Gen-Z's 'It' bag and the case for killing your mascot

Summary

Style-ish Podcast Episode Summary Episode Title: Gen-Z's 'It' Bag and the Case for Killing Your Mascot
Host/Author: Shameless Media
Release Date: February 18, 2025

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1. Gucci’s Creative Turmoil

The episode opens with a deep dive into the recent departure of Salvatore DeSano from Gucci. DeSano, appointed as the creative director two years prior, was tasked with revitalizing the brand amid declining sales. Despite his efforts to present a pared-back vision contrasting previous directions, Gucci's sales continued to plummet, leading to his early exit.

Key Discussion Points:

• Sales Decline: Gucci experienced a significant drop in sales, with Q4 2024 figures revealing a 24% annual decline to €1.92 billion. This decline placed considerable pressure on its parent company, Kering.

  Rhiannon Joyce [04:15]: "Gucci is the biggest part of Kering's portfolio. So if Gucci sneezes, Kering catches a cold."

• Potential Successors: The hosts speculate on potential replacements, mentioning industry heavyweights like Jonathan Anderson and Marc Jacobs. They emphasize the need for a fresh face with authority in the fashion landscape to restore Gucci's relevance, especially among younger consumers.

  Joanna Fleming [07:28]: "Someone new that we just haven't really seen before or someone that's a little bit further down the ranks at another fashion house and just really make themselves known."

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2. Coach’s Resurgence Among Gen Z

Contrasting Gucci's struggles, Coach emerges as a beacon of success, particularly among Gen Z consumers. Named the fastest-rising brand on the Quarterly Index, Coach has adeptly captured the attention and spending power of younger demographics.

Key Discussion Points:

• Affordable Luxury: Coach’s Brooklyn bag at $550 serves as an accessible entry point into luxury for Gen Z, balancing style with affordability within the luxury sector.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [09:00]: "In the luxury conversation, it's definitely a lot more affordable."

• Sustainability Initiatives: Coach's commitment to sustainability through repairs, upcycling, and store credits appeals to environmentally conscious young consumers.

  Rhiannon Joyce [11:19]: "They really see it as a way to express themselves, and I think that's really, really cool."

• Fashion Show Success: Their New York fashion show was lauded for its wearable and exciting designs, resonating well beyond just the Gen Z audience.

  Rhiannon Joyce [12:24]: "It was really good to see."

• Marketing Strategies: Coach’s revival is attributed to leveraging Y2K aesthetics and strategic collaborations, such as with Lil Nas X, that resonate with contemporary social media trends.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [13:11]: "Their marketing has been really reminiscent of that as well."

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3. The Death of Duolingo’s Duo Mascot

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Duolingo’s decision to retire its beloved mascot, Duo the owl. This move sparked widespread discussion and viral marketing maneuvers, positioning it as a bold brand statement.

Key Discussion Points:

• Mascot Retirement: Duolingo announced Duo’s "death" through a viral statement, blending humor with brand storytelling to engage their audience.

  Rhiannon Joyce [18:00]: "Duolingo’s decision to lean into the more troublesome side of Duo's persona has absolutely paid off."

• Marketing Genius: Experts praise the strategy for breaking through the crowded media landscape by creating a polarizing character that fuels conversation.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [22:13]: "You can't play virality, but you can play mentality."

• Future Implications: Speculation surrounds Duo’s potential resurrection and how Duolingo will maintain brand consistency while navigating public sentiment.

  Rhiannon Joyce [24:40]: "I just think that perfect sums up why this is successful."

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4. Lush’s Bold Move Away from Social Media

The podcast explores Lush’s strategic decision to withdraw from major social media platforms, retaining only Twitter and YouTube. This move aligns with their strong ethical values and desire to foster genuine customer relationships.

Key Discussion Points:

• Ethical Branding: Lush’s departure from platforms like Instagram was motivated by a desire to avoid the negative aspects of social media, focusing instead on in-real-life (IRL) experiences and strategic partnerships.

  Joanna Fleming [27:30]: "Participating in pop culture meant we could still reach new audiences even without having Instagram."

• Sustained Popularity: Despite exiting social media, Lush maintains a strong presence through word-of-mouth and partnerships with popular culture phenomena like "Wicked" and "Barbie."

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [30:16]: "Just because they're not on socials doesn't mean people still aren't referring to them."

• Financial Health: Reports from 2022 indicated that Lush was financially stable, with earnings growth even as they pivoted their marketing strategies.

  Rhiannon Joyce [31:12]: "I was really curious about the reporting post-COVID and stepping away from social media."

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5. Jacquemus Ventures into Beauty with L’Oreal Partnership

The episode highlights Jacquemus’s strategic partnership with L’Oreal to launch a beauty line, marking a significant expansion from its established fashion roots.

Key Discussion Points:

• Brand Expansion: Simone Jacquemus’s collaboration with L’Oreal includes a minority investment to support independent development, ensuring creative control remains intact.

  Rhiannon Joyce [36:07]: "It's a more stable business compared to fashion and has been shown to buck the trend during any recession."

• Market Strategy: The partnership aims to leverage Jacquemus’s strong brand identity and creativity to produce a beauty line that complements their fashion offerings.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [37:22]: "I just think that’s going to be so, so goddamn good... keeping control and restraint."

• Industry Trend: Jacquemus joins other luxury brands like Chanel and Hermès, who have successfully integrated beauty products into their portfolios, becoming significant revenue drivers.

  Joanna Fleming [39:46]: "They absolutely kill it in terms of their makeup offerings."

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Notable Quotes

• Rhiannon Joyce [04:15]: "Gucci is the biggest part of Kering's portfolio. So if Gucci sneezes, Kering catches a cold."

• Joanna Fleming [07:28]: "Someone new that we just haven't really seen before or someone that's a little bit further down the ranks at another fashion house and just really make themselves known."

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [09:00]: "In the luxury conversation, it's definitely a lot more affordable."

• Rhiannon Joyce [11:19]: "They really see it as a way to express themselves, and I think that's really, really cool."

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe [22:13]: "You can't play virality, but you can play mentality."

• Rhiannon Joyce [24:40]: "I just think that perfect sums up why this is successful."

• Joanna Fleming [27:30]: "Participating in pop culture meant we could still reach new audiences even without having Instagram."

• Rhiannon Joyce [36:07]: "It's a more stable business compared to fashion and has been shown to buck the trend during any recession."

• Joanna Fleming [39:46]: "They absolutely kill it in terms of their makeup offerings."

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Conclusion

This episode of Style-ish provides a comprehensive exploration of the dynamic interplay between luxury brands and modern marketing strategies. From Gucci's challenges and Coach’s triumphs to Duolingo's bold marketing moves and Lush’s ethical branding decisions, the hosts deliver insightful analysis on what it takes to resonate with today’s consumers, particularly Gen Z. Additionally, Jacquemus’s foray into beauty with L’Oreal exemplifies the evolving landscape of luxury brands expanding beyond traditional boundaries to secure their place in the market.

For those interested in fashion, brand strategy, and beauty trends, this episode offers valuable perspectives and engaging discussions on the current state and future directions of iconic brands.

Transcript

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Foreign. This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Lancome's Genifique Ultimate Serum. It's the advanced serum you know and love. Now with a revolutionary new ingredient to visibly repair aging signs, this is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business, and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe, and my co hosts today are Joanna Fleming, our resident co host, and we have Rhiannon Joyce.

[Joanna Fleming]

Surprise, surprise. Back for a third week in a.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Row, I found my way back in.

[Joanna Fleming]

Annika's living her best life in New York.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Oh, my gosh. Can we have a moment for Annika's socials at the moment?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I really love that she's found her TikTok.

[Joanna Fleming]

Same.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Every outfit is so serving. Looks like the way that I want to wear half of those outfits, but know that I just could never pull it off. But she is just. I'm like, oh, my God, I need that top. I don't know where the scarf's from. Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I was like, I need to dress exactly like honeycomb.

[Joanna Fleming]

It made me excited for winter fashion.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Me, too. Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, I was already excited for winter fashion because you know how much I loathe summer fashion, but I think it definitely intensified my excitement.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, me too. I'm about to go to France for work next month, and I'm really excited to go through my winter wardrobe, but I have a feeling that I'm going to look at what I had from last year. Like, I hate everything.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Maybe we need to call Annika and be like, hey, just a couple of.

[Joanna Fleming]

I think I might.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, yeah. In the, like, color palette. She did. Yeah. Great.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. Sorry for the tangent, but I just had to honor. Yeah. Annika.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, you're in her chair. It makes sense. You honor her.

[Joanna Fleming]

Exactly. Well, Mads, I actually turned over in bed the other day, and Adrian said to me, I had a dream last night that Maddie and I were designing a house for you, and she insisted on having a whole room dedicated to shoes. And when I questioned it, she said, what would you know? And I said, that is so accur.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

That is like, he doesn't even know you. Well, scarily accurate. I know. No, I feel like we should give listeners context. I have only met Adrian in person once now, but Annika and I met him at the same time and squealed with delight. Because I feel like we've been so invested in just Adrian being the goat of, like, boyfriends, fiance's now, because we're just like, he cooks for you on night shift.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, he's great.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

He nailed the engagement. So we feel like we knew him.

[Joanna Fleming]

Well, apparently he knows you too.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I mean, it checks too. I would be like, don't ask questions. Build the goddamn closet.

[Joanna Fleming]

I know. Anyway, today we are chatting about how Coach has captured the attention and the spending money of Gen Z. Whether a beauty brand can succeed without social media duolingo killing off. It's much loved and also kind of hated at the same time. Mascot and Jack Moose making a move into the beauty industry.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

That's a lot to get through. It's a lot to get through. Today episode.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I know I'm going to be like Timekeeper Witch. Being like enough.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

You're going to be doing symbol to be like, rounded up. Rounded up.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

We do that at dinner too, to each other. We're like just all of us, like, rounded up.

[Joanna Fleming]

That's time to go home.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. Talking stick.

[Joanna Fleming]

But first, Ray, you've got a word of the week for us which we haven't done in a while.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, we haven't done this for a while. But I did want to bring this up because it's recent news and I do want to touch on it before we get into the official segment. So my word of the week is Sabato Desano. Does that mean anything to you guys?

[Joanna Fleming]

Good.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

You can Guang. Good.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

So for those of you who don't know, Vogue business reported Salvatore Desano is exiting Gucci two years after he was appointed as creative director. The brand actually announced this in early February. Sabato Desano was tasked with resetting Gucci, whose sales growth had been falling short of its peers in recent years. He was quoted when he first came on as creative director. I want people to fall in love with Gucci again, he told Vogue Runway and Vogue Businesses Nicole Phelps ahead of his debut show. So that show actually presented a very pared back vision for the brand, in stark contrast to its direction under Michelle. However, despite hopes of a turnaround, Gucci's performance has been very, very hard hit by the luxury slowdown and its performance has steadily worsened over the past few years. Why I wanted to talk about this today is you guys know there are a suite of creative directors who are.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Looking for new homes.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

For new homes. Great way to put it, Mads. Do you have any thoughts around who might replace him? And second to that, why do you think he's had such a short stint at Gucci? So let's start with you, Mads, because I feel like you might have an idea or maybe have been doing some social sleuthing on who's rumored to be replacing him.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I actually haven't seen who's rumored neither. I'm just gonna come out with who I would like to see there.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Love that.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I want to see Jonathan Anderson there.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yes.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So I know there's a lot of talk about him going to Dior and it's quite funny because Dior and Gucci to me are kind of in the same conversation of like two conglomerate luxury houses that sit in their respective kind of homes. So you've got Dior at lvmh, you've got Gucci at Kering, but Gucci is the crown jewel and so I kind of would love to see him go there. It's unlikely. I don't think that's going to happen, but I would just love to see that effect. Why do I think Desano has left so early? I think it is the sales. Gucci is the biggest part of Kering's portfolio. So if Gucci sneezes, Kieran catches a cold is kind of the best way to explain what happens when you know your biggest, most profitable brand is hurting.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, let's put that into numbers. So Gucci sales slumped by 25% to 1.64 billion euros in the third quarter of 2024. I mean, we're still talking serious, serious dollars here, dragging heavily on parent companies hearing, as Mads said. So this followed a 19% drop in the second quarter and an 18% decrease in the first. So the Q4, 2024 results have actually just come out and it's not looking great for Gucci. This poor trajectory is continuing. So sales at Gucci actually plunged 24% annually over the three month period to 1.92 billion euros. So yes, it's not looking good for Gucci and they definitely need a bit of a shake up. And as you said, Mads, I think they really need to bring someone in who can inject a bit of life into the brand. But the relevancy piece is just not there and it's just not landing with young people.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I agree with that. I agree. I mean, Gucci had its moment quite a few years ago and I think it's pretty hard to sustain that kind of reputation. We've got brands like Loewe now who are just completely saturating the market. I guess even with their marketing, they're doing just so well. You can't argue with that. But also apparently the Gucci belt isn't back yet according to those stats. So that you guys tried to convince me.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

But it's funny because in the same Breath. I think they're really responsible for the resurgence we saw of Burgundy. And so it's like they can be true actually responsible for so much. And I think about Miley Cyrus and how they used her and they were using Daisy, Edgar Jones and Paul Mescal. They were so in the convo, it just like hasn't translated to customers converting. So it's funny to be talked about that much. And it's still not land.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I mean, while we're also talking about who would love there? I mean, Tom Ford at Gucci is my favorite of Gucci. So can we just bring Tom back?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. I mean, the brand was so heavily sexualized in that era, but there are some iconic campaigns that came from his reign as creative director.

[Joanna Fleming]

I'd like to see a fresh face.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Someone new that we just haven't really seen before or someone that's a little bit further down the ranks at another fashion house and just really make themselves known.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. So some of the names I've seen on social media that have been thrown around and you know, guys, this is all speculation, but Marc Jacobs, Maria Grazia Ch and Simone Jacquesmus, who we will be talking about a bit later.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

All been thrown into the mix, so who knows? I feel like Gucci has a history of making very left field choices, so it could go either way. Matt, you could end up with your pipe dream. You never know.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I'm just a girl with a dream standing in front of a brand. Right. Who do you want to see? I know you've mentioned the names, so who would you like out of those names?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Honestly? Let me sit with this. I honestly would like to see someone who is counter to what you said, Joe has a bit more experience. I think someone like Marc Jacobs who has really established their own household name, I think could go into Gucci and build something. And also, yeah, maybe that's a traditionalist in me, but I feel like they need someone who has a bit of authority in the fashion landscape.

[Joanna Fleming]

It'd be pretty iconic.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, iconic. Yeah. So I'd like to see that.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. Okay, so we'll stay tuned.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Stay tuned.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Bring you back as a guest again to tell us when it's announced.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Oh, okay. A little like breaking news.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Okay. From one luxury brand to another luxury brand, but perhaps a little bit more of an attainable one. We are talking about how Coach has captivated Gen Z. And Coach, unlike houses such as Gucci, hasn't been impacted by the global luxury brand sales slowdown and was recently named the fastest rising brand on list. Quarterly index, which ranks brands based on their sales and popularity across social channels. So Coach has really successfully captured the hearts and I guess, wallets of Gen Z. And their recent New York fashion show was a total testament to that. The Guardian wrote that the models on the Coach catwalk could have walked straight off the New York, straight outside the venue. Post show Coaches designer Stuart Vevers said that to make fashion that speaks to the moment, you have to talk to the younger generation. Actually it's not about talking to them, it's about listening to them. What I hear most from them is about self expression, people being who they want to be and using fashion to give them that confidence. So Coach has really been able to connect with younger consumers and I think largely due to the affordable price point, given they are in the luxury sector. For example, their incredibly popular Brooklyn bag is $550, which we're. By no means are we saying that's cheap, but I think in the luxury conversation it definitely is a lot more affordable. And I also think through sustainability initiatives like offering repairs, upcycling, and they also offer store credit for people wanting to restore or trade in a Coach bag that they already own. What do you think has made Coach so successful with Gen Z and as a brand?

[Joanna Fleming]

I think to your point, the pricing, yes, that's a lot of money for most people. But for a Gen Z fashion obsessed consumer that wants to buy into a luxury bag, that is a great entry point for them to enter the market and also buy a bag that is really cool. Yeah, you're not settling for something that is the shit version of what the major brands. You're not just buying the cheapest thing that you can buy. You can actually invest in a really beautiful, stylish bag that fits with exactly what you want. You don't have to compromise is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, but Coaches chief executive Todd Kahn actually told Vogue this week that something may be very American in us is that I don't feel good about having someone save up three months of salary to buy a handbag.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I love that.

[Joanna Fleming]

And so they obviously feel that very inherently at the brand that they don't want to be the most expensive brand there is. They want to remain accessible to some degree to their audience that they very much know they are speaking to in all of their marketing.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. And Ray, what do you think about the audience they're speaking to?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Well, first of all, I just want to acknowledge that Coach has always been very good at making luxury feel accessible. To your point, Joe, I think What I love about Coach right now is a lot of their styling looks worn. So the way that they accessorize their clothing on the Runway and how that translates to young people is it feels attainable. And I also think it inspires individualism. So what they're able to do is see the way that it started on the Runway and see the quirkiness and I guess the way that they use accessories, sunglasses, handbags, keychains, in a way that I think really resonates with Gen Z. I think they really see it as a way to express themselves, and I think that's really, really cool. And I went through the full looks from the New York fashion Runway. It was so cool. They just nailed look after look after look. And even for myself, I'm not Gen Z, but I felt a lot of what they had on the Runway was really wearable and exciting. It was really good to see.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And maybe that's a stark contrast to something like Gucci that we've seen at the moment. Like, maybe it is that wearability that is resonating. But I think it's so interesting because I kind of compare them to a brand like Michael Kors that has just fallen and dropped out so much of the conversation. I really have, like, full kudos to give to Coach. Not that they need my kudos, but I just think the fact they've been able to bounce back up into this conversation, I think is a real testament. I agree to their marketing team and to their designers, because I think they've kind of gone back through the archives and brought back some of that, like, Y2K look and feel. But also their marketing has been really reminiscent of that as well. They had a collab with Lil Nas. They're very much lent into that era, and I think we're kind of seeing those conversations on socials lean that way as well.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, I think you would really love a lot of what was shown on the Runway. I've marked a look for you, Jo. Look. 28 lengthy trench coat in chocolate brown. Reaffirming brown as a preferred neutral. It isn't going anywhere. It just was the most, like, luxurious, buttery looking leather coat. I was like, I want that.

[Joanna Fleming]

I do that. A chocolate brown trench, I think I replicate.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I think Arnica would approve as well.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, absolutely. They're doing some kind of initiative. Do you guys know about that?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

No, I don't.

[Joanna Fleming]

Initiative where they encourage you to. I think you sell back your bag or you trade it in or something.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I do know. Sorry. What they actually do is they Encourage you if you have any faults or any issues with your bag, you can send it back in for repairs.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Right.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Which is excellent. And I think I can't remember when I spoke about this. It might have been on my personal TikTok or on one of the stylish episodes that I featured on. But one of my favorite things to do is with my leather shoes, get them resold. Yeah. At my local cobbler instead of buying new pairs. And I love, love, love when brands reaffirm that messaging of you don't need to buy a new bag, you don't need to buy a new pair of shoes. You can just repair the one that you have now. Coming back to your point around sustainability as well, Joe, I do think that is another reason why it really resonates with Gen Z. Sust is very important to young people. As we know, thrifting is also a very common trend amongst young people.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I see a lot of vintage Coach on depop on ebay. You know, people are really gravitating towards reselling sites to find those individual pieces. So it doesn't surprise me that that interest in the brand and the history of the brand is then also translating to how young people show up for the brand and their current collections and their investment in their current collections.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, yeah. And their sales rose 5% in the last quarter, which is. It doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a lot in comparison when you're contrasting it with something like what Gucci is doing. But I would be willing to argue that their second hand market is booming like tenfold of that. I was even watching. It was like my phone was listening to me and knew that we were going to talk about this. But Elizabeth say the TikTok who is largely known for makeup, she's in Japan at the moment or when she filmed the video. She was. And she did like a flea market haul and was showing all these coach bags she'd got for like 30 Australian doll.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. Her name Cl.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. I was like, I feel like this would have been. I feel like the secondhand market's probably booming more than their brand new market.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. Okay. A lot about Coach. What other brands do we think are doing affordable luxury really well?

[Joanna Fleming]

It's a great question.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I know you've got one, right? Oh, I do have one.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

But I ask the questions. Someone go and read my answer.

[Joanna Fleming]

Instead of making us think about it, tell us yours.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Okay. So a brand that came top of mind to me was Tory Burch.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I feel like they are so on my radar at the moment. I did send a message in the stylish Slack channel last week. I was sharing behind the scenes videos of the Tory Burch show at New York Fashion Week. I just think their tone of voice and the lo fi approach, like one of their mics was so busted. Like so busted. I felt like it just added to the whole behind the scenes chaotic experience. And they're doing interviews with models. It was just so Tony and so funny. Also, the entire front row, most of them were tiktokers and I know a lot of people have opinions on that and find that annoying, but I did see a lot of coverage of their show, more so than most of the shows.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

So I do think that says a lot in itself. And yeah, I think Tory Burch as a whole doing really well. They're up 39% in popularity monthly as well, which is data.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

But Make It Fashion.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Our girly puppet daughter But Make It Fashion reported they're actually up 39% in popularity monthly. Mads, your favorite account.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

It is my favorite account. If I could have one account to follow for the rest of my life, it would be that.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Okay, so moving on. This might feel a little left of field for those of you who are listening today's episode but I do think it's really important for us to cover this headline because it's huge emphasis and a huge marketing brand moment. So what we're talking about today is why did Duolingo kill off? It's our mascot. So for a bit of background, bear with me because it's a bit lengthy and we are talking about an hour but this ends up being a really interesting conversation and guys I make weirdly invested in this conversation. So last week language learning platform Duolingo killed off its beloved and hated by some out mascot known for its marketing, which is really just snarkiness and viral moments. It is quite a, you know, sassy owl. Authorities are currently investigating his cause of death and we are cooperating fully. The company's statement said, to be honest, he probably died waiting for you to do your lessons. But what do we know? We know he had many enemies, but we kindly ask that you refrain from sharing why you hate him in the comments. It's so Tony. I love it. Duolingo statement encouraged people to share their credit card information so it could sign them up for its premium subscription service in his memory. The post went viral and the company has since created other storylines around Duo's death. One even claimed he was killed by a cyber truck. We know this May sound a little random for us to cover, but it's actually such a mammoth, fun and interesting marketing moment. We really just wanted to unpack it. And I really enjoyed doing research for this segment. Mads, I feel like you felt the same. I sold out so many notes. Name so Duo has been the face of the company since 2011, and he became known for his slightly threatening, snarky personality. And after becoming a meme in 2017, he exploded in popularity. He actually became a social media star, interacting with the likes of Dua Lipa. I'm obsessed with that someone. Duo called his other half. Matt Williams, a visiting clinical professor at the Maison School of Business, told NPR that Duo lingo's decision to lean into the more troublesome side of Duo's Persona has absolutely paid off. They've done an amazing job of doing what brands are all trying to do, which is creating a personality that breaks through this hugely cluttered media landscape that we live in that people either love or hate. And that polarization is part of the point, because that's what gets people talking about this now. It is unclear why Duolingo has killed Duo Off. That was a mouthful. But experts like William theorize it might be to capture people's interest in the lead up to a product launch or big announcement or just a novel way to keep their brand in the zeitgeist. William says killing the hour off is a big move to get attention. Smart money says he's going to get resurrected in some way. And the question is, can they do that in a way that feels consistent with the story they've built around the owl, or do they end up doing it in a way that gets soap opera resurrection eye rolls? Okay, my first question. Duro is a very polarizing character. Do you guys love or hate him?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I fucking love that owl. Fucking love. Mom. I'm so sorry. I know. I fucking love that owl. This is genius. Yeah. Name like any character aside from, like, the Eminem or, like, Ronald McDonald or the colonel Sanders, who, by the way, I'm not saying, like, lifelike Colonel Sanders rolling up around KFC like, this is. Someone in that office designed a 2D bird and someone went, wouldn't it be great if we just bought a foam version of this outfit? And that is probably the 10 grand they've ever spent on anything in their whole business's strategy.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Do you know whose idea it was?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

No, but I want to know.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I do. I went deep, deep into this. So I was really, really curious about the person who was behind the concept of Duolingo and like, blowing up on TikTok. So it was actually the company's senior global social media manager, Zaria Parvis. So I read this really cool interview on contagious.com I'll link it in the show notes. She was quite junior and pitched the idea that she would start making videos of duo on TikTok. And being a very, I guess, progressive startup environment, they gave her pretty much free rein to create whatever content that she wanted. And initially, in a piece that I read, their initial success was actually being one of the original accounts to comment on other people's TikToks.

[Joanna Fleming]

This is the only reason I know about this bird, because I don't use duolingo. The only reason I know about this bird is because I've seen the hilarious comments under random TikTok.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So that's how it is.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

That's how it started.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

They were obviously simultaneously posting videos, but in terms of when they started to get attraction and people were really starting to notice Duo, it was the comments section and then they had this really big viral moment. I think it was the moment where they had this meme creation. But good on duolingo and the leadership team for encouraging at the time. I believe she was 23 at the time when she pitched this TikTok or took over the TikTok accounts. I think that is such a great example of not putting red tape in front of your junior employees and empowering them to be able to take something on like a TikTok account and giving them free reign so that they can lean into that tone of voice because it has paid off in spades.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. And I want to be really clear here we are talking about a language learning app. Well, you know, Grammarly is not blowing up on TikTok like Microsoft, but do you know what I mean?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yes, I know exactly.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

These are not the brands that are glowing up even in the last few days when they've killed, killed. And I use that in my inverted comment, killed the bird. It's Duo's, like, been picked up by New South Wales Police have done, like, videos about, like, we're off to find who's killed Duo. They've got Dua Lipa responding, like, with a statement, till death do we Duo. And then we've got people doing fake TikToks at gravesides for the bird.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

This is a language learning app. Like, I think we need to go back to this bird is associated with, like, a pretty mundane thing.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

That is for people to learn a new language.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. Do you Love him.

[Joanna Fleming]

Oh, I just don't really know him well enough to say that. Yeah, I do. So I love the fact that the brand at one point has trusted someone that really knew their platform.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

And they just let them rol with it. And more brands need to do that because this is really paid off in their favor. And I think that this will end up coming out, that it's some kind of stunt of sorts. I think it was meant to be the start of some virality and that's what they've achieved with, you know, Dua Lipa replying and all of the follow on TikToks that have come from it. And then I think there's going to be a bigger moment that comes from this.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

And I think you're right. I think you mentioned they were going to like maybe launch something else. I think that will be the case.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. I think it's a beautiful example of marketing in the moment as well. I wouldn't be surprised as well if they haven't fully strategized where they go next and they're actually looking at the public sentiment and how people are responding and allowing space to pivot. You know, this is a brand that has really lent into being risky but also being quite scrappy with how they do content. In this piece that I read and I'll have to link it in the show notes because I don't have it on me. Exactly. But there's a beautiful quote from Zaria who is the senior global social media manager. She said, our first big success was commenting on other accounts. Those comments ended up becoming almost like the new push notification for Duolingo. Everyone started seeing duo pop up everywhere. You can't play virality, but you can play mentality. Our openness to being scrappy and experimenting is what has set us apart. I just think that perfectly sums up why this is successful. That scrappiness, that being able to just lean into the moment and pivot and just move with. With the wind, the marketing wind.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I would love them to do something where it was like really user generated, content driven and pop the bird up in like all the major cities and you would go over and the bird would be teaching you a new language so that it was like this viral interactive in real life representation. Because then people will be like two hours back. It's not I found the bird. So it's kind of like pushing their product as well as celebrating the fact that this like metaphorical bird is dead.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I know.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well now back to life.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. I think it'll Be really interesting to see what they do.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Jo. Sometimes a beauty product comes along that's so special, it becomes a cult purchase that we couldn't live without. And we're still using it 15 years later.

[Joanna Fleming]

Absolutely. Lancome's Genifique Serum is one of those products. It's an if you know, you know, type situation.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yes. So Lancome released the iconic Genifique Advanced serum over a decade ago, and the world went crazy. And to be honest, they still are. But recently, Lancome released the Genifique Ultimate Serum, which is everything we know and love about the original serum, but with the addition of breakthrough ingredients.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, these stats are seriously impressive on this serum. After one bottle, there's a 20% reduction in visible pores, 33% less visible redness, and 28% reduction in fine lines. And the one ingredient that has my attention are the beta glucans. They're inspired by a dermatological active that's known to promote skin repair, which we love.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

We love. I am so, so excited to try this one. Longcom's new Genifique Ultimate Serum is available [e-mail] thank you so much to Lancome for making this episode of Stylish possible.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay, so enough about Duolingo, because that was kind of a little bit off brand for us to discuss, but can a beauty brand succeed without social media kind of opposing the storyline of Duo? We saw a recent feature on Business of Fashion about UK beauty brand Lush's decision to not have any social media. And it got us wondering whether beauty brands can sell product or find success without the presence of socials. In 2021, Lush quit every single one of its social media platforms apart from Twitter and YouTube. And at the time, the brand said in a statement, we couldn't ask our customers to meet us down a dark and dangerous alleyway. Some social media platforms are beginning to feel like places no one should be encouraged to go. Something has to change. Lush left behind almost 4 million followers and invested the time and money it was spending on digital into IRL experiences and partnerships instead. In recent years, they've had partnerships with movies like Wicked and Barbie, ensuring the brand and its products are still tapped into the zeitgeist and appearing in people's feeds. Rowena Bird, one of Lush's co founders, said, we knew it was a risk, but the mission was too important to us. Participating in pop culture meant we could still reach new audiences even without having Instagram. What do you guys think of this positioning?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Go on. Right. We both just Took two really big sighs. I feel like there's so much to say.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I understand that Lush is a brand that really prides itself on its ethics and has very, very strong values. I don't personally shop at Lush a lot, but I do know that it is a brand that has, like, very strong value. So it doesn't surprise me that they went down this very earnest route. Comparing Instagram to a dark alleyway is a very interesting comparison to me. But again, I'm not really surprised that they've done this based on their values and their ethics. And from what I know and the research that I've done, I don't think it's impacted their social presence as much as what people would think. I did go through their Instagram tagged photos and noticed that people are still tagging the brand. Up until, like, hours ago when I was just on it before the recording. There are a flurry of posts and product placements and people talking about the brand on social. So, you know, just because they're not on socials doesn't mean people still aren't referring to them.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

What do you think, Mads?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, people are talking about you. You're not talking about yourself. That's like the perfect way to summarize it. And I think they're not the only brand that don't have social media. And I know previously we've spoken about Bottega Veneta not having owned channels. Dre's Van Noten famously also doesn't have social channels, and I think they're true luxury fashion brands. I think Lush has been around for quite some time, though, so I think that is important. And I also think, like, it feels a little bit ivory tower for me for them to say we don't want to engage in a dark alleyway, because to be partnering on things like Barbie and Wicked. Will you still want to be part of cultural conversations that you're hoping no doubt will flood into the social landscape? Whether that's from yours or not.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Do you know what I mean? Like, I know you mean I'm like.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

So kind of can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, you're doing a sit down with the business of fashion, so I imagine you've still got a PR agency who, yeah, I would then imagine is potentially sending, and this is all speculative, but potentially still sending PR packs and things like that. I don't know. I think, fine, if you don't want to have socials, but also, like, it feels a bit like throwing rocks to be, like, it's a dark laneway.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. I don't know that line specifically doesn't sit well with me. But I also think semantics, at the end of the day, they wanted to make a big splash.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

They very much wanted to make it known that they were stepping away from social. So yeah, totally.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

The only part of it that I would potentially agree with for them is that they do, in my experience, slate towards a younger audience. And I know that from, you know, the way that younger children and family, friends and things like that want to interact with them. I think the bath bombs are very theatrical for teenagers and you know, younger women. And so I think that maybe that's them kind of going. We know that can be a toxic place for that audience.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So I can see that side.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

That is quite a strategic play when you look at it from that perspective, to be honest. Meds, I didn't think about that. But I think now that you said that it is quite smart and I think does position them favorably, particularly amongst parents because you know, you're leading by example. You're a brand that has strong values. You're creating a really safe, nurturing environment for also young people to go in and consume and experience products. Yeah, yeah, I didn't think about that. I think that's a really good point.

[Joanna Fleming]

But also when you have the store presence that Lush has and the brand recognizability, you can step away from social media. I think it's easy to exist as an established, very established brand in the beauty space. You cannot have social media and still succeed. If you are a brand new brand trying to set yourself up, trying to become recognizable, trying to enter this zeitgeist. It's going to be a struggle to do so without having some kind of social media presence and being across things. But it's a lot easier for a brand that are as established as Lushes and has been around for decades.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yes. And that in store experience, I think. I don't know about you guys but I remember when I was a teenager I used to love going into their stores, trialing all the products. They're scratch you low key would like eat it. Did anyone else do that?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

A little bit in the mouth. A little bit.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

They're all like very good ingredients.

[Joanna Fleming]

We're not encouraging you eating.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Don't Lush Lush products. Okay. But I did have a little lick.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Of the lips, you know.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Anyway, moving on. I think what's interesting is I did really struggle to find recent reports on whether or not this has impacted their numbers on their website. Lush reported an 836 million in total company earnings. So this included joint ventures, associates, licensees and franchises. So this represented an increase of 7.5% on 2021 and a 10.5% increase when converted at consistent exchange rates. So there's growth. This is old data though. We're looking at 2022 data.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

But coming out of COVID coming out.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Of COVID perhaps there was like a surplus. Their EBITDA in the year was also 31.8 million pound. So for those of you who don't know, EBITDA is short for earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and am. I don't expect you guys to know that essentially it is the company's profitability and financial performance. Like that is the number you want to look at. I would say that's pretty decent results. Now I'd be really, really curious to see recent reports because guys, this report aligns with the year that they decided to step off social media.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

So I'd be really curious to know what that data looks like now and is there a reason why we don't have access to that data right now?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, I'm also willing to bet if it wasn't working they'd just jump back on social and be like, you know, we're going to go about this in a safe way or like we're going to monitor this. I don't know. I just don't think if you were in decline you'd be like, oh, we're going to avoid that decision.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, yeah. I just thought it was interesting that both the report I looked at and maybe there's something else out there. But this was on their website. So the most up to date source. Yeah. Aligned with the same year and I.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Mean from one very established brand to main. Another established brand but not yet in the beauty space. Jacques Moose which we were laughing off air and off mic because I have been saying Jacquemus for the longest time and I think this is a little bit like when you get people to say Louisville and I can say Louisville but can't say this. So here we are.

[Joanna Fleming]

How have you said it?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Jacques Mousse. But I did see a TikTok where they were pronouncing Jacquemus.

[Joanna Fleming]

I used to say Jacquemus.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, Jacquemus is the latest fashion house to move into beauty and just because I can't say it's it doesn't mean I am not so excited by this. They have inked a deal with L'Oreal to launch a beauty Line and look, we want to be really transparent. This episode is sponsored by Longcom, which is owned by parent company L'Oreal. And our editorial choices are entirely our own and not at all influenced by our partnerships, but we always conscious of flagging.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

As the head of business development, I.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Might please flag so the labels. Designer and founder Simon Jacques mousse said that 15 years ago I began dreaming of and creating Jacques Mousse with perfume and beauty always being part of my vision for the brand. Today I am proud to continue shaping this dream with the leading beauty group L'Oreal. I'm excited to see what the future holds for us. You know what, Simone? I am excited too because this long term exclusive beauty partnership includes a minority investment to support the label independent development, which I think is really important because there's been a lot of speculation in recent years of if the brand did need funding and how they would go because I think so much of this brand is his vision. So I think this is super exciting because within the next sort of two or so years we're going to see this range materialize. It will include a fragrance or fragrances. And I think what we're seeing in the beauty space is more and more fashion houses or fashion brands looking to beauty as a really lucrative way to help build their brand. And I think Chanel is a perfect example of this. It's estimated that 40% of their total sales come from beauty, which is pretty astronomical when you think about the fact they started as a fashion house. Retail expert and trend forecaster Wiz Selvie told Elle last year that beauty is becoming increasingly important for luxury brands as an equity and sales driver as competition in the category heats up.

[Joanna Fleming]

Up.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

It's a more stable business compared to fashion and has been shown to buck the trend during any recession. What do you think of this beauty partnership?

[Joanna Fleming]

Well, I saw that business of Fashion reported last year that in search of greater ownership both in image and revenues, that more fashion houses were wrestling back control of their beauty licenses. Because a lot of them license out your fragrance and cosmetic categories.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

And then Bareface Media just recently reported that fashion houses are realizing that beauty isn't just a sideline. It, it's lucrative. It's growing business. And ALVMH's October 2024 report showed that perfumes and cosmetics grew by 5% but their fashion categories were in decline.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

So that really says a lot about this category. And I think going with L'Oreal was a fantastic move by them.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I am so Excited to see where this partnership goes. I think Jack Moore says a brand has so much creativity and is so present in the Zeitgeist. It is one of my personal favorite accounts to follow. Simone, the creative director and founder of Shark Moss, just seems also like a delightful human being. I know I don't know him, but.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I wish he did. I'd love to.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Me too. He just seems to have like such a great presence. His ability to just leverage really good talent. If you see the people that attend his. His shows, the diversity is incredible. Where they've come from is incredible. You know, he has social media personalities. He has some of the biggest A listers in the world. He has just so much industry, I guess, cred. I just love it. I'm so excited to see where it goes.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I am so excited for this. And I think the only caution that I have in this, and it even kills me to say caution because I think this is going to be so, so goddamn good, is just keeping that control and restraint on it because I think he's done a brilliant job at building this brand and making sure there are really tight synergies with the fashion line and house and look and feel and also the availability of these products. I wouldn't want to see this in every single retailer that you can go and buy, say a Prada fragrance. And that's not too shit on Parda fragrance. It's just you can go to Maya David Jones, you can go online. I think there's some fragrance brands like adult chain Gabbana that maybe didn't get it right, that weren't the true extension of the fashion house that they were from. Like, I don't think a 39.99 blue ice or whatever it was called down at Chemist Warehouse is reflective of Dolce and Gabbana.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Shows in Milan and I think Tom.

[Joanna Fleming]

Ford is a great example of that. Someone that has been a luxury fashion house has absolutely nailed luxury fragrance.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

And you can just see that in the branding, the price point, the positioning of the brand in stores. They've just done such a good job with that.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. The one thing that I would say about Shark Moussa that I think they really need to lean into is that creativity as a brand. I think Simone has done an incredible job at building really cult products and I would love to see design wise him lean into that creativity and in the design of the bottles, I want it to look, look like a Jacquemore fragrance. Yeah. Because I think that aesthetic is going to be so important to also Translate to sales for this brand?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Can you think of any other brands who have done that really well, like, really lent into the creative aspect of their brand?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, I think Hermes, for me, is the best example, the most recent, probably masterclass example of a brand that has lived and breathed its heritage into beauty. And I think think hats off to them because to go from a brand selling an $80,000 handbag to a brand selling like a $70 lipstick is not an easy challenge. But I think heritage, craftsmanship, and exclusivity are at the core of their fashion brand. And I think it's at the core of their beauty line as well. And I think they're not trend cycle driven. They're just doing beautiful products that are mainstayers. And I think Chanel, I mean, it's hard to have this conversation and not put Chanel in that mix too.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Dior as well. I think Dior and Chanel very hand. Hand that you wouldn't automatically think, oh, Dior's just a fashion brand that have done beauty. They are definitely a standalone beauty brand in fragrance and also specifically in makeup. I would say they absolutely kill it in terms of their makeup offerings. So that's another one I'd point out.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I'm going to sneak in a recommendation here because I think, one, it's relevant and two, it was one of the best episodes I've listened to. But the Business of fashion in 2022 actually released an episode. It was hosted by Lauren Sherman.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

And Lauren actually profiled a business of fashion journalist Robert Williams, who profiled Simone Jacquesmus. I loved this episode. I know Zara McDonald has also recommended. It is old, but I think now that we're having this conversation, I actually went back and listened to it. And with the gift of hindsight, it was so interesting.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Hearing them unpack where Jacquemus wanted the business to be now versus where it was back then. So for a bit of context, in 2022, Jacquemus was valued at 200 million Euro. That a lot of money for a brand at that point who had been around for 10 years, but also had no investment from large conglomerates, whether that be LVMH or private equity generally. It was very much driven by the bricks and mortar space. What was really interesting is at the time of that recording of the podcast in 2022, he's then CEO Bastion Dougson, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, had a very heavy fragrance background. So, yeah, he was very instrumental in the conversations around Jacques Moss. Potentially going into fragrance. His background was at Poosh, which is a fragrance group known for pushing the Paco Rabanne fragrance campaign. I don't know if you guys remember when Paco Rabanne was like, everywhere from a fragrance pov. So he was instrumental in that. So there were already reports back then of Jacques Moss moving into Fragrance. That was 2020. To circle back to where we are now. I definitely think it's just a good episode to listen to. Also, they talk about where they Jacquemus to be. His ambition was for Jacquemus to be a 550 million euro business at the end of 2025. We are now in 2025. His intention was to do that without external investment, but given that he still has so much creative control and this feels more like a partnership as opposed to L'Oreal coming in and driving that control.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. And I think that will be the difference of this succeeding or not, whether Jacques Mouss is the brand name on a bottle or whether it is like. And I think the two brands I would be looking at if I was sitting in the room ideating this would be Colt Gaia, who I think architecturally have brought their brand and the personification of their designs to life in their fragrance bottles, and Louisville, who are upholding exactly who they stand for as a brand in the fragrance space. And I think if they can nail this, I think this will be one of the most impressive launches that we see from a fashion.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I'm really excited to say it. I could also see them only going into their bricks and mortars to start.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

I'm so excited to see the design of the bot, but I hope there's.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Great storytelling too, because I think Simone ultimately is an incredible storyteller. And so for me, I want to hear that Ascent was inspired by, you know, his home or that it's, you know, lavenders and things like that that have always inspired his designs. But, yeah, a definite. Stay tuned for us.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

We could honestly keep talking about this forever, but we are running out of time.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

It could be a trace, honestly.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

It could be a trace.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

But that is all for this week's episode of Stylish. Ray is going to play timekeeper now. Thank you so much for joining us. And of course, thank you much, Ray, for joining us third week in a row. And you, Joanna Fleming, always a pleasure. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at style_ish au we also cannot forget to thank our audio engineer, Liam Clayton, and the Shameless Media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. We'll be right back with you and Annika next Wednesday. See you then.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Bye. See you, guys. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land.

[Joanna Fleming]

Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land. Hi, it's Ruby here, host of Shameless Media's podcast, Inherited. Every week I am joined by a guest on Inherited who tells me about the rules, relic, recipe and ritual that has shaped who they are. And I'm popping up today to share some special moments that have resonated with me here. Britt Hockley speaks about the relationship she shares with her business partner and best friend, Laura Byrne.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

The best thing that came out of.

[Joanna Fleming]

The Bachelor was Laura.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Laura Burn.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, by far the best relationship that I got from that series. We are very different people in business. That's why it works. And I think you can't have two people the same in business because you. You'll clash heads. Next you will hear a side of Annabel Lee you may not have heard before.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I used to be so secretive as a kid when my parents divorced. When they split up, I didn't tell anyone in my life. I think it's because growing up, I was kind of told by my parents. And it is also like a Chinese culture thing where you don't tell people the things that they might judge you for.

[Joanna Fleming]

And here's Caroline Kell, founder of Black Waddle Coaching. This was a really special conversation. Caroline speaks to the work she does with indigenous communities, in particular, women who can reclaim their power.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

For a long part of this history in Australia, Black women, particularly their bodies and minds, have been exploited, enslaved, domesticated. You know, to have the bravery to name, like, how we're feeling and to honour those feelings and to have even that language is a really courageous thing for us to reclaim our sovereignty of ourselves.

[Joanna Fleming]

Inherited episodes drop every Tuesday. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts and you can watch it too on YouTube. Just search inherited.