VH-1: MTV for Your Parents

Summary

Stuff You Should Know – "VH-1: MTV for Your Parents"

Podcast: Stuff You Should Know (iHeartPodcasts)
Hosts: Josh & Chuck
Date: October 16, 2025
Episode Theme:
This episode takes a deep dive into the history, evolution, and cultural impact of VH1, MTV's "adult sibling" channel. Josh and Chuck explore VH1's origins as a mellower alternative to MTV, its key shows across decades, shifts from music videos to original and reality programming (including the rise of "celebreality"), and its ongoing relevance in pop culture.
(Ads, intros, and outros have been omitted as per guidelines.)

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Overview

Josh and Chuck nostalgically and humorously recount the story of VH1—how it positioned itself as music TV for a slightly older demographic than MTV, the channel’s various programming reinventions, and how it managed to outlast competitors and sometimes even the cool factor of MTV itself. They analyze the transition from music video blocks to iconic original programming, reality TV, and eventually, the network’s focus on Black audiences and enduring pop culture relevance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Birth and Initial Identity of VH1

• VH1’s Launch & Purpose

  • Launched in 1985, as a “mellower, older, more adult” alternative to MTV.
  • Designed to compete against Ted Turner’s cable music channel and capture the adult contemporary music video audience.
  • “If you were an MTV kid, you thought VH1 was kind of boring, and it was, like, stuff your parents might be into.” – Chuck (11:22)

• Launch Programming

  • First broadcast included Marvin Gaye singing the National Anthem and videos by Diana Ross, Daryl Hall & John Oates, and John Lennon.
  • Early VJs included radio veterans—“untrustworthy former radio vets like Don Imus,” Frankie Crocker, and Bowser from Sha Na Na.
  • “[VH1] was much more willing to put Black artists on its airwaves” – Josh (07:24)

• Challenges

  • Early music videos often pieced together from old footage for artists who pre-dated the MTV video era.
  • Struggled with a bland reputation (“their identity was just being square”).

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2. Building a Brand: The Sykes Effect & Original Programming

• Rescue by John Sykes

  • In 1994, John Sykes (future iHeartMedia exec) overhauled the channel, boosting subscribers from 49 million to 62 million households in three years.
  • He reinvigorated VH1 with fresh, original music programming: “He so changed VH1 for the better…” – Josh (12:36)

• Breakout Shows

  • Pop Up Video (1996): Music videos overlaid with witty, cartoon trivia “bubbles.”
    • “Much smarter show than you’d guess it would be.” – Josh (14:07)
  • Storytellers (1996): Classic rock artists perform and share behind-the-scenes stories (“very popular show”).
  • Legends (1996): One-hour biographical documentaries focused on music icons.
  • Behind the Music (1997): Lurid, melodramatic documentaries about rise-fall-rehab stories, e.g., Leif Garrett’s notorious episode.
    • “These were one-hour documentaries, but they got known very quickly for being very melodramatic and juicy.” – Chuck (18:17)

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3. Breaking Out: Events, Pop Culture, and Philanthropy

• VH1 Fashion Awards (1995–):

  • Hosted in partnership with Vogue; the origin of the “Derek Zoolander” character.

• Save The Music Foundation (1997):

  • John Sykes's initiative sparked music education support in schools.

• Cable Operator Battles

  • Major cable operators tried to drop VH1 even after its resurgence; resulted in fierce campaigns (“You don’t want to mess with the Hen[ley]!” –Josh, 26:36)

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4. Shifting Audiences and the “Dad Rock” Era

• Capturing Adult Music Fans

  • Recognized the expanded lifespan for music fandom (“Gen X and Boomers kept listening to new music into their 30s and 40s,” Josh, 16:25).
  • “Dad rock”—emerged as a core content flavor (Wilco, The Wallflowers, Michael Bolton, Rod Stewart).

• Countdowns & List Shows

  • Compensated for declining music video interest with “The Greatest” countdowns, beginning in 1999 (“Nothing does that better than a countdown” – Josh, 30:17).
  • Reflected the “Listicle revolution” seen online.

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5. Embracing Reality TV and the Rise of "Celebreality"

• From Music to Reality

  • By the early 2000s, VH1 essentially abandoned the “Music First” mantra (dropped to less than half the video play by 2012).
  • Pivoted to “agile” TV production, green-lighting cheap-to-produce, high-concept shows.

• Clip & Commentary Hits

  • I Love the 80s/70s/90s/New Millennium (2002–): Clip shows of comedians/celebs reminiscing, notably including Michael Ian Black and Paul F. Tompkins.
  • Best Week Ever launched a generation of comedy stars (Nick Kroll, Paul Scheer, John Mulaney, Jessica St. Clair, Patton Oswalt, et al.).

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6. Celebreality: Flavor Flav, Rock of Love, and More

• Defining “Celebreality”

  • “Minor celebrities in a reality show… kicked off with Ted Nugent’s Surviving Nugent.” – Josh (41:16)

• Breakout Series

  • The Surreal Life (and spinoffs): Brought odd celebrity ensembles together.
  • Flavor of Love (starring Flavor Flav) was “a tremendous hit–it invaded the zeitgeist in a big way.” – Chuck (43:38)
    • Spawned I Love New York and inspired Rock of Love with Bret Michaels.
    • Noted as “the only show like that I’ve ever watched.” – Chuck (44:46)
  • My Fair Brady and Salt n Pepa spinoffs.

• Programming Specialization

  • Began catering more directly to Black audiences, filling a void as sitcom representation waned.

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7. Controversy and Scandal

• Luridness and Critiques

  • “Lurid” became a defining part of shows like Behind the Music, _Where Are They Now?, and later reality franchises.
  • Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew: Called “perhaps the most evil reality TV series of all time.” (Kayleigh Donaldson)
    • Noted for 12 contestant deaths by 2024—“about a quarter,” in line with rehab statistics, but “much much more visible.” – Josh (48:08)

• Tragedy: Ryan Jenkins Case

  • Contestant on two VH1 shows murdered his wife Jasmine Fiore (August 2009), then killed himself.
  • Following intense negative publicity, VH1 blamed the production company (51 Minds) and began to pivot away from the most exploitative reality approaches toward more Black-created and less scandal-driven programming.

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8. Modern Day VH1: Black Entertainment, RuPaul, and Reruns

• Recent Programming Focus

  • RuPaul’s Drag Race (moved from Logo to VH1 in 2017, then MTV in 2023).
  • Love & Hip Hop and Basketball Wives (12 seasons): Provided major Black entertainment content.
  • Wild N Out reruns now key to VH1 schedule, joined by Fresh Prince and My Wife and Kids.

