Shay Mitchell’s skincare line is…for kids?

Summary

Style-ish Podcast – Episode Summary

Podcast: Style-ish
Host: Shameless Media
Episode: Shay Mitchell’s Skincare Line is…for Kids?
Date: November 11, 2025
Hosts: Madison Sullivan Thorpe (Mads), Joanna Fleming (Jo), guest cohost Zara McDonald (Zazie)

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Episode Overview

This lively episode of Style-ish delves into the intersection of fashion, business, and beauty, focusing on trending and at times controversial topics. The main stories explored: Shay Mitchell’s newly launched skincare line for children and the intense criticism faced by female founders when launching products, as illustrated by The Girls Bathroom podcast hosts. The episode closes with a relatable discussion: is modern life making everyone a bad texter?

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Warm-up & Personal Swaps (00:19 – 08:57)

Hosts Share Weekly Product and Lifestyle “Swaps”

• Zara McDonald:

  • Huda Beauty Lip Stain: Recently started using this thanks to Melbourne influencer Izzy Armitage.
    • “I saw Izzy Armitage post this... and when she used the Huda Beauty lip stain I was like, that looks like a product for me.” (02:09)
    • Reports it lasts about two hours, perfect for recording and provides staying power without being too permanent.
  • Where to buy: While often sold out at Sephora, Zara found hers on Adore Beauty (03:08).

• Madison Sullivan Thorpe:

  • Mechamax Complexion Buffing Brush: Recommended for its durability and affordability ($22), as seen on Dua Lipa’s socials (03:16).
  • Quality Time with Mum: Emphasizes the value of meaningful, unrushed time with loved ones, specifically her mum, referencing a recent city outing as particularly special.
    • “In my diary it looks like I give her time, but I don’t think I’ve been giving her the best time.” (04:13)
    • Reframes the idea of “girlhood” as intergenerational bonding.

• Joanna Fleming:

  • Shoe-wearing Tips: Shares practical advice for breaking in synthetic and leather shoes for comfort—using hairdryers and Ziploc bag water freezing tricks. (05:08 – 06:43)
    • “If they’re leather shoes, you can fill up little Ziploc bags with water, put the water bags inside the shoe and then put them in the freezer.” (06:28)
  • Blister Band-Aids: Recommends hydrocolloid patches for their superior protection and adhesion compared to standard band-aids. (07:47)

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2. Main Story: Shay Mitchell’s Skincare Line for Children (09:06 – 18:45)

Background & Launch Details

• Rinny: New brand by Shay Mitchell, a skincare line “engineered with kids in mind,” first launching aloe vera sheet masks with fun animal faces (dog, panda, unicorn).
• The name “Rinny” is the Korean translation of “children.” (09:42)
• Shay’s messaging: Skincare framed as self-care and fun for kids.

Hosts’ Analysis & Sentiment

• Zara's Honest Take:
  • Calls the venture “greed” (11:25). Notes Shay already has a wildly successful luggage brand (“over 200 million US in revenue”).
  • Questions the necessity and authenticity of launching another, potentially opportunistic, venture.
    • “Do we need this in your career? Do we need this generally?” (12:02)
• Madison:
  • Wonders if this move discredits Shay as an entrepreneur, shifting from true innovation to opportunism (12:23).
• Joanna:
  • Reports universal negative online reactions, likening Shay to “the final boss of capitalism” for targeting children with beauty marketing. (12:48)
  • Discusses the cultural unease of marketing beauty and self-care to children, especially young girls.
• Nuanced Challenge:
  • Acknowledges that young children are already engaging with mainstream skincare (e.g., Drunk Elephant, Glow Recipe); some argue safer, child-targeted versions could make sense (13:27).
  • However, default sentiment is discomfort and concern over instilling beauty anxieties in very young children.

Language & Positioning Critique

• “Self-care” Messaging:
  • Zara points out the absurdity of language—children’s lives are already filled with being cared for.
    • “All kids do...is be cared for. The idea that a child needs self care, like, it is laughable.” (14:19)
  • Critiques the adultification of product language and the lack of nuanced adaptation for the audience.
• “Engineered” & “Non-toxic” Language:
  • Madison and Jo both challenge the overblown, pseudo-scientific branding:
    • “The wording ‘engineered’ pisses me the fuck off...since when are we engineering an aloe vera sheet mask?” (18:21)
  • Jo references Charlotte Parlor’s critique that “non-toxic/clean” language is a “gateway drug into much more conspiratorial thinking,” especially when unregulated and targeted at kids (16:44).

Where Hosts Land

• All three agree the concept is tone-deaf, unnecessary, and perhaps harmful, with no redeeming case found for the need to market sheet masks to preschoolers (“I just can’t...a mirror for a three-year-old should be, these are your eyes, this is your nose, this is your mouth. Not...this aloe vera is going to hydrate, nourish and rejuvenate. Like, come on.” – Madison, 18:03).

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3. Are We Making It Impossible For Female Founders? (18:45 – 35:04)

Case Study: The Girls Bathroom “Rooms” Launch

• UK podcast hosts Sophia and Chinzia launched a lifestyle brand (“Rooms”) with premium-priced items: $220 robe, $120 candle, $90 slippers—triggering backlash over “expensive and out of touch” pricing, especially on TikTok (19:46).
• TikTok by Grace Beverley: Critiques the double standard faced by female founders—male entrepreneurs aren’t dragged like this for high prices. (20:09)

Discussion and Reflection

• Hosts Contrast This With the Shay Mitchell Story:

  • Zara: “The conversation we’re about to have is not about whether female founders are beyond criticism...but are there ways that we beat things up from female-led businesses that we would never beat up from male-led businesses?” (21:32)
  • All agree, were a man to launch children’s skincare, it would also be rightly ridiculed; however, the pricing backlash for women feels unique.

• On Pricing and Consumer Complaints:

  • Madison: “Not everything is created for you...there would have always been something for someone to complain about...someone would have been angry about their lack of sustainability...no one can get it right, especially not female founders.” (22:27 – 24:24)
  • Jo: Echoes the concept of “what about me-ism”: “It’s like, ‘Oh, well, if I can’t have that, well, there’s something wrong with it then.’” (24:24)
  • Zara: “No one is holding your bank card forcing you to tap...they can price it however the fuck they want because it’s their brand.” (25:03)

The “Impossible” Standard Female Founders Face

• Launching in the Spotlight:

  • Female founders feel pressured to only release “fully baked” (near-perfect) products, unlike men who can “build the plane while flying it.” (26:47)
  • Madison, from business and marketing, notes that women only launch when “99.99% there” whereas men assume “we’ll figure it out as we go.” (27:09)
  • Tension between accessibility, profitability, and public expectations.

