Sunscreen scandal: Unpacking the Ultra Violette saga

Summary

Style-ish Podcast Summary

Episode: Sunscreen scandal: Unpacking the Ultra Violette saga
Date: August 26, 2025
Host: Joanna Fleming with Annika Joshi Smith & Rhiannon Joyce
Produced by: Shameless Media

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the ongoing Ultra Violette sunscreen controversy, exploring new developments around the brand’s Lean Screen SPF, industry-wide sunscreen testing issues, and the broader ramifications for sun safety messaging and consumer trust. The panel also explores influencer wedding monetization in the social media age and closes with a lively discussion about Australian fashion’s global challenges, spurred by outspoken designer Alex Perry.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Product Swaps and Fashion Trends

[01:27 - 10:20]
The episode begins with the regular “swaps” segment, where each host shares their latest favorite product or trend:

• Rhiannon’s Swap:

  • Predicts the return of “XL wedges” and flat platform thongs, referencing Kylie Jenner’s ERL platforms and affordable dupes at Cotton On.
  • Notable quote [02:09]: "She looks like such a baddie...I feel like XL size wedges are gonna be everywhere this spring summer." – Rhiannon Joyce

• Joanna’s Swap:

  • Shares fascination with “Yale Cleaners” TikTok account, specializing in dramatic wedding dress restorations.
  • Conversation pivots to the high cost of dry cleaning wedding dresses in Australia.
  • Notable quote [05:41]: “Yale Cleaners is my swap. Go and watch it if you love cleaning content.” – Joanna Fleming

• Annika’s Swap:

  • Champions Canva Print, describing its ease and cost efficiency for wedding and event stationery.
  • Hosts express surprise and delight at the feature.
  • Notable quote [09:39]: “Canva, we're printing 50 thank you cards...and it cost me about $70.” – Annika Joshi Smith

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2. Sunscreen Scandal: Ultra Violette’s Lean Screen

[10:40 – 27:32]

Background & Unfolding Events

• The issue began with consumer watchdog Choice’s shocking results: Ultra Violette's Lean Screen, sold as SPF 50+, tested at SPF 4.
• Ultra Violette at first rejected the findings, then initiated their own testing. The TGA (Therapeutic Goods Administration) also began investigations.
• TGA Statement [12:00]: TGA acknowledges variability in SPF testing and is reviewing its requirements, exploring more reliable test methods.

Ultra Violette’s Response

• Ultraviolet commissioned 8 independent tests: results varied wildly from SPF 4 to 60, signaling grave issues in test reliability.

• Lean Screen was withdrawn and officially recalled; customers eligible for refunds and product vouchers.

• Extra measures:

  • Ceased work with accountable manufacturer/lab
  • All new SPF products to be double-tested at independent labs
  • Increased retesting frequency

• Notable Quote [13:39]: “Lean Screen has now returned SPF data of 4, 10, 21, 26, 33, 60. That wasn't good enough for us and it isn't good enough for you.” – Ultra Violette Statement, read by Joanna Fleming

Public & Social Media Sentiment

• Initial reactions from the brand’s community were supportive.

• Tone became dramatically more negative as mainstream and international outlets amplified the story, with Estee Laundry and others critiquing the situation.

• Notable Quote [16:19]: "It's such a tough topic. And I guess when people's health is at stake, it's like, what type of apology is ever gonna be enough?" – Rhiannon Joyce

Broader Industry Fallout

• Mecca and Naked Sundays proactively removed related mineral sunscreens while awaiting further testing. More brands with similar or the same manufacturers may be impacted.

• Highlights regulatory loopholes:

  • Brands rely on manufacturers and labs, which can fail them.
  • TGA’s oversight and testing protocols are questioned.

• Notable Quote [20:39]: "Is the onus on the brands? Or should they feel like they can trust their manufacturer?" – Joanna Fleming

Impact on Public Trust & Sun Safety

• Panel fears erosion of trust in sunscreen, especially among young consumers—increasing risk of tanning and complacency.

• Cites bans on creator content about sunscreen as counterproductive; calls for TGA to enable more educational content creation.

• Notable Quote [22:39]: “If you can't even regulate the product yourself, at least let us talk about how important it is to use it.” – Joanna Fleming

International Fallout & Business Ramifications

• Ultra Violette’s recent US expansion to 592 Sephora stores potentially threatened; unclear how much US market will react.
• Calls for transparency: panel urges public disclosure of all SPF testing results for brand trust.

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3. Influencer Weddings: Monetization & Transparency

[28:50 – 40:54]

• Discusses Olivia Torber’s article in The Cut on influencer engagement/wedding content as huge business, citing Jazz Smith as a prime example with 20+ TikToks on her ceremony.

• Explores boundaries, authenticity, and commercial pressure:

  • Some hosts respect creators' transparency and acknowledge the financial rewards.
  • Others are uncomfortable with loss of intimacy and potential for unrealistic expectations among followers.

• Notable Exchange [31:02]:
  Joanna: "I actually respect that creator Jaz...for being really transparent..."
  Annika: "...there is not a world where I could have done what these creators have done..."

• Panel members share their own wedding boundary strategies regarding sponsorship and content.

• Discussion on whether elaborate documented weddings set unrealistic standards and breed comparison culture.

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4. Alex Perry vs. Australian Fashion

[41:35 – 53:01]

• Alex Perry laments "lack of support" from the local industry despite international success ("I'm hanging up in Bergdorf Goodman and in Harrods and it's like, suck that.")

• Discussion on why elite Australian designers, e.g., Zimmerman, Realisation Par, leave for greener overseas pastures:

  • Small local market, shrinking price tolerance, rise of fast fashion, rental platforms, editorial pay-to-play for fashion mags.

• Touches on “tall poppy syndrome”—Australian cultural trait of cutting down those who succeed and “have their moment.”

• Panel notes local magazines now heavily driven by advertisers, limiting unpaid exposure.

• Internationalization is often a necessity, not a choice; local PPE design demand limited (few event/red carpet occasions).

• Notable Quote [51:10]: “That’s Australian culture. It doesn’t matter what you do, what industry you’re in, if you’re successful, people aren’t going to want to see it.” – Joanna Fleming

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• [02:28] Rhiannon Joyce: "It's giving Polly Pocket...and it's giving Bratz Doll. We're going way back."
• [12:00] Joanna Fleming (reading TGA): "...this process will take time. Variability in sun protection factor testing results is a known issue."
• [22:39] Joanna Fleming: "If you can't even regulate the product yourself, at least let us talk about how important it is to use it."
• [36:42] Joanna Fleming: "No way would I take on a piece of sponsored content for my wedding day."
• [47:09] Rhiannon Joyce: "...I would actually consider Alex Perry more of a luxury brand. His price points are high..."

