The Texas Chain Saw Massacre: Masterpiece

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: The Texas Chain Saw Massacre – Masterpiece

Podcast: Stuff You Should Know
Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Release Date: October 28, 2025
Summary by [Your Name]

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Episode Overview

This Halloween-adjacent episode unpacks Tobe Hooper’s 1974 cult classic, “The Texas Chain Saw Massacre.” Josh and Chuck explore why this notorious horror film is hailed as a masterpiece—not only among genre fans, but by film critics, academics, and directors alike. Through a detailed analysis of its shocking origins, low-budget production, and its lasting influence, the hosts offer both personal reactions and film history insights for longtime fans and newcomers.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Duality of the Movie: Masterpiece or Nightmare?

• Josh and Chuck debate the film’s tone:
  • Comedy or pure horror?
    • “Some people approach it like a dark comedy, and you’ll probably laugh out loud in a couple of parts.” – Josh (02:40)
    • “I don’t see any dark comedy notions about it whatsoever. I think it’s one of the most terrifying movies I’ve ever seen.” – Chuck (03:26)
• Personal reactions:
  • Both hosts recently rewatched the film; both found it still disturbing, with Chuck noting its relentless, unsettling impact.
    • “Every time, it gets me in a place where I’m just like… my face is just gnarled up the whole time.” – Chuck (04:34)

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2. Plot Summary and Structure

(Full plot breakdown with major scenes and their significance.)

Cold Open: The Docudrama Approach

• John Larroquette’s narration sets a pseudo-realistic, “true crime” atmosphere.
  • “The film you are about to see is an account of the tragedy…” – Chuck reading Larroquette (21:44-22:31)
• The narrative claims events occurred October 18, 1973, prefiguring found footage and true crime formats.

The Road Trip and Unfolding Nightmare

• Five friends visit a rural Texas cemetery to check on a family grave after reports of grave-robbing.
• Introduction of key horror tropes: the teenagers’ road trip, an abandoned house, and the menacing landscape.

The Hitchhiker and Descent into Terror

• The encounter with Nubbins, the hitchhiker, is highlighted as a scene that “dances on the edge of ridiculous but is deeply disturbing.” (26:10-27:27)
  • The hitchhiker cuts himself and Franklin, establishing the film’s unsettling tone.

The Sawyer House and Brutal Realism

• Kirk and Pam’s deaths are discussed as abrupt and brutal, breaking from the tension-building norms of later horror films.
  • “The speed at which you see Leatherface for the first time...and the ferocity he slams shut that metal sliding door is just terrifying.” – Chuck (28:37)
• The iconic dolly shot following Pam to the house is praised as “one of the best Dolly shots of all time.” (29:34-30:25)

The Dinner Scene—Relentless Terror

• The infamous family dinner scene is described as “maybe the most disturbing scene” (38:29), with Grandpa attempting to kill Sally, symbolizing the film’s blend of grotesque horror and bizarre familial ritual.

The Final Chase and Climax

• Sally’s chase through the woods, leaping through windows, and the sunrise escape is a study in endurance and trauma.
  • The ending is abrupt and leaves the audience “just dead silent” in theaters. (44:26)
  • Leatherface’s chainsaw dance against the sunrise becomes an iconic image of horror cinema.

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3. Origins and Cultural Influences

Tobe Hooper’s Inspiration Sources

• Ed Gein’s real-life crimes: skin suits and grave robbing inspired Leatherface and other iconic horror film villains (Psycho, Silence of the Lambs). (07:21)
• A med student friend who wore a cadaver's face as a mask for Halloween; Montgomery Ward chainsaws, and Christmas shopping stress. (07:57-08:43)
• “Hansel and Gretel” cited as a loose narrative influence. (09:00)

Scriptwriting and Titles

• Written by Hooper and Kim Henkel using outlines mapped on floors; titled “Texas Chainsaw Massacre” by Warren Scarron, Texas’s first film commissioner. (11:18-11:30)
• Alternate titles included “Head Cheese” and “Leatherface.” (09:30-10:12)

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4. Indie Filmmaking & Production Challenges

Shoestring Budget & Casting

• Funded for $60,000, eventually costing $300,000—still a fraction of what even low-budget films required.
• Use of novice or local Austin actors, enhancing realism. Marilyn Burns (Sally) and Jim Siedow (The Cook) were exceptions with real experience. (15:18-16:00)
• John Larroquette’s narration done as a favor, paid in marijuana. (16:52-17:11)

Grueling Production Conditions

• Filming took place at a rural home outside Austin during 100°+ heat, with spoiled animal parts and no air conditioning, leading to “gamey” smells and frequent vomiting. (51:06-53:12)
• Cost-cutting meant actors wore the same clothing throughout, with no multiples available—adding to the on-screen discomfort. (53:24)
• Real engagement with props (meat, bones, animal remains) contributed to intensity.
• “The movie is about meat and it’s a case for veganism.” – referencing both Tobe Hooper and Guillermo del Toro’s reactions. (51:52)

Directorial Tactics

• Tobe Hooper manipulated cast tension and kept Leatherface actor Gunnar Hansen separated for authentic reactions. (55:06)
• Actors, particularly Marilyn Burns (Sally), suffered real physical harm—being hit with broomsticks, running through brush, and getting (accidentally) cut for realistic blood effects during filming. (56:14-57:07)

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5. Distribution, Scandal, and Box Office Success

Mobbed-Up Distributors and Money Trouble

• Distributed by Bryanston, also known for “Deep Throat,” connected to the Colombo crime family. (61:00)
• Original investors and cast were paid very little despite the film’s box office success (£8,100 to share between cast and crew). (61:51)
• Lawsuits recovered only small amounts after distributor bankruptcy; New Line Cinema picked it up later, but the filmmakers still saw little profit. (62:14-62:36)

MPAA Ratings & Censorship Battles

• Hooper initially hoped for a PG—MPAA refused due to disturbing content, even with little onscreen gore; settled for an R. (63:03)
• The film’s gore was more implied than shown—critics frequently described it as “blood-soaked,” but it’s mostly psychological horror. (65:19-66:00)
  • “People walked away thinking they just seen a ton of gore and blood and they hadn’t.” – Josh (65:51)

Critical Reception & Impact

• Initially panned but ultimately respected by critics like Roger Ebert, who called it “well made, well acted and all too effective.” (65:00)
• Outgrossed “The Great Gatsby,” “Chinatown,” “Death Wish” (grossed $26 million in 1974, or $150 million present-day). (64:22-64:47)
• Became the highest-grossing indie film of its time until overtaken by “Rocky.” (64:53)

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6. Lasting Influence & Legacy

Pioneering Horror Tropes

• Set the template for “teenagers in peril,” the “final girl,” and masked killers like Michael Myers and Jason Voorhees. (66:37-67:30)
• Cited as an influence for later horror films and directors from Rob Zombie’s “House of 1000 Corpses” to “Wolf Creek” and “X” (Maxine Trilogy). (69:34-69:57)
• “You could never remake the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and capture the spirit of the original…” – Josh (68:11)

Industry Respect

• Praised by Quentin Tarantino (one of six “perfect movies”), Stanley Kubrick (owned a 35mm print), and John Landis (who mockingly compared the remake to a shampoo commercial). (67:30; 70:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chuck’s Reaction Every Time:
  04:28 – “Jesus, this movie… If there was a camera on my face while I’m watching it, it’s just… gnarled up the whole time.”
• Josh’s Reflection:
  03:54 – “When it cuts at the end and goes to the credits, I literally said out loud, that is a great movie.”
• On the Script’s Minimalism:
  09:30 – “After that first half hour, there’s not a lot of dialogue aside from, Pam, Pam… and then Sally… and then the dinner scene.”
• On the Dinner Scene:
  38:29 – “In a movie of disturbing scenes, maybe the most disturbing scene is the dinner scene.”
• On Sally’s Ordeal:
  37:17 – “Her scream has almost a pleasing quality to it. She has a huge range… she screams a lot in this movie, but it doesn’t get annoying. It just makes the whole thing that much more terrifying.”
• On the Movie’s Legacy:
  68:11 – “You could never remake the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and capture the spirit of the original because of all the ways it was hamstrung… and the naivety of the filmmakers, which freed them up to take chances.”

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Key Timestamps for Segments

• Opening and Tone Discussion: 01:45-04:54
• Plot, Structure, and Tropes: 21:15-44:50
• Production & Filming Details: 49:10-57:27
• Distribution, Ratings, Box Office: 59:34-65:19
• Legacy, Influence, and Remakes: 66:37-70:22
• End Reactions & Listener Mail: 70:22-72:20

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Final Thoughts

Josh and Chuck’s deep-dive reveals “The Texas Chain Saw Massacre” as both genre-defining horror and an unlikely cinematic masterpiece. Its impact stems from both what’s onscreen—the gritty verisimilitude, disturbing minimalism, and relentless unease—and what happened behind the scenes: a perfect storm of creative naivety, hardship, and low-budget inventiveness. The episode, like the movie, is part film appreciation, part existential terror, and wholly entertaining.

If you haven’t seen the film (or haven’t seen it in years), this episode serves as both a history primer and a respectful defense of why it still matters.

Transcript

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[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. And there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is our episode right before our Halloween episode. You're in Stuff youf Should Know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, big coa here, obviously.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, hopefully parents aren't gonna click on this if their young children are in the car. Cause it'll probably be Texas Chainsaw Massacre something or other in the title.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's not gonna be like How Ponies Work.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

I don't wanna trick anybody.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So coa about that, obviously it's gonna have some pretty gruesome material in it. But also because we're gonna be talking a lot about this movie and we're gonna go over the plot and everything. So if it's kind of a spoiler situation where you don't wanna hear about it and you haven't seen it somehow, then tune out. But some people like to know what happens before they go into A horror movie, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Yes, but that's a great. That's a great spoiler alert. If you haven't seen it, go watch it. Like, people use the word masterpiece about this movie a lot. And, like, not just fans of the film, like sickos, like critics, like academics who teach film appreciation. Like, it is a really, really good movie, whether you like horror movies or not. Because the key to this is if you get scared at horror movies, approach it like it's a dark comedy, and it will make sense to use a dark comedy, and you will probably laugh out loud in a couple of parts. So it can be taken both ways, and sometimes in some parts, both ways at the same time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. See that? I've never understood that take, because I don't see any dark comedy notions about it whatsoever. I think it's one of the most terrifying movies I've ever seen, if not the most terrifying.

[Josh Clark]

Wow. You and Rex Reed feel the same way.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, every time I see it. And I just saw it for the first time a few years ago finally, and it's just. It's so disturbing and unsettling every single time, even though I know it's coming.

[Josh Clark]

I watched it again last night, and, yeah. So when it finished, when it cuts at the end and goes to the credits, I literally said out loud, that is a great movie. And Yumi was. I was sitting there by myself watching it, and I said it out loud. It just took it out of me. And I had never watched it as a comedy before either. I'd never even turned up that anybody considered it a comedy or dark comedy. But going into it, knowing that I definitely found some spots here or there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I didn't. Do you know what I said at the end last night out loud by myself?

[Josh Clark]

What?

[Chuck Bryant]

Jerry's gonna have to beep it. But it has that famous, just abrupt ending in Cut to Black.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And I was curled up on my couch, and I just said, jesus, this movie, like, every time it gets me in a place where I'm just like. Like, if there was a camera on my face while I'm watching it, it's just my face is just gnarled up the whole time. Like, oh, my God, it's just so disturbing.

[Josh Clark]

I think me and a lot of people would love to watch a reaction video of you watching just that. Yeah. Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

[Chuck Bryant]

A camera trained on my face for 83 minutes exactly.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And it is just 83 minutes. It's not even an hour and a half of your time, you know? Like, you just watch it breeze through it and say, that was a great movie or what you said at the end. And let me ask you this. Can you think of another horror movie that makes you feel like that whenever you watch it?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, there's quite a few movies that are still disturbing to me, but this one takes the cake for sure.

[Josh Clark]

Wow. So, yeah, if you haven't seen Texas Chainsaw Massacre and you have any kind of curiosity, I strongly urge you to pause this and go watch it and come back. Whatever, it doesn't matter. I think you can still appreciate this episode, don't you? Because it's not just about the movie itself. It's about how it was made. Because it was an independent picture. It's one of the most successful independent films of all time. And it was made by students of film, literal students of film, who loved making movies. And they made, again, a masterpiece is what a lot of people call it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And we're gonna get to the plot and go through that, as we said. But even I just wanna say, even the beginning, that first 30 minutes before they even set foot inside the bad house, that's all. Just the way it's shot and laid out. And the sound, it's just all disturbs me to no end.

[Josh Clark]

I know. And to think like it was shot by a 23 year old.

[Chuck Bryant]

I know.

[Josh Clark]

So let's talk about this. Let's get into the nuts and bolts of how the whole thing came about. How about that?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And we can only start with director Tobe Hooper, who apparently was inspired by a few different things to come up with this movie. One pretty obviously is Ed Gein, who's a serial killer who we have not covered yet. At some point we'll probably get into the skin suit making crimes of Ed Gein. Right.

[Josh Clark]

We did an episode on him.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think it's Gein, isn't it? We did a whole episode.

[Josh Clark]

We did a whole episode on Mr. Gein. The scene I didn't think we did. We did. It wasn't the best, so I can see how you wouldn't remember it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I thought we just put him in something else. Okay, we'll scratch that then.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he appeared in some episode, but we ended up making a whole episode about him.

[Chuck Bryant]

I see it now. Ed Gein, the serial killer.

[Josh Clark]

Serial killer, yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

That had to be your title.

[Josh Clark]

That's good. Yeah, I think it was. But Ed Gein, he wasn't just the inspiration for Leatherface from Texas Chainsaw Massacre. And the reason why is, if you're not familiar with Ed Gein, he wore skin suits. He was also the influence for the character Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs. And he inspired the movie Psycho. Not like Norman Bates bears any resemblance to him whatsoever. Aside from the whole cross dressing thing, I guess, is what inspired it. But more the fact that there was someone out there who was capable of doing these things inspired a movie that. About Norman Bates who's capable of doing horrible things, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So that was the first thing. The second thing was he had a friend, Tobe Hooper did the director, who was a doctor, or I guess a med student at the time, who said that he had removed the face of a cadaver and wore it as a Halloween mask. So there's one for your nightmares.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Even if he hadn't done that, to be telling people that you had done that and be serious about it, that's pretty nuts.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And then the last thing was Tobe Hooper was apparently Christmas shopping at a Montgomery Ward store one time, and it was just really, really crowded. And he was. I get the sense that he was having a bit of a panicky moment trying to get out of there and saw some chainsaws on display. And I was like, that'd be great if I could grab one of those and just cut my way out of here.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, exactly. So he put all those things together. They came together, end of 1972, beginning of 1973, into this story that just kind of clicked in his head. I also saw that Hansel and Gretel form some, like, loose influence on the whole thing, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

But he got together with a friend of his named Kim Henkel, and he and Henkel wrote the script together. They met at Tobe Hooper's house. They would map out the story arc on the floor. And then Kim Henkel would go in and type some pages and come back after a few and read it all to Tobe Hooper and get a thumbs up or down, and then they'd continue on. And they wrote the script fairly quickly, from what I understand. And they had some working titles for it that fortunately they did not go with.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, you know, one of the reasons it went quickly is because after that first half hour, there's not a lot of dialogue aside from, like, you know, Pam, Pam. And then Sally.

[Josh Clark]

Sally.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sally. And then the dinner scene. You're gonna get some more, but they're long stretches where it's just a lot of action. But, yeah, you mentioned the alternate titles. Head Cheese was one which does make an appearance in the movie, in the dinner scene, I believe. And then Leatherface was one of the titles that would go on to be the title of the 2017 prequel. Yeah, I think it was just called Leatherface, which I haven't seen any of those, by the way.

[Josh Clark]

Neither have I. I've only seen the first one, and I saw the second one.

[Chuck Bryant]

I didn't see that. I don't think I care to see any of the rest of them.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, if you're into the first one, it might not make sense to see the second one because it's such a departure, but it's still. If you take that as an actual comedy, which it is, it's kind of.

[Chuck Bryant]

Fun on its own, I might see that one. But I definitely am not interested in the prequels and the reboots and the remakes and stuff like that.

[Josh Clark]

Well, so A24 just announced last month that they're rebooting Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Would you see those?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, they're almost across the finish line. Apparently they're in the pole position to win the bid as of, like, a couple of weeks ago.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

You'd be interested to know that one of the other bidders was Oz Perkins and some other people.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah, your guy.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then Taylor Sheridan oddly put in a bid on the film and TV rights. But it looks like a 24 is in the pole position and they're talking about a TV series. So I would. I would watch that.

[Josh Clark]

I. Okay, I would, too. For sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So they came up with the script, and it was. They never actually came up with the title themselves. There was a guy named Warren Scarron who came up with the title Texas Chainsaw Massacre, one of the great titles of all time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And it's four words, if you want to be pedantic about it. Chainsaw. They have it as two words for some reason. And Warren Skerron would play a bunch of really important roles over the course of getting this movie made. And he was in a position to, because he was Texas's first film commissioner. He also apparently was an investor in the film, too, and he was a friend of a mutual friend between him and Kim Henkel, who would go on to become the production manager for the movie Ron Boseman and Scar. And also scared up the first investor, who was a former Texas legislator, state legislator named Bill Parsley, who also apparently fancied himself a movie producer.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And technically, it's five words if you count the word the cause. The first one was the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

[Josh Clark]

So you out pedanticed my own pedanticness.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, because I knew we'd hear from somebody. Okay, so who was the last person you named, Ron Bozo? Bill Parsley or Bill Parsley? Yeah, so he, you know, they came up with a few different budgets. The first one, you know, it was like, hey, what can we get? What can we make it for? And what could we really make it for if we just, you know, kind of didn't have much and still had to do it. And that was 60 grand was like, hey, that'd be awesome. It's about 388 grand a day. 40 grand was the mid level and 20 grand was the small budget that they still thought they could make it with. Even though it would have to be black and white. I could see this in black and white like a Night of the Living Dead. But there are so many great color shots in this movie, like those green eyes of Sally that are so key in the third act and the sunrise shot at the end, you know, you'd lose all that.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, speaking of third acts, I watched 30 Days of Night again, that vampire movie. Have you ever seen it? Josh Hartnett?

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't think I saw that one.

[Josh Clark]

It's not bad. But I thought of you because they show like this metal crushing, like trash compactor in the first like 10 minutes. And I thought, show a. Show a metal crushing trash compactor in Act 1, you're going to use it in Act 3. And sure enough, they did.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's classic, classic move.

[Josh Clark]

So they actually got their pie in the sky. High end budget of 60 grand. Most of it came from Bill Parsley, but there are a couple of other investors that got cobbled together and ultimately by the time the thing had its final cut, it was up to 300 grand. But even that was a paltry amount of money. Even in the mid-70s. Like this is Peanuts as far as making a movie is concerned.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, not too bad. I'll take issue with Peanuts. I mean, Rocky was made for 1.1 million and the average was 4 million even back then. But I guess I've known friends who have made movies these days for a lot less than that. So it's. I know people that would be very happy with 300 grand.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. But they're not using film stock and I'll bet that eats up a ton of budget.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Well, how about this? Can we agree on Brazil nuts?

[Chuck Bryant]

Brazil nuts, sounds good.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. So one of the ways that they cut costs, Chuck, was to hire no name actors, like inexperienced actors. And ultimately the way it would wash out, that would make the whole thing that much more realistic, which is great. These were people who might have been drama students taking film classes at UT Austin. Some of them were just Austin locals. And the other way that they cut costs was to get these casts or this cast of no name, actors who were already being paid Brazil nuts at best. Peanuts, probably. Maybe even just the P part of Peanuts.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

To defer even that amount. Most of it until after the film got made and they agreed to it. And they put together a cast of 10, plus a few extras. And the only one who had any experience whatsoever was a guy named Jim Sedow. Sedow or Sydow.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. He played the cook and one of the three brothers in the Sawyer family. Marilyn Burns as Sally. She had also been in a couple of things. She was in Robert Altman's Brewster's MacLeod, and she was actually cast as a lead in a movie in a movie called Love and Molly. That would have been before this, but she was replaced by Susan Sarandon.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And she ended up being the body double for Sarandon in that one.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think it was a bitter pill, I'm sure.

[Josh Clark]

For sure. So Jim Sydow was. His experience. Was radio soap opera actor. So that was the experience he had. And from what I could tell, he was the only SAG member. And then there's a non on screen. I guess off screen is how you put it. If you have brains. Appearance by a guy named John Larroquette. If you're a Night Court fan. And even if you're not, you're probably still familiar with John Larroquette.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I didn't know this was John Larroquette. Of my first two viewings of this. I had no idea until you've sent this along. So I don't know. I guess I didn't stay through the credits because I was always, you know, cowering in a corner or something.

[Josh Clark]

Turn it off. Turn it off. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Did not know that was John Larroquette. That was the first thing he ever did in the film business.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I didn't know that either. I ran across it. I also ran across that he was friends with Tobe Hooper and he did it as a favor. Apparently it took an hour of his time to record it. And Tobe Hooper paid him in pot. And John Larroquette apparently confirmed that to none other than Parade magazine years later.

[Chuck Bryant]

I love it.

[Josh Clark]

So you want to talk about the plot and then get into how they made this thing after that?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Should we take a break first or should we do the plot first?

[Josh Clark]

No, it's a good idea. Let's do a break.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, well everyone brace yourselves. Go, you know, chill out, do some yoga, maybe meditate. And then we'll tell you the plot of Texas Chainsaw Massacre right after this.

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Chuck and Josh.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff. You should know.

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You'Re thoughtful about where your money goes. You've got your core holdings, some recurring crypto buys, maybe even a few strategic options plays on the side. The point is, you're engaged with your investments and Public gets that. That's why they built an investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public you can put together a multi asset portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, bonds, options, crypto. It's all there plus an industry leading 3.8% APY high yield cash account. Switch to the platform built for those who take investing seriously. Go to public.com and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com paid for by Public Investing. All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. Brokerage services for U.S. listed registered securities, options and bonds in a self directed account are offered by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Crypto trading provided by BAKKT Crypto Solutions LLC. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosure there's.

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[Josh Clark]

What satisfaction. Okay, so we're back, and we're talking about the plot. And again, you already gave a spoiler alert, but it's worth saying again. If you haven't seen the movie and you want to go in fresh, don't listen to this part. Okay. Yeah, and maybe we'll shout we're done with the plot after we're done with it so that everybody can put their headphones back on.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think maybe we should read that narration since it's so short.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay. Go ahead. Yeah. Because it gets the point across.

[Chuck Bryant]

So it's sort of framed as a docudrama shot in a lot of moments, very documentary style, and they set it up as if it's a real thing. So here's John Larroquette. Well, me as John Larroquette. The film which you are about to see is an account of the tragedy which befell a group of five views, in particular, Sally Hardesty and her invalid brother Franklin. It is all the more tragic in that they were young, but had they lived very, very long lives, they could not have expected, nor would they have wished to see, as much mad and macabre as they were to see that day. For them, an idyllic summer afternoon drive became a nightmare. The events of that day were to lead to the discovery of one of the most bizarre crimes in the annals of American history. The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

[Josh Clark]

Pretty great. That was a good John Larroquette, too, by the way.

[Chuck Bryant]

Thanks. And it indicates that they all die, too, which was a nice little sleight of hand because it makes the ending a little more surprising and suspenseful, I think.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. And so you said it like this is presented as a docudrama, so people are going into it not thinking it's a documentary or that they're actually seeing real things, but that it's depicting an actual event that happened specifically on October 18, 1973. It says that's the date that this all happens, it just happens over a one day period. So that in and of itself kind of is. Was totally new. As we'll see as far as horror movies went, it was almost pre figuring the found footage genre like Blair Witch and stuff like that. And then the, the whole action starts. Everything's prompted by news that a cemetery in the middle of rural Texas, central Texas, has there been grave robbings going on? And not only grave robbings where they're just removing specific parts of bodies, they're also taking some of the bodies and basically making them into these really gruesome statues.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And it's a great way to open the movie. The opening shot and everything is just very disturbing to kind of get that ball rolling. And they are in a van, traveling, they have space cleared out for the wheelchair for Franklin. And you know, it's like it sort of set the standard. But we've seen this so many times since then, like teenagers off, you know, having a good time, going on a trip, maybe going camping or something like that. But they were sort of the first movie to do that kind of thing. It set that standard.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And the reason they were there was Franklin and Sally's grandfather was buried at that cemetery. So they're going to check to see if his grave had been dug up and they find that it's not. But while they're there, they say, hey, why don't we go check out grandfather's old homestead? We used to spend summers there once in a while. So the whole gang agrees to do that. But first they need gas and they go to a gas station, a rundown gas station slash barbecue pit that's owned by a man known as the cook, who also would turn out to be Drayton Sawyer, like who you mentioned before, one of the three brothers of this scary family. And it turns out they don't have any gas, which I've read was a big commentary on the gas shortages going on at the time. But the kids decide to head on to the what it turns out to be the abandoned Hardesty homestead. Anyway, just look around.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Did you catch the name of the gas station?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, we Slaughter Barbecue.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, that was the restaurant. It was the Last Chance Gas.

[Josh Clark]

I did see that. Yes, I totally forgot.

[Chuck Bryant]

So I immediately thought of my Last Chance garage hat that I wore for many, many years.

[Josh Clark]

Do you still have that thing?

[Chuck Bryant]

I have like four or five of them because I lost the original one in Austin, Texas.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, wow.

[Chuck Bryant]

And at south by one year and then got a patch maker here in Atlanta to make me patches and so I made, like three or four of them, but I just haven't worn those in a long time.

[Josh Clark]

I remember that very kind patchmaker replacing it. And since you lost it in Austin, I'm now convinced that there is no way it wasn't a Texas Chainsaw Massacre fan who stole that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, this Last Chance Garage, which was its own brand, but I thought Last Chance Gas was kind of fun.

[Josh Clark]

Now that I think about it. I've seen on Etsy vials of skin scrapings that say that your skin scraping. So I wonder if it came from that hat. Probably.

[Chuck Bryant]

So if it's in, it does ship.

[Josh Clark]

Out of Texas, it says.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, there you have it.

[Josh Clark]

So anyway, this gas station's out of gas, and they head on to the abandoned house and just start exploring it. But before they get there, they pick up a hitchhiker, and he turns out to be one of the Sawyers, too. But he plays this character so nuts. Yeah, he dances right along the edge of. This is ridiculous. He's being ridiculous. It's totally over the top, but it still manages to be more disturbing than, like, come on, you know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah. It's, again, completely unsettling. His name, by the way, they do have names. His name is Nubbins Sawyer, but he's kind of mainly known as the hitchhiker. And his very short ride is. Is just full of disturbing things. He looks like he's got, you know, blood on his face. He's kind of rambling incoherently. He takes out a. Or he. I'm sorry. He grabs Franklin's sort of whittling pocket knife at one point and cuts his own hand in front of everyone's faces, which is terrifying.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

And then slashes Franklin, I think, with his razor that he has in his boot.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And he's real squirrely, too. So he's moving around a lot. And he's, like, just doing all sorts of weird stuff. But once he slashes, like, they're really put off by this guy. But once he slashes Franklin, they don't even fully stop. They just slow down and basically push him out of the van.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And take off. So they go to the Hardesty homestead. Franklin tells them that there's a swimming hole nearby, and this couple, Pam and Kirk, go off to find it, but they find that it's dried up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And they're just kind of hanging out. And Kirk spies a house nearby, and he thinks, hey, maybe. Maybe they have some gas that we can get because the van's getting awfully low. And they don't know where another gas station is.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So they go to this house. Kirk stupidly enters the house. He's kind of knocking on the door and the door just, you know, opens from him knocking. And he's the first to be killed. And it happens in such a brutally fast way. When he goes down this straight hallway into this, you know, it looks like another hallway off the entryway where they have animal skins and skulls and things on the wall. And he gets clubbed by a hammer very quickly. And the speed at which that happens, the speed at which you see Leatherface for the first time, whose name is Bubba, by the way, and then the ferocity and speed that he slams shut that metal sliding door is just terrifying.

[Josh Clark]

It is, yeah. That's a hell of a way for the first person to get picked off to go.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's very fast and just all of a sudden you're already disturbed. Because everything before it was so. Even Franklin, like every word out of his mouth is annoying and upsetting.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, we should say Franklin. Among film appreciators and horror fans, he's almost universally despised.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, poor Franklin.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So, yeah, it is. Because I was, I went into it again thinking how much everybody hates Franklin. I was like, he's not that bad. He's pretty bad. But there's still, there's some redeeming qualities to him. But I don't want to just be contrarian, you know.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I'm with you.

[Josh Clark]

So Pam, who was with Kirk but is waiting outside on a swinging bench, starts deciding that Kirk's been gone too long and goes in after him. And she goes in, there's this classic shot.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

A dolly shot from the ground going upward and it follows her going up to the house. And it's just this amazing shot. Like anybody who knows anything about cinema is like, this is one of the best Dolly shots of all time. Again, a 23 year old did this. And the reason they did it is because the house just grows bigger and bigger, almost like it's going to swallow Pam up. And I would never think about that if I hadn't read someone describing it, but that's exactly what it does.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's very creepy. It starts, it goes under the swing, which is a nice little trick. Her backside is very prominently in frame. So I think at the time that was their version of selling something slightly sexy.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

But it's so foreboding. And you get that blue, blue sky and the clouds and that up angle shot of the house, like you said. And it's a great, great shot.

[Josh Clark]

It is. So Pam goes in there, and her fate is not met quite as quickly as Kirk. She stumbles into this room. Chicken room. Yeah. There's a live chicken in a bird cage meant for, basically, canaries. So the chicken's almost stuffed in there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

There's feathers everywhere. There's bones everywhere, carcasses hanging everywhere. The couches and the chairs are all basically upholstered with bones. And these weird, but kind of in a strange way, beautiful designs and a. You can just tell it's so nasty in there that she starts to gag and tries to get out. And as she's trying to get out, she meets Leatherface, and it just. It goes downhill from there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And this is equally as brutal. I mean, Leatherface is. I don't think we said is like six, four. And how much did he weigh?

[Josh Clark]

300 pounds.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Very large dude. Sort of looks like a professional wrestler, but he's wearing a skin mask with other hair. You know, that's not his.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Like a. Almost a curly wig that just. That makes it so much worse, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So everything he does is just, you know, brutal. I mean, clearly, as the movie goes on, we realize that he has, you know, some pretty severe cognitive issues. Like, I'm not gonna diagnose Bubba, Leatherface.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

But at any rate, he's terrifying. And the way he moves is just very sort of herky jerky. And the way he's so big and the way he grabs her and brings her into that room is just. It's all. Again, it's terrifying.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. One of the other things that's terrifying, that also gets across the fact that cognitively, he seems to be challenged, at least to some degree. They took away all of the dialogue that he had written for him in the script. So he doesn't do anything but make weird sounds.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he kind of babbles at one point later he does.

[Josh Clark]

And then also, if you pay attention, there's times where he's clearly talking, but they dub in a hog squealing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And it's not supposed to be him making a hog call. Like, it's just like, that's what came out of his mouth weirdly. And it happens so fast. And they don't make any kind of point to point it out that when you notice it, you're like, what the heck just happened? But it makes him, especially if you don't notice it, even creepier. I mean, the fact that he's wearing a mask made of a dead person's Face is bad enough, but all the extra little details they put into it, the apron that he's wearing, which clearly demonstrates he's a butcher with that chainsaw. All of the details they put together just make him one of the great horror film villains of all time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, yeah, and set the mold for the sort of non verbal mask wearing dudes to come, like Michael Myers and certainly Jason Voorhees for sure.

[Josh Clark]

So what happens to Pam?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Pam gets meat hooked immediately. She gets taken into this butcher room, impaled on a meat hook, but still living, and gets to watch. We finally see the chainsaw fire up here for the first time. We get to see her boyfriend, you know, get it, doesn't show it, and we'll talk about that later. But you see the, you know, Leatherface fire that thing up and kind of start to get to work on him.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So like you said, Pam's still alive and she's impaled on that meat hook just a few feet from where Kirk's body is on this table that Leatherface is now dismembering with the chainsaw. So as she's dying, she gets to watch that. And then I think it goes back to the, the homestead where Franklin and Sally and Jerry, who's Sally's boyfriend, are still hanging out. And Jerry decides to go look for them, drawn into the same trap that Kirk and Pam fell for by looking for them. And, and he gets picked off too. His, his death happened so quickly that I actually thought for a second that he was going to come back because I hadn't seen it in a while.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And then I realized, like, no, he just, he got taken out with one. One hammer swing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And that, that all makes it pretty scary too, because there's not this big tense buildup like a lot of modern horror. People are dispatched up just very kind of quickly and without regard, which makes.

[Josh Clark]

It seem like that's probably how it would be in that situation. It makes it more realistic, I think.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, totally.

[Josh Clark]

And by the way, I've seen Jerry referred to as Disco Stew across the Internet because he really does bear a resemblance to him for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

So before he gets dispatched, though, he does open the freezer in the butcher room and sees that Pam is in there and sort of barely alive and kind of comes up and that's right when he gets taken out for sure.

[Josh Clark]

So Jerry's gone, Kirk and Pam are gone. There's just Franklin and Sally left. And they wait until nightfall until they just can't not look for their friends anymore. So they go chomping through the woods, and this is where Hansel and Gretel really kind of becomes clear.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Sally's pushing Franklin in his wheelchair, basically overland. And as they're wandering kind of aimlessly through the woods, they come upon Leatherface, who just starts chopping Franklin up in his wheelchair. And Sally, realizing there's nothing she can do for her brother, takes off. And this kind of chase through the woods that leads back to. Leads her to the Sawyer house, which she's not familiar with. So she goes in there looking for help, realizes this is not the place to find help, has to jump out a second story window, goes back to running through the woods, and then makes it to that original gas station barbecue pit, thinking she's found safety. And it turns out that's not the case at all.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Because that's when it all comes together, that Drayton is in on it. He's one of the family members. He kidnaps her in a. This. Okay, this scene I could see is maybe being kind of funny. The broom attack when he's smacking her with the broom.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Especially if you. If you know the little behind the scenes trivia that Jim Sedow did not want to do, that he was basically forced to and goaded on to actually hit Marilyn Burns with the broomstick to make it look real. And if you know that the first few hits are kind of tentative and he's almost looking like, can I get away with this? And they clearly cut and then say like, dude, you need to actually hit her. And he does. And it's. I mean, I think the fact that he didn't want to do it and then had to do it, there had to be some sort of transformation in his character that. That you can't quite put your finger on there.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I guess I could see how that scene could come across as funny a little bit. But again, it's so terrifying. Cause the way she screams and the brutality of it all, despite the weird broom thing, like, I couldn't come back to a place of laughing. There's just no way.

[Josh Clark]

No. So I'm glad you mentioned her screaming because like you said, there's not a lot of dialogue in the second and third acts, but I can't imagine how many times they wrote Sally screams. Yeah, she screamed maybe more than any other horror film victim in history, but fortunately for us, her scream almost has, like a pleasing quality to it. And she has a huge range. It's not the same scream over and over again. There's one point where she's like, like it's like. It's just a bunch of different screams. And she screams a lot. So she was very rightly and still is called a scream queen. She's one of the scream queens. But she screams a lot in this movie. But it doesn't get annoying. It's not grating and it just makes the whole thing that much more terrifying.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I wouldn't say annoying, but I kept wanting it to stop because it's so relentless, you know?

[Josh Clark]

Sure it is. It is relentless, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's very upsetting. So she gets taken, you know, after the little broom fracas, she gets bagged and taken back to the house. And this is where, I mean, in a movie of disturbing scenes, maybe the most disturbing scene is the dinner scene.

[Josh Clark]

For sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

With the whole family, which is. We don't really learn this here. I think we just sort of learn later in other movies, the relations. But it's three brothers. It's Bubba, Nubbins and Drayton. And then Grandpa. What I wondered is about the parents. I guess that's explained maybe in prequels and stuff.

[Josh Clark]

I'm not sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I have no idea. Cause I haven't seen those. But there's a grandpa who it turns out was played by a 19 year old in a face mask. Also, the grandpa doesn't speak. And it's just this macabre dinner scene where it just shows how this family of cannibals is so like, they're all just so disturbed. It's just disgusting.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. At one point, Leatherface grabs Sally's finger and cuts it with a knife and then puts her finger in Grandpa's mouth so Grandpa can partake, drinking her blood. Right. And then so she's being tormented this whole time. This is a 10 minute long scene, at least, depending on when you say it starts where she's just being tormented and terrorized and mocked. Nubbins the hitchhiker is just mocking her like, please, please let me go. Which makes it so much worse. And then just the terror on her face. She. She sells it so well. But anyway, Grandpa there, who's essentially immobile and just a couple degrees away from catatonic. Yeah, they're like, Grandpa used to be the best at killing people. He could kill him with one hammer blow. Let's let him kill her. So they actually drag her over to like a metal tub, lean her over it, her head over it so that she doesn't get blood everywhere, and give Grandpa the hammer. But he's so aged and so just withered he can't hold the hammer, so he keeps dropping it out of his hand, and it lands, like, in the tub next to Sally's head over and over again, which. Oh, my God, dude, it's way scarier.

[Chuck Bryant]

Than if he had just hauled off and hit her with all of his strength.

[Josh Clark]

Wait, because it goes on for a minute or so, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's really disturbing.

[Josh Clark]

Finally, she gets away. She goes through another window. And then we reach the end of the movie.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Just real quick, we should mention that Leatherface has changed his attire for dinner and is wearing a dress and a new, I guess, woman's skin mask, because it's all made up with this heavy, like, you know, clown makeup almost. And that just makes it even more disturbing.

[Josh Clark]

Well, don't forget his lovely cravat, too, that he was wearing.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right.

[Josh Clark]

So Sally's getting away. She runs out of the house. It's now sunrise daylight, which is a good sign for Sally at this point. Also, the fact that she's the last person and she's still alive. You can start to think, like, maybe Sally's gonna get away, but she's running down the driveway, and Nubbins catches up with her. But unfortunately for Nubbins, he doesn't really take her escape seriously and continues to mock her while he's chasing her.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, he's slashing her back with that razor the whole time, too.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I didn't notice that. Is that what it is?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. That's why she ends up such a bloody mess. I mean, besides everything else that happened to her.

[Josh Clark]

Gotcha. But she makes it to the end of the driveway to the main road with Nubbins right at her heels. And they run out into the street just as a Mack truck, a tractor trailer, essentially, is barreling down the street and runs right over Nubbins.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So Nubbins is gone. Little bit of trivia. The name on the side of the truck is Black Maria. I looked up to see if there was any significance, and I didn't verify this, but there's no way it's a coincidence that Black Maria was the name of Thomas Edison's very first motion picture studio that he built?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, no way. That's a coincidence. But also, doesn't that go to show, like, what students of film these filmmakers were, that they knew that?

[Chuck Bryant]

Totally. Yeah. That had to be the case, though.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And that they made an homage to Thomas Edison's first movie studio?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's pretty great. All right, so back to the movie. Nubbins has been Run over. The truck driver obviously stops. Truck driver is played by Ed G U I N N I guess Gwen, but very close to Ed Gein. Oh, yeah, by coincidence, I'm sure. And the truck driver is one of the weird heroes of this movie. He has no lines. He's in it for a couple of minutes. Only African American character in here. And in a spin on that trope that they're the first ones to die, he's actually the only guy that inflicts any damage on this family at all. Cause he runs over a nubbin. And he gets a big pipe wrench when he's getting out of the truck and throws it at Leatherface, which causes Leatherface to fall down with the chainsaw. And the chainsaw cuts into his own.

[Josh Clark]

Thigh, which is probably the most brutal thing that they show in the entire movie. It's gross. You can see the fat in his leg come out, bubble out of the wound.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, God. Leg fat.

[Josh Clark]

So Sally is still running around in the middle of the road here. And luckily a pickup truck comes by and she manages to jump in the back. And now she's finally gotten away, but she's clearly lost her mind. The way that she's reacting to it sinking in that she's gotten away. And Leatherface is not happy about this. He's very frustrated. And he shows it by swinging the chainsaw around. Wildly terrifying, swirling. You can tell he's just so mad. And this is the only way that he can show it or get it out. And he's swinging and swinging against the sunrise. And then, like you said, it just cuts to black.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And that shot of her in the back of that truck with the blood all over her and her madly cackling. It's the perfect ending. And the abrupt ending. Like, it's so loud with that chainsaw. And then to cut. I can't imagine what it was like in a Theater in 1974 when it cuts to black and it's just dead silent. Like, what the hell did that audience do?

[Josh Clark]

Had I been there, it wouldn't have been dead silence. Because I would have been like, that is a great movie.

[Chuck Bryant]

Cheering I would have said this. What did I just watch?

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

By the way, pickup truck driver, played by Perry Lorenz, who I think now is an Austin real estate developer.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay, cool. He was also the stunt driver, I think, for the truck.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, you can barely see him, but gotta shout out, Perry Lorenz.

[Josh Clark]

So that's the movie. I mean, there's not that much more to it, honestly. It was very bare bones, which I think again makes it that much more believable. And we need to take a second break. I say we plug on and make this just one big fat episode. What do you think?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, we got to do it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, so we're going to take our second break and then we're going to come back and you'll find out the bulk of the show is still to come.

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[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so we're back. We know what happened in the movie. You know, hopefully if you came back and you didn't want it spoiled, this won't spoil too much of it.

[Josh Clark]

But, oh, yeah, we're done with the.

[Chuck Bryant]

Plot, but we need to talk about the making of the movie. The film was shot in just over. Well, right at a month, in 31 days, mid July to mid August, in what are now suburbs of Austin in Bastrop and Round Rock. But I imagine then they were a little more rural than they are now. There, you know, weren't strip malls and stuff everywhere.

[Josh Clark]

No, they look pretty rural.

[Chuck Bryant]

Pretty rural. A little bit around Austin itself. Obviously, the heat, the conditions were brutal. Like, you know, 100 degrees plus on the roads and in the streets and fields, and more than that, inside the Sawyer house with what little film lighting they had. And it was a brutal experience. They had a Ford van that drove around the gear, had an old camper, which is the hair and makeup trailer, and shot basically at about six places.

[Josh Clark]

Overall, I counted five. So I've got the rundown gas station barbecue pit, the abandoned house, which is the Hardesty homestead, the neglected cemetery, the dirt road, and then the Sawyer family house.

[Chuck Bryant]

Then you're in the van too, baby.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, wow, that's great, man. You just blew my mind.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So basically, 6ish places, which is a great way to write a cheap independent film as just a little tip.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and they were, again, they were on a shoestring. I suspect that the Ford van they used to carry the film equipment around was the same Ford van that the teenagers drive around in.

[Chuck Bryant]

I bet it was. That was my hunch.

[Josh Clark]

And they also apparently got some guff because the road scenes that they filmed, they did not get a permit for.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I'm surprised I got a permit for any of it.

[Josh Clark]

Right. So unfortunately for the Cast and crew, most of the filming was done in the Sawyer house. And again, like you said, 100 degrees outside, apparently in the house, for our friends, except in Liberia, who use the metric system, it's 37.8 degrees Celsius, which.

[Chuck Bryant]

Seems very cold to me.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And apparently it got 10 degrees more than that inside the house. And because this film was inspired in part by Ed Gein, the production designer, Bob Burns used photos that were taken like crime scene photos taken in Ed Gein's house as inspiration for the set decoration.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, Tobe Hooper himself said that the movie is about meat and it's a case for veganism. Apparently he became a vegan during filming. And you found out that Guillermo del Toro apparently became a vegan after seeing the movie as well. And I'm sure they're not the only ones.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And if you look out for that, all of the meat eating that's done in the movie is disgusting.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

The truck that runs over Nubbins is a cattle truck that is empty, which means it just is returning from having dropped off a bunch of cows at a slaughterhouse.

[Chuck Bryant]

They talk a lot about that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, yeah, they talk about a slaughterhouse nearby. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And also not to mention that there's that live chicken, tons of carcasses hanging everywhere. Lots of like sausages and stuff all over the house. Skins, bones, all that stuff. It just, it makes sense, like, because if there's one word it screams it's meat.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, well, Franklin's chewing on that. Looks like a raw sausage.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, it's pretty gross for a while.

[Chuck Bryant]

In that one scene where he's trying to get into his old grandparents house. And the implication here is that these, the Draytons are. This is, you know, human meat that they're grinding up into sausage. It's never explicitly said, but I think that's what you're supposed to believe.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. That that's what the barbecue that they're selling is made from too. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, that's what I mean. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, okay. So because Bob Burns is hanging actual meat around this house, and because it's 110 degrees in the house, the house started to smell wretchedly. So much so I saw from multiple sources that they would go outside between takes and throw up sometimes. At the very least, they had to get out to get some air because it got gamey in there. Terribly nasty just from the meat. But then you also throw in what the actors themselves must have smelled like because they had one set of clothing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And they had to wear it every day for the shoot. Because this action takes place over just one day.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. Usually when you shoot a movie, you have multiples of your clothes. So if something happens to them, obviously you can switch it out. Or if they get stinky, you can switch them out. On a modern movie, they probably have, like, eight versions of the chainsaw. They had one chainsaw, so on a budget, you just get one of everything. So they were very stinky. They had Bill Parsley, the, you know, one of the early financiers, stopping by almost every day, basically saying, like, when are you gonna wrap this picture? Threatening to shut it down. They shot, you know, 12 to 18 hours a day. One day they went for 26 hours inside that house. Obviously, they're blacking out the windows. Cause most of it takes place at night in that house, which is. You know, psychologically, that's upsetting to a cast and crew, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

Also, like, this experience of just being treated like this during filming. The cast itself, like, in real life, like, there was a lot of tension, a lot of squabbling and bickering and people just kind of being disgruntled. And that came through, I suspect, from other stuff I've read that Tobe Hooper was making that, like, really beefing that kind of tension up to get more just angst out of his actors.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, totally. Using that to his advantage, as every great manipulating director should.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. He also isolated Gunnar Hansen, who played Leatherface. I read that each of the actors who was dispatched by Leatherface met Gunar Hansen when they filmed their scene for the first time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So that they couldn't get comfortable with them and were. I mean, again, like you said, 6 foot 4, 300 pounds, just. And the chainsaw was a poulin. And apparently it's one of their heavier ones. And he's just swinging this around like it's nothing. So clearly he was an intimidating person in real life. And again, that was something Tobe Hooper did to manipulate things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And he stayed in character, too, which is also means he's walking around either babbling or not saying anything. I don't imagine they had a recording of a pig squeal that he could just kind of play for fun as he walked around. Yeah. But it wasn't a pleasant shoot.

[Josh Clark]

I also read that the guy who played Franklin, Paul Partain, stayed in character as well, and everyone hated him.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So there was also physical suffering, too. We talked about how Marilyn Burns was actually hit in the head with the broomstick just to make it More realistic looking. She did almost all of her own stunts from what I could tell. A woman named Mary Church was. The only stunt she did was actually jumping out of the windows. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Bad wig in that shot.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. But when Sally falls down, you know, whatever, she's running through mesquite and gets trapped in it. Running through cockleburs like that was actually Marilyn Burns, the actress, having to do that over and over.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And you get that sense too when she's freaking out in that long chase scene through the thicket. It's terrifying. And it looks like she's not enjoying things at all, you know. So it really comes across on film.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Cause she gets stuck and she's like. And has to pull herself out and. Yeah, I think she really did.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And then, you know, we mentioned in the plot, the scene again, this is a big spoiler. At one point, her finger is cut at the dinner scene and it's put into the mouth of grandpa to suckle her blood. Apparently the blood squib didn't work and they really cut her finger. And that 19 year old grandpa kid and the face mask really drank her blood.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, unknowingly, apparently. Until after.

[Chuck Bryant]

Good God.

[Josh Clark]

So one of the things that people point to is what made this movie so great was this. The inexperience of these novice filmmakers. Yeah, we said that Daniel Pearl, the cinematographer, was 23. Tobe Hooper apparently was the oldest at 29.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And they had like documentary backgrounds. Daniel Pearl was. He apparently caught Tobe Hooper's eye from a Texas Department of Public Safety psa. Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

It was like blood spills, red on the highway kind of thing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, basically. Except this is about a drug bust. And Tobe Hooper noticed like, wow, that was shot really interestingly. And who did that? That's how they came together. They made their own dollies out of wood. Their own crane out of wood too, I believe. And then the editing too. Gets a lot of credit for making the movie what it was.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, like we said, It's a trim 83 minutes. You can thank Larry Carroll and Sally Richardson as the editors for just, you know, like I kept mentioning, like the speed at which the kills happen and the abruptness in which they end and with the movie ends. Like those are all just great editing decisions to like, you know, it's tough. Cause you know, they call it like losing your babies. You don't want to lose stuff you shot or the great line. But a good editor knows like, no, tighter is better, shorter is better, and it helps Create a lot of the unsettling feeling, I think, by how quickly they cut away to stuff for sure.

[Josh Clark]

So they finally got it done. I think I said 300 grand is the highest I saw as an estimate for what the budget actually was. They got it down to 83 minutes. They had the final cut. They have investors breathing down their neck because remember, they initially got 80 grand, the budget ended up being 300 grand. So Tobe Hooper and Kim Henkel kept having to go back and find new people to give them money. And over time, a lot of different investors, including the cast and crew, owned that movie. They owned portions of it. And as true indie filmmakers, Kim Henkel and Tobe Hooper watered down their own share to get the money to get the movie completed. And they ended up just with a seven and a half percent cut each. These are the guys who thought of and made the movie. They ended up with 15% between them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, we'll see. It made a ton of money, but how those things pay out, it just, it never pays out like you think it would. Even though it was cheap to make and made a ton of money. The creative accounting and in this case sort of mob accounting because. Well, I guess we should say first it did get picked up that commissioner Warren Skarren that we were talking about, the film commissioner of Texas, shopped it around. There weren't a ton of movies being shot in Texas at the time. So it was sort of a. It was before Robert Rodriguez and Richard Linklater put Austin on the map. Toby Hooper was first. So it wasn't like a big film scene. So it took the film commissioner to really champion it for distribution. Almost got bought by Columbia. Eventually it was bought by the distribution company who put out Deep Throat, the famous porn. And their name was Brianston Distributing Company.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. And their whole business model was basically just generate as much publicity as you can. Negative publicity is just as good as positive. And then they would just promote the heck out of it, publicize all of this outrage and everything that the movie was getting. And the reason why is because they couldn't afford traditional marketing. As it worked out. It was basically a shell game house of cards. And like you said, it was a mobbed up movie distribution company.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So Brianston was owned by the Colombo crime family or members of that family, specifically big Tony Perreno. He also helped finance part of this film and other of their films. And yeah, I think they distributed Darkstar from John Carpenter, which is a sci fi cult classic. But because it was mob Connected. It was kind of one of those things where they knew that no one was gonna see the money they were probably owed. And I think some of them made a little bit of money, but the total pot, even though it made. Well, we'll talk about the grosses, but I think a little over a quarter of a million bucks or a little under a quarter of a million bucks to dole out to everybody.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And the cast and crew was left with $8,100 to split between them. So.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, it's not terrible.

[Josh Clark]

No, it's not great either. I mean, divide that by about 20.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I don't think those extras got much, if anything.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. Still so divided by 10. Because the crew was involved, too. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm not saying they got paid a lot, but. But in today dollars, if that cast walked away with, like, five grand, then, I mean, that's not terrible for an indie movie.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. The investors sued Bryanston, and there was a judge who ruled, like, yeah, you need to give them more money than that. And Brianson said, we would if we could, but we're bankrupt now, so see you guys later. Finally, New Line picked it up in 1983, and some real money started to flow in, but still not much trickled down to the people who actually made the movie.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. One of the most startling facts of this whole podcast to me is that Tobe Hooper was trying for a PG rating. Yeah, it was pre PG 13. The board, the MPAA basically said that meat hook scene, like, you. You can't have that in your movie at all and get a pg, get a PG rating. Because he was like, how could I cut that scene in a way that gets it a pg? And they're like, they're incompatible, my friend.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And he responded with, yeah, come on.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he got an X rating instead.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, he did. He managed to lobby it down to an R. Because this is the time when you got an X rating. Like, you can kiss any success for your movie goodbye. Unless, of course, Bryanston owns it. Because we should say being distributed by Bryanston wasn't a total, like, scam or a bust. They actually did do some good stuff. Like we said. They generated some really negative publicity and then publicized that they also managed to get this film the year it came out into the Museum of Modern Art's permanent collection. You can believe they publicized that. They also got it shown at Cannes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Which is. I mean, we could say, like, that's actually some. A couple of good things that they did for sure, for the movie. Which certainly remember this when it came out. It's going to be a drive in B movie slasher film before anyone knew what a slasher film really was. And then it would probably be gone in a month or two at best. And these things started to help make it like, okay, maybe we should pay a little more attention to this. Because at first the critics panned it and then they started to see like, okay, actually there's some really good cinematic stuff in here that we're overlooking.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, it grossed more than the Great Gatsby that year, Chinatown Death Wish. It took in that year's dollars, about 26 million bucks and change eventually went on to gross $150 million in present day dollars. So it was a, at one point it was known as the most successful independent film of all time, money wise.

[Josh Clark]

Right. I think Rocky knocked it out a couple years later, from what I understand. But it was definitely huge.

[Chuck Bryant]

Rocky knocked it out. You sure it wasn't that tko?

[Josh Clark]

Wow. I didn't even mean to do that. The spirit of Jonathan Strickland just flowed through me.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. But yeah, you mentioned the critics. They kind of got on board a little bit. Like Rex Reed said it was, you know, the most terrifying, like me film he'd ever seen. Ebert said it was some kind of weird off the wall achievement. I can't imagine why anyone would want to make a movie like this. And yet it's well made, well acted and all too effective.

[Josh Clark]

Right. But they still ultimately said they panned it. Right. Although I don't think Rex Reed did. I think he might have given it a thumbs up, however he did that. But they would invariably say that it was blood soaked, that it was gory, and those. That's just not true. Because if you watch the movie, there is very little blood, very little gore, and a lot of the violence is just implied. It's not actually shown. Certainly you don't see the meat hook go into Pam.

[Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

But you see her dangling from a meat hook and that confused people at first. So people walked away thinking they just seen a ton of gore and blood and they hadn't.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. The hammer blows are kind of shot from far away and very fast. And you don't see blood spatter everywhere. There's just an overall, like the MPA should just say, hey, man, I don't care if we don't see one drop of blood. This gets an X for disturbing factor.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, I could see that too. And it's A credit to Toby Hooper that he managed to get it reduced to an R. But, yeah, you can imagine his disappointment making the film based on the idea that he was making it a PG movie. I mean, that's just as naive as it gets, really, for a filmmaker.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And it really, you know, like I said in our Act One, that really set a standard for films to come. Slasher films. Teenagers kind of driving through the woods and coming upon an abandoned, seemingly abandoned place. This was the first movie to do that stuff. Really? Like horror movies before this, a lot of them were the Hammer movies, like the gothic vampire in a castle kind of stuff. The final girl trope was either birthed with this or which one? Black Christmas.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Those two usually are the rivals for the first one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And the final girl is obviously the trope where there's one girl left alive at the end, you know, the last. Either victim or one who survives. And those movies were both released in the same year and clearly didn't know about one another. So I give them the co lead.

[Josh Clark]

And like I said, over time, people started to. Especially film appreciators started to see this as like, a cinematic treasure, a masterpiece. Quentin Tarantino apparently listed it among six perfect movies among the likes of Jaws, Exorcist, Young Frankenstein, and Back to the Future and Annie Hall. Like people, apparently Stanley Kubrick owned a 35 millimeter print of it himself. That's kind of all you need to say right there. Yeah, but maybe in spite of that or because of that or whatever, everyone agrees that you could never remake the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and capture the spirit of the original because of the way that it was hamstrung, all the different ways it was hamstrung. And. And the inexperience and naivety of the filmmakers, which also freed them up to take chances that an experienced filmmaker wouldn't take. Like dubbing in a hog squeal instead of a voice for Leatherface. At some point, you put all that together, you just can't recapture that.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, you can't. Sometimes there's just a way you shoot a movie. You capture lightning in a bottle. I read the Dazed and Confused Oral History recently. That's a great book. That was sort of a similar movie. Like, that's why that was maybe the best movie about teenagers in high school of all time, because of the way they did it and the inexperience and, like, you don't know what you don't know. And this movie is very much the same thing. Like, they've tried There've been countless sequels and remakes. I think there would have been like nine or 10 of them now, if.

[Josh Clark]

You want to count them. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, you know, none of them hold a candle to this. Most of them are not very good. For my money. The thing that comes closest is Rob Zombie's House of 1000 Corpses in Spirit, which was. You know, this was a very big influence on that movie, obviously, but I don't think anything. And again, I haven't seen these, but I've seen enough of them and read enough about them where it seems like none of them come close.

[Josh Clark]

I also see Wolf Creek and X as given high marks for being inspired by the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and managing to do something worthwhile, too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wolf Creek is great. I don't think I know X. X?

[Josh Clark]

It's part of the Maxine trilogy. X, Pearl and Maxine, the first one.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I saw those. Okay. I forgot it was called X. Yeah, those are all good, too.

[Josh Clark]

I've only seen X. Are the other two worth watching, too?

[Chuck Bryant]

I think so.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. And then, so I think John Landis put it how impossible it would be to remake or capture that same spirit from the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre when he described the remake in 2003 like a shampoo commercial. Kid City Cross.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's a pretty sick burn.

[Josh Clark]

Wow. You got anything else?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got nothing else. I try to watch this every Halloween. I don't know why it took me so long to see it, because I had gotten into horror movies in the past, like, 20 years, more and more. It was just kind of hanging out there until a few years ago, and I was like, wait a minute. I've never seen the granddaddy of them all.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and when you watched it, you said, wow, this is a great movie.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, no, you know what I said?

[Josh Clark]

We gotta watch it together. I want to just watch you watch it.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, we'll do it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. Well, since Chuck agreed to let me watch him while he watches the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, as it was predicted in 2008 by Chuck Struck Thomas himself, I just triggered listener mail.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is from taquarius. Hey, guys. 19 years ago, when I was just 13, I was allowed to visit our local skating rink along with my uncle. It was an experience that stood out for my previous visits because that night was full of black culture. It left a lasting impact on me, and I would often jokingly think to myself, it must have been Black Knight or something. After listening to your roller skating episode, I was astonished to learn that such events were actually a thing after the civil rights movement. I'm uncertain whether that night was a tradition that dated back to that time, but I like to think that it was and that I was a part of the experience. Thank you for helping me, a black man, make connections that I was completely unaware of. And he attached a photograph from that night that he took with his uncle and his friends that was pretty sweet. In a time capsule. And he, he said, have a great day, guys. And that is from Taquarius McMurray.

[Josh Clark]

Nice. Thanks. Taquarius. That's a great one. I love that episode in part for that because I had no idea about that either.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, same.

[Josh Clark]

That's awesome. If you have recently listened to an old episode and want to tell us what you think about it, like Taquarius, we love that kind of stuff. You can send it off to stuff podcastheartradio.com.

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Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

[Chuck Bryant]

You listen to your favorite shows.

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Jenna World, Jenna Jameson, Vivid Video and the Valley is a new podcast about the history of the adult film industry.

[Josh Clark]

I'm Molly Lambert, and I'll be your.

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Tour guide on a wild trip through adult films. We get paid more than the men. We call the shots.

[Chuck Bryant]

In what way is that degrading? That's us taking hold of our life.

[iHeart Radio Announcer]

Listen to Gentle world on the iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[iHeart Radio Announcer]

You know the shade is always shadiest right here. Season six of the podcast Reasonably Shady with Gisele Bryant and Robyn Dixon is here dropping every Monday as two of the founding members of the Real Housewives Potomac. We're giving you all the laughs, drama, and reality news you can handle.

[Josh Clark]

And you know, we don't hold back.

[Chuck Bryant]

So come be reasonable or shady with.

[iHeart Radio Announcer]

Us each and every Monday, listen to Reasonably Shady from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sa mi gente, it's Ana Ortiz, and.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm Mark and Delicato. You might know us as Hilda and Justin from Ugly Betty.

[Josh Clark]

Welcome to our new podcast, Viva Betty. Yay. We're rewatching the series from start to.

[Chuck Bryant]

Finish and talking to iconic guests like Betty herself, America Ferreira.

[Josh Clark]

There was this moment when the glasses went on and it was like, this is our Betty.

[Chuck Bryant]

Listen to Viva Betty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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This is an iHeart podcast.