Small talk doesn’t have to suck

Summary

Style-ish Podcast – “Small talk doesn’t have to suck”

Host: Madison Sullivan Thorpe
Co-hosts: Rhiannon Joyce (for Annika Joshi Smith), Joanna Fleming
Date: October 7, 2025
Theme: Practical tips and lively discussion on small talk, the social side of life, and at-home skincare devices—along with a candid deep-dive into event dressing for summer and current beauty trends.

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Episode Overview

This episode of Style-ish focuses on how small talk isn’t inherently boring—if you approach it right. The hosts deliver candid perspectives on social skills, share actionable advice on conversational starters, and unpack why “boring” often reflects more on the asker than the topic. Alongside, the trio navigates the evolving at-home skincare device market, shares their swap-ins (favorite current picks), and flips through the best brands for summer event dressing.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening Banter, Listener Appreciation, and Catch-ups

Timestamps: 00:08 – 02:17

• Hosts catch up, sharing love for Anika’s Fashion Week trip and reflect on vulnerability in their previous episode.
• Madison: “You feel like you can share things, you can open up and then you step out that door and you’re like, holy shit.” (01:52)

2. SPF and Sunscreen Recalls: Industry “Sacrificial Lambs”

Timestamps: 02:19 – 07:08

• Joanna breaks down the latest sunscreen recall scandal: TGA recalls/pauses 21 sunscreens due to shared faulty base formulas (by Wild Child), affecting many major brands, not just Ultraviolet.
• Key insight: Naked Sundays used the same formula but escaped major backlash—unlike Ultraviolet, which became “the sacrificial lamb.”
• “There are 21 other sunscreens impacted by this... I had to do a recall email out to my clients...” – Joanna (06:16)
• Fatigue in consumers and media coverage is noted: “Maybe consumers are feeling fatigued by this conversation” – Madison (06:39)

3. Weekly Swaps: Current Lip Balm, Kindness, and Skincare Faves

Timestamps: 07:11 – 13:10
Rhiannon:

• Swap-in: Balmy Lip Balm (B-A-L-M-E-E): “It’s really thick and has that nice consistency without it being sticky.” (08:11) Madison:
• Swap-in: Simple kindness—“Just say morning when you pass a stranger and smile.” (10:05) Joanna:
• Swap-in: Naturium skincare, soon at Sephora: “They’ve got a really good retinaldehyde cream serum as well…” (12:58)

4. At-Home Skincare Devices: Do You Really Need Them?

Timestamps: 14:30 – 28:04

Market Insights:

• At-home skincare devices market is booming ($15.7 billion USD, expected to triple in a decade).
• Most people surveyed (78%) do not own at-home devices; of those who do, only 20% say it improved their skin.

Hosts' Takes:

• Rhiannon: No devices—prefers in-clinic treatments for anti-aging and dehydration. “I just can’t pull the trigger, mostly because of the price point.” (16:55)
• Joanna: Only recommends LED devices for at-home use; strong evidence-based backing, derived from wound care: “There is actual data to support their efficacy...” (20:16)
• Madison: Shares personal journey through devices (Omnilux, Dr. Dennis Gross, NuFace, Philips at-home laser for hair removal). Cautions: “Devices don’t work in the cupboard...” (21:44)

Memorable Moment:
Joanna tries using her LED face mask on her dying houseplant.

• “We’ve been using the red light on it...If it can work on my skin, then it must be able to work on our houseplants.” (17:57)

Safety and Recommendations:

• Avoid microneedling, microcurrent, microdermabrasion, and pore vacuums at home due to potential for harm.
• Joanna: “I hate pore vacuums. I hate microdermabrasion devices... Just save your money essentially is what I’m saying.” (24:56)
• Who should buy an LED mask (per Jo): “If I have a client that’s very inflamed...that’s where I would say, get yourself a device.” (26:10)

5. Event Dressing for Summer: Brand Guide

Timestamps: 28:11 – 38:06

• Discussion opens up to include not just wedding guest looks but summer events (birthdays, holidays).
• High-end picks: One of Others, Antipodean (“their styles—absolutely beautiful and super distinctive” – Rhiannon, 30:58)
• Mix & Match: Harris Tapper, Helsa, Saint Agni, Reformation (“I love buying a top and skirt now...because I just kept looking at my closet going, these are dresses that I’m wearing maybe two or three times.” – Madison, 31:47)
• Affordable faves: Misha, Perfect Stranger, Verge Girl, With Jean, Faithful the Brand, Zara (“Zara is doing some good shit at the moment, and it’s probably largely because they’re ripping off Saint Laurent...” – Madison, 37:10)
• Instagram/TikTok as inspiration sources. “She’s great to follow for summer inspiration, just nails color, nails it.” – About Matti Guman, colorful fashion creator (37:56)

6. Main Topic: Small Talk Doesn’t Have to Suck

Timestamps: 38:11 – 54:16

What sparked the conversation:

• A TikTok video (Nathan / @sxintnate): “Stop being a boring person”; tips for improving social conversation—chiefly, stop asking ‘What do you do for a living?’

Is “What Do You Do?” a Boring Question?

• Rhiannon: “I really have no issue with this question because as someone whose job is very important to them, and I’m really proud... I love talking about my job, but I appreciate not everyone has that feeling.” (41:00)
• Madison: Dislikes the “pressure to have a cool job” (40:24), believes annoyance is often projection.
• Joanna: “I also like learning about other people’s jobs as well...” (41:27)

Small Talk: Painful or Foundational?

• Small talk is essential to build toward deeper connection.
• “Small talk gets such a bad rap...sometimes small talk is necessary to build to deeper conversations.” – Rhiannon (43:15)
• Jo: “If you can really get down into the depths...I would talk about exes on first dates...I had no boundaries with that.” (42:41)
• Madison: Dislikes when small talk doesn’t deepen; stuck on “surface level.”

Tips for Better Small Talk and Conversations

• Use “dead-end” questions sparingly and pivot to open ones; astrology or Myers-Briggs as playful, revealing topics.
  • “Which brings up such a great point that it’s not a dead-end question... There’s follow up questions.” – Madison (44:20)
  • “My favorite tip is actually focusing on the future, not the past when it comes to driving conversation.” – Rhiannon, (48:56)
• Avoid only asking about someone’s past (“How was your weekend?”) as it can tank the chat.
  • “If you focus on the future...it gives someone space to have hope and fixate on what’s actually positive that’s coming up.” – Rhiannon (48:56)
• Genuine interest is key: “I want to be as interested as I am interesting. And the worst thing...is to have a conversation with someone who thinks they are so interesting and doesn’t ask anything.” – Madison (46:17)
• Active listening is essential: “If you’re going in with cookie cutter questions and not actually listening...the conversation’s always going to end up dead ended.” – Rhiannon (46:51)
• Surviving or Thriving: As a casual check-in that elicits real answers, “Are you surviving or thriving?” (53:39)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments:

• “Devices don’t work in the cupboard, Maddie.” – Claudia (Jo’s former colleague, via Madison) [21:44]
• “If it can work on my skin, then it must be able to work on our houseplants.” – Joanna [17:57], reflecting both humor and beauty obsession.
• “I want to be as interested as I am interesting.” – Madison [46:17]
• “My favorite tip is actually focusing on the future, not the past when it comes to driving conversation.” – Rhiannon [48:56]
• “Surviving or thriving?” – Madison, as a go-to non-boring check-in [53:39]

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Notable Quotes With Timestamps