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Swaps (Product/Fashion Trends): [01:27 – 10:20]
• Ultra Violette Sunscreen Scandal: [10:40 – 27:32]
• Influencer Wedding Monetization: [28:50 – 40:54]
• Alex Perry & Australian Fashion: [41:35 – 53:01]

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Tone & Language

The conversation is candid, knowledgeable, occasionally irreverent, and peppered with personal anecdotes and expert industry insight. The hosts maintain a balance of empathy for brands/creators and critical awareness of broader consumer and cultural issues, all in a conversational, inclusive style.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode of Style-ish offers a detailed, nuanced exploration of the Ultra Violette sunscreen testing debacle, revealing far-reaching implications for product integrity, public health messaging, and trust in regulatory systems. The hosts also offer sharp, contemporary perspectives on influencer culture’s effect on major life events and the persistent frustrations of homegrown fashion brands striving for recognition both in Australia and abroad.

Transcript

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Foreign.

[Sponsor Voice (JD Sports)]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by JD Sports. The all new Adidas Adizero Evo SL has landed. Made for you to run in or not. Shop them at JD Sports.

[Joanna Fleming]

This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business and beauty. My name's Joanna Fleming. My co hosts today are Annika Joshi Smith and Shameless Media's head of Business development. And our Friday Stylish co host, Rhiannon Joyce. Welcome.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Hi. I got an extra line at the end. I've got new job title.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I love it.

[Joanna Fleming]

Welcome back, Riri.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Thank you for having me.

[Joanna Fleming]

Guys, Mads is obviously living her best life over in Europe, so you're filling in post holiday. So you still got a Euro trip in. But I personally didn't.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

But we can't all honeymoon next year, perhaps.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes, I think so. I think so, yeah. It might be a little Italy trip, I reckon.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Oh, yeah, that's the best spot. That's what we did. Italy, Spain, south of France. It was perfect.

[Joanna Fleming]

Can you do Portugal as well? Oh, yeah. I know your itinerary, but he's been keeping tabs.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Oh, no. I'm very jealous of Mad's videos, but I'm very happy to be sitting in the chair and replacing her temporarily.

[Joanna Fleming]

We're happy to have you, as always.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

We love it. It's actually quite nice having, like, another new face in the sea. Well, not a new face, but another face in the sea.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Keeps me on my toes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Who's in it this week? All right, so today we're chatting about a new development with Ultraviolet's SPF testing the rise of influencers having extravagant engagement and monetizing their weddings. I have a lot of opinions on this one. And Alex Perry speaking out against the Australian fashion industry. But first, as always, and I'm taking the lead on this, I did steal Jo's roll. We're going to do the swaps. So who wants to go first?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Well, you should know by now it's me.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I do know. I'm staring at ikea.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I'm like, let me have it. My one moment to shine.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

This is you.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Okay, so did you guys recently see the picture of Kylie Jenner rocking some huge, like, I want to say fuck off sky high platform flip flops?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I didn't see this.

[Joanna Fleming]

No. Oh, my God.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

You need to have a look. She looks like such a baddie. Like, do people still say that? Because she looks insane, but she was wearing these huge flip flops by the brand ERL and they're literally like 20 centimeters. Like, they're just huge and just a platform.

[Joanna Fleming]

So not even a wedge. Just like a flat platform.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Just a flat form platform.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It's giving Polly Pocket.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

And it's giving Brat Doll. Like, we're going way back. But it got me thinking. Cause last year, I don't know if you guys remember the Scarlet and Sam wedges that were, like, all over everyone's feet. And I feel, like, all over my fades. And I feel like XL size wedges are gonna be everywhere this spring summer. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm into them because I'm a bunion girly and I can't work. We've all seen my bunions. I just need to shut up about the damn things. But I can't walk in, like a stiletto or a heel anymore. Like, I look stupid and so I love a flat form. Don't know if I'll get around a 20 centimeter, but I do love the Caperni. The Coperni thongs. Have you seen them? Yes, they're super cute. I found a dupe for 30 bucks at Cotton on and I add to card immediately.

[Joanna Fleming]

So is that the swap?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

That's.

[Joanna Fleming]

Oh, I've got a few.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

So that's one of my swaps. But I think XL kind of wedges or any flat forms will definitely be making a big comeback this spring summer. I think we've seen, like, Chloe do them in a more boho fashion. I know we spoke about it recently.

[Joanna Fleming]

Ri.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

We even sell Tony Bianco and Alias may do a couple which are quite cute. But ideally, definitely think we're gonna see a lot more on the runways. Alaia have just done, like, a really cool raffia, which I think will come through for a resort. But yeah, exile thongs and XL wedges.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I can get around this one. I feel like, especially in summer.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I love a bit of height, even though I am quite tall. And I do find a wedge just slightly off balance.

[Joanna Fleming]

Same.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

So the flat platform. I'm definitely.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Do you know who looked really sexy in a witch? True Mets. Do you guys remember?

[Joanna Fleming]

Oh, yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

We did a shoot recently and she looked really, really sexy.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I love a wedge.

[Joanna Fleming]

I'm not for a platform. Okay.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

We might convert.

[Joanna Fleming]

There's something about walking in them. I feel like I'm stepping on a brick or something. I don't know what. I can't quite get my head around the way that you walk in them.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I love them paired with, like a micro mini.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. Cute.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, I like to offset. I see what you did there.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

She's proud of me. I love that. What's yours, Jo?

[Joanna Fleming]

Well, I thought because Maddie's the way I could get away with doing a cleaning one without her yelling at me.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

She's going to be listening to this and be furious.

[Joanna Fleming]

I know. I'll get a voice note from her later. So I got stuck in a TikTok hole the other day watching this account. It's called Yale Cleaners.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Oh.

[Joanna Fleming]

And they're dry cleaners that basically specialize in wedding dress restoration.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Just came up on my.

[Joanna Fleming]

Did you watch it?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I did.

[Joanna Fleming]

It honestly will cure any kind of, like, issues you have with your attention span. I was watching that. I don't know how long the video was, but it was a long time for me to watch this wedding dress restoration. Watch the whole thing through. Fascinating. Bill, who does the dry cleaning. He is a man of many crafts. I need to know Bill personally in.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

The video I watched today. It's so funny, so serendipitous that I just watched this video. It was like, I think it had been stored for five or six years and it was completely.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes. And it had been in a pool.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, that's the one.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Okay. That's the one.

[Joanna Fleming]

The priest.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. They jumped in the pool after the.

[Joanna Fleming]

Wedding and then they put it straight into storage.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Oh, my God.

[Joanna Fleming]

And so the dress was basically ruined. Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

But it was a Bill.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

And Bill fixed it.

[Joanna Fleming]

Bill fixed it.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Oh, my.

[Joanna Fleming]

It was amazing the amount of cleaning that that dress went through. Probably not great for the environment, but fascinating to watch.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah. Okay.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It was addictive.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

So we're following Bill. Is that your swap?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yale Cleaners is my swap. Go and watch it if you love cleaning content. I love cleaning content.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I actually had to get my dress dry clean before my wedding because with all the, like, fitting and alterations, I was. I'm such a grub. Like, I can't believe I'm wearing white today, but every time I do, I get shit on it. Today I had to dry clean my dress prior and I still actually haven't dry cleaned it since. I'm so scared to look at it. Is Bill in Melbourne?

[Joanna Fleming]

No, he's the U.S. damn it.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Okay.

[Joanna Fleming]

We could always send it off. Bill, if you're listening, can we send Annika's dress and then we'll feature it on Stylish socials?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. I also feel there. I'm sure there's an Australian bill that could do.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Surely it's just very expensive here.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, it is so expensive.

[Joanna Fleming]

Why is it so expensive? I'm actually scamming to get my text.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

The bridal text, the wedding tax, whatever.

[Joanna Fleming]

You want to call.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Mine wasn't too bad. Like this sounds ridiculous. I paid $550 to have my dress.

[Joanna Fleming]

That's normal, I think.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

No, that, that's cheaper.

[Joanna Fleming]

Is it?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

A lot of people told me they spent between $700 to $1,000 to get a dress dry clean. But in saying that my dress wasn't super intricate, didn't have a lot of beading. It was pretty simple. But apparently the more detailed, the more intricate, the more expensive it is.

[Joanna Fleming]

I need to know why. That's the cost.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

This is why people don't do it though.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, that's exactly why I have it.

[Joanna Fleming]

It's the last thing you want to pay for once it's done.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

No, but to be fair, and in my dry cleaners defense, I've been going to them for years. It came back spotless. Like I could definitely sell it. No issue whatsoever. Okay, so it was a worthy $550 investment.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Would you sell your wedding?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yes. I'm actually in the process of planning it because I had my dress custom made. I have to get my measurements. Yeah. Because when you sell it and list it on the website, you have to be really specific with the details. I'm like, I don't know any of this stuff. So yeah, I'm planning on selling it. So if anyone wants to buy my.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Way, I know, I'm like, maybe feedback to me your process. I'm like, maybe I want to sell my wedding.

[Joanna Fleming]

We've got to do a follow up wedding series. Oh, we actually have to maybe post my wedding y plan for that, I think. And then you and I can both talk about our weddings.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I would love that.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. Cool.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

And I can just talk about mine again.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yours was so special.

[Joanna Fleming]

You can talk about yours again. I'm sure Zara will want to as well.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Everyone will just have the opportunity to talk about their weddings again.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Meds might be getting married with her Euro flame.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Who knows? She'll come back.

[Joanna Fleming]

She's like, I hate you for saying that. I know she's got a helmet.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I can't wait.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Oh well, she's not here. I am so yours. So my swap is actually in the theme of weddings. Good. Little transition there. So I've actually been using Canva print recently. It has a print function. You can print all of your stationery, your templates, your presentations direct from Canva and they send it to you.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I did not know that.

[Joanna Fleming]

I did not know that. At all.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

This is so good. I always am the one who ends up doing the stationery at hens parties. You know, even for our own events at work when we need to save money, I might not have the budget to be able to work with someone externally. I'm like, okay. Canva is my best friend. This print function has changed my life.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

One, because I physically hate going to the post office and officeworks.

[Joanna Fleming]

Is it expensive?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

No. Well, I'll put it into context. So we're in the process of printing our thank you cards and originally I was looking at Papier, which is this beautiful stationary online company. They're based in the uk, but they also ship to Australia. We were trying to do 50 thank you cards. Bespoke design, colorways. It was going to cost me 250 Australian dollars to have them sent here, plus $46 in shipping. And I was like, this is absurd.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Obviously you could go to any sort of print shop or anything and get that done at a cheaper amount. Usually when we're working with our printers, if we're doing place cards, let's say we're doing 30 place cards, it's probably anywhere between $40 to $70, depending on the finishing. So, yeah, it can vary. Canva, we're printing 50 thank you cards, matte finish, which is like a. I'm getting really technical here. But we're printing 50 thank you cards in a matte finish, which is a more premium finish. Having them sent straight to the office.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And it cost me about $70.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Oh my gosh.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Which sounds expensive, but in the context of what I was planning on spending with the paper one and the look and feel, I just designed it in Canva on myself.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Did the full ready to print look and feel.

[Joanna Fleming]

I'm hoping my friends are taking notes for my hands.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Seriously.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It's so much easier as well. And I don't know why, but I do find it physically stressful to places where I have to like, go figure it out.

[Joanna Fleming]

I don't want to be an office where it's doing that.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

No. I get overwhelmed.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I get overstimulated. So, yeah, that's really interesting because we do so much printing for work and it's like we've got the thank you cards, the business cards, like all the different stationary. And I don't want to even tell you how much money we spend.

[Joanna Fleming]

No, it's.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

It's astronomical.

[Joanna Fleming]

I did not know that that was a Canva feature. Yeah, neither. Okay.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

So I feel like a lot of people are going to get around this.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, I'm getting around it tomorrow, my show. Reminder, Ella, if you're listening, you're on this.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Well, I'm glad. I was like, is this a dorky swab?

[Joanna Fleming]

No, I actually love that swab.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I actually loved how into it you got. I'm like, oh, I can't say that the inner workings of rew.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I'm very passionate about Canva print. It's helpful in my job, but it's also helpful in my personal life.

[Joanna Fleming]

Love that. Love that. Okay, we're going to start off with the Ultraviolet updates. So most of you who spend any time on social media may have already seen this unfolding. We're recording this on Monday. So this is a very fast moving story. A lot of new developments have already happened today before we jumped into this studios. So there's bound to be more things that unfold over the coming days ahead of you hearing this podcast episode on Wednesday. Yeah. But as you might know, earlier this year, we covered the pretty shocking findings that Australian consumer watchdog Choice published about Australian sunscreens not meeting their SPF claims. And one of the most surprising and most documented results was that of Ultraviolet's Lean Screen, which was in market as an SPF 50 plus. But in Choice's findings returned an SPF rating of just 4, which obviously panicked a lot of people at the time. Ultraviolet said it didn't accept Choice's results as even remotely accurate, but the brand said they'd continue to investigate and retest Lean Screen. And in the episode where we covered this story, we were really sitting on the fence with it because there was just too much yet to be uncovered.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

And I, I really felt like I had to sit on the fence because I'm like, well, these results have come from somewhere, so there needs to be more investigation into this before I feel comfortable going one side or the other, whether I'm on Choice's side or Ultraviolet.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It was definitely an evolving story and it still is, as you, as you said up top.

[Joanna Fleming]

And a lot of people were very quick to kind of jump to the defense of Ultraviolet, and I don't think that they have intentionally gone about creating a product that doesn't meet standards or tried to cut corners at all. I don't think that is what has happened here. But there has been a gross error that has occurred. And as a result, we're obviously talking about this again because there's been further developments. So on the 21st of August, the TGA released, in part, the following statement. The TGA's investigation is ongoing and is currently focused on a comprehensive review and analysis of the high volume of data received from sponsors. Given the complexity and scale of the material involved, this process will take time. Variability in sun protection factor testing results is a known issue. This is due in part because it relies on human subjects and a visual estimation of individual skin responses. The TGA is currently reviewing existing SPF testing requirements. In doing so, the TGA is exploring alternative test methods that may be more reliable, including in vitro test methods. Through its risk based approach to the regulation of therapeutic goods, the TGA will take regulatory action as appropriate, given Australia's high incidence of skin cancer. The TGA reiterates that using sunscreen is an important measure to prevent the harmful effects of ultraviolet radiation. This should be combined with seeking shade, wearing a wide brim hat, wearing protective clothing and using sunglasses so last Friday, Ultraviolet then released an updated statement that said the results of their additional testing they commissioned eight different tests from a range of independent laboratories, demonstrated significant and atypical variation and that they were withdrawing Lean Screen from the market effective immediately. It has since been posted that the product has been officially recalled. I saw that on TGA Instagram. So customers who own Lean Screen will be eligible for a refund and a product voucher dating back to 2023, regardless of where it was purchased. I've seen comms go out from Adore Beauty, for example, about this particular product. In a statement, Ultraviolet said Lean Screen has now returned SPF data of 4, 10, 21, 26, 33, 60. That wasn't good enough for us and it isn't good enough for you. So these results only relate to Lean Screen and the brand said that the tests on their other products have reinforced our confidence in the rest of our line. There are a few additional measures that the brand has put in place too. They'll no longer be working with a third party manufacturer that made Lean Screen and they're no longer working with the original testing laboratory that tested Lean Screen initially. They'll also test every new SPF product at a minimum of two independent labs prior to launching and they've increased the frequency of retesting to every 18 months and will use off the shelf market samples when doing so. So that's a lot. Jo, there is there is so much to go through with this particular story and even today, like it has been continually unfolding. I'm sure that you guys have also seen the mixed response on socials. What's the sentiment that you guys are getting from this?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

The initial sentiment I saw on Socials. I saw the statement from Ultraviolet go out on Instagram and immediately the tone I picked up in the comments. Roughly about 150 comments. I would say predominantly from their community.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Relatively positive in that initial wave. The second wave hit once it hit the mainstream media outlets and the likes of the Daily Oz had posted. I also had a few friends in my friendship group send me that post as their first point of contact with the announcement. Not Ultraviolets.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Which I thought was very interesting. That then brought in a huge wave of mixed bag when it came to the comments and the sentiment. And I did feel like there was a huge shift in terms of negativity and people going on the attack to Ultraviolet. What did you guys say?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, same as you. Like, the community was supporting them, really. And then as soon as it hit the mainstream media outlets, it was a free for all.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I feel like now as well, like, it's going to only kind of get a little bit more icky with Estee Laundry entering the chat. Like, for me, this is what my girlfriends were sending me because I think it's kind of sometimes a little bit more gossipy in some ways.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

But I think now we've seen obviously it be in local media, international media, and now I feel like the commentary is just gonna get probably even more niggy just from like the nature of the criticism approach that a lot of these outlets have. I think it's really hard because it's such a tough topic. And I guess when people's health is at stake, it's like, what type of apology is ever gonna be enough?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Or what kind of answer is even gonna be enough? So I'm really interested for you to keep diving deeper. Jo Ann. Ry.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think it's interesting because a lot of us expect them to have all the answers when we don't have all the information beginning. This conversation has been ever evolving. It's still ever evolving. And for me, I am judging this based on the information that is at hand and is presented me when we're having this conversation. And I know you guys did the same in the first recording.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Because a lot of people have gone back and actually criticized Ultraviolet's initial response video with the gift of hindsight. And in my opinion, I don't think that's fair because they presented their positioning and their statement based on the information they had at that time. Exactly. So this is all, as you said, Arnica. It's not. Not clear as day. It's not as easy for us to sit here and make a decision and make an opinion on it. Jo, I feel like out of everyone in the room, you were really well placed to be having commentary on this. What is your take in terms of how do Ultraviolet, I guess, come back from this?

[Joanna Fleming]

It's gonna be really challenging. I think in probably the last 12 hours, I have seen it shift a little bit more to a focus on the tga, which I know that Mads really honed in on that the last time that we spoke about this particular topic because she was like, the TGA has something to answer for here. I would have to agree with that. There is a much bigger issue at play here. I do just want to come back to Ultraviolet's statement for a second, because they did flag that Lean Screen was one of the only products in their range that was created by a third party manufacturer. And so they're no longer having any sunscreens produced by that manufacturer or any sunscreens tested by that testing facility that was used previously. I am interested to know what other sunscreens were made by that third party manufacturer in their range. But they did say in their statement that they feel confident about the rest of their products in their range. I am already seeing a lot of my own clients refuse to use the brand entirely. So that concerns me from a brand perspective that that's gonna be really hard to come back from once you've lost the trust of people, especially when it has to do with your health. As you said, Annika, as soon as you're put off something, it's really hard to build it back. Even though they have a very strong community and they have. They've got such a strong brand presence. It really is hard to come back from something like this, especially when there's already a lot of mistrust in a product like sunscreen because there's a lot of greenwashing that happens around this particular product. And so I. That's already a challenge. And then you add this on top and it just magnifies it a lot more. My concern is that there are likely many other sunscreen brands that are using this base formula who have not been called out by choice and who I would hope are pulling their products from shelves and having that testing done themselves if they know that they have the same manufacturer. Because this may never become public knowledge. Yeah, I know that there are trickles coming out of products that are being pulled off shelves and being retested. According to some Instagram stories from an account called Sam by the Counter at the time of us recording this Mecca and Naked Sundays have actually made the decision to remove Naked Sundays Collagen Glow Mineral SPF sunscreen from sale effective immediately as a precaution.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Okay.

