks over the years.” – Chuck (03:00)
• Fasting Craze: Inspired by Dr. Edward Dewey, Hazard preached that all disease was caused by undigested food and habitual overeating.

2. The Life and Philosophy of Linda Burfield Hazard (06:11–10:11)

• Early Trauma: Hazard’s distrust in medicine allegedly began after a physician gave her mercury-laced “blue mass” pills as a child, making her violently ill.
• “Fasting Specialist”: Despite no medical license, she proclaimed herself the world's only fasting specialist, racking up wealthy clients.
• Core Method: Three-pronged treatment—violent fasting, repeated enemas (“enema, enema, enema”), and vigorous massage intended to expel “toxins.”
  • “I've read that her enemas lasted for hours sometimes.” – Josh (08:41)
  • “She would pound on her patients and apparently shout, ‘eliminate! eliminate!’” – Josh (09:14)
• Legal Loopholes: The U.S. had few regulations, enabling Hazard to practice unimpeded.

3. A Deadly Practice and Murder for Profit (10:28–14:21)

• Rising Body Count: By the time she set up shop in Washington, at least seven patients had died, with more to follow.
• Patient Pool: Her clientele included the societal elite and local immigrants, who respected her apparent success and education.
  • “She made a lot of money, we should say multiple times throughout her career. So she was wealthy. She had a lot of land. She was a doctor—so she said...” – Josh (25:21)

4. The Williamson Sisters: Victims of Starvation Heights (11:45–14:29)

• Claire and Dora Williamson: Wealthy, independent British sisters, interested in “natural health,” who sought out Hazard after reading her ad.
• Initial Enthusiasm: Upon entering Hazard’s program, the sisters consumed only cups of vegetable broth twice a day, subjected to hazardous treatment.
  • “They were eating two cups of vegetable broth...a day.” – Chuck (28:28)
• Forty Days Without Food: After weeks, they were physically unable to walk and transferred via stretcher to Wilderness Heights.

5. Grisly Reality of “Wilderness Heights” / “Starvation Heights” (27:13–29:20)

• Primitive Conditions: The facility consisted mainly of rough cabins and Hazard’s own cottage, where she often performed autopsies in the bathtub.
• Fleecing the Dead: Patients’ wills would inexplicably leave estates to Hazard or her institution—raising suspicion.

6. The Death of Claire Williamson and Dramatic Aftermath (35:02–41:44)

• Claire’s Passing: After 50 days, Claire died weighing less than 50 pounds. Hazard attributed death to “liver disease,” an assertion the sisters’ governess (Margaret Conway) disputed.
• Legal Manipulation: The Hazards tried to keep Dora, claiming executorship, guardianship, and power of attorney, while demanding hefty medical fees—even as Dora hovered near death.

7. Exposé and Trial (41:02–47:07)

• Family Intervention: Margaret Conway and the sisters’ uncle John Herbert intervened, helping free Dora after negotiating a “ransom.”
• International Sensation: Hazard’s arrest for Claire’s murder and ensuing 1912 trial made global headlines. She was depicted as both a persecuted healer and a predatory grifter.
  • “She was known as the Starvation Doctor. I think they started calling her place Starvation Heights...” – Chuck (41:41)

8. The Trial: Testimonies and Quackery Unmasked (43:27–47:07)

• Overwhelming Evidence: Hundreds testified, including Dora. Hazard insisted, even under oath, that “it’s not possible to starve someone to death.”
  • “Death never results from deprivation of food, but is the inevitable consequence of vitality sapped to the last degree by organic imperfection.” – (Hazard’s book; quoted at 45:35)
• Verdict: She was found guilty—not of murder, but manslaughter. Sentenced to hard labor for 2–20 years.

9. Aftermath: Final Victims and Hazard’s Self-Destruction (47:50–50:36)

• Continued “Practice”: Pending appeal, Hazard remained free and two more patients died. Eventually imprisoned, she served less than two years before being pardoned—on condition she leave the country.
• Unrepentant: Relocated to New Zealand and profited anew—before ultimately dying in 1938, self-administering the same fasting cure that killed her victims.
  • “She herself died from her own treatment, June 24, 1938, self-administering a fasting cure.” – Chuck (50:08)

10. Cultural and Historical Impact

• Flexner Report: Cases like Hazard’s spurred reforms, professionalizing and regulating American medicine.
  • “A lot of this stuff is what you would call alternative medicine today or just sensible stuff... The problem is that some people took this to terrible extremes.” – Josh (04:58)
• Legacy: The story lives on through Gregg Olsen’s “Starvation Heights” and continues to inspire discussions about the dangers of unregulated medicine.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Quackery:
  “She was a serial killer. She just had a strange, strange method of murder.” – Josh (03:20)
• On Hazard’s Fasting Regimen:
  “Intense fasting. Enema. Enema. Enema. ...Her enemas lasted for hours sometimes.” – Josh (08:41)
• Explaining Her ‘Massage’ Technique:
  “She would pound on her patients and apparently shout, eliminate! eliminate!” – Josh (09:14)
• On Dismissing Starvation as Cause of Death:
  “She did not think that was a viable way of dying. She’s basically like, you can’t starve someone to death. It’s not possible.” – Chuck (23:47)
• On Her Hypocrisy and Greed:
  “Most doctors who lose patients don’t also fleece them of their estate.” – Josh (49:45)
• On Hazard’s Bizarre Logic in Court:
  “Death never results from deprivation of food, but is the inevitable consequence of vitality sapped to the last degree by organic imperfection.” – (Hazard's book, read at 45:35)
• On Irony:
  “She herself died from her own treatment, June 24, 1938, self-administering a fasting cure.” – Chuck (50:08)

---

Key Timestamps

• Linda Hazard’s Background & Methods: 04:00–10:29
• Meeting the Williamson Sisters: 11:45–15:20
• Arrival at Wilderness Heights & Escalation: 28:06–29:20
• Death, Legal Battles, and Escape: 35:02–41:00
• Trial and Courtroom Drama: 43:27–47:07
• Aftermath and Hazard’s Fate: 47:50–50:36

---

Final Thoughts

Josh and Chuck intersperse the tragic tale with trademark humor, but never downplay the gravity of Hazard’s crimes. The episode is a stark reminder of the dangers posed by charismatic quacks, the vulnerability of patients seeking alternative treatments, and the power of family intervention. In bringing this history to life, they illuminate how tragic stories like Starvation Heights ultimately led to stricter regulation and protection for medical patients today.

---

Recommended Reading:

• "Starvation Heights" by Gregg Olsen (1997)

---

For those who haven’t listened:
This episode is a compelling blend of true crime and medical history—delivering both insightful context and a cautionary tale about belief, desperation, and the dangers of unproven medical “cures.”

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Chuck Bryant]

Guaranteed Human.

[Sponsor Voice]

Guys, we gotta talk about your secret late night Internet searches. You know the ones. Bumpy leg rash, hair loss, itchy bum. Trying to figure out your body by endlessly searching for answers. We all do it and it never works. Thankfully, there's Amazon Health AI. It can connect your symptoms with your medical history to offer personalized care 24 7. So call off the search. Amazon Health AI is here. Healthcare just got less painful.

[Josh Clark]

Work can be a little weird. Cringy training seminars, coworkers who won't stop talking about their plant. Forgetting the mute button at an inopportune moment. We have to deal with a lot on any given workday. Sometimes it can feel hard to thrive and move forward in your career. Well, that's where LinkedIn comes in. LinkedIn helps you get ideas and insights from experts in your field, connect with people professionally, grow your network and access tools designed to help you find the right fit for your next role. Whether you're just getting started figuring out your next move or looking to accelerate your career, LinkedIn is built to support you at every stage. Because LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Visit LinkedIn.comKnowStuff to learn more. Stuff at Sea is a five night adults only sailing trip that brings the Stuff podcast universe to life. On board. This voyage is a culture soaked escape where pink sand paradise meets curious minds. The sailing round trip from New York City to Bermuda on October 2 7, 2026. This voyage drops you straight into the iHeart podcast stuff universe on top of the adults only experience you already love. You'll get live podcast episode recordings, behind the scenes sessions, themed activations and more unmissable onboard moments. Learn [e-mail] Stuff welcome to Stuff youf

[Production Announcer]

Should Know, a production of iHeartrad.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. And Chuck's here too. Jerry's here too. And I'm here too. That's me, Josh. And this is Stuff you should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

They were all three feeling Weird edition.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that strange? So, yeah, I said that I was just feeling kind of off today and you said me too. And Jerry said me three.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. What does that mean?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. But I mean that is very. That's remarkable to me that all three of us, I mean, we all have three different personalities. We don't like, you know, we don't live together, despite what most people think.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Not anymore.

[Josh Clark]

No. So I don't know what it is. Maybe something's in retrograde in something's house or something like that.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know, that whole thing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff you should know is in retrograde, whatever that means.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, we'll do our best with this. I'll do my best not to break out in tears.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I think we'll be okay. And big thanks to Julia for helping us put together this episode on one of the quacks of all quacks. I feel like we have covered quite a few quacks over the years.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. This one isn't as bad as that one guy that we did though. But she's up there for sure. I mean, I think she still has her supporters. Like you can still buy her books online. Yeah, but most people who are familiar with their case are like, she was a serial killer.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

She just had a strange, strange method of. Of murder. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Of bleeding people of their money.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And their life force.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

As Tobe Hooper might put it.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, we're talking about a woman named Linda Burfield. Perry Hazard. There's at least two hyphens in there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And she was born in the 19th century, but was doing most of her work in the late 19th, early 20th century. And she was a person who was vehemently opposed, like from what I could tell, like very seriously. Like this was her personal philosophy against what would be called modern medicine today. But at the time was, you know, just starting out, as we'll see.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. She was a self described fasting specialist. She had no medical degree. She did have wealthy patients, and I was about to say patrons, but I guess they were patients. And she said she was the only fasting specialist in the world. This was sort of the time of the sanitarium, sanatorium world where you could go off and practice some very questionable methods of. Of healing people.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, like the Kellogg brothers in Battle Creek.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly. Because you know that we had not in the United States yet set up sort of rules around the. The medical world at this point.

[Josh Clark]

No, but it's coming. It's like right around that time and in part because of so much quackery that was going on at the same time. A lot of this stuff is what you would call alternative medicine today or just sensible stuff. Like the Kellogg brothers had a bunch of weird stuff and their whole jam was fairly weird. But if you boiled everything down to what they were saying, a lot of it was like diet and exercise, which is just great advice today as far as health is concerned. The problem is it's like some people took this to terrible extremes. Other people were peddling just like outright fake and dangerous medicines. Like there were, there were. The outliers were so bad that they were ruining it for everybody who actually had some legitimate stuff that they were doing. And Linda Hazzard was an outlier, although, again, I think she was a true believer in herself and her. Her cure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. But, you know, to be clear, she was not serving up bowls of granula. She was killing people. Like, I think 15 patients starved to death under her watch.

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

And she would eventually go to. Go to trial for. For the murder of one.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it was a sensation in 1912, a real sensation. Let's talk about Linda Burfield, Perry Hazard, who we're just going to call Linda Hazard from here on out. But she was born Linda Burfield in Minnesota in 1867, as most people in 1867 were born.

[Chuck Bryant]

What, rurally?

[Josh Clark]

Rurally. And a lot of them in Minnesota. I think something like 98% of births in 1867 took place in Minnesota.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's incredible.

[Josh Clark]

She actually had an experience. She said she wrote again, a bunch of books, 11 by my count.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, wow.