• “You feel like you can share things, you can open up and then you step out that door and you’re like, holy shit.” – Madison (01:52)
• “Naked Sundays have really come out of this quite well. It’s been a very quiet little takeoff shelf for some of the things.” – Madison (04:08)
• “The only devices that I really recommend buying for home are LED devices.” – Joanna (19:22)
• “Devices don’t work in the cupboard, Maddie.” – Claudia, relayed by Madison (21:44)
• “I hate pore vacuums. I hate microdermabrasion devices... just save your money.” – Joanna (24:56)
• “Small talk gets such a bad rap...sometimes small talk is necessary to build to deeper conversations.” – Rhiannon (43:15)
• “I want to be as interested as I am interesting.” – Madison (46:17)
• “My favorite tip is actually focusing on the future, not the past when it comes to driving conversation.” – Rhiannon (48:56)
• “Surviving or thriving?” – Madison (53:39)

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamps | |------------------------------|-------------| | Opening Banter | 00:08–02:17 | | Sunscreen Industry Scandal | 02:19–07:08 | | Weekly Swaps | 07:11–13:10 | | Skincare Devices | 14:30–28:04 | | Event Dressing Guide | 28:11–38:06 | | Small Talk Doesn’t Have to Suck | 38:11–54:16|

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Conclusion

The Style-ish team masterfully blends their signature wit and warmth with valuable, evidence-based advice. By exposing conversational clichés, debunking beauty tech myths, and revealing their go-to style picks, they encourage listeners to embrace both style and substance—in their small talk and their beauty routines.

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For more, visit @StylishPod on Instagram, or check the show notes for referenced TikTok videos, product links, and more detailed breakdowns.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Dan Murphy's Find out what's new now and next when it comes to trending drinks. This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, lifestyle, brand and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe. My co hosts today are Rhiannon Joyce, in the hot seat for Annika Joshi Smith, and of course, our mainstay, Joanna Fleming. Lovely to see you all. We've got Anika.

[C]

Yeah, she's away this week.

[A]

She's at Paris Fashion Week doing what she does.

[B]

Best Girl is having quite the trip and I'm loving the looks always. I'm excited for, like, bump fashion from Annika because the first taste, the taste test, I should say, is absolutely perfect.

[A]

So many dms as well from people requesting bump edits from Anika. Oh, so maybe we need to put Annika to work when she gets home.

[B]

Speaking of bumps and babies, we had a pretty overwhelming response to last week's episode.

[C]

We did.

[B]

And I think we just wanted to take a little moment to say thank you to everyone who reached out and who listened, because obviously, a little bit different for us. We know we do R U well, but different. Different topic for where we're probably more comfortable speaking than usual.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And all three of you were so vulnerable in sharing your perspective and your opinions. It's not easy, like, it is not easy to get in this room and share that stuff. It's. It's daunting. You guys did a great job. You should be really proud.

[B]

Thanks, bad gal, Riri.

[C]

You're welcome. We were very nervous pre and post.

[B]

We actually went for dinner after recording it because we were like, yeah.

[A]

I mean, that's so normal. That's so fair. But it landed really well. You guys had nothing. I mean, it's all. It's funny because when you're in this studio, Mads and I have talked about this before, you feel really safe in here.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You feel like you can share things, you can open up and then you step out that door and you're like, holy shit.

[B]

It is exactly that. Because you're sitting here with a microphone, which is a. Probably the most obscure part is the microphone, but otherwise you're on a lounge chair, you're chatting with your friends. It's no different to my bloody psychologist's office.

[A]

That's what it feels like. Also, give me a mic in real life any day of the week, and I would take it and speak into it. So.

[B]

Well, I'll take you to a karaoke booth. I'll do one better. You can sing into it.

[A]

Well not with this voice Right now.

[B]

I don't know if you guys have also seen but it feels like the never ending saga we have had even more SVF news come out. I feel like the words TGA was were tattooed on my brain from a work perspective for nearly 10 years and now I'm reading about them in quite literally every publication, every form of social channel. Jo, you are our SPF queen. In you we trust. What are your thoughts on that?

[C]

I'd say we're all SPF queens in this room. We are, we are if you ask me. But yes, the TGA has definitely entered the chat and have said that 21 sunscreens have been recalled, paused or are under review because they all share the same base formula. So so we'll put a link to the sunscreens that fall onto that list because there are quite a few popular ones that people are probably using that are listening right now. But the base formula in question is manufactured by a company called Wild Child. They've obviously since stopped making it, but according to the ABC Wild Child CEO Tom Kernow said following a recent inspection, the TGA confirmed that no manufacturing issues were identified at our facility that could explain variability in SPF testing results. The discrepancies reported in recent testing are part of a broader industry wide issue, he said. Focus has now turned to a specific testing facility in the UK called Princeton Consumer Research Corp. The TGA said they had significant concerns about the reliability of SPF testing undertaken by Princeton Consumer Research Corp. PCR Corp. So safe to say it's gotten a bit messy now that we've gotten into this territory and clearly a lot more sunscreen brands involved to some degree than just Ultraviolet, who were kind of, you know, spotlighted at the start of this main saga. But a lot has now come to light that quite a few formulas are impacted by this base formula that was produced and tested by pcr.

[B]

Yeah, fascinating to me and I'm really glad you kind of used the word spotlighted. I probably would have gone with something more graphic like the Sacrificial Lamb, but I feel like Naked Sundays have really come out of this quite well. It's been a very quiet little takeoff shelf for some of the things. I don't know. I just kind of would compare those two brands in terms of size, scale, popularity, proliferation. I just they made sunscreen cool and funny and you know, it had a personality and zest. If we go back to the original Choice article, Ultraviolet were very much the sacrificial lamb.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

And what we've Learned in this 21 base formula list is that naked sundaes are also manufacturing with the same base formula. And I have not seen anywhere near as much discourse online about their sunscreens or their integrity as a brand as I did with Ultraviolet.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, It's. It's a shame, unfortunately, that one brand obviously had to cop more heat than the others because a lot more are affected now that we now know. But I think that initial headline is just so inflammatory that it gets people interested.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think that's exactly what, you know, the news outlets want from that. It's unfortunate, but that's the reality. A lot of brands are now impacted by this and a lot more investigation has to happen and it's just going.

[A]

To keep evolving as it has been. I will not be the last up. How many times are we going to talk about this?

[B]

Yeah, we might just have this as an ever evolving segment. I'm trying. I'm trying to find this social video, but Rebecca Jefford, Bec Jefford, who is one of the co founders of Ultraviolet, uploaded a photo to her personal Instagram story that was, you know, that Spider man cartoon where the Spider Man's.

[A]

Yeah, they're pointing at each other.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And they're all pointing each other. And it was like the tga, the supplier, the brand, and it was like. And that is this whole controversy summed up right now to a T. Who done it?

[A]

Who done it in one single meme? You've just summarised the whole thing.

[B]

Yeah, we don't even need to cover it anymore. We'll just upload the meme every time we want to talk about it.

[C]

I also don't think it has been as widely publicized. There are 21 other sunscreens impacted by this. Like, I had to do a recall email out to my clients to tell them that if you're using this sunscreen, it has been recalled. Here's an alternative to use in the meantime. But am I going to do that with 21 sunscreens?

[A]

Yeah, hopefully not. Your admin will be serious.

[C]

It's already high, so I really don't appreciate this.

[B]

Can I challenge, even on the commentary that we just made about how many times can we talk about this, that maybe consumers are feeling fatigued by this conversation? And when I say consumers, I mean consumers of media that we're not seeing publications that would usually, you know, be talking about this with the same level of, I guess, intensity and spotlight as they did initially, that maybe that's why brands like Naked Sundays and these other brands are getting away with that.

[A]

It's a good point.

[B]

Consumer of media as well, though, like, they don't want to read about it anymore.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, potentially.

