How can I have the best sleep of my life?

Summary

Style-ish Podcast: "How can I have the best sleep of my life?"

Episode Date: January 27, 2026
Host: Madison Sullivan Thorpe (MST)
Co-hosts: Joanna Fleming (Jo) & Annika Joshi Smith (Annika)
Podcast Theme: All things fashion, lifestyle, brand, and beauty

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Overview

In this lifestyle-focused "IUL" (Is Your Life-ing) episode of Style-ish, the hosts dive deep into the multifaceted world of sleep—how much the community is really getting, bedtime rituals, the challenges of modern adult life, practical tips (including surprising ones like kiwifruit!), and expert-backed advice from Dr. Moira Junga of the Sleep Health Foundation. The hosts share their own struggles and routines, peppered with lighthearted humor and genuine vulnerability, aiming to help listeners make sense of sleep hygiene in a demanding world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. New Year, Pivots & Winter Fashion Inspo

• Timing: [00:34]–[07:49]
• The hosts reflect on the year's chaotic start and upcoming shifts from the Chinese Year of the Snake to the Year of the Horse, representing "rapid change, fresh opportunities, personal growth, and a faster pace of life." (Jo, [01:30])
• Annika is inspired by turtlenecks and "the Olsen hair tuck" and recommends Grace E. Nicholas' Instagram trick for a chic look ([04:22]).
• Madison raves about her new Dearing shoes—a $550 splurge but a great style investment ([06:04]).
• Jo delivers a life-changing cleaning swap: Vamouche pet hair dissolver, which reduced her laundry woes by about 60% ([07:59]).

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2. Community Sleep Survey Results

• Timing: [11:11]–[17:46]
• Madison breaks down stats from listeners:
  • 48% sleep "pretty well," 26% "sometimes," 11% "really well," 10% "badly," 5% "struggle/have insomnia."
  • 46.5% go to bed between 9–10pm, 29% between 10–11pm, and 15% between 8–9pm.
• Annika shares her specific routine: "My phone goes on like quiet mode or do not disturb at 8:44. And I try to be offline... I try to have no screen time so I can actually fall asleep by 9:30." ([12:09])
• Jo and Madison open up about their later bedtimes—between 11–12pm, often due to work demands, and how it impacts their sleep and energy ([13:21]).

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3. Sleep, Work, Burnout & Mental Health

• Timing: [16:09]–[21:54]
• The hosts tie poor sleep directly to work stress, career progression, and especially global roles with wild time zones (Madison: "[Tower 28]...I could be on calls at 2 or 3am my time, have to go back to sleep, get back up at seven..." [16:34]).
• Burnout and elevated cortisol are discussed as part of the modern "always on" hustle, with Annika reflecting on how her own burnout peaked in the early years of her business ([18:20]).
• Madison is surprised so many community members are getting 6–7 hours, considering the prevalence of anxiety and demanding lifestyles ([19:45]).
• Jo shares her empathy for listeners struggling with sleep, referencing insomnia during COVID: "I was so used to being in an office every day...and then suddenly I was just sitting at home all day and ... I struggled to go to sleep and stay asleep." ([20:45])

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4. When Did You Sleep Best?

• Timing: [21:09]–[22:28]
• Annika: "Probably before starting Sage, if I'm being perfectly honest. ...I'm so fucking tired all the time now..." ([21:13])
• Madison: Best sleep was during COVID due to intense exercise regimens: "It's almost like my body was so exhausted that it just had to sleep." ([21:54])

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5. Expert Advice: Dr. Moira Junga on Sleep

• Timing: [23:33]–[25:02]
• Dr. Moira Junga (Sleep Health Foundation) emphasizes:
  • "Sleep is as important as your diet and physical fitness." Long-term poor sleep increases risk for mental health issues, obesity, cancer, and dementias ([24:05]).
  • Most adults need 7–9 hours per 24 hours; it’s OK if not all at once. Duration, consistency, timing, and quality matter.

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6. Wearables & Tracking Sleep Quality

• Timing: [24:30]–[25:58]
• Mixed views on tech trackers: Madison finds them "a little too connected," while Jo’s partner uses them for shift-work health ([25:02]).
• The importance of not obsessing over numbers but trusting subjective feelings of restfulness is stressed.

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7. Modern Life, Sleep Pressure, and Routines

• Timing: [26:51]–[32:33]
• Madison: "I walk my dog every morning...come home, cook my dinner, clean up, do my laundry...and then it's late and then I'm wired..." ([27:05])
• Annika recalls earlier years where sleep was always deprioritized: "No wonder I was tired... But then I could still party all weekend" ([28:51]).
• Madison discusses sleep anxiety: "[I'm] so anxious and so tired anyway." ([29:31])
• Emphasis on evening routines as critical—Annika shares her ritual: "I will make myself this, like, magnesium hot chocolate... even showering with the light off and putting a lamp on or a candle." ([30:44])

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8. Practical, Science-Backed Sleep Hacks

• Timing: [33:08]–[39:44]

Dr. Moira Junga's Top Tips ([34:50]):

• Prioritize sleep, but don't try too hard to sleep.
• If you can’t sleep, get up and do something quiet in another room in the dark—then return when sleepy.
• Avoid devices in bed and don’t clock-watch.
• Understand that sleep needs and patterns are highly individual—what works for one may not for another.

Community-Shared Tips:

• Reading in bed
• Personalized bedtime routines (Annika's routine and "no screen time" championed)
• Exercise regularly
• Limit coffee after lunch
• Magnesium supplements
• Podcasts/audiobooks on "dry topics" to lull yourself to sleep
• Kiwi fruit before bed: Now science-backed. Madison: “There is scientific evidence to back up the kiwifruit hack... serotonin is a brain chemical that helps regulate your sleep cycle. Eating fruit like kiwis may help promote better sleep.” ([37:02])

Notable Moment:
Jo’s partner, Adrian, eats kiwi with the skin on: "Oh, that is so disgusting!" (Annika, [36:55])

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9. Sleep Quality: How to Tell if your Sleep is Good

• Timing: [34:22], [38:46]

• Dr. Moira: "You will know by your subjective feelings of alertness throughout the day. Can you wake up with relative ease? Are you able to carry out daily activities with energy? Do you have unintentional naps?"
• Tip: Wait 30–60 minutes after waking before judging your sleep quality.

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10. Implementing Learnings & Closing Thoughts

• Timing: [37:29]–[40:41]

• All hosts plan to integrate new sleep hacks (kiwi fruit, magnesium creams, maintaining routines).

• Madison resonates with the advice not to judge sleep quality immediately upon waking: "Especially because, you know, within like 15 minutes of being up, I'm at my local coffee shop..." ([39:20])

• Final recognition that sleep “is a complicated relationship,” and everyone’s journey is different. "Unfortunately, there is not one gold bullet." (Madison, [40:18])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Burnout & Work:
  "There was a time in my career where I was so available to everybody... my burnout and my stress were so high, like, we're peaking. I went and got my cortisol tested and it was so high, but I was operating and I was functional. I was like, 'oh, so this is a good thing?' and she was like, 'no, this is a sign to slow down...'"
  — Annika ([18:20])
• On Sleep Anxiety:
  "I have such bad sleep anxiety and I sleep so poorly that going to dinner with friends, I'm like, 'well, I'm gonna be tired anyway...'"
  — Madison ([28:59])
• On Routines:
  “I will make myself this, like, magnesium hot chocolate...even showering with the light off and putting a lamp on or a candle. Just little things that would help me."
  — Annika ([30:44])
• On Biohacking with Kiwi:
  “There is scientific evidence to back up the kiwifruit hack. Not just for the Tum Tum, but for the sleep...Serotonin is a brain chemical that helps regulate your sleep cycle.”
  — Madison ([37:02])
• On Judging Sleep:
  “Do not judge your level of sleep quality as soon as you wake up. Give it 30 to 60 minutes and give yourself time to do some exercise. Get in the light and have a shower and then assess…”
  — Dr. Moira Junga ([34:45])
• On Reality of Modern Life:
  "I walk my dog every morning because that's my responsibility...I come home after work and the first thing I do is walk him again, take him to the park. I come home, I cook my dinner, then I have to clean up whatever I've cooked. ... It's exhausting, and then it's late and then I'm wired."
  — Madison ([27:05])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Year of the Horse & fresh starts: [01:26]
• "Olsen hair tuck" fashion hack: [04:22]
• Listener poll on sleep habits: [11:11]
• Community bedtime confessions: [12:09]
• Work & Time Zone Madness: [16:33]
• Mental Health & Burnout: [18:20]
• Dr. Moira Junga’s advice: [23:33], [34:22], [34:50]
• Science of Kiwifruit & Sleep: [37:02]
• Practical, evidence-backed community tips: [36:29]
• Personal sleep routines & building healthy habits: [30:44], [38:08]
• Final thoughts on the complex relationship with sleep: [40:18]

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Episode Takeaways

• Sleep is crucial for health, and most adults benefit from 7–9 hours per night, but quality, consistency, and timing are just as important as raw hours.
• Individual lifestyle, work, family, and mental health all influence sleep patterns—comparison is not always useful.
• Simple routines, limiting screens, using supplements like magnesium, and perhaps eating kiwifruit—backed by science!—are practical takeaways.
• Recognize that many are struggling with sleep—and that’s normal. Prioritize self-kindness over perfection.

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Final Word

The Style-ish team delivers a relatable, genuine exploration of what it really takes to "have the best sleep of your life." They're honest, self-aware, and bring in both scientific and crowd-sourced wisdom. If you've ever wrestled with sleep, you'll find both camaraderie and actionable advice in this warm, witty episode.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This episode of Stylish is made for summer, not sun damage. Let's stop normalizing sun tanning and end the trend.

[C]

This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, lifestyle, brand, and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe. My co hosts today are Joanna Fleming and Annika Joshi Smith. Hello.

[A]

Hello, ladies.

[C]

Guys, I've got to say, I had a really terrific 2025.

[A]

You did.

[C]

And then January's just kind of spun me out a little bit, and I was really going like, no, I don't want 2026 to start off like this. There's just been a lot of, like, very quick pivots needed for me on a lot of fronts. And then I was very gently reminded that it is still the Year of the Snake. Now, I don't know about you, but I felt like I was seeing a lot of, like, oh, it was. Cause it was the year of the Snake, and next year's gonna be the year of the Horse. But a friendly reminder that lunar New Year does not track to calendar year. The year of the Snake actually finishes on February 16th, and then the year of the horse begins on February 17th. So I was like, oh, just doing some final shedding.

[A]

We are.

[B]

I think you really are knowing what's going on and moving in all of that kind of jazz.

[C]

Jo, I know you have your phone handy.

[B]

I do.

[C]

Do you have a little synopsis of the Year of the Horse, what it might mean for us all?

[B]

I do, yes. I just brought up a Vogue article, and in this article, they say that in simple terms, the Year of the Horse represents rapid change, fresh opportunities, personal growth, and a faster pace of life.

[C]

Oh, good. Sounds like those pivots gonna have to keep coming, actually, when you read it like that.

[A]

Yeah. I'm actually quite relieved because I feel like. And I don't know about you guys, but I came back to work and I hit the ground running. And I've also. You know when you have a reset, like, after the holidays, and you're kind of like, does this still serve me? Am I still into this? Am I not? Well, I came to so many conclusions starting this year about things that no longer serve me, and I'm still getting rid of them, but I'm making way with a refreshed mindset, and it's actually feeling really good. So I'm quite happy that I've got until February 16th to do the final shed and welcome the new.

[C]

I am, too, because I actually give myself January off from response. Like, I am, like, January surviving, not thriving for me.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So I always think, like, I love, you know, the Australian Open's been on. It's busy. I love going to the tenant, all those things. So I'm like, there's not really regular programming in January. It's still a bit of no man's land. February unlocked the fuck in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because everyone loves a circle back. I'm guilty. I'm so guilty. Everyone is myself.

[C]

Everyone's you.

[B]

Yeah. I was straight back into it on January 2nd. Yeah, I was.

[C]

When you were like, after the break, I was like, Joe and I are like, what break?

[A]

What break, darl?

[B]

Okay, well, we thought because we're doing an IUL episode today, that that would be a good way to kind of, you know, start the episode talking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So for those of you who aren't familiar with our IUL episode, this is more lifestyle focused content from us. So in this episode, we'll be focusing on something that we all do and something many of us wish we could get more of, which is sleep. But first, what do we want to swap in this week before we jump into chatting about sleep?

[A]

Okay, so speaking of February, February on our fashion calendars, everybody, is New York Fashion Week and such an exciting time. This is the first time that I'm sitting out market with my team, and I'm devastated because mommy can't travel, but I'm already looking ahead, so I'm feeling super inspired when it comes to, like, winter fashion. It's, like, so hot in Melbourne right now, so it seems outrageous, but I am just so excited for winter fashion and turtlenecks, funnel necks. We all know that there'll be a resurgence that we're making their way backs into our wardrobe. And one thing I've always struggled with is the Olsen hair tuck.

[C]

Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

[A]

And I feel like you'd be the perfect candidate because you've got long hair like me and Jo, our perfect pristine princess over there. Don't know if she struggles with this or not, but whenever I do an Olsen hair tuck, I get this, like, bulge and I look like a mushroom head. Like, it's not chic. It's not sitting nicely.

[B]

It's hard to keep in there. It is. It also gets really knotty.

[A]

So knotty. And it gets back.

[C]

It's, like, matted.

[B]

It fully gets matted.

[A]

Okay, well, today I'm gonna swap Grace E. Nicholas on Instagram, and we'll post up the video as well. But her trick to getting the perfect Olsen tuck, she actually puts her hair into two plats. And then has it sitting obviously side by side in her plats. Has her turtleneck on and then like teases out just soft bits across the top. Yeah. She looks so chic every single time.

[B]

Are they really loose? Wait, is it one braid?

[A]

Two.

[C]

Two. So two p. Tail bits on both sides. What I will preface is you probably need layers for this. Like, I don't have a lot of layers. I got long layers. I think if you have longer length hair with no layering, you could look a little like Lord Farquaad.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If you're not careful.

[B]

But also you'd have a part at the back, wouldn't you? If you did, could you do it in one plait?

[A]

I reckon you could do it in one plant. I mean, if you're going middle part, let's test it. But I feel like it's a total vibe because I always wear a middle part. So I feel like anyway, if I was to pull it back, I do have layers as well. I'd probably actually I'd be the perfect candidate.

[C]

Oh, who's the perfect princess in the group now?

[A]

But yeah, that's my swap. And I actually heard content in general is just really cool. She's like just a cool girl all around. So give her a follow. Check it out.

[C]

We love a cool girl rack.

[A]

Yes. Mst. What have you got?

[C]

So my swap this week I realized that I hadn't had a fashion swap for a while.

[A]

You have that and it's been illegal.

[C]

Being asleep at the wheel. So my swap this week is actually from Melbourne based brand Deering, who you might know for their sunglasses and their clothing. But just little quietly behind the scenes, drop some shoes. And my new favourite shoes, no less. Just held them up to the camera even though this is a normal.

[B]

I've seen these on Instagram because I follow Erin Dearing, the founder of Dearing, former founder of Triangle.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And they're so sexy.

[A]

They're so.

[B]

I love them so much.

[C]

I got served their campaign video, which I just thought was a bloody great campaign video. And immediately purchased. I'm just slipping my footwear back on, look. I mean, bonus swap. Follow Erin. We've interviewed her, re interviewed her on Face to Face. She's an absolute powerhouse, but also just has great dress sense. I can't say that I'm shopping in Erin's price bracket, but I do enjoy it for a little bit of inspo. Yeah, look, they were definitely a premium price point. They were $550. And I am really, really hesitant to spend significant money on shoes. Cause I'm so heavy footed. So unless it's a boot or a sneaker, I really just don't invest. But I saw these and the way that I ran to cartoon. They also come in a really great poppy coral color.

[B]

But I have burgundy. I would get those in a.

[C]

You know, burgundy are great. And I wear them with black and denim a lot.

[A]

Yes, Shake.

[C]

Erin was actually in there when I was going in just to try on some other stuff, but I'd already bought the shoes and I was like, erin, I'm obsessed. I'm, like, excited to go somewhere to wear them. And I was like, would you do them in black? And she was like, no, they're supposed to be fun. Like, burgundy is our black. And I was like, I love. I love that I've worn them so much. I love them. At the moment, I do think they're out of stock, but I know they're recutting them. And they also come in, as I said, a really fun coral.

[A]

The coral color as well. It's kind of giving our shameless media logo color. Like, I feel like it's almost rude not for us to all own a pair.

[C]

But they're also really comfy.

[A]

Yeah, they look comfy. They look. So when you walked into the studio today, all of us were like, you look so chic. And they are the perfect finishing touch.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[C]

I will say with a mini skirt as well. Oh, magic things for the legs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Anyway, thanks, Dearing.

[B]

Obsessed.

[C]

Jo, what have you got?

[B]

No surprises here. We've got a cleaning one today.

[C]

Great. Yeah, My favourite. I'm locked in.

[B]

The people love the cleaning reps.

[A]

They do.

[C]

You know, I've come around too.

[A]

We've taken notes, we've taken mini and not.

[B]

I'm just giving the people what they want. Today's swap is the Vamouche pet hair dissolver, which I get from Amazon. Dog hair is the bane of my existence. Honestly, this dog hair on our dog, here's a Weimaraner, and this is wiry hair. It does not come out of anything. It is not like golden retriever hair, where you can pick it up with one of those sticky things or like a lint roller. It will not come up with anything even if you wash it. So I end up with so much dog hair in the washing machine after I do his bedding. So I put this stuff in and it's not a miracle worker. Let me just say that don't have, like, super high expectations, but it's probably reduced the amount of pet hair. Left in the machine by about 60%. Wow. I need to say so it significantly reduces the amount of hair that's in there, which means I don't have to spend as much time cleaning it out afterwards. And then I do a drum clean and all of those extra things that I have to do between doing my next like normal laundry cycle. So it just makes a massive difference to the cleanup after doing the bedding. So I think if you have the same problem and you have a dog that sheds hair because yours doesn't. Annika.

[A]

No, I'm l is perfect.

[B]

What can I say then you may want to invest. But I do want to flag expect still some pet hair. Just not as much as there was before.

[C]

Anything that reduces pet hair even by 10%, sign me up.

[B]

I mean same. I think some people I read the reviews, I'm like, clearly they expected it to be dissolving every ounce of hair that was on the bedding or whatever they were washing. But it reduces it. So just keep that in mind. But it has worked well for our situation.

[C]

Progress, not perfection.

[A]

I wonder if I could use it in the drains because that's the one thing I get in trouble about at home. Like James, like I will never like pull out my hair when it mops down the drain.

[C]

Drain killer will probably do that for you.

[A]

Drainer.

[C]

Sorry.

[A]

Anyway.

[B]

All right, we are learning all about you, our listeners. Sleep habits. After a word from today's sponsor, we've all got our own way of appreciating the Aussie summer. Some of us get to the beach as much as humanly possible. And some of us prefer to stay inside with the aircon cranked. But here's the thing. Even if you're not the beachy type, you're bound to spend time in the sun. It's impossible to escape. In fact, it takes just 15 minutes in the sun for damage to start. So your coffee run or your post Pilates walk home can do more harm than you think. And given the UV is especially harsh in Australia, it's really important that you protect yourself these days. Two in three Aussies will be diagnosed with skin cancer in their lifetime. And if you're hoping to avoid premature aging, you might be interested to know that 80% of visible premature aging is due to sun exposure. Thankfully, by making sun protection part of your daily routine, you can massively reduce your chances of skin cancer and premature aging. When you're heading out, especially over summer, be sure to slip, slop, slap, seek and slide. It's your new self care mantra. Thank you so much to the Cancer council in the Australian government for making this episode of Stylish possible. You know, we love to get a feel for what you guys are thinking and feeling. So last week we put a survey out to you on Instagram all about sleep. We wanted to know how much you're getting on average and what time you usually go to bed, among other things. You might remember that we had this viral video on our style. Was it our stylish socials or shameless socials?

[C]

Stylish socials.

[B]

It was stylish and we went around the office and everyone was sharing their bedtimes and it went off. It really divided the community, honestly.

[C]

The community and beyond it, like viral. It had over a million views.

[B]

Yeah, majorly viral. So let's start off with some stats. First, we asked how well you sleep and I'm going to round some percentages here just for the sake of ease. So 48% of you said you sleep pretty well, 26% of you said sometimes. Well, 11% of you said really well, 10% of you said badly, and 5% of you said you really struggle with it or you have insomnia. Now, in terms of bedtimes, 46.5%, the majority of you said you go to bed between 9pm and 10pm that surprised me that it feels early in terms of my normal bedtimes, but I don't know, maybe that's normal. Do you guys feel like that's normal bedtime?

[C]

I have deep shame.

[B]

Okay, we'll get into that. Let me continue. Followed by 29% going to bed between 10 and 11 and 15% between 8.

[A]

And 9pm I actually fall into this category. So my phone goes on like quiet mode or do not disturb at 8:44. And I try to be offline, like specific.

[C]

Yeah, that's weirdly specific.

[A]

I know, don't ask. I just don't know. Sometimes I surprise myself to it. Anyway, I try to have no screen time so I can actually fall asleep by 9:30. So I'm trying like I'm genuinely in bed by 9:30.

[B]

What are you doing in bed? Are you reading or something in bed or. Sorry if that's an invasive question or something else.

[A]

Come on over. Come into my bedroom. We try to actually just like connect and talk. So James and I being. We connect before bedtime and that means like, maybe I might even just like get into bed. We'll chat together or like I have a moment with Miso, my dog, and I just tell him how much I love him before the baby comes along and we can noodle. I've got quite a soft side guys, but I literally tried to be offline from 8:44 and like no screen time, no nothing. So don't even try to get hold of me at that time. And if I do respond to you, consider yourself so lucky.

[B]

I feel like you have responded to me within those hours.

[A]

So I feel I like you.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you.

[C]

Yeah, it's in our group chat which is called the Boo Boos.

[B]

Yes. I think you have a similar bedtime to me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you between 11 and 12? Yeah, same.

[C]

I used to be really rigid too. I used to be so good. Like I would always be in bed by 9:30 and try and get to sleep by about 10:30 because it does take me a while to get to sleep. And then I just think over the years as work has gotten more demanding, I really just don't feel that there are enough hours in the day for me to do everything that I need to do. And I work really late. I then, you know, like to have a bit of brain run time scrolling. I like to read things, I like to watch things. I go to bed really late and I still get up quite early. What time do you go to bed, Jo?

[B]

At the moment it's between 11 and 12, depending on the night. But as you said, like I also work relatively late hours. So on some evenings, like my last client doesn't finish till 7 and then by the time I've eaten dinner and we've cleaned up and we've done the things that we need to do and had showers and then we're like sitting down to watch our TV show and as you guys know, eat my orange at 9:30 and my blueberries. Yeah, the fruit's changed by the way.

[C]

Oh, what is it?

[B]

At the moment it's currently a mango and a plum. Oh yum.

[C]

Should I come over? That sounds like a bit of me.

[B]

Adrian can cut it up for you. He does it in little pieces like I like anyway. And by the time we're sitting down to watch our show, it's 9:30 and then that show goes for an hour and then we're getting ready for bed and so then it's 11 and sometimes we're even starting it later. But I always like to watch the show, you know.

[A]

Can I ask you guys then what time are you waking up if you are going to bed soon?

[C]

So late. I have two alarms and I'll pick which time I want to wake up depending on the time I'm going To sleep?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I either get up at 5:50 or 6:20.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, not that early. Depends if I have Pilates. Honestly I've had a big break from Pilates at the moment and I've just been doing dog walks. But if I was doing a 7am Pilates class I would try to go to bed earlier because I need eight hours. But at the moment, depending on what I have on the next day, probably 7:30.

[A]

Okay. So because obviously with my business as well, I've got like the craziest business hours and a goal I made for myself this year was actually sticking to my bedtime and getting those eight hours. But then I could at least have a bit more flexibility in the morning because I'm noticing which is so weird for me. I'm more of a morning person at the moment and I feel like I'm so much more engaged so I like to be available to like international clients as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm getting like the most out of my days in the morning.

[B]

Okay. I think it also depends on how your brain works as well because I don't think I am fully functioning in the morning. I feel like my brain at the moment, at this time in my life works better, better in the evenings. So I often find I can just be away on emails and I won't even realize what time it is and it's really late and I'm not even tired whereas in the morning I feel like I'm a bit sluggish. I'm more likely to get distracted and be on my phone and scrolling TikTok. I'm not really like that in the evenings for some reason.

[C]

There's real hallmarks of me when my sleep became quite poor. I really tie it to my career progression like I think as I've. And it's not even just working more, it's as work has become more stressful and strenuous on my brain. But it's also, there's definitely a marker for me of last year. I think it was in January when I started like a nine month project working with Tower 28 and I was looking after Australia, UK, Middle East.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Wow, like time zones, nightmare. But you're then working with a US based team so I could be on calls at 2 or 3am my time, have to go back to sleep, get back up at seven to catch them for three hours, then like you kind of have like a call with Mecca at 8:39 o'.

[B]

Clock.

[C]

It was fine. I'd have the day and then I'd be back on at like, 4pm until, like, 11. I was like. I was like the walking dead. I did it. So when people like you, a morning person or a night owl, I'm like, I can be whatever you want me to be, baby. I've done it all. But I love getting up in the mornings. I just hate feeling sluggish.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you normally feel sluggish when you wake up at that time after you've gone to bed late?

[C]

Yeah. I am perpetually tired.

[A]

All right.

[C]

I'm exhausted.

[B]

That leads me into our next percentages. Because we asked how many hours of sleep everyone is getting, 58.8% said they're getting between six to seven. 35% are getting eight hours, plus 6% of you are getting four to five hours, and 0.38% are getting three hours or less.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So I assume those are the people with either sleep disorders or young children that are answering that question. Are you guys surprised by any of this data at all?

[C]

I was surprised at the bedtimes and I was surprised that most people are getting, like, six to seven hours. Oh, people getting over eight. Like, I just. I'm so jealous, because there's one thing, right, the time that you go to bed. So some people can go to sleep really easily, but you don't get the sleep you need. Do you know what I mean? Like, the way that you sleep is very different because quality 6 hours sleep, or if you went to bed at midnight and got up at 6, but that's 6 solid hours for someone who goes to bed at 9:30, but might wake up every hour, might get up twice in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, like, might still need half an hour to get back to sleep. Like that. Those nine hours in bed very quickly becomes six hours. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Totally.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I think as well, something that's actually become a really common topic in my friendship circle at the moment is burnout. How prevalent it is and how much it's happening to so many people who not only run their own businesses, but who work in international roles. And like you were just saying before, Mads, I do global sales as well. We've got clients, we've got brands that are based overseas, we've got retailers all over the world. There was a time in my career where I was so available to everybody. And during that period, probably, I'm going to say the first five years of Sage, my burnout and my stress was so high, like, we're peaking. Like, I remember I went and got my cortisol tested and it was so high, but I was operating and I was functional. And I was like, oh, so this is a good thing? And she was like, no, this is a sign to slow down, actually reassess how you can optimize that time and use that time, which I think only now is something I'm trying to take. Actually, no, that's a lie. In the last six months, it's something I've really tried to focus on because one baby's made me. And it's just something that now, like, sleep has become such a priority to me and my wellbeing. But it's so crazy seeing the shifts in myself and, like, my brain and how I can actually operate when I prioritize sleep versus when I look back at the girl that was running on constant adrenaline for so long, like, kicked goals. Don't get me wrong, but was I happy? Was I healthy? Was I the best version of myself? Yeah.

[C]

I'm surprised that so many are getting over, like, six hours.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Because I think our audience are kind of in that age bracket where they are working really hard and probably feeling pretty wired, you know, getting home. Like, anxiety is so prevalent, and I think anxiety and sleep, like, are just mortal enemies, but completely tied.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I think if you've never experienced issues with sleep, you probably wouldn't realize how debilitating it is to have a sleep disorder or have trouble with sleeping. Like, I remember over covert. I was a terrible sleeper and I'd never experienced sleep issues before. Yeah, never. I don't know what it was about it, if it was just causing me, like, underlying stress that I didn't realize on the outside, or if I just had nowhere for my energy to go. And that's what I put it down to. I was like, I was so used to being in an office every day and rushing there and then working hard and then, you know, coming home and doing what I needed to do at home, and I felt like I was always on the go, and then suddenly I was just sitting at home all day and I'm like, my brain's not working the way it used to, and my energy's not being burnt the way it used to, and I struggled to go to sleep and stay asleep.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I really sympathize with those people that are experienced insomnia or other issues with sleeping, you know, even if it's mental health related, because it really can completely drain you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's also really hard to resolve, and it might be a really long process of Resolving that. So if that is you and you're kind of feeling bad about these statistics, like, oh, my God, why am I not getting six hours sleep? Trust me, you're not the only person that is experiencing it.

[C]

No. When has been the time of your life you've felt you've had the best ever sleep?

[B]

Probably now when I was in the womb.

[A]

No kidding? Actually, yeah, probably. I reckon before starting Sage, if I'm being perfectly honest.

[B]

Really? Yeah.

[A]

And like, I've only just started to reprioritize my sleep and actually force myself because I'm so fucking tired all the time now to slow down and actually look after myself. But I'll be totally lying if I said now that, like, I am building this better relationship with sleep. I'm petrified for what's about to happen to that relationship in the next eight weeks when baby comes along. Like, I've got to a point where I'm like actually feeling rested and recharged. That's gonna be gone in a hot minute.

[B]

That's good though, that you've had that time to kind of reset yourself in that relationship with sleep beforehand.

[C]

Yeah, Mine was actually during COVID my best sleep because I was running a lot. I over exercised during COVID for sure. To use much to your point. I'm like, hello, no surprises extrovert over here. Like, really missed that and really found that I needed to get rid of that energy somehow. So, like doing. You know, I had this gorgeous girlfriend, Lou McCrae, who was doing online pilates classes for all of us. I would do those. I was running a hell of a lot. I was training for a half marathon. So it's almost like my body was so exhausted that it just had to sleep.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I kind of knocked myself out.

[A]

Overexerted in one area and recharged in the other. Thank you for finishing that.

[C]

Next we're going to explore just how important sleep really is from a health perspective. But that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

[A]

The Australian Open has been incredible, as per usual, and best believe we'll be squeezing in a couple more visits. Not just for the tennis or the live music or the food, but for the fashion. From the on court style of players like Coco Gauffe to Melbourne's most stylish punters, the AO has become a certified cultural Runway. And brands like New Balance are leading the charge. This year, New Balance is doing what it does best. Bringing fashion, sport and culture together at their very own New Balance store. On the ground at the AO Drop in before the tournament wraps up on February 1st, and explore the collection that's built for the game and life beyond it. A huge thank you to New Balance for making this episode of stylish possible. Okay, so sleep is obviously a pretty complicated thing and it's something so many of us struggle with, but we wanted to get an understanding of just how important it is and how it can impact our health. We reached out to Dr. Moira Junga, the CEO of the Sleep Health foundation and a health psychologist who specializes in sleep disorders, who told us that sleep is a crucial part of our health. She said it is just as important as your diet and your level of physical fitness. When we don't get adequate sleep, we are a short term risk of feeling less able to concentrate, lower reaction times, lower alertness, risk of injuries and accidents. Longer term, we have a greater risk of mental health conditions, being overweight or obese, cardiovascular disease, some cancers and some dementias. In terms of how much sleep we should be getting, she says we need at least 7 to 9 hours per 24 hours. But it doesn't have to be all at once and unbroken. Some people can cope with morally sleep too, but 6 to 10 hours is the normal range. Duration of sleep is just one important factor of many. Consistency, timing, and quality are also key factors. Okay, guys, how does that make you feel?

[B]

Do you guys use an Apple watch or an aura ring or anything to track your sleep?

[A]

No, don't. But I've actually been thinking about this lately and whether or not I should be.

[B]

Do you guys.

[C]

It might be time for me on the Oura ring. I know we've previously spoken about devices. I think I opened up that like Apple watch and I. We got just a little too connected. So I think sometimes it's important to be able to step away. And I mean, I think I also laughed on that EP saying, like, you know, some girlfriends will be like, how'd you sleep? And they'll be like, let me check my sleep score. And I'm like, hey, you're a big girl. Do you want to recall your experience without the little ring telling you what?

[B]

So Adrian actually does this, really? But the reason that he does it is because he's a shift worker. So he likes to see what his average sleep was over, you know, a period of a few weeks. Because some night shifts, he could have a really bad night where he's awake the entire night working. And sometimes they'll sleep the entire night as well, which is not as common. And they might only get one call or something that he's able to go back to sleep. So it just kind of depends on what that week looks like. And sometimes he'll have times where he's getting seven hours and that's on average. And he's like happy with that. But when it's looking like five hours on average over a period of a couple of weeks, you know, has. He's had a few really bad nights there, which he does speak about openly with me. And he's like, I am kind of concerned for my health because there is all these long term risks. So I was already aware of that because he's a shift worker and that it's spoken about a lot with, I think like an oh and S kind of thing that is a factor to be really mindful of your sleep and your sleep hygiene and all those kinds of practices. But it's pretty scary.

[C]

Yeah, really scary. And I think as well, like, I am someone who, you know, I think I said that one thing I wanted to focus on for the year was health. I can't remember if I said that on Mike. I was just telling you guys. So we're having a gap. But I am someone who walks kind of like anywhere between like 11 and probably 16,000 steps a day. I have a big golden retriever that I, you know, walk Georgie baby, shout out to him. You know, I try and eat really clean, like good food. You know, I'm not overly obsessed with that. Like, I still eat pasta, like, hello, girl's gotta live. But, you know, I would never usually put sleep equal to going to Pilates, going for a walk, eating, you know, greens and green smoothies and having chicken soups and things like that. And so I feel shameful. I know we touched on sleep previously in a segment, but it makes me feel like I'm like doing something wrong. But as I said, it's like, it's exhausting trying to do everything in life.

[B]

Yeah. And those. That information will probably freak a few people out if they haven't heard that, you know, increased risk of even things like dementias as well. That might be scary information for some people to. They feel like they've had a few years of really shit sleep and I'm.

[C]

Exhausted and I don't want to play the single girl card. But like, I look after my household as a singular person. Like, there's no weight bearing on activities and outsourcing comes at a cost. Right. I come, I'm not in a position to pay someone to come do my laundry every week. I do pay for a cleaner once a Month. That's one thing that I'm like, I just need something off my plate. But it's like I walk my dog every morning because that's my responsibility. I come home after work and the first thing I do is walk him again, take him to the park. I come home, I cook my dinner, then I have to clean up whatever I've cooked. I. I've then got to do like my life admin, do my emails, get back online, do work, put my activewear in the washing machine, clean the shower because I gotta get my hair out of the dry. Like it's exhausting and that takes time. And then it's late and then I'm wired and I want to wind down. I want to text my friends back, I want to watch the show that you girls all recommend and I'm left out because I haven't watched it. Like, girl is tired and I don't want to feel like I'm going to get dementia because I've got to do all those things.

[A]

I know there's so much better pressure, right? And even when you list all of those things, you kind of stop and think, like, we do so much in a day, like, of course we're going to be exhausted, of course we're going to be tired. And then it also makes me think of my younger self and probably the version of myself that might relate more to our audience's age. But I remember going to work and working like a full day, being so present, being so on, then going to an event after work, whether that was like catching up with friends or maybe like going to a show, doing something where you're still on connected, present, getting home super late. And then you kind of just get to use to the cycle because you want to be connected, you want to socialize. You might only have time to see your friendship group after work if they work weekends. And like, as a retail girly, that happened to me all the time.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So then I would have this vicious relationship with sleep where it was such a low priority. No wonder I was tired. But then I could still party all weekend.

[C]

Do you know what? It's really, it's funny though. I spoke about this recently with some girlfriends when we were out for dinner. I was saying, I think I'm in that vicious cycle at the moment because I have such bad sleep anxiety and I sleep so poorly that going to the dinner with the friends, I'm like, oh, well, I'm gonna be tired anyway. Even when I do go to bed at 10 o', clock, I sleep like, shit, I'm anxious about what? You know, am I gonna get enough? Am I gonna finally wake up feeling good? I'm like, well, I'd rather be out for dinner until 9:30 and then get home at 10, shower, wind down, be in bed at 11. I'm like, oh, well, that fills my cup more than trying to get the sleep because I'm so anxious and so tired anyway.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So when people go, how do you do it all? I'm like, I don't sleep. And I'm not joking when I say that to you. When people like, I just like, feel like you're like, thriving. And I'm like, on, no sleep.

[B]

On no sleep.

[C]

On, no sleep.

[A]

Okay, well, with that in mind, is there anything you both want to change about, like, your sleeping patterns, behaviours, relationship with sleep at the moment?

[C]

My psychologist and I have worked together a lot on, like, sleep anxiety and just anxiety in general. For me to like, really be able to wind down. I like, try and do the deviceless thing, but I think we get obsessed on the prep of sleep. For me, I think the thing I'm trying to change about sleep is how anxious I feel before going to bed. Like that hour before bed, fuck if I don't get to sleep. You know, it's 11. If I don't get to sleep by 12 and then I've got to. But I book Pilates and I want to walk George. And it's really awful. It's terrible and it's consuming and it's every night.

[A]

It's a lot. Do you know something? Like, I did, and this might not work for anyone else, but when I was trying to adjust and start prioritizing sleep, I got into a routine that I actually really loved. So, like, part of my routine is like, taking off my makeup and like, cleansing my face, doing my nighttime skincare. Like, I don't know why, but I will stand in the mirror and talk to myself. Like, I'm on YouTube and this is my channel.

[C]

Welcome back.

[A]

Like, and I will make myself this, like, magnesium hot chocolate. And I'll have that. I will do all the things. And it gets me into like, the state where I just feel like a little bit more, I guess, disconnected and relaxed because I was the same. It's like, literally, I would be so wired if I had like a 7am meeting in the morning. Yeah, I would be thinking about that before bed and it would kind of consume me and drain me that I would go to sleep and dream about that. Like, I had to put something in place so my brain could actually somehow switch off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I found doing these little routines and things that I actually love, like the nighttime shower, like even showering with the light off and putting a lamp on or a candle.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Just little things that would help me.

[C]

The little light.

[A]

Yeah, the little light.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, it's also really hard when. And I really empathize with our audience and like seeing the results of them, seeing whether they're having good sleep or not. Like, it depends what's going on in your life as well.

[A]

It does.

[C]

Because I have had a lengthy, painful divorce. I have been running a business, I have been doing this podcast. At any one time, the amount of things that are rattling around in my brain, that are exciting, that are terribly concerning, that are stressful, it's really taxing. And unfortunately, when you lie down and turn the lights off and you have a moment of silence in a very busy day, it's like watching a phone, like, ding, ding, ding, ding. It's like watching a girls group chat go off. It's like, don't forget that. Did you pay the lawyer's bills? Have you called that friend? How's the girlfriend that had the baby? Oh, you told her you were going to pop in next Wednesday, but shit, you've got that meeting now. Like, that's like the sound. It's a ping pong machine.

[B]

Yeah. I think my relationship with sleep is so much better now because I'm probably the most at peace and like happiest. I'm just like not that concerned about anything right now. Whereas in Covid, I was going through a breakup, I was like, yeah, moved home to my parents place, I was trying to buy a property. I was. There was a lot kind of going on mentally and I feel like I was in that same position that you're in now. And I fully empathize with that feeling of just being like, am I gonna ever get like a good sleep ever again? Is this my new normal?

[C]

Yeah. And I'm petrified because I'm like, wait, so I slept when I was unhappy and now my life's the best it's ever been and I don't fucking sleep. I'm like, damn it, am I gonna have to go back to being miserable? No, you were not.

[A]

Well, what do you always say? Oh, sorry. What does Rhiannon Joyce always say?

[C]

Two things can be true.

[A]

There we look.

[C]

I have done some things. I've started magnesium.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Definitely on the wind down ritual. A neighbour of mine gave me some magnesium and introduced me to a sleepy tea I'm like, great, love a sleepy tea. Love a sleepy tea. And you know what, sometimes a bit of placebo works too. Like, I don't know if it's a thing that I do. Like I've sent is a really big thing for me. So like I love a nice body moisturiser before bed. I use the this works deep sleep pillow spray. Like those little things kind of put a little pep in my step. All right, now that we've covered our relationship with sleep and the way that it impacts our lives, we've just had about 42 rants from me, so you definitely know how it's impacting mine. But we wanted to share some practical science backed hacks and tips that can actually help us sleep better. So you better believe all of our ears are listening. We asked Dr. Moira how can we tell if the sleep we're getting is good quality sleep, which I think is really important. As I said, bedtime and good quality sleep are not the same thing. And she says you will know by your subjective feelings of alertness throughout the day. That is, can you wake up with relative ease. How alert and awake do you feel if you're able to carry out your daily activities with energy? Ask yourself, do you have unintentional naps? Like are you falling asleep during the day slash evening without wanting to, when driving or in meetings or movies? I don't know about you guys. I think if I fell asleep in a meeting, I'd get fired.

[A]

And driving asleep at the wheel, that just could be severe anxiety.

[C]

Yeah. She says do not judge your level of sleep quality. As soon as you wake up, give it 30 to 60 minutes and give yourself time to do some exercise. Get in the light and have a shower and then assess if you're awake enough to get on with your day.

[B]

Okay. Cause I'm normally like, oh, I'm tired as soon as I wake up, but then once I'm up, I'm good.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

This is fascinating to me. Okay, so now for some tips. For decades, Dr. Moira was a psychologist for people who struggled to get to sleep. I might have to give her a call. And that was mainly due to insomnia and nightmares. So she's got, safe to say, a wealth of knowledge on this topic. But the thing with sleep, annoyingly is there's not really a golden bullet. Unfortunate for you, this is how Dr. Moira summarizes her top evidence based sleep tips. Prioritise sleep, but try not to try too hard to sleep. Let it come to you. If you don't sleep well and you're lying there awake in your bed getting frustrated, get up and do something else that's quiet. Sitting or lying in another room in the dark. Example, listen to a podcast, ideally Stylish or one of the other shameless media podcasts. Then return to bed when sleepy. You also need to learn not to have your phone or device in bed with you, to not watch the clock on your device, and to realise that sleep is highly individual, you need to personalise it to you and your preferences, age, gender, needs. It's likely to be very different even to your partner, friends, sisters. We also have some sleep tips from you guys to share. Reading in bed before going to sleep was definitely the most common response we got from all of you, with many of you finding that it really helps you drift off. Some other very common responses were having a personalized bedtime routine that works for you. Hi Annika. But also sticking to it. Keep out there having no screen time in the lead up to bed, exercising regularly, limiting coffee after lunchtime, and taking magnesium supplements. Quite a few of you also recommended listening to podcasts or audiobooks about a dry topic like investing or history.

[B]

I was gonna say, does that mean like. Cause a lot of my friends are listening to smut books and I don't know that that's making you sleepy.

[C]

It might help you with a great dream, but it's probably not gonna get you sleepy, is it? And a handful of you swear by eating a kiwi fruit right before bed.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I could probably integrate that.

[A]

You could?

[C]

Adrian, you've just gotta chop it up.

[B]

Right?

[C]

I do have a kiwi every day.

[B]

You have a kiwi every day? Yeah. Do you?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's so good for you.

[C]

Good for your Tum Tum. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, well, Adrian eats it with the skin on and that gives me the same. Oh, that is so disgusting.

[A]

Oh my. Sorry.

[C]

Okay, well, stay with me. There is scientific evidence to back up the kiwifruit hack. Not just for the Tum Tum, but for the sleep. Sleep. The Nine Eyes Healthline says that the sleep promoting effects of kiwis are sometimes attributed to serotonin. Serotonin is a brain chemical that helps regulate your sleep cycle. Eating a diet rich in fruit like kiwis may help promote better sleep.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Interesting. I've never heard that before, but I'm really gonna take that on board. Adrian, if you're listening kiwis on the.

[C]

Shopping list, I mean, I figure, what's the difference between having it at 7:30am versus like 9:00pm Totally. I'm just going to flip it in reverse of all of those tips and hacks, and thanks to Dr. Moira and all of the audience, we've got quite a few. What stood out to you the most? Like, what can you see yourselves implementing?

[B]

Obviously the kiwi. Yeah, I'm absolutely adding that straight away.

[A]

I'm already doing the routine, but I think something that I recently started incorporating was magnesium and magnesium products.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I've actually got this really beautiful magnesium cream that I've been putting all over my body, which I absolutely love. But there's like the Salt Lab sea spray as well that you can put on the bottom of your feet and that's meant to work wonders.

[B]

I've got that at home.

[A]

So when I'm not pregnant, I absolutely love the Lemme Gummies. Like, they are a game changer. I'm obsessed with them. And then also the Akari Sleep tonic.

[B]

They're a supplements gal.

[A]

Supplements, girly.

[C]

Anything else aside from the kiwi for you?

[B]

I have dabbled in the true protein. Zma, I think it's called. That's also a magnesium and zinc supplement. Adrienne takes that one as well as Let me sleep. But yeah, really just staying in a routine. I think that's what helps me. I'm a very routine driven person. So we do the same thing pretty much every night. Unless obviously Adrian's at work. But still I'm doing something similar before I go to sleep, even if he's not there.

[C]

Yeah, I think I maybe need to implement more rigid routine. I also just really like not assessing your sleep based on when you wake up. So not getting enough. But the reality is I do a lot in my day and I'm pretty energized. I'm. I would say six days a week on one coffee a day at the moment, which is a big deal for me. I've really cut back.

[B]

You don't come across to me as fatigued. So I did like that tip from her that was like, if you are groggy as soon as you wake up, maybe that's not an indicator that you had a really shit sleep. See how you feel an hour later once you've just kind of, you know, allowed yourself to wake up a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[C]

Especially because, you know, within like 15 minutes of being up, I'm at my local coffee shop and I remember once I was with one of my girlfriends and we were out on a walk and I was like, you know, I'm not much of a morning person. She was like, I think your barista would care to disagree. I'm like, morning. How are we? Oh, the sun's shining. It's gonna be beautiful today. 28. I'm like, they're probably like, please, we are waking up. We do not need this.

[B]

So I've been there since five, so I think they're probably awake.

[C]

But can I get along? Ice black with a dash of honey. But I think some really, really valuable tips here. And I think, like, ultimately, this whole episode has highlighted how important sleep is. But also, I think it's important to just, like, lace that with. We know that it is a complicated relationship a lot of people will have. It's not singular. It doesn't go in a straight line. There are different life stages, different stresses, different things that keep you up, different things that help you sleep. Like, it's just a very complicated triangle. And unfortunately, there is not one gold bullet.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But we love hearing from our experts, and we love our are you well?

[B]

Series, and we love our listeners contributing, most importantly.

[C]

Yeah. But that's all for this week's episode of Stylish. Thank you very much for joining us. And as Jo said, thank you for all of your tidbits and advice. I know I'll be taking a lot of them. You're going to watch three women eat kiwi fruit every night now. Thank you very much to both you, Joanna Fleming and Annika Joshi Smith.

[A]

Thanks, meds.

[C]

Oh, God. In unison, too. Remember, you can drop us an email anytime@style-ishameless media.com or you can slide on into our DMs over StylishPod. Or, of course, a very, very big thank you, as always, to our shameless media team, head of podcast, Lucy Hunt, and our senior podcast producer, Kate Emma Burke. You'll hear from Ri and I back here this Friday and all of us back here next Wednesday. See you then.

[A]

Bye. Good night.

[C]

Good night. Night.

[A]

This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be aboriginal land.