[Josh Clark]

And so she said, according to herself, that she had been. She had run into modern medicine as a child and this doctor had given her some pills, blue mass pills that are essentially mercury pills. And they were like fairly regularly used at the time. But they did not sit very well with her.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, it made her really sick. Like this again, this is the day when they would, you know, a doctor would say, like, here, take this thing because it'll cure basically anything you have. And that's always the red flag, even if it's not pure snake oil, the sort of cure all thing. And it made her really sick, very memorably so, like digestively for the most part. But after that she was like, I'm done with doctors and I'm going to eventually be my own doctor and be a doctor to other people. She married a guy named Edwin Perry in 1886, had a couple of kids, got divorced, and apparently I don't know if that led to her divorce when she just sort of went center of left as far as her care goes. Do you think that was it?

[Josh Clark]

It's possible. That was the impression I have too, but I'm not sure. There's so much just random stuff that people say about her that may or may not be true. There's a lot of surmising.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think it said center of left

[Josh Clark]

too, by the way. Yeah. The thing is Chuck is. Everyone knew what you meant, so that counts as communication. You know, don't be such a prescriptionist.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Left of center. But she married Perry, got divorced, and then fell under the care of Dr. Edward Dewey, who was a faster. He preached fasting. He basically said that, you know, every disease that we have comes from habitual eating in excess. Basically, like you're out eating what your stomach and your gastric juices can handle.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. That's the sum total of Linda Hazard's whole thing. I mean, she had a three prong approach, which was intense fasting. Enema. Enema. Enema. I've read that her enemas lasted for hours sometimes.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think that was also the title of your second lp, right?

[Josh Clark]

It was my cover songs of William Shatner's cover, Right? That's right. Yeah. That's actually an appropriate title for that. Or lobotomy. Lobotomy. Lobotomy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And then the other one was powerful massage, that I think calling a massage is fairly generous. She would pound on her patients and apparently shout, eliminate. Eliminate. Because again, she's trying to get undigested food and poop that's left over out of the body. And by fasting, you're not introducing more food. You're letting the body rest while getting rid of the food that's been undigested. That's the source of all of your diseases.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Like you drank the colon cleanse before your first colonoscopy. Kind of empty.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. Yeah. Oh, she would have loved that stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, probably. So she did take a few nursing classes. You know, we have to mention that. I'm not trying to legitimize her or anything, but she did take a few osteopathic nursing classes. She opened a fasting therapy practice in Minneapolis there.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is when she went by Dr. Linda Burfield Perry, even though she was divorced from Edwin Perry. And, yeah, she said, like, come on in. I'll beat on you. I will not let you eat anything. Like, really? Not at all. As we'll see. Let's hold onto that little factoid, like how little these people are eating.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

But she would find love again in 1903, or find something in the way of a swindler named Samuel Hazard, who was a. He would go to jail for bigamy because he was already married and I guess did not get divorced and also married Linda Burfield. And so he went to jail for a couple of years and then got out of jail. And they're like, all right, we're good to Go, let's go to Seattle.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And that's where her practice really started. The two of them together, like, really kind of established this. Well, they called it Wilderness Heights. And it was supposed to be like a sanitarium or retreat where you went and got this fasting cure. And it's like you said, you have to be wary of cures that cure everything. Yeah. And that was very much the case with her. She apparently was saying, like, once you go through the fasting cure and you get all this crud out, you're set, like, everything from. You can go have a kid and have no pain during childbirth. You're not going to get toothaches anymore. If you're an alcoholic, you won't be an alcoholic anymore. If you're depressed, no more depression. Like it's a cure all from her stance, that's how she basically advertised it, I guess.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So she's the main player here. Samuel, her husband, is a little bit in the background, but he'll pop up here and there when it comes to the financials. And then our other couple of players are Claire and Dora Williamson. They were English. They were daughters of an English military person, Evelyn Dorothy. Her name was Dora. She went by Dora Williamson. She was born in India in 1873. And then her sister, Enid, Lillian. Claire Williamson was born in London in 1877. And they were basically from teenagers on, had no parents. I think their father died after Claire was born, and then their mom died about 16 years later. So they were, you know, they were orphaned teens who were really, really rich and really, really tight, very close with one another, and seemed to be, like, adventurous, not in a hurry to get married, which is what you would think for the time period, to get married right away. They kind of like to travel the world and go on adventures and not follow the prescribed method.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they were independent women of the 90s. The 1890s.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

So they also, though they weren't entirely orphaned, I mean, as far as, like, biological parents maybe are concerned, but they had a governess who took care of them as well. And I think kind of was. Was part of their life long before their. Their mother died. But I have the impression that she was like a. Like a. An additional mom or an additional grandmother or something to them. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

So I think that's how the richies do it.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. So just keep that in mind that these women are slightly outside of the norm. They have no problem with being slightly outside of the norm. And they are very interesting and interested people. Are very curious. And one of the things that they are focused on is natural health. Like, they. They're just super into that kind of thing. And by the time they cross paths with Linda hazard, They've done all, like, all sorts of stuff, like, any kind of cure you can think of. They've traveled to some sanitarium or sanatorium, They've traveled to some health clinic, and they've just done this whole thing. It's like, basically what they were interested in.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, they did some kind of brave things at the time. For the time period, they. They were like, I don't want to wear corsets anymore. They're super uncomfortable. And I don't. I think they're probably bad for us.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

So they didn't wear corsets anymore. They gave up meat. Eating meat was. Or being vegetarian, I guess, at the very least, was a pretty weird thing back then.

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Chuck Bryant]

So they were definitely following their own path. And then in 1910, they were in their 30s at this point, they were in the beautiful empress hotel in Victoria, British Columbia.

[Josh Clark]

You sounded like you're an announcer for the prices, Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

It looks really nice. I mean, it's still around, from what I can tell. At least the pictures look modern.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, It's a Fairmont now.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, of course it is. And I didn't mean that snarkily. Like, there are some very nice fairmonts.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. I'm glad you said that, because they're a huge sponsor of stuff. You should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, they're not. Are they?

[Josh Clark]

I don't think so.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's like, why am I not getting any free juice there?

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

So at the time, it was, like, the nicest hotel in North America. And they saw an ad in the local paper from Dr. Hazard, and I guess we can call her a doctor, but I'm mentally using scare quotes. And they wrote her a letter and said, hey, we're two sisters. We'd like to visit wilderness heights, and we're coming to Seattle.

[Josh Clark]

Nice. I think that's a great place to leave off for an ab break.

[Chuck Bryant]

Coming to Seattle. What could be better?

[Josh Clark]

Not much, man.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll be right back.

[Sponsor Voice]

Support for the show comes from public. If you look at your investing app, what do you see? An interface stuck in 1997 or something. That looks modern but feels more like a casino than a place to build wealth. Public is different. It's the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build your portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto it's all there. But what really makes Public different is the technology behind it. Imagine starting your day with an AI summarized market briefing, getting clear summaries of earnings calls the moment they end, or turning any idea into an investable index just by typing a prompt. This is what investing looks like when the tools finally catch up. Go to public.com and earn a 1% uncapped match when you transfer your portfolio. Public Investing for those who take it seriously Ad paid for by Public Holdings Brokerage services by Public Investing member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors SEC Registered Advisor crypto services by ZeroHash all investing involves risk of loss. See complete [e-mail] disclosures

[Chuck Bryant]

work can be a little weird. One minute you're in a meeting that could have been an email. The next you're trying to decode corporate jargon that somehow means nothing. And don't even get us started on the quick sync that turns into a 45 minute deep dive.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, well, the truth is, figuring out your career isn't always straightforward. Whether you're trying to grow, pivot, or just stay relevant, it can feel like you're navigating it all on your own. Well, that's where LinkedIn comes in.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. LinkedIn can help you grow your career, helping you confidently navigate your path with insights, ideas and inspiration from your professional community. You can stay up to date with the latest trends in your field, connect with people who get it, and discover opportunities tailored to your goals, your experience, and what actually matters to you.

[Josh Clark]

Whether you're looking for something new or just trying to grow where you are, LinkedIn gives you the tools and connections to move forward with confidence. Because LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Visit LinkedIn.com Nostuff to learn more.

[Sponsor Voice]

Guys, we gotta talk about your secret late night Internet searches. You know the ones. Bumpy leg rash, hair loss, itchy bum, Trying to figure out your body by endlessly searching for answers. We all do it and it never works. Thankfully, there's Amazon Health AI. It can connect your symptoms with your medical history to offer personalized care 24. 7. So call off the search. Amazon Health AI is here. Healthcare just got less painful.

[Josh Clark]

So before we get back to Claire and Dora and Linda Hazard, we should probably make like a little side note here that like, although Linda Hazard's stuff was bizarre like this, the extreme she took it to like alternative medicine was still very much a thing. We did that whole episode on the Flexner Report which basically said from now on in the United States in Europe. It's just like medical science. That's it. Anything outside of that is cuckoo quackery and should be persecuted and run out of town on a rail, essentially. And that. That. So this was the time when you could still be an alternative medicine practitioner. You could still be a out and out quack.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And there was no law against that yet. And this was definitely the, like, the gray area that Linda Hazard fell in.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I think her case, and especially the case with these two sisters in particular, like, it wasn't the leading reason, but it was definitely evidence as they move forward with stuff like the Flexner report of, like, changes is needed. Their fasting had been around for a long, long time. Obviously, people fasted in the Bible. People fasted in ancient Greece. I think Hippocrates and Pythagoras both were into fasting. So that was not a new thing. Fasting is still a thing. And detoxes and cleanses and, you know, we've done our fair share of podcasting on that kind of stuff. So none of this is new or old.

[Josh Clark]

No. We did one on corsets, too. I just remembered.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. One of the other things that is definitely old about this is that whole idea of undigested food being this source of all disease that's ayurvedic in nature, too. Ancient Asian Indian medical practice basically says, if you have undigested food or a buildup of poop or whatever in your system, all disease emanates from that. So even Dr. Edward Dewey was not exactly, like, groundbreaking with that idea.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And people were like, it all comes from the poop. And they're like, have you smelled this stuff? There's no way that's good.

[Josh Clark]

It's ghee roast. What if poop.

[Chuck Bryant]

You know, I guess we're going there. I'm going there.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

What if poop didn't smell like that at all? And I'm not saying, oh, what if it smelled like, you know, something great? Like, what if it just literally had no odor and that was it? Like, would the world be a really a better place? I say yes.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I guess. Sure. I guess. I don't smell enough poop in any given day that it really ruins the world for me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I mean, you have your outhouse.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. But I. Steer yourself. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I was just curious, like, on the, like, the divorce rate, like, what all would change? Airports. Airport.

[Josh Clark]

Happens. Okay. Yes. Airports. That's a really good point right there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. That's the worst.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It really is really Bad. Like that's a good reason not to fly before, like 10:00am like, it's one

[Chuck Bryant]

thing to be married to somebody, but you don't want to smell the poop of 12 strangers.

[Josh Clark]

No, no, you don't. That's why no one should poop in public bathrooms. They shouldn't even have toilets in there. All urinals all the time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they should have urinals and signs that say, hold it. Right, Just hold it.

[Josh Clark]

Have a poop, Go to jail.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so sorry to get to go off on a tangent there about poop. I was just kind of. I've never done that particular thought experiment.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, well, I liked it.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so she had her big, big book. I mean, she had 11 of them. But I feel like the one. As far as this goes, this most relevant is the one from 1908. It's called fasting for the Cure of Disease. And that's where she laid out the program, which is just those three things really fast get beaten on and get those, as Josh says, enema, enema, enema. And the first person to die from this treatment, she wrote the book after six years after this, which is pretty disturbing. But in 1902, at her Minneapolis practice, there was a woman who was partially paralyzed and very sadly, she died on day 37 of a 40 day fast. And Linda Hazard, as the doctor said, cause of death, paralysis.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that would be a recurring theme, as we'll see.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

Because she also, she was declaring the cause of death for her patients as a physician, even though she wasn't really a physician. And I guess still, even at this time, under circumstances like this, the local coroner would still take a look at any dead body. Saw the body of this woman, Gertrude Jung, and was like, I don't know that this was paralysis that did this because she's pretty emaciated. Let's perform an autopsy and see what happens. Looked inside of poor Gertrude Jung and said, yep, she died of starvation, just as I suspected.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. And as we'll see later, Linda Hazard didn't think that was a viable way of dying. She's basically like, you can't starve someone to death. It's not possible.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

So she's wrong about that. But she did not have a medical license, so she could not be like, brought up on charges or anything. She was telling this woman to fast, and the woman was fasting. She didn't have her locked up and chained to a bed or anything like that. She was just following the advice of the wrong person.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. And, yeah, Linda Hazard could just shrug and be like, you know, what are you gonna do?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

This was, like, years after when she and her husband Samuel moved to Seattle and started their practice together. So that's not why she moved. This was just the first body in her long body count, essentially.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, bodies. You know, people started dying at her practice in Washington as well. And there in Washington at the time, you could be grandfathered in as far as what kind of alternative medicine you were practicing. So she was kind of all good there. In 1907 is when she started treating patients in Washington. And, you know, right away, again, this wasn't like, the weirdest stuff at the time. So she had some of the elite of Washington, like state legislators coming there. It wasn't like, oh, that weird lady in the woods that's killing people. It was sort of the fashion of the day in some ways.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Also, there was a real deference to her from the local population, which were typically Swedish immigrants who were not necessarily formally educated. They didn't have a lot of money. So this was like, she made a lot of money, we should say multiple times throughout her career. So she was wealthy. She had a lot of land. She was a doctor. So she said she was much more highly educated than anyone else in the area that they knew. So she. She, like, she was popular, and people just kind of respected her in this area, too. So in addition to these wealthy and kind of elite, you know, alternative medicine file patrons and customers, just the local people who had nothing to do with this, still thought fairly highly of her, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. Even though people were dying. I think by the time the Williamson's sisters arrived in 1911, seven patients had died under her care, six from starvation for what looked to be starvation. And what was also learned was, like you said, she performed all the autopsies herself. And it was also revealed that the estates of these people were left to the sanatorium. So she was also taking their money, even though it was from the outside, under the guise of. They believed in her so much, they wanted her practice to continue.

[Josh Clark]

Yes, exactly. And this is where it really becomes murdery, you know?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Like super nefarious.

[Josh Clark]

Something else that was gross that I found was. So the Wilderness Heights was like, a few, like, a handful of primitive cabins. And then her cottage. And her cottage still stood until, like, 2014, 2015.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, wow.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And you could go into her cottage, and it was still. There were still furnishings in it, including bathtub. And the bathtub of her cottage is where she was Performing her autopsies.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, geez.

[Josh Clark]

So that, to me, kind of like really gets across. Like, this is not like a super polished outfit, you know what I mean?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

And I think that's important to keep in mind, too. She basically built some rough hewn cabins in the woods in Washington and called this, like, her sanitarium.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And this is, by the way, in Olala Woods, Washington.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. So close to Walla Walla.

[Chuck Bryant]

So close. So Claire and Dora get there in February of 1911, and she was like, hey, we're not gonna stay here in Wilderness Heights. I'm not sure why she did this. I have a feeling that she knew that she had some big fish on the line.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's what I mean, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

So she took them to Seattle instead, and she basically lied to him and said that the Allala woods retreat wasn't completed yet, even though I think it clearly was. And so they put them up in some apartments in downtown Seattle, started their fasting treatment and the vigorous massage, and they were eating two cups of vegetable broth. Sounds like basically canned tomato juice a day.

[Josh Clark]

I also saw, I think Dora later said, that they were made from asparagus tips, spinach, and lettuce. A broth made from that?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Veggie broth.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So not anything that you could possibly even remotely get full off of. Yeah. Like you said, I think a cup twice a day.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

That's just. Yeah. So you're going to lose weight very quickly. And this was like 40 plus days of fasting that hazard was prescribing to her patients. Right. And so I think the both of the Williamson sisters made it to 50 days before they were transferred to Wilderness Heights. They didn't walk. They were on stretchers. That's how they got to Wilderness Heights from their apartments in downtown Seattle.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I mean, from what I can tell, they weren't screaming on the way, like, get me help. Like, it feels like they were either all in still on this or just so out of it at this point. They didn't know any better, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yes. Or they were asking for help, but they were asking for it. Like Stevie from Malcolm in the Middle, where they were like, get help.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's pretty good, Stevie.

[Josh Clark]

Thanks.

[Chuck Bryant]

Did you watch the reboot of that?

[Josh Clark]

No reboot. I can't. Give me one reboot that was as good as the original or even close.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I can't bring any reboots to mind at all. So I don't know. But you're. You're pretty much right. Like, even the great kids in the hall, like, it was just okay.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

I kind of want to watch the Malcolm in the Middle one, though.

[Josh Clark]

Oh. Oh, you haven't seen it either?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, but I heard it was pretty good, actually.

[Josh Clark]

All right, does Frankie Muniz. Has his voice changed?

[Chuck Bryant]

No, it's exactly the same. And so is what's his face? What was his name? Stevie.

[Josh Clark]

Stevie. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I couldn't remember. I just remember Cranston was so great.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And his daughter's great, too. We've said it before. We'll say it again on the pit. Dr. Mel is Bryan Cranston's daughter, and she does a great job.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think we said that live on stage. I don't think the listening public knows that you are now on the Pit.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, but apparently it just stopped. Like, they just stopped putting out episodes. But that last episode does not end in any way that anyone would ever end a season of tv.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, you think?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Like, Noah Wylie didn't leave yet. I don't even think his buddy fully agreed to getting the treatment he's supposed to get. What's going on with Al Hashimi? Like, the last thing we saw, she just kind of had a meltdown in her car. There's just all this stuff's up in the air.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I think that was the purpose. I think it just was cliffhanger after cliffhanger.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, yes, I can get cliffhangers, but it's almost like it just petered out. Rather than cut it. Like they just cut.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, disagree.

[Josh Clark]

All right, well, I was surprised that that was how they ended it.

[Chuck Bryant]

We just spoiled some stuff, by the way.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, we should probably.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, we didn't say anything huge. Noah Wiley didn't leave. Big deal.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. All right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Does he ever leave?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. That's what I just mean.

[Chuck Bryant]

Noah Wylie, like, he's never. He never leaves. He comes over. He overstays his welcome. Everyone's like, when's this guy gonna get on his motorcycle and drive out of here?

[Josh Clark]

It's true.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. I feel like we're really off the rails now. We should take a break and come back. Yes.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll be right back.

[Sponsor Voice]

Support for the show comes from public. Lately, the line between investing and gambling has started to blur. But let's be real. You can't build actual wealth on a coin flip. That's why Public takes a different approach. It's the investing platform where you can build a serious long term portfolio. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto. They have it all. But unlike platforms that basically just give you a buy button, public provides actual context. So when you see volatility in your portfolio, you aren't just staring at a chart, you're reading a helpful explanation about why the stock is up or down. You can even go deeper with the built in AI Research assistant. It's all about giving you the information you need to invest with conviction. Be right more often. Go to public.com and earn an uncapped 1% match when you transfer your investments. Public Investing for those who take it seriously Ad paid for by Public Holdings Brokerage Services by Public Investing member finra SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors SEC Registered Advisor all investing involves risk of loss. See complete [e-mail] disclosures

[Chuck Bryant]

work can be a little weird. One minute you're in a meeting that could have been an email. The next you're trying to decode corporate jargon that somehow means nothing. And don't even get us started on the quick sync that turns into a 45 minute deep dive.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, well, the truth is, figuring out your career isn't always straightforward. Whether you're trying to grow, pivot, or just stay relevant, it can feel like you're navigating it all on your own. Well, that's where LinkedIn comes in.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. LinkedIn can help you grow your career, helping you confidently navigate your path with insights, ideas and inspiration from your professional community. You can stay up to date with the latest trends in your field, connect with people who get it, and discover opportunities tailored to your goals, your experience, and what actually matters to you.

[Josh Clark]

Whether you're looking for something new or just trying to grow where you are, LinkedIn gives you the tools and connections to move forward with confidence. Because LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Visit LinkedIn.com knowstuff to learn more.

[Sponsor Voice]

Hey there. Before this podcast continues, I need you to fill out 37 forms about your listening history.

[Josh Clark]

I'll wait.

[Sponsor Voice]

Just kidding. That'd be ridiculous. Yet we do it every time we need healthcare. But new Amazon Health AI is different. It can connect your health history to offer personalized care so you can get help fast. Amazon Health AI Healthcare just got less painful.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right. Where we left you, Noah Wiley had not left yet. The pit. No, I'm sorry. We left the sisters in pretty bad condition. It was about 50 days into their treatment. They were obviously in really, really bad shape, having traveled by stretcher to Olala woods. And Claire died 17 days after they got to the compound there in the forest. And this is very Triggering and super upsetting. So I'm issuing a warning here. But she weighed less than £50 when she passed. And hazard's own autopsy once again determined she died of a liver disease that came from a childhood medical treatment that caused her organs to shrink. And when the governess showed up, Margaret Conway finally arrived. She told her that, and she was like, I basically raised these kids, and she didn't have any childhood medical treatment that caused her organs to shrink.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, we should just say that Margaret Conway, her governess, who we talked about earlier, she got a cable from one of them. I can't remember if it was Dora or Claire. Probably Dora.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think it was Doria.

[Josh Clark]

It just basically saying, like, please come. Here's the ship you want to take. Here's where we are. Just get here. And Margaret Conway just dropped everything. And within a month, she had traveled from Australia to Seattle. That's how long it took.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but, I mean, she was welcomed. I mean, Samuel met her in Seattle and said, all right, let's get on the train. We're gonna show you this operation. Like, it's pretty sad what's happening, but, like, we have a top notch practice here. And they brought her to the mortuary to see Claire. And she was like, that's not Claire, whoever this body is. And I get the impression that it wasn't like, she's so emaciated. I didn't recognize her. Like, I think they tried to pull a fast one on her.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, there was rumors, I guess, that the local mortuary was in cahoots with the hazards, and that they would switch out bodies that weren't emaciated who had nothing to do with wilderness heights with the emaciated bodies of their victims. So that family wouldn't be like, I think you starved my mom to death.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

So Margaret Conway was not in any way, shape, or form put off by Samuel hazard's charm or Linda hazard's authority. Like, she realized, like, that they had killed Claire. One of the dead giveaways was that Linda hazard was wearing one of Claire's robes and her favorite hat when she received Margaret Conway at the. At wilderness heights at their cottage. And that, I think, immediately rubbed Margaret Conway the wrong way. And she was like, give me Dora. I'm taking Dora home. And Linda and Samuel said, not so fast.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, well, Dora was in the same shape. She weighed about 50 pounds, was barely alive at this point. And so, yeah, she asked for her. And the hazards were like, actually, we're the executor of her estate. She is under Our legal guardianship forever. And my husband Samuel, has power of attorney over all of her and the family's financial matters. And not only that, is, you've got a medical bill you need to pay. You owe us two grand.

[Josh Clark]

It's about 70k today.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Margaret Conway is like, well, I don't have 70 grand. I have no idea how to overturn a legal guardianship. But it just so happened that Claire and Dora's uncle, John Herbert, was just up in Portland, not very far away. Even back in 1911. 1910, down in Portland. Oh, yeah. You're sorry.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's gotta be, right?

[Josh Clark]

No, 100% it is.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

I have. I have. Which show we did backwards. Usually we do Seattle first and then Portland. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. So anyway, John Herbert was down in Portland, and Margaret Conway got in touch with him. Is like, I need your help. Like these. Claire's been killed, and Dora was in big trouble. She's about to die, and these two hucksters have, like, all sorts of legal mumbo jumbo going on. And John Herbert got involved. He's like, I'm a man, and this is the Edwardian era. So everybody listen to me. And that's when things started moving.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. Samuel Hazard did produce a document. It was a typewritten statement that he said, claire, you know, dictated this to us on her deathbed. But she didn't sign it because she was too weak to sign it because of the whole liver issue. It said, to my relatives and friends, I'm writing the statement to say that Dora and I entered on this course of treatment only after thorough investigation, that we have continued it voluntarily, and that if death occurs, I believe that it is inevitable that it would have come in any circumstances, which is like. I mean, it sounds like a child wrote that to get out of being in trouble, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Right, Exactly. So, I mean, just that last line about if she dies, it was inevitable anyway. Just so smacks of Linda Hazard's philosophy that you can't starve to death. Yeah, It's. It was just very clearly fake. So John Herbert gets involved. Thanks to Margaret Conway. They find, get this. The vice consul of the British embassy in Tacoma. Let all that sink in for a second. Yeah, they get them involved, and they get the guardianship overturned. Herbert gets the $2,000 unpaid bill negotiated down to $1,000, and essentially pays a ransom for Dora to be released. And in the meantime, once he has Dora back, he starts looking into some of these other patients and finds, like, Dora and Claire were far from the only victims who Essentially had been exploited financially while they were out of their minds from starvation.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. So it's, you know, just like the movie scene. It's starting to sort of add up in his head. And he brings this evidence in to the authorities there in the county, and they investigate, obviously. And Linda Hazard was arrested for murder, for, I think, murder in the first degree of Claire Williamson and for obvious financial fraud. And it was a. You know, you said earlier it was sensational. It was a big deal. International press, you know, first they had to find out where the Olalla woods was. And then they came there and started covering this case. And she was known as the Starvation doctor. I think they started calling her place Starvation Heights instead of. What was it?

[Josh Clark]

Wilderness Heights.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Wilderness Heights.

[Josh Clark]

Quite a burn.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's a pretty good one. And they, you know, there's a lot of speculation flying around, like, you know, that she had this hold over people. There was rumors that she may have been hypnotizing them to keep them under her hold. But like you mentioned earlier, there still are. And certainly back then had people, either former patients or wealthy benefactors or other naturopaths that were like, hey, you know, she's a woman practicing outside the box medicine, and that's why she's being prosecuted.

[Josh Clark]

Yes, we should say that. It actually took a lot of leaning on the Kitsap county prosecutor where Wilderness Heights was located to actually prosecute this crime, because, again, she had a lot of local support, and there were a lot of people who were like, she's being persecuted by these Brits who are like, total out of towners, and they're being supported by vocal people from the American Medical association who want only doctors to practice their way. And basically this woman's being persecuted as a witch, essentially. So she did have a lot of supporters, but she had a lot of detractors, too. It seems like, on balance, at least as far as the press is concerned, she was generally viewed as a murderer and a grifter, I guess. A grifting murderer. Terrible combination.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I think the first thing she said was this. The first guy that came at me was an ambassador stationed in Tacoma. Tacoma. Everyone. Does that sound remotely believable, right?

[Josh Clark]

It does sound kind of made up.

[Chuck Bryant]

So January 15, 1912. The trial starts. They lay out their evidence, basically, which was all pretty obvious, like she's trying to fleece these people of money when they have no control over their own senses. And I think I had about 100 people testify for the prosecution. There were lots of doctors being paraded up there as expert witnesses. And Dora even took the stand and talked about this scene, basically near the end where she was bedside and Claire is trying to whisper Stevie style something to Dora, like her sister as she's passing, essentially. And every time she tried to speak, Ms. Hazzard is. Or Mrs. Hazzard, as she called them, she kept talking, and I couldn't hear. Like, she would lean in and she'd say, dory. And she would interrupt and say, how did you spell that name again? And like, she would not let her. I mean, this is one of the most upsetting parts. Like, she wouldn't even let her sister perhaps even say goodbye. Who knows what she was trying to say.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And apparently Also, I guess Dr. Hazzard cut in and was like, I'm going to give Claire one of my famous massages. And pressed down so hard that Claire lost consciousness. And shortly after that, Dora was told that Claire had died. And so, yeah, those probably would have been her last words to her that Linda Hazzard basically interrupted on purpose.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think she actually died. Dora found out she died the next morning, so she didn't get that chance later either. The defense, of course, comes in and said that, you know, it wasn't the treatment. She didn't die of starvation. That's when Linda Hazzard very famously says, you know, it's not possible to starve someone to death. And, you know, trots out her book in the middle of court and says, here, read this. And this is the quote from the book, death in the fast. Death never results from deprivation of food, but is the inevitable consequence of vitality sapped to the last degree by organic imperfection.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, that's quackery if. Like 19th century quackery if I've ever heard it, you know, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

But, I mean, it is technically true. Like, you die from your organs failing, but your organs get their vitality from the food that you're not getting. So it's kind of like potato, Potato, essentially. Yes, it is. Very. It's a pretty glib workaround, I guess, but she stood by that. She was like, no, you can't die from starvation. That's why she said Claire died from liver disease. That's why her first patient, Gertrude Jung, first patient to die, she died from paralysis. It's whatever was wrong with you ahead of time, that's what killed you, not starvation. I don't know if Linda Hazard truly believed that. There's actually some evidence at the very end that we'll see, but that's Just so dumb. And I have the impression that Lynn Hazard was not a dumb person at all. I just can't believe that she believed that.

[Chuck Bryant]

I feel like, given the financial piece, I feel like she knew what she was doing. Okay, that's just my take on it.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So again, there were some supporters who were like, hey, you know, like she's being persecuted. And the jury said, you know what, we're gonna split the middle here. We're going to find her guilty on a charge of manslaughter, not murder. So everybody can be unhappy.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, basically, she was sentenced to 2 to 20 hard labor at Walla Walla Penitentiary.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that wasn't it, though, because she appealed the case and appealed it and appealed it all the way up to the United States. Or was it the state supreme court?

[Josh Clark]

No, the US Supreme Court.

[Chuck Bryant]

From what I understand, the US Supreme Court took about 18 months to get there. And, you know, she had supporters sending in letters the whole time saying to release her. The State of Washington did revoke her license to practice medicine, but she did continue to practice. Two more deaths happen after Claire Williamson, and then she finally goes to prison eventually at Walla Walla.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So while she's appealing and is out and about on bail, two more people die. She kills two more people. That's just crazy. She finally gets to Walla Walla, like you said. And that two to 20 years is what's known as an indeterminate sentence. Like, you have to serve at least a minimum, but you're not going to serve beyond 20. Right. So she was in there for, I think, less than two years before she was paroled. She very famously knitted ponchos for the other inmates. And when she did get out, I think within six months, she had been pardoned by the Governor of Washington.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, you know, it's kind of hard to get super accurate information for this old time stuff, but I did see in the Washington archives there was a stipulation that she had to leave the country if they were gonna let her out. So regardless of whether or not that's true, she did leave the country. We'll get to that in a second. Dora also left the country. She went back to England and settled down in Gloucester and lived. Sounds like a pretty great full life after that. She got married in 1914 to Reverend Windham Allen Chaplin and lived to be 71 years old. Died in 1945. So she fully recovered from her quote unquote treatment. And Linda Hazzard went to New Zealand to hock her wares.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And was very well received there during the trial. One of her vocal supporters was the Sydney Morning Herald, I think, or at least some columnist in there. And she made a ton of money again when she showed up in New Zealand. Like, people just flocked to her for her treatment. And I think she long said like, hey, yeah, 15 people died in my care from the fasting, but you know, I've had hundreds of other patients. So is that really that bad? And people are like, yeah, it is kind of bad. But also, you know, most doctors who lose patients don't also fleece them of their, their estate. Like, that's really what took it. Like, murder is bad. Murder for profit is really bad.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I agree. We're going to rank murder.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. Let's just face it. Murder for profit is really bad.

[Chuck Bryant]

I agree. I think the piece that you were talking about, the one additional little piece of information that maybe she did believe, fully believe this stuff, is that she herself died from her own treatment, June 24, 1938, self administering a fasting cure. So, you know, I don't think it was pure hokum in her mind. I think she probably did believe it to a certain degree, but I think she took it to extremes to fleece people for sure.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's Linda Hazzard.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. There's a book that a lot of this came from from 1997. It's called starvation Heights by a local named Greg Olson. So shout out to Greg Olson in

[Josh Clark]

that book if you can't find it. Add a second or a third G, I guess to the end of Greg Olson's name and it should come up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, is it G R E G, G?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Probably won't come up on a search that's just G R E G Olson in Starvation Heights 1997. But if you add that extra G, it will definitely come up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, and if you just google Greg Olson, you'll probably come up with the Atlanta Braves catcher from the 1997 90s or early 2000s.

[Josh Clark]

He was a catcher, huh?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, you got anything else about Greg Olson? Whether you're talking about the author or

[Chuck Bryant]

the catcher, no, he was not a belly scratcher.

[Josh Clark]

Belly itcher,

[Chuck Bryant]

I think. Scratcher, Pitcher, not a belly itcher. Catcher, not a belly scratcher.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay. I've never heard that second part. You just blew my mind, buddy. Well, since we started talking about Braves pitchers and childhood rhymes, I think it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. This is from Daniel. Hey, guys, love the episode of maple syrup and all your episodes I want to let you know something similar. In Australia, there's a tree called the cide gum or the eucalyptus gunny, and it produces a similar sweet SAP. Guys, I couldn't find any evidence of it being eaten as is, but the local Palawa people of Tasmania would let it naturally ferment to turn it into a cider like drink called Waialena. Of course, the tree is now incredibly rare, mostly confined to one valley in Tasmania due to all the usual good things. I sense sarcasm there. As a white Australian, I would love for you to do an episode on bush tucker. So much knowledge was lost due to colonization and genocide, but there's still so much amazing information out there. And that is from Daniel.

[Josh Clark]

Nice, Daniel. Thank you. Have not heard of cider gum tree?

[Chuck Bryant]

No. Or bush tucker?

[Josh Clark]

No. So those are really great ideas and thanks a lot for that. Cannot wait till we get back to Australia so we can try that cider.

[Chuck Bryant]

Bush tucker is a food, apparently.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I think bush tucker is like knowledge. That was the impression I have.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I just looked it up and it's called. It's a food.

[Josh Clark]

So, you know, thanks for that. You just gave me the rope, didn't you?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I mean, I tried to tell you it was.

[Josh Clark]

It was food. Well, I hadn't realized that you looked anything up. I thought we always discussed before we at looked. Look things up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, sorry. Clickety click. Type, type.

[Josh Clark]

There you go. Now I know. If you want to be like Daniel and send us a great email, we would love that. You can send it off to stuffpodcastheartradio.com

[Production Announcer]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show goes.

[Kel Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Kel Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Production Announcer]

If you're feeling off fatigue, mood changes, skin shifts, yet your labs say everything's normal. You're not alone. Meet Oestra from Inner Balance, the first all in one prescription Strength Bioidentical hormone cream that's natural and effective and only takes one drop, 10 seconds a day. Oestra replaces five to six products women typically use to treat symptoms and is third party tested to ensure the highest quality. Visit innerbalance.com today to start feeling like yourself again. That's innerbalance.com this is Sophia Donner from

[Podcast Announcer]

OK Storytime this summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video and listen. We're not saying you need another obsession, but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories, and the book to screen for favorites you've already read twice, so why not watch them a third time off campus? L the Love Hypothesis and more Slow Burns Second Chances chemistry you can feel through the screen and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got binge worthy series can't miss movies perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems or procrastinating as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on prime. This is an iHeart podcast.

[Chuck Bryant]

Guaranteed Human.