B (3:24)

We love that. And if you ever want a sneak peek at what's going to be at the upfronts, I strongly suggest coming to the stylish in person events because Ray was absolutely loose lipping, telling everyone what was to come in 2026. Someone came up to me and said, I can't wait for X, Y and Z. And I went, that's the first I've done.

A (3:41)

Don't reveal loose lip. I just get excited. I'm very excited.

B (3:45)

She is very excited, which is a really good segue into, I guess, you know, obviously you're excited about what's happening at the moment. Ray, you're obviously very passionate about your own career, but we had a lot of career focused questions, as we mentioned, so I think let's dive in. Let's get into it.

A (4:01)

Let's get into it.

B (4:02)

So we're going to break up our episode into two segments, and the first segment we're going to be answering questions from those of you who are starting out in your career, and then those of you who are maybe a little further along, a little more established, but still wanting some advice.

A (4:16)

Yes. But before we get into that, though, we did throw up a couple of polls and there are a few stats that we want to share. So the first one was we asked you guys how happy you are in your current job, and 39% of you said somewhat happy, 24% said very happy, 26 said it's fine, and 11% said not happy at all. So quite an interesting split there. Mads, what did you make of this? Was this surprising to you?

B (4:42)

It was surprising to me. I'm A reformed pessimist. So I used to be a glass half empty, but now I'm a glasses full. But taking my sample segment of my own friendship group, I was surprised by these stats because I would say more than 11% of my friends are unhappy in their jobs. So I was a little bit surprised. I mean, I was thrilled for the community, but I then started to go, oh, maybe I need to be giving my friends better advice. What about you?

A (5:03)

Yeah, interesting, because I really honed in on the somewhat happy. So 39% of you said somewhat happy feels a little bit indifferent, a little bit ambivalent. It's like, I'm not quite sure. So it's kind of sitting in the middle of. I'm working in a space. My assumption is that they're working in their job. They don't love it, but they also don't hate it. It's an interesting place to be sitting. Coming back to the conversation we had in the launch episode of our fortnightly Friday episode, a lot of what we focus on, Mads, was how we perhaps went from jobs where we were sitting in that position as well and have landed in the jobs where we're feeling really passionate. What's interesting is reflecting on our own care and how at those times, in various times in our career, we've felt that where perhaps we weren't in the job that we would consider the most, you know, what's the word?

B (5:48)

Like, it wasn't fulfilling or the most inspiring, you know?

A (5:53)

So, yeah, it's interesting to see that a lot of people were at that point in the career that we were, and I would argue we're the most happy we are now in our current role. So I'm really excited to hopefully be able to share some insights, some inspiration to get that 39% to a place where they're like, fuck, yeah, I love my job and I'm so, so happy with that next step.

B (6:11)

Ye. And we also did ask our listeners whether they'd made a career pivot, because I think a lot of the questions that came up were about how to make it or having interest in wanting to do so. And we asked our audience whether or not they'd made their own career pivot in the last 12 months. 71% said no, and 29% said yes, which I thought was quite a high stat.

A (6:31)

A third of them. Well, almost a third. Sorry. Really, really ambitious. And, you know, it's not easy taking that next step. So kudos to you guys. It's a mammoth effort to, you know, take the Leap and try different and really push yourself out there. I'd be keen to deepen that a little and understand how happy they are as well in making that decision. Was it the right one? We also wanted to know whether you feel like your career reflects who you are as a person. 50% of you said partly, 24% said, yes, it's a direct reflection of who you are. And 16% said it was very separate. And finally, 10% said it used to. Do these results surprise you, Mads, or are they in line with what you expected?

B (7:12)

It's probably in line with what I suspected. I think half of the audience saying they partly agree. I think that makes sense. It's like, you know, it's a big part of your life, but it's not your entire life. I understand that. I also think it has a lot to do with your personal life. Do you have a partner? Do you have children? Like, what hobbies do you have? I think that defines a lot. Whether someone identifies entirely with their job is how much of your life is your job, how much of your time.

A (7:37)

Is spent with work and how much that fulfills you. I think there are scenarios where a lot of people, their job defines them, and then there are others who are. This is just one part of me. I am multifaceted. I get a lot of fulfillment outside of work. And I think that's a really exciting place to be as well because you're feeling well balanced. You feel like you're not having to prioritize work because you don't have anything else going for you. So that's also a really nice indication.

B (8:00)

Totally agree.

A (8:00)

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B (9:06)

So, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, we want to kind of break this out into two parts, because what came through really strongly was that there was, I guess, a desire for advice for those starting out in their careers. Maybe they've just finished their degree. Some people had finished their masters. Often one of the hardest parts of building your career and building a career you love is getting your foot in the door in the first place. That can be a real challenge. So this is our, I guess, our best career advice for those who are starting out. And we wanted to get into it. So the first question that we had was, I'm a few years into my career, but considering a pivot, should I pick a new career based on passion, or do I need to think bigger picture?

A (9:47)

All right, I'm coming in hot with this one. I think this is not about passion. Passion is a luxury. At this point in your career, you really need to pull yourself out bird's eye and look at what is the opportunity that is going to extend your skill set. It's going to push you forward in your career, whether that be in the form of new experience or a new title or an opportunity that you're like, oh, I feel like this could be a stepping stone. That is the point of the career where I feel like that is an important decision to make. It's also a few years in is still early days, guys. This is still a place where you can be scrappy. You can really focus on building out your experience and the fundamentals. I feel passion is a luxury at this point. What do you think, Mads?

B (10:28)

I think passion is such a loaded word, and I have such a an issue with it because I think where I struggle is the word is so loaded that people assume passion means you get up every day so pumped to go to work, so elated, so happy, and that's just not realistic. The same way it's not realistic for every day to be a great day. Like, you're not going to get up every day, and like, you know, the Disney princess birds are chiming, and you're, like, happy to go to work. So I think sometimes people get caught up with the idea that passion equals getting up with, like, a zest for life and your job every single day. And I Don't think that's realistic. The longevity of your career and the like, fundamentals are so important. And for me, you know, I used to work on yogurt. Like, do you honestly think that I open my fridge and I'm like, I love yoghurt? No, but what I loved was working for a global brand. I loved working for a brand where I could learn how to localize in market. I became really passionate about how in a really, like, stale, old, mundane category, you could create excitement and disruption. Like, I think there sometimes is, like, I love makeup, so I have to go and work in makeup. No, like, sometimes passion breeds out of what you're working on, who you're working with, what you're working towards, not what you're working on or in. That's a really important differentiation and delineation I would really urge people to think about.

A (11:53)

No, I love that. I also, when I meet with people over coffee and have a conversation with them, generally they're at this point where they're either one to two years in their career and starting to get a little shaky. Something that I always say to them is, your first or second job doesn't define you, it actually shapes you. And coming back to your point, Mads, it's about gaining that experience. You know, in your case, it's working on a brand that gave you that exposure of working on a global brand. You know, being able to lead a marketing strategy. And we spoke about this a lot in our first career episode. Sometimes working on the unsexy product or at the unsexy company is what gives you the most experience and gives you the least amount of red tape as well. You know, the glossy brands, the really blue high chip brands, generally come with a bit more red tape. So I would embrace the scrappy. I would see this as an opportunity in your career to really shape who you are and what you like and let the passion piece come later. Don't stress if you're not there yet and feeling like you're having that skip in your step and jumping out of bed every day, being like, I absolutely love what I do. You still need to like it and enjoy it and be in a safe working environment. I do think that passion piece at this point in your career is a luxury.

B (13:01)

Agree. All right, what was question two, Ray?

A (13:03)

Question two, do you have any advice for women in their 20s just starting out who want to stand out in the job market today? I love this question, Mads. You've jumped in, gone. Yes. What advice do you have?

B (13:15)

I'm chomping at the bit about this because I've had a lot of experience interviewing juniors for roles and or people entering the market. I don't love using the term junior or mid or senior, but just for, you know, illustration purposes. Curiosity gets you so far in an interview as does knowledge. If you go into an interview, let's say you're interviewing for a social media coordinator role. If you have not gone and looked at that brand's Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, do they have a Pinterest, do they have a YouTube? And you haven't thought about your point of view of each of those, what have you shown them? Like you have to be prepared to have questions asked of you and have a point of view. But equally curiosity is so important to me as an interviewer when I ever have had someone in front of me ask me questions, what do you think you guys are doing well? What do you think you could be doing better? What do you like about your current social strategy? Where are the areas you think you could be improving? What brand do you really like seeing at the moment? Who do you think's disrupting? Don't just go prepared to like have all guns blazing at you and not ask them anything. Because I do think someone who is genuinely curious and asking me as an interviewer hard hitting questions from a business perspective is so setting them apart verse you know, someone who's just sitting there waiting for every answer to come at them. Also, top piece of advice that I actually got in an interview that I was so engaged with. It was actually an interview with Bigger when I was interviewing for Vegemite. I asked so many questions but I did not write any of the answers down. And when I got the job, my manager at the time who was incredible said to me hot tip, if you ever interview again. Which he said, I hope you don't cause you'll just stay working here was always bring a pen and paper. He's like, I don't care if you're doodling on it, just look like you're writing down the answer. Now I have a weirdly good memory with someone regurgitating information to me. But I thought that was a really good piece of advice as well and it shows you're engaged and I understand now being more senior why that was his advice.

