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- [00:00]
A
Foreign welcome back to Face to Face. Our three part miniseries brought to you by Dan Murphy's across this series, we're sitting down with three bold creative voices who are natural trendsetters pushing boundaries in their industries. They're the kind of people you'd love to sit down for a drink with. Each episode takes you inside their journeys, the wins, the lessons and what's coming up next. All while celebrating great drinks and even better conversation. This series is made possible by Dan Murphy's your go to for the next big thing in beer and premixed drinks. Head in store or onto the app and always remember to choose to drink wise. Hello, I'm Rhiannon Joyce, Shameless Media's head of Business development and stylish is Friday co host. Welcome to Face to Face and today we're talking to Kaitlyn Emiko. Now let me introduce you to Kaitlyn. Kaitlyn is someone I've known for a few years. She's built a thriving career in marketing and TikTok strategy in New York City and has collaborated with global brands and influence campaigns you've more than likely engaged with. Caitlin is also the mastermind behind a strategy for grilled that created 350% growth for the brand's TikTok, something I'll be asking her about later and has been able to navigate building a personal brand and building connections in one of the world's busiest cities. Caitlin documents her building her life in New York City and shares with us her daily life through a lot of fashion and beauty content on TikTok. Caitlin. Caitlin, I'm so excited to chat to you today and I know you're going to have a lot of words of wisdom and insights for us to share. How are you feeling?
- [01:41]
B
Hey Ree, I'm excited. I feel like it's been a few years since we've spoken about marketing.
- [01:46]
A
I know last time we caught up it was more so in a social setting when I was in New York City. God, that was almost two. Was it two? No, that was last year. That feels crazy. A long time ago. But yeah, more of like a social catch up. But prior to that feel like you've been such a good source of inspiration for me personally in mostly how to build personal brand but also how to tackle marketing and strategy in a very dynamic and youthful way. You've had a lot of influence on brands as I touched on. I'm kind of keen to get into more detail about that later. But before we do, when we kick off our stylish episodes on a Wednesday, we actually do what's known as the swap. So a host will bring in a recommendation, a product or a podcast, anything that they want to swap in and share with our audience. I'm keen to kick off today. What is your swap?
- [02:39]
B
My swap? Getting right into the marketing side of things. I would say this is something that someone really close to me shared recently and I'm just like taking it as my own and running with it. I know that if you're listening to this podcast, you'll probably love this, but in all work senses, it's called NotebookLM. Have you heard of this?
- [02:57]
A
I haven't heard of this.
- [02:58]
B
Okay. So essentially you can put like any script, any material into it and it will like spit out a podcast between two people and it's all AI generated. It's like how I digest all my information and I just like fully will put anyone onto it that is trying to learn something new. If you're trying to learn more about a country that you're visiting, if it's to do with work, anything like that. And I would say that I've almost swapped it from that. From like chat gbt.
- [03:24]
A
Yeah. Wow. So does it present the information in a two, a two way dialogue, like a podcast format?
- [03:30]
B
Yeah, and it's almost obviously with AI like there's going to be mistakes here and there, but it's pretty crazy. And it generates it in probably around like four minutes or so. So if you're trying to learn something new, that's probably what I would swap into your routine.
- [03:43]
A
Wow. I love that. It will be super helpful for our listeners. We'll also have to include a link in the show notes so they can just. Is it just an app? Like you can just download it?
- [03:51]
B
Yeah, it's free as well.
- [03:52]
A
Okay. I'll just make a note to our producers to include that in the show notes. Super helpful. All right, today I want to kick off the interview. Starting somewhere fun. I want to talk about New York City because I do feel like it makes up a huge portion of how you show up online, but also your. So let's start with the New York move. You moved to New York in 2023. How has it been beneficial to your career as a TikTok strategist?
- [04:16]
B
Yeah, that's a really good question. I would say that it pushed me to be a lot more extroverted in my career. I think in Melbourne, I was very much tied to agency life and kind of the bubble, which is so great when you're first starting and also when you're kind of trying to, you know, Set your roots and grow your client base. And I think think that I just got to the point where I was working with brands that everyone kind of knew already, and I just wanted to be challenged a little bit more. And that's not to say that if you are, you know, in Australia, you're not going to be challenged. But for me, also having American roots, I just knew that this would be a very, like, seamless transition for me. And then I would probably say, in terms of career, it has allowed me to. Well, I feel like it's obviously one of the most expensive cities in the world, so it's allowed me to pretty much, like, double my income. And I don't think that I would have had access to people or the clientele had I stayed where I was in Melbourne. And especially given I was raised down on the peninsula, which is very small in the Mornington Peninsula, so it's not like I was living in the big city anyway.
- [05:20]
A
And you moved with your best friend, Talia. What were the challenges of building and setting up your career in a new country?
- [05:26]
B
Yeah, if I ever refer this podcast to we, I don't have a partner, but my partner is pretty much Talia. We, like, work together, share finances, live together, do everything together. So I feel like whenever I say we, just assume that I'm, you know, referring to her. It's honestly just, like, embedded in my vocabulary at this point. But in terms of setting up a career, it was very difficult. A lot of my clients remained Australian for the first year and a half, probably because I was more well known in Melbourne, I would say specifically not even, like, branching into Sydney or anywhere else. And then I honestly just had to become a lot more extroverted. Like, I would say I'm naturally pretty introverted, which might shock people because, like, you'll put your whole life online. Like, you're definitely not introverted. But I had to go to Shopify event. Had to. I did party a lot, actually, which helped. Good way of networking in New York City. And it was really difficult, especially when you know that at the end of the day, like, your rent is quadruple what it was in Melbourne and you do have to make ends meet. So the initial phases was very scrappy. Like, I was working at a cafe to network with people who were probably owning businesses because they were coming through the doors at different times. Like, everything was very strategic in the initial phases. I didn't make friends with any Australians in any of the initial phases because I assumed that all of their contacts would be Australian. So we almost had this rule where we said, we're only going to be friends with and network with Americans in the first year. And if we met someone great who was Australian, we're like, you have to hold for you too. And that was purely like by design of time and thinking, okay, they probably have connections, say to l', Oreal, but in the US more like CPG brands in the US that they're familiar with, rather than saying, oh, I'm Australian and I know X, Y, Z founders in Melbourne or Sydney. So it was very strategic and scrappy at the same time. I would say, did you have a.
- [07:12]
A
Goal in your mind of how many US brand partners you wanted to work with in that first year, or is it very much just acquire as many as you could?
- [07:21]
B
I would definitely say it was quality over quantity. I used to probably be more obsessed with like getting the bigger names until you realize that bigger doesn't always equal budget. A lot of the time you would acquire, say, a bigger client, but you would need more of them because they almost think that they're doing you a service by contracting you. And something that I did notice as well with bigger brands in the US is and this might just be in marketing, they use less contractors than in Australia. I feel like in Australia, like small business, medium sized business, it's very usual to kind of bring people in and get their output, even if they're not a full time employee. But in America, it's pretty systemized. So I definitely found that it was a lot more rigid and harder to kind of break in and prove your value because a lot of them would say, like, why don't you just come work full time? And I obviously did not want to work full time. So, yeah, it was more so like navigating the cultural landscape as well.
- [08:15]
A
Was there a breakout moment for you where you felt like you really found your stride in New York City?
- [08:19]
B
Probably only recently, and that was due to having brands who are in the US want me to do the Australian and US strategy and kind of connecting me with both, which is where I really like to sit. But that's only. Yeah, that's almost three years on now. And I would say I'm only like kind of just entering that phase right now.
- [08:38]
A
I think it just goes to show it takes time to build and establish yourself, particularly in a city like New York. It's a completely different country, a completely different culture. You know, a lot of my friends have moved to New York City and I don't feel like they're coming home anytime soon. They've just really cemented themselves there and found their group. But it has taken three or four years to do that. One of my best friends, Rachel, she's quite senior at l' Oreal and has been in New York, God, for, I think, almost like six years now. But it feels like time has moved quite quickly. Even though she's been there for a really long time, I would say as well. What's been interesting is watching her really climb the corporate ladder. Very different to what you're doing. But as an Australian, it seems like she's really found her groove and been able to progress her career quite well. I don't know what it is, but it feels like a lot of the Australians that I know that go to New York do really well. Do you think there's something in that, in terms of how we're brought up or our work ethics? Do you think there's anything there or.
- [09:37]
B
Yeah, I have a few theories on this, which might be a bit controversial, but I definitely think that Australians, you honestly just have more years. And what we've found with both our friendship groups and also meeting people here is a lot of the time everything starts later. Whether that's like the drinking age being 21, so you're typically going a little bit more crazy, like say 21, 22, you're coming out of college. A lot of people's, especially in New York City, like, parents supplement their lifestyle, whether that be like groceries, if they have a car, different things like that. Whereas I typically feel, and at least this is the people I surround myself with in Australia, you are more either financially independent or independent dependent in general earlier on. So by the time you do get to say, when I moved here and I was 24, which seems so young now, I would say that my maturity levels and also the fact that I'd already been working for about six years at that time, like, I had friends that had the first job that year who were Americans. So by that notion, I just think Australians do have a lot more experience coming into the, say, like early and mid-20s into the workforce. I do think that Australians just have that little upper hand because you do kind of just get thrown out into the world pretty much at like 17 or 18.
- [10:44]
A
Yeah, that's really interesting and I agree. I. I really like that perspective on socials and I love following you on Tick Tock and Instagram, all social platforms, as well as YouTube. The YouTube edition has been great. I love watching you and Talia just talk through. It's like, honestly, watching your friends, it's a really great dynamic. One series I love on your socials is when you talk about how your style has evolved over the years. And I feel like in New York as well as feels like you've really found your groove with your style. How is New York influenced your personal style?
- [11:15]
B
Thank you. That is a huge compliment, especially coming from someone like you. In terms of my style, I would say even though you're like given the opportunity to take more risks with your style in New York, there's almost less pressure. So you don't feel the need to be super extravagant. At least in my case I don't feel the need to wear things that are super extravagant. Whereas I think sometimes in Melbourne if I had an event I'd be like, oh my God, I have an event like this week I need to go all out or I need to buy something new. Whereas is I think that dressing up more just on the day to day is normalized. And yeah, it has taken me a while. Honestly, I couldn't afford bloody to buy new clothes when I first moved here. I was trying to try to eat my Trader Joe's packet salad. So now that I think I am a little bit more financially secure as well, I can afford to buy things that I want to have in my closet for a while. So I am very particular about things that I purchase and I know that you are as well.
- [12:08]
A
I am very particular about things that I purchase to try and be a very considered shopper. Are you finding yourself gravitating still towards Australian brands or are you doing a bit more uncovery of US brands?
- [12:19]
B
No, Aussies just do it better. Like I'm literally wearing a with consideration top and dish pants right now. So I am very much still shopping Australian brands. So much so that I just went to Japan. I got my mom to bring over the 1 mile polos. Like I ordered them to her house and said like, can you please bring these to Japan? She like my little pack horse. I bring all my Australian brands in there because Aussie brands, they're just ahead of the effortlessly cool trend. Whereas I think a lot of the US brands and of course this is not all of them, but they are a little bit more preppy or stock kind of brands that give like Uniqlo or like Zara.
- [12:53]
A
We'll get back into the rest of the interview after a word from today's sponsor. It's official, guys. Spring is here and we are absolutely living for those first warm weekends, the ones where it hits 22 degrees and suddenly the group chat is suggesting last minute picnics and backyard barbecues. I love hosting and one thing I've learned is to have a variety of drinks on standby for these exact moments. Dan Murphy's is the best place to stock up, not only because they have a huge selection of products to choose from, but because they're always keeping a firm finger on the pulse, tracking trends and newly introduced flavors so we can easily pick up something everyone will love. For example, apparently flavor infusions are the next big thing. Even Asahi have brought out their classic super dry beer with a lemon Yuzu twist. And then there's the Kirin hi Yuketsu mixed with vodka soda and fresh Mandarin juice which feels like the ultimate picnic basket edition if you ask me. Whether you're hosting or heading somewhere, Dan Murphy's can share the freshest drinks on their radar. Just drop in store or download the app to get inspired and remember to choose to drink wise. A huge thank you to Dan Murphy's for making this episode of stylish possible Back to work chat. Bit of a tangent there, but I think it was a worthy one. When we're talking about fashion now, New York is very famous for its event pop ups and I'm sure you've been to plenty whilst you're there. I feel like I've seen quite a bit as well with you working with Axel Arigato helping with some of their strategy. We're seeing a lot of artists this year like Doja Cat Lord put on pop up meet and greets. That's how I would kind of coin it across the city. All of which are being well documented and shared on social media by attendees. What do you think it is about this type of pop up campaigns that do so well online? Like why do people like them so much?
- [14:43]
B
I really feel like the consumer in 2025 wants to be able to experience the brand and a lot of the time it's very much like CGI Marketing was very trendy for the last year or so and these things kind of ebb and flow. But when we actually look at, I guess, consumer behavior, people do want to be more connected than ever because they are disconnected. And I guess from an artist perspective, like someone that comes to mind is probably more like Fred again two and a half years ago in Melbourne when he would just pop up at random places and play at like normal bars and people just love it because it gives kind of that community feel and for artists it's such a win win. Like it's great pr. It's, it's almost like When I hear stories of celebrities paying people's bills, like that's just pr so that it's word of mouth, you know, and then the people feel like they're actually a part of something and when they go to these event, they know that people that are going to be like minded when in today's day and age, say you're meeting like your partner through a dating app, you're meeting your friends through like TikTok or if people are using like Bumble BFF or Instagram DM or it's like the one place where you know that you have a common interest and you can kind of build on that. And yeah, I definitely think we'll see a lot more brands doing it as well as of course, like musicians.
- [15:59]
A
I'm loving brands investing more time and energy into community. I do feel like we're seeing a shift and a prioritizing of people and connection and being able to bring them all together. I spoke about this with Sammy in the founder and creative director of One Mile in our previous episode about how community is at the forefront of how they're building their brand and really trying to, you know, also build out partnerships. So when they're thinking about other brands that they're partnering with, it's how are we adding value to the community, whether that be through a product. For example, she spoke about how she works with Kara Stars and they were offering the free, free product when they were purchasing a 1 mile product and being able to add that value pace, it feels like from a product point of view, a connection point of view at events, that brands are really moving back into that direction of community first. And I really want to come back to your point about the CGI thing because I mean, if I see one more product pop up on Bondi beach like Mads and I laugh about this all the time, we're like, stop doing that. It's done. Like, we need to just move on.
- [17:04]
B
I know. I think it's almost like it's similar to fashion. It's just a trend and people will adi fatigue. People do get AI fatigue. And that's when it. I always think of it like a pendulum, right? On the one side you have like ultimate connection, the other side you have meaning. Everything online, everything being chronically online, like at some point it goes so far to that other side that the pendulum does have to swing backwards, you know, and that is when people are looking for more real connection. I think the issue that we see a lot of the time with brands having a community first focus is that it doesn't always feel authentic. Like, sometimes it can feel very performative. So I remember posting a TikTok, I think, or maybe a LinkedIn post about three and a half years ago saying, I don't know why more brands don't do influencer trips, but with their highest VIP customers say, say, for example, like a Henny had a VIP customer and it's not dollars spent because obviously that's just like, not the way to go about it. But say they had someone that they knew came into their store every time they had new arrivals. Maybe they didn't buy something, but they knew the girls there or whatever it was, and then they host event, but invited those select people. That feels very intentional. Whereas now I think people will say, like, oh, we're community first, we're community first. Like, look at us, we're inviting our customers to events. But it would be almost more powerful to not showcase it and almost have that word of mouth kind of speak for itself. So it's almost, where's the line between, I guess, the CGI marketing and then the performative community and finding the balance.
- [18:30]
A
Would you say that the consumer is pretty smart, though, and can clock that? Because I would say that they can tell straight away if that community is authentic or if it feels manufactured for a brand's purpose, which is ultimately to try and make money. Not to be a cynic, but I can spot it from a mile away. If it's disingenuous or if it's genuine.
- [18:48]
B
Yeah, definitely. But I also think that's because you're tapped in. I think, like, Tyler and I always say, like, we need an outsider perspective because we're like the same person and we'll have similar opinions.
- [18:58]
A
Can you think of a brand who's doing community really well and in a very authentic way?
- [19:02]
B
I mean, I'm biased to say my client acts Larry Garter, but say your client.
- [19:06]
A
You're allowed to say that. You also just disclose you work for them. So I feel like you tick that box.
- [19:10]
B
Yeah, I think they do an incredible job of it because they have a list of tastemakers in the space that are frequently working with them or they're, you know, into fashion, or they utilize stylists that might not have a huge following on TikTok, but then they also post the events to their Instagram story and you can RSVP if you're, you know, just someone who loves the brand and they're hosted, like in the heart of New York City. So even if people are walking past, they live in Soho. Maybe they're coming past the store and they're like, oh, this is cool. I'll just like bump in and check it out. They host like a bunch of different styled events as well, whether that's like more like rave and party or like jazz low key vibes. So it does feel like when you go there, like a lot of people come by themselves. And I think that's why I've experienced it quite authentically, is because people will come solo from work or maybe they look really dripped out. They've come from, you know, home and really put a lot of effort into the style or the outfit that they're wearing. But everyone's chatting like it doesn't feel awkward and super manufactured.
- [20:09]
A
I think that's a great example. I've also seen a lot of the content on your socials, obviously, if you do work for them, but also just organically as well. It feels like a brand that's very tapped into culture. So naturally that has led to a really strong community. As we've touched on in detail, you do document a lot of your personal life as well as your career online. How have you juggled the personal content creation and working for major brands like l', Oreal, Tony Bianco? Just name a few. Like, how do you balance that?
- [20:37]
B
I would say that I probably talk about 5% of my work. I would say a lot of the time, Tali and I like to say we probably look like. Well, we do. We have a very fruitful life. And I'm not going to sit here and say that we don't. But a lot of the time, like all day today, from the moment we woke up until I got here, we're just literally hunched over, full prawn over the desk the whole day. And I think we're really good at showcasing the lovely bits of our life. But. But I would say that showcasing my work isn't a priority to me because I almost feel like before it's done, you get the ego boost. And I don't think that is like a good place for me to sit. I think early days, if I worked with a brand, I would post about it, say a week later and say, oh, I worked with this brand or I delivered this campaign. Whereas, say, for example, with grilled, once I was executed, it was like four or five months down the track that I was like, oh, yeah, by the way, I was working with them through this campaign. And I think that is the balance is more so having the kind of fluffy, lovely lifestyle be the forefront and then the Work kind of speak for itself and turn in the background in some ways.
- [21:46]
A
Do you think your personal content creation strategy is also part of your resume or your CV to clients?
- [21:53]
B
Yeah, definitely. Like there is definitely a reason that we don't speak in depth about going on dates, dating life. Anything that is is I would say, quote unquote, like controversial or not really like above board for a client. And that purely is because when you are in these rooms you do want to be taken seriously. And I'm sure this is something that a lot of women in marketing especially or just in the workforce have experience. You do want to be taken seriously. And if they are googling your chat GPT and your background and it comes up with like girl goes on, you know, 30 dates in 30 days. Obviously I'm not doing that. But say that was to come up socially. You already get kind of like a deduction in that room. That is not where I'm trying to sit in any of like the meetings I go into, any of the prospect clients that I'm talking to. And especially as I continue to grow my career. Yeah, you do get asked those questions I guess a lot more frequently than you would expect.
- [22:45]
A
You do have a very multifaceted career. We hear a lot of the success stories online. But how would you distill the actions you took to build a career you actually enjoy?
- [22:54]
B
My career journey I feel like has been really long, but when I think about it, it's almost like I just blacked out. Now I'm here. But I think it's also assumed like if you're working in New York, you're always like the smartest person in school. You're always switched on, you're super type A. You have all your shit together. That's just so not the case. Like if you watch any of our second page, too much talking, you'll know I'm very type B in a lot of ways. I'm pretty disorganized a lot of the time and I'm not perfect by any means. I also wasn't the smartest person in school. Like I wasn't straight A's. I was like, c's get degrees. I'm just gonna get my uni degree and get out. But I always knew that I really liked the creative side of things. I always loved analyzing why something worked well, why it didn't work well. And I was able to play into my strengths in that side side. But it did take at least like pre agency life. It took about two or three years of working for free. I was working at cafes and I would say, like, let me do your Instagram or let me run your Instagram for 20 a week. Mind you, this is in like 2016, 2017. And they would be like, okay. And then I would use that as my portfolio as leverage. And it was like constantly building. Like, I don't ever remember a time where I wasn't building my portfolio or, like my resume. And. And yeah, then I worked agency life. Feel like I dove into that and that kind of set me up, I would say, for where I am now in terms of the hard skills and the connections in order to leverage that to kind of move to New York.
- [24:12]
A
The agency experience is always one that a lot of people can kind of stick their nose up and say, ugh, like, I don't want to do that. Hard as it is in the sense of it being you're the jack of all trades and almost like the master of none. You do love learn a lot. And as someone who has also come from different background but in an agency format, I do not wish that experience away because I do feel it gave me the foundation to be able to do what I'm doing now and also trial different aspects of the industry and dip your toe in a way where it's like, oh, I'm doing a bit of strategy, but then I'm also doing investment buying. It gives you more scope to be able to work out what you actually like and where your passion points are, so you can then pursue that later on.
- [24:52]
B
Definitely.
- [24:53]
A
Was there a point when you were working in the agency where you were like, okay, this is what I want to do on my own, or did that just come about naturally?
- [25:02]
B
Yes. So originally I was. I was an intern and I worked for free for like, I think eight weeks while I was doing my uni degree and, like working two jobs. I think I cried like, every single day. Honestly, I was like, this is what it is. Okay, perfect. Am I going to do this for the next 60 years of my life? Great. But it did teach me, me a lot of hard skills. So I learned like my paid media skills, like Google Analytics, SMS marketing, all of the kind of, like, hard skills. I would say the point where I worked out that I wanted to do my own thing was when transparently, I was almost given, like, the numbers of what I could be making and what my salary was. And I think at the time I was probably only making like 55 grand including super, or like 60 grand including super. So probably around like 50 or 60. And I would see the numbers Come in and be like, okay, we're charging XYZ per call and then I'm going home with like whatever. It was like 20 something dollars an hour and I always wanted more. I know that sounds probably a little bit greedy and a little bit moreish, but I always knew that I could do more. And that was probably the point that I thought, okay, if you're running one to one calls through an agency, it's almost like having a manager. They're just like taking, taking the cut.
- [26:13]
A
Taking a cut.
- [26:14]
B
If you're building the relationships and doing all the work and putting the creative output. I was like, this isn't paid media, this is creative strategy. So at the end of the day they can't be inside your brain, they can't have the ideas that you have versus say more of a data analytical skill set. And that was probably the tipping point where I thought, oh no, I can quit and do this by myself.
- [26:36]
A
I want to come back to that point around strategy and it being your ideas are essentially what is winning braves and winning opportunities as well. It must feel it's a serious skill. To be honest. It's something I feel like you almost can't teach as well. You either strategically have it or you don't. That that's my opinion in this instance. I agree with you. The hard skill thing, you can obviously learn that. But at the end of the day it's hard to teach strategy and it's hard to teach that instinct as well. I do want to talk about Grilled for a sec because you did share that campaign on LinkedIn and it was a moment that I feel a lot of people perhaps online were like, whoa, okay, beyond building your own profile, beyond the general context you'd given about the brands you'd worked with, you'd shared really tangible results and it was quite insightful. So from what we know and what you shared on LinkedIn, you grew the grilled TikTok channel by 350% simply by making the account private. Why do you think this worked so well? Can you talk us through the strategy for sure?
- [27:38]
B
Firstly, I'll say like, there's a lot of like, I give so much credit to Grill for being so open. Even though they are such a massive like corporate brand, they do give me a lot of freedom and I think that's what I can cook. And in terms of why it was successful was because while everyone was kind of playing the community or the pranks or the trends and trying to kind of copy everyone else, our notion was, let's Play on fomo. We know that people love to be a part of something, but what happens when they can't be a part of it? It is like this feeling of FOMO and how are we going to create that? No corporate brand would ever let say a marketing say. Even if it's an intern or it's a coordinator, it's an account manager. If someone said, oh, let's put our account on Private. If you're trying to grow from a brand awareness perspective from the higher ups, the first thing they will say is no. Because TikTok is a reach platform, there's zero chance we're putting our account on Private. It's not going to attract anyone. All of this stuff. And then we're. When I kind of pitched the idea and I actually took Inspo from Not Chris Olsen, that's. Chris Olsen is basically a creator. And then he has another account called Notch Chris Olsen that he put on Private because he was getting so much hate on his first page. And then it was like a very big community. When I looked at his engagement on his page that had so many more millions of followers, the comments were a lot less. And when I looked at the not Chris Olsen, the comments were I think like triple. And then thought, no brand would ever approve this. So let me just pitch it. And then they approved it and then we got to working and I guess that's where the creative part comes into it. I'll basically lay out all the video Ideas, say there's 40 videos that need to go live across a two month period. They all have a purpose. Like nothing is being posted unintentionally or just off the bat. Everything has a purpose. Whether that's to drive comments, whether that's to drive shares. Because we wanted to drive shares so that when you shared it with someone, it would say like, you can't view this post now. They're receiving FOMO from their friends. So there was all these kind of like elements working at the same time. And then we were just able to. It's almost like a security guard and like a bouncer at the door. Like he's like letting two people in. He's like, no, you can't come in. Then this person, you can come in.
- [29:47]
A
And I feel like I'm at Electric with the door girl. She's like, three of your friends, you can't come in.
- [29:55]
B
I'm like, oh, your shoes. She's like, do I like these? No. So we would like let a certain amount of people into the club every day. And of course it wasn't like, oh, this person or this person. It was just in order. We would say, okay, say 50 people will come in today, then 150 people next day. But we had a post ready to go that would say, should we let more people in? We're about to do a giveaway. And then the insiders would start bonding because they're the insiders. That's their commonality. So coming back to the popup, when you go to the popup, you know that this other person loves Lord, so you can instantly start talking about that. So people in the comments would say, no, don't let other people in. Like this is our thing. And then they would build like camaraderie within the group. So there was like a lot of, I guess different elements all kind of going at once, which makes made it successful.
- [30:37]
A
Were there times where you had to be reactive to what was playing out in real time?
- [30:41]
B
Yeah, definitely. And that's where their team was. So great. I would just honestly WhatsApp them and say, hey, this is happening. Or they'd say, hey, this is happening. And I would say, can you, you know, create this video with this text overlay? And they would just do it the next day. So a lot of the time when people say, oh, how was working with this big brand? Or how is working with this big brand? So yeah, it's great for say the LinkedIn, but it's sometimes it's not the best to work with because you're planning their content a month and a half in advance. It doesn't feel as like and reactive. So it's almost finding the client that will allow you the creative freedom to cook. Basically.
- [31:14]
A
Great segue because there must be some campaigns you've looked at and you've just, you know, cringe. What are the common mistakes you see in campaigns that miss the mark?
- [31:23]
B
I would say this is maybe my Scorpio tendency. I don't like a lot of what people do marketing wise. So when I do like it, I know I know what I don't like basically. So I would say a lot of the time it feels, feels fake firstly or very, very performative in terms of, oh, they saw someone else do this, it worked well for them and now they're going to try it. So a lot of the time clients will say, I want to do what Grill did. Like do we just make our account on private. But they're a small business. I'm thinking no, that like, that's not how it works. And I think on TikTok and especially I know, Talia and I touched on this in one of our videos, but it almost feels like everyone feels the same to me sometimes. Times of oh, they posted this dancing trend. Now this person's posting the dancing trend but with different text overlay and thinking it's going to work for them. Like I don't feel like there's a lot of originality in the space at the moment, which is probably the thing that annoys me the most. Or it feels like it came from like ChatGPT, like the actual idea or the crux of it. Yeah.
- [32:23]
A
I also think the way that trends are moving so quickly, it's there and all of a sudden it's gone and then we're on to the next thing. It makes everything feel feel the same. I'm finding that particularly with different tick tock trends at the moment, I'm also finding my own social habits. I'm actually pulling off tick tock because I'm finding it not a super fun place to show up, which is really interesting. I'm finding myself gravitating more towards Instagram, which is maybe because historically it's more of a curated space where I've been able to also what's the way to explain it? I maybe because there's more of my friends there, like actual friends. Whereas on TikTok it's like your community, actual community. Whereas on TikTok I'm finding it's more of a social community. But even then when it's hitting people, I'm like, you're not in my community and I'm reaching you. I'm not. And that's not really what I want to be doing. I'm just pulling back a little bit in that space, which I'm noticing a bit amongst my friends as well.
- [33:19]
B
Yeah, I guess when we talk about like authenticity, I really do think, and I'm probably going to butcher the saying, like I butcher every single saying. But it's almost like people aren't standing for anything anymore. Like they are curating their feed so much so to be a certain, look a certain way or be a certain way. And yes, a hundred percent I do that. From a client perspective. If I didn't have to rely on, say, my marketing side, I would be a lot more controversial about the things I say and do and put my opinion a lot more forward. But sometimes I'll scroll through TikTok and it will feel like I'm watching the same person's feed. But I'm on my for you post page, everyone. And I'm honestly victim to this, that they speak the same with their hands, they say the same intros, they say, come with me to do this or come with me, I literally do this as well. So it just becomes almost like a content churn and burn and people just like outputting everything. So I so know what you mean in terms of going back to Instagram and feeling like you're not going to just get comments that say love or pretty or, you know, just like superficial.
- [34:18]
A
Kind of stuff, or the accidental three heart eyes emoji, which is the generic one that they bring up so that you can just share it straight, straight away. In your opinion, what do you think is driving online social trends right now?
- [34:31]
B
Micro influencers, for sure. I definitely feel like bigger influencers have these management companies and you'll see this across a lot of influences, specifically in the U.S. like, I honestly don't get targeted by too many Australian influencers that I don't follow. But you'll see if they're managed by one company that week, all of them put out the same exact video, but with a different spin that showcases their personality. But they've ripped it from a really small creator that kind of went viral for it. And it is just like this copy and paste play that they give to all the influencers. This is trending. You should do this. Oh, Touch Grass is trending. So you should say that in your content. Or if, like, a dance is going viral, let's apply it to you and your boyfriend, because people will love that. Like, it feels, I guess there's a formula.
- [35:16]
A
It's almost like this is the formula. Apply it to your content and push it out.
- [35:21]
B
Yeah. Like I always say to Tiles, and this is honestly, do not take this the wrong way in terms of, like, me trying to say, oh, I know this, or I know that, but I'll say to her, if I post this type of video, we'll definitely get like a million views. Or if I post this type of video, it'll at least do 500,000 by tomorrow morning. And it really is a formula. Like, you know when something's going to go viral and a lot of the time clients will say, hey, we want to go viral, but it's like, what, what does that actually mean, though? Like, what, what's the purpose? Uh, so when these small creators do it, people love it because it feels very authentic. They have an opinion, they're standing, and then it kind of gets recycled. It's almost like the Devil Wears Prada. You know that bit where she says, like, starts up here and then it trickles down the cycles and then it lands here at the top, really is the micro influencers who have a personality. They have nothing to lose. And they are a little bit more maybe like controversial or funny, witty. They have a really great sense of humor, they're chronically online. And then it gets trickled down to all of the like, huge influences, say with like 10 million followers, who then kind of like turn it out. In my opinion, you know, I'm part of the problem. I'm never going to be, so I am part of the problem.
- [36:23]
A
Who are some of your favorite micro influencers to follow?
- [36:26]
B
That's a good question. I feel like a lot of them are in the us. This is probably another tip I would say from a TikTok perspective. I don't actually know their names, I just know their content. So there's like this one girl who works a golf cart and she just films her conversations like she has with these people. And it's so entertaining because it's someone's job. Like, it's. It's like watching a 9 to 5. I would say another one. This is probably, probably. This is like a personal type of Melanie Sutherland. I think she does a really great job of showcasing what it's like to work a 9 to 5 and also just like try and balance fitness and that kind of lifestyle. And then in terms of funny creators, honestly, people that have like no username but they come up and you never follow them, but you're like, you're really funny. I do consume a lot of content, but I would say a lot of it is based in the U.S. yeah.
- [37:17]
A
I love Mel as well. She's so good.
- [37:19]
B
Her vlogs are so addicting. I'm like, you're gonna blur. She's gonna go crazy.
- [37:23]
A
I hope so. I know what you mean though, that I.
- [37:26]
B
It's not even.
- [37:26]
A
I follow them as well. They just keep coming up on my page because the algorithm is obviously serving them to me. There's this one girl in Sydney at the moment, I don't know her username. She just posts like still images with text overlay that is super niche and super, like culture just hit the culture in Australia and we'll just capture the essence of it. Like she just did this one on the AFL grant Grand Final, talking about how, tell me you went to a private school, you've got an MCC membership, yada yada yada. And it was just so bang on. And she's also campaigning at the moment to try and be invited to the Ralph Lauren marquee at the Australian Open and she's like sharing all these old school photos of her by being a child at the Ralph Lauren factories and like wearing polos when she was like a kid. It's just the cutest and the funniest thing. And I'm like, who is this random person that's just popped up on my feedback but now just keeps coming back.
- [38:14]
B
And back and so agree to that point. Another one is Sam Seedsman. If you don't follow him, go follow him. He just posts funny stuff that you know is culturally relevant, but it's just showcases personality really, really well. And to your point of saying I don't even know who this person is, that's something I always say if you're trying to build a platform, like if someone forgot your name, how would they describe your content? And that's exactly what you should work towards first versus you know, I want to have 100,000 followers. I have a million followers. I always forget everyone's name if I don't know what you look like or the videos you're making. Say for example, if I forgot Mel's name, I would say she starts every video of like day in the life of a global partnerships manager and she's always walking in heels. Or if someone's like always cutting fruit, they're doing that. So almost like working out what that is for you in a bubble and then creating content pieces around that that add to that Persona. Persona for you, I think where people like over complicated and get like very confused on where do I start if I'm gonna start posting. And like that is where if I'm at coffee with a friend and I forget your name. How am I describing what you do, if that makes sense.
- [39:19]
A
No, it makes a lot of sense now. We've spoken about Talia a bit in today's interview. As you said, you reference we a lot. She is your best friend. You guys have built a, I guess a joint profile online as well. Well, mostly centered around your fairly unconventional approach to money. You share all your money so everything you get paid and everything she gets paid goes into one account every month and you take your expenses from there. Can you tell us about how this started?
- [39:48]
B
It was actually my idea, which is kind of crazy given she is the more type A one. I was listening to one of the episodes you did about work friends and how when you start as work friends, it's always just like, kind of like utmost respect. So I actually used to be Talia's manager. That's how this whole thing started and then obviously we got access to numbers, this, that, the other. And I was like, that's my girl, let's go, you know, see you later. But because of that, I think we were very used to working with money and numbers and always had a lot of respect for each other and were willing to work hard for each other in order for the business to succeed. So that's probably foundationally why it works. Which is probably the biggest question we get asked all the time. Time from there, when we were both freelancing, a lot of the time I would be referring her to do paid ads and she would be referring me for the creative side. So much so that we started working on the same clients. And it got to the point where I said, we're going to be paying rent together, we're going to be living together. We were sharing a bed for the first three months. We moved to New York to save money. We are attached at the hit. We go for coffee, breakfast, lunch, dinner, whatever. And we're just doing. You go, igo. At this point we have the same clients who pay us similar rates. Rates. Why don't we just pull everything together? And it wasn't ever a long term plan or a short term plan. It was just, let's do this for now. It works really well and then we'll just go from there. And two and a half years later, it's still, still kicking. So yeah, we share all of our money. I get paid, she gets half of it. She gets paid or she does get paid, she has a full time job, I get half of it. And yeah, it's just something that works really well for us.
- [41:24]
A
What's the usual response you get from people when you tell them them about this unconventional financial setup on the Internet.
- [41:32]
B
Is like mass hysteria, but in real life with people who know us, no, they don't bat an eyelid. They're like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Whereas online it's, you never know what this person could do to you. All of this stuff, you know, and we just have the utmost trust and respect. And we don't even say we're like sisters. I'm like, we're just like that next level of trust and respect. And also have very similar money mindsets. Like, she's not going to go crazy, I'm not going to go crazy. We like to enjoy our life. We love food, so we spend a lot of money on food. We just have a very similar way of living and a similar mindset about. You go, I go like, we're never the type of friends that say, like, Venmo me for the drinks or Venmo me for dinner. Like, we'll just get this dinner. Like, you know those people that ask you to Venmo them for their coffee or say like, my, my worst nightmare is being in a friendship where you go to the coffee shop and they go, you go first. Like, you order first and then you order first and pay a latte and then they order their latte and pay. I'm like, we just don't have anyone in our life like that and could never be like that. So I think when people can't relate to what we do, I'm like, yeah, but we would never be you and you would never be us, like in terms of our mindset around how we operate through this world. So that's fine. You know, it's just acknowledging you have.
- [42:46]
A
Different money values and also a different way of approaching your finances. Answers We've been talking a lot about the massive brands that you work with. You create content for both your personal channels, YouTube, TikTok pages and joint accounts for both you and Talia. Do you feel a lot of pressure juggling multiple career avenues?
- [43:05]
B
I don't know if the word I would use is pressure. I would say, coming back to our conversation before, that's why I don't showcase a lot of the results that I get for my clients purely based on the fact that that does add more pressure because people think, oh, she got the results for this client, so I'm going to be exactly. If I copy and paste and hire her, I'm going to get the results here. I almost feel like with our Too Much Talking channel, which is just, honestly, it's just shit posting at this point. It's more of a creative outlet for me to trial things that I would want to do for my clients. So if I see, say, for example, I'll try a lot of things and see if they go viral and be like, okay, cool, how could I iterate that and then apply it to my client strategy? And it's almost like an escape versus my work being very, very intense. So, yeah, I would say that the pressure more so comes from me showcasing results and then people thinking they're going to get the exact same result. But I never feel a pressure on the content side for my personal brand, whether that's Talia's Instagram stories, my, you know, our YouTube or anything like that, because we're not reliant on that as a source of income. So it still is fun and that's why I always say I would never be a full time content creator because I think the minute you become more dependable on the income from being a content creator, for me personally, I think think I it would lose its kind of charm versus knowing oh I'm using my brain over here and then this is fun. And I really enjoy like talking to people and connecting with people in this way.
- [44:31]
A
That makes a lot of sense. Do you have a surprising tip hack or trick that you can share with our listeners that has enhanced your career? I know you shared one previously with the Swap, but is there anything else you can share with our listeners?
- [44:45]
B
More mindset related I would say I've spoken about this previously on my TikTok. I am a former pessimist so I definitely, definitely think working on my mindset and almost laying things out. I like to use the analogy of floors and ceilings and essentially your floor is the absolute minimum things that you can do and your ceiling is the maximum where you would experience burnout. And as you kind of build in your career, your floor starts to increase, so much so that you eventually get to your ceiling. But that's like your new floor. And I guess another way of putting this is like the goalpost is always moving. But I would say that I used to think having more clients meant that I would be more successful. And then I realized when I started putting myself in rooms with successful people, they actually are slower because they're making more informed decisions. So they won't think, oh, just because she has 20 clients in her books, she's super successful. No, they have three really great clients who are going to catapult them to that next level. And almost just shifting my mindset of what you've been taught your whole life, whether that's at agency cramming in more clients, whether that's in rooms of people who speak about having oh, I'm so, so busy. I'm so busy all the time and I have no time for anything else but work or whatever it is. It's almost unlearning those behaviors to be more so instead of looking around like looking up like tiles and I always say that like don't look around, like look up to where you want to be. Probably be more mindset related more than like a hack or something that I did that I, I think got me to where I am today. Well, it kind of comes back to.
- [46:20]
A
Your point earlier around the quality of a quantity when you were looking at clients and the biggest client doesn't necessarily mean the biggest budget. It's a similar sort of approach you could apply to anything in your life really. And just being a bit more thoughtful about your choices in that way. I feel like that's something I really try to live by. Speaking of mindset, something that we're keen to share with our listeners is how do you, how do you avoid burnout? You've got so much going on. What is your tip on avoiding that burnout or feeling like everything's too overwhelming?
- [46:54]
B
This is probably, actually probably a little bit toxic, but optimizing work into my normal schedule. So for example, I know that every single morning go for an hour walk and I'll reply to all of my comments on TikTok. But I won't do that when I'm like in my bed because that's considered like doom scrolling essentially. So your habit stacking pretty one. I'm not gonna sit here and be like I'm working all the time. Like of course there's times where I'm just, you know, chilling. But in terms of I would say that even though I post a lot of my life online, Tali and I have this thing that we do. It's called phones in bag. And basically it is knowing that whenever we're in a social setting, our phone is in our bag and you're not touching your phone. And so anything that you need to get done needs to be done until. Until that point where your phone goes in your bag. So I would say my combat for burnout and this is probably an introvert, like a true, true introvert. Worst nightma surrounding myself with people who aren't online. So I would say that 90% of our friends don't post on social media, 95% of them don't post on social media. So when we go to hang out with them and have couch time with them and phones are in bags, that's almost rejuvenating my, I guess like creative side or just more being relaxed. And I would say that like counteracts burnout. I'm not someone who needs to have like a spa day or a full day off or go on holiday to experience like a feeling of relaxation. I would say that more so comes from the people I'm like surrounding myself with and the energy that I get from yeah, I guess like chilling in my home with my friends.
- [48:21]
A
So just taking a little bit of time for yourself. Research.
- [48:24]
B
Yeah. And exercise probably. I know that's like very common to say but didn't want to, you know, skip that one. But then again when you're exercising, when you're walking, you're replying to your comments. So I would say that Tyler and I actually don't experience burnout a lot. And we had this conversation before I came here because she said, Bri's probably going to ask you, like, if you're working, you're doing this and you're doing YouTube and blah, blah, like how do you combat that? And we spoke about it for about an hour and said that I often don't feel that feeling of burnout because I almost know that it's worth it. Like that feeling of being exhausted and not in a toxic positivity way where you're sitting there being like, I'm so grateful that I feel exhausted. It's more so like I know that all of this work is compounding and then it will again catapult me to that next level of where I want to be in say six months time or a year's time.
- [49:10]
A
It's also important to acknowledge that people have different motivators and different levels of. I guess what pushes them to a point of, and I'm saying this with like bunny quotations, is burnout. There's nothing wrong with being someone who doesn't experience that. I do feel on social media at the moment there is this trend as well of people oversharing, how hard everything is in a working sense. And this burnout culture has become a bit of a, you know, buzzword. So if that's something that you, you don't experience, there's nothing wrong with that. You've got a lot going on. What is the next biggest goal for you?
- [49:45]
B
That is a good one and something I can't tell. No. Watch this space. My next biggest goal at the moment. I'm working with a lot of brands that are trying to enter the US market. And honestly my goals right now are getting myself into rooms and in conversations with people who are more so working in the CPG space. So consumer product goods, be that if my clients are launching into Ulta or Walmart or Sephora, like I want to be more across distribution channels than marketing, like right now. And because I am a freelancer, like I don't have a mentor and I don't learn from anyone at the moment. So I almost want to learn something new in that space. And I think distribution would be really cool because when we look at how brands are exploding and becoming, becoming like multi million to billion dollar companies, like a poppy who just got acquired for over $2 billion, it is through distribution. And that's something that I'm not familiar in. So I'm like almost keen to learn something new now that I feel like marketing and TikTok is has been kind of like an always on for so many years. So that's probably the next thing is honestly upskilling.
- [50:55]
A
We have a very similar mindset when it comes to upskilling. I'm always looking at something being like, how can I do that? And I always, I want to learn more. I also love this idea of never stop learning. Like, people get older and they think, oh, I've hit the capacity of everything I could learn. I always want to challenge that and always want to approach the next phase of my life being like, what don't I know that I can add to my toolkit, Whether it be a hard skill or even, you know, just an experience. I feel like you and I are similar in that sense.
- [51:23]
B
So agree because someone commented, which is honestly so lovely, but on my marketing page and said, smartest person in every room. And I said, absolutely not. That is never where I want to be. Like, I always want to be, like, not the smartest person in the room. I always want to be learning from other people because, yeah, there is so much to learn. And that's why a lot of the time, like tiles and I have dipped in and out of full time work and then freelance work is because we know we need to learn certain skills and we'll do that for a period of time and then once that's done, it's like onto the next. I remember I was speaking about this in my TikTok before I came here, when you reached out to me when I first moved to New York and you were like, send me your service name deck. And you basically said, you need to redo this, this, this and this. And I remember it so distinctly thinking, like, why is she doing this? Like, why is she helping me? And I think since then, to your point, like, we are very similar in a lot of ways. Whether that's like upskilling or wanting to branch out, meet new people, but also being a bit of like a black cat at the same time. So I so know what you mean.
- [52:27]
A
I'm on the cusp of I'm a Sagittarius, but I'm on the cusp of being a Scorpio. So it's probably that I have like three planets where I'm a Scorpio. So it all checks out.
- [52:35]
B
We're aligned. We're super aligned.
- [52:38]
A
Okay, I want you to finish off with your big Scorpio energy. We love a hot take at Stylish. And we want to end the interview with one. So can you tell us, Caitlyn Scorpio Emiko, what's your controversial fashion take?
- [52:53]
B
Okay, this one actually is going to piss off so many people because.
- [52:57]
A
Great.
- [52:57]
B
You perfect me. Not controversial at all ever. Um, so I think wired headphones. Let's talk about them. I think for over 50% of people that use them, it's so performative. I'm like, this is. I get it. It's to add to the outfit. But you can tell when it's performative and then people have just like taken it and run and thought, this is my biggest fashion accessory. I'm just not. I'm not about them. I'm not about them unless it makes sense and you've been using them for years and you're like a die hard wired headphones person. But sometimes it. It does feel inauthentic. And when I see it and it looks inauthentic, like the whole outfit's out for me. Do you know what I mean? So that's probably like my fashion hot take is that it shouldn't be pulling your outfit together.
- [53:41]
A
My controversial take is if you're having to tell me about it or post about it, it's not something that's genuinely very authentic because the people who aren't are the ones.
- [53:52]
B
Yeah, the OG ones are talking about it. So if I see a girl, if I'm, you know, near my house in Brooklyn and I see someone, she has a really cool outfit, I'm like, no chance. You posted a story of this. Like, I'll literally see people post it and it's not plugged into anything. It's like dangling. I'm like, what is. What is going on here? And sorry, that's probably going to annoy, like, a lot of people who do it for the performative reason. But if you're resonating and you feel a little bit angered, potentially you are being a bit performative.
- [54:16]
A
There we go. We've got them. No, that's why we have a controversial take. And it's been by design. It's an opinion. You're allowed to have one. So, Caitlyn, thank you so much for joining us. It has been such a pleasure chatting to you. You are in New York, I'm in Melbourne. But I feel like we've managed to make this work really well. I'm staring at you on a screen. I wish I could give you a hug in person, but I just want to say thank you so much for being with us. And I cannot wait for the stylish listeners to just soak up all of your expertise and also your honesty. It's really rare that you have someone get behind Mike and share a lot of honesty and transparency about how they got to where they are, but also, you know, their tips, tricks, and opinions. So thank you for giving us so much.
- [54:57]
B
No, thank you for having me. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal.
- [55:15]
C
Hello, everyone, it's Jamie Laing here. Now. Can I just grab you for just one second to tell you about my podcast, Great Company? It's out every Wednesday, and I'm joined by someone I really admire for a great conversation. It's a space to share, to be inspired, to learn, to be moved, even laugh. There are so many things that I get from it, and there are no gimmicks. It's just me, great guests, and you. You are the most important person. You, the listener. Listen and subscribe to Great Company with me, Jamie Laing. New episodes out every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts.