How much would you sacrifice to work in fashion?

Summary

Style-ish Podcast: "How much would you sacrifice to work in fashion?"

Host: Joanna Fleming
Co-hosts: Anika Kajoshi Smith and Rhiannon Joyce (with Mads away)
Date: September 2, 2025
Podcast Theme: Style-ish covers all things fashion, branding, business, and beauty—with an honest, playful, and inside-out view of industry trends and culture.

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Overview

In this episode, the Style-ish "quad squad" (as they jokingly dub themselves) dive into the sacrifices of working in fashion, the fallout and rebirth of Dion Lee’s iconic brand, the battle over influencer authenticity, beauty industry side effects, and a fiery debate about fair pay and toxic culture around fashion’s entry-level jobs. Woven through are real-world anecdotes, sharp observations, a taste for ethical debate, and practical fashion/beauty tips.

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Key Discussion Points

[00:55] Jet-setting Updates: New York & London Fashion Weeks

• Joanna and Anika share their upcoming trips to the New York and London Fashion Weeks, including planning travel outfits for both style and practicality.
• Travel hack: Anika preps Polaroids of all her wardrobe options to beat jet lag and maximize relaxing mornings.
  "If you're jet lagged, it's the best trick—have your outfit planned, then have more time with coffee and eggs." — Anika [01:25]

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[03:02] Weekly Swaps & Fashion Recommendations

[03:18] Anika's Swap:

• Recommends @2becreated.uk, a U.K.-based Instagram for minimal, elevated outfit inspiration and styling sessions:
  "Visual mood boards are just such a vibe...I love looking at really neutral outfits." — Anika

[04:18] Joe's Swap:

• Melbourne’s “Racquet Club” clothing racks: a circular fashion initiative enabling people to sell (or buy) pre-loved clothes easily.
  "It's so simple...drop your clothes, and it sells. You don't have to be there. Not like going to a market." — Joe [05:34-06:37]
• Advice: Sell old, good-quality pieces, use earnings to refresh your wardrobe, benefits both sellers and buyers, supports sustainable fashion, and is cost-effective amidst the cost of living crisis.

[07:56] Joanna’s Swap:

• Recommends the "Fashion People" podcast by Lauren Sherman, especially the episode with Hunza G founder Georgiana Huddart.
  • Insights on rebranding, coping with dupe culture, historical context in fashion, and the journey from '80s prominence to modern success. "She shared a lot of really interesting insights as someone whose brand is copied a lot and how she manages that." — Joanna [08:45-09:52]
  • Also, Lauren Sherman’s “Lynching” newsletter. "Anyone in the fashion industry uses it as a reference check...she's so knowledgeable." — Anika [10:02]

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[11:01] Headline 1: Dion Lee Speaks Out After Brand Collapse

[11:01-16:47] The Story:

• Dion Lee's renowned label went into voluntary administration (May 2024), then liquidation, shocking the Australian and global industry.

• Owner Q Clothing Co’s investment rose from 51% to 70%; relationship soured over time.

• Dion Lee opens up in the Australian Financial Review—about business partnership mistakes, his lack of control, and the emotional toll: "If you're going to have your own business and make so many sacrifices, it has to fill you up. Has to be a reflection of you...I can't say I was always putting myself first over 15 years, and that takes its toll." — Dion Lee [Article quoted at 11:26]

• $36 million owed to creditors, prolonged uncertainty about Lee's control over his own name/IP, and “soul destroying” process.

• New opportunity: US retailer Revolve acquires the label, rehiring Lee and setting him up for a 2026 comeback, including both mass and bespoke “made to order” lines.

[13:34-16:51] Panel Insights:

• Dion Lee’s creativity, international reputation, and relationship challenges highlighted.
• Questions of fit: Was Q Clothing Co ever the right investor for a globally ambitious, aesthetic-driven designer?
• Further complications: Internal Q family lawsuits, boardroom drama—context of business instability.

Memorable Quotes:

• "The process...my name, my archive, my IP, all of these things were being monetized and sold off without me. It was soul destroying." — Dion Lee (quoted) [12:33]
• "To have to dismantle a team you built for 10 years...his heart was breaking." — Joanna [17:27]
• "He showed humility and respect, never shifted blame—even in crisis." — Anika [18:43]

[18:51-21:37] Looking Ahead: Revolve Partnership & Made to Order

• Panel expresses excitement and optimism for Dion Lee’s new collaboration with Revolve, which fits the brand's global ambitions.
• Speculation: Will a scaled-back, bespoke approach restore creativity? Can Lee’s signature DNA evolve for a new American and global clientele?
• Prediction: The “Phoenix” effect—rebirth and likely Coachella/influencer tie-ins. “I feel like the Revolve customer base is so in the zeitgeist. They’re the coolest girls...he’s got to start dressing people!” — Anika [21:52]

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[25:55] Headline 2: The "Cutting Room Floor" $55K Job Controversy

[25:55-33:20] The Facts:

• Rachel Omondi (host of “Cutting Room Floor”) posts a full-time New York-based job combining three roles (bookings, studio coordinator, PA) at $55K/year, no benefits, in-person only.
• Backlash—especially on TikTok—over poor pay, excessive workload; labelled “borderline exploitation.”
• Omondi doubles down on TikTok Live, then posts a mea culpa voice note on Patreon, halts hiring, consults HR to rewrite the job description. Over 800 applied.

[26:06-33:47] Panel Discussion:

• Panel debates the realities and ethics of fashion's entry-level jobs and global pay disparities:
  • NYC’s living wage threshold is ~$68K, $55K = “very low” income (The Cut).
  • In Australia, 55K USD is ~$84K AUD, which would be a "decent" entry-level salary, highlighting massive cost-of-living differences.
• Personal histories—everyone recalls underpaid, overworked fashion stints: "I work with NYC buyers who have full-time jobs and second/third hustles...cost of living is astronomical. The hustle is so real." — Anika [30:11]
  • The cycle of burnout and toxic “earn your stripes” culture considered.
• Sentiment varies by platform: TikTok users bash Omondi, Instagram users defend her, pointing out hypocrisy and systemic issues across fashion. "She shouldn’t be the face of a broader systemic issue...it’s not fair, especially for a Black female founder in fashion." — Joanna [29:02]

Notable Omondi Quote (originally in The Cut):

“It’s not lost on me that’s not a glamorous wage...I’m looking for someone who wants to come to NY and hustle in the early years...” [Paraphrased at 25:23]

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[37:22] Headline 3: The Beauty Side Effect Boom

[37:22-45:14] What is It?

• Inspired by Dazed article (Ellen Atlanta): the “appointment after the appointment.”
  • Cosmetic procedures breed new side effects (filler migration, harsh skin treatments, Botox “rebalancing”), requiring further (often costly) correction.
  • Example: Up to a third of some London clinics’ bookings are now corrections, not first-time treatments.
• “We’re now treating the treatment rather than enhancing the person—it’s the medical overprescribing of aesthetics.” — Dr. Stephen Harris (quoted) [37:22]

[38:43-45:38] Panel Experiences:

• First-hand: Joe got early lip fillers at 18 (in a clinical setting), had to get filler dissolved years later—side-effects not initially warned about.
• Anika reflects on friends’ “full cycles,” now dissolving fillers.
• Overarching sentiment: Procedures produce unpredictable, sometimes long-term effects. The beauty industry both creates and profits from these “side effect” treatments. Cultural “trend cycles” create huge swings (BBL in, BBL out, etc.). "I've seen BBLs, tiny hourglass bodies, frozen foreheads, now all those things are out. The list keeps going—the industry thrives on insecurity and the next thing." — Anika [44:35]
• The need for ethical practitioners who say “no” to over-treatment highlighted.

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[46:05] Headline 4: Brands Want Influencers to Have Full-Time Jobs (Not Just Be Full-Time Influencers)

[46:05-56:46] The Trend:

• Report from Outlander: Brands increasingly want to work with influencers who have “real” (full-time) jobs outside social media, not just career content creators.

  • Examples: "Cat from finance", "Bus Auntie" for Burberry—people defined by relatable, non-glamorous work.
  • The shift: Office workers posting real day-in-life vlogs gain a following, then, after quitting for full-time influencing (lounges, “pilates at midday”), their relatability and engagement drops, sometimes sparking backlash. "People want to see themselves in influencers. If they can’t, they disengage." — Joe [48:11]

• Michaela Naguara’s journey—Ulta employee to full-time influencer—becomes less relatable.
  “She was the blueprint!...Now a lot of people criticize her for not being relatable.” — Joanna [50:16]

• Joanna’s take: The supposed new “authenticity” is only a new packaging of the old Dove “real beauty” campaign playbook—using relatability as a marketable illusion: "At the end of the day, it was marketing to appear relatable...the illusion is what's appealing to advertisers." [52:56]

[54:03] When Influencers Return to Work

• Some creators actually go back to traditional jobs for balance, inspiration, and a sense of purpose: "I know someone who went from full time to full time creator, then back to part time work for more purpose and balance." — Joe [55:05]

[56:46] Closing Thoughts

• There’s no one blueprint: Brands, audiences, and influencers are all reconsidering what “influence” and “authenticity” actually mean.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “If you’re going to have your own business and make so many sacrifices, it has to fill you up ... I can’t say I was always putting myself first over 15 years, and that takes its toll.” — Dion Lee (quoted) [11:26]
• "I can't even remember what she looked like before dissolving the fillers...I'm like, who the fuck is that?” — Anika [40:03]
• "She shouldn’t be the face of a systemic issue—especially a Black female founder." — Joanna [29:02]
• "The industry thrives on our insecurities, on us always wanting the next thing." — Anika [44:35]
• "At the end of the day, it’s the illusion of being relatable—that’s what advertisers want." — Joanna [52:56]
• "I kind of forgot how to create content. I was working 8 hours per day; now I felt uninspired..." — Paraphrased by Joe about Jordie Zvi [55:05-55:56]

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Key Segment Timestamps

• 00:55 – Host/co-host intros, travel plans for Fashion Weeks
• 03:02 – “Swapping In” segment (fashion and recs)
• 11:01 – Dion Lee’s business collapse, brand rebirth
• 25:55 – The $55K 'Cutting Room Floor' job saga
• 37:22 – Beauty side effect boom and corrections market
• 46:05 – Authenticity and the “full-time job influencer” trend
• 56:46 – Wrap-up and closing comments

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, insider, and witty: Hosts share personal anecdotes and real experience (“I’ve had these jobs…”, “my friends…”, “in my group chat…”)
• Critical but empathetic: They challenge fashion’s toxic systems while recognizing personal trade-offs and privilege.
• Resourceful and practical: Swaps/offers, how-to’s, and career advice are embedded throughout.
• Authenticity-focused: Much of the debate returns to what is “real” and what is performative—whether in careers, beauty, or influencer culture.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode of Style-ish is essential listening for anyone curious about:

• The painful (and often hidden) costs behind fashion industry glamour
• What happens after a designer loses their own brand (and what rebirth looks like)
• How “authenticity” continues to be commodified—whether in who brands hire, or what influencers show us
• Why cosmetic “perfection” nearly always leads to new treatments
• Whether starting in fashion always means low pay (and whether that’s starting to change)
• The everyday hacks, resources, and recommendations you need in your fashion and beauty life

Whether you're in fashion, a content creator, obsessed with beauty, or just a fan of juicy industry tea—this is an episode to catch.

Transcript

[Joanna Fleming]

Foreign. This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Dan Murphy's Find out what's new now and next when it comes to trending drinks.

[Joe]

This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business and beauty. My name is Joanna Fleming. My co hosts today are Ana Kajoshi Smith and Rhiannon Joyce. Shameless Media's head of business development is back with us in Mads's seat today. I should have added co host of Stylish, given that you do our fortnightly episode as well. Re.

[Joanna Fleming]

I do, I do, I do.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Are we a quad now?

[Joe]

Yeah, I reckon we could say that, yeah. Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Quad sounds quite good.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Squad. It's kind of quad.

[Joanna Fleming]

Squad.

[Joe]

It's a little bit better than Throuple, I think. Yeah.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

But I really like the little thruffle. But I love this quad squad. Stylish.

[Joanna Fleming]

Quad squad.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Oh, my God, that's good.

[Joanna Fleming]

Sticks.

[Joe]

Any updates this Wednesday, girls? Anything to add before we jump into the episode?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

We're jet setting this week.

[Joe]

We are. Both of you? Yeah, both of you.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I know. Mrs. Worldwide. What's that song? Three or five.

[Joanna Fleming]

So you're off to New York?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I am this Friday. Fashion Week kicks off next week. So it's going to be a really fun, eventful week for me.

[Joanna Fleming]

I can't wait to see all the.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Fits naturally she's been planning. Don't you worry.

[Joanna Fleming]

I saw in your welcome to my wardrobe. You take Polaroids. I do your photos in your wardrobe. Do you do that when you're traveling as well? I do.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

And I literally prep all my outfits in prep of what the week ahead looks like. And then every morning. Because if you're jet lagged, it's like the best trick to just be like, okay, I need to have breakfast. Like I'm a breakfast girly. So I have to have my outfit planned and then it just makes me kind of have more time with my coffee and my eggs.

[Joe]

Benny.

[Joanna Fleming]

That's a nice little secret swap though.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

There you go. I'm a giver.

[Joanna Fleming]

You've been giving quite a few. I'm here to get over the past.

[Joe]

What else do you want to know and where are you going? To London.

[Joanna Fleming]

I am. I'm off to London with shameless takes. So there are a few of us in the office heading over. I feel very lucky. We're also going to Dublin.

[Joe]

Oh, fun.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah, I've actually been there.

[Joe]

It's fun.

[Joanna Fleming]

I've never been go to a pub, so we're actually going to the Guinness. I think it's like the Guinness Factory.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Oh, my goodness.

[Joanna Fleming]

As part of the experience. So famously, Shameless has, like, a huge percentage of Irish listeners. That's why we're going to Dublin.

[Joe]

Yeah. I love that.

[Joanna Fleming]

Honoring our.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Oh, my gosh. You might meet Gerard Butler.

[Joanna Fleming]

Is he Irish?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

No, but honestly, when I went to Dublin, I literally asked everyone, I was like, where's Gerard Butler? Aren't you married?

[Joe]

I don't want to burst your bubble, but Gerard Butler is Scottish. Well, can you both please make sure that you have your flow travel nasal spray, please?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I've got it.

[Joe]

You know that I don't stop talking about this.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

I did my chemist warehouse run today.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Okay.

[Joanna Fleming]

And I didn't pick it up.

[Joe]

Well, back you go.

[Joanna Fleming]

Off I go after the recording.

[Joe]

Okay.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

It works. I swear it works. And in Jojo we trust.

[Joe]

Yes. Mads went and got it before her trip, so it's a necessity. You have to have it.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay, I'll go to chemist warehouse.

[Joe]

And I'm not an ambassador, but I really should be. So many of those nasal sprays.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I love the plugs on here.

[Joe]

All right, well, today we are talking about why brands want influencers to have full time jobs. The beauty side effect. Boom. Dion Lee speaking up for the first time since losing his business. And welcome to my algorithm is back. But first, what are we swapping in this week? I don't think I need to say who's going first.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

No, honestly. Well, speaking of London, this is actually a UK based Instagram account and I love them. They're called to be created. So on Instagram, it's2becreated.uk and it is an outfit inspiration source. They do the coolest pairback minimal outfitting and I think visual mood boards are just such a vibe. I love looking at just really neutral outfits. Denim, they do everything really well. And I think with transitional wear now, I mean, it's the first day of spring today it's our Monday, but on Wednesday it'll be the third day of spring anyway. So I feel like it's just really good when you look at your wardrobe and you want to feel a little bit more reinvigorated. So I highly recommend them. Great paired back, minimal and effortless outfitting.

[Joe]

Gorgeous.

[Joanna Fleming]

Anyone you recommend? I'm following.

[Joe]

Yes.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

And they do actual styling sessions as well. So, yeah, you can actually book in for, like a styling session with the girls. They're incredible.

[Joe]

That's cool. If I wasn't friends with you, I'd definitely do that.

[Joanna Fleming]

But, yeah, you do. Jo, what's yours?

[Joe]

Mine is actually Kind of nice to our Melbourne based listeners. But there are other stores with the same concept all around Australia, probably in other countries as well. But it is called Racquet Club and it is based in melbourne. They have three different stores. So I've had two clothing racks with racket club over the last probably 12 to 18 months where I've had my clothes there. But I also get very tempted to have a look at what other people are hosting on their clothing racks as well. So the whole concept behind this store, essentially if you hate listing things online and you can't be bothered going to the post office, this is for you. Essentially what you do is you book in a clothing rack at the Racket Club, one of their stores in Melbourne, or, you know, if you can find a similar kind of concept elsewhere, and you print out the barcodes for all of your items. So you input everything into the, you know, back end of their website. You print out the barcodes, you label everything and then you just drop it in there and it sells. You don't have to be there. It's not like going to a market. It's not like using depop. It is so simple. You literally just go in there, drop your clothes, and then you can also sticky bake at what other people are selling as well. And someone asked me recently, like, I don't have a lot of money to spend on reinvigorating my whole wardrobe, but I'm sick of all of my stuff.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Joe]

And so my recommendation was, okay, we'll clear out the stuff that you're really sick of that you've worn time and time again, but that's still in pretty good quality. Sell it there and then reinvigorate your wardrobe with other people's. Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

I love this. While you're there, can I get into the weeds?

[Joe]

Yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

Do they take a fee?

[Joe]

Yes. So they take a commission. So you pay to book the rack and they take a. I think it might be 10% maybe.

[Joanna Fleming]

Oh, that's pretty good.

[Joe]

Yeah. It's not a lot. It's not a lot. Don't quote me on that. No, but it's not a lot. So you still do end up doing quite well. I think I maybe last time I did it maybe made like 900 and something dollars. Oh my. Yeah, it's absolutely worth it. It's so worth it.

[Joanna Fleming]

And is the payment process like direct to your bank account? Does it link straight away?

[Joe]

Yeah. And you can see what's sold as well. And you can also top up your rack. So if you get halfway through your booking and most of your stuff's gone, you can have another look in your wardrobe, print out more barcodes, take it in there and drop it off.

[Joanna Fleming]

Oh my God, I feel like I.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Need to do this same.

[Joe]

Ray. You definitely need to wait and.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

So anyone can do this.

[Joe]

Yeah, anyone can do it.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Okay.

[Joe]

So I would say if you've got good quality stuff, hasn't really been heavily worn, it's not things that you would want to dispose of or take to an op shop because it's still got a label on it or something. Yeah. It's things that you think you could make money off of. Then I would suggest it.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Love this. Okay. Because there's like swap and also goodbyes and they obviously do the similar kind of thing. But you drop off your stuff. I think it's got like a 30 day term and then whatever sells, they'll either. I know good buys will actually like pay you as you go, but then swap. They actually pay you when you drop things off, but then they take a bigger cut.

[Joanna Fleming]

Right. So you get that upfront payment.

[Joe]

Yeah, yeah. You just go and pick up whatever's left over. So if there are still things left over on your rack, you go and take what's left. I typically just go past my Saint Vinnies on the way home and anything that hasn't sold, I'll take there because it's still good quality stuff and can be certainly worn. So I would recommend.

[Joanna Fleming]

I like your build on it not just being for someone who wants to sell, but also someone who's looking to reinvigorate their wardrobe and also cost of living crisis. Absolutely. Such a more cost efficient way to do that.

[Joe]

100%. I just think it's the best way to do circular fashion. Like you're selling your stuff and then maybe what you make from that, if you haven't got a huge budget for reinvigorating your wardrobe, you just use what you made from selling your own clothes and put that back into your wardrobe.

[Joanna Fleming]

Brilliant.

[Joe]

Yeah. So that's mine. What's yours?

[Joanna Fleming]

I'm recommending a podcast. I don't know if I've actually recommended a podcast. I don't. I have in the weekly picks, so I am obsessed with the podcast Fashion People. It's hosted by Lauren Sherman, who is a renowned journalist in the us. She's very in the know in fashion and beauty. I feel like she always has the best scoops ever. But what I love about that is she always gets really good guests as a result of it. Her roster of historical guests are really impressive. But the one episode I actually want to recommend, she's interviewing Georgiana Hadat. I think that's how you pronounce it. But she was the founder of Hunza G. Oh, yeah. So did you know that Hunza G was an original brand in the 80s? Super popular, iconically. The dress that was worn in Pretty Woman.

[Joe]

No.

[Joanna Fleming]

You know the dress that Julia Roberts wears and it's got like the.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

The red and the blue.

[Joanna Fleming]

The red and the blue.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

I'm not doing a very good job at selling this to Joe. She's looking at me.

[Joe]

The before or after in Pretty Woman?

[Joanna Fleming]

The before.

[Joe]

Yes, yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

And she's got it with the boots, the knee high boots. And then she walks in. I'm pretty sure it's the one where she walks in, goes, big mistake. Huge. She's in that outfit.

[Joe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Anyway, I digress. But the point is, Honza J was like a huge brand in the 80s. It was actually invented by Peter Meadows. And then Georgiana took over the brand in 2014 and that's what basically supercharged the whole swimwear label of the brand. So, yeah, really cool. And there were so many interesting tidbits and insights into Hunter G that I had no idea about. And she was a really interesting guest. It was a bit slow at the start. It took her a while to warm up as a guest. She wasn't super confident and obviously she doesn't do a lot of podcasts, so I could tell it wasn't natural for her. But as the interview progressed, she became more confident and shared a lot. Really interesting insights. As someone who has a brand that is copied a lot and how she manages that really interesting perspective. And I think with the whole trend around dupe culture in all different categories, I was really interested in that story. So if you're someone who loves fashion, beauty, brand, you probably are because you're listening to Stylish.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Definitely recommend listening to this podcast. And just fashion people as a whole. It's a beauty.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

She's honestly so interesting because she's also got her newsletter.

[Joanna Fleming]

It's called Lynching.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah. And I think anyone in the fashion industry like, uses it as like such a reference check because she is so knowledgeable. She has got so many connections.

[Joanna Fleming]

She does. That's a lot of scoops as well.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

And always like, she's the first to know. She'll predict, you know, if there's ever a change of hands at a designer's house and it's like, who's going to be the new designer. She always knows. Yeah, yeah, she's always someone I like to check for my research notes.

[Joanna Fleming]

Honestly, she's such a good resource. And so I started listening to the podcast first. Then I became a subscriber to the newsletter. Yeah, it's addictive. They drop about three a week as well, so the frequency is pretty high. It's pretty expensive. I think it's about 18 USD. But considering this is my job, yeah, it's. I can justify.

[Joe]

We've got very different podcast tastes, but I might listen to that episode. But if anyone needs true Crime podcast recommendations, I'm your girl.

[Joanna Fleming]

I was about to say as well, one of the most recent episodes is with Daniel Frankel and I haven't listened to it yet, but that sounds like.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I might have listened to that on the airplane.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Nice.

[Joanna Fleming]

Cool. That's me done. All right.

[Joe]

Well, that takes us to our first headline. Dion Lee speaks out for the first time since losing his business. So Dion Lee is undoubtedly one of the most celebrated Australian designers and one of Australia's most successful fashion exports. So it sent shockwaves through the industry when in May of last year, his label went into voluntary administration after Q Clothing Co withdrew their investment. At the time we discussed that on this podcast. I can't believe that was May last year. I know, flown.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

That was like when we first started.

[Joe]

Which is why babies. That is such a long time ago. Then in August 2024, it collapsed into liquidation with debts of 36 million owed to creditors. Since that time, we haven't really heard from Dion Lee until last Friday when the Australian Financial Review published a feature where for the first time, Lee spoke on the record about the collapse of his business. The article details the breakdown of the business relationship with Q, who took a major stake 51 in the business in 2013, which later became a 70% stake. While it started as a mutually beneficial and positive relationship that allowed Lee to expand his label overseas, as Lee says in the article, it ultimately didn't end up being the right fit. He told the afr. When the public communication of your brand is not reflective of decision making, you've been involved in or stand behind, it's very difficult. I entered the relationship with Q when I was very young and inexperienced. If you're going to have your own business and make so many sacrifices, it has to work for you. It has to fill you up. It has to be a reflection of you. I can't say that I was always putting myself first over the past 15 years, and that takes its toll. I've learned These lessons very much the hard way. Lee also shared how it affected him when Rod and Lynette Levis, the husband and wife duo who founded an own Q Clothing co, put Dion Lee Australia into voluntary administration in 2024. It was a drawn out process that lasted for almost a year and there was no guarantee that Dion Lee himself would be able to stay at the helm of his label if a buyer was found. He says. The process of knowing that my name, my archive, my ip, all of these things were being monetized and sold off without me. It was soul destroying. It was a very real possibility that someone would purchase the brand who I'd never met, who I had no affiliation with whatsoever. There was no guarantee that a buyer would want me as creative director. Now that he's based in Paris, he told the AFR that regardless of what's happened, he still wants to evolve the brand. He's currently working on new designs from a small studio and he's been given a lifeline by US retailer Revolve, who bought the rights to the label in May, giving Dion Lee his name back. He will create a new collection for Revolve while also working on his own label, which will be a mix of made to measure pieces for private clients and Director Consumer Ready to Wear, with both debuting in 2026, which I think is very exciting.

[Joanna Fleming]

So exciting.

[Joe]

I think we were all a little bit shocked when the brand went into voluntary administration.

[Joanna Fleming]

I was devastated.

[Joe]

Yeah, it seemed like it was getting a lot of clout as well in the US because Taylor Swift was wearing the Court. Was it a black?

[Joanna Fleming]

It was literally weeks after Taylor Swift had been photographed at the Soup. I'm pretty sure she wore it to the Super Bowl.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

She did, yeah. Yeah, she did.

[Joanna Fleming]

There was a lot of noise around the brand in the us, Interestingly, in a local market. I remember when we were speaking about it, it did feel like there was maybe something going on. And I do think in the industry, I mean, Anika, you can speak to this better than anyone. She's probably new Murmurs with a Whispers.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I've actually gone through VA with an Australian brand and there's always signs and I think something that's really hard, like there's no denying that Dion Lee is a formidable designer. Like, he is so iconic. His signature aesthetic, I think as well is so recognisable. But something you kind of start to notice is the brand definitely, I will say, had a bigger footprint overseas than it did in Australia. Overseas as well. We see a lot of markdown culture and unfortunately it was One of those brands that was often caught in the markdown or promo cycles, those are sometimes clear signs as well. You've got too much inventory or people are canceling out of stock. There's so many different variables. So I wasn't that surprised when it was announced. I think especially because the fashion industry is so demanding, for brands to stay relevant is super hard, especially when there's a desire to deliver constant newness. You've got to do four collections per year. Those collections need to resonate two different hemispheres. And then on top of that, you need to show evolution and progression and make sure that your brand just resonates with different markets. And I think when you have such a clear identity like Dion Lee does, sometimes people, I guess, who have backed the brand, you know, 15 years ago to where we are now, your customer grows, she evolves. And sometimes it's just not where you want to be, you know, at that time. It's really hard to stay on the pulse in our industry, especially in a trend driven landscape.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, the partnership with Q always fascinated me because it didn't feel like a natural punishment, but it had been long standing. 11 years is a really long time. But to your point, Arnica, I do find it interesting that maybe at the start, and this is my assumption, at the start it was working and then as the brands evolved, it hasn't really sustained that working model. So the article touched on this, but it didn't go into detail. And what I really loved was that Dion Lee himself did not give a lot of commentary on this and he so easily could have come out swinging. But the family who own Q Clothing Co are actually being sued by their son who was involved in the business. And he was allegedly involved with Dion Lee. Quite hands on with Dion Lee as a brand. And recently in the trade press, he spoke to rag traders and gave some really interesting quotes saying despite his unwavering commitments and sacrifices, he was abruptly terminated from his role in May 2024 and completely removed from the business. Interestingly, he left the business in May, two weeks before Dion Lee was actually placed in voluntary admission. So this is all happening at the same time. And from what I read in the feature is he was heavily involved with Dion Lee, attending multiple board meetings and had really strong representation.

[Joe]

Right. For that may potentially be linked in some way.

[Joanna Fleming]

That's what was alluded to. He also said, after nearly three decades of leadership, hold no ownership stake in the company I helped build. This is a devastating betrayal of both professional and personal trust. So this scenario has actually gotten A little bit messier.

[Joe]

Yes.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

I did love the AFR profile and I loved how Dion Lee was quite respectful to not bring up a lot of that. There was no reference from his part. He hadn't actually spoken about his relationship with the Levises at all until this feature. And even then I felt how he spoke about them and how he spoke about himself and what he feared for his brand was really personal.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

And it was really obvious to me in that feature his heart was breaking for the fact that he had to dismantle this team that he had built for 10 years.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

You don't usually see that when people are in these scenarios. Usually they shy away from those conversations. But I really like that he approached it with honesty and with emotions as well. I felt really bad for him.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah. I have to agree with that. I think something that really stood out to me was like there was such an. Obviously a decline in the brand and you could feel that coming through. But the biggest call out was he just was so polite and genuine and like, he showed humility, but he also showed respect for, I guess, the people who helped get him to this point. Even though not being able to control the narrative around your namesake brand and not being able to control a lot of the communication around it going downhill. Like, he was so humble, I want to say, in his approach to the whole thing, which working for a brand that went through VA and seeing that side of the business and literally being there till the day the doors shut, it is awful. It is the most gut wrenching thing to witness and experience. I actually felt for him as well because I could imagine how hard that would be for him. Yet in this interview, he was so genuine, so polite and just kind. And at no point did he ever, ever shift the blame.

[Joanna Fleming]

Did it drive their name through the mug? Did it make noise?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Very respectful. What do you guys think about his new venture with. With Revolve?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I'm excited.

[Joe]

Same. I'm so pleased for him that he's got that opportunity because I think that's huge. To come out of a very dark time for the business and be able to kind of rise from the ashes.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Into a huge retailer like Revolve and have that opportunity. I'm sure it didn't just land in his lap. Probably there was a lot that went into it, but I'm really excited to see what comes out of that. Yeah.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Revolve are just such an authority in the contemporary space. They are dominating. They are so on the polls. They have insane resources. They will help find Those elements that make his brand super commercial, they'll help retain his DNA and they will just give him that platform. Maybe the collection we're called Phoenix but, you know, Rising from the Ashes, I think it will bring the brand back.

[Joanna Fleming]

A lot of the commentary in the AFR article as well was centered around that Q were not the right partner to take him overseas.

[Joe]

Yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

And that global expansion. I don't think it's a coincidence that Revolve is the brand that is replacing that given how much they're dominating in the us you would be hard pressed to find a brand that isn't killing it, that isn't on Revolve, especially Australian brands. At the moment I'm seeing Tony Bianco constantly in the bestsellers list. They're always being recommended, all the influencers wearing them. I would like to see Dion Lee follow a similar suit because I do think the customer is there. I'm ready. I want my corset back. I want my D on Le Corset. That is the ultimate workhorse in my wardrobe. I had to buy an extra one.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

When Will went under because I was like, I can't part ways. So I'm really excited to see where he goes and also how will this influence his creativity if he stays true to that D only aesthetic that we know and love or if it's, you know, maybe inspired. A new era of the brand would be really interesting.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Definitely. And I think moving from having to produce four constant collections per year going back to a partnership where it's very much focused on Revolve, the Revolve customer and rebuilding the brand, I actually feel like he will like maybe get that spark back. He'll actually feel so much more creative and just that respect as well for his brand and his DNA will come through on the new collection.

[Joanna Fleming]

Can I ask you a specific question, Anika?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Fleming]

What's your take on him doing the bespoke made to order element?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I'm intrigued to see how this is gonna play out because obviously Revolve actually do. They had a pop up and I think it's gonna become like a more permanent space in la. But to get that right, it's really hard and I think it's very customer centric as well. So unless it's a bespoke service and it's custom made to order, it might be maybe for celebrities, maybe for a few certain influencers or whatnot, or partners of Revolve. Every year Revolve do heaps of marketing collabs. Especially like Coachella is a Big one. So maybe there'll be something centric around those marketing events. But it will be interesting to see how it plays out because I think his design as well, he has got that commercial and mass appeal. And to roll it out to more bespoke services, it will be a bit more intricate, it might be more detailed. It might be a new era for him.

[Joanna Fleming]

Definitely piqued my interest. Interesting call out that it wasn't just the Revol partnership. It was that element of it as well. But the celebrity angle makes sense. Or. Yeah, I feel like we need a little predictions.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I think that he is going to.

[Joanna Fleming]

Sorry, I set you up. That's.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I predict. No, honestly, like, let's. Like, there's gonna be so many events coming up. I feel like in 2026, he'll make a comeback somehow. There's gotta be something Coachella coded. Like, I feel like Revolve's customer base is so in the zeit, guys. They are like the coolest girls, if anything. Like, we've seen Kendall Jenner do all of her kind of events in Kylie. Like, at Coachella. With Revolve, I feel like there'll be a total moment. He's gotta start dressing people.

[Joanna Fleming]

Seriously, his aesthetic suits that as well.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I want him to dress Dochi. Oh, make an outfit for Doji.

[Joanna Fleming]

I could see Dua Lipa wearing a lot of his stuff.

[Joe]

Yeah. I was gonna say I wouldn't be surprised if he works with one or two or, you know, a very small group of celebrities where he is creating a lot of stuff for them that is kind of custom. And then maybe releases those designs later on.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

With Revolve, imagine if a collection came out worth Taylor. Taylor Swift. Sorry, Taylor Calcane.

[Joanna Fleming]

Slight tangent. I don't think she's his usual.

[Joe]

She's not.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

But she's messy.

[Joe]

I would not position her as that.

[Joanna Fleming]

But maybe that's the way to go, though.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Maybe we need to change it up. It didn't work previously.

[Joanna Fleming]

All right, moving on to our next segment. We are doing something that the shameless listeners are probably really familiar with. It's called welcome to My Algorithm. Last time we did this was back in May, and Joe, you actually gave us a glimpse into all the hair growth content that was dominating your feed this time around. It's a bit of a change of pace. So for the last week, the cutting room floor 55k job debacle has been all over my feed. I'm pretty sure been all over yours as well. For a little context, the cutting room floor is a really successful fashion podcast. It's created and hosted by Rachel or Mondi. She's accrued a dedicated following on Patreon and for those of you who don't know, Patreon is a subscription based platform so you have to subscribe to a podcast. Generally you're paying a monthly subscription to access that content exclusively. In this case, she doesn't actually release any of her other podcast content on Spotify in real time. So if you want to access Amanda's podcast, it has to be through Patreon in real time. And then she drops the episodes once they've hit and she generally drops them when they're a bit older onto the other platform. So this is the only way you can actually access her podcast. She's accrued a dedicated following on Patreon and has had some pretty impressive guests like Law Roach, Cynthia Erivo and more recently Gwyneth Paltrow. Now for the 55k job saga last week Ratio posted a job listing for her company that was basically from what she had described as well, three roles in one. The listing said it combines the responsibilities of a bookings administrator and studio coordinator alongside working as a personal assistant to Ratio. But the kicker was that the job, which would be based in New York and be full time. So in that context it's 9:30 to 6:30pm with no option of working from home, was paying 55,000 pre tax and had no benefits. An article written by Dania Sawi for the Cut detailing the backlash says that according to the New York City Department of Housing Preservation and Development, a salary of that size would classify the earner as very low income. As you might expect, the backlash, particularly on TikTok, was immediate. Commenters particularly were criticizing the lack of benefits and how low the pay was considering the workload, with one commenting that 55k for an in person job in New York City is borderline exploitation at of the day end the this point as the Cut article details, rather than giving in to pressure from her ticked off audience, Amundi initially went live on Tik Tok to push back against the criticism and double down in that live, she said. It's not lost on me that that's not a glamorous wage. You can't be living lavishly, she said, adding that she's looking for the kind of person who wants to come to New York and hustle in the early years of their career eventually on Thursday. Last week she posted a five minute voice note to her paying Patreon subscribers where she said the company made a mess out of this unintentionally and that she's freezing the hiring process for the role despite having over 800 applicants for the position. She also said she'll be consulting HR and a recruitment firm to improve the job description and reassess the roles and responsibilities. There's a lot there.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yep.

[Joanna Fleming]

It has been evolving quite a bit since we first dropped this in the Slack channel. Jo, what did you think about her episode retracting it all?

[Joe]

I thought it was a pretty measured response in the Patreon. Well, people posted it on TikTok so I didn't have to subscribe to listen to it, but it was just a quick snippet basically clarifying. And she did own up. She was like I probably shouldn't have taken it to TikTok. I shouldn't have done the live. I probably shouldn't have really doubled down on what I had to say. So I did respect that she went to her audience, the people that pay to listen to that podcast, and clarified I guess what she intended from that. It always gonna go badly when you are posting a junior role on social media because the salaries are always going to appear lower. I think we've all had jobs like this where we have been paid probably not what we should have been paid to do the roles that we worked in and did the roles of maybe three or four people at once. I certainly have had one of those roles before, so it's not new. I don't think for an entry level position to require a lot of different things. But from that article in the cut it sounds like the livable wage or what they would consider a livable wage for a single person in New York is $68,000 USD and obviously that's well under that. However, it's 84,000 Australian dollars. That 55k translates into 84. So when you think about it like that it's like, oh, that would be a quite a decent entry level salary for someone that's starting their career in fashion, for example. But that's being Melbourne based, we don't have the same kind of of rent.

[Joanna Fleming]

As the overheads are arguably nowhere near as high. I'm pretty sure is the most expensive city in the world.

[Joe]

I think you're right. Yeah. And also we have free health care here. They weren't offering the benefits of health care and other things like that that you might need in the us so it's a tricky one. It really is. And also the comments on some of the posts were very much in her favor.

[Joanna Fleming]

When you say the Post. What post are you referring to?

[Joe]

The NY Times post? The article? Yeah. The art of the article.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yes.

[Joe]

Did you see those comments as well?

[Joanna Fleming]

I did. And it's interesting because when we first pop this in the Slack channel and we were talking about it, I felt like the sentiment on TikTok was really anti Amandi.

[Joe]

Yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

It was very much centered around how difficult it is to live in New York and how much the fashion industry as a whole has a problem around these entry level roles and people being expected to work these jobs for not a lot of money.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

And a lot of people were criticizing Amanda for contributing to that narrative. Then towards the latter end of the conversation, when the piece actually ran, the sentiment was very different. On the Instagram.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Post. It felt like a lot of people were coming to Armandi's defense, and I tend to agree that she shouldn't be the face of a broader systemic issue in the fashion industry, which is organizations not paying people a livable wage at an entry level job and expecting them to just accept that because that's what the experience is in fashion and has been for a really long time. I don't think it was fair for Amandi, as a black female founder in fashion, to be the face of that.

[Joe]

Yeah. With a small business, she only has four employees. It's a small business. But also, let's not assume that they didn't do their research and see what other jobs were in market at the same time and what those salaries were. Well, they're not stupid.

[Joanna Fleming]

Also, hold a mirror up. And a lot of people were calling this out in the comments. Exactly. The company that obviously owns the cut as well. It's like, how much are you paying your team? And I don't know, but I think there were a lot of people in the comments saying it's a bit rich coming from these large organizations.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Speaking firsthand, as someone who's in the fashion industry and has a few contacts in New York, what's your take on it from a fashion perspective?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Honestly, fashion is just such a glorified industry. It is an industry often where experience is everything. And I don't agree with the salary for the position, mainly because it was three positions in one. It could have been fair had it had been like, okay, one of those positions. The requirements of this role were high. The salary did not reflect those requirements. It's just really hard because the cost of living in New York is astronomical. It's high. But also, in the defense of the article, I know so many girls working in fashion in New York who have multiple jobs.

[Joe]

Yes.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

The hustle is so real, you guys. I work with some leading retailers and the buyers have full time jobs day to day after hours. They work at Pilates studios or they have a job on the weekends. The cost of living is astronomical. But it's not unusual to have more than one job in New York.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

And I think in an industry as well, where people are so driven by experience, they want to soak it up. They want to actually try all different elements of the industry, whether that's in media, fashion, sales, pr, whatever, to get a foot in the door and seeing 800 applicants just shows that this is a role that's in high demand. It's a reality. It's going to be something people want. The unfortunate reality, which kind of made me think back to my own personal journey. Does this foster burnout? Does this foster a culture where the fashion industry does honestly get a bad rap sometimes? Because you don't often get remunerated fairly, especially when you're starting out, you are forced to go above and beyond. And when I look back at my own journey, I was on minimum wage for, I reckon, maybe the first three to four years of my career. I hustled, I interned, I soaked up everything possible, I studied full time and I had to earn my stripes before I could actually get to a position where I didn't have to work a couple more jobs. So I can resonate because I've been there. And maybe that's where my bias comes in. I'm like, no, they need to be paid more. But it is the nature sometimes of the game in our industry, which I think is a bit shit.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Joe]

There were a lot of commenters in that thread as well that were like, I did work for free. I was an intern and I just, I worked on the side to get my foot in the door with fashion. Like, as if you can complain about a 55k salary. There was a lot of that as well.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. It seemed really divided. It really did for me. Depend on what platform you were on in terms of where the sentiment sat. I actually listened to the Patreon episode literally when it came out, because we came out of our stylish meeting and it dropped and I was like, oh, here I am. Yeah, I agree with you, Joe. Coming back to how she handled the situation, I do think Amandi took great accountability and responsibility for where she fell down. And a lot of the onus was on how she had calmed down the position and how she had doubled down in that initial video. She Then went on to say that she was following the proper process, taking the job down, which I think was the right thing to do. Regrouping with a HR consultant and a recruiter to better gauge what is the landscape and how should she be approaching this role. I also think TikTok is just not the place for recruitment because what happened, and Amandi touched on this as well in her episode is she wasn't speaking to her consumer, she wasn't speaking to her listener. She was speaking to a worldwide audience who then were weighing in on the salary and all these details of it, which there was rightfully a conversation about that. But I think it just hit the wrong audience. And for someone who has a Patreon, it was smart to me that she went back to the Patreon where her community are and met them where they were for when she was doing the apology and the explainer. Because for me that is a controlled environment where you know that the people that are are buying into this, your content, have been here for a while and actually putting their money up for you. They're going to have a little bit more benefit of the doubt than the average Tick Tock viewer.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

So I can see how she ended up there. I just wish she did that from the start.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Because I would say that if someone's willing to pay, I can't even remember how much her monthly fee is, but I do pay it is consuming their content is also probably the person you do want working for your company because they understand in and out who you are are on a surface level or parasocial level. But I'm surprised she didn't go to her Patreon to do that and Instead went to TikTok. But you live and you learn.

[Joe]

You. Do you want doing that again?

[Joanna Fleming]

No.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Hindsight's a beautiful thing.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Something I did find interesting about this though was Rachel actually is considered quite a fashion truth teller within the industry. And I think people often look to her platform because she is known for uncovering messes. So something that I found actually really interesting in 2024, Marie Clay interviewed her and reported on the cutting room floor. Omondi dismantles the outside illusion that fashion is glamorous and glossy. Transparency is not always sexy. She says in some ways the industry is built on dreams to the detriment of people working there. To those dreams, you're tasked with upholding that image, even if you're struggling. Her program prides itself on presenting the industry for what it really is. Messy, complicated and a lot of work And I mean this quote, yes, it's from 2024, but in a year's time, I'm like, you're kind of contributing towards that mess. Like you're not cleaning up here. And I think going back to your point, Rae, it does, it's like, no, she shouldn't be the face of this issue because it is a systemic issue, but it's kind of contradictory at the same time.

[Joe]

Yeah, yeah, interesting take.

[Joanna Fleming]

I think she's owning the fact that she's messy though, and maybe this is because I consume a lot of her content. So I am coming at this from a place of bias and I have to acknowledge that I think her tone of voice and how she shows up behind the mark is really consistent. And that transparency piece is always there. Even in the way she interviews people. She always gets really raw, interesting sound bites from whoever her guests are that you don't hear on other podcasts because she's not afraid to ask them hard hitting questions. When she interviewed Steve Madden, she point blank was like, do you copy other brands?

[Joe]

And it's like, who is saying that.

[Joanna Fleming]

To the person that they're respect People know that they're showing up on her podcast, that that's the sort of conversation they should be expecting. So naturally I think she attracted. Attracts people who are willing to, you know, push that transparency boundary but also have a gritty conversation. I would say she's gritty now. I don't think that necessarily translates really well in this context when you're talking about hiring for a position. And also you're contributing to that negativity in the industry and the sentiment around it being a systemic problem. Like you're absolutely contributing to that. But in terms of how she shows up, it didn't feel that different to how I would expect her to. Being someone who consumes a lot of her content.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah, right.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Anyway, bringing us into your algorithm, that was. I liked that.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I know, it's an interesting place to be.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I don't think it's going to stop here as well. I think there's more to come. But next we're going to discuss the beauty side effect. Boom. This is very Joe Coded. But that will be right after a word from today's sponsor. There's something about spring that makes me want to play host. Not full on dinner party mode, just something relaxed, easy and fun. When my friends are just. I don't have much else planned for the weekend. If you also like the sound of this, I'm here to serve. Start by thinking about what you want to eat and drink at this time of year, I'm definitely drawn to a citrus number with some fruit and cheeses on the side. And for my friends who prefer cocktails, I always pick up a couple of extra pre mixes to put on ice. Dan Murphy's is the place to stock up. You can find everything from niche little gems to the drinks everyone is trying. Like the new hard rated orange that's tough. Timed its arrival perfectly for spring. Whether you're planning a long lunch, a backyard spritz session, or just want to try something new for the season, Dan's always has the next big thing in drinks drop in store or download the Dan Murphy's app to get inspired and remember to choose to drink wise. A huge thank you to Dan Murphy's for making this episode of Stylish Possible.

[Joe]

All right, so what is the Beauty side effect Boom? A recent Dazed article written by Ellen Atlanta explored something called the beauty side effect Boom and ever growing part of the cosmetic industry that's dedicated to correcting the impact of other treatments. Alan writes that the most profitable trend in beauty right now isn't a new lip or laser, it's the appointment after the appointment. This is the side effect beauty boom. The aftercare aisle has eaten the main event and the repair plan often costs more in money, time and headspace than the original enhancement. We're no longer just buying beauty, we're buying the tools to survive it. The article details a variety of common cosmetic procedures that end up creating a side effect that requires more work to fix. Think filler migration, the rise of skin barrier repair products because more people than ever are using harsh lasers and skincare actives or botox causing other muscles elsewhere in the face to over recruit to make up for the paralysed area leading to more lines to fix. Speaking today's London based esthetician Dr. Stephen Harris said a growing portion of my clinical work now involves undoing the damage caused by prior aesthetic treatments performed elsewhere. Around a third of my clinic slots are dedicated to corrections rather than first time treatments. We're now treating the treatment rather than enhancing the person is the aesthetic version of medical over prescribing and it's accelerating. Have you guys seen this in your own lives yet?

[Joanna Fleming]

Not yet because I've only had Botox. I started getting Botox at the age of 28. I was also the last one in my friendship group to get it. A lot of my friends were getting it in their mid-20s around 2425. So no, because I haven't really had Any posts? Procedure tweakments needed. So no. But I can see it as a trend overall, particularly on social media and TikTok. I'm seeing a lot of people. It starts here and then ends up over there.

[Joe]

Yeah. Yes.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I have so many girlfriends who are getting treatments. Like one of my girlfriends, I reckon when we were like in our early 20s, really got into Botox and fillers and I've just kind of followed the journey with her and she has now completely dissolved her faith face and it's been. I actually forgot what she really looked like. Like, I don't know if I could say that she looks great, by the way, but watching the treatments and just the amount of work that has gone into undoing all of these beauty cycles, because it's been very trend driven. Like there was a time, I guess, where she wanted to have bigger cheeks and lips and so she really went all out in the filler department and now she's reversing it all. So seeing everything kind of like come back to where it originally was. It's been really interesting. Like her passport from 10 years ago and her class. We laugh in our group chat because we're like, who the fuck is that?

[Joanna Fleming]

That's so good.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

But that's my experience.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Joe]

No, it's very true though, because people do kind of get blind to their own face because you're looking at your face every single day. And not that I see this in my particular clients because I don't administer those kinds of treatments, but even just with them observing their results, I always say, take progress photos of your skin. Trust me, you will come back and say to me, haven't noticed a difference. And then we look at your photos side by side and you'll be like, oh my gosh. But what I would say with this particular trend, like, there's so many avenues here that we could explore because in this article they talk about the effects of GLP1 drugs that they talk about a little bit in this article, like our Ozempics and things like that and how that impacts the face with considerable weight loss. And then we've got surgical procedures, we've got injectables, we've got more invasive skin treatments. There are so many different things that we could potentially discuss here. I worked in a cosmetic clinic when I was 18 years old and I worked with plastic surgeons up until I was. I was probably like 22, 23, maybe 23. And when I started working there, it was so normal for everyone to just get things done at work because you work there. So it's completely normal. And so I would have lip filler done at 18. And this was before there was a laser clinic on every corner. This was unheard of. My friends thought I was insane, but it was not normal to me because I worked with all these older girls as well that were maybe in their 30s and I was by far the youngest person desensitized. Yeah. And at that time we didn't have any young girls coming in to have these kinds of treatments. It was all older women having Botox and fillers. You would need to be at least 40s or 50s to be considering those kinds of treatments. And now it's very common to have 20 year olds walking in wanting preventative Botox.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

I tried to find data to support this sentiment. I couldn't find anything in a local context, but I would say just general sentiment. In my observation from people I follow on social media who are in their early 20s getting it. My own friendship group getting it at the ages of like 24, 25, even myself getting it at 28. I thought I was late.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

What?

[Joe]

Yeah, like, yeah, it's getting younger and younger.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

It really is.

[Joe]

But I also don't think this is a phenomenon because every procedure, surgical, non, invasive, injectable, whatever it is, comes with potential side effects or adverse reactions. Why are we suddenly surprised that there are these outcomes that we weren't anticipating? That's very normal with anything. Anything could have a side effect. But as I was saying before, I used to get lip filler when I was like 18. I hadn't had it for like six, seven years. I recently had it dissolved from above my actual lip in my upper lip because it was making my blue. Yeah, it had migrated up there and so I had it dissolved and I did notice, notice them kind of shrivel down a little bit more. But also the discoloration went away.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Wow.

[Joe]

And it had been sitting in there for over six years, but when I was having it first done, oh, no, this is gone within a year. The body metabolizes it. It doesn't hang around. We don't know these things. Sometimes it's a very fast moving industry and it kind of takes a little while to unveil the things that you might find out down the track are negative side effects. It's not always instantly after the, the treatment or the tweakment, as they're saying in this article. You know, we see kind of anecdotal stuff around RF devices causing fat loss in the face. And that's starting to come out a little bit more because they're getting more popular and you don't discover these things until they become really popular and more and more people are having them and experiencing side effects and then you hear about them.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah, because we touched on it a while ago when we were talking about Ozempic. Right. And how it often like makes your face look a bit more gaunt. And so now people are going through different procedures to try and like rebuild their faces again. Like you're never gon know. And I think in the beauty cycle as well, I feel like at 34 years old I have seen bbls, I have seen so many different things, like the list goes on. Frozen foreheads, tiny hourglass figures, like painted on abs that we have seen everything be so in vogue and now it's like BBRs are so out. Do you know what I mean? Like it's like it's just this trend cycle that we're kind of stuck in. And I feel like the beauty industry as a whole sometimes it does thrive on those insecurities. And I think once you start having procedures done it must be so hard to stop because there's always a treatment that can be made or even. I haven't actually started Botox yet but I definitely will be. And I think when I go though I'll be like the best client because I'll be like what else should I do? Should I fix this area? What do we do about that?

[Joe]

You're a marketer's dream. I think it does come down to the provider because if you have a provider that really believes in their work, especially when it comes to injectables and surgical procedures, they're not going to treat you if they think you're going to look weird afterwards or they think that you are going to have, have negative side effects. And I've seen providers on TikTok and things like that because in Australia we can't really show that stuff on social media but overseas they can. You see these doctors doing a lot of dissolving and then they're refilling in certain spots just so that they can make it appear a little bit more natural. So there's a lot of things that come into this so called phenomenon of tweakments and the treatment after the tweakment. But I think it's very layered.

[Joanna Fleming]

I would say a good practitioner as well. Well, whether that be a clinical nurse or a doctor who's treating you is sending you away. Yes. If you're trying to ask for more.

[Joe]

Things, they need to be able to.

[Joanna Fleming]

Say no because it is a slippery slope. Once you start, it's like, what else can I do? And all of those things. Someone who has integrity in their job and takes their responsibility quite seriously I would say should be saying no to you.

[Joe]

Yes. And also I think the client or patient has more respect for you as well.

[Joanna Fleming]

I agree.

[Joe]

Clients always will be like to me, oh, do I need this thing? Like, no, not you. Don't. Don't spend money on it. Let's spend money here and then we'll worry about that later.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

All I can think about right now is that TV show in the US botched and like how they make fortunes on this.

[Joe]

Yes. Well, yeah. I mean more doctors, as they said in this article, more doctors and injectors or providers are making money off corrections.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Which is scary.

[Joanna Fleming]

It is scary. Spring means we can finally come out of hibernation, shed our layers and plan lots of weekends and and ketchups. Whether you're in the mood for a crisp wine, a craft beer or a bougie canned cocktail, Dan Murphy's is your go to for what's new and what's trending in drinks. Download the Dan Murphy's app for Inspo or Head in Store and remember to choose to drink wise. Thank you so much to Dan Murphy's for making this episode of Stylish Possible. All right, our final headline for today's episode Brands Want Influencers to have Full Time jobs. So a bit of background on this story. Outlander magazine recently shared a post on Instagram about brands wanting the influencers they work with to have full time jobs, which actually got us thinking. We've had a few conversations about this off mic, but specifically about the state of influencing right now. In it they wrote, brands are looking for influences with either full time careers or creators who just see influencing as a side hustle rather than their full time career. And why is this? Authenticity, of course, as it always is within the fashion industry right now. Take Cat from finance for example. Her appeal is the fact that she's a working woman in finance and brands can align their pieces with that type of woman. Then we have Bus Auntie, a woman so authentically passionate about London buses being used by Burberry. It just makes complete sense. You might have seen this playing out online lately too, particularly on TikTok. Someone working an office job starts making content about their day to day life and accrues a sizing following for it. But once they get big enough and the paid brand deals start rolling in, they ditch their nine to five and their page changes almost overnight into full time influencer style content. Often creators who do this face a bit of backlash. People started following them because of their relatability and authenticity. And now their content consists of marches and pilates at midday and glitzy brand launches. Brands have gotten onto this and realizing the traditional style of influencer isn't resonating the way it used to, they've started working with people who have full time jobs instead. What do you guys think? Do you think influencers who have more regular full time jobs, do you find them more relatable or do you enjoy watching their content more?

[Joe]

I don't necessarily lean one way or the other. However, what I will say is that I have noticed that brands definitely have more interest in that type of influencer. And I think it really comes down to how they want to engage their audience and their community. Who do they want to target? Because people, when they consume content, they want to see themselves in that person and that's where they create this parasocial relationship. And they really have like a fondness for that person. They want to know what they're doing and they want support them. When they can no longer recognize themselves in that person or admire them for what they're doing, it kind of means that they get disengaged. And I think they check out a little bit from that influencer. And I've seen this kind of happen time and time again. But complete tangent. Did you guys see that girl in the US who worked for Mac and she started vlogging her day and then she got fired? No, it was all over my feed because people were doing parodies of it on TikTok because she started vlogging her day but she worked at the airport and so she was like going through the TSA getting like the cash out of the cash register. She was putting people's transactions through. She was showing all of this like really highly confidential. And then she showed up being like, I've been fired from my job. People like, what did you think was going to happen?

[Joanna Fleming]

No, I need to look that up. That is so funny.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Oh my God, that's actually hilarious.

[Joe]

She was trying to be a full time girly on TikTok and it didn't go down very well, unfortunately for her.

[Joanna Fleming]

So the first influencer I actually thought about is that really big TikToker in the US Michaela Naguara.

[Joe]

On.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, she originally worked at Ulta and I remember when she blew up and launched her own skincare brand which we actually spoke about on Stylish. When it launched, she made a nod to the fact that they were also launching an Ulta and that was like a nod to her original, original job.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

But I also feel like since she started really blowing up on social media, the sentiment did shift and she became less and less relatable.

[Joe]

We see this all the time though, the comment sections. As soon as people like, I'm leaving my full time job, there's always someone in the. The comments. It's like, oh, shame, that's why I liked you. Yes, Literally. But you see that all the time.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, you're right.

[Joe]

Interesting.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

That's incredible. So that started from the bottom, now we hear.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. I feel like she was the blueprint. When we were thinking about this feature, my mind immediately went to Michaela because that was her OG route to the big influencer stardom. And a lot of people criticize her now for not being relatable.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Right.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. Which does feel like generally the sentiment is you go from being relatable, as you said, to. To not, and you lose that connection piece with someone.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Annika, do you prefer to follow people who work full time or are you like Jo and you're indifferent?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I feel like my content consumption needs, I'll say, have definitely evolved and progressed. And actually when we were talking about this off mic, re something we both find interesting about all of us is the fact that we have full time roles and that we actually have areas of expertise. And I don't ever want to say that our jobs define us because I think, I think we have so much more to offer than that. But we definitely, I think, have an inherent value add by having our roles and our areas of expertise. I now am gravitating towards more relatable content for sure. And probably, yeah, a lot of career driven people as well.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. I'm trying to work out. I think I'm split down the middle. I still follow a lot of traditional influencers and I still enjoy their content. Content. In saying that, talking about it in the context of brands working with them, I would say that I'm more influenced by people who are still working full time and the brand partnerships that they have because of that contextual alignment compared to a traditional influencer. To your point, Arnica, there is that element of like, I'm paid partnership, paid partnership. Like I'm constantly being sold something.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

I think it comes down to, for me, the content in between is what I'm actually here for. So I can accept that every now and then there's a paid partnership that makes Maybe I'm not as interested in, but all the other content is keeping me here.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

So when I was researching for this episode, what I was thinking was this didn't feel like an entirely new concept to me. I do feel like this is just marketing repackaged in the format of a different environment. So what I mean by that is I kept thinking about the old school. I don't know if you guys remember these, the old school Dove ads on tv. And remember, Dove's whole positioning was coming from an angle of relatability. So they always showed women, very diverse women, all different body types. And that was very much the selling point for them was that they were a brand that catered to all types of women and really abandoned this idea of what the traditional stereotype of beauty was.

[Joe]

Yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

Now, those ads at the time garnered a lot of attention and were praised. Now, with the gift of hindsight, there's a lot more commentary and a few think pieces I've read around. At the end of the day, it was still a marketing tactic to try and appear or create the illusion of being relatable.

[Joe]

Yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

And why I wanted to bring this up was in the context of this conversation and this article. What I found really interesting was that that's still what we're doing.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

It's not that the influencers who work full time are more relatable. It's the illusion that they are more relatable. And that's what is appealing to the advertisers. And that's what they're trying to jump on. They're trying to use that creator in a way where it's like, oh, our brand's going to appear more relatable because we're working with someone, someone who is giving the illusion of being more authentic or they've got more depth because they're working full time. And that adds a layer of authenticity.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Compared to working with someone who is a full time influencer and perhaps doesn't convey that type of message.

[Joe]

Yeah, very true. Okay, good.

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

Take, hot take.

[Joanna Fleming]

When I look at an influencer, I'm like, okay, let's say you did start here and now you're working full time or you've got a full time job and then you go out on your own own. Where I stay with them is when they start their own business and when they're offering something of value beyond the brand partnership or where I feel like that brand is something I'm invested in because I'm invested in that person.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

That's where I feel like they keep me.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Do you know what I'm saying?

[Anika Kajoshi Smith]

I like that evolution. And I think as well, it's like there's also still that authenticity in that because they started somewhere in a really authentic place and now they've evolved into a brand that we already connect with. Like that makes sense to.

[Joe]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think influencers these days are considered, you know, if you're able to leave your full time job, that's like the pinnacle. And like you just get to lounge around all day and open free shit and unbox it and post it to your Instagram stories. But I actually do know someone who went from full time to full time creator, then back to past work. Yes. So Jordi Zvi is based in Melbourne. I used to work with her at Adore Beauty. She was working in a marketing role there. There. Then she obviously was creating content that whole time. She's an amazing fashion creator. She has amazing outfits. You should follow her if you don't already. But she left her full time role to become a full time creator and she actually was completely kind of uninspired really when she became a full time creator because she was like, I kind of forgot how to create content. And like, I was working in a job that required eight hours of brain power. And then I went to a job that I could tick off in an hour a day. And then I was just sitting around kind of waiting for the next thing to pop up. Pop up. Seeing all the things I wasn't invited to or not included in and that just made me feel like I wasn't good enough to be there. And so then she went into a part time role. So she now works for a fashion brand creating content two and a half days a week. And then she does content on the side still. So she's kind of got that balance of. She said it gave her more purpose having a role that she had to go to, you know, and be in an office with other people and then be creating content as the fun thing she gets to, to do on the side for herself. But focusing on something other than herself throughout the week was important for her own balance. And I think it kind of might be a bit challenging for people to go from a full time role where you're in an office with people every day and you're using your brain in a very different way to then having to be creative every single day of your life and think of new concepts and new fun things to do and new ways to engage your audience. I get very fatigued by content creation. I Don't think I could ever do a full time. And I actually do respect creators that can do it full time and continually churn out really cool content because I'm like, I could never.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, it actually does take a lot.

[Joe]

Of brain power and creativity. But there are people that have left their full time role to do that and gone. Actually, this isn't for me.

[Joanna Fleming]

I'd be curious to know if she had more brand deals when she worked full time than what she did.

[Joe]

I didn't ask that question.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, that's the piece that is interesting to me. Like, does it actually impact the value you of your output? I would say there are definitely creators that transcend above that and then again go on to start their own brand. So instead of promoting other brands, they promote themselves and then continue to make, you know, revenue from that.

[Joe]

Yeah, there's a few ways to do it, I guess. Yeah, there's no strict blueprint, but I think we've seen a lot of massive creators end up going into creating their own very successful brands. Thank you so much for joining us. And of course, thanks very much to you, Annika Joshu Smith, and you, Rhiannon Joyce, for being here today. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ish@sheless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at Stylish Pod. And we can't forget to thank our audio engineer, Liam Clayton and the Shameless Media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. We'll be right back with you next Wednesday.

[Joanna Fleming]

See you then.

[Joe]

Bye, guys.

[Joanna Fleming]

This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land.

[Joe]

Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.

[Ruby]

Hello, it's Ruby here, the host of Inherited, and I'm popping up to tell you about my conversation with award winning writer Lech Blaine. I spoke to Le about his idiosyncratic upbringing and the Christian fanatics who tried to kidnap his foster siblings. He has written about it so, so beautifully in his latest book, Australian Gospel. But here is a sneak peek from our conversation.

[Lech Blaine]

Yeah, I just remember visceral feeling fear and the sort of fear where you kind of. Even when I was older, even when the Shelleys were in different countries or I was still waiting for them to show up all the time. When I started to look into their backgrounds, I realized, wow, like, they're fascinating. Like, not just in terms of who they became, but who they were before that. And so I just really wanted to know how they changed. Like, how does that happen? Like I was just on a human level. I was, like, just fascinated. How did those two people become these two people? And that was really kind of the start of me looking at this story as a potential book.

[Ruby]

And before you go, you'll also want to hear my chat with Home and Away star Tessa James. Here she speaks about the moment she was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma at 23.

[Tessa James]

It was traumatic.

[Joe]

Yeah, it was.

[Tessa James]

It was a lot. I mean, in the beginning, it's kind of like a lot around it. You know, everyone's like, like, I'm so sorry. Are you okay? And all of that kind of stuff. But as it goes on, it went on for six months. Like, that became my life, my new normal. And, you know, as you're doing treatment, you become less and less of a person, basically. So not that it has any similarity to acting, but it was a similar thing that I would kind of say to myself, like, before I go into an audition, like, yes, you can do this. You know, And I would go in and I would read, really get the courage to go into that room. And I would do that every time that I would go into. Into get treatment, because, you know, the first, second time you go, and you don't really know what's happening, but third, fourth, like, you know what you're going into. And so that was. That was really difficult. I think it took me a really long time to get my sense of self back, and it. And it wasn't even the same sense of self. I wasn't. I was a different person. I was a new. A new me. And I think that that took a bit of time to get used to as well.

[Ruby]

You can listen to both of these conversations in full. Just search Inherited on your favorite podcast app. And we're on Instagram and TikTok as well at Inherited the Pod. And we'll be back with another episode next Tuesday. So we'll see you.