What's the deal with Swiss neutrality?

Summary

Stuff You Should Know

Episode: What's the Deal with Swiss Neutrality?

Hosts: Josh Clark & Chuck Bryant
Date: July 23, 2026
Podcast: Stuff You Should Know (iHeartPodcasts)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the concept of Swiss neutrality—how it developed, its historical underpinnings, its modern interpretation, and the complexities (and controversies) surrounding Switzerland’s role as a neutral power. Hosts Josh and Chuck unpack the roots of neutrality from medieval confederations to modern peacekeeping, examine Switzerland’s complicated financial legacy (including the infamous “Nazi gold” scandal), and discuss the quirky and serious results of being steadfastly neutral in today's world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Swiss Identity Beyond Neutrality

• The hosts kick things off by riffing on Switzerland’s multiple claims to fame: not just cheese or chocolate, but also cuckoo clocks, scenic mountains, and “beautiful people” ([02:13-02:29]).
• Josh notes, “There’s a lot to Switzerland, everybody. And this is just one of myriad things we could talk about, and that is Swiss neutrality” ([02:30]).

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2. Historical Origins

• Cantonal Roots: Switzerland began as a loose confederation of independent cantons in the 13th century, united for self-preservation in the Alps ([06:09-07:12]).
• William Tell Myth: Addresses the legendary William Tell as a nationalist symbol of resistance against outside domination ([05:17-06:09]).
• Geographical Buffer: The mountain passes made Switzerland a useful “buffer zone” for powerful neighbors such as France, Italy, and Germany ([07:12-07:53]).

Notable Quote:
“They've from time to time served as a very useful buffer which has helped other outside nations support their bid for neutrality ... their isolation ... gave them this fiercely independent streak as a nation.”
— Chuck ([07:53])

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3. Transformation from Militant to Neutral

• Warlike Past: Contrary to modern perceptions, medieval Swiss mercenaries were feared across Europe. Machiavelli called them the "New Romans" for their military prowess ([09:34-10:16]).
• Battle of Marignano (1515): A devastating defeat led the Swiss to rethink active participation in European wars. After losing half their army (10,000 men), neutrality appeared more attractive ([10:41-11:39]).
• Religious Division: Differing religious allegiances (Protestant/Catholic) made neutrality the only way to keep the confederation intact ([12:21-13:16]).

Memorable Moment:
“The Swiss said, you know what? Let's just stay neutral. And this is a good example of how being neutral has literally kept the country together many times over the years.”
— Chuck ([13:08])

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4. Formalization of Neutrality

• Independence from Holy Roman Empire: In 1648, Swiss nationhood and neutrality were secured through the Peace of Westphalia, thanks in part to Basel’s mayor Johan Rudolf Vetchstein ([15:52-17:06]).
• Napoleonic Turbulence: French occupation led to the briefly imposed ‘Helvetic Republic.’ After Napoleon’s defeat, Swiss neutrality was reaffirmed at the 1815 Congress of Vienna ([17:57-20:22]).
• Modern State: Switzerland became a unified federal republic in 1848, officially committed to neutrality ([20:06-20:22]).

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5. Neutrality in Practice

• Armed but Neutral: Switzerland maintains a significant military intended strictly for defense, not aggression ([24:03-25:17]).
  • Ex: At one point, 400,000 Alpine troops were raised to discourage Nazi invasion ([25:29-26:45]).
• Geneva Conventions: Switzerland’s active role as “neutral ground” made it a natural host for major diplomatic breakthroughs, arbitration, and the creation of humanitarian conventions ([28:06-29:20]).

Notable Quote:
“...they literally wrote the rules on arbitration. …This is a place where you can meet and work out your differences. Let's all just work out our differences…”
— Chuck ([29:30])

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6. Switzerland as Global Mediator

• Arbitration and “Good Offices”: Switzerland regularly represents interests of countries with no diplomatic relations. Example: “They represent Iran and Canada” ([30:37-30:43]).
• Businesslike Image: Swiss mediation services aren’t just goodwill—they are run with “business-like” precision and clear (sometimes lucrative) fee structures ([31:00-31:39]).

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7. Humanitarian Tradition

• The Red Cross: Founded in Geneva (by Henry Dunant), the Red Cross continues to embody Swiss humanitarian ideals. Dunant’s work after witnessing battle carnage led to the first Geneva Convention ([31:39-33:35]).
• Personal Sacrifice: Dunant bankrupted himself for humanitarian causes, only later recognized with the first Nobel Peace Prize ([34:26-35:17]).

Notable Moment:
“He was one of the co recipients of the first Nobel peace Prize in 1901. Quite rightfully so. But this guy was seriously, legitimately a good person.”
— Chuck ([35:17])

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8. Financial Secrecy & Controversies

• Swiss Banks: Swiss reputation for secrecy became legendary with the Federal Banking Act of 1934 and the proliferation of secret numbered accounts ([41:35-41:40]).
• Nazi Gold: Swiss National Bank laundered hundreds of millions in looted Nazi gold during WWII. Only a fraction ($1.25 billion of assets, after lawsuits) was eventually returned to Holocaust victims’ heirs ([42:45-46:56]).

Notable Quote:
“So they basically kept hundreds of millions of dollars ... of legitimate deposits from legitimate heirs of victims of the Holocaust.”
— Chuck ([45:38])

• International Pressure: Swiss reforms on secrecy largely followed scandals, lawsuits, and threats to their banking industry's bottom line ([46:56-47:19]).

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9. International Organizations: Reluctance and Independence

• United Nations: Switzerland only joined the UN in 2002 after a close referendum, wishing to maintain impartiality ([48:00-48:51]).
• European Union: Switzerland refuses EU membership, preferring bilateral trade deals and direct democracy over ceding sovereignty ([49:07-51:54]).
• NATO: Also no plans to join, as it's a military alliance.