[B]

It's my hot take.

[C]

Well, I guess we better get into what's on today's episode. So today we are talking about at home skincare devices, whether you actually need them and if so, which ones are worth investing in. And then we're sharing our guide to event dressing for summer, followed by diving into the algorithm of Shameless Media's head of podcast, Lucy. But first, let's do our swap. Re me. You're in Annika's seat today, so you go first.

[A]

So I'm swapping in.

[C]

Lol.

[A]

I love a lip balm. I'm known for loving lip balms. I carry 11 on me at all times. I've just started another specific now it's 12. No, famously, I had 11 lip balms in my work bag when we shot a in office video. When social TV team came around and I was like, which makes me an expert to speak on recommendations about lip products. So I'm recommending a lip balm. The brand is called Balmy B A L M E E. It was actually founded by two Gold coast girls. One of them, I went to uni with Phoebe Pairing and they are absolute powerhouses. They've been working on this brand for about three years. They did full transparency, gift me a product to trial. However, I had actually pre ordered and purchased the product so it was already on its way before I actually got that gift. And I've been using it for the last, oh, I'm gonna say three weeks since they launched. Guys, it's so good. It's really thick and has that nice consistency without it being sticky. And I find lip balm can wear off quite easily if I don't have that thick sort of feeling. So if you're like me and you prefer that, great product. Also just love supporting female founders. They are only D2C at the moment, so direct to consumer. You can shop direct.

[C]

Love it.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. We love a lip.

[C]

Can I ask, is it similar to lanolips?

[A]

Like the texture, less sticky and no scent. Also what I love about it, the ingredients, mostly natural ingredients, which I find really gives you that like coconut oil, really like nourishing feeling on your lips instead of it being that sticky feeling. I love lanolips, but I feel they have a stickier texture.

[C]

Yeah, depends on the formula. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Balmy. Okay. Balmy. I Have to give that a crack.

[A]

Give it a go.

[C]

My current lip balm's a hundred dollars for, like, 6 grams, so I'm gonna have to find an alternative at some point.

[B]

I don't often choke at beauty prices, but I think I just choked on my own spit.

[C]

Yeah, it's. Look, I do savor it, but it's. I can't switch off it.

[A]

But you have great lips, so I feel like it's working.

[C]

I've tried to leave it behind, and I can't.

[B]

I will make sacrifices. Elsie, when we see you eating tuna and rice, we know.

[A]

All right, Mads, what's yours?

[B]

Okay. Mine's more a concept. So. I grew up in Regional Victoria. It is just rite of passage that when you pass someone, you say morning or hi. I have noticed recently, and it's really starting to bother me, that there are a lot of people I say hi and good morning to. In fact, every single person I pass with my dog, I used to people weren't saying it back, so my swab is just say morning when you pass a stranger and smile.

[A]

Dare I say the bare minimum. Crack a smile.

[B]

Crack a smile. Tell you what people also don't do. Crack a smile. Yeah, I'm out on walks with George. I'm like, I've got a smiling golden retriever. Even my dog is smiling at you. Just say hi.

[A]

You're also just bringing light and life into the morning. Like, that is honestly the best way to start your day. When a stranger says hello to you. I love that people so in the running community, saying hi and a quick nod and smile on your run is, like, highly regarded, and I feel a lot of people do that. So bring it to the Walkers as well.

[B]

So. Well, I'm also giving you a swap. If you're ever driving in Regional Victoria, you better put your hand up and wave to the passing car on the country road.

[C]

But you're meant to do that everywhere. If someone.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Lets you in.

[B]

No, no, I'm just talking. You're passing.

[C]

Oh, yes. On.

[B]

They've done nothing. They do just driving my way. It's just a little. It's the little pinky up.

[A]

I'm glad this isn't the way.

[B]

It's a knock on by accident. It comes so naturally to me.

[C]

Adrian will love this swap of yours because he always greets everybody and he' like, no one does this in the city because he's from the outer suburbs. And I'm like, I think they do. But yeah.

[B]

No, I'm with Adrian. Yeah, One Old man said good morning to me today. My whole heart could have nearly burst open.

[A]

So everyone who's on their morning walk right now listening to this episode, crack a smile, give someone a wave, eyes up.

[C]

Unless you're on Isaac Street. If you're on Chapel street, maybe don't do that.

[A]

Yeah, so fair.

[B]

Jo, what have you got?

[C]

Mine is actually an entire brand, which I don't normally do, but I feel like I should mention this because there's strong whispers that this brand is coming to Sephora by the end of this month. And I'm quite sure that that is happening because I've started to notice they are not replenishing their products on their Australian website. Right. This brand is called Naturium. Now, great price point, I would say similar kind of price range, if not slightly cheaper than like a go to skincare.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So quite affordable, like cleansers, moisturizers. And then they've got like a few serums that might have a slightly higher price point, but they have a really great range. I actually recommend this brand all the time to my clients because it's also available overseas and I see clients internationally as well. So I really, really rate this brand. And I've been waiting for one of our retailers. I'm like, is it going to be Sephora? Is it Mecca? Is it adore beauty? Like who's going to get it? Because it's just one of those brands that it was inevitable that it was going to end up at one of our main retailers in Australia. They actually were acquired by ELF in 2023 for $355 million. Wow.

[B]

I know the brand you're talking about.

[C]

So it's originated. The founder was YouTuber Susan Yara.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So she created the brand. There was a bit of controversy around that, but it's been acquired since and it's just they've got great body products, they've got great moisturisers. One of their favorite, one of my favorite products they have is their multi peptide moisturizer. I also really like their azelaic acid products. They've got a nice barrier bounce serum as well.

[A]

I'm noticing a theme here. Very Jo approved products. Good for barrier.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Not too intense.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've got a really good retinaldehyde cream serum as well, which has a 0.05 and a 0.1 percentage, I think. But I don't know if the higher one is available in Australia being like, huh, either.

[B]

Sounds great. Next we're discussing all things at home devices, but that will Be right after a word from today's sponsor. I don't need a weather report to tell me it's getting warmer. I know because my tastes change. Suddenly I'm in the mood for long lunches, fresh burrata and a spritz or hay, maybe even two. I can confirm spring has sprung here in the southern hemisphere. And with that, my palate's changing too. It's the perfect time to be sipping on a crisp something with girlfriends. But I know it can be so overwhelming to find the perfect drop that pleases everyone. And that is where our friends at Dan Murphy's come in. When it comes to figuring out what's new and what everyone's drinking, they do the work so you don't have to. You can pop in store and the team will point you in the right direction. Or you can do what I do and use their app for that wine in the sun. There's a couple of recos. First, the QPO Spicy Rose, which sounds like a good time. Also, the non alcoholic Poker Limoncello Spritz. If you're not in the mood for drinking, it's like a springtime party in a glass. You're welcome. Dan Murphy's is the spot to find your new favorite drink, download the app to get inspired, and remember to choose to drink wise. A huge thank you to Dan Murphy's for making this episode a star as possible. What we want to discuss next is if we actually need at home devices. I feel like I can't look you in the eye with this, Joanna Fleming, because I could only imagine how many devices sit in your bathroom.

[C]

You'd be surprised, actually.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, well, we'll get into that. Bring it in. So the reason we wanted to chat about this was because news was released last week that Shark Beauty is expanding its beauty tech line with a product called Facial Pro Glow. And it got us thinking about how wildly popular at home devices have become in recent years. Especially when you compare it to what our parents would have had in their bathroom. Like, feel like my mom was 30 having like a single moisturizer and maybe a cleanser.

[A]

She still does, my mom.

[B]

But in the same week, our very own Joanna Fleming uploaded one of, if not my favorite TikTok or pieces of social content, I should say, which was your led at home device comparison.

[C]

It took me long enough. I'm glad you appreciate it.

[A]

That's your second one, isn't it? You've done one in the past?

[B]

Yeah, it's like your third.

[C]

Uh, I did one on Dr. Dennis Gross. Separately.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. So it is technically my third. Yeah.

[B]

Ding, ding, ding. We're both right. So we did a little survey of the shameless media office and found that majority 78% don't own these types of devices. From the people who do own them, only 20% felt that it improved their skin and was worth it, while 50% thought it was a waste of money. Not the best stats, if I'm honest. We also asked the stylish community over on instagram and only 21% of those who responded currently own an at home device. But 63% of you are interested in owning one. The biggest factor that stopped people from purchasing was price at 56%, followed by fear of it not working at 24% and a lack of understanding of what the hell these products actually do was 20%. Safe to say though, the skin device market is huge and a growing one too. According to a research report by Spherical Insights and Consulting, the global skincare devices market size was valued at 15.7 billion USD in 2023.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And the market's expected to get to 49.8 billion USD by 2033. Now, you don't need to be a maths guru for me to tell you that is some serious growth. And having worked in beauty for 10 years, I can assure you that not every category is enjoying that rise. That is astronomical. Let's start off with rapid fire Do. Jo, I'm not even starting with you. Do you own an at home device of any kind?

[A]

No, I do not.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Surprising.

[A]

I'm shocked.

[C]

I am surprised by that.

[A]

Should we go deeper? Yeah, go on, elaborate. Look, I. Jo, I've actually had a few conversations with you about do I dip my toe into the trialing different products. But. And I've also done my own research. I just can't pull the trigger, mostly because of the price point. And I'm just not convinced that it will address my main skin concerns. If I had acne or if I had rosacea or things that I felt like it would have an immediate effect on, or I could see the results at home, I would feel more inclined to purchase it. I don't have those skin concerns. My skin concerns are more centered around anti aging and dehydration. And I've always felt that the best way for me to address those concerns is within clinic services. I just. I'm not convinced, guys. I'm not convinced it's going to do the work. So I haven't pulled the trigger.

[C]

Jojo, that's so fair. Can I Just give you a funny side note.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

At the moment, we've got a house plant in our house. It's not cooperating. All of the other house plants, really happy this one wants to be buried.

[B]

Did you?

[C]

We've been using the red light on it.

[A]

No, you haven't.

[C]

We've been putting it on the red light. Therapy.

[A]

Are you serious?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Every night.

[A]

And is the plant driving or is it surviving? As lads would say, look, it's kind.

[C]

Of staying the same at the moment. We've only done, like, three nights of it.

[A]

Okay. So, yeah, we're.

[C]

We're really hoping it bounces back up. Like, Adrian's filmed it and everything, because we're like, if this comes back to.

[A]

Life, you know that this is gonna go off.

[B]

You know that TikTok audio. That's like, I am fucking crazy, but I am afraid that is you when you're putting that red light on it.

[A]

I also had to take a serious beat when you said it. I was like, did she say what I said? I think she said, like, am I processing this properly?

[B]

I knew where she was going the minute she said, we've got houseplants. I was like, say less. I could finish this sentence. And I was like, what?

[C]

I just figured, well, if it can work on my skin, then it must be able to work on our houseplants.

[B]

Maybe if the plant can come back to life, you will be convinced to buy one.

[A]

No. Do you know what will be enough to convince me, Jo, is do the pitch. Tell me right now, why do I need this product?

[C]

Okay, this is a very broad category. Like, this is kind of a lot to cover off in one segment, because when we say skincare devices, we're talking LED masks, we're talking pore vacuums, we're talking skin needling pens.

[B]

Like, we're talking facelifts. Yeah, like with microcurrents.

[C]

Exactly, exactly. There's just so many things that fall under this category. The only devices that I really recommend buying for home are LED devices.

[B]

Okay. Is that what you're talking about as well? In terms of I haven't pulled the trigger?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You've been considering an led?

[A]

Yes. So the two products I've actually considered side by side, Dr. Dennis Gross and Omnilux, are the two that I've looked at in detail yet to pull the trigger.

[C]

And did you watch my comparison video?

[A]

I did, I did. I've also asked you. I just. Honestly, it's that point of not feeling like I'm the right candidate for it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Second to that is the price point. The Dr. Dennis Gross LED masks retail for $782. That is a lot of money. And for me right now, would I rather spend that money on truthfully, Botox in clinic solutions and invest that in my at home skincare routine? I have done that. I also use rationale, which is super expensive. So I feel like that's where I'm putting the money and I am seeing results. I'm happy to keep it there.

[C]

Yeah. Yep. The reason that I recommend LED devices is because there is actual data to support their efficacy. Like, NASA discovered the benefits of red light therapy basically for high and low atmospheric environments and wound healing. So, like LED light therapy has been used for a long time in wound healing and skin repair and all those kinds of things. So it's not really like, I guess that's a new technology to have at home, but in a clinic setting, this has been used for many, many years and it's used post procedure, like post surgery to heal and to reduce bruising and swelling and those kinds of things. So there is definitely data to suggest that it is beneficial for the skin.

[A]

So I actually love using it when I'm in clinic. And it has a higher frequency. That's correct.

[C]

Higher irradiance.

[A]

Sorry, higher radiance.

[C]

Yeah. So, yeah, what you have in clinic, not comparable to what you're doing at home. If you're gonna have that kind of device at home, you need to be using that three to five nights a week at a minimum to see results from it. And that is the problem here, is that a lot of people do not want to invest the time. They're happy to throw the cash at it, but when it comes to actually using these devices at home, they're not using it as frequently as they need to be to be able to see results. And this is why I don't recommend things like microcurrent and I don't use it myself because honestly, I can't be fucked.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like, I can put my LED mask on while I'm watching TV and like, I just can't do that if I'm in the mirror for 15 minutes with a microcurrent device like that is why I don't have one in my own routine.

[B]

Devices don't work in the cupboard. And I've got a lot of devices in the cupboard. And that is what someone said to me when I was like, should I get the NuFace? And it was an incredible product developer that I worked with, Claudia, and she has like these beautiful, rich Italian accent and she was like, they don't work from the cupboard, Maddie. And I was like, that is some honest shit there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I have the Omnilux mask, which I bought because I had really terrible cystic acne during IVF and I was really embarrassed and Covid really fucked me wearing a mask all the time. Like at one point I was honestly thinking about selling my car to buy an at home LED machine secondhand when clinics were closing down. I was so embarrassed in my skin and to be honest, it just hurt. Like my acne was sore. I was like, I would love to not like have pain around. So I bought that. And then I worked at Mecca for a number of years and when you work at Mecca, you're given a very generous staff discount and also a staff allowance. So I think I saved up for like a year. My staff allowance and my Dr. Dennis Gross mask cost me $6.80 by the time I just saw that. So I was happy to get those two. I did also buy a new face with the staff allowance. I really hoarded that discount to buy devices. But there is one at home device I will ride at dawn for forever and that is the Philips at home laser.

[A]

Oh yeah, you recommended this works okay.

[B]

Like while we're sitting here talking and I do back NASA for science, by the way. Like if NASA say I'm in new face, well that's not going to work from the cupboard, but holy shit, does that at home hair laser removal device work. So I would say big yes on that one.

[A]

Do you know what I would say? Sharing is caring mats. One of those could go to me and I could trial it.

[B]

You and my mother can get in line.

[A]

Get in line.

[B]

Oh my God. Fight club between my mum and Rae, who wants it for Christmas?

[A]

No, I'm scared.

[B]

Okay. Like are there devices, Jo, as a professional in this field that you are just like, absolutely no. Cause I have seen some and I shouldn't say hilarious because it's obviously someone's face, but like those at home microdermabrasion ones where people like, it's almost like they bring bruising. They look like they've got hickeys all over their nose.

[C]

Absolutely mortifying. What I will say on that Philips device as well is that that wouldn't be suitable for a deeper skin tone.

[B]

No.

[C]

So it's fine that you've got dark hair and light skin.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

But if you had a deeper Fitzpatrick skin type, that could be potentially problematic, which people may not realise that and then cause, you know, discoloration post inflammatory hyperpigmentation on their skin. So that's one thing is that people sometimes, you know, that sometimes don't know how to use a device. And people are buying these microneedling pens online, having no training whatsoever in infection control protocols, have no idea what they should be doing to their skin before and after these treatments, which are literally creating micro channels in the skin so you can potentially cause a lot of damage to your skin, not only the risk of infection. So there's so many things I wouldn't recommend at home. That's why I say like blanket. The only thing that I would recommend is an led, guys, because I know that you're not going to completely ruin your skin with that. I hate poor vacuums. I hate microdermabrasion devices. This Shark 1, waste of time. It's basically a baby hydrafacial. I don't recommend those anyway. So like just save your money essentially is what I'm saying.

[A]

Guys. TikTok has a lot to answer for because I feel like all these products always trend on TikTok and even when I was looking at different, you know, you always go and look at people that you follow and be like, what's their experience? I would always go to your page, Joe, because you're a professional and experienced person in the field. You're, you're an expert.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The amount of TikToks I see from people who do not have a professional opinion and are sharing their subjective viewpoint based on what their personal experience is, I'm not taking away from that. But that is not helpful. And that can actually cause harm.

[B]

Yeah, it's misinformation.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah. I think the problem with that is that they're free to share their content. Like they can say, oh, I used this device and these are my results that I got, that's fine. But people aren't using their own critical thinking.

[A]

No.

[C]

Like, oh, okay, well, they've actually got a very different face to me or they've got very different concerns to me. Maybe this wouldn't work. They're using it every day. I'm probably only going to use it once a week. Like kind of use that thought process a little bit to narrow it down. But I would say that probably 80 of my clients ask me about devices. Yeah. When I'm on a call with them, they're like, what do you think about led? What do you think about microcurrent? What do you think? I'm like, don't waste money.

[B]

Okay. So if someone was seriously thinking about an LED in like a 10 second lift trip, who would you say an LED device is actually for? Cause I feel like that's what most people would be considering buying.

[C]

Yeah, well, actually, clients will ask me that and I. The ones that I tell, don't worry about it are the ones that don't have inflammation concerns, they don't have acne, they don't have rosacea, They've really got quite good skin already and there's no need for them to be investing in a device like that. And I might have another treatment in mind that they could spend that budget on. So, for example, something like skin needling might be really appropriate for them because their main concern is enlarged pores and a little bit of texture. And so that's where that treatment might be more appropriate. If I have a client that's very inflamed, they've got quite inflamed hormonal acne, for example. They've got rosacea, they've got an impaired barrier. That's where I would say, get yourself a device. But also, if you've got the budget for it and you want one, it's not gonna do any harm. Yeah, that's the thing. If you are prone to melasma, which is a stubborn pigmentary disorder, steer away from the blue wavelengths. And I did know that. Yeah. And then potentially opt for like a panel device so it's not flush with your face. But yeah, stick to the designated treatment time of the device as well. Don't put the Dr. Dennis Gross on for 20 minutes. That's actually a three minute treatment time, so don't go crazy on that one if you've got melasma. But, yeah, there's not a lot that can go wrong with LED devices, especially if you invest in a quality one, because there's a lot of crap out there.

[B]

Great. We love that hot take straight from the horse's mouth.

[C]

Hopefully I've covered everything because I feel.

[A]

Like I think you have.

[C]

I had a lot of notes for myself and I just rambled.

[B]

Look, you're probably sitting or walking, smiling, hopefully at people you're passing by and thinking, all right, great. Well, which one's your favourite? What you may not know is that LED masks are actually a medical device, which means they fall under the tga. Who is the same body that we keep talking about who manage sunscreen. So we can't sit here and talk about what our favorites are, but we can tell you to head to Jo's video and check out her breakdown where she doesn't share her favorites, she just shares information.

[A]

Again, Link it in the show notes. Easy access. Let's go.

[B]

Great. One click away.

[C]

You're welcome.

[A]

Watch those views go up.

[B]

Jo, you're welcome.

[C]

All right, that takes us to our next segment, which is our guide to event wear for summer. So with the warmer months fast approaching, I know for us based in Melbourne, we've had a few nice days, which is always puts a pep in our step down here with the cold weather. And we have been asked a lot for our event dressing recs. And we did a segment earlier this year which was specifically about brands that make great wedding guest dresses. So I think we gave a list of that and I know that I'm going to have some double ups in this one.

[B]

You love what you love.

[A]

We also have a lot of new listeners since then.

[C]

True that.

[A]

You've grown quite a bit. Yeah.

[C]

So this time we're broadening it out and we're gonna cover all things event dressing. So things that would be suitable for like birthdays, events over Christmas, holidays, you know, whatever it might be. We're gonna try and cover it off with our recommendations. So what labels are we turning to for event where? Who do we. Who wants to start us off?

[B]

It feels like we could do one of those. Spider Man. What you want to Rock paper scissors?

[A]

Rock, paper scissors.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Three, two, one. Oh.

[B]

Draw Ray gets to go first. I know.

[A]

We went like that.

[B]

That was so me. I felt icky for you.

[A]

I know, I know. Okay, so I'm going first because I won. So some of my favorite labels to wear for event wear over summer. I look, I'm gonna go start with the highbrow ones that are definitely more expensive. If you're investing in good event wear, the intention is for that to exist in your wardrobe for a really long time. My favorite brands, one of others, Melbourne brand Arnica, actually represents them at Sage. Oh, obsessed with this brand. I feel like, oh, my God, you just cannot go wrong. Every drop that they do. There's so many good stuff. Really good mix of everyday wear. Not this chart, but also throwing that in there. Great dresses, really good for event wear. Also antipodean. I feel like there's no way I was getting on this podcast and not talking about this brand. The patterns that they have in the textiles. Joe's laughing because famously, like, are we going there?

[C]

Yeah, we're going there.

[B]

Say it with your chest.

[A]

So famously, I had been mispronouncing this brand for so long, even though I loved it. Loved it. Sick. Didn't know how to say it. I was saying Antipodium.

[B]

I'm laughing now.

[A]

Anyway, I got called out on TikTok. Rightfully so. And also, to be clear, I took no offense to someone correcting me. So, yeah, famously, I do know how to pronounce this brand name now. It is Antipodean, and it is a brand worth investing in their patterns, their textiles, their styles. Absolutely beautiful and super distinctive. I just love their stuff. They've got good mini dresses, but then also have really good formal wear. Probably better suited to, like, a cocktail wedding or perhaps the 30th birthday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Great option.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's some highbrow ones.

[B]

Yeah. Should we keep on the highbrow row and then work our way down? Right. So that we're, like, you know, moving through? It's like actually doing that price list. Yeah, love. So I know we're talking event wear and often we go dresses, but one thing I've loved doing at the moment, I'm being invited to a lot of weddings, which I love a wedding. Just ask. Right. I tear up a dance or Joe, look out, I'm coming in hot. Feels I'm, like, doing the stretching and getting ready to break it down. I love buying a top and skirt now. If there is something that I can buy in a set format so that I can rewear that top with a pair of jeans or wear it with a different skirt to another wedding. Because I just kept looking at my closet going, these are dresses that I'm wearing, like, maybe two or three times. No matter how beautiful they are or how much I love them, I just don't want to wear the exact same dress to six weddings.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

And so I am loving Harris Tapper. I've spoken about Harris Tapper. It's. I think it was maybe my second or third swap. Recently saw a girlfriend loose wear the top that you actually have, Ray. The Harris Tapper top in black with a beautiful pair of pants to a wedding. She looked absolutely sensational. But like, the top that you bought or that beautiful pink top I have with a column skirt at a wedding. Incredible. Equally, I've worn that beautiful pink silk top with a pair of jeans to the shameless Christmas party. I've worn it to a friend's 29th birthday drinks. Yeah. And I'm like, it was an expensive top. I'm never gonna sit here and say, $500 is cheap for a top, but I have worn that top maybe 14 times. And from everything to weddings, engagement parties, birthdays.

[A]

Also one to keep an eye out for. Harris Tapper is on the iconic. And I Swear they always have 25 to 30% off. Like I'm gonna say, like every two months, two or three months. So save it in your wish list, put an alert on so when it goes on sale, you can just snap that up.

[B]

Yeah. And bonus, Swap Harris Tapper actually have a really good sale on their website right now.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

Other two that I love, Saint Agni. I think they do really beautiful sundresses that you can dress up with a heel or dress down a little sneaker or sandalwood. And also Helsa, who I have bought a few dresses for for weddings events, and I find myself re wearing them. One thing I will say, disappointingly, their quality does vary depending on garments and collections. Few pieces that I got from her earlier collections were much better quality than things I've bought recently that I've actually found myself returning because I have been a little disappointed.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen a few creators. Cat Spanti buys a lot of Houser and on Tick Tock, she's done a few, I guess, reviews of like, return or keep style videos. And she also made that comment around the quality dipping in recent drops. That would be enough to turn me off immediately to try a brand. Because if you're spending upwards of 6 to 800 on a dress and the quality isn't there, it's a no for me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

One thing I will say too is when I was buying Helsa, like, all of the dresses that I bought were around 400 mark, and I feel like the prices are really inching up at the moment. I feel like I can click on anything and price can be anywhere from 4 to 1200.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. Jo, share some of your racks. I'm keen to hear.

[C]

I have been spending a lot of time browsing on Revolve lately because a lot of my friends are like, what should I wear to the wedding? And like, can you help me find an outfit? And so I've just been like, browsing and Helsa is one of those brands that just keeps going. Every time I see something I really love, I'm like, oh, Tulsa, like, it's 800. They're not gonna buy that. The other brand that I'm seeing a lot is Demi by Gabriella.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen a lot of this brand as well.

[C]

Yeah. Really beautiful shapes and silhouette. Silhouettes. I really, really love what they're doing.

[B]

I've never seen them.

[C]

And Lovers and Friends is another really good one. I don't know that Revolve. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so lots of revolve racks.

[C]

Yes. Yeah. So Revolve is one place I'm browsing a lot. Some other brands that I really like for event wear. Our significant other, they do some nice. More like slightly more casual, like, more for a cocktail wedding, maybe an engagement party, a 30th. I think that's, you know, the perfect brand for that. Misha is another one. I think. You can't go wrong with Misha. They always have really beautiful silhouettes on there and, like, some cool. What would you call, like, sequined ones at the moment? Yeah, that one that you've got. You've got that one.

[B]

I love that dress so much. I don't think I've ever been asked if I'd be willing to sell something so much, because I don't think they were originally recutting that.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It's this beautiful sequined dress. They originally did it in a red, and then Misha actually reached out and I very generously offered to gift me a dress and I picked that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I adore that dress. I was like, no, guys, I'm not selling it. One, because it was gifted to me. I'm not profiting off that. But two, I just bloody love it.

[C]

They now do it in a white as well.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Also great for hands.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

On the note of hands, I wore a set for my hands. A little with Jean white one. That was great. Also, coming into the warmer months, we're not just talking about wedding guests racks. We're also talking about, you know, different events. 30th birthdays. Love a set, as you said, Mads, as an option. I do think with Jean have some really good options. Reformation as well. Yeah, they've got some good stuff. And Faithful, the brand, more of like a linen set. Summer vibe.

[B]

Yeah, Love faithful in general. Just have bloody great stuff for summer.

[A]

Great stuff.

[B]

Really good, good pieces and really good quality.

[C]

Yeah. I think in the same category, Rome and Sir.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Kind of same vibe. If you're looking for mix and match and a little bit of color and a bit. Something a bit more exciting than like a basic.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like a neutral.

[B]

If you are preferring something a bit basic or neutral, posy, I think it's pronounced to really beautiful stuff. They had that great white linen set that Sophia Richie Grange famously wore in her wedding week. That was like the little white linen vest and the skirt. They do some great stuff. Funny, you were talking about Revolve because there's a great brand on there. I bought a little dress for years ago, but ended up wearing in New York. For the first time. Lpa. The little black polka dot one. Oh, yeah, that I had on. And there's another brand that's on revolve and forward called Saroya. I think it's pronounced. I actually bought a dress for Ray's welcome wedding drinks.

[A]

Oh, that was hot.

[B]

Super cute little mini. I like, will wear that with sandals in summer to go and, like, get a drink somewhere, like a little bit nicer than, like, you know, your local pub or bar. But also wore it with a heel to, like an event function.

[A]

Gorge.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Love some more slightly more affordable wrecks than the brands that we've covered. Perfect Stranger and Verge Girl. Yeah. Alongside, you know, your dishes and, like, revenues and stuff like that, guys.

[B]

Also Zara. Zara is doing some good shit at the moment, and it's probably largely because they're ripping off St. Laurent, but there are some really good tops. If you just want to go and spend like 60 to $100 on a great top, like, go to Zara.

[C]

I actually saw Matti Guman on TikTok, a very popular creator known for her, like, colorful fashion. She posted a new brand called Towin t o h e n and it was a really cool. I think it was like a butter yellow and it had this. This really cool, like, sarong part over the waist.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

With tassels and stuff on it.

[B]

Oh, cute.

[C]

It was really, really cute. I feel like that would be perfect for a summer event, but you could also dress that up for like a wedding.

[A]

Yeah. She's great to follow for summer inspiration. Just nails color. Yeah, nails it.

[B]

Such a fun, infectious, like, love of fashion too. It's not my personal style. I don't know that I could ever be that adventurous. But I absolutely love watching her.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

And just seeing how she puts things together. She's got a really bloody good eye, love. Yeah.

[A]

All right, next we're discussing how not to be a boring person, AKA how to get better at small talk. But that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

[B]

It's that time of year. Our weekends are filling up fast, with lots of fun, lots of social events, which means you probably need some ideas for what to take, what to drink, even what to gift. So here's a hot tip. Download the Dan Murphy's app for tons of insights Bow. It'll guide you to what's new and what's trending in drinks so you can find the perfect something without the overwhelm. Remember to choose to drink wise. And thank you so much to Dan Murphy's for making this episode as stylish possible.

[A]

Okay, a bit of background here.

[B]

I think context is very important.

[A]

Context is key for this segment. Something that shameless listeners will probably be familiar with is a segment called welcome to My Algorithm. We have also in the stylish studio, dipped our toe into this concept before in the past. Last time we did a welcome to our algorithm, I actually spoke about the cutting room floor and the 55k job debacle. If you want to listen to that segment, it's in our September 3rd episode. This time round, we're taking a look at Lucy, our head of podcast algorithm, which this week has had a lot of chatter around small talk and whether we're all becoming, to be honest, just a bit boring. So up top, we just want to add that we know this convo applies more specifically to neurotypical people. So we're coming at this conversation from this perspective, analyzing everyday conversations we're experiencing. So the TikTok that actually inspired this conversation was created by a creator called Nathan. His username S X I n T n a T e on TikTok and captioned, Stop being a boring person. Lucy brought this conversation to one of our whips and it started a huge debate among the team at the table. In this video, he went on to say, I recently learned that a lot of you don't know how to talk to people. I would say that relationships are super important to us. Obviously, for me, it does really come down to your ability to hold a good conversation. What I like is that he's gone on to give three tips. The first one was stop asking people what they do for a living. Do you guys agree with this first tip?

[C]

No.

[A]

No, I agree.

[B]

I agree. I agree. It's an annoying question to be asked. It also puts a lot of pressure on people to have a cool job. And I'm using. I'm really using the little inverted commas a lot at the moment on this podcast. But a lot of people's identity is tied up in their job or what they deem to be a cool job. Like, I think that has diluted people's ability to see what's best for their career. I know we've touched on it a lot. Re like doing the unsexy things. But I feel it does put an unnecessary amount of pressure on people to have a cool job or to be able to, off the cuff, say cool things about what they do.

[A]

Yeah, that's where I think there is a little bit of projection from the person who, if you're annoyed at that question, I think it maybe has something to do with either you aren't really happy or confident in your job or don't feel like your work really defines who you are. It could be one or both of those things. I really have no issue with this question because as someone whose job is, like, very important to them, and I'm really proud of what I do. I love talking about my job, but I appreciate not everyone has that feeling and the sentiment around how they feel about their work. What do you think, Jo?

[C]

I don't mind the question. I quite like talk, but I also like learning about other people's jobs as well. I remember when I was dating, I actually liked hearing about what other people did for work because it was, like, interesting. You get to hear about this whole other side of, like, what goes on. And I don't know what an accountant does every day.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I actually think I went on any dates with an accountant.

[B]

But, yeah, it's fully my favorite part about dating.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Really, I'm like, hearing about the business structure, what you're working on. I'm like, I don't like when they work on something that's confidential. I'm like, come on. I want to tell.

[A]

When I clicked on the TikTok, I knew that someone in the comments was going to write this. Like, I knew that that was going to be, like, going to echo back to the video being like, I can't stand it when people ask me about my job. It's reductive and all of these things. There were, like, multiple comments that said this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Honestly, I think it has more to do with the person who's being asked the question if they feel offended by that. Yeah, I think that's very much a projection, overarchingly.

[B]

Do you enjoy small talk? Do you think you're good at it, Jo?

[C]

I think I am good at small talk, but also because I've been forced to be like, I go. I'm in a lot of situations where I'm with people I don't know, and I'm meeting people for the first time. I'm going to a lot of events where I'm on my own and I have to talk to strangers.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So out of necessity, how y' all doing to get good at it. But also I feel like that was a real strength of mine when dating, because it's basically an interview. And so if you can really get down into the depths, like, I would talk about exes on first dates, like, with them, and be like, what was your last Relationship. What kind of went on there? What's your family dynamic? I had no boundaries with that. I was like, whatever, let's just, let's just open the doors and discuss. Because I didn't just want it to be surface level. I kind of find that I just don't really get to know people when there's a barrier there. So I'm straight into the deep stuff.

[A]

Small talk gets such a bad rap. Everyone's like, I hate small talk. I hate small talk. Sometimes small talk is necessary to build to deeper conversations. You have to start there to move into the more invasive questions and conversations that Jo is talking about 100%.

[C]

Like, you can't run into someone who don't really know that well and be like, so I heard about your breakup.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

You've got to start with how's work?

[A]

You've got to build.

[B]

You've got to probe what I will say. And as someone who does identify as saying I loathe small talk is when it doesn't deepen from there.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

I don't want to sit at the top of the pyramid with you the entire time.

[C]

One of my prompts is about star signs. I know it's cringe and I know some people hate talking about, but it is a way to get into the deeper conversation quicker.

[A]

Oh, I'm not one of those people. I love it.

[C]

Yeah. Like as soon as you're like, so what's your star sign? They'll be like this. I don't know a lot about it. Have you done your rising sign? Let's figure out your rising sign. When were you born? What time are you born? Text your mum. You get into that. You then start being like, oh, so you like this. Oh, you're like that. Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. So this is all making sense. And then they start to divulge a bit more information. So.

[B]

Which brings up such a great point that it's not a dead end question and that would be such a big piece of advice for me is don't go, how are you? Because most people go, yeah, really good, thanks. Or like, oh, a bit tired or busy. Yeah, it's like, where do you go from there? So going, what's your star sign? Is that okay now, do you know what day you were born? Where were you born? There's lead up questions. Like, there's follow up questions. I do a very similar one. Rae's gonna laugh at this Cause she knows how me coded it is. The girls often text me after a date. Being like, how long did it take You I ask what your Myers Briggs is.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

If you haven't done it before, 16 personalities is where you can do it for free. I'm an entj. For those playing along at home. We are in the minority, 2% of the population.

[C]

Is this your colour analysis?

[B]

Fully, fully full.

[A]

Great way of.

[B]

Yes. Yes. And I to the point that I want to start a club of just ENTJ's where we all gather together just to understand if we're all the same.

[C]

Same with me and Tru Autumn.

[B]

But this is the thing. You answer like 50 questions and it's like, oh, you're learning about people when they're like reading out loud. Oh, like how do you operate under stress? Like, you know, nature versus nurture Questions like how you operate in crisis. I'm like, oh, you learn a lot about it. It's an easy way to go from level one to 10 really quickly.

[C]

This is very similar to the star sign question because you can learn a lot about someone's personality by being like, oh, you know, a cancer is very like, you know, emotional. Are you like that? And then you can learn a little bit more about if they haven't done their Myers Brigitte.

[A]

Do you know what else it does? It, it for me, it's more about like how you then adjust your communication style. What you're both doing is really trying to understand and unpack. Like, okay, how does this person, like move through the world?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Two very different ways of doing it. Yeah. But ultimately you're trying to understand them on a deeper level. That's also helpful to be like, okay, now that I've got these little nuggets of knowledge, it's like, how do I adjust my conversation style? Also maybe you ask questions that are more tailored to their interests because you're like, okay, I can assume that maybe they're interested in this and you can build from there. It's nice. I like it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

One thing that I feel is a really great piece of advice and Rae, I really want to get to you because I think you probably do more small talk than the both of us combined. Ultimately, the biggest tip I can give someone is to genuinely be interested a hundred percent. I always say, and this is probably the best piece of advice I will ever get on here and give is I want to be as interested as I am interesting. And the worst thing that can ever happen is to have a conversation with someone who thinks they are so interesting and doesn't ask anything.

[C]

Could not agree with that more if.

[A]

I tried the other Thing that drives me insane is when people are not actively listening to what you're saying. And coming back to your point around wanting to get to a deeper level, you cannot do that if you are not actively listening and looking to build on the conversation with someone. If you're going in with cookie cutter questions and not actually listening to what they're saying, the conversation's always going to end up dead ended. It's always going to be, you know, feel stale or feel like that typical small talk that we're used to. It's not going to get deep, it's not going to evolve and turn into something that feels like that constant, genuine back and forth as well.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So Ray, I mentioned you do a lot of small talk and I didn't mean that in a way that you only ever do small talk because you're probably one of the best I've seen be able to develop from small talk to really deep, thoughtful, intellectual conversation both with friends and colleagues. I've seen both formats. I'm blushing. Yeah, I guess I like you back. What are like, what are some hot tips of advice? Because I guess it would also be helpful for you to explain just a little bit of what day to days can look like for interacting with people.

[A]

Look, being able to start, hold and drive a conversation is an essential tool in my everyday job. I have a lot of clients that I have to speak to constantly throughout the day, but also just managing my own team, external relationships. I'm constantly having meetings, client lunches, presentations, the awkward 10 minutes before you get on a zoom. What are we talking about? I'm constantly having to start, hold and drive those conversations. And I think holistic understanding of like how you approach conversation is really important. It's not just about starting it. It's like, how am I going to keep this going and keep this like, like full circle In a way, my favorite tip is actually focusing on the future, not the past when it comes to driving conversation. So what I mean by that is so often people will come to a conversation and say, how was your weekend? And it can fall really flat. Or sometimes what happens is maybe someone had a shit weekend and maybe someone doesn't actually want to talk about it or something's happened and they're then trying to think of a way where they can cover it up and back on it was fine. Or maybe I'm really like, something's going on that hasn't been great. If you focus on the future, what it actually gives someone is space to have hope and fixate on what's actually positive that's coming up. And you can kind of start to then push the conversation along based on what that is. So, for example, if I was to ask you, Joe, what's coming up this week? You're going to think about the good things first, I would assume.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What's coming up this week?

[C]

Yeah, I'm just working.

[A]

Give me more love.

[C]

Have a dress fitting tomorrow. Okay.

[A]

Dress fitting. Oh, my God, that's so exciting. What's the dress fitting for?

[C]

Second dress.

[A]

Okay, so now we've got a conversation that's going to a place. See, see?

[B]

Don't lead with work either. I love that you touched on that, Ray, though, because I think at a time in my life when I was truthfully just really struggling and didn't do a lot on my weekends, I cannot. I don't think I've ever experienced the anxiety that I felt going to work on a Monday, because I used to load someone saying, how was your weekend? And I would find myself just going, like, pretty relaxing. Or like, oh, you know, like, went to Pilates. I'm like, well, I'm not gonna tell you that I literally rotted in my bed for nine hours struggling to find the will to get up.

[A]

No. So instead you flatten it and you'll say something that's like, oh, I didn't get up too much. And then the conversation dies. Exactly. There's no build.

[B]

Or you're deflecting and giving so little of yourself to go back onto the person because you don't want to go any deeper.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I love that. That is probably the best hot tip. What else have you got in your little black book of tips?

[A]

That's it. Good one. No. What else do I have? It's my job to be a good conversationalist. One thing I will flag is I do get frustrated when I'm in social settings where I feel like people who know me, or perhaps people who have the assumption that I will be carrying the conversation, then don't do any lifting. And I'm there doing the heavy lifting the whole time. This happens a lot at weddings. The old seating chart. Zara and I always talk about the seating chart and how it can, like, really make or break your experience at a wedding. And sometimes if you're seated next to people who make no effort in pushing the conversation, like, you're sitting there for three hours. Let's all do some heavy lifting. Let's all come into this scenario being, like, trying to at least get a little deeper and beyond the small talk drives me nuts when I feel like I'm carrying a conversation the entire time.

[C]

Yeah, it's tricky when you're stuck in a conversation where there is no, there's no end to that. Like, that's a three hour situation. That's not a ten minute situation before a zoom. Yeah, that's where it gets awkward.

[B]

It's getting like. So do you like cheese? Yeah. What's your favorite?

[A]

No, the worst is when you start getting into the hypotheticals.

[B]

Have you done.

[A]

No, I've done this. To be fair, Louie tangent. When you spend so much time with your partner on your honeymoon, for example, we were away for like three and a half weeks. By the end we were like, so hypothetically, if this happened, like, what would you do? It's like running out of stuff to talk about.

[B]

My favorite, though, and rhe and I will play this if we have found ourselves towards the bottom of a champagne bottle. Is all it takes after a couple of glasses of wine is for me to be like, what's your favorite funeral? Like, what's your favourite funeral song? What's the best first dance wedding song you've heard? What's the best wedding you've ever been to? Okay, you've got one final death row meal. What are you having? 3 courses, no more go.

[C]

Oh, I like the death row meal.

[A]

Chatty Cathy. Any tips from you?

[B]

I think tone and zest bring a lot. How are you? Yeah. And I want to really acknowledge as well, no surprise to anyone, I'm an off the chart extrovert. So I find conversation easy. I don't find it daunting. I very rarely get social anxiety unless it's like a big, large scale event where I don't know anyone. That's where I do feel a little bit anxious. But I think tone and excitement and the energy that you bring to a conversation, I think you can ask the questions that we all think are a bit boring. The weather's crazy, isn't it? Or like, how's work? Whereas if I'm like, oh my God, how's work going? Has it been crazy? If you know anything about their work, you're like, have you seen the bloody hail? Like, my dog and I just got drowned in the rain. That's so much, so much more impactful. And I just think having the intention of that conversation and the excitement to be talking to someone. I love meeting new people, love learning about what they do for work or what they find enjoyable or who they might know of my friends and just being able to connect Dots like.

[C]

Like.

[B]

It honestly is one of my favorite things to do. So, yeah, I would say just like, intent, tone and excitement. Be like a puppy. Yeah, Just like a little puppy when it sees someone new outside the cafe.

[C]

Anything, you add that up nicely.

[A]

Anything to add or you feel like.

[C]

I agree with all of your points. I agree.

[B]

You're like, see all of the above.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I got nothing further to add. Sorry.

[B]

Yes. Oh, I've got one more. He's such a great.

[A]

I've got one more. Sorry, you're about to finish.

[B]

I've come in late. I've come in late. It's surviving or thriving.

[A]

Oh, my God. How could we forget this?

[B]

I cannot believe we've just gone this whole episode. I always say this when I bump into someone I've maybe only met once or twice. I'll be like, oh, it's so nice to see you. Like, I learned. They're like, how are you? I'm like, hey, it works this. Are you surviving or are you thriving? And it's such a funny way because people will be like, I am fucking drowning at work.

[C]

I love this. Thriving or surviving. Yeah, I'm gonna use that.

[A]

Yeah, I've actually started using that now. It's really rubbed off on me, which. Which always happens.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I also always say two things can be true. And people always look at me like, I'm so philosophical, and I'm like, trademark, Brianna Joyce.

[A]

Yeah, we need to start TMing our stuff.

[B]

That is all for this week's episode of Stylish. Hopefully some tips not to be boring. And now you'll know which household devices for your skin not to buy.

[A]

Also boring. Can I clarify his words, not ours?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very important. Two things can be true. Thank you so much for joining us today. And of course, thanks very much to you both, Rhiannon Joyce and Joanna Fleming.

[C]

And you, Mads.

[B]

Thank you. I always love that you thank me back. Remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at StylishPod, maybe tell us what's in your algorithm that you want us to cover. We can't forget to thank the Shameless Media team, Head of podcast, Lucy Hunt, Senior podcast producer, Kate Emma Burn. We'll be right back with you next Wednesday when RiRi joins us again.

[C]

Yay.

[B]

See you then.

[C]

See ya.

[A]

This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land.

[C]

Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.

[D]

Hello, everyone. It's Jamie Lang here. Now. Can I just grab you for just one second to tell you about my podcast, Great Company. It's out every Wednesday and I'm joined by someone I really admire for a great conversation. It's a space to share, to be inspired, to learn, to be moved, even laugh. There are so many things that I get from it, and there are no gimmicks. It's just me, great guests, and you. You are the most important person. You, the listener. Listen and subscribe to Great Company with me, Jamie Lang. New episodes out every Wednesday. Wherever you get your podcasts.