A (15:11)

I would wrap up what you've said in with the term critical thinking when you're going into an interview, what you've, what you've explained to me is someone being able to demonstrate that they're curious as you said, but Also, they have a really, really deep understanding of the business that they're working for, and they're able to demonstrate that they are critical thinkers and that conversation can then flow quite naturally. What's really interesting to me, when I reflect on the best interviews I've had with different team members or even in previous jobs, the best interviews are the ones that don't feel like an interview, where the conversation ebbs and flows. And it's interesting because I think that's a really good indicator of someone who is an active listener, someone who is an active listener and can build in interviews. When I get to the end of the interview and I feel, hmm, who was being interviewed here? Was it me or was it you? And that's a really nice place to be. As someone who is employing people, I also really, really echo what you said about doing your research. I am blown away about how many interviews I've had over the past 10 to 12 years in my career where I've interviewed people and they haven't even done a quick sear of our Instagram or done a sweep of the brand partners that we've worked with. I'm not just talking about Shameless Media, specifically where they can't then come to that conversation and reflect on a campaign that we've done and share and showcase their thoughts or what they think we could do better. It happens a lot.

B (16:34)

It's having a point of view. Yes. I've also got one hot tip. This is the best thing. Someone has replied to me in an interview. Now, there is no point in your job that you are going to be asked a question on the spot and have to have the answer immediately like that. That's not real life. And I think that's probably the pitfall of interviews. One thing I had someone say to me once, and it was genius. What she said to me was, I don't have an answer for you right now. I'd love to go away and have a think about it and come back to you. Yeah, that is how real life works. I was like, oh, my God. It was like when Sensei, like, we had a role reversal. I was like, genius. So a girlfriend recently was going for a very, very important role. She has been building to this for 15 years of her career. And she's like, I really stuffed up an answer. And I said, there is. In sending an email to the person interviewing you and saying, hi, da, da, da. Thank you so much for your time. I've had some time to digest your question. I don't feel I answered it best if I had my time again. This is what I would have loved to have said if someone followed up. I think back to your point, Ray. Critical thinking, initiative, care, consideration. That's how the real world actually operates. So I think that's a really great tip. If you feel you mumble in an interview or you stumble, there's something you don't get to the point of, really go back and just thank them for their time. Always follow up by thanking the HR person or the person who's interviewed you, or ideally both. And if there's anything you wish you had have touched on, go back and mention that as well.

A (18:01)

Agreed. One more thing I want to touch on quickly and I'll be super speedy with this. I also think it's really important to ask what the salary is in your first interview. I cannot stress enough how many women wait until the last interview because they don't want to be seen as being pushy or they don't want to be seen as being money focused. The girlies need to start with that. You need to be up top. If they're not disclosing in their job description what that salary bracket is, that needs to be asked by the end of your first interview. And I empower, empower, empower the girlies to do that because I cannot stress enough how often it doesn't happen. And it really. We just need to break up with this belief that we can't ask those things in an interview.

B (18:38)

And that's an innate female thing, which is a perfect segue into what came up probably the most, which was how to ask for a raise. So let's say you've got that first position or you're in your second role. I mean, it applies to anyone, really. Ray, take it away.

A (18:54)

Look, this is always a hard thing to do. And again, it's really difficult from a female perspective because so often we've been told we can't talk about money and this is not a space that we can play in. So I understand that subconsciously there is already a bit of insecurity that plays out in women and we have to unlearn this behavior. Some tips that I would recommend for people who are feeling that way is do your research, be realistic about what you want. One of the best examples I can think of is when someone in the past has asked me for a pay rise. But what they did was they actually looked at a business's problem and provided a solution. So they came to this conversation, they were well researched, well prepared, really understood a challenge that we were experiencing and came to us and said, hey, I've noticed this. You've spoken to me about this in the past. I'm not asking for this right now, but this is something that I think I can work towards, I can demonstrate and I have demonstrated, demonstrated to you that this is one of my skills and I think I can offer a solution and this is how I think it can look. And then literally laid out basically a job description, role and responsibilities, how it served the businesses challenge. And I walked out of that meeting and I was like, that is a best in class example of how you can advocate for yourself but also subsequently ask for more money because you've been able to address a business's challenge and you've been able to prove that you can be part of that solution.

B (20:16)

Totally agree. And I think to build on that. Ray, like there are times where it is easier to ask for a pay rise than others. So if you have a mid year or an end of year review, that's a perfect time to be bringing that up. I think if you're bringing it up in a random whip, sure that's fine. But know that most businesses or bigger businesses are structured around not doing a salary review until a mid year or end of year. So when you're starting a new job, always asking, hey, just wondering like how does pay review work? How does promotion review work? All of those things. Often they're tied up to key sort of milestones within the business. I also think you have to look at your KPIs. You should be having annual performance reviews on media reviews, quarterly check ins. What are you working towards? Are you delivering at or above the expectations of your manager and your employer? That's a key one. We all want more money. Hello, that's just life. But having the foresight and the EQ to go, am I actually achieving? Am I giving my all? Am I achieving? Above benchmark is important too because what the business needs and what you want need to marry up. It can't just be I deserve a promotion or I deserve more money. Well, does the business actually have a need for you to be promoted or for you to be remunerated more for what you're doing? So I think often it's tied to a promotion. I think that's just the reality of most businesses. But if you do feel you are being underpaid in the role you're in and you're not seeking a promotion, I would urge you to get on set, get on LinkedIn, find similar roles in similar industries with similar JDs and go and present that you can't just go, I was thinking I'm on 60 and I should be on 80. Well, you need to go and find a role. And also if you're working in say beauty and you're taking a role from an insurance company, that insurance company is always going to be paid more than beauty. Like, you've got to know what the industry standard within your segment is as well.

A (22:11)

One more thing I just want to finish on one of my old bosses, Brad Montgomery, who is also a good friend and I've mentioned him before. I will talk about him a lot when it comes to career. He's been such a huge influence on me. He gave me this really great tip of creating a folder of my best work. And when I'd been given accolades both internally and externally from client partners, at that point we're doing less frequent check ins. It was quarterly, but I would come to those quarterly check ins with him and my national sales director and my state sales director with hard press proof. This is proof of the good work that I've done. This is how it marries up to each of those KPIs. So there was a really clear story and proof that I had done the work. I'm not talking one, I'm talking marrying up five to six examples to each of those KPIs. And again, keep in mind, this was a quarterly check in. But that is a really great hack for you to be prepared and make sure you're going into these conversations armed with the proof and the evidence that not only have you done your role, you've exceeded it. And I do think that's a really important distinction.

B (23:07)

I love that. It's almost like a mini portfolio.

A (23:09)

I love it.

B (23:10)

Next we're going to dive into questions from those of you who are a little further along in your careers. But that will be right after a word from today's sponsor. Let's talk about the most refreshing way to kick off summer. A Four Pillars Rare Dried gin and tonic. Rare dry gin is the original Four Pillars creation and still their favorite. What makes it so delicious? They distill it with fresh whole oranges. And because Australia grows oranges year round, they can capture that citrus brightness in every bottle. The orange lifts the botanicals and gives the gin this beautiful warmth and balance. That's why the perfect serve is simple rare dried gin, good tonic and an orange. Garnish out with lemon and lime. Orange is the hero here. And don't forget lots of ice. It's such an easy, great tasting Drink to make at home and you'll see why. Four Pillars has been named International Gin Producer of the Year three times. So this summer, make it a Four Pillars rare dry gin and tonic. Remember to choose to drink wisely and don't forget the orange. Thank you so much to Four Pillars for making this episode as stylish possible.

A (24:20)

So we also received a bunch of questions from people who are more established in their careers but are still looking for advice. So let's dive into them. Mads, you had a really, really interesting one.

B (24:31)

Yeah, I did. So it was, how do you pivot to another industry when you're in your 30s, which we both are, sadly. I'm six months in. I'm kidding. I love being 30.

A (24:42)

I love being in my 30s.

B (24:43)

Ray, what would you say about this if you were to pivot now? What do you think you would have to do?

A (24:47)

My main question back to this person is why? Why do you want to pivot right now? Really understand and interrogate what your motivation is? Is it money? Is it flexibility? Is it you're not creatively fulfilled? And I think you really, really need to interrogate the why. It might feel like you don't have as much of the luxury to make the wrong step at this point in your career because there are a lot of life factors that you have to consider and, you know, you might feel like, I don't have as much time. You still got time. We all, unfortunately are working till we're probably well into our 60s at this point with the cost of living. But. But for me, it's again, in just interrogating that why and really trying to make sure that you're making an informed decision and you're clear about what motivates you. So whatever decision you make at that point in your career, you can back it entirely.

B (25:36)

Yeah. And I think if you've made the decision you want to pivot and you feel informed, I think the key things to keep in mind are you probably not going to be at the same level you are at if you want to change industries entirely. And so two things have to happen there. One is that you probably have to have a redefined expectation of the salary you are going to get paid. Because I would assume that, that if you've worked in the Same industry or two industries within all of your 20s, that changing industries, you do start, you know, probably back at the bottom, somewhere between the bottom and the middle. So I think it's putting ego aside and going, I am coming in fresh eyed, even though I feel, you know, more Senior or more established, being in my 30s that changing industries you are, you know, having to start back up and there will be people younger than you that know more than you or who are your managers or who are teaching you things. And I think, you know, leave your ego at the door. Like check it in much like you check a code at a bar. Check the code in, check the ego and really go in willing to learn, bright eyed. And much like you would have in your first role, I think you have to take the same zest and energy and yeah, manage your own expectations.

A (26:43)

Absolutely. I also just want to wrap up this question with. You need to be really developing your skill set outside of your 9 to 5 as well at this point in your career. If you are moving into an industry you don't have experience, let's say, which I dig. Get a few questions about that. You know, someone messaged me saying how do I go from being a nurse to working in marketing? Except that you might have to take an entry level position to break into that industry that you want to work in, whether that be marketing or beauty, for example. I also think it's really, really important to get training outside of your 9 to 5. So there are a lot of free courses available or there are paid courses available. One I did recommend in our original episode was the Mark Ritson Mini mba. I found that incredibly helpful to broaden my marketing experience when I was in a very pigeonhole sales position. So, you know, find resources. LinkedIn learning. There's some great opportunities for you to develop your skills and learn more in that space. And it's free.

B (27:39)

Yeah. And can I build on that? There's a really great site called Corsia where they have basically every international institution, college, university you can imagine and they offer both long form and short form courses. Absolutely incredible. Most people who've worked for me will probably be rolling their eyes if they're listening to this because I harp on about it all the time, like definitely take initiative of your own learning, you know, especially if you are wanting to change industries, your manager in your current industry is not going to be helping you or training you to completely do a 180.

A (28:09)

It also helps combat that lack of experience on your cv. So initially when someone's filtering through their cvs, they might not see that direct correlation, but having those added opportunities and added learning experiences will add value. Also, don't underestimate how different life experiences like being a nurse can be spun in a positive because that shows that you have worldly life experience that could also be really valuable in the workplace. All right, next question. How do you know when you're ready to leave a job? What are the signs? Oh, guys, I can speak to this firsthand because this was obviously something that I had to do in my late 20s, moving from JC2CO to Shameless. And I can't stress enough how much I wrangled with this decision. And it's not easy. It is hard. And the best piece of advice I can give you, find your trusted advisors. Do not speak to everyone about this because every man and their dog will give you an opinion. Who are the people? You actually value their opinion most? And I'm talking one to two people at best, because I cannot stress enough how many people told me not to make that jump, not just in the workplace that I was in previously, but also in my friendship group. And it was noisy and it was loud and I had to shut those people out and really, really focus on, on asking the people I cared most about what they thought and who really understood what my goals were, what my values were and what that next step was going to be for me. So find your trusted advisors.

