One of the hardest conversations we’ve ever had to have

Summary

Style-ish Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Style-ish (Shameless Media)
Episode: One of the hardest conversations we’ve ever had to have
Date: September 30, 2025
Hosts: Madison Sullivan Thorpe (“Mads”), Joanna Fleming (“Jo”), Annika Doshi Smith (“Annika”)

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Overview

This deeply personal episode of Style-ish departs from the usual fashion and beauty banter to tackle a complex, emotionally charged topic: deciding if and when to have children. With candor and vulnerability, hosts Madison, Joanna, and Annika share their own journeys with fertility, pregnancy, loss, ambivalence, and hope. The discussion is interwoven with listener survey responses, societal context, and expert advice, making it both relatable and informative for anyone navigating questions of parenthood.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Why This Conversation

• Opening: The episode comes with a content warning for sensitive discussions, particularly pregnancy loss ([00:00]-[00:10]).
• The team acknowledges nervousness, vulnerability, and the importance of breaking the silence on such rarely discussed issues ([00:44]-[01:10]).
• Framing: Inspired by prior “R U Well” episodes (e.g., on loneliness), this installment uses survey data and lived experiences to explore the many facets of reproductive choice ([09:49]-[11:02]).

2. A Lighthearted Start: Weekly “Swaps”

• Japanese head spas—Annika’s rave review for a self-care experience, and the joy of gifting experiences ([01:37]-[04:28]).
• Jo spotlights Pinchapoo, a charity redistributing personal hygiene products to those in need ([04:39]-[06:44]).
• Madison’s rediscovery of Avene Thermal Mist, inspired by skincare influencer Pia Mance ([06:55]-[08:33]). Tone: Friendly, humorous, upbeat—setting the emotional contrast for the heavier main topic.

3. The State of Fertility — Societal and Personal Context

• Stats: Australian women are having fewer children, and at older ages ([11:02]).
• Personal Pledges: Each host commits to sharing their personal context, to model openness before diving into audience survey results ([12:28]).

4. Narratives of Fertility, Pregnancy, and Choice

Each host shares her experience in detail. Notable quotes and timestamps included for key emotional and insight moments.

A. Annika’s Story — Loss, Resilience, and Hope

• Pregnant at 16 weeks but “the journey has been incredibly tough” ([12:28]-[13:03]).
• Loss of her father (July 2023) was followed by two miscarriages—one just before Christmas, another as a missed miscarriage at her ten-week scan ([13:03]-[16:09]).
  • “I thought there’s something wrong with me. … It was like a brain cloud was constantly over my head.” – Annika ([16:12])
• Support from her husband, James, was vital. Seeking help from a fertility specialist (Dr. Raelia Liu) eventually brought them hope ([17:53]).
• No clear medical issues surfaced - “the hardest result to receive” - but a plan and lifestyle overhaul followed ([19:53]-[21:27]).
• Conceived naturally after surgery to remove uterine polyps: “James and I literally did the deed once, and lo and behold, fell pregnant straight away” ([21:28]).
• On opening up: “If I can be anyone else's support or reassurance: you're not alone. This is so common, and I wish we spoke about it more.” ([22:50])
• Spiritual comfort: “When I was really lost, I went and had a spiritual reading, and the beautiful woman told me that she could see both of my little souls sitting there with my dad.” ([22:50])

B. Jo’s Perspective — The Undecided Heart

• Is honest about never having tried for children and feeling “undecided” ([25:18]).
  • “I value my career, my independence, my freedom, my sleep. And I just don’t know whether I can give that up.” ([26:54])
• Navigating a relationship where her partner is ready for children but she isn’t sure ([26:49]–[28:49]).
• The societal assumption that women always want kids, particularly post-wedding, is challenging: “I don’t know whether there are a lot of people that feel like me and feel really anxious about it and think about it constantly.” ([30:08])
• Financial considerations loom large, especially as a business owner without a safety net ([29:08]).
• Emotional complexity: “If that choice was taken away from me, I might think about it differently…” ([29:01])

C. Madison’s Experience — Infertility, Acceptance, and Redefining Hope

• Diagnosed with early onset menopause at 23, forced to face fertility challenges early ([31:01]).
  • “It’s taken a lot of hours and a lot of years with quite intense therapy to be able to sit here and say that.”
• Balances the desire to be a mother with the acceptance that life may be fulfilling without children ([31:01]-[34:28]).
• Determined: “I won’t do it with the wrong person and I will happily do it by myself.”
  • On role models: “A child does not always need to be your biological child to showcase love.”
• Finds comfort in community and in her “village”: “I just feel like I have a village that’s better than most men. … We’d raise a kid way better than a man could.” ([34:28])

5. Audience Survey Insights — Reflections, Trends, and Emotional Realities

• Survey participation: Audience questions covered children, desire, dominant feelings, biggest worries, stress factors, pressure, and ideal timing ([35:55] onwards).
• Do you have/want children? (36:41)
  • 70% don’t currently have children.
  • 68.8% want children, 22% unsure, 9.1% don’t want them.
• Dominant Feelings (37:52)
  • Overwhelmed (42.8%), excited (38.4%), fearful (18.8%).
  • “These statistics made me feel way less alone, and I felt comfort that I’m not the only one freaking the fuck out. A lot of you also are.“ – Jo ([38:09])
• Biggest Stressors (40:21):
  • Lifestyle changes (39%), finances (29.4%), career progression (16.1%), relationship (9.1%), body changes (6.1%).
  • Hosts discuss personal stress points: career, choosing the right partner, and giving up personal identity for motherhood.
• Pressure To Have Children (43:14):
  • 49.1% sometimes feel pressure, 14.5% all the time.
  • “There’s just this assumption that the woman in the relationship must be the one that wants to have the children…when in some instances, it is [the man].” – Jo ([44:14])
  • Madison’s advice: Phrase questions as “Would you like to have a family?” for greater sensitivity ([45:47]).
• Fertility Worries (46:49): 47.3% sometimes worry, 34.8% “all the time.” Both cost and emotional exhaustion highlighted ([49:08]-[50:39]).
• Ideal Age To Have Children (51:16):
  • Most responses cluster around ages 30, 32, and 35. Hosts reflect on how life and career ambitions influence this number—and the loaded term “geriatric pregnancy” for over-35s ([51:16]-[53:05]).
• Partner As Core Consideration (63:31):
  • 74.7% wouldn’t consider children without the right partner.
  • Hosts emphasize not settling, importance of high standards, and the value of self-reliance and support networks ([55:54]-[66:10]).
  • “Do not pick a man because you want to have children. Pick a man you want to have children with.” – Madison ([55:54])
• Decision Not To Have Children (70:20):
  • Key themes: realized no desire, tough fertility journey, financial stress, concern for the world's future.
  • Guest Dani Duncan: “It wasn’t something I’d ever actually wanted to do, rather it was something I’d been conditioned to believe was inevitable… At the end of the day, that’s all I want for women: to know there is a choice.” ([70:33])
  • Hosts note how child-free women attract scrutiny and vitriol, highlighting societal double standards ([71:38]).

6. Memorable Quotes & Emotional Highlights

• “There is never going to be a right time on this journey, but just make sure you protect your head and your heart first.” – Annika quoting her doctor ([13:03])
• “I value my career, my independence, my freedom, my sleep. And I just don’t know whether I can give that up.” – Jo ([26:54])
• “I would love nothing more than to be a mum, but I also really love the idea of my life without children. And I have had to work really hard to be able to say both of those things and for them to coexist...” – Madison ([31:01])
• “If I can be anyone else's support or reassurance: you're not alone.” – Annika ([22:50])
• “I do not wish to be outnumbered. … If I am a single mother, I will have one child. If I have a partner, it’s two max.” – Madison ([53:06])
• “I feel like I have a village that’s better than most men. ... We'd raise a kid way better than a man could." – Madison ([34:28])
• “What you tolerate from your partner, your children will inherit.” – Madison ([54:48])
• “Deciding not to have children is as permanent as deciding to have them.” – Madison ([61:36])
• “At the end of the day, that's all I want for women: to know there is a choice. And whether you choose to become a mum or you choose not to, each life is beautiful and fulfilling.” – Dani Duncan ([71:38])

7. Listener Letters & Outside Perspectives

• Several survey responses highlight a theme of evolving agency and self-reflection—moving from “assumption” to “choice."
• Dani Duncan’s contribution powerfully affirms that fulfillment comes in many forms ([70:33]).

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Notable Timestamps

• [12:28] Annika shares her fertility and loss journey.
• [25:18] Jo’s ambivalence and thought process.
• [31:01] Madison’s experience with early menopause and reframing motherhood.
• [35:55] Survey results segment.
• [40:21] Addressing biggest worries and pressures.
• [43:14] Societal and familial pressure to have children.
• [55:54] Choosing the right partner for parenthood.
• [70:33] Dani Duncan’s child-free-by-choice narrative.

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Conclusion

Tone: Honest, supportive, humorous at times, unflinchingly vulnerable.

The hosts of Style-ish use this extended episode to voice the realities of modern motherhood—or the lack thereof—addressing anxieties, societal pressures, medical challenges, and the fulfillment found on all sides of the debate. Whether through Annika’s triumph after heartbreak, Jo’s thought-provoking ambivalence, or Madison’s resilience and self-advocacy, listeners are left with the sense that there is no singular path to happiness or womanhood.

Final Sentiment:
“At the end of the day, that's all I want for women: to know there is a choice. And whether you choose to become a mum or you choose not to, each life is beautiful and fulfilling.” – [71:38]

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Lucy, one of the show's producers. I just wanted to pop up and.

[B]

Quickly let you know that this episode.

[C]

Contains some content around pregnancy miscarriage.

[A]

We will include a link for support.

[B]

In the show notes but please do listen with care.

[A]

Shameless Media.

[C]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Maya. From wardrobe essentials to event ready pieces, Maya is the destination for summer style foreign.

[A]

This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe. My co hosts today are Joanna Fleming and Annika Doshi Smith.

[B]

Hello. Happy Wednesday.

[C]

Hello, my loves. How are we on this fine Wednesday?

[B]

I think all of us are quite nervous.

[A]

Feeling a little bit nervous, to speak my truth. I have eaten about 45 gummy bears to try and chew away those nerves. So we'll see how we go. How are you guys feeling?

[C]

Yeah, we're getting deep today, but I'm with you on this one. I think I've got the best two people to dive deep into this topic with. So we'll hold each other's hands.

[B]

But the reason that we're nervous is because today we are doing something a little bit different from our usual episode. You might have remembered previously we've done an are you well episode all around loneliness before. And today's is going to be on a different topic that I think all of us are being impacted by individually, but also so are our audience. So we thought it would be the perfect thing for us to discuss today. But before we introduce that and what we're gonna be talking about, let's do our swap for this week. Annika, do you wanna go first?

[A]

Let's do something light before we get into it.

[C]

Yeah, light hearted. I was actually really excited to get my seat back on that, so thank you. Okay. Japanese hair spas, the. They have been all over my algorithm. I have been following along for so long and I actually forgot that one of my girlfriends kindly gifted me a voucher to a Melbourne based Japanese hair spa about two years ago. And I found the voucher and I had to use it before it expired. And I'm so happy I did because it has been a game changer.

[A]

You loved.

[C]

Oh, like understatement. I think like I was like moaning and making sounds to me.

[B]

Oh, the experience.

[C]

Because it was like, no, he could never. Like the way she looks, the way she honestly like touched my scalp was life changing.

[B]

How good is like the halo water thing that goes over the top of your head?

[C]

I got a fright at the start because I Kind of didn't anticipate the sensation to come so fast.

[B]

It also gives you, like full body chills when it goes over your head. So they have like this half circle halo of water that goes over the top of your head and you've just never had water go on your scalp that way. And so it gives you full body goosebumps.

[C]

It's insane. And I had this like cooling eye mask over my face at the time, so it was like the hot and cold sensations as well was just really, you know, it was really, really exciting. But I think this is really important because I don't know if it's just me, but I've put so much money into my hair care, like my shampoos, my conditioners, and just like caring for my hair maintenance. But I've never actually thought about my sculpt, which kind of seems a bit stupid now, but at the start they get a camera and they look at your sculpt, which is so confron. And yeah, I was a bit sickened. She literally could tell that I had not washed my hair for about four plus days and just seeing the build up. And I actually identified today that I don't actually use the right products at all. So I need like a clarifying shampoo and conditioner and she really helped me pinpoint all these things. But I left. My hair felt incredible. My scalp felt so clean. So highly, highly, highly recommend if you guys are in for something a little bit different as well.

[B]

Where did you go?

[C]

I went to Hikari Head Spa in Melbourne, but I think I bought a couple across Melbourne.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, there's lots around Melbourne and obviously other cities as well, but it's such a good gift. I've been to the beauty company in Muni Ponds. So not a traditional Japanese head spa, but they do do a head spa there and they have that experience. Oh, so good.

[C]

It's so good. My one critique would be, you've got to do your hair at the end.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Like, that's the one thing that I.

[B]

Was like, come on, if you could come out and someone does your blow away for you, that would be ideal.

[C]

Game changer.

[A]

That would be a weekly exercise for me. I'm dying to try one. One has recently opened up just near my house. I'm gonna try it in the next week or two. Friend and I have been walking past there every single day and we're like, when that opens, that's girls day sorted.

[C]

Yeah, it's the best little treaty. And, like, such a good gift. So, yeah, Highly recommend.

[A]

I'm excited to get full body chills and a bit excited by. All right, Jo, enough about being excited. What are you swapping in?

[B]

So mine is actually a charity today that I discovered relatively recently. It's been around for a long time.

[C]

But you're really giving the most with your swaps lately. I love it.

[B]

Thanks. Well, this one's called Pinchapoo, so I know that the name sounds a bit unusual, but it's like a shortened version of Pincher shampoo. So these people have been around for, I think, like 16 years. And it's this concept that you would take the things from your hotel amenities. So you would just take like the shampoos and the toothbrushes.

[A]

And you're not stealing, you're just taking the complimentary items.

[B]

You're taking the complimentary items and then donating them to go towards disadvantaged people. Oh, I got it. So they accept a lot of different things now. I tend to donate things that are full sized because I get sent a lot of things that I'm never going to use or never get around to using. And I think they should go to better homes for people that need them. And so they accept things like deodorants, oral care, makeup, skincare, hair care, sanitary products, like a really wide variety of things. And I've got a drop off point local to me, so it's very easy for me to just, you know, drop a bag to this person's house and they can contribute it for me. But I wanted to point out that they've redistributed more than 15 million personal hygiene products to hundreds and thousands of disadvantaged men, women and children nationally each year. And anyone could contribute to this because we've all stayed in a hotel or motel. Some people listening to this might travel for work. Yeah, and you don't take any of that stuff with you. If you travel a fair bit, you could be accumulating this stuff. Just chuck it, you know, in your carry on and then when you get home, throw it in a little bag that you could drop off to a donation point.

[C]

I love this so much. Like, honestly, my mum steals everything. Like, including the hotel slippers. Like, she does not hold back.

[A]

She's not stealing, she's taking what she's doing.

[C]

I know, but you feel like you are, don't you? I do. But now I'm gonna reward my own bad behavior and I'm gonna take everything in sight and I will be doing that. That's just so great.

[B]

It doesn't have to be hotel things. Though if you've got. If you've got new unopened items that you want to donate in any of those categories, like I do, please feel free.

[A]

I love that. I agree with Anika. You are really doing the most heavy lifting in the swap at the moment.

[C]

She's our Mother Teresa.

[A]

I feel like I'm like a bit of an animal now just giving a swap. That's not a charity.

[B]

But no, please. You gave one. You gave fitted for work last week.

[A]

I did, yeah. Actually, you're up next. You bring your charitable donation next. Mine is a beauty product. Jo, look out. Watch your back. I did ask Jo how to pronounce this, so that's always good. It is the Avene. Not to be confused with Avene, for maybe those playing at home who said the same thing, but it is the thermal mist. Now, I cannot take credit for this recent rediscovery. I'll call it. Cause I think like 18 year old me used to beat this like a dead horse. But turn a phrase, turn a phrase. I was listening to a podcast with Pia Mance, the founder of Heaven Mayhem, who has been a guest on this podcast, interviewed by our lovely Joanna Fleming. And she was talking about how it's just completely changed her skin. And I've got to say, I don't love doing a full cleanse in the morning. For my skin. I usually use the kit mineral water cleanser or a facial mist and had kind of just fallen off both of them. I'd been using the Rhode one, but this event one is unreal. Love it. Great way to wake up in the morning. Especially at the moment. I'm like a bit hay fevery. Springtime. Just a nice little fresh.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I sometimes put it on George too. I don't know if that's.

[B]

He closes water. So it's fine for dogs, I guess. HE CLOSES I don't know that they would market it that way, but yeah. The thing I love about that product is the way that it mists.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's not just that it's a mist. It's got like the softest little nozzle.

[A]

It would never. It would never get you in the eye.

[B]

It would never do that.

[C]

I'm loving our sound effects.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good swap.

[C]

Great swap.

[A]

Thank you. All right. And before Jo gets into our next episode in our R U well series, we are going to hear a word from today's sponsor.

