WWII Sabotage Spotlight: Operation Gunnerside

Summary

Stuff You Should Know: WWII Sabotage Spotlight: Operation Gunnerside

Episode Release Date: January 14, 2025

Hosts: Chuck Bryant and Josh Clark

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Stuff You Should Know, hosts Chuck Bryant and Josh Clark delve into one of World War II's most daring and impactful sabotage missions: Operation Gunnerside. Despite its critical role in delaying the Nazi atomic bomb project, Operation Gunnerside remains relatively obscure, especially outside of Norway. This episode uncovers the meticulous planning, courageous execution, and enduring legacy of the Norwegian resistance fighters who undertook this high-stakes mission.

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Background: The Race for the Atomic Bomb

Heavy Water and Its Significance

The story begins in 1939 when German physicists discovered that splitting the atom through nuclear fission could release immense energy. This breakthrough sparked a global race to harness nuclear energy, with both the Allies and the Nazis vying to develop atomic bombs. Central to this endeavor was heavy water (deuterium oxide), a crucial moderator in nuclear reactors that slows down neutrons to sustain a controlled nuclear reaction. Unlike regular water (H₂O), heavy water (D₂O) contains deuterium, a hydrogen isotope with an additional neutron, making it significantly heavier.

The Vemork Norsk Plant in Norway

Located in Telemark, Norway, the Vemork Norsk heavy water plant was the world's leading producer of heavy water. Chemist Leif Tronstad spearheaded efforts to maximize production, extracting the scarce heavy water from vast quantities of mountain water, a process both resource-intensive and technologically challenging. As Josh Clark aptly puts it, "[...] they were separating out this 1 in 20 million molecule of heavy water from regular mountain water."

Nazi Occupation of Norway

In April 1940, Nazi Germany invaded Norway, overriding the country's declared neutrality. The occupation led to the establishment of a Nazi-controlled government, prompting widespread resistance among the Norwegian populace. Many Norwegians chose to join the underground resistance, aiming to undermine the Nazi war machine from within. Among them was Leif Tronstad, who recognized the strategic importance of the Vemork plant in thwarting the Nazi atomic ambitions.

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Early Sabotage Efforts: Operation Grouse and Operation Freshman

Operation Grouse: Laying the Groundwork

Chuck Bryant highlights, "Operation Grouse was the initial attempt to establish a foothold in Norway for the upcoming sabotage missions." This operation involved parachuting a team of trained saboteurs into the Norwegian wilderness to set up a base camp and prepare for more extensive missions. However, the team faced severe challenges due to Norway's harsh winter conditions, leading to difficulties in assembling the necessary resources for a successful attack on the heavy water facility.

Operation Freshman: A Costly Misstep

Building upon the groundwork laid by Operation Grouse, the Allies launched Operation Freshman—a mission involving two air gliders carrying 39 British soldiers into Norway. The objective was to provide additional muscle and support to the resistance fighters. Tragically, the mission was a disaster. One glider crashed into a mountain, killing everyone on board, while the other veered off course and crashed upon landing, resulting in the Gestapo capturing and executing the survivors. Moreover, the crash revealed a crucial map indicating the saboteurs' intended target—the Vemork plant. As Josh Clark summarizes, "[...] the Gestapo found the survivors and executed them basically on the spot."

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Operation Gunnerside: The Daring Sabotage Mission

Recruitment and Training of Saboteurs

Undeterred by the failures of previous operations, the Allies sought a more streamlined and effective approach to thwart the Nazi atomic program. Enter Operation Gunnerside—a meticulously planned mission led by Norwegian resistance fighter Jens Anton Poulsen. Recognizing the need for a small, highly skilled team, Poulsen and his comrades underwent rigorous training under the auspices of the Special Operations Executive (SOE), Britain's elite sabotage organization. According to Josh Clark, "They trained saboteurs to operate in extreme weather and challenging terrains, preparing them for the unforgiving Norwegian winters."

Deployment and Journey to Vemork

On February 27, 1943, a team of nine Norwegian saboteurs, including Poulsen and Frederick Kaiser, parachuted into the remote Norwegian countryside. Their mission: infiltrate the heavily guarded Vemork plant and destroy the heavy water production capabilities. Facing treacherous snowy landscapes, the team embarked on a grueling five-day trek, often skiing through isolated regions to reach their target. Chuck Bryant remarks, "They skied about 200 miles, which is like nothing for them."

The Sabotage Operation

Upon reaching the Vemork plant, the team split into smaller groups to maximize efficiency and minimize the risk of total mission failure. Entrenching themselves within the facility, they methodically planted explosives on key infrastructure components. As the tension mounts, with Nazi guards monitoring their every move, the saboteurs prepared to detonate the charges. In a critical moment, Runner Frederik Kaiser compelled a Norwegian watchman to assist by offering chloroform to render him unconscious, ensuring the team's undisturbed execution of the mission.

At exactly 3:30 AM, Poulsen detonated the explosives, not waiting for the two-minute fuse to run out, exemplifying his unwavering commitment: "He said, no, I really want to make sure we hear this thing go off. So we're gonna go down to 30 seconds." Despite their efforts, the explosion was modest, shattering only a window and causing minimal immediate damage. Nevertheless, the strategic impact was profound. Josh Clark notes, "The plant was put out of operation, halting heavy water production and delaying the Nazi atomic bomb project."

Escape and Aftermath

Miraculously, all nine saboteurs evaded capture, escaping into the Norwegian wilderness with remarkable agility. Their successful infiltration and sabotage underscored the effectiveness of the operation, even in the face of tight security and adverse conditions. The mission not only deprived the Nazis of a critical resource but also served as a morale booster for the Allied forces and the Norwegian resistance.

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Subsequent Operations: Further Sabotage and Allied Bombing

Resumption of Heavy Water Production

Despite the success of Operation Gunnerside, the Nazis swiftly endeavored to restore heavy water production. By May 1943, just a few months after the sabotage, the Vemork plant had ramped up operations to full capacity. Recognizing the need for continued interference, the Allies devised additional sabotage missions to ensure the longevity of the heavy water disruption.

Operation Sunshine and Tragic Losses

Leif Tronstad, now an integral figure in the resistance, led Operation Sunshine in October 1944. This mission aimed to protect Norway's industrial assets from remaining Nazi saboteurs as the war drew to a close. Tragically, Tronstad was killed in May 1945 by a collaborator’s brother, underscoring the personal risks undertaken by those involved in the resistance.