• On Competition and Criticism:

  • Demand for instant “sell outs” as a metric of success, which can be gamed via small stock units—many consumers don’t recognize this (29:25).
  • “If it had sold out in half an hour, people would have been furious." (29:47)
  • Zara: “I’m sure if there’s something else we do...people came for us straight away.” (32:31)
  • Madison expresses personal anxiety: “I am petrified to put a product out with a price point and people go, how dare you? You have excluded me...” (27:09)

• Notable Quotes:

  • “It is really cool to try, but now I’m like, all right, we’re just gonna put the chips on the table and go.” – Madison (33:39)
  • “Rarely does a man get on TikTok and break down his pricing strategy...I had this exact conversation with a very successful female founder...are you prepared for people to question you and interrogate you?” – Madison (31:15)

• Influencer Brands:

  • Jo says she’ll “never do a skincare brand,” only perhaps a collaboration, reflecting how fraught the space is for new founders. (34:25)

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4. Is Being Constantly Contactable Making Us All Bad Texters? (36:57 – 46:54)

Article Prompt

• Vogue’s Nina Miyashida explores “contactability fatigue”—the struggle & guilt of keeping up with endless digital comms.

Hosts' Reflections

• Mixed Skills:

  • Zara thinks she’s becoming worse at timely replies; Jo’s good at texts but lets emails slide for weeks; Madison divides attention between work and friends, prioritizes close contacts (37:26 – 40:16).

• Technical & Emotional Tactics:

  • Tricks: marking messages as unread (swipe right on iPhone!), but sometimes messages get lost anyway (39:09).
  • Desire for two phones—work and personal—to reduce mental load and make boundaries. (40:48)

• Generational Shifts:

  • Jo reflects: “We're the last generation to have not grown up totally contactable...I don’t know that our brains fully adapted to that.” (42:01)

• Texting Etiquette:

  • Response time expectations spike when group plans are being made. “We’re playing tennis now!” (43:09)
  • If someone in a group chat doesn’t reply instantly when planning, the rest move forward anyway—“Sorry, you’re out!” (43:59)
  • “If someone doesn’t respond to me, my preeminent feeling is relief...because thank god it wasn’t me.” – Zara (42:42)

• Vacation Boundaries:

  • All agree: on holidays, it’s healthy and right to cocoon and not check in (44:34).
  • But sometimes friends expect continued texting even while away! (46:10)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Kids’ Skincare:
  • “The idea that a child needs self care, like, it is laughable.” – Zara (14:19)
  • “This is all wrong and we are putting beauty anxiety on children when it really shouldn’t be developing...” – Madison (13:27)
• On Female Founders:
  • “Not everything is created for you...no one can get it right, especially not female founders.” – Madison (24:24)
  • “We are so annoyed when we think influencers do ‘nothing’...but make it absolutely impossible for an influencer who wants to go out and build a business.” – Zara paraphrasing Grace Beverley (25:16)
  • “Rarely does a man get on Instagram or TikTok...breaking down his pricing structure.” – Madison (31:15)
• Texting:
  • “There are so few places you can be invisible anymore.” – Zara (39:53)
  • “We can’t even be invisible on your Sunday walk...because I keep bumping into you.” – Jo (40:01)
  • “We're the last generation...I don’t know that our brains fully adapted to that.” – Jo (42:01)
  • “On holidays...I just cocoon myself from everything to get my sanity back.” – Zara (44:34)

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Important Timestamps

• Warm-up banter, swaps: 00:19 – 08:57
• Blister Band-Aid & shoe hacks: 06:43 – 08:57
• Shay Mitchell’s “Rinny” discussion: 09:06 – 18:45
• Female founders critique (Rooms): 18:45 – 35:04
• Modern texting woes (“contactability fatigue”): 36:57 – 46:54

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Tone & Style

Conversational, sharp, self-aware and often humorous. The hosts bounce off each other with warmth (and a few lollies—literally and metaphorically). They’re unafraid to voice cynicism, check their own biases, and dig into meaningful cultural conversations, keeping it engaging for the business-minded and beauty-curious alike.

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In summary:
The episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the tensions at the intersection of beauty trends, female entrepreneurship, and modern social connection—with plenty of wit and honesty from the Style-ish team.

Transcript

[A]

Shameless Media.

[B]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Goto. They simplified skincare. Now it's makeup's turn.

[A]

This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, lifestyle and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe. I am joined by my co host, Joanna Fleming. Arnica is still enjoying Europe, the longest year of holiday.

[C]

Europe holidays.

[A]

And you just got a teaser of who our third co host is. It is not Rhiannon Joyce this week. It is co founder of shameless media, Zara McDonald.

[C]

Hello, Mads. Hello, Jo.

[B]

Aren't we lucky to have you, Zazie?

[C]

No.

[B]

No.

[C]

Aren't I lucky to be here with you two? Thanks for having me.

[A]

You're allowed in here anytime. This is your house.

[C]

Well, then pass me the lollies. Hurry up.

[A]

You actually want the lollies?

[C]

I. Oh, my God, guys, you don't know.

[A]

Horribly uncoordinated. Zara was just laughing, saying that she records Shameless in the morning, and so she's tickled pink to be in here with us having lollies because can't really open up gummy bears at 8:30am it doesn't feel right.

[C]

I'm not going to shame anyone for doing it, but it doesn't feel as right to sit around and record with gummy bears at 8:30 in the morning. So I feel very lucky to be here at like 4pm with my lollies. Yeah, our lollies.

[A]

Sorry, you said what you said.

[C]

I said what I said.

[B]

All right, well, today we are covering a very current story at the moment, which you might be seeing on Social Zyra's drawn. I'm just gonna put them to the side.

[C]

They're gonna make too much noise.

[B]

We're talking about Shay Mitchell's new skincare business, which has been made for children. And we're questioning are we making it impossible for female founders to thrive and whether being constantly contactable is making us all bad texters. But first, what do we each want to swap in this week?

[A]

You go. You're our special guest.

[B]

Yeah, guys.

[C]

Okay. This is so kind. I have been using over the last few weeks the Hu Beauty lip stain. Have we heard about this?

[B]

How did you get it?

[C]

Is it sold out?

[A]

Like, I can't get it anywhere every single day.

[C]

It's not me doing the outwards. Like what? Like a tyrant. Because what happened was I saw Izzy Armitage post this. The Melbourne influencer Izzy Armitage post a video on her lip duo or quintuple of products, and when she used the Huda Beauty lip stain. I was like, that looks like a product for me because every lip liner I ever use just comes off in two seconds. Yeah, but I don't want a lip stain that lasts all day like that sometimes.

[B]

I was gonna say, can I suggest lip blushing? But obviously that's not gonna work for you.

[C]

I've been thinking about it, but then I watched your review and your pain threshold seems higher than mine.

[B]

Nah, you'd be fine.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You could definitely do it.

[C]

Believe in you that in my back pocket, the lip blushing. But this lip stain, in the meantime, it lasts probably two hours, so. Perfect for someone like me who records a lot. And truthfully, the hopefully, understandably vain part of me would like my lip gloss to stay on the entire time. Yeah, perfect. I really recommend it. I feel like now this is an unhealth, helpful recommendation because I didn't realize it was hard to get hands on.

[A]

Well, every Sephora I've gone into, it seems to be gone, so maybe we have Izzy Armitage to thank.

[C]

I think so. Definitely. I did get it from Adore Beauty, I think. Oh, if that's helpful.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, that's a lot more helpful. Thank you.

[C]

You can do that. What are you swapping in?

[A]

Do you know what? I was going to swap a product. I still will. It's the Mechamax Complexion Buffing Brush, which is great. It's like $22. Dua Lipa just posted about it. It's awesome. I went to Maker and picked up like my third one. They last like a year. And I'm like, that's a good innings for Singular Brush. But my real swap is that I actually went into Mecca with my mum last night and I said to Lucy off mic just before we got in, I realized I've spent a lot of time with Mum, but I haven't really spent time with Mum. Like, we get dinner ideally once a week or once a fortnight, and it's very transient. It's like, we've got an hour. It's quick. But we went in and she's like, I really want to try that eyeliner. You swapped the Charlotte Tilbury one. And I've been watching all these tutorials. Can you show me how to contour when we get back? And I really wanna go into Henny and try on the Valentina jeans. So maybe for Christmas, instead of buying me something, we could go and do that together as an activity. I actually got in the car and left. We had a staycay in the city and I got in the car and I actually cried because I just realized she's my favourite person in the whole world. And in my diary it looks like I give her time, but I don't think I've been giving her the best time. If she's asking me if I can show her things from the swap.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

She also low key thinks that Joe and Annika are her new undiscovered best friends. They just don't know it yet.

[C]

That's what my mom thinks about you. Listens to every episode as well. That's so special. So going to Mecca, going shopping together.

[A]

Yeah. And just those little things where, like your parents don't know it's girlhood for them too. And it might not be your mom, it might be your older sister or a grandma or a cousin. It's just that special person in your life. But there's things she wants to learn that I know and I'm like, it's just that my swap is just go and do something they love to do or that you think that they might love that you do or that you have like just some girlhood time. I loved it.

[B]

Quality time. That's a good tip.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, so go get the Mechamax brush and go hang out with your mum.

[B]

Jo, My tip is to wear in your shoes because I had a very good experience with this recently. I had my hens the other weekend and I got my hens shoes on Tuesday. So I had ordered them, they arrived on the Tuesday. I had to pay $40 for shipping from ASOS for them to arrive in time. Let's not talk about that. But I got them on the Tuesday. I said to myself, you're going to have to wear these in otherwise they are going to hurt. Like, I put them on for the first time. I was like, oh, I don't know if I can do a full day in these. I put some socks on. I wore them around the house for three days, like periodically putting the hair dryer on my feet while I had the socks in there. And they softened up so nicely. And these are synthetic shoes, they're not leather shoes. They're made of like satin and they probably have like a synthetic upper or something like that. But they stretched out really nicely that I did not get a single blister. I didn't feel a single rub on the day of my hens. And they lasted me for 12 hours.

[A]

I love that. Also, why the hair dryer? Because I've never heard that tip.

[B]

I think it just warms up the fabric and it just makes them stretch out. A lot quicker because I think the warmth of your foot stretches them out and like the movement in them. But I would just heat them up periodically throughout the day. I wore them around the house the entire three days.

[C]

God, you're good. Yeah, like, you're so good at this shit.

[A]

I know.

[B]

If they're leather shoes though, you can fill up little Ziploc bags with water, put the water bags inside the shoe and then put them in the freezer. And the expansion of the water will stretch the shoe out for you. And then you just take it out the next day and they're already stretched out.

[C]

I've seen that on TikTok and I have like a pair of loafers that I've been trying to break in, I think for three winters now, which is probably three too many winters.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe too far gone.

[C]

Well, do you? I was gonna be like, I don't wanna ruin the loafer by putting it in the freezer, but at this point maybe. Any hope it would be good.

[B]

So I actually posted about how I was wearing them in and I had a few different people reply to my stories and be like, you do realize that you can go to a shoe person and they'll professionally stretch them out for you. I didn't know that there's like a machine that they use, but they stretch out.

[C]

Of course there is.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I've never thought about, but I think.

[B]

This is like an old school thing. You know, there's not many shoe people around that do like repairs and things like that. You might find them in the local, like stripper shops.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But yeah, they do that. So if maybe that's your best bet.

[C]

I think that might be.

[B]

I think they might be too far gone for the water trick.

[C]

Can you quickly tell me before we move on about the blister bound aids? Have you already spoken about this on Mike?

[B]

I feel like I have because I got Maddie onto them.

[A]

I think you might have done that in a private text exchange. When I think I swap, I thought.

[B]

I did them as a swap. Maybe I didn't.

[A]

I've done too many episodes.

[C]

It doesn't matter because I need to hear this again because I am the queen of blistered feet when I wear shoes.

[B]

Same so not hot. Band Aid brand and Compeed brand both do a type of blister patch, which I believe is a hydrocolloid patch that you put over the area. And hydrocolloid is used for like wound healing, but it's also really cushy. So if you just put that on an area where you know, you're going to get a blister that provides a bit more of a barrier than a band aid and they're a bit more adhesive, I would say, than a band aid because the whole thing is an adhesive, not just a little bit of it. Yeah, I'm so, yeah, I think you need them when you're traveling around.

[A]

It's foul when you take one off, though, on a list that, like, disgusting, love.

[C]

I don't care. I don't, I don't care. I can't stand when the band aids that are meant to protect you from the blisters ride.

[B]

And yeah, no, they really don't move.

[A]

This will not betray you in that way.

[B]

Especially for the backs of the feet.

[C]

Yes. That's what I'm, you know what I'm talking about.

[A]

Yeah. I also have it on the, like the bunion. I feel like I caught a bunion from Annika, like now. I like, she spoke about it on like our second ever episode. And now I'm like, I was at the doctor recently and I was like. I think he was like, respectfully, that's for your podiatrist. I was like, okay, cool.

[C]

So much foot chat at the moment on Stylish. Yuck. The audience must be loving her.

[A]

All right, we're going to talk about Shay Mitchell's children's skincare brand next, but that's going to be right after a word from today's sponsor.

[B]

Goto taught us that skincare doesn't have to be complicated or boring. Now it's makeup's turn. We fell in love with their simple routines, effective formulas and, let's be honest, fun product names. Now Goto has just dropped their first limited edition makeup collection, an edit of blushes and highlighters that look like makeup but act like skincare. With formulas that support your skin while giving effortless glow and col color. The new ring light highlighter does just what it says, gives a hydrated, luminous, zoom ready complexion thanks to hyaluronic acid and aloe. And then there's Skincare grade blush. Their matte pop blush blurs and plumps with all star ingredients, squalane, hyaluronic acid and collagen. Whereas the glowy blush is a serumy vibe for a hydrating, plumping finish. This isn't about full face glam. It's about achieving healthy, radiant skin with fuss free formulas that slot into your life easily. We're obsessed and we know you will be too. Thank you so much to Goto for making this a passion sort of stylish possible. So our first headline is do Children Need Skincare? And I'm going to jump in there and say no, but I will give you the background of the story. So, last Thursday, the 6th of November, actress from Pretty Little Liars turned entrepreneur Shay Mitchell launched her new skincare line, Rinny. But what was different about this skincare range to most celebrity brands is that it's a beauty brand that marries gentle skincare and play engineered with kids in mind. And according to an article from Elle, the name itself is the Korean translation of children. So the first product that they've released, or they will be releasing is an aloe vera recovery mask. The masks come in three different sheets, each with a different animal face, one unicorn, one dog and one panda. On an Instagram post, Shay said, kids are naturally curious and instead of ignoring that, we can embrace it with safe, gentle products that parents can trust and sweet moments that bring us closer. Lily twelve Tree from Bareface Media raised an interesting point In a recent TikTok said, what kills me about this is that she's a celebrity that wanted to launch a skincare brand. And it's not hard to take a look around and go, hmm, there's a few too many of those. You know what? There aren't too many of celebrity skincare brands for children, which. There aren't that many celebrity skincare brands for children.

[C]

There's a gap.

[A]

Yeah. Not one that I think needed to be filled, but there is one.

[B]

What are your thoughts around this, Zaz, do you want to go first?

[C]

Yeah, I think for me, the first thing that came to mind, if I'm to be brutally honest about this, when I saw this story, I think the first word that came up in my mind was greed. And I don't want that to sound too savage, but I think I am not opposed to someone launching more than one business if they see a gap, a need that they think they can, you know, fulfill a problem they think they can solve. But Shay Mitchell has a very successful luggage brand. I mean, I think there was an article in Forbes last year that said that that brand was disrupting the entire industry. It is incredibly successful. I also read that last year they were doing over 200 million US in revenue.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So, you know, a brand that they just accelerate and she could focus on for the rest of her life. I think I looked at this and I thought, what else do we need? Like, do you need as a founder? If you've got a really successful career in acting, a really successful career in business, do we need this in your career. Do we need this generally?

[A]

No, I agree. And I also feel like, does this discredit her as an entrepreneur to a degree to go and do something like that? Because for me, I'm like, you've had something so innovative where there wasn't and a consumer, and now you're doing something that feels more opportunistic than innovation. I don't know it. For me, it like kind of takes away a little bit from the first.

[C]

Yeah, I see what you mean.

[B]

I haven't seen a single positive sentiment about this online. Every single video I've seen about this has been absolutely like appalled at this entire concept about children's skincare. People are calling her like the final boss of capitalism. Like, this is just outrageous that she would target children. There is a lot of conversation online around the targeting of children and that that feels kind of wrong to a lot of people. Like, let children grow up without them feeling like they need to buy into beauty, especially girls, because that seems to be what, you know, they've used a lot of little girls in their marketing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you feel the same way about that thought process?

[A]

The part of me that wants to challenge myself is like, children are interacting with skin care anyway. You only have to go into a Mecca, a Priceline, a Sephora, to watch them around the likes of Drunk Elephant and Glow Recipe. And like, I was in a Mecca recently and one of the, you know, lovely shop posts was telling me that a nine year old came in specifically asking for retinol and I'm like, so then part of me is like, maybe these brands that are targeting children are better because, you know, an aloe vera mask has lived for centuries, but at least it's like not unsafe for children's skin. But then, you know, the natural part of me, my gut instinct is just like, this is all wrong and we are putting beauty anxiety on children when it really shouldn't be developing until it developed for us. And even then it was probably too early. Like, I remember wearing mascara to school at like 15, and even then I probably didn't need it. Do you know what I mean?

[C]

I agree. And I think what I found really interesting is in Shay's Instagram post she wrote, rinni isn't about beauty, it's about self care, about teaching our kids that taking care of themselves can be fun, gentle and safe. I would love to spend a moment unpacking that as a sentiment because all kids do between, like, we're talking about three year olds here. Yeah, all they do as they move through the world is be cared for. Like that is the entire job of a parent. That's why parents are so exhausted because all they do is care for somebody else. The idea that a child needs self care, like it is laughable.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like that is the language that we use for 30 year old women. Yeah. That we are selling skincare to three year olds in the same way that we sell it to 30 year old women. And I feel like it says so much to me that we haven't even like I say we, that they haven't even adapted the language. Language here. No, it's not about self care. These kids are not stressed.

[A]

No, no.

[C]

These kids do not need to be self cared. Like that's all, that's their entire existence, their entire life.

[A]

I'm really glad you brought up the languaging because I read an interview that Shay and her co founder did with Elle and the word engineered was used in relation to the products like that the range had been engineered. And again I'm so with you because to me that kind of loaded languaging lends to science backed dermatologically tested skin care. Not a sheet mask that has a panda's cartoon face made for a four year old.

[C]

Yeah, well it's speaking to changing something in the skin rather than fun.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There is children's skincare out there. Like there's a brand called All Kinds which I actually agree with what they do, they do very basic like cleansers, moisturizers, spf. They do a couple of like more specialized products for, you know, maybe problematic skin for kids that are just kind of edging into puberty and maybe experiencing more oiliness and those kinds of things. I agree with what they do and kind of how they market their brand. I don't see a space for a three year old needing a sheet mask. If this was a range that was maybe targeted to those Sephora kids, the ones that are walking in and wanting retinol and it was similar to all kinds where it's just, you know, basic formulas. It's not going to interrupt the skin's barrier, it's not going to cause any irritation, then maybe I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. But I'm just like a single use sheet mask.

[C]

Like what?

[A]

It's like these are the products that we use to unwind after five full on hectic days at work or before we're going to like a wedding. Yeah, like that is when I'm using a sheet mask.

[B]

Yeah, it Feels dystopian to me. I actually saw Charlotte Parlor, who's the founder of US skincare brand, do say in a reel that also the language is kind of problematic that they've used. So she said the non toxic clean language is a gateway drug into much more conspiratorial thinking. And she also said I can tell their regulator is not really involved in the brand or they've completely ignored their advice. Like by the way that they're greenwashing 3 year olds with this like non toxic clean beauty language that is just a completely unregulated term.

[C]

I'm obviously not a parent and so maybe my perspective on this will change in, you know, five to 10 years, whatever it might be. But I really am of the belief that I just don't know if kids should be thinking about themselves at all. Do you know what I mean? The best existence for them is presence.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the more there are brands that are capitalizing on this, them actually thinking about themselves and them actually thinking about their face and them actually thinking about what's going on. It beyond it being a creative pursuit when you're stealing your mum's lipstick and putting it over your face and then the walls beyond that like I just don't know. I'm trying really hard not to jump on an Internet's bandwagon that's fully outraged because I generally try to avoid that but I'm really. I can't quite find the gateway here into the it being redeemable.

[A]

I'm so with you. I wanted to find a loop to thread this through and I just can't because I'm like a mirror for a three year old should be. These are your eyes, this is your nose, this is your mouth. Not okay. And so you know this aloe vera is going to hydrate, nourish and rejuvenate. Like come on.

[B]

Also the wording engineered pisses me the fuck off because when. Since when are we engineering an aloe vera sheet mask? They've existed for literally 30 years. Go into any K beauty store, they've existed the entire time. You're not reinventing something. Don't act like you are.

[A]

No, they're smaller. They've reinvented via campaign and they're getting small people in there.

[C]

You forgot about the bear.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, next headline today is gonna be a funny one. Coming straight out of that. But I am really excited to talk to you both about this. This has been my Roman Empire this week. I am super pumped. This is a headline that's basically the Question of do we make it important possible for female founders? We will spend time on this, we will deep this and also compare it to the last story. So this week, if you missed it, the hosts of the Girls Bathroom, a very big podcast out of the uk, Chinzia and Sophia, launched their lifestyle brand Rooms. Now the collection includes a robe that's $220 AUD, a candle that's 120, a $90 pair of slippers. And it sparked so much conversation online, especially on TikTok who have called the pieces expensive and out of touch. People weren't just criticizing the prices, they were so angry. It's been TikTok after TikTok analyzing every single detail. And so what I found really interesting, our head of podcasts at Shameless Lucy sent me, Grace Beverly, who's also like a multi business entrepreneur in the UK, a TikTok that she made this week saying, what are we doing? Like if we are criticizing the price of a robe for people that who can choose not to buy it, what are we doing and are we making it impossible for founders? I want to play you a snippet of that TikTok before we deep at all might go for just over a minute. So it's generally on the longer side for my self imposed rules, but I think it's all worth it.

[D]

Are we not worried that we are creating a world in which women can't like take any risks or do anything out of their comfort zone, particularly on the Internet or just like try new things? I've been seeing so much in the past few days, particularly about Sapira and Chincia and their new business and basically it seems to me that there is an issue, right? People are perceiving their prices to be too high for their new products. And I don't even necessarily want to get into like the ins and outs of like production and looking at the fact that this is a brand new business. So first of all they're not going to be able to benefit from the economies of scale that bigger businesses do. All the fact that I just sweat in on the site and the dressing gown that's being sold is a 590gsm pure cotton dressing gown from a brand new business. And the candle obviously would have had to be made from a custom mold. Not even gonna go into that stuff. But like it is astounding to me that we have not yet caught on to the fact that we do not treat male business owners like this at all. Like if a male business owner came out with a product that was too expensive it doesn't become like this whole massive moral debate and personal tear down. I think we're doing ourselves like a massive discernment.

[B]

It.

[C]

First question before we get in, what is the difference to you guys between this story and the last one?

[B]

I mean, it's not skincare for a three year old, so I think it's the whole concept around the brand. I just don't agree with Shay's concept of her brand.

[A]

One to me is an informed consumer and one is an uninformed consumer.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I think for me, I'm like the idea and the conversation we're about to have about whether we make it impossible for female founders is not a conversation about whether female founders are like beyond reproach and beyond criticism. That is not what we're talking about. I think what we are talking about here is are there ways that we beat things up from female led businesses that we would never beat up from male led businesses? I do think if a man started a skincare brand for a three year old, we'd probably still find a way to talk about it on this show.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

So long as it still made its.

[A]

Way onto our feeds 1000%. And I would hang him out to dry. Probably even more than I've hung out Shane. To dry.

[C]

You probably would. Okay, so all of that aside of it's sort of like the elephant in the room to start I'm interested in. I think I want to start with Sophia and Ginzia's line and how people came so hard at the prices. Mads, you've worked a lot in consumer goods. I'm really. And in marketing, I'm really interested in this idea of people complaining about price.

[A]

I feel really passionately about this and I'm really conscious that this is probably going to be one of the spiciest things I've spoken about because I just really firmly believe not everything is created for you. And you know, Zara, you own Shameless Media. You have ample data of who our listener is and what they do and what they're willing to spend on things. Right. So I imagine that when you made Shameless Merch different at times because some of that merch is designed for charity, some of it is not. That you are coming at it going, what is the average price point that we feel based on that insight, we would sell our products for.

[C]

Can I actually be honest about that? Yes, if I can. Well, if I can. There's no one else in this room. If you can, which would be like Michelle, that is priced so much lower than it should be particularly the Shop by Shameless Media merch. Those margins are almost too low for us at the moment, and that's what we are doing some really big. Having some really big conversations about, which is, how do we make this viable? Like, if people are desperate for merch, how do we make this something that we can sustain as a business? Because I am so scared about releasing something that people think is. Is too expensive or out of touch. Like, it is incredibly, like, tiny styling, but it's incredibly stressful thing to do. That's why I'm forever impressed by people that go into fashion, because it's a hard thing to crack.

[A]

It's a really hard thing to crack. What I challenge here is there would have always been something for someone to complain about, right? Like, I'm not going to sit here and say, these aren't high price points, right, that's more expensive than a diptyque candle. But for me, they've gone and done this. We have no idea of the minimum order quantities. And as they've said, at scale, that changes price point. You know, if they had have gone and made it with the shittiest, cheapest fabrics and had it at an accessible price point for every single listener, someone would have been angry about their lack of sustainability. Do you know what I mean? I'm so. Yeah, someone. Like, there are so many opinions now. I just feel like no one can get it right, especially not female founders.

[B]

I could not agree with you more, Mads. Like, I hate to just be, you know, a broken record and say exactly the same thing, but. But I think you've spoken about it before on the Shameless podcast around what About Me ism. It's like the bean soup reference of like, well, oh, well, if I can't have that, well, like, there's something wrong with it then. Yeah, it's like, well, it is as Grace said in her video, if they had made it with a cheaper fabric and it was at a more affordable price point, people would be questioning that as well. And she did mention it is a higher quality fabric. They would have had to have that candle mold made to have that. That particular shape. But yeah, I just think it's one of those situations where they can price it however the fuck they want because it's their brand.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. And you do not have to buy into it. That's the thing. Like, no one is like, holding your bank card forcing you to tap. Like, no one's like double tapping that apple with your phone in your face. Face ID.

[A]

Face ID$200 to the road.

[C]

No one is. And I think it's so what Grace's point in this video, there was one that was so bang on, and it was something like, we are so annoyed when we think influencers do, quote, unquote, nothing but create content. We find it lazy. Or we say, oh, they don't work that hard. But we make it absolutely impossible for an influencer who wants to go out and build a business. And Grace talks so much about how when you build, building a business is basically just solving a series of problems that is literally your life all day, every day. Anyone who's ever built anything will know that to be true. It can be a nightmare sometimes because there are constantly things going wrong. To do that in public and to be watched while you're doing that gives no woman, particularly women in the public eye, any incentive to continue to build. I mean, I loved the point that Grace had in this video as well, which was, when are we ever gonna let people just try anymore? Like, it's really cool to try things. It's not cool to, like, take advantage of people or, like, maybe not think through an idea, but it is cool generally to try if you're not hurting anyone. And a fellow founder said to me recently, she said to me about what we do at Shameless Media, you guys don't half bake ideas. You wait till they are fully formed before they launch. It was, like, said as a compliment, but I realized as I was watching this video that we don't have any ability to half bake before we go live, that some businesses have the ability, if there is a male founder attached to them, to sort of build the plane as they fly it. I would like to build this plane as I'm flying it more, but we can't. Yeah.

[A]

It's so interesting you say this because obviously, you know, my career has had interaction with both female and male founders or female and male leadership. And what I have had a clear observation of is that men go, we'll figure it out as we go. And women won't do it until they feel like it is 99.99% there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is, I think, just an innate female thing. And maybe it is because of criticism like this and we can extend it beyond just influences. Like, had we have just made Kim Kardashian stay in her lane as a reality star, we wouldn't have skims. If Hailey Bieber had have just stayed a model, we wouldn't have had road. Like, I'm, you know, Selena Gomez, you know, we Wouldn't have had rare. Like, I can list this out, but why is it that at the largest scale, it's like we're outraged at the start and then we kind of let them go. But I feel like this micro middle level, we are so angry. And I'm trying to build something at the moment. I'm working on that. I've spoken about it. I am petrified to put a product out with a price point and people go, how dare you? You have excluded me. I feel that is an attack on me and I would never want anyone to feel excluded from something that I've done. But businesses aren't made to make $0. They're made to make profit. And you need to build a business that can sustain and grow. I'm talking to the wrong person here. Like you would know this, but.

[C]

But you're talking to the right person. Yeah.

[B]

I would have said five years ago you'd be stupid to start a business if you didn't have some sort of social media following or didn't have a very strategic social media plan. I'm of the opinion now that you shouldn't have a social following and you should still have a significant social plan ahead of you. But I honestly think it just doesn't leave you that room to test and learn. And as a first time business owner, yeah, it's really challenging. Like on the same scale that they're at, where they have one of the biggest, most popular podcasts, they would just like lambs to the slaughter. I hate to use that term, but.

[C]

No, I agree with you. I also saw this TikTok that was asking why after eight hours, eight hours that the collection hadn't sold out. It was like liked by thousands of people. And they were like, this particular creator was like. But so many other influencers. Collections sold out. And they like named the other influencers who sold out. And I really was like, found this fascinating because I'm like, we really are going for anything right now. Because not one of us knows how many units. Units they ordered. Like that selling out doesn't mean much anymore. I thought most of us knew that because you could order three things and say, we've sold out.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's selling out. As a marketing pointer, 1,000%.

[A]

That is a strategy. You can order 100 units or just allow 100 units onto your site that day so that you have the allure of being like sold out in six minutes. Like you can have one thing or a thousand. I'm like, they just bought clearly the amount they thought would cover demand. And it's available because had it have sold out, you would have also been really fucking angry about that.

[C]

If it sold out in half an hour, people would have been furious. But I find this so interesting now that the expectation that when, you know, an influencer or someone in the public eye launches a product that it is a failure if it doesn't sell out in eight hours, like, these are quite absurd expectations or, you know, thoughts to have around what a product should do and how quickly it should be sold. But beyond that, like, I'm not against us having conversations about how something is marketed and whether it was nailing its consumer and all of those kinds of things. But this I found really interesting that it was deemed a quote, unquote, failure from the top because it hadn't sold out in eight hours. And this wasn't a small TikTok.

[A]

This. Yeah, it wasn't a small TikTok. I saw this TikTok as well. I was like, really? How. How do we not realize that this is fine? This just means stock has been allocated accordingly. I've followed this so closely because it scares the living shit out of me. This doesn't make me want to launch anything.

[C]

So let's. Can we talk about this for a second?

[B]

Go for it.

[C]

When you eventually launch your amazing business, have you said what it is?

[A]

No, sorry.

[B]

Imagine that I launch.

[A]

Hasn'T stopped people asking me randomly on the street either.

[C]

Do you feel like you'll need to take people on the journey a bit to explain the why of this is why something costs this much? Like, I feel like a lot of female founders do that. And yes, it solves a problem in the. Like, people, once they get the context, pick at you less. But sometimes it feels annoying that you might have to.

[A]

I'm conflicted really, honestly, because I want to break down that system. Do I think I can do that alone? No, I'm not that naive. As much as I'd love to think I've got that superpower, but rarely does a man get on Instagram or TikTok and create a reel breaking down his pricing structural strategy. I have built a P and L model so that I can wholesale a product, and I have done it so that I can sell direct to consumer surprise. I will make a lot more when I sell directly to a consumer than I make when I sell to a retailer. But I had this exact conversation with a very, very successful female founder recently who was in town and we went and had dinner and she said to me, like, are you prepared for People to question you and interrogate you and whether you deserve to have started a brand and what you know, and how dare you sell it for that? And I'm like, for me, it's not an overly expensive product, but for someone else, it will be. And that scares me.

[C]

Do you know what's really interesting? When we launched Stylish, Michelle and I copped it a lot.

[A]

Really?

[C]

Yeah. Why on TikTok that we thought we could go into fashion as people that have no experience in fashion, how dare we enter that space?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And like, I look back now and I'm like, well, I think we've proven a good formula here. A, we weren't the hosts. You guys are amazing. And be like, this has got pretty good staying power, this killer. Like, I don't really feel like I have to explain it anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But straight away, when we stepped slightly outside our zone.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

People came for us straight away.

[A]

Can I ask you a question?

[C]

You may.

[A]

I mean, that's the whole point of this podcast.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I don't really love that. I had to ask anyway. Do you feel differently now you've come out and said that you will be launching a parenting podcast? Do you feel differently because Michelle is a mother that you don't feel the same anxiety going, what right do we have?

[C]

Well, here's the funny thing. We knew it was gonna be the next pillar before either of us had kids.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Because we knew there was clearly a gap there. We just didn't know what it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Now that Michelle's a parent, she can very confidently say, well, this is very clearly the gap. It was probably arrogant of us from the start to say, parenting is the next pillar, but before we'd even had kids. But I didn't feel embarrassed about that. I was like, I think there's something there. We just don't know what. So do I feel more confident? I think the more we step outside our comfort zone and people see that and it works, the less blowback we get. But I am sure if there's something else we do that makes us. Because I think with the fashion thing, people are like, oh, so they think they're fashion people now.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And there is something embarrassing about that. Like, people are embarrassed on your behalf. Like, oh, my God, I can't believe you think you're a fashion person. So fashion is kind. Fashion and beauty is different.

[A]

Do you know what? It's so interesting? That trying thing you spoke about before, I said at this dinner with this founder who was from overseas, I'm embarrassed to not Try something now. And I think when I was younger, I was more embarrassed to give something and go and fail, and now I'm more embarrassed to not have tried at all. And I think that it is really cool to try, but now I'm like, all right, we're just gonna put the chips on the table and go.

[B]

I'm very excited for you, Mads. I think it's gonna be a very fun step.

[A]

I've had so many roadblocks. I'm gonna be really honest. I thought this would be like a FEB announcement, guys, but it's looking more like a, you know, middle of next year. But we'.

[C]

I think that's the name of the game sometimes, isn't it? It's.

[A]

It's like a house Renault.

[C]

Would you ever launch. Like, how would you feel, Jo, if you ever launched a product?

[A]

I'd buy your skincare.

[B]

I would never do a skincare brand. Just saying. Really? Yeah. Straight out. Never.

[C]

Hot knife.

[B]

Mark my words. Never. I would do a collaboration with an existing brand if I felt there was something missing from their range, like a.

[A]

Tb, like the tbh. Hannah English.

[B]

I would do something like that. I will never have my own skincare range. Although Caroline Hirons did say that and she ended up launching Skin Rock, so you never know. Could change my mind.

[C]

In 10 years, she's gone from never that.

[A]

That coin flipped pretty quick to, oh, well, you know, if l' Oreal did come knocking and had a really bad.

[B]

Check, Elf seemed to have a lot of money as well, so we'll say. Also, I actually did really like those slippers that the girls released the room.

[C]

They looked beautiful.

[B]

Yeah, they're really cute. But anyway, we're going to talk about being a bad texter next, but that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

[A]

I don't know about you, but every year there's always that one person who is impossible to buy for. This year, I'm making it easy on myself and heading straight to Maya. They've got gifting in the bag with something special for everyone. Beauty lovers, tech heads, even those tricky work. Kris Kringles. I actually found the perfect pajama set for my stepsister the other day, and now I'm tempted to keep it for myself. So if you're stuck on ideas Maya's got, you give something special this Christmas and shop now at Maya, the home of gifting. Thank you so much to Maya for making this episode as stylish possible. Our next headline is Is being constantly contactable making us all bad Texters. I am seeing some faces that might indicate that maybe we identify there. So there was a recent article in Vogue that caught our attention last week and was firing off in our Slack chat. Written by Nina Miyashida, the article explored whether the fatigue of being constantly contactable is what's making us all bad texters. So the conversation's been pretty big, both in the article, but on TikTok as well, with both perspectives, the timely texters and also the bad texters. Don't you love that we only fall into one bucket? They were all expressing their point of views and it seems like a lot of us have been struggling to keep on top of texts. In the Vogue article, Nina lays out several different tactics she's tried to become a better texter, like leaving texts unread to remind herself to respond and setting one hour timers every time she gets a new message.

[C]

It's a lot.

[A]

I'd be living in a 24 hour cycle of one hour timers.

[C]

Yeah, I know a lot of getting a lot of texts there popular.

[A]

Do you know what? Unfortunately a lot of my darling friends live overseas, so I wake up to the UK texts and then some of my clients have been in the US and they loved a WhatsApp. Lucy, our head of podcast, also loves a WhatsApp, which is a telltale sign you are from the UK because it seems to be a thing. Let's start. Are you good or bad texters?

[B]

Zara?

[C]

I am an oak. I'm a pretty good texter.

[B]

Yeah, Ish.

[C]

I think I'm getting worse. I actually did have a kind of sidebar conversation with Michelle about this on our Shame More episodes, which is like our subscription arm of Shameless recently because I was having a bit of an existential crisis about what it said about me. If I just became a bad texter, if it was some sort of, I don't know, issue with my identity. I don't know, like, is that, is that bad texter hard to be friends with? I was like really deeping it.

[A]

Yeah, I haven't listened to that episode, but you better believe I'm going to after this. I feel like that's a very interesting hot take. Jo, do you think you're a good texter?

[B]

I think I am a good texter, but I am not very good with other platforms. So like my personal emails can sit there for three to four weeks and I won't get back to someone and that's really bad. I often fall behind on things like my rates that I just leave unread I still leave everything unread. So, like, I know that it's there, but I just don't have the capacity to address it. And I know that's gonna require five minutes of my undivided time that I don't have at that particular point. So then I go through, like, an hour where I'll just go through all of it. But I don't often do that with text, just because I don't think there is a function to make them unread again once you've opened them.

[C]

Is there? I make all my messages unread if I haven't responded to it.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know you could do.

[B]

Can you show me how to do that?

[C]

Yeah, but I don't find it that helpful because then sometimes it gets lost in the river and I just lose the ones that are unread. Anyway, if there was a function on text, and maybe every time I say this on any show, someone's like, absolutely. A way to do that. There was a function where you could mark them unread, and then the ones that are unread stay at the top of your inbox. Because that's what I do with emails, and I find it really hard to miss emails. Then I'd be good.

[B]

Sorry, what do I press?

[C]

So swipe to the side.

[B]

Yeah, there's a bin. And there's the other way.

[C]

Oh, other way. So, Lucy, am I swiping?

[B]

Swipe to the left.

[C]

To the left, guys.

[B]

You swipe to. No, you would swipe right.

[C]

I'll swipe right.

[B]

And there's a little.

[A]

She hasn't been on a hinge for years.

[C]

Guys, I'm actually married.

[B]

Zara, honestly, that should be your swap. That's a bonus swap. I didn't know that that was a thing, because I've always swiped left. Always swiped right. No, left.

[C]

Good, good.

[A]

Oh, my God. Guys, just chuck up the L's and let's be done with it.

[C]

So, I mean, that's one salve for you. Yes.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Oh, okay. Well, now I'm gonna be a bad texter. Cause now that I know I can do that, I don't have to address.

[A]

It at the time.

[C]

Yeah. I just feel like, for me, there are so few places you can be invisible anymore.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You can't even be invisible on your Sunday walk anymore because I keep bumping into you.

[B]

I know. Mads, are you a good texter or bad texter?

[A]

This is going to sound so ruthless. I'm a really great texter. If we're really close.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'm not great if we're not.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I'm just prioritizing those relationships. And to deepen it, I'm much with you. I feel like I'm not showing up as a great friend or I'm not being available to them. And I always want my closest people to feel that. That. But I'm busy. And my phone is also my work phone. So a lot of the time I'm like, juggling between, like, a text from someone that I'm working with or texting, like, in a chat that's like, regarding stylish or like, what time we have to be there and then the next one, I'm like, how's your three week newborn? And can I have another photo? And I'm like, I'm tired and my brain's like, I don't know which text we're sending anymore.

[C]

I think huge problem with this is the fact that we don't all have work phones. And I know that is, like a huge privilege to say we all should have, like, two phones. And I've said this probably for, like, four months now. I was like, I'm gonna work for him. I haven't done it where I would have all my work stuff. Like my. And I would put my social media apps on my work phone because I'd be like, that's work.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because I don't really use social media personally. And everything else that's just for fun is on the fun phone. I just still haven't done it. And every time I talk about this, I'm like, it's a really good idea I should do.

[A]

I like that. Do you know what, though? I think I'm a great caller. You do love a phone call, and.

[B]

You love a voice note as well.

[C]

And you don't love a voice note, Joe.

[B]

No, I do. Yeah. I'm just often on the receiving end of Mads's voice notes and calls, so I know that she prefers that over texting.

[C]

Sometimes with a voice note, though. Like, I also like a voice note. If I'm in a rush, I quickly grab my phone. I'm worse at responding to voice notes.

[B]

Same. Because they disappear.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I need to give it my undivided attention. I can't skim it. I need to lock in. So I let it sit there longer than I want to.

[A]

Do you not have the text version of your voice note? Cause I find I'm often just texting. Reply to the voice note transcript.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes. But sometimes you read that transcript and you're like, I certainly need to listen to this.

[A]

The robot has got this one wrong.

[B]

What I find interesting is that we're like the last generation where we didn't grow up being that contactable. Like it got to, you know, a certain point where we had MSN and we had the home phone and we eventually got mobile phones, you know, in our mid teens or late teens in if, you know, the people listening to this are also in their early 30s. But we're the last generation to have that. And so I don't know that our brains fully adapted to that. Like, I think younger people now may have just an easier way of adopting that into their everyday and just like knowing that that's just part of life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Whereas we didn't have that growing up. So our brains, I don't know if they've caught up.

[A]

Can I ask, do you feel offended if someone doesn't reply to you? Like regardless of your texting style? Does someone's like immediacy?

[C]

I, I would be lying if I said that maybe three or four years ago. I, I would get annoyed about it, get noted about it now. If anything, if I'm totally honest, if someone doesn't respond to me, my preeminent feeling is relief. Not because I don't want to talk to them, but because thank God it wasn't me. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel relief that we are all on this in the same boat here. We're all just like really fucking trying and struggling.

[B]

I've got a shocking memory, so I've just, I'd forget they didn't reply. I'd come back to it three months later and be like, oh, they didn't reply to me.

[A]

The only time I challenge this is if it's someone trying to organize a catch up and not replying immediately. Because I'm like, don't you come and sidebar me and my calendar and time. Sorry, I'm really on a tangent here. But don't sidebar me, demand that. I'm like in front of my computer, which is where I usually. I'm like such a boomer. You know when people like want to make a big purchase on their computer, I want to do my calendar on my computer.

[C]

I love that.

[A]

So I'm there and I'm like, yep, this date, I'm available this date. And then you don't reply. I'm like, no, no, you just text me one minute ago. Like this should be instant. We're going, we're playing tennis now.

[C]

I agree. The Minute you start organizing, it should be tennis, particularly for group things as well. If you're in a group chat, if someone is going out on a limb to try and organize something, you rep as soon as you can.

[A]

And also you can't leave that space.

[B]

Open in your calendar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For no reason. If they're not going to come back to you, something else is going to fill it.

[A]

Or if you're in a five person group chat.

[C]

Mrs. Popular too. I've got the busiest two women in.

[B]

Melbourne in this studio.

[A]

You've got a five person group chat and four have said yes to a day. And the fifth comes in the next day. Oh, I can't do that one. Sorry, you're out. We've got a table of four.

[C]

I'm like, no, yeah, no, we need to talk about that too. And there needs to be more people that say, hey, I can't come. But you will still go.

[A]

Yeah, always. I will always do that because I know that I am the pain in the ass. There are a lot of nights I can't do. There's late night UK calls that I have to do. There's this on a Monday night. I don't wanna do anything on a Wednesday night. Cause I record every second Wednesday. I know I'm the pain in the ass. I'm like, go forth and prosper, my friend.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But if I can, I will be there with cowbells on.

[C]

I find the way that I'm responding to this idea of constantly being contactable and not feeling invisible in any, any part of my life, like, you know, you just have no escape from any communication, is on holidays. I'm really struggling to see people. Like, I really don't want to hang out with people because I find that is the one part of the year where you can almost like cocoon yourself. Like, I don't really respond to people, I don't post really on social media and I just cocoon myself from everything to get my sanity back. Yeah, that's my only problem solving piece here.

[A]

Yeah. It is really funny because I would say I text my friends quite frequently and like, maybe that has a lot to do as well with the fact I'm single. So I like, wake up. No one's like, how'd you sleep? Or like, what are you doing today?

[C]

I'm like, literally no one asked me that anyway.

[A]

And so I'm like, yeah, what PJs are you wearing? I'm like, texy. Texie. How you know, how's your week going? What's your. You know, and I usually do that, like, as I'm waiting for my coffee. It's like my little, like, let, like my four favorite people know I'm thinking of them at that time.

[C]

I love that.

[A]

And then, you know, a little bit like you sometimes the dread comes when I'm like, in the middle of listening to a podcast or something in the AirPods are like, Rhiannon, Joyce has to.

[C]

And I'm like, you can get rid of that notification.

[A]

Yeah, I can. I know.

[C]

If I'm going to be Mrs. Apple over here, honestly, support. Look out.

[A]

Our desk is here. But my catalyst to this, much to your point on vacation is I don't text anyone on vacation. I don't really want to know anything. And I. I'll let you know how the holiday was when I'm home.

[B]

I agree.

[C]

It's like you disappear.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That's how it should be. I actually do not think you should text a friend on a holiday. I think you should let them disappear and hear about it when you get home.

[A]

Yeah. But it is funny. I did that for one of my best friends.

[B]

I'm not sure about that.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. I did it recently for a best friend and I think she got about four days in and said, why aren't you texting me? I was like, sorry, resume usual motion.

[B]

If someone doesn't reply in my, like, friendship group chat in, like, half an hour. If there's a conversation going on and one person isn't replying, someone in the group will be like, where's Jess? Where's Jana? Like, it's, like, stressful. We all have everyone's location.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's how, like, contactable we are.

[C]

The fairies.

[A]

Yeah. It's where you watch your fairies.

[C]

Oh, yeah. My sins. Yeah.

[A]

I don't like calling them my sims. They're my fairies.

[C]

Fairies is a much better way and much nicer way of putting it. How interesting. I really think that's all I've got. I'm gonna be honest.

[A]

I don't have anything else.

[C]

I'm done here.

[A]

I'm done.

[B]

More lollies.

[C]

More lollies.

[A]

Unless you've got kids. I just want a catalyst on that. If you've got kids, you get two to three business days from me.

[C]

I agree with you. And also, who had the last red and blue lolly here?

[B]

Wasn't me.

[C]

It was definitely me.

[A]

I'm sweating. I'm already sweating. And now it's definitely me. And that is all week's episode at Stylish. Thank you very much for joining us. Today, Zara McDonald.

[C]

Guys, thanks for having me. This has been really fun.

[B]

Always a pleasure.

[A]

Oh, sorry that I started the last ready lolly.

[C]

You know, it also may have been me. I may have just eaten them all.

[A]

It's the one on the floor that's still smiling at us for me.

[C]

Yeah, I know there is still lollies on the floor.

[A]

Thanks to you, Joanna Fleming, for just always being here. Such a delight.

[B]

And you, Patterson Sullivan Thorpe.

[A]

Also, we haven't covered it, but we are so close on Wedding Countdown, so I'm fully going to.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Next week.

[C]

Are we allowed to say how many weeks?

[B]

It's three weeks, man. Or two and a half. Yeah.

[C]

I'm so excited for you, Joe. And next week you guys are gonna be really excited because Annika's gonna be back.

[A]

I know. I'm so excited to see her end her growing bump.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Which is so fashionable. Look, if you have anything you want to email us, please feel free to anytime. Just don't text us. By the sounds of things, our email is style-ishameless media.com or you can slide on into our DMS over at StylishPod. I promise we're much better replies there. We can't forget to thank the shameless media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emmerburg. We'll be back with Arnika next Wednesday.

[C]

Woo.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land.

[B]

Always was, always will be aboriginal land.