• Shifting Identity

  • Channel has evolved names (“VH1 Soul,” “VH1 Smooth,” “VH1 Classic”; now: BET Soul and MTV Classic, etc.)
  • “Quite a ride for that channel.” – Chuck (29:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We’re talking about VH1, which is basically the opposite of PCP. As everyone knows who’s ever seen VH1...” – Josh (02:58)
• “Value add hits one.” – Josh’s joke about VH1’s early days (04:16)
• “Rosie O’Donnell actually got her start as a VJ on VH1 in 1985... like three or four years before the Comedy Channel launched.” – Chuck (08:03)
• “Rod Stewart turns out was to music videos what Enya is to crossword puzzles.” – Josh (10:12)
• “Dad rock is kind of like... dudes my age that used to go to all the shows but now just so I could get out to Wilco, like, every year...” – Chuck (27:56)
• “They started new original music programming. And that was really part of the big rebranding effort that was so successful.” – Chuck (13:03)
• “He claimed that he wanted to make it a real meaningful show where it was like an antidote to the cruel tabloid depictions of these people... But he also had to deliver an entertaining show, and those two things could be at odds.” – Chuck on Celebrity Rehab (47:40)
• “They broadcast for Black Americans, but they’re not at all beholden to Black Americans, so they can do basically whatever they want.” – Josh, paraphrasing Danielle C. Belton from The Root (46:24)

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Timeline of Key Segments

• [01:19]: Episode Introduced (“Adult Contemporary edition, video hits one!”)
• [03:44]: Early corporate history, competitive dynamics with Ted Turner
• [05:17] – [07:12]: Launch lineup, first VJs, demographic focus
• [07:24] – [08:55]: Embrace of Black artists and early comedy programming
• [11:06] – [13:03]: Show identity confusion, cable operators begin to drop VH1, John Sykes arrives
• [13:35] – [16:25]: Pop Up Video, Storytellers, Legends, and generational music habits
• [17:11] – [19:32]: Impact of Behind the Music and notable episodes
• [23:18]: Fashion Awards, cultural crossovers (Zoolander)
• [27:05]: The concept and influence of “dad rock”
• [30:17] – [31:58]: The shift to countdown and “Listicle” television
• [34:41]: “Agile” format and the rapid experiment era of original shows
• [36:41] – [38:14]: “Best Week Ever” and the new wave of comedians
• [41:16] – [46:24]: The celebreality boom, Flavor of Love, Rock of Love, Black audience focus
• [47:40] – [48:51]: Celebrity Rehab controversy and death toll
• [49:28] – [51:36]: Ryan Jenkins case and lurid reality TV backlash
• [53:11] – [54:20]: Current era—ruled by RuPaul, Love & Hip Hop, and rerun-heavy strategy

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Additional Memorable Moment

• Listener mail at [54:49] recognizes Chuck’s “psychic” podcast prediction record and closes the main content.

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Conclusion / Takeaway

Josh and Chuck capture the wild, unpredictable journey of VH1: from “MTV for your parents” to a trendsetting hub for music nostalgia, listicles, and eventually, headline-grabbing celebreality, before cementing its legacy as a cornerstone of Black American pop TV and queer culture. Their trademark dry humor and deep pop-culture knowledge make even the network’s messiest moments fascinating—and oddly endearing.

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For fans of music history, pop culture, and the evolution of reality TV, this episode is an excellent primer on why "the channel for your parents" might just have launched some of your favorite shows.

Transcript

[Chuck]

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[Josh]

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[Chuck]

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And this is Stuff youf Should Know, the Adult Contemporary edition video hits one yeah. Did you remember that's what the VH stood for?

[Chuck]

Yeah, and I think that's. I think they ran that little thing I just did. I think that was their. Their thing initially. I don't know, I seem to remember. I don't know if I just made that up or not, but I feel like that's something that's stuck in my brain from the old days.

[Josh]

Well, yeah, from what this research showed, that's exactly the kind of thing they would have run for like the first 10 years.

[Chuck]

Yeah, probably. And this is on VH1, of course. And it's going to be a great warmup for the long awaited Judas Priest show tonight that I'm going to.

[Josh]

Whoa, is that tonight? Awesome, man. I hope you have a bitchin time.

[Chuck]

Yeah, it should be some fun people watching and some good music.

[Josh]

Are you going to smoke PCP in the parking lot like that documentary?

[Chuck]

Oh, you know it, baby. I got my. I ordered some PCP online and it came in a box labeled pcp.

[Josh]

Okay.

[Chuck]

And I opened it up and it said, take two PCPs for best results.

[Josh]

There you go.

[Chuck]

So I think I'm good.

[Josh]

That sounds legit to me.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I think I'm all set.

[Josh]

Well, I have a great time. That's cool. Did you get in touch with Nita Strauss?

[Chuck]

No, no, she may not be stuff you should know person anymore.

[Josh]

Well, try waving to her from the audience and see what happens.

[Chuck]

It's me.

[Josh]

Maybe when you're on pcp, you'll just crawl onto stage.

[Chuck]

Yeah, maybe. You never know. I'm going to take the recommended two, so who knows what's going to happen?

[Josh]

So we're talking about VH1, which is basically the opposite of PCP. As everyone knows who's ever seen VH1, especially if you were around when it debuted back in 1985. It's just like the older, mellower, more, well, again, adult contemporary version of mtv. And it bears a striking resemblance because it was launched by the same company that launched mtv. That whole Warner Brothers AMEX weirdness. Yeah, and the. One of the big reasons they launched VH1 is because they really wanted to put one of their competitors, Ted Turner's cable music channel, in the ground permanently.

[Chuck]

Yeah. And I guess this was before, you know, because they eventually bought them out. If you remember, from the MTV episode.

[Josh]

I do remember I was talking to.

[Chuck]

Dear Listener, but that's okay.

[Josh]

Oh, I see.

[Chuck]

When I address you, I address you as dear leader.

[Josh]

Thanks, I appreciate that.

[Chuck]

Yeah. So this is before they bought them out, clearly, because they were essentially saying, hey, cable companies, if you want another music video station, don't go buy Turner's thing. Just take VH1 for free. If you're getting MTV, we'll just throw it in.

[Josh]

Yeah. Before video hits one, it was value add hits one.

[Chuck]

Well, yeah. And honestly, what got me about researching this was they follow similar paths as far as music videos turned into original programming. But I dare say that VH1 did a better job and stayed more relevant in the long run.

[Josh]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you can make a case. It's still quite relevant. It's definitely changed its mission dramatically. But MTV changed its mission as well. And, yeah, VH1's still relevant. There's no better word to put it.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I think they ended up having much bigger shows when they started doing their original shows than MTV had.

[Josh]

For sure. And as we'll see every once in a while, MTV likes to still poach them, because even though VH1 is more relevant, I get the impression that MTV is still more powerful in that company.

[Chuck]

Yeah. I'm curious the dynamic there.