[Joanna Fleming]

So despite the product allegedly being made by multiple manufacturers, they are awaiting further independent testing and refunds are also available for this particular product. So that's not to suggest that this doesn't meet requirements at this stage, but they are taking precautions and it seems as though there are a lot of other brands in market with a mineral formula that may be quite similar to Lean Screen that are also pulling their products from sale. So Naked Sundays released a statement on Monday 25 August, which stated that we are pleased to report that preliminary SPF results from a new independent lab for our Collagen Mineral sunscreen produced by our US Manufacturer has returned preliminary results to support the label claim of SPF 50. We've since updated our listing with the TGA for this version to be available locally in the coming days. Till then, we've paused the mineral from sale in Australia out of precaution while we await new complete independent SPF results and subsequent guidance from the TGA on their investigation into SPF testing.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

This is so hard because it's like you're using a third party. So it's actually like, how many other products might have similar formula or come from the same place that we actually don't know about?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Like that scares me.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes. But also I said to Kate off mic, our producer of the podcast earlier when we were talking about this, I'm like, it's a hard one because the brands trust the manufacturer and they trust the testing facilities because they're meant to be reputable.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Exactly.

[Joanna Fleming]

And the TGA is meant to be governing this stuff. Yeah. So is the onus on the brands, is it? Or should they feel like they can trust their manufacturer, especially if so many other skincare brands use the same one?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I don't think all the onus is on the individual brand, as you guys touched on in the previous episode. I do think the TGA need to step in and perhaps we need to review as a whole.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

How evaluating the effectiveness of sunscreen. What kills me in this scenario is, you know, we speak so much on this podcast and across the shameless media portfolio about the importance of sun safety messaging. And what I fear is, as we start to see more of these Trends unfold on TikTok of people tanning and people finding ways to make tanning culture cool again, it is absolutely not cool to tan. I honestly think this contributes negatively to people's sentiment and culture. Around tanning because it makes people feel like they can't trust the products that are supposed to be protected them. There is a level of complacency that kicks in. Then there's a level of like, oh, well, it's too hard.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Especially amongst young people. Maybe not so much not saying that young people aren't critical thinkers. The hard thing is as well with young people is it's really easy for them to sit there and go, oh, it's all just too hard. I'm just going to move on or I'm just not going to wear sunscreen at all.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I do think it is doing more damage in, in that broader sense and that breaks my heart because I feel like this will play out into a bigger issue.

[Joanna Fleming]

Totally.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I feel like these brands as well are very much in the zeitgeist and it was like these brands speaking to that consumer. And I want to say the same thing. I don't want to say that the younger generation is not critical in their thinking, but I do think it does kind of, again, make it all a bit too hard. It's like, are they going to go to other brands for their sunscreen? Probably not. Where do they get their information from often? Sometimes social media outlets. So is this enough to actually scare them altogether? I don't know.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think it's just a reminder that we need to start reinforcing sun safety messaging more than ever now.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Totally slip slop.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

So not just on the brands, it's on media personalities, it's on brands, it's on, you know, industry bodies to be reinforcing sun safety messaging now more than ever, especially with what's going on.

[Joanna Fleming]

I also think it's on the TGA to lift the bans that they have on creators talking about sunscreen. Yes. Sorry, but if you can't even regulate the product yourself, at least let us talk about how important it is to use it.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Amen.

[Joanna Fleming]

SIS microphone Everyday who are also known for their mineral formulas have confirmed they do not use the same manufacturer. So their mineral mousse and pretty and zinc formulas are still available for sale and I have recommended those sunscreens to clients in their consultations. I'm not here to defend ultraviolet, but I do want to say I'm really disappointed in the outcome of those test results. Obviously that is not an ideal outcome. Yeah, it's really disappointing that people have been potentially wearing a sunscreen that has not been protecting them to the level that they thought they were. As we referenced on the previous discussion, it's an expensive Sunscreen, you know, you're not paying $10 for this. It's like, like 50 something bucks for a tube of sunscreen. So it is really disappointing. But I do feel the need to point out that this highlights a more systemic issue at play. It involves the manufacturers, it involves the testing facilities, and it very heavily falls on the TGA in this instance because there needs to be more auditing going on. There needs to be a thorough investigation that happens here and maybe that results in changes to SPF testing, but also in house SPF testing at the TGA to make sure that brands are not having to self report what their SPF has come back as. They can self report, but you need to be able to verify that before that product is available for sale.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, definitely.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

You've hit the nail on the head, Joe. It's a lot to digest. What's interesting looking at Ultraviolet situation as well is they have just recently expanded into the US market and whether or not this will have a negative impact on that expansion. So UV actually stocked in 592 Sephora stores. I believe they expanded into the US about six months ago. I feel it was a huge deal. I did a quick, quick Google search and went through all the Google news outlets of who was covering the Ultraviolet statement and the most recent statements from Choice and the tga. Most of it is Australian centric. There are only a trickle of international publications and international, more so international creators who are covering it. So I'd be curious to know if this is going to have anywhere near as much of an impact on the US market as what it does here. And Joe, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they also have different formula regulations?

[Joanna Fleming]

You literally read my mind. I'm just about to say, Ray, I should pull you up. There are different formulas in the US because some filters can't be used. But I believe that the Velvet Screen, I think it was called in the US not Lean Screen. They had different names but same formula that has also been pulled.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Oh, okay, so it has affected the U.S. yes.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I believe so. But who knows if it will achieve the same kind of, you know, media coverage as it has here. It seems like a very local issue. Of course, I don't know if it'll get the same backlash overseas, but obviously that's a serious concern for the brand when they're trying to branch into other markets to have a scandal like this. But I do feel that it's going to impact a lot more brands than we're going to know about.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Absolutely. And I think, as well now, like, I would love to know with these third parties, like, what is actually happening to them? Like, will they be named and shamed? Will they be called out? Will they be blacklisted from actually being able to produce certain sunscreens and, like, what actually happens to them?

