Detailed Summary of "Who are the Zizians?" Episode on Stuff You Should Know

Podcast Information:

• Title: Stuff You Should Know
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Episode: Who are the Zizians?
• Release Date: June 19, 2025

Introduction

In this gripping true crime episode titled "Who are the Zizians?", hosts Josh Clark and Chuck Bryant delve into the mysterious and sinister group known as the Zizians. The episode navigates through the origins, ideologies, key events, and eventual downfall of this enigmatic cult-like community. With a narrative rich in details and punctuated by notable quotes, the hosts provide an engaging exploration suitable for both true crime aficionados and curious newcomers.

Origins of the Zizians

The story begins with the emergence of the Zizians, a group centered around Ziz, a trans woman recognized as the leader or the most influential member. Ziz, born in 1991 in Fairbanks, Alaska, was a highly intelligent individual with internships at both Oracle and NASA during her time at the University of Fairbanks. Her exceptional academic and professional background attracted like-minded individuals to her cause.

Notable Quote:

Chuck Bryant [02:44]: "And like you said, this is going to be sort of a common thing with everyone who got together with Ziz and the others."

Ziz was deeply influenced by the Rationalist movement, which emphasized logical thinking, questioning biases, and revising beliefs continuously. Central figures in this movement included Eliezer Yudkowski, an AI researcher dedicated to solving the AI alignment problem to prevent potential existential threats posed by artificial intelligence.

Expansion and Ideological Shifts

Ziz's move to the Bay Area marked a significant expansion of her influence. She engaged with organizations like SEFAR and MIRI, focusing on AI safety and effective altruism—using rational thinking to maximize the impact of donations for the greater good.

Notable Quote:

Josh Clark [05:29]: "He dedicated himself to solving the AI alignment problem, which is how do you create an artificial intelligence whose motivations are totally aligned with humans..."

However, Ziz's intense dedication extended beyond rationalist principles to include radical veganism and animal rights. This ideological shift created a rift between her group and the broader rationalist community, laying the groundwork for future conflicts.

Formation of the Rationalist Fleet

Economic pressures in the expensive San Francisco area led Ziz to adopt unconventional living arrangements to minimize costs and maximize time spent on their missions. Initially, Ziz moved in with Gwen Danielson on a sailboat in the Berkeley Marina, but compatibility issues led her to purchase her own sailboat, naming it "Caleb." This vessel became the hub of what was known as the "Rationalist Fleet," which sought to foster a community of highly intelligent, often trans, vegan individuals dedicated to radical causes.

Notable Quote:

Chuck Bryant [07:49]: "And these were the people that she ended up attracting through her blog. There's a really great Guardian article about all of this written by Oliver Conroy..."

Escalation and Isolation from the Rationalist Community

Ziz's group began to diverge significantly from mainstream rationalist principles, adopting more extreme beliefs and behaviors. Their aggressive stance on animal rights and unresolved conflicts within the community, such as accusations against MIRI for handling sexual assault claims improperly, deepened their isolation.

Attempting to voice their grievances, the Zizians disrupted a SEFAR seminar in 2019 by blocking exits with vehicles and presenting their issues, leading to their arrest on charges of false imprisonment and child endangerment. This incident cemented their estrangement from the rationalist community, pushing them further into isolation and extremism.

Notable Quote:

Josh Clark [18:53]: "So now this wedge was a gulf. It was a break in communication between the group that would come to be known as Sizzians and the rationalist community."

Criminal Activities and Key Incidents

The Zizians were implicated in a series of violent acts and mysterious deaths:

1. Curtis Lind's Attack (2022):

   • Curtis Lind, a property owner in Vallejo, California, was brutally attacked by members Alex Letham and Suri Dow, resulting in his severe injuries and the death of Emma Baranian.
   • Lind alleged that Alex Letham stabbed him, whereas the Zizians contended it was an unprovoked attack.

2. Suicides and Disappearances:

   • Following Ziz's sister, Emma Baranian, reporting Ziz missing after a boating accident, Gwen Danielson also died by suicide, further clouding the group's activities.

3. Mass Shootout in Vermont (May 2024):

   • Milo Youngbloot and Maximilian Snyder attempted to assassinate Border Patrol agents, leading to the death of Agent David Malland and Youngbloot's subsequent arrest.

4. Pennsylvania Murders (December 31, 2022):

   • Michelle Zaszko's parents were found murdered in Pennsylvania, leading to suspicions against Michelle and her associate Daniel Blank. Both were later arrested with incriminating evidence found in their possession.

Notable Quotes:

Chuck Bryant [22:30]: "Are there any pictures of you online? I'm not just talking about Google, I'm talking anywhere."

Josh Clark [28:35]: "Now Suri Dow and Alex Letham are in jail in California for the attack on Curtis Lynd and then the murder of Curtis Lind."

Legal Proceedings and Ongoing Investigations

As law enforcement agencies began connecting the dots, the Zizians faced increasing legal challenges. By early 2025:

• Ziz and Michelle Zaszko: Arrested in Maryland for trespassing after being found with illegal firearms. Ziz was later charged with obstruction of justice and disorderly conduct but skipped her trial in December 2023.
• Alex Letham and Suri Dow: Held accountable for the assault on Curtis Lind and the death of Emma Baranian.
• Daniel Blank and Milo Youngbloot: Detained for their roles in violent incidents, with Youngbloot being implicated in an attempted attack on Border Patrol.

Notable Quote:

Chuck Bryant [34:36]: "So the Zizians are still around. Essentially. They still will say, we're not a cult, not even called Zizians."

Current Status and Conclusion

As of mid-2025, the Zizians remain a fragmented yet dangerous group, with several members incarcerated across different states. The group's assets, such as the sailboat "Caleb," have deteriorated, symbolizing the sinking credibility and operational capacity of the Zizians. Despite their reduced presence, remnants of their ideology continue to influence a subset of disenfranchised individuals online.

The hosts conclude by emphasizing the unresolved nature of the case, highlighting ongoing investigations and the potential for future developments. The episode leaves listeners contemplating the complex interplay between ideological extremism, community isolation, and the perilous path toward criminality.

Notable Quote:

Josh Clark [48:57]: "If you want to know more about this stuff, go look it up. There's a lot of stuff to read. And just keep an eye on the news."

Key Takeaways:

• The Zizians originated from the Rationalist movement but diverged into extremist ideologies centered around AI safety, veganism, and animal rights.
• Leadership under Ziz was marked by increasing isolation, radical beliefs, and violent actions.
• A series of violent incidents, legal confrontations, and mysterious deaths point to the dangerous trajectory of the group.
• Legal actions have curtailed much of their activities, but the potential for continued influence and future crimes remains.

Additional Notes:

• The episode intersperses advertisements and other podcast segments, which have been omitted from this summary to maintain focus on the core content.
• Listeners are encouraged to follow ongoing news updates for any new developments related to the Zizians.