[C]

Lately in the office, we've started discussing our holiday plans and swapping links for items on our wish list. A surefire sign that Summer is on its way. And then today our friends at Maya let us know their summer season has begun in store and online, which basically means it's officially every year. Maya is the destination for summer style, a one stop shop for all the best brands, individual pieces and seasonal trends to transition your wardrobe for the warmer weather. And we are so excited for what's to come. Summer 2026 is all about breezy fabrics and easy silhouettes to take you from the city to a coastal getaway. Think one shoulder tops, lightweight sets and flowing skirts. For event dressing, we can expect bold shapes and lots of colour. Honestly, there's something for every occasion and it would be remiss not to mention the style of the season. The denim jort, cool, modern and oh so effortless. With iconic brands like Levi's, Calvin Klein jeans, Jag and Sportscraft, summer is officially served at Mija Shop the season now in store and online. And a huge thank you to mhi' ya for making this episode of Stylish possible.

[B]

Okay, so in today's R U L episode we are going to be talking about how to decide if and when to have children. This topic is closer to home for the three of us and a lot of people in our stylish community, as I mentioned at the top of the episode, were also very invested in this. So in these are you well episodes we put a survey out to you, our stylish community, on the questions that surround wellness adjacent topics. These episodes are always a little bit different for us, but we know how much you loved the last one on loneliness and this conversation. The conversation around how to decide if and when to have children is a topic that we feel really passionate about because each of us have our own personal experiences with this exact topic. We wanted to give a bit of a content warning before we get into this one. We know this is a deeply personal topic with very individual experiences at the heart of this conversation. And we know that this conversation is one that is really hard for many people. And personal experiences are driven by so many factors, be it infertility, cultural reasons, relationship dynamics, personal choice. We know this conversation might not be for everyone because of the position that they're in today. And that's totally okay. We'll be right here with you next week with more regular stylish content.

[A]

And before we get into the episode, we thought it would be really helpful to get an overview of what birth rates are like in Australia right now. And according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, Australian women are having fewer children. The total fertility rate has remained lower than the replacement rate, considered to be 2.1 babies per woman to replace her and her partner. In the absence of overseas migration since 1976, although total fertility remains low, the fertility rate for women in their late 30s and early 40s has significantly increased. So basically, overall, we're having fewer babies than we were in the 70s, but we're seeing a trend of women having children at an older age, which is really interesting. Similarly, rates have also declined in the UK and the us so we're seeing that same trend there. We're obviously really curious and invested in you, our audience's answers to our survey. But we didn't feel that it was fair to just ask you your experiences. And we wanted to come on here and be really open and honest and quite frankly, vulnerable about where we are with our experiences and our feelings at the moment. So I'm going to very kindly ask that Jo and Annika, you both share where you are at the moment. Anika, given that you are the pregnant one in the room, it feels fitting that you start.

[B]

Of course.

[C]

Honestly, you guys, this is such a personal topic. It's so close to my heart. If I get emotional along the way, please bear with me. But as of today, I am so 16 weeks pregnant. And my journey to get here has honestly been incredibly tough. Oh, no, here we go.

[A]

Oh, no, it's. I think there's gonna be a lot.

[B]

We've got tissues in here.

[A]

And honestly, I thought I could feel myself choking in the intro. So I reckon we're good.

[B]

Okay, cool.

[C]

My husband James and I, we have been trying for over two years now. And that two year period has honestly been one of the most traumatic, turbulent roller coasters I've honestly ever had to experience. And Without a doubt, 2023 was the hardest year of my life. So In July of 2023, I lost my dad to a tremendous battle with cancer after six and a half years. And when I kind of thought that I was at rock bottom, I found out I was pretty pregnant in December of that year, which kind of felt like the silver lining our family needed and something that would bring us all back together. And then shortly after that, just before Christmas, I ended up having my first miscarriage. So following my dad's passing, I was already in, I guess, a state of fight or flight. And I just didn't even know, I guess, at the time, how to cope, how to manage. And because I was actually putting my family first, above my own feelings, because I was trying to be strong for my mum and keep it together, my brother's partner. She was also going through some family things as well. And I really suppressed how I was feeling. And so when we did have the miscarriage, I think it just kind of did feel like a bit of a pile on, but one that I only really dealt with by myself and with my husband James, who was so incredibly supportive during that time. But at the time I also didn't really know how to talk about it. And I didn't really have, I guess, a community around me or awareness around me where I felt like it was a safe place to talk about it. So I guess before we even tried to, you know, have children again and even go down that path, some of the best advice I got from my doctor was, you know, there is never gonna be a right time on this journey, but just make sure you protect your head and your heart first. So that became a real goal for me and we ended up conceiving again. I don't know what it is about December, but we were pregnant again in December of last year. Now, call me naive, but I just assumed that having a miscarriage once meant I would never happen again. I never thought in a million years that I would ever experience the same pain that I had gone through. And everything was going really well. I got to my 10 week scan and then there was no heartbeat. And this time it was considered what is called a missed miscarriage, which is essentially your body doesn't register that you've actually had a loss. So I still had all the symptoms. I was actually showing what really happened for me after that experience because I hadn't really dealt with my trauma from the first, let alone the trauma of my dad. It all came crumbling back and I think it was probably one of the darkest and loneliest times of my life.

[B]

Take your time.

[C]

You're doing great. You're doing great, sweetie.

[B]

You really are.

[C]

That was just such an experience, I guess a place that I had never ever gone to in my life. And I think I am such a bubbly, upbeat, you know, I've never experienced anxiety. I'd never experienced these feel that I was starting to feel and the self doubt that I had. I thought there's something wrong with me. I was like, what is wrong with me? And after that experience, James, honestly, I just don't know what I would do without him. He reassured me each step of the way. He was there for me in a time when I honestly didn't know myself. And I didn't know I didn't like the person I was because it was like a Brain cloud was constantly over my head and just having him by my side. He actually reached out to a fertility specialist to try and find out, okay, what can we do next? Where to from here? And I think the hardest part in this journey. Sorry, just to go back the time between finding out that we had had a missed miscarriage versus you have to have surgery at that point to, you know, have everything removed. That period was probably the lowest because it's a numbness that you just, you're crippled with numbness. You're crippled because you don't even know there's what you thought was a life inside of you. And then it's, you know, it's just not there anymore. And so during that time, James did everything possible just to kind of be my strength and everything I couldn't be that I usually would be for us in our relationship. And. And so he then reached out to Dr. Raelia Liu, who is an incredible fertility specialist at Women's Health Melbourne.

[B]

I love Raelia.

[C]

I honestly, this woman has changed my life because I'm clearly pregnant right now and there is a happy ending coming, I promise. But she was kind of that guiding light that we needed and something I never thought I would need at 34 years old. I just never in a million years. Sorry. At the time I was 33, but I never thought my fertility would be such an issue or would be such a problem. And it took us a while, I guess, to be comfortable again, again to get my head right and my heart right before being able to actually sit down with Dr. Rayla Lou and talk through what we had gone through. And so on April of this year, we ended up really just sitting down with her and putting a plan in place. And that's when we changed our entire lifestyle. So, I mean, that's when I stopped drinking, that's when I changed my entire diet. I went on a fertility specific diet. Dr. Rayliello implemented so many fertility boosters and supplements for James and I, and we completely changed our lifestyle in that process as well. We kind of came to terms with the fact that we might need help. So we did so much vigorous testing and she is so thorough to the point where I wish that we had done this earlier. I wish that we had the resources or the tools in our toolkit to actually, you know, make the decision to see a specialist before even going down this path. Because I wholeheartedly believe we would have avoided so much heartbreak. And I think just having. It's one of the biggest decisions of your life. So if it can Be more informed, and if you can, have support around you to help you get to, you know, that happy ending, it is incredible. So we were really getting ready for plan B, which was ivf, and then going down that route. And as a result of our testing, we actually came back with nothing being wrong with either of us. For me, that was the hardest result to receive. I think I'm a fixer. I was like, okay, if there's something wrong, we can fix it, and then we'll have our baby. And I remember just asking her all these questions and being like, but there's nothing wrong. Then, like, why does this keep happening? And she offered me so much reassurance and said, this is actually the best outcome. Like, there's nothing wrong. It's just bad luck. So she put four months in place, and she said, look, I don't want you to ever experience what you've gone through again, but if we can just now that we're in this healthy lifestyle where in this different path, we're managing it, we're supporting you, let's try and conceive naturally in the next four months. And because we wanted to have always more than one child, she said, why don't we look at IVF as your plan B? So that was pretty much our pipeline during that period. We actually found out that I also had polyps in my uterus, and now polyps are kind of like benign tumors. So I ended up having to have another emergency surgery, which was just so invasive and so traumatic. And I relived, I guess, what I experienced post the missed miscarriage again, but crazily. And I don't even know why I did this, but this is just full tmi. We have your little happy sticks, like your ovulation sticks. And I kind of. I was going away for a work trip. I was going to New York, and I just had the surgery, and I was like, oh, I meant to be ovulating. I'm just gonna pee on the stick. And I happened to have a happy face, which I thought was wild. So James and I literally did the deed once, and lo and behold, fell pregnant straight away.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So there is a happy ending. We are now at 16 weeks pregnant. We've seen our little girl's heartbeat. We've seen her little feet kicking. We've seen. Everything is looking really positive, and we have all the right support in place. But it has been the most turbulent, wild roller coaster of my life. And I am just so grateful for the position I'm in today. But I just. If I can say anything. And if I can be anyone else's support or reassurance. You're not alone. This is so common, and I wish we spoke about it more. I wish, as women, we, you know, let miscarriage be a safe place. And I think women often get told that maybe it's their fault or they did something wrong, but there is literally nothing wrong wrong. Like, it just happens. And sometimes it's a blessing when it happens, because I can actually now look back and think, okay, those little souls just weren't quite right. And now this is actually, sorry, me going a bit deeper again. When I was really lost, I went and had a spiritual reading, and the beautiful woman told me that she could see both of my little souls sitting there with my dad. And now it's something that. Sorry. He always wanted to be a granddad, and I just think how great that, like, he gets to be granddad and he looks after my babies upstairs.

[B]

Oh, my God, you're sending me. Sorry.

[A]

I'm sweating bullets.

[B]

Annika, I want to say that we're both really grateful, or the three of us, because Kate's in the room with us as well, really grateful for you sharing, like, such a vulnerable thing with us. You know, we knew some of the stuff that was going on behind the scenes with you, and, you know, knew how hard that that would have been for you. But a lot of people that listen to us each week wouldn't have known that was going on behind closed doors. And that kind of speaks to you. And the points that you've made around, like, miscarriage is something that we should talk about more so people feel less alone. So I know there'll be people listening to this that are so grateful to hear what you have to say today. And I'm really grateful, you know, to have, like, some reassurance from you as well. Thank you for sharing that you're not alone.

[A]

And I think, like, such a testament to how women continue to show up, because you did. You were here on Mondays, and we knew that. And, you know, we would have our moments as friends talking about this and knowing what a hard time you were going through. But your ability to come in and show up and be so multifaceted at a time where that consumed probably all of you. I'm really in awe of that.

[B]

Isn't it amazing how many women do that as well, that, you know, something like this can be happening to them and they're still at work and they're still. Or they're still being mothers to other children that they have and, yeah, it's just. It's insane.

[C]

I honestly just take my hat off. Women, like, I think as well, maybe it is that maternal instinct in us. It's like we put others before ourselves sometimes and we show up and we. You know, I take my commitment so seriously, and so many people around me actually don't even know what I've been through, because I guess somehow I have compartmentalised it and put it into that little box that we don't talk about. But if anything, now I want to change that and I want to be there for people who have also experienced what James and I have, because it also impacts the partner of men as well. And seeing how much it has changed him has been really, really. It's been so hard. But then also, we both now know how much we want this. And I've never been more sure that he is the person to be on this journey with me with, like, I fucking love my baby daddy. I'm a lucky girl. Love you, James.

[B]

That's so sweet.

[A]

Jo, do you want to share where. Where you're at today in the chair?

[B]

Yes. This is a difficult topic to talk about publicly because it's something that I think about multiple times a day, every day, because I'm obviously in a stage of my life where a lot of people are asking about this because we're about to get married. And it's just something that people ask, and it's. They don't mean anything by it. It's just like a conversation point, I think, for a lot of people. I don't mean to be invasive, but when you're very undecided, it can be an awkward conversation to have. And I'm coming at this topic from a lens of someone who's never been pregnant, never tried to get pregnant, never had any fertility testing done. I'm coming from this on the assumption that I will have the choice to have children. And so I just want to set that straight before I even start talking about what I'm going to say. I. I'm in a difficult position at the moment because my partner, Adrian, really wants children. Would be a fantastic parent. Like, I see him with my nieces and nephew, and he just loves kids. Like, he's just the best. I, on the other hand, am not sure that I want to have kids, and that is a contentious point in our relationship, and he's willing for us not to have kids if that's something that I decide. But I feel a lot of guilt associated with that because I feel that I'm taking Something away from him. But I also feel I'm taking something away from myself. So it's something I think I'm gonna need to have therapy for, because I know a girl.

[A]

Yeah, it's not me, by the way. It's definitely a professional.

[B]

I'd happily talk to you about it, but I don't have a lot of friends in the same position as me that I can talk to about this. A lot of my friends already have children or they're pregnant or they're currently trying to conceive, so they're very sure of their situations, and they really want to have children. So there's not a lot of people around me that I can be like, this is how I'm feeling. And they're like, oh, my God. Same. So the more we get into this episode, I think I've, you know, briefly read through the stats, and I felt less alone reading these stats as well. But the things that I am really struggling with in general is that I really value my career. I value my independence, my freedom, my sleep. And I just don't know whether I can give that up. And I know that they seem kind of like trivial things, because it's like, oh, you know, you're bringing a life into the world and all these things. But I. I honestly think about it constantly, and I'm like, I just don't know if I can do it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's kind of a difficult position to be in when your partner really wants kids. And a lot of people around you are asking you, oh, so you're having kids straight away after you've gotten married? And I'm like, no, I don't think that will be happening straight away. It's gonna be something that I come to terms with. But I also value my relationship with Adrian so much. And inevitably, your relationship changes a lot when you have children. I've seen that happen, you know, a lot with people around me. Not necessarily in a bad way, but it's just different to what it was previously. And I met Adrian a lot later than a lot of my friends met their partners. Like, I was. I think I was 29. And so we really haven't had that much time together as a couple. And to be honest, like, I love our life. I love our relationship. And I'm scared of that changing. Yeah. And not liking it and being like, why the fuck did I do this? It was good the way it was. Yeah. And I'm someone that doesn't really, like, change naturally, so it kind of doesn't surprise Me that I'm in this big. Because it's a huge decision to make, and I. I'm probably overthinking it because I think a lot of people have kids.

[C]

Just.

[B]

I don't know that people think about it as much as I do. They're like, oh, yep, let's have kids.

[A]

That's a bad thing to be. Putting thought and serious reflection and consideration behind wanting to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because both decisions are very permanent ones. Yes, very permanent and very personal ones.

[C]

Y.

[B]

Very much so. And the financial side is also a huge factor for me as well. So I bought a house on my own. I have my own mortgage. And taking a hit financially to take time off to have a baby is also a really big consideration for me. And I run my own business, so that means that if I'm not working, there is no money coming in, and I don't know who pays the mortgage in that instance. And so, you know, I'm kind of piling money away for a rainy day for that situation in the event that I'm not able to return to work as quickly as I would like to or I need to take a prolonged period off work. So that's a major consideration. And all of these are such, like, logical things to talk about. And I know that you've just come from such an emotional, like, lens, Annika, but I'm just seeing it so logically at this point and making the assumption that I do have that choice right now, and maybe if that choice was taken away from me, I might think about it differently and be like, oh, fuck, maybe I did really want that. You know, you don't know what you've got until it's gone.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that's why I was so nervous to have this conversation, because I don't know whether there are a lot of people that feel like me and feel really anxious about it and think about it constantly. But honestly, I'm sweating right now talking about it.

[A]

I have no doubt that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people sitting, thinking the exact same thing as you and who feel far less alone hearing someone so succinctly talk through very logical realities. Not everything is a fantasy. Not everything will work itself out. It is important to consider the logical elements that are attached to the decision and eventuation of having children. You are so within your right to feel and think all of those things.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Thanks, Mads.

[C]

Yeah, I really, really respect everything you've just said.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. Mads, do you want to run us through your personal experience with this topic?

[A]

And the tissues. The tissues might need to come back. Look, some of our listeners might already have context of this. I touched on it a little bit in my episode of Inherited. I'm going to try and avoid eye contact with the both of you because I do fear I actually will cry. When I was 23, I was diagnosed with early onset menopause, or otherwise known as premature ovarian reserve failure. Essentially, I haven't been through menopause, but my AMH and fertility specialists indicate that I will go through it at a much earlier time than most. It's taken a lot of hours and a lot of years with quite intense therapy to be able to sit here and say that. I would love nothing more than to be a mum, but I also really love the idea of my life without children. And I have had to work really hard to be able to say both of those things and for them to coexist, because biologically for me, that is the reality I sit with, and that's a very personal one. And that is one that I. I think about every day for very different reasons and I think on different levels. I think Rae always says two things can be true, and I really believe that for me. And I also look at that journey of freezing what I could, and I feel like I was, like, alive, asleep. Like, I just don't remember a lot of that time in my life. I felt so alone and I was such a baby and I was forced to be such a grownup at such a young age. And I would love to be a mum, but I have to really challenge myself on what that looks like for me. I did that with a partner at the time. I look at that journey now and that doesn't define it for me. So I come at the lens of, do I want to go back through that? Because it will look like that for me. And the cost of my peace and my mental health was a very significant one for me. And there's a lot of PTSD attached in that. I look at motherhood as such a beautiful thing and I love my friends, kids, I love my niece and nephew so much, and I would love to experience that myself, but I won't do it with the wrong person and I will happily do it by myself. And that comes with all of the same considerations you have. Jo, it's me. There's no sugar daddy. This is the sugar daddy, this is the sugar mama. And so, you know, for me, it will be. It will mean a lot of things to be a mum, to be a biological mum. It would mean, going through the emotional and physical rollercoaster of all of that. And, you know, hope is the most beautiful thing in the whole world. And in that journey, it can also be a really dangerous one. So it's balancing hope and expectation. And I would say that that is how I summarise where I'm at in it all, is that I continually balance beautiful, beaming hope and really, really honest expectation, and now am equipped with really great knowledge of what options would look like for me, too. My parents aren't together. They haven't been since I was very young. And my stepdad loves me so much and treats me like his own. And so I think that is a testament that a child does not always need to be your biological child.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To showcase love. And I was on the phone with my mum this morning, transparently, because I was so nervous to talk about this. And I said, I just feel like I have a village that's better than most men. And mum said, oh, God, yeah, we'd raise a kid way better than a man could. So, yeah, I sit here very single, but very much would love to be a mum. Yeah. But balance that. I'd be a really fucking cool drunk aunt, too.

[C]

Honestly. You are first up for babysitting, shootings whenever you want, drunk aunt or not, never around children.

[A]

Just to really clarify. Okay, we're going to discuss what you guys all had to say about your decisions, but we're going to do that after we hear from today's sponsor. Our city is a vibe at the best of times, but when the Nike Melbourne Marathon Festival takes over, it's something else. This year's event is coming up on Sunday, October 12th. And while all running distances are now officially sold out, you can still be a part of the action. Whether you're cheering from the sidelines, waving a sign, or soaking up the city's atmosphere, come and experience the energy of 50,000 runners crossing the finish line inside the iconic McGuire. Celebrate Melbourne. Support your friends and witness something seriously special. A huge thank you to the Nike Melbourne Marathon Festival for making this episode of stylish possible.

[B]

Okay, so we've dried our eyes and we're back. So we're gonna get into our audience now because they very kindly contributed to this episode in quite a lot of detail. So our first question that we put out to our audience was, do you have children? And do you want to have children? So, starting out with the basics, 70% of our listeners who responded to the survey don't currently have children, and 21% do. That's over 50% that don't have children. We also asked whether our listeners wanted to have kids, and 68.8% told us they do want to have kids. 22% said they were unsure, while 9.1% told us they don't want to have children. Does this statistic surprise us?

[C]

Not at all.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah, I was pretty like, oh, yeah, that. That makes sense. I was kind of expecting, like, between 5 to 10% to say absolutely not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I Maybe didn't expect 22% to be unsure. Maybe I thought more people would be sure.

[A]

Kind of made me feel a little bit less alone that so many were unsure. Same like, oh, God, it does feel nice being honest in a survey behind your computer in the quiet of your night. That's so millennial of me to say. I did it on my computer. I did do this survey, and I did do it on my LA about making big girl purchases and answering surveys I like doing on a laptop. All right, so our second question was, when you think about the prospect of having children, what's the dominant feeling? And deciding whether or not to have children, as Jo has so perfectly just articulated, can bring up a real cocktail of emotions for our listeners. When you're thinking about the prospect of having children, 42.8% of you feel overwhelmed, 38.4% of you feel excited, and 18.8% feel fear. Do you feel in anecdotally in your friendship groups? This reflects kind of the percentage numbers in your friendship group as well.

[B]

It's tricky because a lot of my friends already have kids, so I'm like one of the very few left to not have them. But can I just say, these statistics made me feel way less alone, and I felt comfort that I'm not the only one freaking the fuck out. A lot of you also are.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I look at my girlfriends who even are pregnant, and they're overwhelmed, like, oh, my God, what am I going to do? And I don't know when I'm going to be right to go back to work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not necessarily the thought of having children doesn't overwhelm you. You can want children and still feel overwhelmed at the thought of it. You know, again, two things can be true.

[B]

Almost 20% feeling fear was quite high. Yeah. I would say. I think that's what made me. Because I feel fear. Yeah. So that's what made me feel like I was not going crazy.

[C]

It's so fair. Like, it's bloody daunting. And I honestly, I don't think that Fear's ever gonna go away. Like, once you do enter parenthood, you're just gonna be scared for your life that that little baby is like breathing and okay. And then they grow up to be 18. And if you're like me, you're jumping out your bedroom window. There's just a whole lot of things that happen like that fear never goes away. But yeah, I definitely think my husband and I used to actually always debate about the right time to have kids because he's a pragmatic thinker. He's so logical, quite like you, Jo. And he wanted to make sure we had the financial stability. There were all those kind of checkpoints in place, whereas I'm a figure it out as I go kind of gal. And I was like, we will make it happen. It will all be okay. So I totally resonate with the overwhelm because even some of my friends now who do have children are constantly overwhelmed.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And it's just, it's kind of part of it. Right.

[B]

Well, on that note, our third question that we asked was what's the most stressful factor when it comes to becoming a mother? And obviously there's a lot to consider when you're making this choice, as I've touched on in my spiral, and whether, you know, you decide whether or not and you know, deciding whether or not you want to be a mother from the health of your relationship, whether you can financially afford it, whether you're willing to accept all of the changes that come with that. But our listeners told us that above anything, they find lifestyle the most stressful factor. So 39.2% of them, or a change to their lifestyle, I assume followed by money and finances, which came in at 29.4%, career progression at 16.1%, relationship stability at 9.1% and body changes at 6.1% as well. So for each of us, I guess what's the most stressful factor for you now that you're actually pregnant? Anika, what's the thing you're thinking about most?

[C]

I actually think for me, I just want to make sure that I can be like a really hands on mum. I want to be there at every event. I want to be, you know, the best possible mum. And I think that means I need to be present, which also means, you know, I own my own business and my career, which I have worked so hard to get to this point, will have to take a backseat. And so I think for me it's that adjustment of giving up. I don't want to say my career Defines me, or it's my identity, but in a way, it really is. And it's. That's half of me. It's who I am. Sage is me. It's an extension of me.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I think that is going to be the hardest challenge that I will have to let go. But at the same time, this day is something that I've been planning for for quite a long time. So at the same time, I do kind of feel that reassurance. Two things can be true, that I put the right foundations in place to set myself up. How about you, Mads?

[A]

I'm probably tired. It's funny because I guess career progression and finances could kind of be intertwined.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because a lot of the time women feel that their careers are kind of. You know, there's a glass ceiling that appears. I mean, it kind of exists anyway, just by agenda, but kind of. It's almost like that ceiling drops as you become a mother. And I think we've all seen it or heard about it in terms of our friends or family. For me, career is a really big one. I've worked really hard. I really doubled down the minute I kind of had fertility challenges, because I was like, if I'm not going to have kids, I'm going to have one hell of a career.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, it's that. And for me, another one is picking the wrong partner to do it with. Because never thought I'd sit here and say it was a blessing not to fall pregnant when I worked as hard as I did to get there, but I would have been doing it with absolutely the wrong person.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So mic drop there, I guess.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah. My answer is all of the above. So, as we know.

[A]

So our next one is. Do you feel unwanted pressure to become a mother? I think so many of our listeners are gonna resonate with this because there's a huge amount of pressure on women to become mothers from society, our own families and friends, you know, sometimes even from our partners. Yes, it has become less expected for women to have children over the last decades, particularly as women have been exposed to positive depictions of child free lives and have gained more independence financially. Shout out to, you know, Samantha from Texas City. But I think that pressure and expectation has never fully gone away, and I think we'd be naive to think so. So 49.1% of our listeners told us that they sometimes feel pressure to become mothers. 24.6% say they rarely feel it, and 14.5% say said they feel it all the time. And 11.8% said they never feel it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Jo, you alluded to feeling the questions about becoming a mother. Have you felt the pressure within those questions or that it's just an exploratory question?

[B]

I think the pressure is more on myself. I don't necessarily feel like there's other people that are like, oh, you have to have kids. I haven't experienced that, really. But in conversations with people that do have kids, sometimes I kind of feel like there's a little bit of pressure there when I'm like, oh, I'm really not sure. There's kind of more of like, a insinuation, like, oh, you know, maybe you should, like, that kind of, like, you know, sentiment. Which is fine. I know that there's no, like, ill meaning with that, but I think it's more pressure on myself and also an assumption from a lot of people that I would be the one wanting to have the kids and that it wouldn't be Adrian. Like, he had someone that knows him very well, but not me, say to him recently, like, oh, you know, is Joe going to be itching to have kids as soon as you guys are married? And he was like, quite the opposite, actually. That would be me.

[C]

I'm ready.

[B]

Yeah. So I think there's just this assumption that the woman in the relationship must be the one that wants to have the children and that it can't possibly be the man, when in some instances, it is them that wants that more.

[A]

So, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I definitely felt so much pressure, and I also think I felt it really early in my relationship with James, because, God, we'll be together, I want to say 12 years in January, but we've been together for a long time. And we met when I was 21, and he was, God, 26 maybe. And very early on in our relationship, I remember him hitting his 30s, and people were like, okay, well, when are you dropping the knee when a baby's coming? And there was so much pressure around us because I am one of the youngest in our friendship group, and so I am one of the only girls that hasn't actually had a baby yet. And I just remember the second we got married, it was like, boom. People thought that that was gonna happen, and it happened in a really unfortunate way.

[B]

Yeah, I'm scared for the questions to come rolling in post wedding.

[C]

It's bizarre. It's literally like a textbook where it kind of just happened for us straight away. And even after my miscarriage and people knew that what we had gone through, still, sometimes I got awkward in, like, conversations. It was kind of like parents, friends, and like, you know, uncles and aunties that didn't really know how to address the topic. But we're like, so when a kid's coming and I'll be like, check yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I have some really, I guess, tangible advice for anyone who might want to be asking a friend of theirs just if they ever want to have a family. I think that's a really lovely question to ever ask someone is, would you like to have a family?

[C]

That's great.

[A]

That's not saying, do you want to have kids? Because you're assuming someone can. You're not asking when you're not asking what or how. It's just saying as a generalized hope. I say this from a personal place. I would never say this to someone I didn't know well. I would only say this in a quiet comfort that I felt a friend and I could have that honest discussion. Would you like to have a family? Do you see yourself having a family? There is nothing about a timeline or a question. It opens a really safe space. And I think having that kind of honest conversation without any pressure for them or assumption is a really kind way to go about it and why I've gone, given what I've gone through.

[C]

Amen. Honestly, that should have been your swap.

[A]

Well, bonus swap for all of the fertility challenges and fucking hell of four years of my life that that was. I have to say, the silver lining for me is I don't feel that pressure because I feel I've done everything I can.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I know that that's not a feeling, that's a fact.

[B]

Yeah. Like the biological clock is kind of out of your hands at this point.

[A]

Absolutely. And I feel that it's taken out from dating. I don't feel that pressure. I mean, definitely a lot of other layers that are added to that dating experience because of that certain experience. But I don't feel this pressure to find the one or to do it by a time because I've done what I can.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I look at friends and I was away recently for a friend's wedding and overheard someone ask her when they would start trying. And I'm like, the dress hasn't even left the DHL depot yet. Like, I might give them a break. That is none of your business. And that is as simple as that. It's personal. It is not for you to say. When are you going to start trying? Would you like a copy of her Flow app, too?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I just. Yeah. Anyway, that's my small rant over on that one.

[C]

Yeah, the audacity.

[B]

Well, speaking of fertility, our next question that we asked our audience was, do you worry about the state of your fertility or your ability to conceive and carry a pregnancy? For some people, the decision to have children can be rife with roadblocks, as we've spoken about quite extensively already. We asked our listeners whether they worry about the state of their fertility or their ability to conceive and carry a pregnancy, and 47.3% said sometimes, 34.8% said all the time, 10.8% said rarely, and 7.2% said never. This is obviously a very sensitive and sometimes painful topic. And knowing that 34.8% of our listeners worry about their ability to conceive all the time shows us how all consuming that can be when you're in that headspace. Of course, I think we've spoken quite a bit about, you know, our experiences with that. Do you guys have anything else that you would want to touch on with that particular question?

[C]

I think before I started my journey, like I said before, I never worried. And now in hindsight, which is such a beautiful thing, I think if I could have my time again, I would have. If I was so consumed and so worried, or even maybe not worried, maybe just wanting to know what my options were, I would have looked into it further and I would have gotten the help because I wholeheartedly believe that my outcomes could have been different and my heartbreak could have been different.

[A]

Feel like the only other thing that I need to add is that fertility treatments are really expensive and retaining options for yourself is an expensive task. It's like tipping money into your superannuation and not knowing if you're going to use it. I mean, I hope I live to 65 and use my super. Yeah, but freezing your eggs, especially if you're unsure, is an expensive task. And going, am I going to spend all this money and do, am I going to use them and what if that round is not a successful one and I need to do it again? Like there's no money back guarantee infertility treatments. And I empathize with people with the fertility anxiety right now. And I've spoken a lot off Mike about this actually with Ray, but I think there's a lot of like paid sponsorships happening at the moment for egg freezing and proactive fertility decision making and fantastic businesses coming up where you can send away small blood samples to get your AMH tested, which is one of the contributing, I guess, pieces of science that can help anticipate your Ovarian reserve. But seeing those kinds of things and being targeted in those ads can be quite anxiety riddling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. I think, you know, I'm not at all surprised to see that people are at times anxious about this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because even if they present no fertility challenges or have no experience with it, just seeing that content can be really hard. But, sure, I think just acknowledging the privilege that comes with even being able to think about it or afford to undergo it is a privilege.

[C]

Definitely.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. All right, next one is, if it were to be as easy as picking an age to have a child, what would your ideal age to have a child be? So, overall, most of our listeners view their 30s as the ideal time to have children. The most popular answer was age 30, with 20.1% of listeners choosing this was then followed by 32, which was 15.9%, 28 was 12.2%, and 35 was 10.4%. Annika, in particular, as you're pregnant, has the age you wanted to have kids ever been a consideration for you?

[C]

I think my ideal age, if I could have had it my way, would have been 30, and mainly because I've always known that I've wanted to have more than one child. And this is going to be a sickening fact for everybody, but once you hit 35, you're considered. You're having a geriatric pregnancy. Jo and I were laughing about this because in the script, I was really struggling to spell geriatric.

[B]

I was writing notes at the same time, and she did so many tries at it, and I was, like, literally writing notes to her, like, oh, my.

[A]

God, it's spelt this way.

[C]

Call me Jerry.

[A]

She's always got your back.

[C]

I know she does. That's my girl.

[A]

You don't need chatgpt. You've got jokes.

[C]

So I think that would probably be like. It's kind of like I'm just pulling out a number. Right. But I had a great 20s. Like, my 20s were fantastic. But then at the same time, I also think, what would I have given up if I actually had fallen pregnant at 30? Because that was when I started sage. And so my life right now would look so different. But, yeah, in an ideal world, 30 would have maybe been my golden number.

[A]

Yeah. What's your golden number, Jo?

[B]

I'd probably go between 36 and 38.

[C]

Yeah, that's my cherry.

[B]

Yeah. Yep. Call me geriatric. No, I would wait as long as I possibly could.

[A]

If I went to Disneyland and just everything was perfect and great, I'd pick 34. 35. Reality number. Probably more like 37, 38.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

If I'm gonna be a solo artist, look out Beyonce, realistically to set up my business and what I'm working towards. Yeah, it would probably be a little later.

[B]

I also, to come back to your point, Annika, you know, you want multiple children. If I'm to have children, I'm not sold that I would want multiple. So I think that's why I'm okay with that later timeframe, because I'm like, okay, well, if I'm 38 and I'm not having any more, that's all right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Do you want to know my hilarious theory about having children? This is. This is grounded in no fact. And this is not to offend anyone who has more than two, because I have so many friends that do and power to them. I love being Aunty Mads. I do not wish to be outnumbered. So if I am a single mother, I will have one child.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

If I have a partner, it's two max, baby.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And hell no. Do I want to have to field two at a time? I'm like, one each. One each.

[B]

Well, I'm one of three, and I, yeah, I could agree with that, but I also, I don't know, based on my experience with two older brothers, I don't know whether I would have three.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

As the youngest girl of two older brothers, I don't know that I would do that. Question 7 is what lifestyle circumstances have impacted your previous answer? So it kind of flows on from that. We've got a selection of answers here to read out that touch on some of the common ones that people brought up. So. Answer one. I think 29 to 30 is the perfect age to start having kids. At least it was for me. You're young enough that if you have infertility issues, then you hopefully have enough time to work through them. You've also lived enough of your own life to know what you want your future to look like. You're more financially stable and you've established yourself career wise enough to return to it after having kids if you want need to return to work. Answer 2. I'm married, but I also feel like my partner is not emotionally ready to support me through pregnancy and motherhood. He wants kids, but I don't think he understands fully what it needs or how it will change me. I'm worried that his lifestyle won't change while mine will, and I'll feel resentment. Answer three is having kids is so financially straining, and I'm worried About how that will affect me mentally, especially because money is already a stress for me as I'm not making very good money.

[A]

The partner answer is a massive one for me. And you know, I completely empathize with this woman and that position because I think one quote that I was told once by someone was what you tolerate from your partner, your children will inherit. And I have anecdotally heard a lot of women say, oh, you know, he'll cut that out once we have kids or he'll grow out of that. I feel very passionately now through my own lived experiences that assuming that a man will grow out of behaviour or grow into being the man that I'm sure very convincingly they tell you they want to be is not something personally I'm willing to roll the dice on. And I have come from divorced parents and I think that the man that you pick to have children with do not pick a man because you want to have children. Yeah, pick a man you want to have children with. Like that, that is your partner and that is going to be a parent.

[C]

Say that again, sis. And like that one needs to be heard in the back.

[A]

So choose wisely because even if that relationship doesn't work for the two of you, is that a person who will be someone that you wish to co parent with? Yeah, I think that is a really important reality. Like is that someone that is going to respect you and that relationship enough regardless of your marital or relationship romantic status?

[B]

I think a lot of women based on their age may fall into this, I guess you could say, trap of staying with that person because their desire for having a family is so enormous that they are like, oh, okay, they said I will, yeah, I will stay because I want children.

[A]

Yeah. And a child doesn't get to choose a parent.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But a parent chooses a partner. So choose wisely. Okay, so our next one is about the ever evolving list that might exist of reasons not to have children.

[B]

Have you guys tick tock?

[A]

Yes. Yes, you've seen it. Yes, you've both seen it. So look, some of our listeners have likely seen it as well, but there is a woman with a list on TikTok, an ever evolving list, might I add, of reasons not to have children. Women's shared worries about the responsibilities and impacts of having children can often be front and centre within these conversations. What is or would be your biggest worry about having a child? Rapid fire. You're having one. So what's your biggest worry?

[C]

Oh my God, I hate to say this out loud. They're gonna really be a mini me. And that terrifies the living daylights out of me.

[A]

You're deadlocking that window.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Jode to be very vulnerable and transparent. My biggest fear is that I won't enjoy it.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you for being that vulnerable. That's, you know, a really honest one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And an important one. So we've selected some of the answers from our listeners as well. An eventual separation with the child's father. I don't foresee this happening, but it's a reality many people face. Another was finances. Postnatal depression or feeling lonely once my partner goes back to work managing kids, not sleeping. Another said, the future of civilization. Exclamation mark, exclamation mark. I think AI tech are moving in a dark direction and I do fear what my child's future will look like. And another said, it changes everything and I love my life at the moment. Overall, a lot of people had concerns relating to finances, how becoming a mother would impact their lifestyle, how their relationship could change, and whether their partner would help share the load. Fears about the state of the world. Nai. And what the future will look like and the loss of identity that can come from motherhood.

[B]

I related to that last one the most.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, it changes everything. And I love my life at the moment. And I think that's. That really sums it up for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I don't want that to change.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if we're allowed to talk about what we're going to talk about on Stylish with Girlfriends over a glass of wine before we record it. But I often do talk about. Because why not open it up to the flooring? They listen, and I like hearing their opinion. They're smart women. We were having a really interesting discussion, ironically, with a platonic male friend of mine who is a straight male who's single. And I asked him candidly, you know, do you have any friends who don't want children? And have verbalized that? And he's like, not that I can think of. And I have multiple friends who openly do not want children and they love their lives and they are so happy to say why they don't want to have children. But interestingly, a girlfriend of mine who is very sure about not having children said, well, you have said to me, are you sure? And I know that came from a loving place because of your experience and going, you don't wanna do the insurance policies. There's something you've maybe thought about freezing your eggs. And she said, and hilariously, I just can't imagine you ever sitting next to a friend trying to have a baby and saying, are you sure?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I thought that was a really honest discussion for us to have and a really reflective moment for me because that came from such a place of love for her that I just wanted to make sure she was really sure. But I'd also never say to a friend trying to have a baby, you sure?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And the reason I bring up that conversation with my male friend was that he hasn't had these conversations with his male friends. Either they don't exist or they don't have the conversation. One of those things could be true. But also, I've never heard men asking each other if they're sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think if a man who ran a successful business said he didn't want to have children, he would be questioned on why or if he was sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I resonate with this a lot because I feel like I've seen it firsthand in my friendship group that I wish a lot of my girlfriends actually had those conversations. I think, you know, when you get to your 30s, 30s, mid-30s, people have this ticking time bomb on their head. And some of my girlfriends did have kids really young. And often the dad ends up going back to work, the mum's at home raising the kids, and often she can be in the trenches alone, and it's such a lonely place. And it doesn't mean that the dad's not a good parent, but that's kind of that role that they set out for themselves. And I'm having some really real conversations with a few of my girlfriends at the moment who, you know, might be onto child number two or three now and just feel incredibly alone, and they're like, fuck, I wish I had, like, more transparency.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I wish I had that conversation. I wish we even put a plan in place. It's so important, I think, to actually be able to have those conversations.

[A]

Totally. And the permanency of the decision not to have children is the same as the permanency to have them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not a lot of women are saying, did I do it right? Or I regret having children. And probably because there's humans in the world that exist, and the guilt that I imagine comes with that is immense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I can only imagine that's a deep assumption there. But, you know, there are women that would regret the choices they've made, whether that be the number of children, the age they had them having them at all.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This is such a divisive conversation. And there's so much opinion and opinion from females, ironically, of each other. And it's like women with children versus without children. And it's like this heated debate against them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Someone not wanting children is not an offence to someone with them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And vice versa.

[B]

Number nine, how deeply does finding the right partner factor into your decision to have children when deciding whether or not they want to have children? For many women, finding the right partner is a huge consideration, which I would agree with. For some women, finding a partner to have children with is so important that it changes the way that they date. We asked you, our listeners, and for an overwhelming majority, finding the right partner is imperative. And they wouldn't consider having a child without that. That was 74.7%. This was followed by it's pretty important. 20.1%. It's not a consideration because I'd happily be a solo parent at 3% and it's neutral at 2.2%. Mads, you've mentioned that you would have a child on your own, which I deeply respect. I really, really respect women who maybe want to have a family, have not been in a position where they've met the right person or have gone through a breakup or a divorce or separation, whatever it might be. They're in a circumstance where they want a child and they don't have that partner to have a child with. And I really, really respect the desire for that.

[A]

Yeah. I think as well, I had a pretty traumatic relationship breakdown. And I had my life. You know, my life significantly changed due to decisions that weren't my own.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't ever want to rely on a man. I feel really firmly about that after that experience. I don't think I ever did rely on him. But I think there were parts of my life that I formed or changed to suit him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for me, you know, I even that sentence, doing it alone. I don't feel like I would be doing it alone because I have the most incredible village around me. I think I have more love to show people now, post that experience than I did when I was with my ex. Because I feel like so much of me was just pushed down and I, like, conformed to be something. I've got so much love to give. I'm like, I really feel like I could sit here and I got really emotional. I didn't let my girlfriend see it. Cause I was a big, tough girl. But we were having a wine and my girlfriend Ella just turned around and went, you would just be the most incredible mother. Like, oh, my God, of course you could do this by yourself. You've done everything else you could need to do by yourself. And I was like, you know, I can, but I won't. I won't ever be alone if I choose to do that.

[C]

Even saying how you are with George, like, I'm just like you.

[B]

He is her son.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I birthed me, so what do you think? He's my firstborn.

[A]

I don't know why they don't look more like USA Looks identical. George does have long locks.

[C]

There we go.

[A]

Sorry. I mean, you've mentioned how James has been such a rock and, you know, seeing him be your strength and stay during really tough times. How do you feel like knowing that you wanted to have a family and having those family values? How did you feel like picking James and finding James? Like, where did that factor in? You found him in the club.

[C]

Long story, but I. I don't know what it was about him, but I was so used to dating bad boys that when he came along, he was the complete opposite. So we were friends before lovers. And getting to know him, getting to know the man that he is, even back then when we were so young, he was everything that I hadn't dated before. And it was actually my best friend Jules, who was like, this is the guy for you. Like, I know you're gonna marry this man. And I was like, you crazy? Like, there needs to be some spice in our relationship or something to, like, you know, change it up.

