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- [00:00]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Foreign.
- [00:08]
Anika Joshi Smith
This episode of Stylish is brought to you by bed. The cult favorite shoes redefining travel footwear.
- [00:18]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business, and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe. My co hosts today are Anika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming. This is our first episode back from the break.
- [00:31]
Joanna Fleming
Hel.
- [00:32]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I've missed you guys.
- [00:33]
Joanna Fleming
Missed you.
- [00:34]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
As evidenced by how many times we.
- [00:36]
Joanna Fleming
All spoke while the break and the way that we came in, going to see each other.
- [00:41]
Unnamed Speaker
We were actually giddy little school girls. That's very cute.
- [00:44]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah. It felt like too long to be a part.
- [00:47]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yep. I would wholeheartedly agree with that. So no more breaks next time.
- [00:52]
Joanna Fleming
And also thank you to everybody who sent lovely messages in to us personally and also to the stylish pod Instagram. On our last episode before we went on our break, we spoke about loneliness in that episode, which was a little bit vulnerable for us. I guess it was a bit of a different vibe and we got so much lovely feedback about that episode. So thank you if you took the time out of your day to let us know what you thought of the episode. It's always really helpful when we're, you know, curating with our production team what is going to be in the episodes. And obviously you want a lot more of that stuff, so we're going to make that happen.
- [01:25]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah. Means we've got to put the vulnerability cloak on a little more, which makes me sweat just a little bit if.
- [01:31]
Joanna Fleming
I'm being really sweating thinking about it.
- [01:33]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
And it's not because the studio is so warm.
- [01:37]
Joanna Fleming
All right, well, today we have got a very beauty heavy episode, but a lot of beauty developments did happen while we're on break, so we don't really have a choice but to cover them because that's what's going on. So we're going to chat about the Ultraviolet and Choice sunscreen saga, obviously the new technology that can determine your skin's biological age at makeup counters. And later, we're gonna be unpacking what went wrong with the costuming for Ryan Murphy's latest TV show. Hint. It involves one of the most enduring style icons of the 90s. But first, what are we swapping in this week?
- [02:07]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I mean, talk about two weeks to be out of the studio. I honestly was like, of all of the news that could have erupted in the time that we were off, I was like, for God's sake, really? So first up, I mean, in case you were living under a Roc rhode sold to elf cosmetics for 1 billion USD.
- [02:27]
Unnamed Speaker
Huge.
- [02:28]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
So a lot of people may have seen Hailey Bieber is now a billionaire. That is factually incorrect. The deal was a billion dollar deal. USD 600 million of that was cash. 200 million of that was in ELF shares to Hayley and Lauren Ratner who is her co founder. And then 200 was a three year buyout. But I cannot emphasize enough how big of a deal this is given that this brand has been in market for three years, worked on for two before that. So we're talking a five year old brand for a billion dollars.
- [02:57]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [02:58]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Hailey Baba snaps for you. Honestly, Epic. We had Medicaid sold to L' Oreal for 1.6 billion AUD. And that was the largest strategic acquisition post AESOP back in August 2023. I'm like what a week of acquisitions.
- [03:16]
Joanna Fleming
That's a major one as well. I know that a lot of people already know Rhode, but maybe not that many people know Medicaid. Cosmeceutical brand that comes out of the UK and they do some fantastic products. I have worked with Medicaid for a long time.
- [03:28]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah.
- [03:28]
Joanna Fleming
And I love their brand and the innovation that goes into what they do. And I'm really excited about the fact that l' Oreal are now going to be working with them because obviously l' Oreal put a lot of money into innovation too. So I think it's only going to get better for them.
- [03:42]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah. It was rumored last year that their growth was 50% year on year as well. So wouldn't surprise me. L' Oreal is obviously seen the potential in this.
- [03:50]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [03:50]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
But I'm also equally as excited to see what road do with elf.
- [03:54]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [03:54]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I think a lot of people thought Hailey Bieber would be cashing a check and walking away, but she stepped into a more senior role as part of this. I'm not at all surprised that ELF want to tap into Hailey Bieber's ability to influence and literally build the zeitgeist in real time.
- [04:08]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah. Well go Hayley and Lauren. Honestly, Lauren will be pretty happy about that sale as well.
- [04:13]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I don't know if I told you guys this, but there's been two occasions I've called DMs.
- [04:18]
Joanna Fleming
Lauren told me that.
- [04:19]
Unnamed Speaker
Have you got a response?
- [04:20]
Joanna Fleming
Not replied.
- [04:21]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I. After this app I sent her a link to Stylish. I sent our about page. I was like anytime you and we could fly to you. I didn't even chat to the team. I just, I thought I'd pay for it myself if I wanted to go. I want to meet her so badly. Top 10 dead or alive. She's coming.
- [04:33]
Joanna Fleming
There's still time.
- [04:35]
Unnamed Speaker
There is.
- [04:35]
Joanna Fleming
Maybe I can try and arrange that for your birthday. Leave it with me.
- [04:38]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Like a cameo from it.
- [04:39]
Joanna Fleming
Yes. Oh, my God. Great idea.
- [04:41]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah. But also take on from a Real Housewife. Actually, that's what we need to get you.
- [04:47]
Unnamed Speaker
Yes, we do. All right, what have you got?
- [04:50]
Joanna Fleming
Because you were away in New York.
- [04:51]
Unnamed Speaker
I was. And honestly, you guys, I just love New York. I feel like it's always, like, buzzing and so inspiring, and obviously it's warmer over in New York. So I thought I would swap in today a few looks that I saw on the streets, but also in a lot of our buying appointments. And I think something that I've really noticed is just how playful everyone is in New York. Like, they layer pieces, they have fun with, like, their accessories. And they also make accessories. Like the statement. Like, obviously, summer flip flops, obviously. But they were everywhere. And I don't know if you guys have been keeping up with the controversy around the row and their June flip flop.
- [05:26]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
No.
- [05:27]
Unnamed Speaker
Essentially, like, it's like a rubber thong. It kind of just looks like a Haviana, and it's either got, like, a red sole or, like, a beige sole.
- [05:34]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I've seen these.
- [05:34]
Unnamed Speaker
They're so simple, and they're like a thousand dollars. And so people are just calling them out left, right, and center. But because of all of this, I just couldn't help. It's kind of like. I don't know if you guys do this, but when you were single, obviously, maybe mid. Sorry, I'm looking at you.
- [05:48]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Always the eye contact.
- [05:49]
Unnamed Speaker
But I would judge a guy from their shoe up. And so on the streets of New York, I just looked down and then, like, up first, and I saw so many red flip flops everywhere. So there's a little swap for you get a red flip flop, even if it's just a heavy A or something from Target. Like, you could easily replicate that trend. But so much lace. Like, feminine dressing everywhere. You probably saw me layer my little lace slip over some jeans, but very Carrie Bradshaw. Everyone was kind of rocking lace pieces, even if it's, like, lace popping out the bottom of your jumper. Super cute. And then also a lot of statement necklaces and statements that were like, silver shells or like, a really beautiful kind of simple black rope necklace with, like, a, like, bead or a big tassel. Like something very kind of different, but quite a statement, which I really loved. And I found a cute brand called Nuri Studios N U R I, which I'm obsessed with, and they were kind of really nailing that trend as well. So those are a few things I saw.
- [06:42]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I'm excited. I'm going in two weeks, so watch me go and buy some red flip flops and some lace to pick. I know I can't say, you might.
- [06:47]
Joanna Fleming
Want to pick some up for your tr.
- [06:49]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I thought you're going to say, pick something else up for my trip. Yeah, all things go to plan. Kidding. It's a girl's trip.
- [06:56]
Joanna Fleming
Sure. So my swap this week is a fragrance that I've actually gone back to. I was using Penhaligon's Solaris, I think it's called, which I think we've had a conversation about on this podcast, or maybe separately, but you hadn't heard of Penhaligon's before, which is a great fragrance brand. But I have gone back to Juliet has a Garden, Not a Perfume, which is a molecular fragrance. And it can be layered, and it's just so fresh. And I sprayed it on a jacket the other day, and then obviously I put the jacket back in my cupboard, and then I got it back out and put it back on. I was like, oh, God, I smell good. And it was that fragrance. I'm like, why did I ever stop using this? And so now I'm back on my Juliet has a gun train and I can't get off.
- [07:37]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I have still not tried either of those. I think we should go and have, like, an excursion day where we all swap in or show, like, favorite fragrances or beauty products and.
- [07:45]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah, really good idea because you guys always look so fresh and you smell delicious. So, like, I'm all on board for this.
- [07:52]
Joanna Fleming
Great, let's do it.
- [07:53]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I don't think I look always fresh, but I would back myself say, I always smell. I have a good smell.
- [07:57]
Unnamed Speaker
You always look delicious and taste delicious.
- [08:05]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I don't know where they came from.
- [08:07]
Joanna Fleming
Leave that in.
- [08:08]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I just want to really. I just want to really reiterate. Annika's never. I don't even know where to go.
- [08:17]
Unnamed Speaker
There's something wrong with me.
- [08:19]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
For those listening at home, she's said what she said. Anyway, we're gonna update my Instagram bio. Looks delicious, smells delicious, and tastes delicious.
- [08:31]
Joanna Fleming
Well, anyway, following on from the swap, we have a very, very detailed episode to get through, so we better jump into it. Yummy. Okay, so obviously, while we were on our break, some very big headlines came through. The biggest one, I would say, in the scope of things that we talk about, would be the Ultraviolet and Choice scandal, which has unfolded over the Last week. So if you're an Australian skincare lover, you've probably already seen this Choice report on Australian sunscreens. It was released on 12 June. Then all of the social stuff started coming out. So the article came out. I saw that in the morning. I was already getting emails from clients wanting to change sunscreens. I was getting DMs asking what my thoughts were on it. I was on Ultraviolet's website looking at their statement to see what had been said. And then that afternoon is when all of the news outlets started picking this up.
- [09:31]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah, and before we get into sort of the complexities and details of this episode, we do want to disclose that we as a business have previously worked with Ultraviolet. So we have worked with them on Stylish and another Shameless media podcast, Everybody Has A Secret. In conjunction with that, Jo and I have also worked in the beauty industry for a number of years, Jo as a creator and client side in retail, me on the retailer and manufacturing side. So we want to be transparent that we have worked with people from Ultraviolet and within the SPF industry as a whole before as well. But back over to you, Jo.
- [10:05]
Joanna Fleming
Yep. And obviously I don't shut the fuck up about sunscreen at the best of times. So before we jump into Choice's findings, let's do a little bit of background on what Choice is for those that have never heard of Choice before these articles started dropping. So it was previously known as the Australian Consumers association, but they're a non for profit consumer advocacy organisation. So essentially what they do is to try and empower Australian consumers to make informed decisions on everyday purchases. So that could be on an air fryer. In this case it's a sunscreen. So they're mostly member funded with the exception of grants and government funded research projects. So that means that the work that they undertake is always independent. They say they have over 400,000 active members, which is really sizable. It's, it's kind of like a union for consumers, I would put it. Their mission statement says they ensure the consumer voice is heard loudly and clearly. And they do this through independent testing. They have their own purpose built lab facilities, research, advocacy and journalism. Which brings us to their recent report on Australian sunscreens. So they tested 20 sunscreens in an independent accredited Australian lab and found that only four provided the SPF 50 protection that was claimed on their label. The worst performer out of those tests was a cult favourite sunscreen by Ultraviolet, which is their lean screen SPF 50 plus mattifying zinc sunscreen, which is A physical sunscreen. So this sunscreen received an SPF rating of 4, which was the lowest out of all 20 of those sunscreens that were tested. Some of those sunscreens were chemical sunscreens, some were physical. There is quite a big difference, as Mads you could probably speak to as well, between a chemical formulation and a physical formulation, for sure. So that result came back at a rating of 4. And the choice team commissioned a smaller additional test at a lab in Germany to validate those results. And that test found the product had an SPF of 5, which was very close to Choice's initial testing. Unsurprisingly, as a result of that article coming out with the SPF of four being at the top, and that was really the focus of that article, people were freaking the fuck out about the fact that they had been using this sunscreen. They're like, I don't know if I've been getting the right sun protection. I can understand why I was getting so many emails and DMs from clients and people that follow me on the Internet. I would be concerned as well if I didn't know the whole context of this. And headlines can be very inflammatory, is kind of how I would put that. Ultraviolet had known about this situation since March, and so they had already undertaken some testing with their lab that manufactures their sunscreens and they had put together a statement that was already on their website the morning that that article came out, which had stated a very different outcome to what Choice had gotten in their testing. And what they came back with was an SPF of 61.7, which is obviously well above the SPF 50 that is advertised on the product. They didn't accept Choice's results as even remotely accurate. According to their statement, Ultraviolet also claimed to have never received a single substantial claim of sunburn. And later that same week, Ultraviolet's co founder, Ava Matthews Chandler, shared a video to the brand's social media where she went through the independent test results that Ultraviolet had commissioned and she spoke about Choice's testing methods and criticised them for decanting the product before testing it, among other things. So we're going to play you a clip of what Ava had to say on their socials now.
- [13:36]
Ava Matthews Chandler
So please know that we are taking this so seriously. We are continuing to investigate this matter to understand how this could have happened and how the results are so different. Our hypothesis is there are a lot of uncontrollables in the way Choice tested our product. What we do know is that we were able to control how we sent our product, the Lab, which is a very reputable lab. Many brands use this lab. They are ISO accredited, they are FDA accredited. I'm going to be very transparent with you and that's why I'm giving you this kind of overview of how a sunscreen kind of comes to market in the back, in the background, before you kind of see the fun and marketing and. And just know we are never trying to mislead someone or sell you a product that doesn't work. We stand behind the tests we've done. We stand behind the information that we have provided to the tga. We will comply in any way with them as needed to make sure that this is ironed out. All that to say is there is a lot of nuance to SPF testing. We have the data to support testing results. It is on our website. Choice has also published their data. That's fine. There are two very different numbers. We are as baffled as you are. Those numbers are so different. All we know is that we have complied with the tga, we have done additional testing once we heard about this issue, and we are continuing to work through with our manufacturer, our testers.
- [15:02]
Joanna Fleming
As Ava said, there's a lot of nuance around SBF and the TGA and all of this. There's a lot to unpack, but it's not as simple as it seems in the headline. So there is a lot going on behind the scenes. The latest that I understand is that some independent testing is potentially going to be undertaken by Ultraviolet because, as they've claimed in their statement, they have had some testing done to confirm what they believed and that was done in their lab that they have their product manufactured in. So I think that that will hopefully help to clarify what has gone on here and potentially help to clear up what has happened between Choice and Ultraviolet. And how are they getting such vastly different readings on SPF in this product?
- [15:51]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah. And I want to start by saying I completely understand if you, as a consumer who prioritises wearing an SPF daily, well done. If you do that, saying that 16 out of 20 popular commercialised SPFs not passing what they're advertising is unsettling.
- [16:11]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [16:11]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I completely empathize and understand. This is incredibly complex and as Jo, you've alluded to, titles and headlines can be really inflammatory and the Internet can be a savage place. There were people throwing out SPFs that weren't even tested and they weren't just Ultraviolet. And what I do want to say is that having worked in the beauty industry and worked very, very closely on SPF with product development teams in labs Australia, without a doubt has the strictest SPF standards of anywhere globally. That is. That's not a debate, that's just a fact. Every single primary SPF sunscreen that you see, a little codon with the word Austl or Austell Austell must pass TGA accredited testing to be sold in this country. So for me, what it highlights is that different labs, different testing protocols, and even product handling methods can provide vastly different results.
- [17:12]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [17:13]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
So being an informed industry professional, I'm looking at brands, but I'm looking way more at the tga because I think the TGA have a lot to answer for about how to create uniformity in this industry and this testing rather than scattergunning every brand.
- [17:33]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [17:33]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Now, that's not to say that I think the 16 products that haven't passed get a free pass. I'm just saying that's what it highlights for me, being in the industry as an informed industry professional.
- [17:44]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [17:44]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah, okay.
- [17:45]
Unnamed Speaker
Because when I, like, saw these headlines, I must admit, like, as someone who is not clued up in the industry, I was so alarmed and, like, I am an avid SPF user. Like, it's one of those things that is such an integral part of my beauty routine. And I think I just felt like, shit, if we can't trust, like, you know, what the packaging says, what the brands say, who can we trust? And I think that's where it was really unsettling for me because, you know, you trust the brands that you buy these products from.
- [18:12]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [18:12]
Unnamed Speaker
And I also kind of wondered, why is it that Ultraviolet is getting so much scrutiny in this? Is it because they are two leading female founders? Is it because their brand is in the zeitgeist? Is it because, you know, they have captured, I guess not to sound like their tagline, but the next gen in skincare? And it was kind of alarming to me to see, like, all of these other reputable brands who I would cover my body and, like, you know, always opt to always trust to not pass those claimed SPF ratings as well. I guess now that we've had a bit more time to sit on it, it did make me wonder, okay, as a consumer, who can we trust? How reliable is this testing? And how do you actually get that uniformity across the board so we can buy with confidence?
- [18:55]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Totally. And Jo, I know you've worked in the beauty industry for a really long time as well. We know how much you preach the importance of SPF. You're seeing this, you've got clients flooding your DMs, how do you feel?
- [19:09]
Joanna Fleming
When I first saw it, I was like, that can't be right.
- [19:11]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah.
- [19:12]
Joanna Fleming
I was immediately skeptical of, like, that just can't be accurate. And mainly because I know the Ultraviolet brand so well. Like, there's just no way, like, I couldn't. And then I read their statement. I was like, okay. Trying to, like, you know, make an informed opinion, but I also can't disagree with the fact that, you know, Choice have done this testing. I want to know more about what went into that and whether or not there is some accuracy involved there and what that means for my own clients, because I'm recommending that brand quite frequently to my clients. So I've also got to make sure that I've got their best interests at heart as well.
- [19:48]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah.
- [19:49]
Joanna Fleming
And it's, you know, they're not cheap sunscreens either.
- [19:51]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [19:51]
Joanna Fleming
A fairly expensive sunscreen to be repurchasing as something you use every day and you use a lot of.
- [19:57]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah.
- [19:57]
Joanna Fleming
So as you said, I had clients emailing me, being like, I want to change my sunscreen. I'm like, you're using Supreme Screen. It's not even the same statement. Not even the same one. And sending them that statement just so that they could be assured that there is some investigations going on. And I think those investigations, as Ava has said, are continuing. And I've seen them responding to comments on socials that they are looking into it further to make sure they can clarify it for their consumers. Because I know how seriously Ultraviolet take brand, and when I first saw this break, I was like, oh, they are going to be spewing about this because they put so much emphasis on their brand. This article has been probably a huge dint in their brand, and I think it will take a long time to recover from this if they are unable to clarify what has gone wrong here.
- [20:48]
Unnamed Speaker
I've got to admit as well, I did listen to Ava's response, and it was quite lengthy. The whole actual response was, I think, around eight minutes. And I think as well, just not being clued up in the industry, being quite a novice to, like, all the testing, I did get a bit lost along the way. I did kind of find it a bit hard to keep up. But what I do appreciate is how transparent she's been and how committed she is to standing by her brand statement and actually just showing that commitment to, like, no, we will get your trust back and we will show you and we'll do our independent testing. We'll continue to be quite transparent. So I really did appreciate that.
- [21:21]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah.
- [21:21]
Unnamed Speaker
But it is, it's so alarming. Just like the variances and also like how vast they are and something. Okay, you guys actually might be able to educate me on this. When I travel, I decant my products into the minis. Why can't you decant sunscreen?
- [21:35]
Joanna Fleming
The packaging can be part of the reason that the product stays stable.
- [21:40]
Unnamed Speaker
Okay. Right.
- [21:42]
Joanna Fleming
Don't decant any serums. You can. Any serums or sunscreens. You can do cleanser, you can do moisturiser. That's all I'd let you decant. Okay.
- [21:50]
Unnamed Speaker
Okay.
- [21:50]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
In my opinion, Ava's statement was their best go at a response. She's human, she's clearly emotional, but she's stable enough to obviously be speaking about it. I think that was the best thing they could do in that moment. She's speaking freely, openly. I think it was really important she wasn't reading a pre prepared statement. I think it's really important that she's trying to explain it. I think that's why it went on for eight minutes, because there's a lot of complexity and layer to it and maybe that's too much information. I wish that they could have done that in three minutes. I don't think they could have given all that info in three minutes. But you go on TikTok and people are making decisions really instantly and really intensely in just a matter of seconds.
- [22:35]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [22:35]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
You know, it's like, fuck these guys.
- [22:37]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [22:37]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
For me, I'm also looking at the Cancer Council who did not score well. And given the nature of their name, it's interesting to me that Ultraviolet is the name at the top of every headline.
- [22:47]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [22:48]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I know that Cancer Council have released a statement, but I just don't feel there's as much hate going on to the other brands as there is Ultraviolet.
- [22:54]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah. And I don't want to seem like I'm leaning too far towards like favoring Ultraviolet either, just because I'm familiar with the brand. But I just feel that there's still so much to find out that I'm not prepared to go one way or the other differently. And knowing what I know, I feel that there is going to be more to come out.
- [23:12]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
There will absolutely be more to come from this. Every single SPF brand. And I have spoken to multiple manufacturers and finished good manufacturers as well. So for anyone who knows, there can be manufacturers that just do fill, so they might just make the bulk SPF and then you provide your packaging. There's also people that I know in the industry who Create the entirety of that process. They'll get your carton, they'll get your tube, they'll get your fill, and they'll bring all of those parts together. Every single one of them right now would be doing independent testing behind closed doors. Everyone, even those who passed, I have no doubt, would be going out and doing that sunscreen.
- [23:49]
Joanna Fleming
It's a very difficult thing to be able to talk about because creators and influencers, we cannot accept payment or gifting and then talk about a sunscreen and say, I love the way this goes on under my makeup. I love that this gives a dewy finish. I love, I love, I love. Or I use this.
- [24:06]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
It sits well under.
- [24:07]
Joanna Fleming
It sits. Yeah. You cannot use any of that language because of the tga. And so there's so much anti sunscreen sentiment going around at the moment because of the level of greenwashing that goes on, and it's just demonized all the time. And then to have something like this happen really kind of pissed me off because I'm like, why now did Choice decide to come out with this article when we already are struggling to get sun safe messaging through people's heads and get them to use sunscreen every day, and then they go and throw something like this out into the wind for people to pick up and it just. It does my head in. So I'm like, I can't even communicate that. But you know, I love sunscreen.
- [24:48]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah, I'm with you, Jo. I was so frustrated by this because I worked in store at Mecca at 18 and have been wearing SPF every day since then. Like, all it took was like a week working in that retail environment to learn the importance of spf. And I was not sun smart as a teenager. I just wasn't. And I am paying dearly for that every time I sit in front of a Vizier machine. And I've been wearing sunscreen every day for the last 12 years. I'm furious at what this will do to the industry and what it will do to brands, but what it will do, most importantly to customers who are at risk of skin cancer by not wearing sunscreen. Fuck Botox, fuck filler. That is not going to fix your sun damage. But what Choice has done is created mistrust. And I understand there are going to be discrepancies and more work, but in a culture where we're already glorifying tanning lines again and illegal solariums are back on the rise, and I'm having arguments with girlfriends at dinner tables about wearing sunscreen, this does nothing to instill confidence that the sunscreen you're buying is protecting you from not only cancer cells, but aging. So if it's not cancer that scares you, let it be the vanity metric of aging.
- [26:00]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah. Yeah. That was my biggest gripe with this headline, was this is just sending us further backwards. And we'd made really good progress up until the TGA slapped bans on creators and influencers being able to talk about sunscreen in certain ways.
- [26:17]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah. So I think the TGA have a lot to answer for in this, and I hope that they step in and in a big way to think about the testing and the uniformity required across it, because we can't have situations like this.
- [26:31]
Joanna Fleming
No.
- [26:31]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
It's not fair to the consumer and it's not fair to the brands.
- [26:34]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [26:34]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
And the consumer is at the top of that pyramid always. The customer is always the most important. And I think they have a lot that they need to answer for and in the creator space as well. Because clearly the changes that they've implemented to claims and commentary around SBF are not working. Because if I can see paid ads and brands advertising for tanning products, and I'm talking sitting in the sun, I'm not talking your Bondi Sands at home.
- [27:01]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [27:02]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Then I think you should be able to say that your SPF sits nicely under your makeup if it's going to stop you getting skin cancer.
- [27:07]
Joanna Fleming
Preach.
- [27:08]
Unnamed Speaker
Exactly. I'll tell it all day, every day.
- [27:12]
Joanna Fleming
Okay, next, we're going to be discussing all things biological age and beauty innovation. But that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.
- [27:21]
Anika Joshi Smith
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- [28:14]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Well, while we're on the topic of aging, our next headline is would you want to know your skin's biological age? Quick round five before we start. Would you want to know yes or no before I tell you anything about this?
- [28:24]
Joanna Fleming
I've already been told before.
- [28:26]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Okay. Would you want to know?
- [28:27]
Unnamed Speaker
Joe tells me every day, but absolutely, Nick.
- [28:32]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Okay, so a little bit of context here. Over a week ago, our head of podcast, Lucy was very, very lucky and was invited to go to Paris with the l' Oreal group, where they hosted an event on all things longevity, which seems to be kind of, I would say it's the buzz beauty word of 2025.
- [28:50]
Joanna Fleming
And this isn't sponsored, by the way.
- [28:51]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
No, it's not at all. We've, we've received really interesting $0, but we just thought this was really bloody juicy, so we're including it. And look, you may have heard the word longevity circling around in the beauty industry. As I said, I kind of feel like it's the word of the year, but it's kind of in the health and wellness industry, too. And for the l' Oreal group, they're really shifting away from the traditional idea that youth is the only thing we're striving for with anti aging products and moving more towards products for our own individual aging processes. So what does that all mean? That means that we're about to hear much more about our biological ages, which is the age we rate internally inside our bodies. We've previously heard about this on a Kardashians episode. Have either of you seen this episode? Yeah. That doesn't shock me that you've seen that. Even if you didn't watch the Kardashians, I would anticipate. Have you seen it?
- [29:39]
Unnamed Speaker
I have.
- [29:40]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Okay, so for those who didn't, they have spent a very decent amount of money to determine how quickly or slowly they were aging through a biological age test. And if you're wondering the test results, Chris was six years younger than her chronological age. Her face now is about 30 years younger than her age. But Kim was nine years younger, and Chloe came in at the top of the pyramid, 12 years younger. And this was according to the Palm Beach Post. So your biological age can be younger, the same age, or worst case scenario, older. But this is different to what your date of birth age indicates. So this is all a very Interesting phase. But in terms of what l' Oreal in particular is offering, they've built the cell bioprint and it's a lab on a chip that will be available in early 2026. We don't have to wait all that long. This device can do a similar thing to what we all saw on the Kardashians. The only difference being that the Kardashians had a full organ overall biological age check. But on this version, they're offering your biological age based on your skin's cell health. Interestingly, they say this machine can tell you your future skin concerns as well. And it's going to be available in store, so it's going to be super accessible. So with all that in mind, would you head into your local department store and go and get this checked?
- [31:02]
Joanna Fleming
I would be interested too. So, for context, Vizier analysis machines and observe machines have been doing this before. So this tech obviously is designed to take that to another level because it attaches to your cheek and it checks everything that's going on in like the proteins of your skin and all of that kind of stuff. Whereas, like a Vizier analysis, which we've probably all had, if you had one of them too, Annika, where they put your little head in the little cradle and then they take photos of your skin and the machine turns around, you look confused.
- [31:33]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
So.
- [31:34]
Unnamed Speaker
No, I actually haven't. Is that when they do like the blue light thing?
- [31:37]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
No, but that's one of the filters.
- [31:40]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah, they use this imaging that uses multiple lights and so that takes photos of your skin so that it can see different elements of the skin. So it might be looking at sun damage or hyperpigmentation, it might be looking at vessels or redness, or it might be looking at porphyrins, which are bacteria that you might see from like acne prone skin. So there's ways to see your skin under different lights and at different levels, which I've had done before. The last time I checked, here she goes, I was 26 when I did this, the last time I checked the age and I came back as 22 and I've never done it since. And I can't tell you, I was.
- [32:16]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Raised for you to be like 13.
- [32:18]
Joanna Fleming
No, no, no. I. I have the opportunity to do this all the time because I have refresh photos done, like pretty much every time I go to James Vivian to have my skin treatments done. And I will not look at it. You're like 22. Okay.
- [32:29]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Forever, forever. Never going to know anything. But I'm feeling it really with beauty. I always say this about beauty in general as an industry. You're getting someone at their most vulnerable because no one's going in because they've got the most perfect skin or the most perfect complexion. You go to buy a foundation because you want to cover up a little bit of your skin. You're buying the hydration serum because you're a little bit dry and flaky, like everything is because of a need. And so with tech, I just think a lot of the time someone going in vulnerable and you just want to make sure that you're holding your hand and helping them and it's not just a sales opportunity to add an extra product to their, you know, basket.
- [33:07]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah, yeah, Let me say something about that. Because we have an unfair disadvantage being Australian based and growing up in Australia, and that is that we have higher exposure to uv and so we age a lot faster than other people in other areas of the world. And, and the Vizier analysis uses that database of people worldwide to give you your skin age. So I don't feel that that's actually fully reflective of your skin age because we, it doesn't account for the fact that we get all of this sun exposure that people in Finland don't.
- [33:41]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah.
- [33:42]
Joanna Fleming
So it actually isn't as accurate as potentially this l' Oreal tech is. Yeah.
- [33:47]
Unnamed Speaker
Interesting.
- [33:48]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Oh, well, I definitely touched what my last physio result was then. Aren't I go on 27?
- [33:53]
Joanna Fleming
There you go.
- [33:54]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
As a 30 year old woman, I.
- [33:56]
Unnamed Speaker
Need to do this. I feel like I must be like 12 because I've got so much hormonal acne at the moment like any preteen would. So I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna get it done. I'm 12.
- [34:05]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah. But to the L' Oreal tech, I'd only do it if it could help me address things that might be coming down the track, like deep pigmentation or barrier repair that might be needed. But I think knowing like, I don't know, feels playing God to me. I don't wanna know this stuff. I don't wanna know if like, you know, biologically I'm 40. It'll just give me intense anxiety and fear and I've got more than enough of that in the space about everything else in my life.
- [34:36]
Joanna Fleming
But I think this tech gives you the ability to further personalize and I do think that that is relevant and important because if you can foresee that you're going to have issues with your barrier or you might further develop hyperpigmentation issues and you might be able to address those things before they actually come to the surface of the skin. Great. Then you've got preventative measures in place. So instead of going to have injectables, you might then go down the route of having something else done, some other kind of dermal therapies, or you might decide to introduce a retinoid, for example. So I do think that it gives you that pathway to just be a little bit more personalized and spend your budget wiser.
- [35:14]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Exactly right. I think it's all about preventative for me. With any tech like Vizier, this included, it's how retail teams are trained to hold the customer's hand. And this be a journey, not a fear tactic.
- [35:28]
Joanna Fleming
Yes.
- [35:28]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Props to l' Oreal because they do invest in tech. And having worked with some of their brands, I'm talking, you know, professionally, not as a creator. Having worked with some of their brands, the tech that they invest in, what we see versus what we don't. Incredible. So props to them because they don't need to invest in that kind of thing. And it does fill me with a little bit more confidence shopping a l' Oreal brand.
- [35:48]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah, me too.
- [35:52]
Unnamed Speaker
While we all dream of being those people that curate beautiful, thoughtful gifts well in advance, it's not as easy as it sounds. Thankfully, today's sponsor, Daily Blooms, takes the guesswork out of gifting whether a special occasion has snuck up on you or you're just at a loss for ideas. Daily Blooms allows you to choose beautiful flower arrangements and gifts and have them delivered on the same day in about the same time it takes to text a birthday message. Stylish listeners get 10% off. To try Daily Blooms. Just head to DailyBlooms.com and use code shameless10 when ordering. Thank you so much to Daily Blooms for making this episode of Stylish possible.
- [36:36]
Joanna Fleming
Okay, well, now away from beauty and a little bit more into fashion. What went wrong with the costuming on Ryan Murphy's upcoming TV show? So if you haven't heard about this, everything went wrong. Joanna Fleming, from what we can see. From what we can see. So American Love Story is exploring the headline grabbing love story between John F. Kennedy Junor and Caroline Bessette Kennedy. It covers their courtship, their fairytale wedding, and then, unfortunately, their untimely deaths in a plane crash in 1999. Unfortunately, the early stills released from the show, which apparently hasn't been filmed yet, these were apparently very early clips of the show. They've turned up on the Internet and people are saying a lot about the Costuming. There's a lot of conversation around the costuming because Carolyn Bessette Kennedy is considered one of the most enduring style icons of our time. I think that all of us are familiar with her outfits. Like any anything that she was papped in, she just looks comfortable and confident and, you know, she was just like 90s style to a tee.
- [37:42]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah, she's the fucking queen of chic.
- [37:44]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah, there you go. Exactly what you said. So this Vogue article sums up nicely what her appeal was. It was her effortlessly cool street style that stole the show. Fresh faced and tussled hair, she became a byword for turn of the century minimalism and established the modern day fashion editor's uniform. Sleek, understated separates that never go out of style. Similarly, John F. Kennedy Jr. Has remained an enduring menswear style icon as well. WWD writes that JFK Jr. S fashion remains on trend and on designer mood boards even 25 years after the tragic plane crash. So a lot was riding on the costuming for this show. Clearly I would say that it's up there with like the top three most important things. Yeah, the storyline, making sure the actors kind of look similar, the outfitting, like we've got to get those three. They're like top three things we have to get right. And from what we've seen so far, we're off in the costume department.
- [38:40]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Ciao.
- [38:41]
Joanna Fleming
In one. Still, the actress that's playing Carolyn is pictured wearing a champagne coloured satin skirt. Note satin, not silk. And Chuck Taylor shoes or sneakers. Prompting an uproar on social media. One commenter said, I defy anyone to find a photo of CBK wearing anything remotely like a cheap satin skirt and Converse high tops.
- [39:04]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah.
- [39:05]
Joanna Fleming
There was also a lot of backlash to more specific details like the look and feel of the clothes that Carolyn was wearing. As I just said, she would probably have opted for silk over satin if she was going to be wearing some kind of skirt. She was known for her love of high quality designer pieces from labels like Calvin Klein, where she worked as a fashion publicist in the 90s. She also loved other labels like Prada, Miu Miu. So getting those details correct was really important. Ryan Murphy eventually has responded to the online drama. Speaking to Puck, he said that the show will in fact feature all original items that Carolyn actually wore, right down to accessories like her exact model of Birkin. And if they can't find the exact items, they'll be making exact replicas. He listed all of the items the costume department has already sourced. Here's a little snapshot of some of the pieces that he shared. He said, we have an early Prada bag that she wore. We have multiple pairs of Prada loafers. We have the Prada tank dresses, the Miu Miu turtleneck, the Narciso sleeveless tanks, the Calvin Klein Collection 97 leather blazer, and another blazer from that collection. Surprisingly, though, he did push back against criticism that the Converse and satin skirt outfit looked too much like contemporary high street clothes from the early 2020s. He told Puck, there were many photographs of her wearing the shoes, but they were private photographs. They weren't paparazzi photographs. We have references for these clothes. We have pictures of these clothes. They were not from 2023. So I look at that picture and think, well, people are criticizing it and they're wrong, to be quite blunt. So maybe there is actual archival photos and personal photos of her wearing maybe in, like, not to work. I guess maybe she would have been photographed most being out on the town, going to work. Maybe we don't have the personal picture of what she would wear at home. I don't know. How do we feel? You're looking at me very.
- [41:00]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I'm so not convinced. I'm so doubtful. I'm full of doubt. I'm full of doubt in Ryan. Full in doubt of his costume department right now.
- [41:07]
Joanna Fleming
So do we think that the criticism is deserved at this point?
- [41:10]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Totally.
- [41:11]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah, I do.
- [41:12]
Unnamed Speaker
I think as well, like, when you are portraying someone and when you're portraying a biopic on people who are so iconic for their style, like you said at the start, the wardrobe is so important. It not only adds to, like, the credibility of the production, but also of the character.
- [41:28]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [41:28]
Unnamed Speaker
Like, I saw the stills or the early imagery and video content.
- [41:33]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah.
- [41:33]
Unnamed Speaker
There was no warmth. It felt cold. I get it was in studio. It was very staged. But Carolyn was, yes, polished, but she wasn't pristine. You know, like, she had her own individual style and she was wearing white unbuttoned shirts, super crisp, with, like a beautiful black skirt on the red carpet. Like, these looks were so iconic for the time when everyone else was quite dressed up and glam. She would go minimalist. Real timeless beauty.
- [41:58]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [41:58]
Unnamed Speaker
And what I found from those snapshots, videos, whatever, I didn't get that I felt such a coldness from those looks. So from even, like, the personality aspect of what has been shared, it was.
- [42:10]
Joanna Fleming
Not giving the body language was off with the how the actor was wearing those outfits. I think had she been embodying Carolyn in her, like, confident and comfortable kind of Nature maybe could have made the outfitting work. But I think from what we've seen so far, and I don't want to speak too soon because I feel like this is still very much coming together.
- [42:33]
Unnamed Speaker
Yes.
- [42:34]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah.
- [42:34]
Joanna Fleming
And I think it's probably a good time that this controversy has come out and all of these comments have come out because they've still got time to correct it.
- [42:39]
Unnamed Speaker
Exactly.
- [42:39]
Joanna Fleming
It hasn't been filmed.
- [42:41]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Well, Head of podcast Lucy is running with the conspiracy theory that he pre released these photos trying to unlock additional budget because he's peeved about the wardrobe budget. Which I hope so because I'd be pretty peeved too.
- [42:55]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [42:55]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
And I'm not sitting here saying if you wear a Zara satin skirt and Converse like you're not it. Cause the reality is that's what most of us are like wearing in the budget that we're playing in. The reality, though, is that Carolyn was not. That she wasn't like. It wouldn't shock me if you walked into the row office and on a reference board somewhere in there is a very large picture of Carolyn, like. And Annika, I'm so glad you used the word style because she just transcends trend into what it means to be stylish. I would honestly put her next to Lady Diana. For me, like, it is just two women who just epitomize what it is to have a personal sense of style.
- [43:33]
Joanna Fleming
Yeah.
- [43:34]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
And it's immaculate tailoring. And it was the way that she wore her hair and that it was just like a flush of blush and like a sort of like just bitten lip. Like there's so much that's wrong. It's not just her outfits. It's the hair. It's the body language. It's. I mean, it's just.
- [43:51]
Joanna Fleming
She was a very unique beauty as well. She had very unique features that were personal to her, which haven't really been carried across to who's playing her.
- [44:01]
Unnamed Speaker
I don't feel.
- [44:02]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Yeah. And I think of shows that are heavily inspired by true events or by biopics and things like that. You think of the crown, you think of the Devil Wears Prada. You couldn't go and get a Zara knockoff of a Chanel tweed and put it in the Vogue office. Cause that's just not what Anna Wintour is going to wear. Like, you've got to go the real deal. And with the crown like that costume department was just paramount. Like the things that they replicated to get right, the tailoring, the look, the feel, all of that's really Important. And even TV shows like Succession, like, you can't go and get like a watch that's not a Patek. Because if you're talking about billionaires, they're wearing five $600,000 watches. They are like, you've got to honor that. And I think particularly so because Carolyn was such a figure and is still such a figure. You talk about what she means today, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who's not putting her on a Pinterest board. If you're trying to nail that 90s minimal, clean cut, staple wardrobe, you're looking up any of those terms. She's coming up.
- [45:00]
Unnamed Speaker
And she literally was like, before quiet luxury was even a thing. Like, she was the epit. And it's so interesting because, like, in true icon style, that's not what she was trying to be. It was literally just who she is. And I think everything about her has always just oozed this undeniable confidence and things we always talk about which make people, like, so iconic and so cool. But for people, I guess, who are in the industry, I do feel like not having this really thought out has opened them up to criticism because the synergy already between her and Calvin Klein, like, I feel like that was such a missed opportunity to not have Calvin Klein somehow involved in these teasers. Cause for me, like, you get me in the teaser, I'm committed to that show. I'll be following like a loyal fan. And I just also feel like. Sorry, Luce, about the conspiracy theory, but the easiest thing around the budget was that empty Birkin. It's not hard to get some newspaper and stuff. That Birkin. I don't know if you saw, but she was literally carrying the Birkin and it was practically closed in. It was just like deflated.
- [46:02]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
And she had a job.
- [46:03]
Unnamed Speaker
She would have felt offensive to the Birkin totally.
- [46:06]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
But she had a job. She would have had a. This is like not the mobile phone, like, iPhone era, guys. There would have been like a book in there. There would have been her diary. Like, she's busy, she had things on.
- [46:17]
Unnamed Speaker
And she would have carried it how Jane Birkin intended. Like, everything shoved in there, papers falling out. There would be no polish about this. Sans labubu for sure. But it's just like, again, it just feels like there's been so many, I guess, opportunities for people to really kind of critique this just because the wardrobing, the costume department just hasn't really nailed it.
- [46:38]
Joanna Fleming
I'm definitely going to watch this show because I want to see them correct this same I want to see them come through with the goods. And I really hope that that's the case and that they've learned something from this, which I'm sure they have, because you'd be really questioning what you're doing.
- [46:50]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
I hope it's not because they're dishonouring or not giving enough credit to her role and influence on style and fashion. I hope that it is to do with budget or constraints elsewhere or use of designer goods, because I really, I would hope that it is not discrediting her role in this.
- [47:08]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [47:09]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Because if so, shame on you, Ryan.
- [47:11]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah, you'll be hearing more from us.
- [47:15]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
But that is all for this week's episode of Stylish. Thanks so much for joining us again. We missed you guys.
- [47:20]
Joanna Fleming
Glad to be back.
- [47:21]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Hope you missed us a little bit. Tickling your ears once more. And of course, thank you very much, Annika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming. I hope to never be apart ever, ever again.
- [47:29]
Unnamed Speaker
I know. No more breaks. Great snow holidays.
- [47:33]
Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Sorry. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or you're always welcome to slide into our DMS over at Stylish Pod. And we can't forget to thank our audio engineer, John Last, and the shameless media team, head of podcast, Lucy Hunt and our senior podcast producer, Kate Emmetbert. We'll be right back with you with regular programming next Wednesday. See you then.
- [47:56]
Joanna Fleming
Well, bye.
- [48:05]
Unnamed Speaker
This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be aboriginal land.