Sabotage of the Hydro Ferry

In February 1944, the Norwegian resistance launched another critical operation targeting the ferry Hydro, which was responsible for transporting heavy water shipments to Germany. Under the leadership of Julius Poulsen, the team attached explosive charges to the ferry's bow, successfully sinking the vessel and destroying a significant portion of the heavy water cargo. As Josh Clark explains, "Allied intelligence confirmed that the sabotaged ferry carried heavy water, thereby inflicting a substantial blow to the Nazi atomic program."

This operation resulted in the loss of 14 Norwegian civilians and four German soldiers, a somber reminder of the human cost associated with war efforts. However, the strategic gain was undeniable, crippling the Nazi access to heavy water and further stalling their atomic ambitions.

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Impact and Legacy: Shaping the Course of the War

Delaying the Nazi Atomic Bomb

Chuck Bryant emphasizes the strategic importance of these sabotage missions: "Even in retrospect, not a single bullet was fired and not a single person died in this highly successful, amazingly daring sabotage operation." The cumulative effect of Operation Gunnerside and subsequent missions significantly hindered the Nazis' ability to produce heavy water in sufficient quantities, thereby delaying their atomic bomb project by several crucial months.

Historical Debates and Interpretations

Despite the clear successes of these operations, historians continue to debate the overall impact on the war's outcome. While the official SOE historian, M.R.D. Foot, asserts that these actions "changed the course of the war," others argue that the Nazi atomic program was never as advanced as feared, particularly due to internal scientific miscalculations and the loss of key scientists. For instance, Chuck Bryant points out, "The Nazis regretted pursuing heavy water instead of graphite as a moderator, which was a critical miscalculation."

Representation in Media

Operation Gunnerside has inspired several portrayals in film and television, though often with varying degrees of historical accuracy. The 1965 film The Heroes of Telemark starring Kirk Douglas offers a dramatized account of the mission, blending factual events with fictional elements. More recently, the Norwegian state broadcaster NRK produced the miniseries Heavy Water War in 2015, bringing renewed attention to the operation within Norway and internationally.

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Conclusion

Operation Gunnerside stands as a testament to the courage, ingenuity, and resilience of the Norwegian resistance during one of history's most tumultuous periods. Through meticulous planning and unwavering dedication, the saboteurs successfully crippled the Nazi heavy water production, indirectly contributing to the Allied victory and the shaping of the post-war world. Chuck Bryant and Josh Clark's exploration of this operation not only sheds light on a pivotal yet underappreciated chapter of World War II but also honors the legacy of those who risked their lives for the greater good.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Josh Clark [03:45]: "Nazi atomic bomb was among the most frightening combination of words you could possibly come up with."

• Chuck Bryant [05:10]: "Heavy water is really, really rare. And it takes a long time to get just a little bit of it."

• Josh Clark [09:56]: "Tronstad was like, we've got ammonia tanks there. Liquid ammonia. You're definitely gonna kill a bunch of civilians nearby."

• Chuck Bryant [24:23]: "I love this kind of thing. It's just the kind of thing."

• Josh Clark [31:02]: "Snip, snip. So that paid off pretty quickly."

• Chuck Bryant [37:28]: "That's right. But that is not the end of the story."

• Josh Clark [44:37]: "The Nazis regretted pursuing heavy water instead of graphite as a moderator."

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Acknowledgments

A special thanks to Matthew Maimault Bouchard for recommending Operation Gunnerside as a topic, ensuring that Stuff You Should Know continues to explore and illuminate the lesser-known yet profoundly impactful events of history.

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For more insightful episodes and detailed explorations of fascinating topics, subscribe to Stuff You Should Know on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

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[Jon Stewart]

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[Chuck Bryant]

Welcome to Stuff youf Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck. And Jerry's here, too. And I guess it's a new year because I just had the spirit of John Strickland pass through me when I welcomed everybod. Did you hear that? Enthusiastic.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, yeah, a little bit of a. Well, not a coa, I guess, just sort of updating is this is our first recording of the new year and we had our longest break ever. You know, I think everyone knows we take a nice long Christmas break, but this year it stretched into November, and so we've been gone for a long time. And I'm like, do I even know how to do this anymore?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, same here. I keep making this sound whenever I move.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, don't do that.

[Josh Clark]

I can't help it. It's just. I'm that rusty.

[Chuck Bryant]

And also, this topic, it's good, but we'll try and keep it as streamlined and easy to understand as possible. There's a lot of moving pieces.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

And there's a lot of Norwegian names that we've. I still don't know how to say the letter with, like, the null set.

[Josh Clark]

I think it's like a.

[Chuck Bryant]

Is it okay? I mean, I'm gonna treat them as umlauts.

[Josh Clark]

I'm pretty sure it's the same thing as an Umlaut.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. Okay. We're still gonna screw up some of this, but don't worry about the names too much. You know, we should just name everyone, you know, Bill one, Bill two, Bill three.

[Josh Clark]

Right. Or Leaf T.

[Chuck Bryant]

But anyway, we're gonna give it our best go. Welcome back, my friend. I'm glad to be back in the studio after this wonderful break.

[Josh Clark]

Same here, man. Same here. Welcome back yourself. So, yeah, we're talking today about one of the more unsung operations of World War II. Unsung, I guess, depending on where you live. If you live in Norway, it's sung all over the place. It's like a top 40 hit there. It sunk so much.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, it is now. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It took a little while, didn't it? Weirdly, yeah. But here in the US we don't know about it as much because we were kind of tangential to it, if at all. It was more a joint operation between the Brits and the Norwegians. The Norwegian resistance, we should say. And the whole thing is called Operation Gunnerside. And I have to say I want to give a big thanks to one of our listeners, Matthew Maimault Bouchard, who suggested this one, I think, back in November.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, wow.

[Josh Clark]

And it went right to the top of the list. So here we are talking about it now in January.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I'm sure you got that email, and you're like, unsung saboteur story, defeating the Nazis. Be still my heart.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So the whole thing kind of starts off, I think, back in, like, 1939, when some German physicists figured out that you could split the atom through fission and release a bunch of energy. And very, very quickly after that, the physicists around the world were like, this is really great. We can come up with a whole new source of energy for it. This could also be an extremely dangerous weapon. And right after that, World War II started, and the Allies started working on the bomb, and they assumed that the Nazis were also working on a bomb. So that's kind of like the mentality that was going on with this story really starts.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I mean, it was sort of a race to see who could get there first. And, I mean, I learned a lot researching this. I didn't know a lot about a lot of this stuff, even though we've done episodes about nuclear fission and the like. But there's more than one way to skin a cat, as it turns out, if you want to try and make a reaction big enough to cause a big boom. And one of the routes that was taken by, well, not the Americans, I guess the Germans were trying to take this route, was to use something called heavy water. AKA, how would you say that? Deuterium oxide.

[Josh Clark]

Mm.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay. D2O, which is like H2O. It's like regular water, this heavy water is. Except instead of a normal hydrogen atom there, as in H2O, that is now replaced by a hydrogen isotope, deuterium, which makes it literally heavier.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And the reason why is because deuterium has a neutron where hydrogen doesn't. That's the only difference. I mean, it's still. You could cook with it, you could bathe in it. You probably wouldn't really notice any difference because it's two atomic units heavier. So it's not like you would, like, be crushed down to the shower floor if you had it running through your house or anything.

[Chuck Bryant]

Or water balloon fight, kid. That kid's using heavy water.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. Giving kids black eyes at that thing. Yeah. So. But the reason that it was useful or is useful still in nuclear reactions is because of that neutron that it has. Right. So when you carry out a nuclear reaction that produces an explosion, you have an uncontrolled nuclear reaction. That's the one that. Where it just goes kaboom. And a huge amount of energy is released at once.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's the whole point.

[Josh Clark]

Yes, for the bomb part, but to make the stuff that actually blows up, usually plutonium, you have to carry out controlled nuclear reactions. And to make it controlled, to kind of bring some order to the chaos and slow things down just enough that it will never explode, yet it will still produce energy that you can use to create plutonium. If you bash uranium with a bunch of neutrons, you add a moderator. And heavy water is a moderator because all those fast neutrons bouncing around will knock into the heavy water, and it will transfer energy to the heavy water's neutrons, but it slows the process down. In the same way, you couldn't use regular water, because regular water would be like, oh, thanks for the freedom, neutron jump, and turn into heavy water, I guess. So regular water wouldn't work. Heavy water would work. The problem is, is heavy water is really, really rare.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it's super rare. And it takes a long time to get just a little bit of it. I think it's like, if you're just looking at a regular water source, there's one deuterium oxide molecule for about every 20 million regular ones. So it's not needle in a haystack territory, molecularly speaking, but it's not far off. The Germans went the route of heavy water as their moderator. The Americans looked around for a moderator and they said, what about Josh Clark? He's a pretty level headed guy.

[Josh Clark]

I just show up with my note cards and a blazer.

[Chuck Bryant]

By the way, our first sidetrack of the year. I reminded Ruby last night that we had a TV show for the probably 15th time in her life. And she was like, you did? And we tried again and actually watched an entire episode.

[Josh Clark]

Which one?

[Chuck Bryant]

We watched the one with John Hodgman and also starring my neighbor Katherine, which was the final episode. How we wrote it, but not the final episode and how it aired.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

We won't get into that. But I have to say, dude, you were like, pretty good in a lot of that as an actor, and I was not.

[Josh Clark]

I disagree. You're always so hard on yourself. You were great, man. You were at least as good as I was. And that's to say you were middling.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think you're. It's very nice of you to say, but, like, from an. I think I had a real, like, outside point of view last night. And I was like, you know, Josh was pretty good in a lot of this. And Emily said he really was. And I said, I never felt that comfortable and like I was doing a good job. Like, every once in a while I was okay. But I felt. And I think you had real possibilities as an actor.

[Josh Clark]

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It was probably from my year spin as an emojis drama kid.

[Chuck Bryant]

It was pretty good.

[Josh Clark]

Thanks.

[Chuck Bryant]

And Ruby made it through the episode and I was like, hey, that's our neighbor. And that's John. You know, John. So that I think, you know, helped hold our interest a little bit more.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, that was like the space one, right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a good one. It was pretty good. So long way of saying you were not available as moderator because you weren't born yet. So the US ended up pursuing graphite as a moderator. Either one can be used. We went graphite. The Germans. I guess we'll get to the reason they went with hard water toward the end, right?

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

And tag that in the end.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I think so.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so anyway, hard water is what they're after. And as it turns out, there was a chemist in Norway named Leif Tronstad.

[Josh Clark]

Leaf tea.

[Chuck Bryant]

Leaf tea. Yeah, exactly. Who was. Who understood how to find these molecules in the best way possible. Because he was doing it for a different reason there. Right?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So Tronstad was one of these early people who was like, hey, this is weird and different and new and we can figure out how to get at least very small amounts of it. And there's gotta be some cool uses for this, like scientific, non weapony uses. And one of the ones that he thought of very early on was use it as a tracer, which I guess you give somebody a glass of heavy water and then, you know, look at their kidneys and see if there's heavy water coming out of them and be like, well, there's your leak.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

That'S what I think.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, exactly. So that's why he was pursuing it. And he was doing that for a company called Vemork Norsk. Not Norsed or Norse Norsk with a K. Hydro plant. And that was in the county of, of course, Telemark.

[Josh Clark]

Right. In the country of, I guess, Norway. Right, sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

You got a word like Norsk in front of you, you're talking Norway.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So he's at work producing a few milliliters of that. What, like every day or so?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, from like liters and liters and gallons of water. They would just get the tiniest amounts because I still don't quite understand how they were doing it, but essentially they were separating out this 1 in 20 million molecule of heavy water from regular mountain water.

[Chuck Bryant]

Norse black magic.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And so like the whole plant was originally a hydroelectric power plant. And then they converted to using electrolysis to, I think, create ammonia, which is very handy in fertilizers and explosives. And then it was Tronstadt who was like, we need to set up basically a separate heavy water operation. So by the time World War II broke out, the plant at Vermork. I'm pretty sure I said that right. Wehrmark and Vermindi. Vermork and Mindy. Vermork and Vermin. I got it. Okay. It just took a second. I was like, well, I'm going to laugh at it.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, I was making sure I didn't screw something else up. Sorry. That's a quality joke.

[Josh Clark]

Thank you. By that time, that plant was the world leader in heavy water production.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. All right, so park that to the side. They're producing heavy water at a rate no one had ever seen. Like a cup full a day. And World War II begins in 1939. And like I said, the Germans were like, hey, we should try and get on this heavy water train. And they didn't. That's not why they invaded Norway. They invaded Norway because they were Nazis. Norway was neutral. Had declared themselves neutral. But In April of 1940, they invaded anyway and were defeated. Pretty quickly. It took a couple of months. Even though they had help from the Allies, they were no match for the German army. And the Germans did as they do. They established a Nazi government there. And the people did not like that because they're Norwegian. They were like, no, no, no, we're gonna resist. They went on strike here and there. They didn't cooperate in other ways to kind of just, you know, get in the way of progress, of Nazi progress. And so the Nazi says, all right, martial law has been declared. If you resist, you will be put to death. And so a lot of Norwegians left obviously fought from other places. And a lot of them said, you know what? We're going to stay here and maybe work with the Allies kind of undercover. As moles.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. As, like, a secret resistance. Right. And one of those people was Tronstad. At least at first. And then it became clear that he basically needed to get out of Dodge, so he ditched and went to. I think he went straight to the UK because after the Nazis set up this program like it was. It was not a pleasant place to be when they took over Norway. And the whole thing. Chuck reminded me of. Do you remember way, way, way early in the podcast, we stumbled upon Simo Haye, the White Death, the Finnish sniper who was just like a farm boy who, like, I think, killed more Russians than anybody else in the war. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Remind you of that guy?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I just remembered Simo Hayha, so I thought I'd give him a shout out.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. But I'm surprised you called up that name. Nice work.

[Josh Clark]

So, but Leif Tronstad, he became, like, a really valuable asset because this guy is, like, the world leader in heavy water production.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

Who has all of the inside dirt on the place where the most heavy water is being produced. And it's very clear now that the Nazis have taken over this plant and stepped it up from like, a few milliliters a day to, like, I think, a few kilograms of heavy water a day, that they have designs on making an atomic bomb. And with the Allies, the three words, Nazi atomic bomb was among the most frightening combination of words you could possibly come up with.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And even today, you know, you're like, God, a Nazi atomic bomb? That'd be horrible. And then you remember, oh, yeah, the Americans dropped two atomic bombs on population centers. And that was pretty bad, too. Yet still somehow Nazi atomic bomb seems even worse.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it does. So he, like you said, went to the uk. There he met up in real life with the intelligence people he had been working with. You know, on the down low from a long distance, which I imagine was a pretty fun meeting.

[Josh Clark]

Sure.

[Chuck Bryant]

They probably had some tea and caught up in person. And he started training these commando units to be saboteurs to eventually do their saboteur work in Norway. And the whole time was staying in contact with his allies at the plant there at Vemork. And eventually. And we're just gonna say these names again, I wish we could all nickname them all to make it easier to keep up with. But one of the guys there that he kept in touch with who will play a part in this story, is named Einar Skinnerland. That's pretty easy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Swallow Blue was his codename. And that feels like a pretty good place for a break.

[Josh Clark]

I think it is, yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so we do remember how to do this. And we'll be right back right after this. Wanna learn about a pterosaur and call a pterodactyl how to take a perfect boob and all about fractals, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, the Lizzie Border murders, and the Cannonball runs. Don't explain everything to your brain, Explode. Just Chuck and Jaw should know. Word up.

[Jon Stewart]

Jerry, catch Jon Stewart back in action on the Daily show and in your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondence and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcasting, like in depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Clark]

Chuck, have you seen that movie, the Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare? It's like a newish Guy Ritchie movie. No, it's pretty good, actually.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right.

[Josh Clark]

It's like an easy watch. Like there's. It's not some big, huge sweeping epic or something you have to really, you know, keep up with. It's just a kind of an interview.

[Chuck Bryant]

Guy Ritchie movie.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would call Snatch kind of convoluted.

[Chuck Bryant]

Okay, well, sure, with the accents, sure.

[Josh Clark]

But there actually was something called the Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare. That was the nickname for it. It was called the Special Operations Executive, officially. And they basically trained saboteurs. So that's who Leif Tronstad threw his lot in with. And one of the first things they did for the Norwegians was send them to Scotland and have them train in, like, extreme weather. As much as they could. But I'm thinking, like, the Norwegians would be like, this is. This is like summer to us. What is this? Like, they. I don't see why they would need to train in Scotland, but trained they were.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And the reason why they were trained for extreme weather and extreme conditions because of the location of the Vemark power plant, or I guess, heavy water plant. It was in a really forbidding place that you would not want to go to without, like, a car.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, it was tough. I would say you'd need one of those cool old army jeeps if you wanted to get there. Back then it was surrounded by a plateau, a mountain plateau called Here we Go. Hardanga Vida.

[Josh Clark]

Perfect.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's gotta mean danger or something.

[Josh Clark]

I think it actually means, like, wide mountain plateau danger. I looked it up because I thought so, too. I was like, that's gotta be like, the name of a God that's gonna kill you or something.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Hardanger.

[Josh Clark]

That's what that is. It means high mountain plateau.

[Chuck Bryant]

I think Vida might be a plateau.

[Josh Clark]

Really?

[Chuck Bryant]

Maybe Hardanger. I don't know.

[Josh Clark]

Wait, so the. Oh, what was the guy's name? Ricky. I can't remember, but he was saying, like, living the plateau loco.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, God. Ricky Martin.

[Josh Clark]

Ricky Martin, Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Ricky Martin.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. From Menudo.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Shout out to Menudo. Who knew that was coming? I did not not know they were gonna make an appearance. All right, so it was surrounded by that mountain plateau. It is a very, very cold place. I think Livia dug up this kind of old factoid. It freezes flames in the fire is how cold it was there. Not literally, of course, but, you know, those Norwegians are. With a turn of a phrase. So Americans came in and they said, why don't we just drop a bunch of bombs on this plant? What's your problem?

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

With these saboteurs? And they said no. Tronsead was like, we've got ammonia tanks there. Liquid ammonia. You're definitely gonna kill a bunch of civilians nearby. And all this stuff is underground under concrete and metal in these bunkers. And it probably wouldn't destroy everything you wanted to destroy anyway. He also, you know, didn't say this out loud, but was like, I don't want you to destroy the only hard water plant we have. Cause this is a valuable thing. And all of a sudden, you would kind of own not the patent, but the process for that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And after the war, who knows who's going to need that stuff, so.