[Josh]

Let's find out. Anyone who works at MTV or VH1, let us know.

[Chuck]

But like you said, it started out just a few years later and was, you know, they launched with Marvin Gaye singing the National Anthem and then Diana Ross and the very mellower. Well, I guess you Bloss, that loving feeling was always mellow, but I feel like Daryl hall and John Oates even made it even sort of cornier.

[Josh]

Oh, you wanted to hear corny?

[Chuck]

Sure.

[Josh]

I was listening to some Beautiful Music on YouTube this morning as I was studying.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And I heard a instrumental Muzak version of Gordon Lightfoot Sundown. And I was like, chuck would love this one.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I probably would have.

[Josh]

Because every time I hear that song, I hear you doing your impression of it where you're just, like, mumbling the words.

[Chuck]

Yeah, yeah, boy. That's when Canada turned against me, personally.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

And they forgave me. We made up.

[Josh]

So, yeah, it was actually pretty solid lineup. The fourth video that they showed was John Lennon's Nobody Told Me. So that's not a bad way to kick off a new video channel. And I was looking through the rest of The, I think, first 10 or 20 or whatever, and it was just hit after hitting. And the VJs that they had, again, this is the older sibling or maybe even, like, parent.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Like people in their 30s watched VH1.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

Really old people.

[Josh]

Right. People that David Bowie clearly said you couldn't trust any longer.

[Chuck]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh]

That was who the VJs were. They were untrustworthy former radio vets like Don Imus.

[Chuck]

Yeah, Imus was there. Frankie Crocker, Bowser from Sha Na Na.

[Josh]

Yeah. The best VJ I think of all.

[Chuck]

Yeah, maybe so.

[Josh]

There's also a guy named Scott Shannon who we can thank for creating the Morning Zoo radio show format.

[Chuck]

Oh, was he the guy?

[Josh]

He was the guy.

[Chuck]

Wow.

[Josh]

Yeah. I think his headstone, if he's still around, it will eventually say, sorry.

[Chuck]

Yeah. And it just has a fart machine that you can press.

[Josh]

That's not a bad idea.

[Chuck]

That's really not, actually.

[Josh]

So One of the other things that differentiated VH1 from MTV is that pretty much out of the gate, you can tell from the first two videos, it was much more willing to put black artists on its airwaves. Right. Like, we talked about MTV being, like, almost flat out accused of racism by the head of CBS Records. Within a couple of years of its. Its launch, VH1 was not that. I don't know if they learned the lesson or if they were just more into music made by black artists than mtv. I'm not sure. But from the outset, there was a place where you could see more black artists. For sure.

[Chuck]

Yeah. And also a place for comedy. You know, mtv, we lauded some of the sort of sketch shows and the remote Control. Funny game show. But Rosie O' Donnell actually got her start as a VJ on VH1 in 1985. And a few years later, the pretty good Stand up show, Stand Up Spotlight, was on. And this was, you know, three or four years before the Comedy Channel launch, which would eventually become Comedy Central. So there wasn't, you know, HBO was doing some stuff, but there wasn't a lot of standup on television until VH1.

[Josh]

No, but apparently there already was the Half hour Comedy hour on mtv, which I had totally forgotten about. But do you remember that? Oh, yeah, that was a good one.

[Chuck]

Half hour comedy hour.

[Josh]

And then I guess HBO already still had some stuff, too, but for. For the most part, it wasn't crowded at all. Rosie o' Donnell was an innovator in that sense, for sure.

[Chuck]

Yeah. And then their first sort of big original show. I mean, Stand Up Spotlight did pretty well, but my generation, I remember in 1989, with Peter Noone of Herman's Hermits hosting, and it was, you know, it was just him DJing and spinning records, but also sort of talking about trivia, kind of like a Turner Classic Movies for boomers.

[Josh]

Pretty much, yeah. And I was like, herman's Hermits. I know for a fact. I know that band. But I can't remember what their big hit was. So I was looking all over YouTube. I found one of their greatest hits albums, and I just had to skip through all the songs. No, that's not it. Never heard that one before. I don't know who would like this one. And then it finally got to something. Tells me I'm into something good.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I knew where you're headed. Yeah.

[Josh]

And I know that one from the romantic montage in Naked Gun.

[Chuck]

That's right.

[Josh]

And that's my Herman's Hermit story.

[Chuck]

You know, these videos that they were playing on My Generation, a lot of them were just old sort of when they did promotional videos before the true music video format came out. But they also played new stuff. There was plenty of Michael Bolton and crossover stuff that also was playing on MTV that VH1 would, you know, plenty of Rod Stewart, obviously.

[Josh]

Yeah. Rod Stewart turns out was to music videos what Enya is to crossword puzzles.

[Chuck]

Right.

[Josh]

Like, just perennial. Right. She.

[Chuck]

She just popped up again this week in the crossword.

[Josh]

Did she really?

[Chuck]

Oh, yeah. It's funny.

[Josh]

Yeah, that's.

[Chuck]

It just keeps happening.

[Josh]

That's pretty cool. Yeah. I love this ride for her.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

Yes. That was kind of a problem, though, is because some of these acts were already past their prime when they were showing videos on VH1, they hadn't made videos. They were. They were. Their prime came before that whole marketing tool that we talked about on the MTV episode. So they would have to piece together things like concert footage or, like you said, maybe even, like, TV appearances or something like that, and just basically make, like, a. An edited version to make a music video for a particular song. So they. VH1 was kind of hamstrung in a lot of ways right out of the gate.

[Chuck]

Yeah. And it's all because Peter Noon demanded it, right? He's a tyrant.

[Josh]

Yes. He was quite a tyrant. Everyone knows that. You don't even have to know the song. Something tells me I'm into something good to know that Peter Noon was a tyrant.

[Chuck]

Mid-90s. They found themselves floundering a bit, though, because they never really got an identity outside of being sort of the. You know, if you were an MTV kid, you thought VH1 was kind of boring, and it was, like, stuff your parents might be into. Kind of a little more square, but. And that's not an identity.

[Josh]

No.

[Chuck]

Well, I know, but that's not an identity that you want to claim. So they had, like, a mishmash of different shows going on. They had a show called Archives that was just kind of rebroadcasting old TV interviews that they, I guess, had rights to. And so, you know, they just lacked an identity aside from being square. And they also had the same pressures that MTV had with competition coming in, and so much so that cable operators were like, I don't. Like, I don't want to. Even though it's free, I don't want it anymore.

[Josh]

Right.

[Chuck]

So they were trying to get rid of VH1, you know, actively. I think the biggest cable operator in the country at the time, Telecommunications Inc. They were like, I don't even want this free thing.

[Josh]

Yeah. For free. That's pretty sad. That's not good. Actually, it was a dude named John Sykes who essentially saved VH1.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Also iheartmedia executive.