B (29:28)

Yeah, and I think to build on that Ray as well, self reflection. Like how many days a week I spoke about, you know, Disney birds not swinging around you, but how many days are you getting up and you're filled with anxiety or dread to go to work. And I think we've all been in a moment where, you know, you're driving to work or you're getting on the train and you're like short of breath and the anxiety is real. Now if that happens one day a week, maybe that's manageable. If that's more than two or three, something's fundamentally wrong. Like you should not hate or feel that anxious to go to work every single day. So for me, it's like a bit of a self check in and it's self reflection and also going like, you know, what is it you're looking for? Like, are you not happy with your quality of life or your quality of pay? Are you not happy with the development? Like, I think it's doing a bit of a check of those, those listing which of those is most important to you? Some of my friends, career development is more important to them than salary. So I think understanding what it is you want from your job and what you're getting from your job and then marrying up those two and then making a decision from there also you can.

A (30:28)

Pop it in ChatGPT and get them to build out a bit of a venn diagram so you can see how that all aligns and what your core values are and where the overlap is. For me, I'm a very visual person, so I find that's always a helpful way for me to really home in on, like, what my values are and what that next step needs to look like to align with those values.

B (30:45)

Totally agree. Love chatgpt when we need it only for let's replace it with yes, we're not replacing Having a little think with ChatGPT did actually have a funny listener who was saying that their boss keeps telling them to use ChatGPT for efficiencies, and she was like, I'm getting really worried that I'm not actually having a little think anymore. All right, our final one. And God, I can just feel Ray's eye roll even from Sydney through the screen. How do you overcome burnout?

A (31:11)

Yes, I did think it would be a bit pointed if I wrote Madison Sullivan Thorpe in my notes for this part. Because for those of you that would have listened to our most recent episode, stylish, I did have a little chat on Mike with Mad about saying no.

B (31:26)

She's had a few chats off Mike, too.

A (31:28)

The power of saying no, but also really trying to avoid burnout. This is something I've had to learn. And I'm not coming from my ivory tower. I'm coming from a place of experience where I've actually had physical impact on my body and seen my body keep score when I haven't given myself space, not just in a work capacity, but in a personal capacity. And I've driven myself to a point of burnout. It's affected my skin, it's affected my gut, and I can't stress enough how much I've had to put processes and boundaries in place to protect my pace, but just keep myself healthy. So I am very passionate about this. But again, I'm coming from a place of experience, not coming from a place of judgment. Just to clarify, ads to you.

B (32:07)

Yes, thank you.

A (32:09)

One thing I really try and focus on is making sure that you remind yourself it's not that deep. And Georgia Swan, shout out to G. Swan, because she's been saying this to me for a really long time. So much so that this has actually bled into the vernacular of shameless media. It's not that deep, Mads. You would have heard me say it time and time again. Sometimes you just need to say that and to remind yourself and check yourself that we're not saving lives. A lot of people who are doing jobs in marketing, in branding, in the spaces that we're playing in. Mads, it can feel like you're doing life changing stuff, but unless you're working for Lifeblood, you're not really. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, you know, we're not saving lives and sometimes we just need to remind ourselves it's not that deep. That's a very surface level answer. Something I actually want to give really tangible. You need to do this. Take your leave and take holidays. It's there to be used. Don't be a hero and be the person who builds up their leave to seven to eight weeks. There's a reason why it's there and you need to take it because you need to take a break. You need to switch off. Traveling is one of the best gifts you can give yourself. And I'm not talking, you know, going to Europe every year if you want a staycation in Melbourne, or if you just want to drive down to the Peninsula for a few days and switch off. That is the best gift you can give yourself, to take a break, reset and make sure that you're protecting your pace. And I can't stress enough how important it is to make sure if the leave's there, you need to take it and don't be a hero.

B (33:34)

Yeah, I think one thing I'm learning as well, Ray and I know we've spoken a lot about this, is that, you know, if you know that your Monday to Friday is crazy or, you know, maybe you are someone who gets online on a Sunday afternoon because you'd prefer to have your inbox on zero on a Monday than go in and have, you know, this Sunday night scaries of, oh, like, Monday's coming and I feel anxious. There's a power in like saying no personally, and I think if your relationships are strong enough for you to be honest, like, I usually walk with the same girlfriend every day, but now she knows that some days I just need an hour and a half of silencio. I need to, like, recalibrate. I need to fill my own cup so that I can fill other people's cups. I've learned about myself. Like, despite being as opinionated and fiery as I am, I am a people pleaser. Like, I really want to be a great friend. I want to show up for them, I want to help them when they need it. But I also can't do that from an empty cup. So I think burnout Monday to Friday. Sometimes that's hard to avoid. You finish late, you're like eating some microwave meal or you're ordering Uber Eats. Don't hate yourself if you need to get a schnitz wrap and some chips. You got to do what you got to do. Like for me as well, it's just being able to say on a weekend like, hey, I just got to this Friday night, as much as I want to be at the wine bar, I know that I'm going to hate myself on Sunday because I'm going to be exhausted and I got to do it all again.

A (34:54)

Absolutely. Also, shout out to Schnitz. I was eating a wrap at the air Airport at 10pm on Monday night on my flight to Sydney. God, they're good.

B (35:01)

I would start a fight about them being the best chips in Australia. Yeah. Shout out to you Schnitz if you want to sponsor Stylish. I hope you're at the upfronts cause I write it dawn for you.

A (35:08)

They weren't, but we also love Schnuggets.

B (35:11)

I digress.

A (35:11)

One thing I do want to acknowledge when we're having this conversation is the corporate privilege. Not everyone's reality is that they can avoid burnout. A lot of my friends are doctors, nurses work on the frontline and they don't have that luxury. So I also think there is a level of self awareness we have to have when we're having this conversation is that we're focusing predominantly on people who work in corporate environments, marketing, finance, those industries. I just wanted to make that really clear because you know, you could be listening to this being like eye rolling. I don't have that luxury and I feel for you, but you are saving lives. So.

B (35:41)

Yeah. And you don't have traditional leave the way that everyone else does. They don't get Christmas breaks off. Like my stepsister is a nurse. I have a lot of friends who are nurses and doctors. Like you don't get the same break as everyone else. Public holidays don't exist. Like so. Yes, corporate privilege. Totally agree, Re. But you know, I think taking little moments for yourself regardless of what you do because whether it's an RDO or whether you're not on call that day or you've got that annual leave, even if it's just taking one or two days of annual leave to be at home, you don't need to go anywhere. Just like clean out the cupboard that's been bothering you. Cause it feels stressful. Like I think it's just having the self awareness and I am an absolute work in progress. Ray is much better at this than me and. And I am constantly getting on and off the burnout train. But I am trying to be accountable and responsible so when I've got the answers, I'll get back on and tell.

A (36:33)

You my, you're doing a great job, Mads. But I think this is just a good example. Mads and I are very close friends, guys, you know that. And also, equally important, why you should surround yourself with people who aren't yes people and who maybe push you to say no as well. And that's what I'm trying to do with Mads, and vice versa. There have been times when I've had to come to you and you've had to, to be a counsel to me and it'd be like, Ray, what are we really talking about? And does this matter? Or I pulled out of an event last week and I messaged you and you gave me the same confidence and said, basically repeated back to me what I say to you. So, yeah, yeah, that's what friendships are.

B (37:06)

For, I think as well, if you are feeling burnt out, if you feel comfortable talking to your manager about it, if you feel that your job is doing that, full credit to the general manager of the private label business within Mecca. When I was like very freshly going through like hell in my personal life and going through ivf, I went to her and I was like, I'm pretty stressed at work. Like I was in a high pressure role. We'd just launched a brand to market, it was in like its 12 week infancy and I was about to go through personally something pretty hectic. Now, that's not my workplace's issue to worry about, but I just wanted to be honest with her that, like, I probably couldn't be putting in the hours or I would be taking a full lunch break, which I never was doing because I needed to be using that lunch break to hightail down to the Ivy IVF clinic around the corner and be like, you know, having egg counts checked or like, you know, be doing a blood test. So I think she was so protective of my time and energy around that period as well. And if you trust your manager and you feel you can have that conversation, I know again, that's a massive privilege, but people are humans at the end of the day and if you're feeling overwhelmed or burdened, it's important to open up to your boss as well.

A (38:14)

Definitely. And culture comes from the top and that's something I love, love, love mission Zara for that. They really do set the tone and encourage us to make sure that we are doing those check ins. And Zara's the first to say to me, don't be a hero. And she really rings true in my ears when we were having this conversation because a lot of this I've also learned from her. So, you know, I'm passing it on to you. But that's very much come from Zara for me.

B (38:36)

We love it.

A (38:37)

And that's all for our fortnightly Friday episode of Stylish, focusing on brand and marketing. Thank you so much for joining us us. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-is shameless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at Stylish Pod. We'd love to hear from you. And we can't forget to thank the Shameless Media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. We'll be back with you in a fortnight. See you then, guys.

B (39:04)

Bye bye, Mads.

A (39:11)

This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be aboriginal land.