[Chuck Bryant]

Exactly.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. It was a little bit of national pride. Too. That was driving it. So he actually talked him out of it. The Allies, or the Americans, I guess, were put off for a little while, and they're like, all right, you go ahead and do your little sabotage thing. Let's see how you do. So that whole group of Norwegian resistance fighters was called Company Ling. And Company Ling kind of made it over as the group of trained saboteurs from the Special Operations Executive. So Company Ling, they launched an operation, Operation Grouse. Great operation name. But apparently the SOA didn't think so because they renamed it Operation Swallow. And the whole thing was led by a guy named Jens Anton Poulsen, which I think I nailed just then.

[Chuck Bryant]

Except it's Jens.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man. I semi nailed it.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, you had it. Except for that. But that's okay.

[Josh Clark]

Okay. So Jens Anton Poulsen led, I think, three other resistance fighters who parachuted back in Norway and essentially just became backwoodsmen for months, setting up, like, a camp, literally, in, like, a trapper's cabin and lived off hunting reindeer and just basically became the first little toehold of this operation of Norwegian resistance fighters coming back to sabotage the Wehrmarkt plant.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yes, exactly. So they're there, they set up their camp, they're eating reindeer. It's very sad for reindeer.

[Josh Clark]

Sad but delicious.

[Chuck Bryant]

You've never had reindeer, have you?

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, a couple times.

[Chuck Bryant]

Really?

[Josh Clark]

No.

[Chuck Bryant]

I was about to say, where the heck do you even get reindeer?

[Josh Clark]

I don't know. I'm sure somebody sells reindeer meat in, like, somewhere weird, like Missouri or something.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah. I'm sure there's people in Maine right now that are like, you've never had reindeer.

[Josh Clark]

We always have some across the pond here.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right, exactly. So about a month after that, they launched another operation, Operation Freshman. Because they were like, these guys are gonna need some real, you know, some muscle behind them. So they sent in two air gliders with 39 British soldiers, and they were just kind of coming in, you know, behind them as backup. It did not work out so well, though. One of the planes crashed into a mountain and killed everybody on board. The other one crashed into the ground, not where they were supposed to land, but, you know, a distance from that. And it didn't kill everybody, but they, you know, they saw this happen. The Gestapo found the survivors and executed them basically on the spot. And also found a map that showed that they were headed for the hard water plant. They didn't locate those original people, and they just sort of stayed there, you know, hunkering down in that cabin for a while and surviving undetected yeah.

[Josh Clark]

So Operation Freshman was like you said it was. The idea was just storm the heavy water plant, overwhelm it and blow it up. And they decided instead. Okay, instead of sending 39 soldiers with a ton of equipment, including bicycles, I read we'll just try a more subtle touch. So they went to. Oh, man. Joaquin Rudenberg.

[Chuck Bryant]

Nice.

[Josh Clark]

Who was 23 at the time. And they're like, you're basically an old man in World War II standards. Why don't you lead a team for Operation Gunnerside? And this is finally the operation that this whole episode is based on. And it was a small tactical saboteur team who went to the heavy water plant to destroy the Vermark's heavy water production capabilities.

[Chuck Bryant]

I love this kind of thing. It's just the kind of thing. And if you're thinking, oh, man, why isn't there a movie about this? There was an older movie with Kirk Douglas that I don't think, you know, set the world on fire, but I think this could go for maybe a Guy Ritchie update.

[Josh Clark]

Totally. Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

I doubt if he would do it after the other one, but, you know, I don't know.

[Josh Clark]

I don't think he's opposed to making a sequel or a reboot. I mean, Snatch was basically lock, stock and two smoking barrels done over again.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, he made a lot of those or several of those Sherlock Holmes movies, I think. Right.

[Josh Clark]

No. Lock, stock and two smoking barrels.

[Chuck Bryant]

No.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, I see. You were just kind of taking a little sidestep in the logical direction. Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

I didn't follow first one back.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yep, there you go.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, I think the first one was pretty good. I don't know about the second one. Was that any good?

[Chuck Bryant]

I didn't see any of them.

[Josh Clark]

The first one was not bad. If you don't let yourself stop and think, like, who would have the audacity to make Sherlock Holmes like a rough and tumble action hero and just kind of give yourself over to it? It's pretty good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And what, you know, I can also recommend for kids, especially younger girls, Enola Holmes. The Enola Holmes movies are pretty good.

[Josh Clark]

Both of them are good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, I enjoyed those.

[Josh Clark]

We have to do a Sherlock Holmes episode at least.

[Chuck Bryant]

We haven't done that.

[Josh Clark]

No, not as far as.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, we totally have to. Because I don't really know anything about much of that.

[Josh Clark]

It's gonna be like our chess or our soccer episode, though. I have a feeling.

[Chuck Bryant]

Other Holmesies that get upset.

[Josh Clark]

It's a whole hornet's nest. We're sticking.

[Chuck Bryant]

What are the what are the clown. What's the clown band?

[Josh Clark]

The Insane Clown Posse.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, but what are their people called?

[Josh Clark]

The Juggalos.

[Chuck Bryant]

Juggalos. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

The guy who does my hair is a former Juggalo.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. I think those are two words you'd like to hear together.

[Josh Clark]

Former Juggalo.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like former Holmesy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

After they leave that world behind, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Hey, I don't think the other part will let you leave that world behind.

[Chuck Bryant]

Oh, boy. Yeah, it's threatening.

[Josh Clark]

So where were we, Chuck? Oh, yeah, Gunnerside.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, we are at Operation Gunnerside. This guy Runeberg, he didn't know even why that that plant was a target. They basically just said, here, old chap, we want you to go destroy some pipes at the plant. And the people that tried before you all died and you might as well pip, pip. Yeah, that's basically it. That's all the information he had. But he was game. He was that kind of guy.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, I mean, they accepted cyanide pills as part of this operation. And yeah, they had no idea what they were doing. They just knew they had to go blow up some pipes and that was that. This is how dedicated these people were, that they were willing to sacrifice their life to try to blow up some pipes because the Brits told them it was going to help cripple the Nazi war effort. So I think there was five of them that parachuted in, just like the Operation Swallow people had before. But they were miles, miles away from the landing site. They just maybe got blown off course or something like that. And it took them five days of trudging through the snow, although I think they might have had skis to find the Operation Swallow people who'd been sitting there eating reindeer the whole time. And even when they found them in this trapper's cabin and hooked up with them, and now there's nine people in this operation, they were still 40 miles away from the heavy water plant. And again, it's like snowy in February in Norway. You can just imagine.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, there's a suspension bridge. There's one way you get through. But of course they had Nazi guards there, so that wasn't the best route. The other options were like a literal minefield or I guess mine forest that they could have crossed through at great peril. Or they could hike all the way down into the gorge, which had like a half frozen river running through it, and then go to the plant that way and then hike back up. And so they said. They took a vote, I guess, and they said minefield no good. Nazis on the bridge. No good. Let's just get on our skis as we do and hike down that gorge. And that's how they did it. We do need to mention one little side thing that we failed to mention is that before this all happened, when Rundberg was, I guess debriefed and sort of getting his act together to go, he went into a hardware store and apparently on a whim, as the story goes, bought some heavy duty bolt cutters, like metal bolt cutters. And so just park that right there. Because, you know, if you introduce bolt cutters, I guess in this case act two, you know they're going to cut something in act three.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

So he's got those bolt cutters and they decide to go down into the gorge as their route to the hard water plant. Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

And again, not just going down into a gorge, crossing a half frozen river and climbing up a cliff to get to the top of the gorge on the other side where the heavy water plant was. And apparently that route was such an unlikely route that the Nazis didn't even bother guarding the gorge.

[Chuck Bryant]

No, nobody would go down there.

[Josh Clark]

Exactly. So February 27th, they made it for the 40 miles to their target. I think it was the night, like right before midnight, this team of nine saboteurs from company Ligne, the Norwegian resistance, are sitting there outside of the Vermark power plant, figuring out exactly how they're going to get in. And they decided that they would split up. There were five of them. And as they were sitting outside, they were faced with their first obstacle, which was a fence. And apparently the Brits had said there's a fence, so here's a handsaw. And the guy who was in charge, who was it? Runeberg?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Clark]

His second in command, Knut Hauckleid. We're like running through these Norwegian names, man.

[Chuck Bryant]

Hey, that sounds pretty good to me.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, so. And I know it's Knut, I always thought it was nut, but it's Knut because I watched this cool little Nova special and he was interviewed and they definitely said, Knut. He said, runberg, don't you have some bolt cutters?

[Chuck Bryant]

Right.

[Josh Clark]

And Runberg gave him the bolt cutters and instead of this loud, tedious, laborious hacksaw that they would have tried to use and probably gotten caught using, they just snipped right through the fence in a few minutes. Thanks to Rubberg's foresight back in Cambridge.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. Snip, snip. So that paid off pretty quickly.

[Josh Clark]

Much more that was still Act 2.

[Chuck Bryant]

Well, I think I got the saying wrong. If you introduce bowl cutters in Act 2, they're going to snip something in Act 2.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

They're on the property now. Five of the nine provide cover. The other two, and they had Tommy guns. They had chloroform. They were set for an attack if need be. And they were keeping a watch on the barracks because there weren't hundreds of German soldiers. I get the idea if they were going in with the initial 29, that it was probably a couple of dozen, maybe. I mean, that's just a guess.

[Josh Clark]

I don't even know if it was that many.

[Chuck Bryant]

Maybe not.

[Josh Clark]

As important as this heavy water plant was to the atomic program in Germany, it was so remote that they were just like, you know, I think it's gonna take a few people. We got mines. There's a gorge. We got people on the bridge. It's fine.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So they were keeping a watch on the barracks. They were keeping a watch on that bridge for the guardsmen there and just sort of waiting around for any, you know, activity so they could get those Tommy guns out or maybe silently chloroform a Nazi, which was a dream of any Norwegian saboteur.

[Josh Clark]

You know, they wanted to do that so bad.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. So the other four guys split into two pairs. They each had. And I get the idea they split up in case. And they each had enough to, like, blow it up in case, like, two of them got caught or killed. The other two could still complete the job.

[Josh Clark]

Right.

[Chuck Bryant]

They got in through a second gate, and they had arranged with one of the co workers there to, I guess, you know, one of the inside moles to leave a cellar door open. But unfortunately, that person called in sick that day and I guess didn't seem to think, like, hey, I had this important other task to do. And Tronstad had previously told them, though, like, if you can't get in that way, there's a cable shaft you can probably slip through. And that's what they ended up using.

[Josh Clark]

I just wanted to circle back and emphasize the fact that this man was a linchpin to a sabotage plan. All he had to do was show up to work and leave a door open.

[Chuck Bryant]

He could have gone home right after that.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

And been like, I just threw up. I have to go, get out of here.

[Josh Clark]

Right. And my guess, this is 1943. There's an 85% chance that his illness was a severe hangover, which makes it even worse.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, probably so.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, luckily, yes, they found that that hatch was open in the cable shaft and they basically slid through the. The two who made it through the cable shaft was Ruenberg, the leader, and a guy named Frederick. Frederick? Yeah. Kaiser.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, Frederick.

[Josh Clark]

Frederick.

[Chuck Bryant]

Not Frederick.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Eat your heart out. Frederick's.

[Chuck Bryant]

It's probably Frederick Friedrich.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah.

[Chuck Bryant]

Would be my guess.

[Josh Clark]

I like Frederick. That's how we say it in America. Anyway, Kaiser and Rubenberg, they were the ones who went down this cable shaft. And they start getting busy. I think Kaiser was holding a gun.

[Chuck Bryant]

Whoa, whoa. What?

[Josh Clark]

They're like, we have some extra time.

[Chuck Bryant]

Sorry, go ahead.

[Josh Clark]

So they. Yes, and they went down a shaft even as well. And so almost immediately, they found a watchman. I take him to be a Norwegian watchman, maybe. And they were like, you know, you're now our hostage. Sit there and be quiet. And he's like, no problem. You guys do whatever you want. And despite his complicity, Kaiser was like, this is my one chance. And so he chloroformed the watchman anyway. And so as he's doing this, Rumberg went and planted the explosives on the pipes just as he was told to do. And right about then, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, there's a explosion of glass as a window shatters. And Runberg and Kaiser and the chloroform guard all turn and look. And the other two men from the other explosives team come in through the window.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. They're like, it's just us guys. We're all here together so we can get this thing bombed up quicker. They set up those explosives, the four of them, I guess, at this point. And the fuses at the time were two minute fuses that would have given enough time to get the heck out of there. Runberg said, no, I really want to make sure we hear this thing go off. So we're gonna go down to 30 seconds. I imagine everyone said, well, how about a minute? He said, no, 30 seconds is plenty. So they're getting ready to light the fuses. The guard that they had at gunpoint said, can I get those glasses? Yeah, you know, if they blow up, my optometrist has quit and retired. I'm not gonna be able to replace those things very easily. So they said, sure, get your glasses. And at that point, another civilian employee, Norwegian, obviously, comes into the room and is now another temporary prisoner. Ronberg lights those fuses, counts to 10, which means they only have 20 seconds, and then says, run to the two civilians. They get the heck out of there as well. I reckon in the movie Guy Ritchie would really have to sort of fudge things because what is not exciting in a movie like this is when is all you hear. And that's kind of all they heard. It wasn't a huge explosion. It's not like they were blowing up this entire plant like you would probably do in a movie. They were just trying to damage these pipes. And he said that later on, he said they heard a tiny, insignificant pop. Also because it was underground under that concrete and stuff. Windows did break though, enough at least to rouse some sleeping Nazis. This part is very movie like, because the four that were guarding kind of watched as a half dressed Nazi gets out and was like, oh, do I hear anything? Do I hear anything? But apparently that was a pretty noisy plant. So he just goes back to bed.

[Josh Clark]

I can't help but imagining like a Sergeant Schultz type stumbling out.

[Chuck Bryant]

Totally.

[Josh Clark]

So, yeah, it wasn't a big deal. And as a matter of fact, I mean, it turned out to be a big deal, but like, yeah, it didn't cause like that huge explosion where guards start coming out of nowhere and, you know, there's alarms going off and searchlights coming on. It wasn't anything like that. And in fact, all nine people who were the saboteurs in this operation got away. They escaped scot free. And in retrospect, not a single bullet was fired and not a single person died in this highly successful, amazingly daring sabotage operation.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. But that is not the end of the story. So maybe we should take our second break. Yes, and we'll come back and finish up right after this. Wanna learn about a pterosaur and call a pterodactyl how to take a perfect movement all about fractals, Attila the Hun, the Lizzie Borden murders, and the cannonball runs. Don't explain everything to your brain. Explosives, Chuck and Jaw. This is something you should know. Word up, Jerry.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or. Or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chuck Bryant]

All right, so as you said, the saboteurs got away. I think one of them, Polson, took off to Scotland by sea. Runberg and the. And the rest of the gang stayed on their skis, as the Norwegians do. They skied about 200 miles, which is like nothing for them. They skied to Sweden, in fact, with Nazis chasing them. They had planes above trying to locate them. Like that part would be a pretty good part of the movie, I guess. But they got away. And there was a German head of the German special forces in Norway who called it the most splendid couple. However, it only took a few months before the Nazis were able to restart production at the plant. I think this happened in February. So in May of that same year, they had ramped back up to full capacity, which seems like a big disappointment, but no cause. Here come the Americans with their initial plan to just bomb the plant. And just like they were warned, it did not do a ton of damage to anyone but the 22 Norwegian civilians who were killed.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, like this. This heavy water plant was in this basement of a power plant. So it was not easy to get to as far as, like, aerial bombs are concerned.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, especially the bombs back then, you know.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, for real. But the thing is, it did show the Nazis that, like, hey, this remote, isolated, actually surprisingly vulnerable plant, that's like the one source of our heavy water. We should probably stop creating heavy water there and move the operations to Germany. Yeah, so they did. And remember, the Nazi heavy water program is set back a few months. And this is at a time where the Allies are racing in the Manhattan Project to create the atomic bomb, assuming the Nazis are in the same race as them. The Allies understand that, like, we can do this in like two, three years. So to set back a Nazi atomic program three months is an enormous setback in a two or three year race to become the first to come up with an atomic bomb. So from that standpoint, even at the time they were like, that was a very successful operation. Even though, like you said, the Nazis got back up to full capacity in just a couple of months. But as we said, they were moving everything to Germany. And I guess the company Linge crew, the Norwegian freedom fighters, they were keeping an eye on all the movements of the heavy water from, I guess, their moles inside the heavy water plant. And they knew that the Nazis were going to move the heavy water and when they were going to do it and how they were going to do it.

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. So they come up with another plan to further thwart their efforts. And they determined the best way to do this was to sabotage the ferry that's gonna be ferrying everything over to Germany. So they knew it would cost some civilian lives, but they figured that was their best chance to get it before it even had a chance to get set up again. And old Canute is back on the scene. He was the second in command there at Gunnerside, if you remember, and he was leading the team this time. He had been promoted, I guess. And in February 1944, they set off explosions on the bow of that ship. It was a ferry called the hydro. And 14 Norwegians, sadly were killed along with four Germans. And this again was a big success. For a long time they weren't even positive that there was heavy or they couldn't prove at least that there was heavy water on board. And there was a German heavy water expert after the war that said, no, those were just, those were dummies, dummy. And I guess to try and undermine the idea that it was a success. But PBS Nova to the rescue. In 2003, they organized a salvage of one of those barrels from that sunken ferry and they proved that it contained heavy water. So it was a great success. After all.

[Josh Clark]

That was the Nova mini documentary I watched. It was really good.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah.

[Josh Clark]

But one of the things that they cover in that, the reason why the Allies were like, maybe those were dummies, is that there were reports of survivors of that ferry sinking, that barrels had been floating. Like some people were trying to like climb onto the barrels to survive. They're like, heavy water is not supposed to float in regular water. And so they, they were like, it's possible that this, this was a decoy. Because also intelligence showed that some heavy water did arrive in Germany. Well, it turns out, thanks to this Nova special, I'm about to spoil it, that the, those barrels that floated were the most pure form of heavy water that they had At Wehrmark. The barrels weren't full and so the air inside the barrels was making them float.

[Chuck Bryant]

Wow.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. So it was heavy water that they sabotaged. They did put a dent in the amount of heavy water. I think There was a 15 ton shipment and the Germans were only able to collect, I think the four that were floating. So it was a big deal too. But again, 18 people lost their lives for 14 of them innocent Norwegians. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's actually something they wrestle with in the Nova documentary because they interview some of these people we've talked about and they're trying to reconcile their guilt with how impactful the mission was, especially living for decades with that gnawing rumor in the back of their head that those had been dummy barrels.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And it resulted in the loss of so many civilian lives.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So I think they were quite relieved to find that it really was heavy water. And still there's debate today over, even with the success of Gunnerside, even with the success of that Swallow Group sinking of the Hydro ferry, how much of an impact it really had on Germany's atomic program, and in fact, how much of a program Germany had during World War II to build an atomic bomb.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, for sure. The official historian of the Soe, M.R.D. foote, Great Name, said that it changed the course of the war. The fact that they were denied that regular, steady supply of heavy water really put a dent in their operation. Livia very astutely points out another factor was that key scientists were. A lot of them were Jewish scientists that the Nazis were using, and they either escaped or were murdered, which also slowed down the Germans pursuit of the bomb. But also, I think you found out too, that was it, the Germans regretted pursuing heavy water. Was that what it was? Instead of graphite.

[Josh Clark]

So they were basically. They took a wrong turn right out of the gate with what they chose as a moderator. I think, like, did you say earlier that the United States chose graphite? Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, we used graphite. They went with heavy water, which was a mistake.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, well, they're both really great moderators, but graphite is available in abundance. You can find it anywhere, Right?

[Chuck Bryant]

Sure.

[Josh Clark]

Heavy water is really hard to come by. So right out of the gate, the Germans chose a moderator that was really difficult to get and that there was only one place basically in the world that was producing it, whereas the Americans just went out and bought a bunch of graphite at the grocery store, basically to use as their moderator. So right away, that first hurdle the Americans overcame, the Germans ran into. And the most interesting thing is it was based on a miscalculation.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, that's right. If they had have calculated correctly, then they would have known from the beginning. Right.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. So I think whoever conducted. I can't remember their names, but they conducted experiments on the viability of graphite as a moderator, and they basically forgot to carry a one or something. I think what it really was is they didn't factor in the influence of impurities in their graphite sample, and they concluded that graphite wasn't a very good moderator. So let's use heavy water instead. So essentially, even before the program started, the Nazi atomic program was just dead. Like dead in the water, basically.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah, got to carry that.

[Josh Clark]

Yes. But the Allies didn't know this. And it turns out that just the Idea that the Nazis were involved in heavy water production suggested that they were after an atomic bomb and that the Allies then were in a foot race against them, and that led to the creation of an actual atomic bomb. So the Nazis directly influenced the production of an atomic bomb, even though it wasn't theirs.

[Chuck Bryant]

The Nazis being involved in heavy water production sounds like some sort of weird Oktoberfest slogan, right?

[Josh Clark]

It'd be like, what does this mean? And they'd be like, just drink this huge gallon here.

[Chuck Bryant]

I mentioned that film 1965's the Heroes of Telemark with Kirk Douglas as sort of a mashed up fictional character based on both Ronnenberg and Tronstadt. That, like I said, wasn't the biggest film ever, but it was an American film. So we did know about this operation more than they did in Norway until, like 2015. State broadcaster NRK ran a miniseries called the Heavy Water War in 2015. And that's when a lot of Norwegians kind of first learned of this operation. And if we're talking Tronstadt, if we want to button up his story, if you feel bad for this guy because he didn't get to parachute in and actually have feet on the ground for this kind of thing, he finally got to do that kind of thing in October of 1944. He got under that parachute for Operation Sunshine, which was protecting Norway's some of their industrial assets and infrastructure from German saboteurs as the Nazis were on their way out. So he got his hands dirty, which he'd always wanted to do. But very sadly, the following May, I believe, in 1945, he was shot dead by the brother of a Norwegian collaborator who he was questioning. So he tragically died as well.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah, which is sad. At least he did get to get to oversee and fly in on Operation Sunshine.

[Chuck Bryant]

I wonder if he got to use any chloroform, maybe.

[Josh Clark]

So, Chuck, I think that's it for the Norwegian sabotage operation Gunnerside. We haven't figured out what we're going to name this episode.

[Chuck Bryant]

I like Livia's title.

[Josh Clark]

Oh, man, it's one of the better ones.

[Chuck Bryant]

You want to go ahead and tell everyone?

[Josh Clark]

Yes.

[Chuck Bryant]

She titled this article Like Water for Nazis. Pretty good sense of humor. Really good.

[Josh Clark]

Well, thanks, Olivia, for that. And thanks to you for listening. And how about we set up a listener mail so I can thank that person too?

[Chuck Bryant]

That's right. This is from Justin Meeks about Tavern on the Green. Hey, guys. This shows you how long we've been off. Cause I've been holding on to this one. My grandma had a wonderful related story to Tavern on the Green. She was from rural Montana and traveled to New York in the late 90s with a group of old ladies over Thanksgiving. One of her traveling group actually had sold David Letterman his Montana ranch. So they went to a taping of a show and he invited them backstage. He found out they were going to be in town for Thanksgiving and invited them to have Thanksgiving dinner with him at Tavern on the Green.

[Josh Clark]

What? Wow.

[Chuck Bryant]

What a guy. Grandma said that was one of the first Thanksgiving she could remember that she didn't eat turkey dinner because at Tavern North Green they had to order the steak and lobster, especially because Letterman was paying for it. Grandma never missed an episode of Letterman even before this. Certainly never did afterwards. Letterman is seriously a great dude. And love that Grandma got to meet one of her heroes like this. Thanks for the many years of the podcast. Keep up the great work. Come back and see us in Denver. That is from Justin Meeks. And Justin, we're gonna head back to Denver at some point, but we should probably tell people, since we're getting emails, that we are not doing live shows in 2025.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. Including sketch Fest. We've gotten a lot of emails from people who's like, the Sketch Fest schedule's wrong because it doesn't have stuff you should know on there. Right. And yes, we're sorry to inform you we're not going to be at Sketchfest for, what, the first time in like, many years? 10 years maybe or something.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. We're just taking a down year from doing live shows. We're gonna. We're gonna be back out there again. So fear not, we're just taking a down year. And that's like four less trips that we're gonna take. And we're gonna be with our family. And that's a decision we made that we feel good about.

[Josh Clark]

Yeah. And ironically, I just reached diamond status for 2025. Oh.

[Chuck Bryant]

I've never been diamond.

[Josh Clark]

I couldn't believe it. I got the email and I forwarded it to. I was like, well, now I know it's going to be written on my headstone.

[Chuck Bryant]

Yeah. And I'll be buried next to you. And it'll just say, sadly peaked at platinum.

[Josh Clark]

What else, man?

[Chuck Bryant]

That's it.

[Josh Clark]

Okay, well, thank you very much to Justin Meeks. Justin Meeks, whose grandma has a great story and who I assume did not go on to become Letterman stalker.

[Chuck Bryant]

Right. I don't think so.

[Josh Clark]

If you want to be like Justin and email us a pretty cool story about David Letterman or otherwise. You can send it off to stuffpodcastheartradio.com.

[Chuck Bryant]

Stuff youf Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.