[Josh]

Is he.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

Okay. Well, congratulations, John Sykes, because He definitely turned VH1 around. He was what you would call a good hire.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

Because in 1994, they brought him on, and he so changed VH1 for the better that in 1995, their subscriber base was 49 million households. Three years later, it was up to 62 million households. That's what they call the Sykes effect.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Yeah. And he'd walk out of the room and say, you got psyched. They started new original music programming. And that was really part of the big rebranding effort that was so successful. Top 10 countdown in 94. Eventually top 20 countdown was sort of the big first one. But in 1996, they really, really hit it big pop culturally with a little show called Pop Up Video.

[Josh]

Yes, I remember watching this and it was one of the things about it. So Pop Up Video, if you've never seen it, they would just show music videos. But then there were these little kind of like cartoon word bubbles would pop up with some. Some random fact about the artist, maybe a little trivia, something about music history or. And this is, I think, what captured everybody. Some sort of juicy little bit of gossip or random weirdness that had to do with that specific video. And the two guys who were behind it, Woody Thompson and Ted Lowe, apparently they got pushback from the parent company because the parent company also owned Blockbuster. And they knew from owning Blockbuster, foreign films didn't go anywhere because people didn't like subtitles. So they were like, no one's gonna wanna read anything. But they were very wrong because in large part, Thompson and Lowe were good writers. So this kind of became known for being a much smarter show than you would guess it would be.

[Chuck]

Yeah, it was very clever and a huge, huge hit. Like, I remember watching it. I don't remember, like setting my. My calendar to sit around and make sure I knew when.

[Josh]

Right.

[Chuck]

But I definitely found myself watching it quite a bit. It was a fun show. Storytellers came out in 1996, which was clearly aimed at the kind of, you know, younger boomer, maybe older Gen X generation, because they just had classic rock artists after classic rock artists in an intimate setting singing songs, telling stories about the writing of those songs. Very, very popular show.

[Josh]

Yes. And anytime I think of Storytellers, I think of the Saturday Night Live skit with Neil Diamond.

[Chuck]

I don't think I saw that.

[Josh]

Oh, it was Will Ferrell as Neil diamond and he is just off the rails. At one point he says he's on some dynamite pills, his keyboard, as Kenny gave him. And he, at one point he said, I will smack you in the mouth. I'm Neil Diamond. And it was just bizarre that he. He made this Neil diamond character. But the ironic part of. Is Neil diamond was never on Storytellers. No.

[Chuck]

Well, maybe that's how they got away with it.

[Josh]

It's worth going back and seeing, man. It's an all time great sketch.

[Chuck]

Better than Robert Goulet. That was pretty Good.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

Okay.

[Josh]

100 times, maybe 125.

[Chuck]

Oh, wow. You did the math.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

Legends was another big show that came out that same year in 1996. This was just straight up rock doc stuff. Pretty straightforward one hour documentary style. Again, artists like Bowie and Aretha Franklin and the Clash was in there. I mean, still aimed at that audience. They knew what their bread and butter was, but they started making kind of good shows to support it.

[Josh]

Yeah. And one reason that John Sykes kind of brought it back to music videos and then made all this original music programming is the boomers to start. And then eventually Gen X followed in their footsteps. They kept buying new music. Like they kept listening to music into their 30s and 40s. Previous generations hadn't done that. Like, apparently you were done with music when you turned 30 because life sucked and it was serious and you were in black and white. And if you're a woman, you wore an apron all day. If you were a man, you just drank scotch all day. You just didn't listen to music after a certain point. And that changed. So it made sense that you would kind of target those generations because they also had the most pocket money or spending money too.

[Chuck]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, new music that is like the Mad Men guys listened to the whatever, Artie Shaw or the whatever orchestra. But there were no guys in the 1950s, in their 30s saying like, what's new out there?

[Josh]

Right.

[Chuck]

What can you turn me onto?

[Josh]

I remember one of the more disappointing moments I've ever had in relation to my father was going through his old record collection and the artist he had the most 45s of was Jackie Gleason somehow.

[Chuck]

At least your dad had records. My dad didn't even listen to music hardly.

[Josh]

Your dad made his own music in his jeep on a cb.

[Chuck]

Yeah, that's true. It was weird. I had a weird family.

[Josh]

He had a whole convoy soundtrack going.

[Chuck]

That's true. He would get. I think I've mentioned he would get obsessed with like a song and that's it. And he'd say, hey, Scott, go record that like 17 times in a row on a. On a tape for me.

[Josh]

And Scott would be.

[Chuck]

So you could listen to the theme song.

[Josh]

Here's your tape of hot blooded. 17 times.

[Chuck]

97 was when it really hit the big time with behind the Music. I think Livia helped us out with this one along with the MTV article, and she aptly calls it Legends Evil Twin, because these were one hour documentaries, but they were. It got known very quickly for being very melodramatic and very juicy with like the dirt, the stories about what happened, you know, the real gossipy stuff.

[Josh]

Lurid even, I think, in a lot of ways.

[Chuck]

Yeah. And it ran for a long time.

[Josh]

It did. 97 to I think 2014. Yeah, one of the ones. One of the very famous episodes. But they had a ton of episodes on it from bands from Megadeth to Bette Midler to Notorious B.I.G.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

One of the ones that really kind of infiltrated pop culture though was Leif Garrett. Yeah, it was like a teen idol in the 70s. And he was reunited in his behind the Music with a friend who had become paralyzed from a car crash that Leif Garrett caused when he was drunk back in the 70s. And it was very melodramatic and very kind of drippy and it just kind of made it out as a meme. Eventually I saw Brian on Family Guy. They started one of the episodes.

[Chuck]

Oh, really?

[Josh]

He was just sitting there, I guess, watching behind the Music and mouthing along word for word with the dialogue between Leif Garrett and his friend.

[Chuck]

Shall we take a break?

[Josh]

I didn't expect that. But you know what? I love that you surprised me so. Sure.

[Chuck]

All right, it's 1997. We'll be back to jump back in time a bit and then go forward in time a bit.

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosure America is changing and so is the world.

[Chuck]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Chuck]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Chuck]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so we're back. We promised to jump back in time and we have to because 97 was behind the music. But in 95, VH1 got into the fashion biz as well as MTV had done with Cindy Crawford when they started. They partnered up with Vogue magazine to start hosting the annual Fashion Awards. And that is. Well, it's well known because they did a pretty good job with that as far as the ratings go. But that's also where Derek Zoolander, who we just mentioned, I think in the MTV episode, he appeared for the first time at the Fashion Awards.

[Josh]

Yeah, it was like a pre taped little bit, one or two minute bit. But in the movie Zoolander, he faces his greatest public humiliation at the VH1 Fashion Awards. So they showed up in the movie, which I just watched, I watched recently and it holds up, man. It's still pretty funny.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I bet Ruby would like that.

[Josh]

I bet too. I would definitely show it to her.

[Chuck]

It's just her kind of silly.

[Josh]

I think it is a very silly movie.

[Chuck]

97 they launched save the Music John Sykes. He was principal for a day at a school in Brooklyn that had no music program or couldn't get funding and that still exists. So that's sort of a feather in their cap as the Save the Music Foundation.

[Josh]

Yeah, I read that they've donated 2.8 million rings recorders to schools across the country.

[Chuck]

Now. Are you kidding or is that real?

[Josh]

I'm kidding.

[Chuck]

Are you mocking the recorder?

[Josh]

Yes, I am, Chuck.

[Chuck]

Oh, hey, if you're a recorder maestro out there, just keep on doing it. Don't listen to Josh.

[Josh]

No, don't listen to me. And in fact, listen to me for this part. If you would make us a music bumper for our ad break, that would be awesome.

[Chuck]

Yeah, well, if you can get it, well, it'll be. I wish we could put the call out before this episode came out, because we could put it in this episode.

[Josh]

I mean, we can try.

[Chuck]

Yeah, maybe I'll do it on the Instagram page and see what happens.

[Josh]

Okay.

[Chuck]

All right, moving on to politics, right?

[Josh]

Yeah. Apparently Bill Clinton was a big VH1 viewer, and he donated one of his old saxophones to the Save the Music program.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And they also, I guess in return, made a documentary about him. Bill Clinton, rock and roll president. This was 1997, don't forget.

[Chuck]

That's right. And they also got into the live business with their very, very successful series of Divas concerts. The first One was in 1998. I remember this being a very big deal because they got Aretha Franklin, Mariah Carey, Shania Twain, Gloria Estefan, Carole King, and who else?

[Josh]

Celine Dion.

[Chuck]

Oh, yeah. You can't have a divas concert in 98 without Celine Dion pounding her chest.

[Josh]

No, that's a murderer's row of divas.

[Chuck]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Josh]

So even despite all of this reprogramming, very, very successful and popular programming, you could argue that if this wasn't the golden era of VH1, it was certainly one of the golden eras.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

Cable operators were still dropping VH1. I guess they hadn't gotten the news yet. Right. So VH1 kind of organizes something similar to I Want my MTV that MTV had used before it started getting picked up by cable operators. And they actually staged a protest in Denver because the. I guess the cable operator there had dropped VH1. And they got Don Henley and John Mellencamp and Jewell to fly out there and protest. And I guess en route, they were in the air and the cable operator got word of what was about to happen, and they agreed to pick VH1 back up.

[Chuck]

They were like, don Henley's coming.

[Josh]

You don't want to mess with the hen.

[Chuck]

You definitely don't want to mess with Don Henley. No, they were pretty successful in getting, like you said, all those viewers back, to the delight of ad salespeople, because they had that 18 to 49 year old demographic that is so juicy. And everyone knows those are the people that have all the bucks or at least back then they did. And so they were able to land some big ad dollars as a result and were seemingly thriving.

[Josh]

Yeah. And it didn't hurt that there were plenty of new artists who were making the kind of music that would make a little more sense on VH1 than, say, MTV, like Natalie Merchant. Celine Dion, as you mentioned, was enormous at this time. You probably would not see a Celine Dion video on MTV, but she was right at home on VH1. Michael Bolton. Michael Bolton. Alanis probably straddled the two. Same with, like, the Wallflowers or Goo Goo Dolls or something like that.

[Chuck]

Ooh. Okay.

[Josh]

And these are real deal. I watched some VH1 blocks to come up with some examples. So all of those had. Had videos on VH1, everybody. That's the kind of research you can expect from stuff you should know.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I think, like, before dad rock was a term, that was probably the angle.

[Josh]

What's dad? I've not heard that before. So what does it cover?

[Chuck]

Dad rock is kind of like, I know Wilco gets thrown in there a lot as, like, you know, kind of dudes my age that, like, used to go to all the shows, but now, just so I could get out to Wilco, like, every year and, you know, that kind of thing.

[Josh]

I saw this meme on Instagram where it's this girl sitting in a. Like, a stadium seat, and she has a very unhappy look on her face. And it says, anyone over 40 when the third opening band starts to set up at 9pm it's so true, man.

[Chuck]

That's funny.

[Josh]

It just starts too late.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I'm with you. Shows are starting earlier, though. I feel like I read that.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

Like, these legacy shows that I'm seeing, all these olds, they're getting up on stage at, like, you know, opening band at 7, regular band at 8, out by 9, 39, 45.

[Josh]

Hey, we start at 7 promptly. If we ever start later.

[Chuck]

We try to.

[Josh]

Yeah, if we start later than seven. It's the venue itself saying, please let us hold because we're making mad cash at the bar.

[Chuck]

Yeah, it's actually the audience's fault.

[Josh]

Yeah, it really is.

[Chuck]

Because they're like, they're not in yet. They're just getting here. There's a lot of traffic.

[Josh]

It's actually traffic's fault in some towns are worse for it than others. Some towns are just like, we know you're not gonna start while we're getting liquor. Sorry.

[Chuck]

Yeah, but like, with mtv, they would, you know, start sort of changing things and rebranding These are companies that just seemingly changed the channels, not literally, but changed their programming a lot. And, like, the names of the channel change a lot.

[Josh]

Yes.

[Chuck]

Like, you know, MTV to MTV2 and MTV Classic. And VH1 kind of did the same. They had VH1 Soul, which is now BET Soul, VH1 Smooth, which was more like Kenny G kind of stuff. But then they're like, who wants that? Let's Change that to VH1 classic rock, and then just VH1 classic, and now it's MTV Classic.

[Josh]

It's quite a ride for that channel.

[Chuck]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh]

VH1 smooth. I can't believe that ever made it outside of the initial meeting.

[Chuck]

Yeah, true.

[Josh]

So VH1 just like MTV is like, okay, if we can't hold people's attention from video to video, we got to come up with a different kind of show. And so they stopped playing videos almost. It dropped almost by 50% from 99 to 2012.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

And remember, like, it had been relaunched in 94 as, like, VH1 Music First. And it just. It wasn't sustainable at the turn of the millennium. Right. So they started getting into countdown shows. They figured out how they could keep showing videos. They just needed to adjust it, put them in a certain kind package that would hold your attention a little more. Nothing does that better than a countdown. And they kicked it off in grand style with the 100 Greatest Artists of Rock and Roll, hosted by none other than Kevin Bacon. Yeah. And this kicked off their whole the Greatest Countdowns format, which started in 98. 99. Sorry. And ran to 2012.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Which, you know, I was kind of thinking about it. They ended up. The last episode was 40 greatest pranks part four, so. And I was like, what a weird kind of thing. But that was right in the middle of the Listicle revolution that was going on online. And this is kind of the same version of that. Cause I was like, oh, man. I remember when you and I were writers for How Stuff Works back in the day. We were sort of fighting up against that because it seems like that was what the Internet became for a period of years, was just list, top 10 list, list, list, list, list.

[Josh]

Yeah. I mean, where do you think are 10 dumb criminals episode came from?

[Chuck]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's one reason why we don't do a lot of those anymore is because people aren't writing that kind of stuff anymore. I like to think we change with the time. Yeah.

[Josh]

Plus also, they can be kind of thin every once in a while, though. It's a good one. I Can't think of any off the top of my head, but we've done some good top tens that.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I mean, they're pretty breezy, which I think people enjoy from time to time, for sure.

[Josh]

So the luridity kind of really started to show itself a little more with where are they now? 1999 show that basically said, where are like one hit wonders and former child stars? What are they doing now? Let's just peek in on their sad lives and see what's what.

[Chuck]

Yeah, they got into movies. One thing we didn't mention was MTV Films, which had some pretty successful movies that they were putting out. I think I remember the movie Election from Alexander Payne, one of my favorite movies. I think that was an MTV film. But VH1 didn't fare as well on the movie front. But they did have one sort of noteworthy one called Two of Us, which was. Okay, it was in 2000. It was a fictionalized story about when Paul McCartney and John Lennon were hanging out in 1976. The night that Lorne Michaels on SNL on air said, if the Beatles come down here, I'll pay you. I can't remember. It was like a million bucks or something.

[Josh]

I saw $3,000.

[Chuck]

Was that what it was?

[Josh]

That's what I saw. Which I was like, even in 1976, that wasn't that much money.

[Chuck]

I can't remember. I mean, you can watch the clip on YouTube and see him say it with his own mouth. I just didn't have a chance. Yeah, but at any rate, it was a fictionalized version of them hanging out that night, which is supposedly a true story.

[Josh]

Right.

[Chuck]

That they were gonna come down and play on snl like it wasn't that far from the Dakota.

[Josh]

What happened?

[Chuck]

Supposedly they were too stoned. Oh, no, that's as the story goes at least.

[Josh]

And by stone, do you mean on heroin, probably?

[Chuck]

No, I think they each took two PCPs.

[Josh]

Oh, there you go. As per the instructions.

[Chuck]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh]

So by this time they finally dropped pretense. This would be VH1 we're talking about again. And they just stopped using the music first tagline because it was just a bold faced lie at this point. Legends ended, pop up videos ended. And it was time for a new shakeup because John Sykes had done his work. And so MTV Networks hired a new guy named Brian Graden. And he said, we're going to shift more toward pop culture. Right. We're not even going to show blocks of videos anymore and countdowns. And he hired a guy named Jeff Old who was New and he became executive vice president for programming and production. And the thing that old brought to this whole thing, following the marching orders to make more pop culture relevant shows, is for. He gave his producers free rein to just. You got an idea, put it on air, and if it works, awesome. If it doesn't, whatever. It's called the agile format of project management, where you just do a bunch of stuff, some of it fails, and you just keep going.

[Chuck]

Yeah. I mean, not a bad idea.

[Josh]

No. And the other thing about it too, is that kind of stuff, like green lighting a really easy show idea quickly usually means you can make it very cheaply. And that was what they did. They made very, very inexpensive shows that still were very, very popular because the concepts were so good.

[Chuck]

Yeah. And I love the 80s was the first big, big hit out of that camp that premiered in 2002. It was not a show I watch much, but it was one that was almost kind of hard to avoid somehow. I feel like I remember just seeing Michael Ian Black on my screen a lot here and there. He was one of the comedians.

[Josh]

He was. He was on like a million episodes of it, I think.

[Chuck]

Yeah, he did great with that. But it was comedians and celebrities just sort of, you know, it was like kind of quick clip stuff of them sitting talking headstyle talking and reminiscing about whatever the decade was.

[Josh]

Yeah, it's funny. So it was a clip show of talking heads. And it would frequently end up on Talk Soup, which was a clip show of talking heads.

[Chuck]

Yeah.

[Josh]

So Talk Soup would be covering another clip show. But it worked. Talk Soup was great.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I enjoyed Talk Soup. I love the 80s. It was based on a BB show that was definitely a little more serious and sort of recounting the decade. But it was a big hit again in the 1849 demographic. And so they did the I love the 70s, I love the 90s. They did I Love the New Millennium, which only covered through 2007. Cause it debuted in 2008 and I think in 2014. I love the 2000s was the last one in the series that ran. Another great show was called Best Week Ever. And then eventually Best Week Ever with Paula Tompkins. Because friend of the show and our pal Paul was the host where they recounted the last week. And this was a big launching pad for a lot of like, great, great comedians.

[Josh]

Yeah, it was. It was a spinoff from I love the 80s. I think PF Tompkins was one of the comedians. One of the frequently recurring comedians on that show.

[Chuck]

Yeah. You want me to list out some comedians who started there.

[Josh]

I would love that, Chuck, please, please do.

[Chuck]

And I'm not saying that they were not doing anything, but certainly were not the household names they are now. But Nick Kroll, okay, Paul Scheer, Doug Benson, Rob Huebel, a little comedian named John Mulaney, the wonderful Jessica St. Clair, Michael Shea, Michael Ian Black, Patton Oswalt. And I was watching some of Best Week Ever this morning and Paul's wonderful wife, who we've spoken about, Janie Haddad Tompkins, was in one of the little bits and I had no idea Janie was ever on there. So I'm going to, I took a screenshot and I'm going to text it to her later.

[Josh]

Nice. So that if it was launched in 2004, those people's careers did start to take off around that time or after that. So yeah, it must have been a huge launching pad for them for sure.

[Chuck]

Yeah, it was a fun show.

[Josh]

But it also goes to show you, all of those names were pretty much recognizable today. That also is a testament to just how popular Best Week Ever. And I love the 80s was. So the H1 was doing a pretty good job shifting away from music. Right? But they still hadn't gotten into what we would call reality yet. And it's about here that you'll notice we stop talking about music pretty much altogether and get into the world of reality tv.

[Chuck]

All right, I guess that means a break, right?

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

All right, we'll be right back. Stuff you should know.

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

Complete disclosures [e-mail] Disclosures America is changing and so is the world.

[Chuck]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington D.C. i'm.

[Chuck]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Chuck]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh]

So Chuck, we Talked about how VH1 is transitioning into reality shows and they didn't invent reality shows. They were a really early contributor and they had a lot of reality shows over the years, still do. But they came up with the term celebreality. And I did not know this but. So celebreality is usually minor celebrities in a reality show, sometimes big celebrities. But the whole thing that kicked it off, I didn't know this was Ted Nugent's celebrity reality show, Surviving Nugent.

[Chuck]

Yeah, I remember that being on. Didn't watch it, but that was, you know, Ted Nugent had people out to do what Ted Nugent does, which is shoot guns and shoot arrows and do things that the Nuge was into.

[Josh]

Yeah, it was like a competition reality show. And he would have. It was. He was the arbiter of who stayed or went and competitions would be like them carrying manure with their bare hands or climbing under an electrified fence. And it was real enough that at one point Ted Nugent suffered a chainsaw cut to his leg, self inflicted. That required 40 stitches.

[Chuck]

It's a lot of stitches.

[Josh]

It really Is. But this was not so. Again, this was kind of contemporaneous to the Osbournes, which beat Surviving Nugent by a year in the same time as the Simple Life. So this was definitely. It was in the air that people wanted to see celebrities acting bizarrely in real life. And I just made such air quotes that I actually just jammed one of my fingers.

[Chuck]

Right. The Surreal Life became a big hit for them after they co opted it from the WB a couple of years after it debuted. It was a much bigger hit on VH1. And that eventually led to maybe. I mean, I don't know. I was about to say unlikely, but maybe not because Flavor Flav has so much charisma and personality. I was always so into Public Enemy from, like high school on. They were probably my favorite hip hop group of all time. And so it was a little weird for me all of a sudden to see Flav doing his thing on a reality show. But the Flavor of Love was a tremendous hit. It was only around for a few years, but it was like it invaded the zeitgeist in a big way.

[Josh]

Yeah. And so he became a reality TV star thanks to the Surreal Life. I think he was in season three. And one of the other shows he was on was Strangelove, which followed his relationship with Brigitte Nielsen, who is a good 2ft taller than him, striking blonde, who they fell in love when they met on the Surreal Life. And they shared quarters with Charo, Dave Coulier, Jordan Knight from New Kids on the Block. And so that spawned Strange Love and Flavor of Love. And then Flavor of Love spawned I Love New York, starring Tiffany New York Pollard, who is one of the contestants on Flavor of Love. Flavor of Love also inspired Rock of Love, which featured Bret Michaels from Poison replacing the Flavor Flav as the Bachelor. Right.

[Chuck]

Yeah. The. Still the only show like that I've ever watched. I did watch Rock of Love.

[Josh]

Yeah.

[Chuck]

I don't know why I started, but I started and I couldn't stop.

[Josh]

That's the sign of a VH1 reality show right there, buddy.

[Chuck]

Yeah, for sure. So whoever was pulling the strings, you know, after the Surreal Life was on and Flav was on there, there was some guy, some kind of square in the office. It was like, who's this guy with a clock? He's fantastic, right? We gotta get him his own show.

[Josh]

I know it's nuts, but it worked for sure. There were two other big offshoots from this real life. I mean, there were a cavalcade of them, but there were some other Big shows that came from it. One was My Fair Brady, which followed Christopher Knight and Adrian Curry. Christopher Knight was Peter Brady and Adrian Curry and their unlikely relationship. They met on Surreal Life as well.

[Chuck]

And then the song who Is She?

[Josh]

She was a Playboy model.

[Chuck]

Ah, okay.

[Josh]

And then Salt and Pepper had their own show because I guess they were on the Surreal Life. I didn't know that, but they had. I didn't know that they were reuniting or thinking about reuniting. I guess Peppa was trying to talk Salt into it, but Salt had had a religious conversion and was hesitant to take up the hip hop life again.

[Chuck]

Oh, interesting. Well, it sort of filled a void, as Livia sort of aptly pointed out that, you know, there was a big boom for sitcoms about black families in the 90s and even in the early 2000s, but then there was sort of a dearth of those for a little while. So this kind of, you know, filled that void. And VH1 took notice and started sort of delivering content to black America. And still do.

[Josh]

Yes. And they can take some guff for it sometimes. In part. I saw it best explained on the route by Danielle C. Belton. And she basically says they broadcast for black Americans, but they're not at all beholden to black Americans, so they can do basically whatever they want. And they very frequently feature stereotypes of black women. It's like angry and violent and prone to yelling and stuff like that. So it's like a mixed bag. Yeah, but however you approach it, as of back in 2014, I didn't see any more recent statistics. But in 2014, VH1 was the number one network in African American households, followed by BET and the Oprah Winfrey Network. So they were definitely doing something that black America liked.

[Chuck]

They beat Oprah out. Yeah, that says a lot.

[Josh]

Yes, it does.

[Chuck]

And bet.

[Josh]

Yeah, for sure.

[Chuck]

Another show that got them a lot of flack eventually was celebrity rehab with Dr. Drew Pinsky that premiered in 2008. There's a critic that Livia found named Kaylee Donaldson, called it perhaps the most evil reality TV series of all time. You probably know Dr. Drew from Loveline with Adam Carolla early on. And Dr. Drew is, or was, and is, I guess, a real therapist and trained at treating addiction. So he wasn't just some pretty face that they put on tv. And he claimed that he wanted to make it, like, a real meaningful show where it was like an antidote to the cruel tabloid depictions of these people that were suffering through addiction. But he, you know, he also had to deliver an entertaining show, and those two things could be at odds. And it got a lot of flack. Cause, like, people started dying from their addictions.

[Josh]

Yeah. By 2024, 12 of, by my count, about 45 rehab patients on the show had died. A lot of them from, like, overdosing or direct complications from their addictions, like brain aneurysms, which I is about more. It's a little more than a quarter, which apparently is actually in line with the success rate of traditional rehab. It's just much, much, much more visible. But it was also, again, the L word, lurid. To just show people's, you know, low points and rock bottom after rock bottom on tv for money, for ad money, you know.

[Chuck]

Yeah, for sure. And speaking of laurid, we're loathe to mention Diddy, but there was a show called I Want to Work for Diddy in 2008. And a silver lining of that is that it launched the career of Laverne Cox and also just launched the sort of normalization of trans people on tv. A couple years after that show, Laverne Cox and fellow trans women, Jamie Clayton and Nina Poon got their own VH1 show called Transform Me. It was kind of a Queer Eye for the Straight Guy kind of thing, but for CIS women. And it was one of the first shows with trans stars.

[Josh]

Yes.

[Chuck]

Like, period.

[Josh]

And you put all this together and VH1 had its highest Nielsen ratings ever in this era, the late 2000s. The aughts, as we who live through it call them. Yeah. And then tragedy struck, and the publicity was so searingly bad that VH1 essentially threw the. The company that had been cranking out hit after hit for them under the bus. And it centered around the murder by a man named Ryan Jenkins, who had been a contestant on not one or had been featured on not one, but two VH1 reality shows. He murdered his wife, Jasmine Fiore.

[Chuck]

Yeah, he was a real estate developer. He was a. You know, they got rich guys to be contestants on a dating show called Megan Wants to Be, or I'm sorry, Megan Wants a millionaire. And 51 minds was the name of this company that was, like, churning out these shows. After the show ended, he married Jasmine Fiore and he got I love Money 3, another VH1 show. And they said 51 months is like, hey, in retrospect, I remember this storyline we had. It was gonna revolve around him calling his new wife a lot and seemingly obsessive and jealous and very suspicious, and he ended up murdering her. In August of 2009.

[Josh]

Yeah, it got even worse than that. He tried to prevent her from being identified. So he removed her fingers and her teeth, he put her, folded her up in a suitcase and dumped the suitcase in a dumpster. And I read that it almost worked. But they identified her. They had to identify her through the serial numbers on her breast implants. And so all this comes out and it's very clear that Ryan Jenkins was to blame. He hung himself in a motel room. And in his note, even he blames Jasmine Fiore for him killing himself. Doesn't take any responsibility whatsoever for killing her.

[Chuck]

I remember that now. I wasn't familiar, but as soon as he said that, I kind of remember that storyline.

[Josh]

Yes. And all of this happens in one month in 2009. And if you are pumping out lurid reality show after lurid reality show, your viewership is going to be highly interested in this story. And it's going to get out. And it's going to get out to the rest of America who's going to make a bunch of noise about how terrible these reality shows are. And here's evidence of it. Because also that Ryan Jenkins guy, it turned out that he had been convicted in Canada of assaulting his girlfriend and it didn't show up on a. Or he had been arrested. I'm sorry. Of assaulting his girlfriend in Canada. Hadn't shown up on a background check. So people were like, this stuff is terrible. And VH1 said, you know what? We agree. It's all that company that sent us these shows. We didn't even want them. We didn't even ask for them. This company, 51 Minds, they just, they just made us run these shows and they really threw them under the bus and made it look like they were turning their back on the whole concept. And they did. Largely, there was a huge shift, but there were still shows like Dating Naked that was on from 2014 to 2016. And a lot of their existing reality shows continued on past this scandal, but they did shift a little more to reality TV that was made by black creators. They kind of moved away from the more lurid stuff to a little more engrossing black created shows.

[Chuck]

Yeah, RuPaul's Drag Race has been a big hit, sort of a niche hit, but very, very popular show. You know, it's RuPaul, so it's campy. It's a parody of reality competition that launched in 2009 on Logo, but then moved to VH1 in 2017 and then eventually MTV in 2023.

[Josh]

That's a long run.

[Chuck]

Yeah. Love and Hip Hop has been a very big show created by Mona Scott Young. It started out with kind of being about Jim Jones the rapper, and then eventually shifted over to his girlfriend Chrissy Lamkin, and just the hip hop scene in New York in their world.

[Josh]

Same with Basketball Wives by Shaquille o' Neal's ex wife, Shaunie Henderson.

[Chuck]

Yeah, big hit.

[Josh]

It just had its 12th season. And then Nick Cannon presents Wild N Out, which is a improv competition show and they're still making new episodes. It started out on MTV and then moved to VH1 in 2019. And very much like ridiculousness, reruns of Wild naut are carrying VH1 right now, apparently with Fresh Prince of Bel Air and My Wife and Kids reruns.

[Chuck]

I never saw Dating Naked. What was that about?

[Josh]

It was exactly what it sounds like.

[Chuck]

Oh, okay.

[Josh]

Exactly. There's no. It needs no explanation whatsoever.

[Chuck]

Okay. I was kidding.

[Josh]

Oh, man. You got me, buddy. I think we're even for all time now.

[Advertiser]

Okay, good.

[Josh]

Well, Chuck said. Okay, good. And we don't have anything more to say about VH1 except go watch some VH1. And that means it's time for listener mail.

[Chuck]

That's right. By the way, I was not bagging on Wilco. I hope it didn't come across that way. They are sort of thrown in that dad rock category. But I always love Wilco. I read all of Jeff Tweedy's books, was big into Uncle Tupelo, so I'm not bagging on Wilco. I like Wilco.

[Josh]

Jeff Tweedy's the Spy Master and the Tinkerer.

[Chuck]

Well, yeah, of course. And the Tinkerer too is really good. Hey, Chuck. Josh and Jerry. I've been a listener for a few years and used to do the sandwich method for listening to the episodes, but recently decided to work all my way through and catch up to the present. I find this is a better method personally, since listener mail and references from past shows don't really make sense when listening to newer episodes before listening to the episodes that came before. Anywho, this is not why I'm writing in. I'm not sure if you're aware, but Chuck Stradamas struck again. The episode April 26, 2018. Does pyromania actually exist? Josh brings up John Leonard Orr, convicted serial arsonist, mass murdered former firefighter, arsonist, investigator. And Chuck, around 3439, says, that's a movie waiting to happen. Well, my friends, seven years later, Apple TV Radio releases Smoke TV show based on John Leonard Orr.

[Josh]

Wow.

[Chuck]

If you haven't watched the show, I definitely recommend watching, even though I've spoiled the plot. Keep up the Good work, guys. P.S. is Chuck's ability a gift or a crazy coincidence? That is Brenda S. From Dallas, Texas. And Brenda, I love that you're getting my back as Chuck Stradamas because my past predictions of Hugh Jackman playing P.T. barnum, and most notably, that I thought Jared from Subway was a creep long before his truth came out.

[Josh]

Don't forget predicting Sharknado.

[Chuck]

Oh, and Sharknado. That's true. That might be the feather in the cap, but in this case, I don't know if you can really claim Chuck Stradama's territory. If it's just like, hey, that would make a good movie, and it became a movie.

[Josh]

I feel like you really just burst Brenda's bubble.

[Chuck]

No, I'm bursting my own bubble. What do you think? Can I get a ruling from you? Dearly?

[Josh]

I will allow it as one of Chuck Stradromus predictions that came true.

[Chuck]

All right. It's canon, okay? Not Nick Cannon.

[Josh]

No, we're not wilding out here.

[Chuck]

We're not.

[Josh]

If you want to get in touch with us like Brenda and try your luck at having us burst your bubble and have a lot of alliteration as we do, you can send us an email to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

[Chuck]

For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. America is changing, and so is the world.

[Chuck]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Chuck]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Chuck]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new snafu every single episode.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop.

[Chuck]

What? Yeah, it's going to be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna. Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

I'm Eva Longoria. And I'm Maite Gomez Jejuan. And this week on our podcast, Hungry for History, we talk oysters. And plus the Miami Chief stops by.

[Josh]

If you are not an oyster lover.

[Chuck]

Don'T even talk to me.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells to vote politicians into exile. So our word ostracize is related to the word oyster.

[Josh]

No way.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Bring back the Oster con. Listen to Hungry for history on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chuck]

This is an iHeart podcast.