Memorable Moment:
“When you think thirst, you think sprite. When you think neutral, you think of Switzerland.”
— Chuck ([51:01])

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10. Modern Nuances and Public Sentiment

• Conscription: Military service is mandatory for men, voluntary for women ([27:16-27:50]).
• Immigration and Wages: Switzerland maintains strict immigration controls to avoid wage depression ([51:07]).
• Swiss Brand: Switzerland’s neutrality remains a “brand” asset as much as a policy ([50:08-51:01]).

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Intro & Swiss Stereotypes: [02:08-02:30]
• Medieval Roots & Cantons: [06:09-07:53]
• Battle of Marignano & Shift to Neutrality: [10:16-13:16]
• Thirty Years War & Peace of Westphalia: [15:21-17:06]
• Napoleonic Era & Helvetic Republic: [17:56-20:22]
• Creation of Swiss Army & Rules of Neutrality: [24:03-25:17]
• Geneva Arbitration Tradition: [28:06-29:20]
• Red Cross & Henry Dunant: [31:39-35:17]
• Swiss Banking & Nazi Gold: [41:35-46:56]
• Reluctance toward UN, EU, & NATO: [48:00-51:54]
• Swiss Brand as Synonymous with Neutrality: [51:01]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Our differences of opinion are too great right now among the cantons. So we're just going to not have an opinion officially as a country.” — Chuck ([13:08])
• “It’s not like branding, branding, but it kind of is ... they don’t want to just throw that all away.” — Josh ([50:08])
• “If you want to know more about Swiss neutrality, travel to Switzerland or watch a documentary on Switzerland.” — Chuck ([52:19])

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Summary Takeaways

• Swiss neutrality is deeply rooted in geography, culture, and necessity, not just idealism.
• Neutrality has sometimes meant pragmatic commerce or strict self-isolation, but it has also enabled Switzerland to become a global hub for diplomacy and philanthropy.
• Their policies are frequently a balancing act between protecting sovereignty, safeguarding economic interests, and responding—sometimes belatedly—to international moral imperatives.
• Controversies like secret banking and Nazi gold have marred their spotless image, leading to reform primarily when financial or reputational pressure required it.
• “Neutral” remains both a national value and one of the world’s most powerful geopolitical brands.

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For more:

• Visit Switzerland (as Chuck jokes—[52:19]), read more about the Red Cross’s origins, or explore documentaries and articles on Swiss banking history and modern international relations.

Transcript

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[Tareka Foster Brasby]

Hey, everybody. I'm Tareka Foster Brasby. What's up, y'?

[Josh Clark]

All?

[Tareka Foster Brasby]

I'm your girl, Sheryl Swoooobs. When you tune in to a new episode of our podcast, Levels to this, you're definitely gonna get some Spy, cw, NBA Analysis. But we're more than just hoops, and the real conversation is what we actually bring. It's been really, really cool seeing kind of these women just really step into their power off the court and understand that they are basketball, right? And they're not asking for permission. Listen to levels to this with Stroz, Hoops and Tareka Foster brasby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mangesha Teegalar]

I'm Mangesha Teegalar, and I'm back with a new season of my podcast, Skyline Drive. This time, I talk to scientists, biopunks, curmudgeons, blue zoners, super seniors, and Goa's top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. And I get into a bit of trouble along the way.

[Josh Clark]

I'd say probably start bone smashing.

[Chuck Bryant]

That doesn't work.

[Josh Clark]

To make it look more defined. They say it works.

[Rebecca Nagle]

I don't know.

[Mangesha Teegalar]

Listen to Skyline, how to Live Forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rebecca Nagle]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartradio.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck. And Jerry's here too. This is stuff you should know, everybody.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. We're talking about one of the two things Switzerland is known for.

[Chuck Bryant]

What?

[Josh Clark]

It's not the cheese.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, then. Chocolate.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, that's true. Three things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. Cuckoo clocks.

[Josh Clark]

Four things.

[Chuck Bryant]

Beautiful mountains. Five things.

[Josh Clark]

Beautiful people.

[Chuck Bryant]

Roshti.

[Josh Clark]

Six things. Seven things. All right, let's just cut to the chase then. There's a lot. To Switzerland, everybody. And this is just one of myriad things we could talk about, and that is Swiss neutrality. And I think this came to mind because of the recent talks between the United States and Iran. And I knew Switzerland had a role to play there. And I'm like, what the heck is up with that country?

[Chuck Bryant]

Did you say that out loud?

[Josh Clark]

I think I did. And Ruby was like, what country, dad,

[Chuck Bryant]

it's a good idea. Chuck, I had no idea about this, and I'm not sure if I ever would have thought of doing one on this, but it's actually pretty interesting.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And thanks to Livia, I now understand it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And we should say that right before we started recording, Jerry announced that she is the Switzerland of stuff youf should

[Josh Clark]

know Jerry likes to think she is.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, then who would be the Switzerland we have?

[Josh Clark]

No Switzerland.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, okay. Who are you?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm a mix of Turkmenistan and Denmark.

[Narrator (First America Teaser)]

Okay.

[Josh Clark]

All right, great.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that's just where we're going to leave this because let's get back to talking about Switzerland, which is, like you said, known for many things. And this neutrality thing, I had no idea. But it is in stark contrast to how Switzerland used to be during the Middle Ages or medieval times, if you're one of those people who goes to medieval times.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And you know, we should point out, too, Switzerland is not the only neutral country. I think Livia found 20 to 25 basically neutral countries around the world. But Switzerland, it's a real. Like, when you think of neutral countries, I think most people would say Switzerland because they've taken not just neutrality as a stance, but like a really active neutrality and like, hey, come and settle your warring disputes here in our friendly confines or your financial disputes in our friendly confines.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. As a matter of fact, Switzerland is the only country that comes to mind when I think of neutrality. I had honestly no idea that other countries were officially neutral.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Like Ireland is. Did you know that?

[Josh Clark]

No, but I believe it.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. Well, at any rate, yes, they are the standard, the gold standard, the Nazi gold standard of neutral countries.

[Josh Clark]

What a tease.

[Chuck Bryant]

So, like I said, the whole thing kind of. I think it was officially neutral as of, like the 18 teens, right?

[Mangesha Teegalar]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And then 1851, I think, when they formally became a country. But.

[Tareka Foster Brasby]

Right, but.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, but you promised talk of the Middle Ages. And it is interesting that we can go back to the 13th century to kind of see the beginnings of this.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Apparently this is where William Tell comes from too. Did you know that? No, I know shamefully little about William Tell. I was reading. I think it's swissinfo Ch. They're like the English speaking outlet for Switzerland. And this article this guy was writing, he's like, we all know the story of William Tell, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, actually, I don't know anything that you just mentioned.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, agreed. He has a heck of an overture. That's all I know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, apparently so here in the United States, everybody, we're taught that William Tell, like, shot the apple off of his kid's head to show off, like, his skills. Apparently he was forced to do that by some evil Austrian, like overlords who had taken over Switzerland. And William Tell is actually a resistance fighter who helped Switzerland overthrow those Austrian overlords.

[Josh Clark]

Fantastic.

[Chuck Bryant]

But he comes out of this time. Right. So Switzerland, like you said, until the 1850s or 60s, was a confederation. It's still known as the Swiss Confederation of Cantons, which would be like states, provinces, maybe counties, but they're independent little municipalities that all together form Switzerland or the Swiss Confederation. And that's where the whole thing starts. Back in 1291, there was an alliance between three of these cantons. Now there's like 25 Uri Schwitz. Schweitz maybe, and Unterwalden. Walden.

[Josh Clark]

Walden, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And they formed the Waldstadt Alliance.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, Shtet. Waldstedt Alliance, I would say. I think. I don't know if the east pronounced the name. You speak German Well, I know that gives you a certain thrill, but I think the umlaut would make it stet.

[Chuck Bryant]

Say it again. Say the whole thing.

[Josh Clark]

The Waldstedt alliance.

[Chuck Bryant]

Very nice.

[Josh Clark]

These were basically free peasants at the time. And they, you know, partially the reason this all goes down is because of their location in the Alps, kind of isolated from a lot of Europe. And so they were isolated, isolated, these free peasants from a lot of the feudal hierarchies all over Europe. And they were like in a good geographic position because they were there in those mountain passes with Italy to the south and German speaking peoples to the north. And so they were there as like, hey, we're kind of here in the middle. So that kind of started the whole thing of like, hey, everyone wants to get along with them because they needed them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. They've from time to time served as a very useful buffer which has helped other outside nations support their bid for neutrality. Right. And just to be left alone. And at the same time, that isolation, like you said, from time to time, some of their neighbors would break it and try to basically take over Switzerland and would to varying successes from time to time, like I said. But the isolation and the fact that they were mostly independent made Switzerland, or still to this day, that gave them this fiercely independent streak as a nation that they see themselves as, like, it's a different thing. They're a separate thing. They're nothing like a typical nation whatsoever. They're their own thing. And one of the big things, you can almost call it a brand, is their neutrality.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. And when they formed that Volstead alliance, it wasn't the biggest because that had always kind of been the deal with them. So it was really just renewing these ties that had already been around for a long time. But everyone later on would say, oh, actually, that's kind of when Switzerland started coming together as what would later be a country. And then more cantons came aboard, the alliance got a little bigger and started getting referred to as the old Swiss Confederation, not the new one that we have now. And that's when they started becoming like a real kind of piece of the military puzzle that was going on all around them.

[Chuck Bryant]

I'm certain when back in the 13th century, they were confused when people called it the old Swiss Confederation because it was present to them.

[Josh Clark]

They're like, what are you talking about?

[Chuck Bryant]

So it was around this time that the Swiss actually became militarily mighty. The Swiss actually were known for their warlike tendencies and their excellent fighting skills. So much so that as they kind of grew and started to take part in European wars during the medieval era, in the very, very early modern era, apparently Niccolo Machiavelli referred to them as the New Romans. This conquering group of incredibly well trained fighters that were willing to take on the world. Essentially, that's. That was the image of Switzerland. It's like the total opposite of how we view Switzerland today.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, totally. And, you know, they had some pretty decent military upsets leading up to the beginning of the 16th century. And that's when they started to kind of move away from that idea because there were some really big countries and countries getting together and like, forming larger alliances around them. And they were, you know, they were still. Even though they had some military might, they realized they were probably smaller compared to other places that were popping up around them.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

Notably the Holy Roman Empire, of course, France, Spain and Italy kind of all over the place over there, trying to get at least control in the 16th century of the Duchy of Milan. And that's when the Swiss came out and they were like, hey, the different cantons had different ideas on who they should support, which would kind of become a recurring theme of like. Like who they should have allegiance to and not necessarily agreeing. So maybe remaining neutral was the best path of least resistance. I guess. But in this case, at the time, they started out backing France, then switched to the Italians. And then at the Battle of Marignano in 1515, the French kind of kicked their butts, the French and Venetians, and they were like, all right, we lost 10,000 infantry people, so, like, maybe we need to really rethink putting our eggs in baskets of other countries.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, 10,000 was. Half of the entire Swiss military force was killed at this one battle. Yeah. So, yeah, it was a really big deal. So much so that they were like, yeah, this whole war, like, thing is not really working out all of a sudden. Let's explore the idea of being neutral. And it wasn't just that, but from everything I've seen, that battle was a decisive turning point for the mentality among the Swiss about, you know, taking part in European wars. But there were other things that kind of contributed to that decision. One was the Protestant Reformation, because different cantons in different parts of the country supported or were Protestant or were Catholic. Right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And that's a very sticky situation when you're trying to keep these cantons part of a confederation. Right. There's no central government that's telling the cantons, no, you can't do this. No, you can't do that. They're a confederation, essentially. So they're all still quite independent, but they're all still also Swiss. So that in and of itself meant, like, how can you participate in European wars when half of your cantons want to go to war with one another? You know, and the wars out in the rest of Europe are about or between Protestants and Catholics, like, you just can't do that. So the Swiss said, you know what? Let's just stay neutral. And this is a good example of how being neutral has literally kept the country together many times over the years. Like, where they're like, our differences. Our differences of opinion are too great right now among the cantons. So we're just going to not have an opinion officially as a country.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. Another thing that helped was they got a pretty sweet financial deal out of the end of the conflict with France in 1516. That peace treaty gave them access to French markets. I think internally, they were like, I'm not sure if they notice, but we can do business with France now, and we could already do business business with other people. So let's just keep flying under the radar here, financially speaking, because we've got the best of both worlds. So they had no financial incentive to bust up. I almost said bust that move, but that wouldn't be the right term, I don't think.

[Chuck Bryant]

Bust a move on French markets.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. Yeah. So, yes, this is where their business image also started, too. Yeah. This is where the three piece suit was invented in the peace treaty between France and Europe in 1516.

[Josh Clark]

Now, see, here's a great example. I have no idea whether to believe you or not at this point in my life.

[Chuck Bryant]

I don't know whether to believe me or not even.

[Josh Clark]

All right. At least we're aligned.

[Chuck Bryant]

So this is a. I don't know if you're picking up on this, Chuck. This is a time of frequent wars across Europe. And that's the problem when you put authoritarian despots in charge with limitless riches. The elites want to compete among themselves because they want to have the biggest castle or I want to have the most people at my command. I want to torture the most people. Right. And they start competing with each other and they send their own people off to war with one another. It's a great lesson today. It was something to learn from, and it happened a lot during this era.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of threats to kind of break up this neutrality. The Thirty Years War was a big one in 1618, because, again, there were divided sympathies, I guess, within those cantons, because what you talked about, religion, for the most part. And if you got involved in that war as Switzerland, that would have kind of torn apart this confederation that they had worked so hard to keep together.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And so again, they were like, hey, we got to keep a good thing going here. Let's remain neutral. And in 1646, the Swedes were sort of threatening them, and so they're like, well, we need to at least have an army, though, for national defense. Like, we can be neutral, but we can't be rubes.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

So each canton had, like, quotas for troops that they had to supply. And that's when they were like, kind of formed that army for defense purposes, which still exists today.

[Chuck Bryant]

So, yeah, they created an army in 1646. And then two years later, a really big thing happened. It's just enormous. I'm really impressed. There is this guy named Johan Rudolf Vetchstein.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, sounds great.

[Chuck Bryant]

He was the mayor of Basel. Right. And the Thirty Years War came to an end in 1648 through the Peace of Westphalia and Vechtein Stein showed up to the. To the Peace of Westphalia treaty negotiations. He said, I'm glad you guys are doing this. This is fantastic. Keep. Keep up the good work. Also, I want to talk to everybody about Something, even though I'm just the mayor of Basel, I want to make sure that Switzerland is represented here because we're just neutral. And we think that we should no longer be under the thumb of the Holy Roman Empire. We think that we should have recognition as an independent nation. And also we want to be neutral too. And he got it passed through, like he gained recognition from these major powers of Europe that Switzerland was now its own country. Holy Roman Empire. Sorry, you just lost Switzerland.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, that was. I'm not sure how he pulled that off actually at the time, you know,

[Chuck Bryant]

with a lot of chocolate, I'll tell you that.

[Narrator (First America Teaser)]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Cuckoo clocks. So about a hundred years after that, there was another threat to their neutrality. This was 1790s, late 1790s, when the French Revolutionary Republic and Austria and Russia were going at it, and they kind of eked that battle into Switzerland some. And I think after that victory, that was like 1798, close to 1800, the French government created the Helvetic Republic, a sister nation, and that covered a lot of Switzerland.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they basically said, oh, we just happened to create this country that just is within the borders of Switzerland. Sorry, Switzerland.

[Josh Clark]

Some overlap there, guys.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they basically turned it into a territory. And this is pretty much par for the course for Napoleon. He really kind of sealed the deal when he sent an army to occupy Switzerland, I guess, to protect his new made up country of Helvetic, I want to say Helvetica, so bad, but he essentially plundered Switzerland for the next decade in resources and humans. And actually, when he invaded Russia in 1812, he brought some Swiss troops with him, and they did not do very well there.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they sent 9,000 troops and 700. Only 700 came home. The tide finally turned against Napoleon. And so they were like, all right, thank God we got rid of this guy. And so after the Battle of Leipzig In, I believe, 1813, they were like, all right, we're back to being neutral again. We do have our military force, but we're not gonna fight anymore. And in fact, In December of 1813, when the Austrian Imperial army was like, all right, we want to march through your country to go to France. They're like, fine, go right ahead. We'll just let you do that.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they just turned their backs and whistled. So one other thing happened. There was another. Another guy named Charles Pictet de Rochemont. And also in 1813, during the. The peace treaty that ended, well, Napoleon's reign, I guess essentially he showed up and he said, also, we want to make sure that we're still getting recognized. We're now the Swiss Confederation. And everyone said, you mean the old Swiss Confederation? And de Rochemont said, no, no, no, this is brand new. It's a new Swiss Confederation. You guys are going to love it. And he was first just the mayor of Geneva, which was actually a city state, independent city state, part of a canton now. And I guess he did such a good job that he ended up representing Switzerland as a whole. And this is where their. Their perpetual neutrality was established at the 1814 Congress of Vienna.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that's right. And that was it. I mean, people generally look back to 1815 as, like, that's when everything really officially kind of started. When they became a unified Federal State in 1848 was when the final stamp was stamped.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. So now we reach the point where modern Switzerland is born and it is officially neutral. It's a sovereign nation, but it's still a confederation. Don't forget that.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. And that is where we're going to take a break, and we'll be right back with more Swiss neutrality right after this.

[Narrator (First America Teaser)]

The Declaration, which is full of these beautifully rendered sentences and paragraphs about Enlightenment ideals, does also have this darker history to it.

[Rebecca Nagle]

Why is it important for the darker part of the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution? Why is it important that Americans know about it?

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Well, if we don't understand the full context in which our nation was founded, we won't understand the full context in which our nation now finds itself.

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I'm Rebecca Nagle. Gohin Tawa Don Jaleka Yetli Que la citizen of Cherokee Nation.

[Chuck Bryant]

Are you guys big Chiefs fans? Hell, yeah.

[Rebecca Nagle]

This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Nadif Haffrey]

Thirty years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City.

[Narrator (Revisionist History Teaser)]

Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? Who will you trust? The people five miles overseas.

[Ben Nadif Haffrey]

This is a story about neighbors turning on each other and what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough.

[Josh Clark]

We reached for a feeling that exists in this city, but we're not stopping, are we?

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I'm Ben Nadif Haffrey, and for my new series on revisionist history, I took a deep dive into Staten Island's attempt to secede from New York city in the 1990s, and what it all has to do with the politics of resentment that dominate America today. Listen to revisionist history. The Staten island problem on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Josh Clark]

Stuff you should know.

[Chuck Bryant]

So, Chuck, we're in Switzerland now. It's a nicest established country and part of.

[Josh Clark]

Lovely.

[Chuck Bryant]

It is very lovely. Part of what you said it needs and should have is a military for defense. And still today it has a military. In fact, I believe this month the military assembled like 4,000 troops along the border to basically just keep any of the ne' er do Wells at the G7 summit spilling over. Cause the G7 summit's in France right now.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

But their, I guess, military presence dates back, I mean, much further, obviously. But the modern version of it is from, like the 19th century, I think.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And, you know, they have to abide by certain rules that have happened since then, like the Hague Convention of 1907 if you're a neutral country, which I guess there's like 23 or so now that we've learned that they can't fight in a war, they can't support any other country's warring parties, they can't send them weapons like most other countries do. They can't send money to help out in a war. They can't say, hey, we'll host a base here, or your foreign troops can stay here for a little while. So they have to remain truly neutral under the Hague Convention, which they were. I'm sure they were quite delighted to make it official. But they. Again, they've maintained that army because they have to have their own defense. And also, we should point out that the Swiss army knife kind of came around in the 19th century, the 1880s. It's like a literal. You know, if you didn't think the Swiss had an army, they had a knife named after them. Yeah, of course they had an army for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

And I mean, it really is the Swiss army knife. They just call it the army knife, I'm guessing in Switzerland. But everyone.

[Josh Clark]

Old army knife.

[Chuck Bryant]

Swiss army knife, yeah. Like the cake roll.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, God, I forgot about the cake roll. That's another thing.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, well, I don't Know that they know that Little Debbie is putting their. Their name on its cake rolls, because I think they would have a problem with that. Yeah, yeah, look it up, Switzerland, you're not going to be happy. So World War I was a threat. Obviously, all of Europe was fighting, but I don't believe Switzerland was drawn into it much. World War II was a much greater threat. They had to work much harder to stay neutral and to keep the other countries out. And when Germany occupied France, all of a sudden Switzerland was surrounded by the Axis. And it was a very nervous time. And they managed to. To amass an army of, I think, 400,000 troops in the Alps. And they let everybody know, we're staying neutral, but if you come here, we're going to beat you badly. And it generally worked. I saw that they were accidentally bombed several times that other powers basically said, oh, we didn't mean to bomb you, Sorry, but, you know, we killed a bunch of your people. But for the most part, you know, it worked in that they. They were never invaded by anyone.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. Just because you're neutral doesn't mean that you're not taking part in anything to do with the war. So, as you'll see, we'll talk about a little later. They have a long tradition of receiving refugees, like war refugees, but kind of shamefully, like the US And a lot of other places in the aftermath or During World War II, they. They prevented a lot of Jewish people from the Holocaust from finding refuge there. So that's one of the sort of dark spots.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure. And then still today, if you are a man between ages 18 and 34, you have to enlist in the military. Or if you're a conscientious objector and say, I'm not carrying a gun around, you can also. There's civilian services you can enlist in. And then if you're a woman, you can also do it, but it's voluntary. You're not required to. And I think Today they have 150,000 active and reserve troops. And just like back in the day, each canton has to fulfill a quota and they have their own civilian defense forces.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. Which is, you know, it would be foolish not to at this point in world history, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

So, yeah, there's still a military, despite the fact that they're neutral. I feel like we've managed to drive that point home.

[Josh Clark]

That's the stuff you should know. So this whole idea that we mentioned kind of early on as Switzerland taking an active role in neutrality and not just being like, hey, just Leave us alone.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

Where they're like, we will host your dealings with one another and we become a center of arbitration for the world, basically. That started out basically in the mid 19th century. The Geneva and Basel chambers of commerce said, hey, let's get a system together and let's make this like, let's get serious about this and put some structure around what we want to do. And they got their first stab at that, I guess in 1872 when it was around the Civil War, when negotiators from the United States and Great Britain went to Geneva and worked out what were called the Alabama claims, which were about losses caused by these British built Confederate ships, one of which was the Alabama during the Civil War. Britain ended up having to pay damages there. And that started the whole system of like saying, hey, Geneva's pretty nice, you guys, we're pretty chill. And why don't you just come here to settle your disputes in our courtroom? The People's Court.

[Mangesha Teegalar]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And then the bongo job started.

[Chuck Bryant]

I did not see Alabama coming up in an episode on Swiss neutrality, did you?

[Josh Clark]

I did not either.

[Chuck Bryant]

So since then, like you said, they literally wrote the rules on arbitration. And since then, like, they have had some pretty high profile arbitration meetings. So much so that they eventually worked what are called the good offices, which are everything from like a meeting place to mediation services for arbitration. It's worked into the Swiss franchise federal constitution. So they, they like that's a huge part of Switzerland maintaining its neutrality is saying, like, come take advantage of our neutral territory. Like, this is a, a place where you can meet and work out your differences. Let's all just work out our differences. Guy and I saw Chuck one other thing that they do which is really surprising. They represent the interests of countries who are not speaking to each other. So I think that they represent Iran and Canada. So let's say Iran's like, we're not even talking to you Canada anymore. We're going to get Switzerland to meet with you. We're not even going to be in the same room with you. They do that for several different countries.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I mean, they provide a service. I wonder what kind of like, do they charge a fee for this?

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, I'm sure that there's fees involved.

[Josh Clark]

Sure. Even if it's just like, you know, the hotels in Geneva are very overpriced.

[Chuck Bryant]

Dude, I'll bet you they're like, coffee service at these meetings and conferences are amazing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. I mean, because they got to get something out of it besides neutrality.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure. So I, you know, I knew, like, the Swiss were known for being very businesslike. I did not realize the extent that that is true. I believe that the Swiss mentality is generally like, yes, it's business. We conduct our business appropriately, fairly. Like, we are really good at it. We have good contracts. Like, we are really business like. And that. That is, like, yes, that they are probably getting something for all of the services that they're providing, because that's business.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I bet. You're absolutely right. They're also known for their real push toward humanitarian aid all around the world, especially during times of conflict. Like, no less than the Red Cross, still based in Geneva. And if you look at their symbol, it's the inverse of the Swiss flag. And that's no accident. But that all started out because of a Genevan Businessman named he. Henry Dunant.

[Chuck Bryant]

St. Henry.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. For real. In 1859, he was in Solferino, a town in the north of Italy. He was there for work. And he saw the aftermath of a battle between French and Austria and saw, like, 40,000 dead and wounded soldiers all about him. And it really, really moved him and put a dent in his psyche, I think, because he got personally involved, started helping out locals, started providing medical assistance, dressing wounds, like, you know, literally himself doing this, and spoke to French officials, was like, hey, you got a bunch of Austrian surgeons who are POWs. Like, let them out and let them help their own people and let them help your people. And it moved him to the point where he kind of dedicated his life to it. He wrote a book called A Memory of Solferino and talked about these experiences and the creation of these committees that would train volunteers. And that's the stuff that would become the first national Red Cross society.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. If you're like, okay, that's pretty impressive. Well, prepare for this one, too. You've heard of the Geneva Convention of the treatment of prisoners of war?

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, that was his work. He started arguing and lobbying for some sort of international agreements on how to treat the sick and the wounded and the prisoners of war. And that became the first Geneva Convention in 1864.

[Josh Clark]

Pretty great. And the YMCA that you know and love, he didn't create the YMCA, but do not really made it a global. A global movement. And the World alliance of the YMCA is also still in Geneva.

[Chuck Bryant]

So two things. When I hear ymca, I obviously think Village People. But I also think of this great moment from a Simpsons episode where Lionel Hutz is staying there at the ymca. And he's asleep, sitting down with his back up against the wall, his knees pulled up to his chest and his elbows on his knees and his head down. So you can imagine. And I think, Barton, Lisa, walk up and wake him up. And he suddenly comes awake and he hasn't. He brandishes a knife and he says, don't touch my stuff. Like that's. He was staying at the ymca. Like, that was his experience there. That's pretty good.

[Josh Clark]

I love it. Oh, man. Lionel Hutz was the best.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes, he was. So if you're like, okay, still, Dunant's impressive, but he was probably also just some crazy billionaire who just wanted to make a good name for himself. Wrong. As a matter of fact, all of his humanitarian work that he focused on led to him becoming bankrupt. He wasn't paying enough attention to his business, and so he lost his business, became bankrupt, and essentially unknown for a couple of decades until 1895. There was a journalist who's like, oh, my God, this guy. I know this guy. And he's living, like, obscurely in poverty. I need to let everybody know about him. And he was one of the co recipients of the first Nobel peace Prize in 1901. Quite rightfully so. But this guy was seriously, legitimately a good person.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, we've seen. That's kind of one of my favorite things. We've seen it happen quite a bit in history where someone has done great things, but we're sort of lost to history. And then some journalist or somebody or historian dug them up. Well, not literally, but, you know, dug up their legacy and brushed it off and said, hey, how about this awesome person that we kind of forgot about?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's nice when they're still alive, too, so they can get the recognition. And maybe you're like, okay, I'll bet he owned slaves or something like that. Nope. He was agitating for the abolition of slavery. Or he was a gun nut. Nope. Agitating for disarmament. Like, he was a humanitarian. If there was ever a humanitarian.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. All right, I'd say we take another break. Is that good?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I think we're at a good break. Let's all just think about how great Henry Dunant is.

[Josh Clark]

All right, let's spend a few moments doing that, and we'll be right back.

[Narrator (First America Teaser)]

The Declaration, which is full of these beautifully rendered, you know, sentences and paragraphs about Enlightenment ideals, does also have this

[Josh Clark]

darker history to it.

[Rebecca Nagle]

Why is it important for the darker part of the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolution? Why is it important that Americans know about it?

[Narrator (First America Teaser)]

Well, if we don't understand the full context in which our nation was founded, we won't understand the full context in which our nation now finds itself.

[Rebecca Nagle]

I'm Rebecca Nagle. Gohin Tawadon Jalecayetli Gay la citizen of Cherokee Nation.

[Chuck Bryant]

Are you guys big Chiefs fans? Hell, yeah.

[Rebecca Nagle]

This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment. Listen to First America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben Nadif Haffrey]

Thirty years ago, an island off Manhattan almost brought down New York City.

[Narrator (Revisionist History Teaser)]

Who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors? Who will you trust? The people five miles overseas.

[Ben Nadif Haffrey]

This is a story about neighbors turning on each other and what happens when a forgotten place decides it's had enough.

[Josh Clark]

We reached for a feeling that exists in this city, but we're not stopping, are we?

[Ben Nadif Haffrey]

I'm Ben Nadifafry, and for my new series on revisionist history, I took a deep dive into Staten Island's attempt to secede from New York city in the 1990s, and what it all has to do with the politics of resentment that dominate America today. Listen to Revisionist the Staten island problem on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator (Love Has No Labels Ad)]

At concerts, we dance to the same tune. At games, we hug total strangers. And yet, in these moments, there's also something we don't do. We don't act based on how they look, who they love, where they're from, or what they believe. We just act because the things that make us different will never change what makes us human. Go to lovehasnolabels.com to learn more. Brought to you by Love has no Labels and the Eye Counsel.

[Josh Clark]

Stuff you should know. All right. I dwelled on the. On the life of Henry Dunant, and I feel even better than I did a few minutes ago.

[Chuck Bryant]

Same.

[Josh Clark]

But we're going to move on and talk a little bit about some of the. You know, it's not all I talked about, you know, one sort of darkness in that they didn't allow Jewish refugees en masse during World War II. There's some other stuff that they have on their record that's not the greatest in the world. I guess we should talk about Nazi gold a little bit, but in order to talk about that, we should probably talk a little bit about just their. You talked about them being brilliant business people and a center for business around the world. That happened because after they became formally neutral in 1815, they said, you know what? This is probably a good place for people to put their money because we're neutral, it's safe. Anytime there's a lot of chaos around the world, like with world wars, everyone knows that they can come here and do some banking. We may not be like a world banking center by the likes of London or Berlin, but we can become pretty quietly powerful in our own way. Especially if we tell everyone that all their business will be super private, if you know what I'm saying.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, they put an emphasis on that kind of thing where, like, if you open an account in Switzerland for decades and decades, most of the 20th century, in fact, if not longer, you could have a secret bank account where, like, nobody could really figure it out. And that's. It's not fully true. Like, I think if, say, the US Government came with a subpoena to find out who the owner was of a specific account, the Swiss would cooperate with them. But for the most part, this was secret stuff. Right? And that was how they made their name as an international banking center, but also because, like, again, they are really, really good at business. So you knew that this was like, your money was safe, not just because Switzerland was stable, but because their banking system was incredibly stable. So a lot of people took advantage of that. Dictators, money launderers, eventually drug dealers, terrorists, basically, anyone. Jackie Chan, anyone you can think of who wanted to evade taxes, launder money, or just wanted to have their money stashed away, you know, quietly, and weren't really breaking any laws. You went to Switzerland, like, it's. It's almost a trope, I think.

[Josh Clark]

It is a trope.

[Chuck Bryant]

This. The secret Swiss bank account that you would have money transferred to.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, yeah. That officially became official with the Federal Banking act of 1934, to the utter delight of screenwriters everywhere then and to come. But that unfortunately dried up in the 1990s when they were like, all right, no more secret accounts. I guess we gotta get rid of that provision. But yeah, it worked its way into a lot of movies over the years. Just like a numbered Swiss bank account that's growing up with especially, like, Cold War movies and stuff like that, spy thrillers, there was always, like, a secret Swiss bank account. I feel like, at play.

[Chuck Bryant]

They ended up removing that ability from the Swiss banking system because it started to come out just how. How many bad guys, right, were using it, were in Switzerland, was allowing it to happen. So their banking system took a hit. You know, it's image did. And they're like, we can't afford to do that. We're not making enough money off of drug Dealers and terrorists, we need to, you know, brush our image back up. So that's when they got rid of that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And their image probably needed a little brushing up because, you know, I think I mentioned something about Nazi gold, or if I didn't, I'm mentioning it for the first time now. But they, because of World War II, they, the Swiss National bank ended up buying about $440 million in Nazi gold, which was basically laundering that gold that was plundered that we talked about a lot of times, like the plundering of World War II of the Germans from different countries, brutally. From Holocaust victims. I know we've mentioned stuff like gold, dental fillings and stuff.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that was real.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. From Jewish concentration camp victims. And so it's not a good look for the Swiss national bank to be holding onto this stuff. So later, with the Washington Agreement of 1946, they were made to return, well, at least some of that Nazi gold. Not much of it, only about 12% of it, supposedly to its rightful owners. And that's, you know, they ended up using it for other stuff too, though. They used it sometimes as funds to repay citizens of Switzerland who had seized property by communist regimes in Europe. So they were like, hey, maybe we'll use some of this Nazi gold to repay our own coffers.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And you said that they basically laundered it. They 100% laundered this. So the Nazis showed up with literally tons and tons of gold, hundreds of tons of gold that was stolen from other countries, gave it to Switzerland. Switzerland gave the Nazi regime money, lots and lots of money in return. And then Switzerland turned around and took that gold and sold it to Spain and Portugal. So they fenced stolen gold for the Nazis and gave the Nazis money in return. It's as simple as that. People didn't know this until the 1990s when Switzerland was sued by a few organizations, including the World Jewish Congress. That was bad enough. So this is coming out at the same time that the secret account stuff is coming out too. So Switzerland's taking like one, two punches. Haymakers, rope a dopes, even left and right. And then on top of that, even worse, you said that they were returning 12% of the Nazi gold to its rightful owners as part of the Washington Agreement of 1946. Well, a lot of people who were fleeing Germany or fleeing the Nazi regime or fleeing the Holocaust, but wanted to kind of keep their valuables in a safe place, went to Switzerland to. To put money in bank accounts, put valuable items in safe deposit boxes, and after the War ended, their heirs would show up and say, you know, my grandpa or my dad or somebody put this, you know, this family heirloom, this Hope diamond, in a safe deposit box in your bank, and I'm here to claim it. Here's all the documentation that I'm their rightful heir. And they would say, all of your papers look like they're in order to. But I don't see a death certificate. And the heir would say, well, my father or grandpa or whatever died in a concentration camp. The Nazis didn't issue death certificates for that. They kind of wanted to keep it secret. And the Swiss would say, sorry, can't help you. And they did that across the board. So they basically kept hundreds of millions of dollars. Is the accusation of legitimate deposits from legitimate heirs of victims of the Holocaust?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And, well, a lot of times they didn't even have documentation at all, you know, much less death certificates, because that stuff was destroyed in the war. Finally, in 1946, they promised to say, all right, we're going to find these assets of Holocaust victims from people who have no identifiable heirs, and we're going to at least transfer them to a Jewish reconstruction organization. And decades later, they basically concluded that that didn't really happen. And then 1990, I think, was when you said finally fully was exposed and there was a suit from the World Jewish Congress that got a $1.25 billion settlement finally in 1998.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And again, since then, the Swiss have been doing everything they can to kind of rehabilitate their image. But at the same time, they have also shown like they're not ones that just immediately bow to international pressure. The way that you get them is to hit them in their pocketbooks, like threaten their business or their entire banking industry. That's kind of what the pressure from the outside world was doing.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

They seem to have rebounded, largely. There are some other things that make Switzerland peculiar, too, that are much less evil or dark. One is that they really are in a kind of a weird position as far as international groups go. Like, in some ways, like, it makes a lot of sense that they're the host of the International Red Cross headquarters. Geneva is right. But what about the un? Should they be members of the un? The UN does they have, like, peacekeeping troops with guns and stuff like that. What are the ramifications of Switzerland joining the un? And they debated that for decades.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, they finally. I mean, it wasn't until 2002 that they even joined the UN. And like you said, it took a long time to Kind of work out internally whether or not that's something they wanted to do or if that would kind of ruin all those decades and decades of neutrality that they had become known for. There was a referendum that they eventually voted on whether or not to become a member. And advocates said, you know what, if we get involved with them, we can get involved and still like be committed to mediation and humanitarian aid. Like that will be our role within the UN. And it was a pretty close vote. It was 54.6 in favor and 12. Yeah, almost like right at half. 12 out of the 23 cantons voted yes. And then finally in 2023, it became a non permanent member of the UN Security Council.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's those peacekeeping troops.

[Josh Clark]

That's right. And that was another, you know, it was pretty evenly split as well. So like even within the country they've always sort of hedged like whether or not they wanted to support joining up with these world groups, you know.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right, exactly. And for good reason too. I mean, it's tricky stuff. One of the places or one of the groups that they are just roundly rejecting so much so that they basically told the EU like, we're not, we're not negotiating anymore, we're not joining the European Union. And the reason why, they actually have pretty legitimate reasons why, especially if you come at life from a business like attitude, but one is that they would immediately be a net contributor. They would be paying out way more than they were benefiting from being a member of the eu. And the reason why is because they basically have cherry treaties with all of the European countries to do business with them, which is like the attractive thing for a rich country to join the eu. So they have that without being part of the eu, without having to pay into the EU right now. So they have the best of both worlds and a really negative incentive, a number of negative incentives to join the eu.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Another is they just, they really love taking care of their own business, what they would call direct democracy and deciding for them what's best for them. And if you're part of the eu, then obviously you're part of a larger collective and you don't like just individual citizens ability to decide things for themselves and hold those referendums that would go away. And so they're not into that. And also just, you know, they built up this neutral brand over the years and it's not like branding, branding, but it kind of is. And that they don't want to just throw that all away after again, you know, more than 100 years, more than that actually of like being known like, you know, when you think neutral and you think chocolate and you think cuckoo clocks and army knives, you think of Switzerland and they don't want that to go away.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. When you think thirst, you think sprite. When you think neutral, you think of Switzerland.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

There's another thing too. Being a member of the EU means that any member nation or the residents of any member nation of the EU can move to your place unrestricted, as far as I know. So immigration is free throughout the European Union. And Switzerland's like, we actually are pretty strict on immigration and we are worried that if we get a lot of people migrating to Switzerland, the wages in Switzerland are going to start to be decompressed because a lot of people migrating here are willing to accept far less than what the average Swiss person is paid. So yeah, essentially every. They have all these incentives, you know, morally upstanding or not to not join the eu and it does not look like they are ever going to join the eu.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, or NATO, obviously. That's a warring organization for sure. Or not a warring organization, but a military alliance for sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

And for all of its blemishes and rough spots and all that, I hope Switzerland stays Switzerland. You know, it would be a. I think everyone does. I think the world would kind of lose something if. If Switzerland just became like any other country, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Agreed.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, that's Switzerland, Chuck. Swiss neutrality, I should say.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

If you want to know more about Swiss neutrality, travel to Switzerland or watch a documentary on Switzerland. And in the meantime, it's time for listener mail.

[Josh Clark]

This is another MASH follow up. Hey guys, huge MASH fan. I'm a bit older than Chuck and still only 12 when it debuted. It was a perfect blend of comedy and poignant drama showing the horrors of war. I always thought the writing was brilliant and did take characters on a great growth arc. Being a cloud closeted gay kid, now openly and very happy gay man. It was one of the first times that a TV show dealt with the subject of homosexuality in a sympathetic way, even if only on one episode. I was such a fan that I developed a MASH trivia game similar to Trivial Pursuit. And a number of details you mentioned in your episode were part of the game. Like Toledo and Tony Pacos.

[Narrator (Love Has No Labels Ad)]

Nice.

[Josh Clark]

So great job guys. You always do a great job and are so pleasant to listen to on my daily walks and whenever you guys touch on LG TVQ topics, you do an amazing job. As to straight guys. So thank you for that and that is from Dave in Vancouver. And Dave, I hope you're coming to see our live show in Vancouver. Yeah, we can't wait. There's still tickets available for all of the. Well, I guess the first leg will be over by this time, but that second leg in July I believe is probably somewhere around this time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So we'd love to see everyone.

[Chuck Bryant]

Coming up quick, Dave. So yeah, we. We'd love to see you too. You can watch us be two straight guys, live and in person.

[Josh Clark]

That's right.

[Chuck Bryant]

If you want to be like Dave and let us know how much you like us. We really appreciate those kind of emails. Or you can say whatever you like, whatever you have to say, send it off to stuff podcastheartradio.com

[Rebecca Nagle]

stuff youf should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Narrator (Love Has No Labels Ad)]

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.