[Joanna Fleming]

I would anticipate there's going to be a fining situation. It is known what this manufacturer is, and there's some more details coming out about that, but for legal reasons, we won't kind of delve into that in this episode, especially because not all of the information is available to us. God, this is complex. Yes. It's so murky. It's such a developing story. It's kind of annoying that we're doing this now. Like, I want all of the information. Yeah. I want to be able to form, like, you know, a thought, but I can't. It's just kind of like rambling to give you as much information as possible.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Because people are going to want transparency and they're going to continue to want answers. And it's like, how can you actually give them all the answers when it's just so layered and constantly evolving?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

We're definitely in the gray here.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. And I think from Ultraviolet's perspective, based on how this has all unfolded, and it really has fallen a lot on their brand, and they've now flagged that they feel quite confident in their other formulas. In their post that they did, they showed on a little graph where those SPF results came in. I think they now need to be very transparent and post what those results are for every single other one of their formulas, because I think that's what customers want to see. I want to see it.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Joanna Fleming]

I want to see what all of those testing results came back as, and I think that will be the thing that reassures people.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think that was a really reasonable question. That came up quite a lot in the comments that I saw as well in the post, that it felt quite fair to me. I also felt that graph was really helpful.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

As a visual explainer of how much these results varied and put that into context, because sometimes when you see numbers side by side, I know that sounds silly, but it's hard to visualize. What does that actually mean? I did find that graph quite helpful.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. I love a visual driver when numbers are involved.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

As we said, guys, this story is ever evolving. We are recording on a Monday, and this episode's going live on Wednesday. So there is more to come, and I'm sure we'll be picking this up again as it continues to evolve. Up next, we are going to be unpacking the year of Influencer engagements and how they're monetizing their weddings. But first, let's hear from today's sponsor.

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[Annika Joshi Smith]

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[Annika Joshi Smith]

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[Annika Joshi Smith]

All right guys, so a recent article in the Cut written by Olivia Torber explored the rise of influencer engagements in the US and more broadly, how many American influencers are now monetizing and mining their weddings for content. I know I came in hot at the top opinions on this. I really set myself up, but I just wanted to give a bit of context about what the Cut feature actually said. So Olivia writes, this summer, it seemed every week brought yet another influencers fiance era announcement, complete with the pear shaped ring, a real filmed in a 90s camcorder or at least filtered to look that way, and a giddy champagne fueled caption. What really stands out is how these engagements are packed, shared and monetized. In a digital economy where engagement posts can drive real income, the proposal isn't just a personal market moment, it's a content opportunity. So Shameless actually touched on all this when covering influencer Jazz Smith's wedding back in May. And the Cut article points to Jaz's wedding, which was documented by her in minute detail online as kicking off a wave of influencer proposals and highly documented weddings. Do you guys remember this?

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

As the article explains, she posted over 20 Tik Toks on the day of the ceremony.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I'm like how? Honestly, I have a opinions.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

We're really leading into this quite strong. On the day of the ceremony, created a spreadsheet with 40 plus video ideas and had her assistant managing execution like a producer on set. And she didn't pretend any of it happened by accident. I had the wedding I had because this is my job, she explained. You guys helped pay for it. The article breaks down six high profile recent influencer engagements by aesthetic Beyonce identity ring details, viewer experience, rollout structure, and what Olivia calls the bridal monetization level.

[Joanna Fleming]

I loved that way of packaging up that social post. It was a carousel post and then it was a rating out of 5.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think it was a scorecard. It was essentially a scorecard. So according to her, that's a score that sums up how much content they posted, how professionally it was produced, and whether they use the moment to promote brands or products. It all begs the question, have influencers gone too far when it comes to documenting and monetizing their wedding? Are they actually enjoying the day or thinking about how it's all going to be shared and packaged and what sponsors they need to shout out?

[Joanna Fleming]

You know what, I actually respect that creator Jaz, though, for being really transparent about why she was sharing the level of content that she was sharing. She was like, I feel really connected to my audience and I feel that they deserve to be part of the day. I respect that. Yeah, I could never. But that level of production I could not do on my wedding day just purely out of stress. But I do feel like there are creators that just have zero boundaries in terms of what they share. They share their entire, entire life. Even really like tragic situations in their life, they're straight on and sharing it, which I can't personally relate to, but there are people that do it. And also if that's what you want to do on your wedding day, I kind of don't give a shit if that's what you want to do. I know that you have a different opinion, but I kind of just don't care what what they want to do.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I want to be really clear about what I define as monetization. For me, as someone who just got married, I would say using a wedding as like a springboard or enhancing your online social presence through not pay partnerships, but the choice to mine your life. And that's usually what I think about in the context of this article and the cut and how much they have mined their personal life. And Joe, you've touched on this as well in terms of sharing everything feels like it's at that point where you might as well just Invite the community to your wedding. Look, my only defense for Jas Smith is she did actually do a giveaway on her TikTok where she gifted all of the money she made from the TikTok creative fund to two brides.

[Joanna Fleming]

Oh, did she? She did. So nice.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I know, it was sweet.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I also thought that was very deliber of the cut to leave that out because they went as far as to quote her in that same video where she actually dedicated her wedding to her community in that same video. That's where she announced the giveaway. So I did think that was a little bit strategic by the cut and a little bit misleading. Didn't love that. In saying that, I do find it incredibly concerning how much people are willing to mine their lives and share so much and just forfeit any form of intimacy or absolutely, absolutely privacy on one of the most special days of your life. And I'm not saying it's the most special day, but as someone who just got married, there is not a world where I could have done what these creators have done.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I literally could not imagine it. Like first of all, where the hell do you have the time? Like on our wedding day, maybe Call me old fashioned, but we were so present. It's also fucking overwhelming and trying to take it all in and actually soak up the magic of your wedding day. Let alone having cameras filming you or thinking about content and your spreadsheet. Like, did I tick that box? I'm like, there was no way that was on my mind whatsoever. If anything, I didn't get enough photos and I was like, oh shit at the end of it. But I have the memories, I have, I guess, what the day was about. And I feel like we're seeing this constant shift to weddings become PR moments. Like this is the most, one of the most intimate, most beautiful, loving, important days of your life. I can't imagine a world where James would be like, absolutely hun. We'll get that sponsor. Just your content. Like, who cares about our special day? Like not happening. It's wild to me. I literally couldn't, I can't make sense of it.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It's interesting. The US as well is just another base you've got to remember as well. The TikTok creator economy is huge over there.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

The reason why they're doing this is because they make money from the videos that they're posting once they hit a certain view. We don't have that in Australia. Yeah, we don't have that available to creators and there are still creators out there who are absolutely going to town on the socials when it comes to their weddings. And I'm not going to sit here in my ivory tower and say, I didn't post about my wedding. I didn't talk about my wedding. I, I did, but I felt like.

[Joanna Fleming]

And we liked it.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And this is the thing, though, it's also really interesting, the dynamic with social media because the algorithm rewards you for doing that. The engagement that you get on wedding content. I don't know if you've had this, Joe, already being in the planning phase, it is quite high. If you're an influencer or you're a creator and your entire career is built on engagement, of course you're going to look at this and see it as an opportunity to monetize and make more money, but also transition into a. A different phase of influencer.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And I feel like that's what we're seeing a lot of as well play out in the US specifically. Again, I'm not sitting here in my ivory tower saying I didn't post. I shared a lot of moments from my wedding and throughout that process, but I had very clear boundaries around what I would share and what I wouldn't. Yeah, there was also a really clear boundary for us. We would not work with any brand in a paid partnership capacity on our wedding day or in the lead up to our wedding because we really wanted to protect and preserve, deserve what our wedding stood for. And at the end of the day, it stood for the love that we share between Louis and I, my husband, but also the people that were in the room, in my opinion. I felt if I brought brands into that process, it would be taking away from that love in the room and distracting me from what was most important.

[Joanna Fleming]

Absolutely. Yeah. That's been a really strict boundary for me as well, because brands have known, obviously my wedding's coming up and I have been approached by brands to do stuff on the wedding day. No way would I take on a piece of sponsored content for my wedding day. Even if it was something, something I was going to be doing anyway. Even if it was like the exact skincare brand that I was using. I don't want to have to be thinking about that because I work as a content creator, so that's. If I was in any other job. I'm not going working on my fucking wedding day. Am I going to be so focused? Like, I already know I'm going to be really anxious and really overstimulated. The last thing I want to think about is trying to fit a brief for A brand. I'm quite a private person. As much as I do this podcast and I create content, I actually am quite inherently private. So much so that I wanted to have a private ceremony that didn't quite go down with Adrian. So I had to compromise. But yeah, I was really strict about that. I do want to be transparent that I've received some discounts or industry discounts from my vendors that I was going to choose anyway because I'll be sharing content from my wedding, obviously organically. And I do want to acknowledge the privilege that comes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Absolutely.

[Joanna Fleming]

That obviously not everyone can get discounts on things they're paying for for their weddings. And it's fucking expensive.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I think that's a really good point to make, Jo, because when you're talking about in the context of when you were a creator, even if you're someone like me who's in the industry and has connections with different suppliers and different brands. Brands. I'm talking about people who are doing deliverables on their wedding day in a pay capacity. I'm not referring to like gifting or discounting, because even myself, you know, I worked with a few brands leading up to it who I had been a paying customer for a while. Absolutely a privilege to be in a position where you can do that. But I also think there is a line in the sand around what those boundaries are of how much you're willing to bring totally, you know, and deliver on behalf of brands.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes, for sure.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

One of the biggest things is for me is one, I just couldn't imagine giving up that much creative control to an external party on, like, my day. Like, I had such a vision and like anyone tried to, even James tried to impact that vision. I was like, I'm not coming down the aisle kidding. But like, it's just imagine giving away, like, all of these intimate moments, these touch points, everything about your day and doing it to fill a brief. I feel like for me, that's where I'm like, yeah, it doesn't resonate because.

[Joanna Fleming]

If it's a paid post, they have some creative control over that. Like, there's a brief that goes with that and you may not get. Get to control exactly what that looks like, but when you're creating the content yourself and it's natural content from the day that you're choosing to share, you then get to choose the bits that you share. Like, even when I posted about our engagement, I posted the video of Adrian proposing because he filmed it, but I didn't post the audio of that. That's only Something that me and my family and my friends have seen is what he said to me, because that's very personal and I didn't want everyone seeing that. I don't think I'll probably post, like, our vows because that's also very personal and I didn't want to do that in front of the people that are going to be there anyway. It's quite scary with everyone.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I'm there a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. I do want to say again, I'm not judging anyone if that is their choice. That's very much their main income. It's just not something that I feel I could have done on my day.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Totally.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes. And I think it's important to mention that you and I are quite similar in that way. I think there are people, though, that are like, this is my life. And the reason that I'm able to have this life, like Jaz said, is because of my. My audience. These people that follow me and support me and, you know, want to comment on my stuff and engage with my stuff, and I feel I owe it to them. And that might be the case for some other creators. I don't see it happen a lot in Australia, if I'm being honest.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah. And coming back to the article itself and even the creators that were featured in that article, I think there are a couple of obvious things to me. First and foremost, all of them are really similar in terms of, I would say, their wealth status, but also predominantly white creators as well. Very similar aesthetic, very similar audience and demographic in that New York influencer landscape. I thought that was a really interesting observation. It's interesting that they're saying they're coming from a place of no judgment because I found the whole article incredibly judgmental.

[Joanna Fleming]

I mean, they did a number. We scored them. So, yeah, that's literally what judges do.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

So, sure, you can set your intentions, but in terms of what my interpretation was very judgmental.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Is it also setting up, I guess, brides to be for, like, false realities and, like, thinking that this is what weddings look like? I appreciate the transparency over what's sponsored and what has been gifted to you or whatever, but these are also getting so elaborate. Like, Jaz's wedding was beautiful. It looked like so much fun. Great time. So elaborate. Like, this isn't sometimes real life and what your average bride can afford. I don't know. There's all this messaging around it that.

[Joanna Fleming]

It'S just a lot more to unpack in our wedding season.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, we need to do another one.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, I. We did talk about this a bit in the previous wedding series that we did, but I honestly think there is so much more space for us to go deeper. How much wedding culture has exploded on social media? We only scratched the surface in the initial series. It's a trillion dollar industry.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It contributes to so many jobs. It creates so much positivity, but at the same time, the swarm of wedding culture on social media that I'm exposed to even post wedding, I am seriously overwhelmed. And I do think it is breeding this really toxic relationship of comparison as well.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah, I'm three months out and I'm really starting to feel the pressure because I haven't organized a second dress either. And I'm like, do I have to have a second dress?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

No.