[B]

You're the spice.

[A]

Put it in your red chilli curry. Like, don't ask for it in the relationship.

[C]

But honestly, it's just now, like, he is my person, and I know he is my person. We have been on such a ride together, and our journey's not over yet. And it's like, I just feel immensely grateful that he's stuck by me. We have gone. We've weathered the storm together. Cause it's been a fucking turbulent storm. And I could not think, honestly, of a better person to be on this journey with. Like, he's going to be the best and the hottest baby daddy.

[A]

Jo, knowing that there's still a question mark for you whether you do or don't want to have children. Has there still been a consideration of what Adrian as a partner would be like? As Adrian as a parent?

[B]

I've never had any questions about that. That's always something I've known, like, since I first met him. Like, he would just be such a good parent. And honestly, I think if we do decide to have children, he will probably be the Primary parent because he works four days on, four days off. So he has a lot more downtime than I do. I'm pretty much working seven days. So I think that he will probably default to that. And I think he would really enjoy that. Maybe more than that.

[C]

I think he'd thrive, I think, honestly, like his best role yet.

[B]

Yeah. So I've never questioned that. But I do really think that it's incredibly important to pick the right person. As you said before, that is one of the most important decisions that you make. And not even if you want to have children. It's just to have a partner by your side and someone that genuinely loves you. Because I feel like I see these tiktoks all the time and I'm just like, oh, my God, that man just like hates you. Like, you know, it's just terrible the way that some men behave in relationships and. Yeah. I just hate to say it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there's a reason it's called partner, not parent. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And to be clear, I would like to find a partner to do it with. I feel like I really did the. Yeah, I'm going to do it on my own. I ideally won't have to be a solo artist.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Love to not be Destiny's Child. What's a duo? Come back to me on that one. I can't think of what I'm going to start. Charli XCX and Troye Sivan.

[B]

I think if you are choosing to have a family with a partner, selecting that partner is very important to kind of like include those people that do want to do it solo. We're looking at this from the lens of, you know, you're selecting a partner.

[C]

For that when you go on dates now, ask them what I want to be in the. In the trenches with you.

[B]

Yeah. It's hard to know that until you're a little while in.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like on the first date, I can't really catch it.

[B]

Little deep, little deep. Yeah.

[C]

Clearly I'm not going dating anytime soon.

[A]

You can fill in for me anytime you like. Maybe you can pre vet. Maybe I should take you two on date one and then we're like, you go yay or nay. Jo, I wouldn't at all be surprised if you've actually been hiding in a tree at any of my dates. She's so invested. God bless her. Lucky last is if you've decided not to have children, please share your reasons why. And much like we have all sat here and been vulnerable, thank you for sitting behind your phones and laptops for sharing these with us. We've picked up a couple of answers from you, our lovely listeners who answered the survey, just to kind of sense a couple of themes that were coming through and I've got a couple to read out for you here now, so bear with me. The first was it was something I thought I always wanted when I was younger and then when I reached 30, that I would be ready for. The closer I came to this age, the more I realised I didn't want them and understood that I had a choice. Something I never really considered, which sounds strange in hindsight. I'm 35 now and am more certain every single day. Our second answer was Fertility was challenging. I didn't want to spend the money on IVF knowing it's not a sure thing. Plus the study of postnatal depression in IVF patients. Our third was I don't enjoy the company of children that much. I don't like what it seems to do to romantic relationships. It completely changes your lifestyle and finances. And lastly, but importantly, I don't believe the world is a good enough place for me to feel comfortable about a child's future. Some pretty heavy ones in there. I don't know about you guys, but do you have any friends who are certain they don't want children?

[B]

No.

[C]

No.

[A]

Oh. For those of you who might not be as lucky as me to have a friend who is certain they don't want a child, we actually reached out to Danny Duncan, who's a New Zealand content creator who's child free by choice.

[B]

I love Danny. I followed her for a long time.

[A]

Me too. Preach Dani and she centers a lot of her content around showing women what a child free life can look like. She told us. I had never considered the choice not to have children until I reached my 30s. I'd always assumed I would at some stage, but with the pressure of time, I started to consider the realities of actually becoming a mum and realised it wasn't something I'd ever actually wanted to do. Rather, it was something I'd been conditioned to believe was inevitable. I'm now incredibly happy with the life I've chosen for myself. The hardest part is the way people perceive child free people to be naturally. Because I post about my life choice online, I get trolled a lot. Everything from I'm going to be lonely to my life not being worth anything to being told I'll be eaten by my cats when I die. But I'm really proud to represent a growing community of women who are making the choice that's right for them. And at the end of the day, that's all I want for women to know. There is a choice. And whether you choose to become a mum or you choose not to, each life is beautiful and fulfilling.

[B]

I see how much hate Dani gets on her posts, which is just bizarre. Like, it's insane. I just look at the opposite of that, and it's like a woman saying, I really want to have a family. I want to have seven kids. Like, no one would ever hate on a woman for that, but because she said, I actually don't want that.

[A]

They're like, boo, boo. Or someone sharing. Like, I'm so happy I'm pregnant with my second child. No one would be like, you are ruining our environment. Like, you are ruining our world.

[C]

It's actually, like, it's no one's business but our own.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just fascinating to me. I mean, like, the amount of times people have said to me, but if you don't have kids, who will look after you? Oh, I'm like, someone in a nursing home who will also look after you. Because if you think that your kids are gonna be carers, also, if you're having children to breed a carer girl, come on. Yeah, you can't win. I was very open about my fertility journey when I was younger, and there was a little bit in the media about it, and probably the only time in my life I'll ever read commentary online probably was enough to stop me. After that, people would be like, you're so selfish, spending all this money on IVF when there's unwanted children who need to be, like, you know, adopted. It's. You really can't win. You do fertility. You're selfish because you're investing in vanity and having, you know, a biological child when there's, you know, children who need to be fostered and adopted. Like, you know, you have too many kids, it's bad for the environment. You have no kids, and you're a witch, and you're gonna get eaten by your cats. Like, who is winning here?

[B]

Yeah, no one.

[A]

And the worst part is most of the commentary comes from either women or sad, lonely men in the corners of the Internet.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I think it's so important that, you know, we have been so conditioned to think that motherhood is the ultimate source of fulfillment, but fulfillment looks different for everyone.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

And it's like that what fills someone's cup might not fill someone else's. And it's just wild to actually put that pressure on people and women in general in this Day and age. Like it honestly doesn't make sense to me.

[B]

I don't think society is in a place yet where they're ready to accept in general that a woman can decide and wholeheartedly make that decision and not back out of it. That they don't want to have children. They're just not. We're not in that place yet. Maybe eventually we will be, but it's just. Yeah, there's still a lot of people hating on it.

[C]

It's a sad truth.

[A]

Perfectly articulated, though, Jo. I think the fear is that women can make decisions now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Decisions to be financially sound and, you know, dependent only on themselves. That they don't need to date a man or to date down.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So that they can just have someone. We're capable of being alone. We're capable of being married. We're capable of choosing to have a family. We're capable of choosing not to as well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think society gets really uncomfortable when women hold that power. And there are very few times we do, but we sure as shit do in this case.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

On that note.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That is all for this week's episode of Stylish.

[B]

It's a long one.

[A]

It was a very long one. And I want to say thank you to anyone who listened, who, you know, came. And maybe this is something that makes you anxious or is something you've been through and you listen to hesitantly or that maybe there were parts that you had to pause and have a little minute to yourself or if this has stirred up any feelings for you. We just really want to say thank you for joining us for such a personal episode. I want to also personally thank you both, Arnica, Joshy Smith and Joanna Fleming. I always say your feelings. And Sullivan thoughts, Sullivan thought my new surname. Thank you just both so much for being so vulnerable. I think both really important, special conversations for very good different reasons. And thanks for. I was going to say bringing it to table time, but we don't really have a table for bringing it to your chairs. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at Stylish Pod. We want to thank as well our shameless media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emmerburg, who went to all the trouble of doing the survey and helping us put this episode to together. We'll be right back to regular programming next Wednesday. See you then.

[C]

Bye bye. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land.

[B]

Always was, always will be aboriginal land.

[A]

Hello, everyone. It's Jamie Lang here. Now. Can I just grab you for just one second to tell you about my podcast, Great Company? It's out every Wednesday, and I'm joined.

[C]

By someone I really admire for a great conversation.

[A]

It's a space to share, to be.

[C]

Inspired, to learn, to be moved, even laugh.

[A]

There are so many things that I get from it, and there are no gimmicks. It's just me, great guests, and you.

[C]

You are the most important person.

[A]

You, the listener.

[C]

Listen and subscribe to Great Company with me, Jamie Lang. New episodes out every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts.