UNESCO World Heritage: Preserving the Best of Humanity

Summary

Stuff You Should Know

Episode: UNESCO World Heritage: Preserving the Best of Humanity

Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Date: April 23, 2026
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the fascinating world of UNESCO World Heritage—how humanity’s most significant sites and cultural practices are identified, protected, and sometimes lost. Josh and Chuck explore the origins, mechanics, politics, and peculiarities of the UNESCO system with their trademark curiosity and humor, offering concept clarity, real-world examples, and memorable anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is UNESCO and the World Heritage Program?

• UNESCO: Stands for United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, founded in 1945.
• World Heritage Convention (1972): Established the framework for identifying and preserving sites and traditions of "outstanding universal value" (04:07).
  • Notable Quote:
    "It's things that have outstanding universal value."
    — Chuck Bryant [04:07]
• Preservation isn’t about relinquishing sovereignty: sites remain the property of their country, but all of humanity shares a stake in their protection.
  • "It's yours. But... we're all agreeing that this belongs to humanity because it's so important to human culture, so unique that we need to preserve it."
    — Josh Clark [02:46]

2. Origins and Early Examples

• The conversation was sparked by Mongolia’s failed attempt to secure World Heritage status for its contortionist tradition (02:46).
• Post-WWII destruction inspired the need for coordinated global protection (05:23).
• Pivotal moment: In 1959, international cooperation saved Egyptian monuments (06:30).
  • Multiple countries contributed $80 million to move temples endangered by the Aswan Dam project.

3. How Does the System Work?

• World Heritage Committee: 21 member countries, elected for six years, oversee decisions [09:04].
  • U.S. has been on and off as a member due to political shifts.
• Host Responsibilities: Countries must report annually on the state of their sites and get modest funding (~$4 million per year/site) [09:51].
• Types of Heritage:
  • Natural Sites: Valued for science/aesthetics—e.g., Serengeti, Great Barrier Reef, Yellowstone [11:57].
  • Cultural Sites: Human-made, from the Statue of Liberty to Venice and ancient crossroads [13:20].

4. Intangible Heritage

• In 2003, UNESCO began safeguarding traditions, crafts, and practices—not just physical sites [21:34].
  • "Skill set or a knowledge or just some irreplaceable custom or traditional craft or skill... could be in danger of being lost."
    — Chuck Bryant [21:34]
  • Examples range from Bulgarian bagpipe making to yodeling in Switzerland, Turkish coffee, French baguettes, and Finnish sauna culture [24:34].
  • Criteria: Must be practiced and passed through current living communities; lost arts do not qualify.

5. World Heritage in Danger & Delisting

• Danger List: Before delisting, sites threatened by war, development, neglect, climate change are flagged [25:26].
  • Example: Parks in the DRC, Bamiyan Valley in Afghanistan (after destruction by the Taliban), Everglades in Florida, Odessa in Ukraine, ancient Aleppo [27:21–29:14].
• Delisting is rare but final. Reasons: irreparable loss or transformation (e.g., Liverpool’s historic docks destroyed for a stadium, Arabian oryx sanctuary eliminated by poaching) [29:14, 30:23].
• Countries are incentivized to act to avoid the dishonor of delisting [31:13].

6. The Role of Politics and Economics

• Political maneuvering and lobbying are increasingly tied to gaining lucrative tourism and national prestige [35:35].
  • "It's entirely about political and economic gain at this point. Just a tool in a much larger arsenal of nation-state politics."
    — Quoting Lynn Meskell, Stanford [36:43]
• Countries form voting blocs, make deals, and can even manipulate the system by leaving UNESCO but still nominating sites [38:30].

7. Controversies and Critiques

• Local Communities vs. Global Priorities: Modern limits on indigenous participation can sideline those most closely connected to a site [38:00].
• Repatriation parallel: The mentality of ‘we know better with your stuff’ can prevent cultural justice [38:00].
• National sovereignty vs. international cooperation: Sometimes, site management clashes—e.g., Turkey re-converting Hagia Sophia from a museum into a mosque against UNESCO wishes [43:23].
  • "UNESCO's like, we didn't talk about this. And Erdogan said, it doesn't matter. We're doing that."
    — Josh Clark [43:23]
• UNESCO’s enforcement limitations: There's little they can do if countries don't comply [44:04].

8. Memorable and Quirky Intangible Heritages

• Horseback shrimp fishing in Belgium (only 12 families do it), Ceviche preparation in Peru, day of the dead celebrations in Mexico, annual grass mowing competitions in Bosnia, and more [25:22, 45:08–45:33].
• Charming banter about “shrimp people,” Hemingway cats, and vacation tips (e.g., Venice and its famed Harry’s Bar) [15:03–16:14].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We're all watching you as you juggle your way through the room. You want to leave it in mint condition."
  — Chuck Bryant [04:01]
• "I think that in practice, lately, it's in trouble... the idea that it was of outstanding universal value... in practice, that is not always the case."
  — Josh Clark [04:34]
• "You can remember all the stuff, but you can't ignore the dark stuff."
  — Josh Clark [17:59]
• "Sometimes, just being built around [a site] can change the built environment enough that UNESCO's like, it's done."
  — Josh Clark [29:56]
• "I feel like I take the Burger King approach to tourism, where I was like, I'll have it my way."
  — Josh Clark [46:14]
• "This is something I knew nothing about, and now I feel like I know enough. Which is our charge as a show."
  — Chuck Bryant [46:25]

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:43 | Introduction to UNESCO World Heritage concept | | 06:30 | Aswan Dam episode: first big international heritage saving effort | | 09:04 | Structure of World Heritage Committee, U.S. involvement | | 11:31 | Value of inscription: Tourism and perception as “wonders of the world” | | 11:57 | Natural vs. Cultural Sites: explanations and examples | | 16:18 | Breakdown of global distribution of World Heritage Sites | | 17:49 | Sites that commemorate dark chapters in history | | 21:34 | Expansion to intangible heritage: traditions, rituals, crafts | | 25:26 | “Danger List”: threats & what happens when sites are in peril | | 29:14 | Delisting: what happens when sites are lost or irreparably changed | | 35:35 | Economic and political motivations in heritage inscription | | 43:23 | The Hagia Sophia controversy: National sovereignty versus UNESCO oversight | | 45:08–45:33| Fun examples of intangible heritage (midwifery, ceviche, etc.) |

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Additional Insights

• Global Imbalance: Europe and North America host 46% of all sites, with Africa having a large proportion of natural sites, but relatively few overall [16:18].
• Tourism/Politics Paradox: Listing sites brings money but can also pose its own preservation threats via over-visitations [11:11].
• Community Engagement: Maintaining a site’s place on the list (or regaining status) requires action and investment by the host country [31:13, 41:20].
• Changing Definitions: The sorts of things considered "heritage" have broadened enormously—everything from food prep (ceviche) to yodeling, from rivers to rituals.

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Recurring Tone:

Friendly, wry, digressive, and fact-packed. Josh and Chuck balance admiration for the ideals of UNESCO World Heritage with gentle skepticism about real-world implementation.

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Takeaway

The world’s heritage—both tangible and intangible—is everyone’s business, but whose responsibility is it to save and keep it? Josh and Chuck show that while protecting humanity’s wonders (natural and cultural, old and modern) is noble, the process is deeply complex, full of political and practical pitfalls, and not without occasional absurdity and controversy.

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For Further Exploration

• Check out UNESCO’s website for virtual tours and comprehensive lists
• Examine the full lists of endangered and delisted World Heritage Sites
• Research local sites in your own country or region

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“Just because it's interesting, you know.”
— Josh Clark, summarizing perfectly the spirit behind preserving the best of humanity.

Transcript

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And this is Stuff you should Know. And this is a fairly rare edition where we do an episode that we decided to do within the last few episodes. We don't usually turn around that fast. Usually it's like seven. Seven to eight years.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, this is a quick one. And Julia turned this around for us. Pretty staty. I just made that up.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. But I get it.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think everyone knows what we mean. But we're talking about UNESCO World Heritage sites. UNESCO standing for which I never knew. I'm glad I know this now. The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural organization, whom in 1972 drafted this treaty to preserve world heritage as a whole. You know, whether it's as we'll see, like a place or a thing. And they even expanded later into like, you know, cultural processes and customs and traditions.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and that's where this idea came from. We were doing our episode on Contortionism and we found that Mongolia was turned down for getting right. World Heritage protection for their contortionist history. But they were like, what the H. So we started looking into this, and it is pretty interesting. One of the things that apparently is a fairly common misunderstanding is that if you have, like, a heritage site, like something is identified and labeled a World Heritage Site, that that is no longer sovereign territory in your country could not be wronger. That still belongs to you. But what's happened is that the world, essentially everybody who's a member of UNESCO has agreed to say, like, we want to preserve this in your country. It's yours. But it really. We're all agreeing that this belongs to humanity because it's so important to human culture, so unique that we need to preserve it. And it takes more than just one country to preserve things like this. So we're all going to get together and take shared responsibility for this important part of human culture.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And also a little bit of protection. Like, you know, you've got something valuable on your shelf there. We're all watching you.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

As you juggle your way through the room.

[Josh Clark]

You want to leave it in mint condition.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. There's one quote here that I think kind of nails it is. It's things that have outstanding universal value. So it's the universality of it all, as far as, you know, needing to cherish and care for these things. And I think it's kind of a. Kind of a cool deal. I mean, some people might criticize it as a big sort of political thing to get tourist dollars headed your way, but I'm not so cynical. I think it's actually pretty great.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I do, too. I think it's good, too. I think it's both, though. I think the ideal of it is awesome. I think that in practice, lately, it's in trouble. The thing is the idea that it was of outstanding universal value. I get that, again, as an ideal, but in practice, that is not always the case. And I draw your attention to the US Dunkerque, which is horseback shrimp fishing in Belgium. And if that sounds obscure to you, you're right, because only 12 families practice this still. That is a protected, intangible heritage that is not of universal value. Although it is super interesting and I'm glad it's protected, because why not? But I just thought that that was. There's a lot of different things that contradict the idea that it's of universal value.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. This all got started Post World War II, after the World Got together and decided to wreck everything again for the second time in about 30 years. And everyone kind of looked up and were like, geez, you know, we lost a lot of museums and churches and monuments and entire cities. Sometimes or huge portions of cities are just gone. And maybe we need as a world nation to get together and sort of start caring for these things a little bit more. So the UN kind of led the brigade on this. And UNESCO was formed in 1945. I think I said that 1972 was when the World Heritage Treaty or whatever came about. So UNESCO was around quite a while before this came around. So starting in 1945 is when UNESCO was formed, and they basically started a campaign to start protecting these places from a few things. It's not always just like war, that is definitely one of them. But also human development and natural disaster.

[Josh Clark]

Right, for sure. The first thing, I think they were really kind of focused on learning from, like, archeology was a big thing they were into for a while. But it really started to take the shape that we understand it today in 1959 when Egypt went to UNESCO and said, hey man, like, we want to build this dam. It's really important that we have a reservoir of water. But when we build the dam, there's a lot of like, really old, like Egyptian, pharaonic, Arab dynastic monuments that are going to be underwater. So can you help us figure this out? And UNESCO said, this is it. We've been waiting for this for 14 years. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

They said, we need to raise some money. So they got about $80 million together and said, all right, let's move these two temples specifically to higher ground. So they moved, they moved, disassembled these temples, moved them about 650ft, which was higher and out of harm's way. And that sort of like you said, that just sort of started this idea of like, wait a minute, we can get together and make great things happen and protect great places. And that kind of continued through the 60s until 1972 on November 16th, at their 17th General Conference, when they adopted the Convention concerning the Protection of World Cultural and Natural Heritage, which culminated the center of all that is basically this World Heritage List.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And there was one other aspect of that 1959 Aswan Dam Initiative. I guess dozens of countries, like, donated to make this happen. Like, this was $80 million in $1959. This is a significant amount of money. Egypt was really the only country that was going to benefit from this. But countries around the world said, no, we want to help take responsibility for this, because we think that these are that important, they transcend just Egyptian importance.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And that leads to the second part of that. What happened in 1972, there was the Heritage List and the Heritage Fund and that fund. You know, without money, none of this really matters that much. You know, it takes a lot of dough sometimes to do things like this.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. Because like you said, a lot of it's threatened. And one of the big things is preservation, protection and restoration. So that World Heritage Convention from 72, it created the World Heritage List. And now here, finally, we have reached like the actual modern incarnation of what UNESCO's largely involved in, or at least known for.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. As far as the nuts and bolts of it all goes, there is the World Heritage committee, which is 21 member countries at this point that are elected for six year terms. And they're the ones that are sort of in charge of overseeing all this. The United States has been a member country before and not been a member country. Depending on which politician is in the White House, you can probably figure that one out.

[Josh Clark]

Well, no, not surprising. There's some surprising dates in there, if you ask me.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but we're not in there now, I think. When did we drop off? 2011. Yeah, but we were back on then back off again in like 21, right?

[Josh Clark]

2018.

[Chuck Bryant]

Was it 2018? Okay. I can't get my years straight.

[Josh Clark]

That's because of COVID

[Chuck Bryant]

So, you know, if you are, they call it hosting. But if you have a World Heritage Site in your country, you have to, you can't just say, give us all the money and don't worry about it after that. You have to provide annual reports, you have to deliver reports on how the property is, the state of the property, any concerns like moving forward, basically kind of how things are going. And if you are a member country, you get the whopping sum of $4 million a year from the World Heritage Fund. And that is, I mean, some of that is preservation, but I get the feeling a lot of that is just sort of functioning and identifying places and promoting your own World Heritage Sites.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, probably paying for docents is a chunk of that too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, probably so.

[Josh Clark]

But also, if something happens, acute disaster from human or natural causes, you'll get some emergency assistance. And then this is another big one that I think probably really comes in handy. There are experts who work at UNESCO who can train your staff. Right. You don't have to figure, you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time. Be like, this is an archaeological site. Let's figure out how to train you, the staff, to preserve it and explain it and all that stuff. You can send them off to, I guess, New York and have them trained up to do those things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And tourism, it's a big deal if you get one of your, if you are a country, when you have a site that you get put on this list, it's a big deal because people, I think, that don't know a ton about this kind of look at it as like seven Wonders of the World list in some ways. And like, oh, here's a place, like we gotta visit before we die.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, there's hundreds of wonders of the world as far as the World Heritage List is concerned.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So originally, Chuck, there were just like physical places and features that were on the World Heritage List called sites. And they were divided essentially into two categories, cultural or natural. And you can kind of generally guess what the criteria was for each.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, like if it's a Natural Heritage Site, that means there's just universal value, maybe scientifically or maybe even just aesthetically. You know, we're talking about the Great Barrier Reef of Australia or Serengeti national park in Tanzania, stuff like that. And it's, you know, it's about protecting these natural wonders of the world generally.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And I mean, we just take for granted that the Serengeti national park is like, amazing. But the reason why specifically it was chosen is because it's one of the best examples of large predator prey interactions. Like, you just do not see lions chasing down antelope in Kansas. You don't see it unless the zoo's gone crazy. And that's one reason why it's protected. It's basically the main reason why it's protected. But then there's also an intersecting thing too, that it's also gorgeous. So this fulfills a couple of things. It's biologically important to science, but it's also aesthetically amazing too.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And this goes, you know, every single one of these things. We're not just going to go through and list a ton of different places. But if you're talking about the Yellowstone national park or the Galapagos Islands or like I mentioned, the Great Barrier Reef, these all seem like pretty obvious inclusions, for sure.

[Josh Clark]

And they were probably included pretty early on in the list's existence.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, geez.

[Josh Clark]

So that's the natural site, there's also the cultural site. And these are essentially, you know, human made environments or structures or places of human occupation where humans did something impressive. Important or it was just part of a larger culture. For example, there's a crossroads and I think, oh, I don't remember where it was, but it was just a crossroads back in the third century ce and it was just really important at the time. It doesn't seem all that important now, but it was. And you want to preserve it because future generations can learn from it and experience it and appreciate it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And it, you know, it can also be a building or a sculpture. Like the Statue of Liberty is on there under cultural heritage. Under that. But so is like Venice, Italy. So it can be a whole city that's sort of an ancient modern. Well, not maybe not ancient, but a modern wonder, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And then it can be ancient too. And then also like how the aesthetics and scientific importance intersect in the Serengeti National Park. That can happen in cultural sites too. Like it can be where archaeology intersects with, you know, humans. Like making, shaping the natural environment. Like the Cahokia mounds are on the list. Yeah. To where like all these different boxes can be checked. And those are. They call the, the money sites where there's just a bunch of different criteria going on.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And when I said not ancient, I meant Venice specifically.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I see, I see. Have you been to Venice?

[Chuck Bryant]

I've never been there. It's on a big time on the list. But I also just realized, I don't know when all that was engineered.

[Josh Clark]

I wanted to say like the 16th century. But it could be like is that ancient? That's not ancient. Ancient, ish.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I don't even know what ancient means now that I think about it.

[Josh Clark]

But it's. You're going to love it. You will love Venice. And when you do go there, go to Harry's bar. It's where the Bellini was invented.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. Love the Bellini.

[Josh Clark]

They save Hemingway seat like at the bar. It's preserved. But their martinis are really, really good. They're outrageously expensive. Just because they know that you'll pay it because you're a tourist. But it's still worth getting.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, maybe I can grow the beard back out and put some weight back on and convince everyone I'm the ghost of Hemingway and take that seat finally.

[Josh Clark]

Well bring a multi extra toed cat with you or are they cross eyed? What is it about those cats? Two toes?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I don't know. Are they, are they polydactyl?

[Josh Clark]

I think so. There's some, there's some unique feature that the Hemingway cats on Key west all share. And I want to say it's an extra toe. I'm not sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, moving on. We'll figure that out.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

There are total. A total of 1248 World Heritage Sites right now. The vast amount of those are cultural. I think 78%, 19% are natural, and 3% are mixed. And Europe and North America have almost half of them. They have 46% compared to Latin and the Caribbean. Latin American Caribbean at 12%, Asia and the Pacific, 25%, the Arab states, 8%, and Africa, 9%. Although we should say Africa holds 20% of all the natural sites, which is pretty impressive and not surprising.

[Josh Clark]

That is cool. I say we take a break. But first, I also wanted to point out that not all of these are, you know, just like, up with humanity. Like, they also preserve some pretty dark stuff, too. One good example is the Navy School of Mechanics in Argentina, which has turned into a site of memory, a museum, where they basically preserved the fact that this was a place where people were abducted, tortured, and murdered by dictatorships in Latin America in the 1970s and 80s. And this is a World Heritage Site because it's important to remember people will do this. Like, people will vote people like this into office and keep them there, and those people can turn on their own people, and you can be abducted and disappeared and murdered by the state that happens. That, to me, is like, one of the big driving. I guess it drives home the point of the World Heritage List more than some of these others.

[Chuck Bryant]

To remember not just pretty things.

[Josh Clark]

Right. But you don't have to just remember the dark stuff. You can remember all the stuff, but you can't ignore the dark stuff, I guess, is what I mean.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well said. Just like Lord Vader himself.

[Josh Clark]

What do you say? Like, come on over, baby. The dark side's feeling great.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think so. That was the line. Should we take that break?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I think we should.

[Chuck Bryant]

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[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so we mentioned early, we're back, by the way, that UNESCO would eventually adopt stuff like oral traditions and performing arts and social rituals and practices and things like that. That happened in 2003 specifically. And, you know, this was a very valuable ad, I think, like a skill set or a knowledge or just some irreplaceable custom or traditional craft or skill or something that, you know, could be in danger of being lost, you know, if not for stuff like this.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And again, it can be 12 families Shrimp fishing on horseback in Belgium.

[Chuck Bryant]

I want to see that. What does that look like?

[Josh Clark]

It looks like somebody with a horse and a shrimp net on a beach. I saw a picture of it.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mean, I kind of figured that. But, you know, I bet the shrimp are good.

[Josh Clark]

But I think this is. It's worth preserving too, because this is important to, like, these people. It's not saying like, oh, this is what America thinks is cool, or this is what, you know, Zimbabwe thinks is cool. Like, this is important to this culture. There's a culture on planet Earth and this is important to them and we should preserve it just for that very reason. Plus, also, really, what is supporting horseback shrimp fishing among 12 families in Belgium really costing the world to support, you know?

[Chuck Bryant]

Agreed. One part about being included on this part of the list is that. And I think this is kind of cool is it can be inherited from the past, but it also is applied to a contemporary setting. And so that means, you know, it can't be the lost art of whatever. If it's like, truly, really, no one is even doing this at all anymore. Like, you can be delisted. And we're to talk about that in a minute. Not delisted as in D, but D E Dash.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, you know that site?

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, no. Wasn't that a TV show?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I don't know. But there's a really mean, like Burn Blog or there used to be called Delisted. That was hilarious, but also really cruel.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I was never on that. But if you are included, that means this practice or this ritual or custom is passed through generations and communities and very community based overall. Like it's recognized within that community and outside that community as something of value. Kind of like the shrimp people. Shrimp people.

[Josh Clark]

Just because it's interesting, you know. Yeah, let's talk about. We dug up some other ones. You want to just kind of throw a few of these out. I found Basically all these interesting. But we should probably just pick some.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I'll go with the bagpipes. Bulgarian bagpipe making and bagpipe playing. Apparently it's a very big thing in Bulgaria, passed down through the families for generations. And it used to be like a father to son thing. Now they will teach all genders, which is kind of great. And, you know, it's in social clubs, they teach it in schools and they're like, we need to protect this. And it is on that list.

[Josh Clark]

It's also there's some very famous ones too, that it's not just as obscure as horseback shrimp fishing. Artisanal baguette making in France is protected. Turkish coffee is protected. Sauna culture in Finland's protected.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Baby gingerbread crafting in Croatia. And then it does get a little more niche. Loincloth weaving and Cote d' Ivoire human tower creation, they're called castles in Spain, where people just stack up on other people. And then there's also an annual grass mowing competition in Bosnia Herzegovina. And it is using a scythe. They're not just like riding John Deere tractors or anything like that. And it's. It's exactly what it sounds like. It's a grass mowing competition that's protected also. So is yodeling in Switzerland.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Great list.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you. So, Chuck, I don't know if you said there's a danger list. Did you mention that? I don't think we have yet.

[Chuck Bryant]

No. I talked about being delisted. But before you're delisted, you can be in danger.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And you can be in danger from. We did kind of talk about you can be in danger from armed conflict, war, from climate change, from all like just a complete change of the surrounding area can, can get you delisted. And danger is where. This is the step before delisting. And essentially UNESCO steps in and says, hey, we need to do something about this because this site is deteriorating. Or, or we need to figure out how to lift the statue of liberty 100ft so that sea level rise doesn't, you know, wash it away. And there's two kinds. There's ascertained danger, which is like, this is going to happen and then there's potential danger, like, say, stuff coming from climate change. Or if it's, you know, a civil. Civil conflict is starting to heat up and it looks like a civil war is going to break out and there's a heritage site right in the crossfire.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And one good example of something they might do is they are These national parks, and I guess they're all national parks in the Democratic Republic of Congo. That was. They were all made the danger list between 94 and 97. So they kind of put up the warning flag and UNESCO came in with their fat bank account. There were some NGOs involved that wanted to get involved and donate some money. And they had a four year rehabilitation campaign for these parks and then a second campaign. And this kind of goes to show how the international community comes together. These are all in the Democratic Republic of Congo. But in 2004, the second campaign got funded from Belgium and Japan. They were like, let's take care of these places.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. There's another site, the remains of Bamiyan Valley in Afghanistan is what it's called. It went from not on any World Heritage list immediately to the danger list. The Taliban back in 2001 blew up these two, I think 10 and 15 story tall cliff carved, I guess, statues or reliefs of Buddha from the 6th century. They were beautiful. And the Taliban blew them up by shooting them with shoulder launched rocket launchers that were probably provided by the CIA back in the 80s when they were fighting the Russians. And this was an enormous thing. Like people were like, what are you doing? Like, what, what is the problem here? Is this part of this kind of ethnic cleansing campaign against the Hazara people who live in the area? And so they're like, I guess UNESCO was like, all right, we can't let anything like that happen again. Let's get in here and try to preserve this valley. And it was put on the danger list and they started a campaign in 2009 to just basically go in there and figure out how to move forward and keep this valley from getting worse off than it was.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think landmines there is a big deal. So part of their, you know, UNESCO getting involved there is identifying and getting rid of those landmines first and foremost.

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Chuck Bryant]

Let's see Everglades National Park, Florida's treasure, that's on there.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Very sadly on the danger list.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. There's also like civil conflicts really target stuff or endanger sites. Like the historic center of Odessa in Ukraine is on the list. Ancient Aleppo in Syria is on the list. It can. Yeah, that's a big. It seems like armed conflict and climate change are the two biggest threats to World Heritage sites.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think so. You know, we did talk about being delisted and thankfully that's only happened a few times because if you're deleted from the list, that means you're probably done as A thing and that like there's no point in protecting you anymore because it doesn't exist. And one good example of that is the Liverpool Maritime Mercantile City. It was delisted in 2021. This was the historic docklands of Liverpool, very big port town obviously in England. And they built a stadium there. Everton Stadium was built and it was. It basically kind of wiped all that out. So they were like, well, there's no reason for this being on the list anymore.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, the Tower of London is not on the danger list, but it's on the pre danger list for the same reason. The development that's going on in the area threatens to basically take away its natural or historic, I mean, identity. Even just being built around. They're not talking about knocking down the Tower of London, but just building around it can change the built environment enough that UNESCO's like, it's done.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Sometimes it's very sad. In this case in Oman, the Arabian oryx sanctuary was delisted in 2007. That had a population of Arabian oryx antelope and that, you know, that was decimated so much that population such that I believe it fell down to like 65 of them in 2007. And I guess that was. And this was because of poaching obviously and habitat destruction, which makes it super sad. But I guess that was low enough to where they were like, all right, you know, no more protection from us.

[Josh Clark]

I know. And that's sad because it seems like that's when they should swoop in and be like, we're, we're going to occupy this area. Oman. We are. This is no longer sovereign Oman.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I mean, I think there are other organizations that do and protect species like that. So hopefully they weren't just sort of left out in the wind.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean I'm sure that they were on the danger list first and then they just didn't follow through. But that's. That we should say it's not a. It's pretty dishonorable for a country to let one of its sites end up on the danger list. Even worse to have it delisted. So countries tend to work hard to get off of the danger list. And that does actually happen. That happened in 2025 to three different spots. The rainforest of Atanananana in Madagascar, Abu Mena in Egypt. I think that was the crossroads. And then in the old town of Gadames in Libya, that was the crossroads. It was the crossroads between Africa and the Mediterranean a couple thousand years ago. But those were all for different various reasons on the danger list. And those countries worked very hard and aggressively to address all of those issues and get them back off of the danger list. So it is possible to get off the danger list and certainly not be delisted. And usually countries who take this stuff seriously will work hard to do that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, you don't want to be on the naughty list.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly.

[Chuck Bryant]

Earlier when you said crossroads, I thought, genuinely thought you were going to say the Mississippi crossroads where Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil.

[Josh Clark]

Do they have that one crossroad identified?

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know.

[Josh Clark]

It sure seems like it should be a world Heritage site.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure if they actually had the actual crossroads or if it's more of a. Not apocryphal, but. Or maybe it is apocryphal.

[Josh Clark]

It could be both.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Or ephemeral. Could be all three.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Have we taken our second break? I don't think we have, have we?

[Chuck Bryant]

No. Let's take our. It's perfect timing. Look at us. 30 minutes in.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, we'll be right back.

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[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. There is a professor of anthropology at Stanford named Lynn Meskell who basically said it's entirely about political and economic gain at this point. Just a tool in a much larger arsenal of non sorry of nation state politics. And you know, the politics of it all can't be ignored these days. It's, you know, there's an interesting thing that happens, you know, in terms of like repatriation. You know, we've talked at some point here and there about like, you know, when there's plundering from wars and things like that. And all of a sudden the countries own things, or at least have possession of them and place them in museums. And they weren't there to begin with, like, giving this stuff back. There's a big movement for that. But there's also this sort of idea on the other side of like, well, we will take care of that stuff because it is in London or New York City, and we're not gonna give it back to you. And that same sort of mentality has been sort of. The same thing has sort of applied to World Heritage sites, I think, a little bit, where indigenous peoples are kind of moved out of the conversation because the attitude is like, well, you just don't know what's best for your stuff.

[Josh Clark]

Right. It's kind of like if you're a bunch of Westerners coming along as tourists to tour this heritage site, that's of immense cultural value to this local group. If current people from the local group show up, they kind of push their. Out of their way by their face and they're like, out of the way. You. You're ruining the diorama. This took place a thousand years ago. We don't care what's going on with you today. Even though you're directly related to this, I think, is that mentality, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's a good way to say it.

[Josh Clark]

I think, sadly, there's also like a whole. I talked about gaming the system. One of the ways that you can game the system is essentially withdraw, like the United States has done twice now in the 80s, and in 2018, you can withdraw from UNESCO and this convention, but you can still nominate sites, including sites in your own country, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So you're getting the best of both worlds where you can get those tourism dollars for getting new World Heritage sites. And you're also not paying dues or you're not spending any of your own money to support other sites. But if you need help with your sites, because it's World Heritage Site, you can get other countries money who are doing the right thing and paying their dues.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. Not a cool thing to do, if you ask me. The other thing that they've seen, I think kind of starting in, like the 1990s, it seems like, is when countries are getting together and voting together, like forming PACs and voting blocks to either get listed or to. To block maybe a site from getting on the danger list. Because we said that's kind of like being on the naughty list.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, exactly. So, like, Latin American countries will frequently band together and Vote in one another's best interests. Or also, I think even countries that aren't members anymore, say the US can basically be like, hey, vote for us for this thing and, you know, we'll make sure that we up our oil imports from your country by 10% or something.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, interesting.

[Josh Clark]

You know, so I think the more. The more juice you have, the more you can get stuff done, even if you're not a member anymore.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, like we said, this is big money. Like, if you're included on this list, they will. You'll be a part of their advertising campaign. And then you can also create your own around that, you know, touting inclusion, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I can tell you that I want to go see the Minoan palatial centers in Greece. 6 Bronze Age sites that were part of the late Bronze Age collapse. They're about to be, or they were just in 2025 put on. So that's. The Tourism's working already, so you might

[Chuck Bryant]

not have known about that had it not been included. Probably.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. I did not know those sites existed.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I'm sure they have a robust website with lots of pretty pictures, so.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, and that's basically like being there in person. Right. But it's free.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly. Speaking of the danger list, there are a few sites that, you know, you can be removed from the danger list. That's the. That's the goal, I guess, before being delisted. And that happened last year. The rainforest in Madagascar, those the ones that you're talking about? Yeah. They're not on the danger list. And then that town in Libya, was that where the crossroads was?

[Josh Clark]

That's the crossroads.

[Chuck Bryant]

So they, I guess. What do you do? Just raise enough hay or prove that you're actually protecting it in such a way?

[Josh Clark]

Well, I'll give you the example of the crossroads. The old town of Gamates, I believe, is what it is.

[Chuck Bryant]

Gadames.

[Josh Clark]

Gadames. Thank you. Their irrigation techniques were raising the water table, and some of the very ancient buildings were in danger of crumbling from the water exposure. So Libya went in and basically came up with different irrigation techniques that they taught to the locals, lowered the water table, and now the site is no longer in jeopardy and it's off of the danger list.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right.

[Josh Clark]

It's essentially just a question of the host country having the will to spend a few bucks to remedy the situation. That's all it is.

[Chuck Bryant]

I wonder if one member country has enough places that make that danger list. If there's any sort of. Maybe not even Official penalty. But, like, hey, listen, guys, you need to. You got three on the danger list now. You need to get it together.

[Josh Clark]

It's a really bad look.

[Chuck Bryant]

It is a bad look.

[Josh Clark]

Kind of talking about the politics of this, too. There was a really startling turn of events in 2020 where Recep Erdogan, the President of Turkey, unilaterally said, hey, the Hagia Sophia, this part. This part of world heritage. It was a cathedral, then a mosque, and now it's a museum. We're turning it back into a mosque. And UNESCO's like, we didn't talk about this. And Erdogan said, it doesn't matter. We're doing that. And this is like. I mean, this thing was built in the 530s. It's one of the more amazing buildings in the world. And in the 1930s, the court in Turkey said, this is a museum. This is no longer a mosque. Turkey is secular, and that's all there is to it. So it's a museum until Erdogan came along in 2020 and changed it back.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And, you know, unilaterally decided this on his own. And UNESCO was like, hey, not only did you shouldn't have done this, but you didn't tell us you were doing this. And you're using this as, like, this is a World Heritage Site now. You can't use it for your own political gain. You can't try and curry favor with the Turkish, Islamic, Turkish conservatives. And he was like, well, you know, what'd he say? It's not a museum anymore and we're not charging entry fees anymore.

[Josh Clark]

Yep.

[Chuck Bryant]

Was that his, like, comeback?

[Josh Clark]

I guess it was a comeback of sorts or a defense or something. He's like, you don't have to pay to get in anymore.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, this is pretty weak.

[Josh Clark]

But that was 2020, and absolutely nothing happened. That's the other problem. This is a problem with almost everything that has to do with the un. Like, what are you going to do? Really? Yeah, like, I'm fine. I don't care about peer pressure. You know, the international community being mad at me. That's all it takes. And there's nothing that can be done about it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. Let me see, what else is on the danger list? You mentioned the Statue of Liberty. Right. As far as some of the big

[Josh Clark]

dogs, sea level, and of course, the

[Chuck Bryant]

great Great Barrier Reef, that's been threatened for a long time as our reefs all over the world, very, very sad.

[Josh Clark]

Ocean bleaching. Also, the Sydney Opera House is coming close to the danger list because it's sea level rise as well.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, man. It's right there on the water. You got to protect that thing.

[Josh Clark]

I know, man. I say we go out. I just want to throw out a couple more of these amazing intangible ones that are protected. Okay. Great midwifery. From Germany to Togo. Sometimes this can cross cultures, and midwifery is one of them.

[Chuck Bryant]

It should have been from, like, Albania to Zaire. That's how you got to do those.

[Josh Clark]

That would have been great. I called tiki horse breeding in Turkmenistan.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I like that one.

[Josh Clark]

Here's a good one. Ceviche preparation in Peru.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm all about that.

[Josh Clark]

I am, too. You'll also like this one. The Dia de los Muertos in Mexico. The Day of the Dead.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. Hey, you know what? Here's a tip especially for you and me and Emily. If you love that ceviche, you just gotta make sure you gotta say no pulpo.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, really? Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think we. You don't need octopus, right?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, is that what that is? No, I definitely do not. They're too intelligent.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. We learned that in Mexico City that pulpo was the word. So we were like, oh, okay. So that's what we need to avoid.

[Josh Clark]

So you say hold the pulpo. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or just get the one without it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like, I would never go to another country and say, can you not put this thing in there that you traditionally eat? Like, you can find a ceviche that's probably just fish or shrimp or scallop or whatever.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, really? I feel like I take the Burger King approach to tourism, where I was like, I'll have it my way.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, really?

[Josh Clark]

You got anything else?

[Chuck Bryant]

I got nothing else. This is a fun one. I know. This is something I knew nothing about, and now I feel like I know enough. Which is our charge as a show to talk a little bit about it intelligently around a dinner table and to

[Josh Clark]

attend UNESCO World Heritage meetings. And speak up.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Where do they have those? New York.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, let's go.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right.

[Josh Clark]

I'm sure anybody can just walk in. If you want to know more about UNESCO World Heritage, go check out some sites. You can tour the world from your computer again for free. And in the meantime, I think it's time for listener mail. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

This is from Stephen Cook from Halifax, Nova Scotia.

[Josh Clark]

Okay.

[Chuck Bryant]

Who visited the Kowloon Walled City.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, cool.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or at least the park. Hey, guys. Visited that Kowloon Walled City park this past December on our first trip to Hong Kong, and it's a delightful spot with sports facilities for nearby residents, some remnants of the original building foundations as a reminder of its past, and the one original building that is now a museum. That's the one we talked about.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Plus there's a special exhibit that recreates a streetscape in the community using sets from the 2024 film Twilight of the Walled in, which stars Hong Kong action legend Sammo Hung as a local crime boss named Mr. Big. I guess when you're this big, they call you mister. The set recreates a whole block with a barbershop, convenience store, shoe repair stand, and a fish ball making factory with period props and decor. A visit is highly recommended and Steven included a few photos which are great.

[Josh Clark]

Oh I can't wait to see this because I looked all over for the that exhibit and I couldn't find any photos of it. I saw mention of it at some point.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, search Search that email buddy and it'll come up.

[Josh Clark]

Thanks Steven. That's a great one. Yeah. If you have been to Kowloon Walled City, let us know. We want to hear from all of you and if you have anything to say, really even hi. Right, Chuck?

[Chuck Bryant]

Hi. And hello is a great thing to hear always.

[Josh Clark]

Yes, you can send it via email to Stuff podcastheartradio.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,

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