[Joanna Fleming]

Is that gonna be enough? Am I gonna regret not doing a second dress? What am I gonna win in my hand?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Tell you what, I can say one thing in full confidence to you. I don't have a single regret for my wedding. Even the things that I, I thought I was like second guessing, I'm ing and arring at the end of the day, the experience you walk away from is so beautiful and it's so loving. All that other doesn't matter.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay. It doesn't matter. All right.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And you'll feel good after.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay, I'm going to double down on the second dress then. You do not need it.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

It's again, it's just like it's a nice to have, not a necessity.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

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[Rhiannon Joyce]

I'm like, tell me how you really seriously.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

This is a breath of fresh air from Alex, so thank you for that. So speaking in front of a live audience, Alex said, I'm one of the only ones that are left. All the cool people are gone and I'm hanging up in Bergdorf Goodman and in Harrods and it's like, suck that. You know what I mean? And still to this day, I don't have a business in Australia. I don't stock in one store, but I stock in 250 around the world. And I'm shot by magazines all over the world, but not by an Australian one. This is my home. So I say that it doesn't put bother me, but it really pisses me off. Very candid.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Alex is far from the only successful Australian fashion designer to find more success and support in an overseas market. Think of labels like Zimmerman, who have found staggering success thanks to their overseas expansions, with the US now being their largest market. Of course, part the reason for Australian labels finding greater recognition and success overseas is that the market sizes are much bigger and there's more infrastructure to support their growth and development. Some things we do really lack in the Australian market. And I feel like, Anika, you're gonna have a lot to add to this.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I've got things to say.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Time to Shine, an Australian financial review feature written by Lauren Sams explores this phenomenon of local labels being better known overseas than in Australia, writing that succeeding in the local fashion industry is not always easy. As Realization Par co founder Till Talbot says, California has a bigger population than Australia, and so it stands to reason that there are homegrown fashion brands with sizable global followings that Australians themselves are missing out on. There's also the impact of Tall Poppy syndrome. This is something we've discussed on the show before at length, and we're about to do more of it. Australians often feel a need to cut down people who put themselves out there and back themselves. Something Alex alludes to in this interview. What did you guys think about what Alex said?

[Joanna Fleming]

I thought it was quite interesting because I've only recently seen Alex Perry doing a lot of advertising for their new ready to wear bridal collection. Because I've been looking for, as I just mentioned, and I'm like, I haven't seen them around for a long time. Yeah, it just dawned on me because I do remember a time when they were quite big in Australia.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, he is so iconic. Like, Alex Perry has been around since the 90s. And if we go like right back to when Australian Fashion Week started, he was one of the first inaugural designers to actually showcase his collections and consistently show. And I do think it is just such a shame to see that he doesn't have representation in his home country. But this isn't isolated. It happens so often in our industry. And I think for me what it actually really does elevate illustrate is just how competitive and cutthroat the Australian fashion industry is. We see it firsthand at sage like our biggest market by miles is the us like that is where majority of our revenue comes in. The Australian market is still really important, but the opportunities are actually endless overseas. And it's actually really interesting because I think since pre Covid even we started to notice a real shift in the sweet spot of your rrp. So you used to be able to sell a dress for $500 and consumers would not blink an eye. Like that would be easy. In today's day and age with the cost of living Crisis, it's like 250 to 350 and consumers still want to know what is the composition of that piece. You know, are there any sustainability elements or anything that can be called out in stores to really help sell that product to customers.

[Joanna Fleming]

And we didn't have as much fast fashion.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

No.

[Joanna Fleming]

Back in the day.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

And it's like who's wearing it? They want to know what notable names. There are so many things now that go into sales and I guess wholesale in general as well. And I would actually kind of consider consider Alex Perry, more of a luxury brand. His price points are high, so I don't think that that can't be acknowledged in this as well because it is so hard to place and position RRPs that high, especially when designs are more intricate. His pieces are really sculptural. They're really beautiful and intricate in design. So I do think as well to sell those pieces on an ongoing basis, it is a little bit tricky. So I'm not surprised with this placement being at more profile high end stores. But what it did kind of really point out to me as well is this is just happening a lot more in this luxury space. Like we are saying we had Harold's here and at clubs like we've seen really beautiful stores try to open in our market and they unfortunately haven't succeeded. And again, I think we are open to so much choice. Online shopping also means it's so accessible for consumers to buy pieces overseas. And we also shop around like we are such savvy shoppers now, myself included. But it honestly has happened with other luxury brands like Tony Matachewski he used to be such a big Noah name here and I think he, he's still represented in David Jones, which is great. But those intricate details, all of those beautiful pieces are more readily available overseas than they are here.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

The other point I want to make to that is we don't have a lot of red carpet moments or event moment opportunities other than going to a black tie wedding or a ball. When are you going to be able to wear a gown? And Alex Perry's gowns retail for, I think most of them retail for 2000 Australian dollars plus like very expensive. Expensive. They are readily available in a lot of international retailers. Net a porte Motor Operandi. These are really popular online retailers, all catering to an international market. Yeah, locally I can honestly think of three times I would need a gown and it would be attending a red carpet event, which isn't really happening. Yeah, I'm going to a black tie wedding or a ball. Those are the three reasons why I'd need a gown. So I also think the demand for this type of, type of fashion is not as strong in the Australian market as what it would be internationally.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

And do you know what's so hard as well? I think the rise of rental platforms. Like there are so many dominating our wholesale landscape. Like, I'm not even kidding, when we've got buyers coming into the showroom, they.

[Joanna Fleming]

Will always ask us if I'm going.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

To invest in this brand or this garment. Can you guarantee to me it's not going to be available on rental platforms?

[Joanna Fleming]

How can you guarantee me?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

And we can't because at the end of the day, we can intentionally not sell to rental stores within Australia. But at the same time, there's nothing to stop a consumer going and buying a size run of that dress from a rental store. It's so competitive now. It's so hard to manage. And there actually are no legalities around it as well. So there's no protection for brands unless they see an order pop up and they choose not to ship it. Yeah, but it's really hard. Like we also actually saw something similar happened. Do you guys remember Nicholas, the label? It was from Green with MVs, Irene, Nicholas. They are huge in the US and no presence here. Like it doesn't just happen as well in luxury, it happens in contemporary. So many brands have such a stronger presence overseas and are backed overseas and they don't actually have a present in their home region. That's really interesting.

[Joanna Fleming]

Well, you mentioned Zimmerman before and when I was thinking more about that as you guys were talking, I Was like, well, Zimmerman kind of had its run here. You know, it was really popular. Probably like 2010 to 2014 maybe. Like, is it just that we got sick of it? And then they were like, okay, well we've got to continue expanding the brand, so we're going to go to the US and now it's continued to be popular over there.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

I have some insider scoop on that one.

[Joanna Fleming]

Do you?

[Rhiannon Joyce]

But they intentionally chose to pull out of wholesale from the Australian market with a focus on their just bricks and mortar placements. And obviously you make more margin as well when you do have a retail presence rather than having to sell at wholesale. So that was an intentional choice. But the international space is what their focus is. Yeah, yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Again, coming back to the price point conversation, I do remember distinctively a time when Zimmerman priced out the Australian market market as well. Unless you were someone who obviously had a high disposable income or very true, could afford their gowns. Similar to your point arnica around, you know, used to be able to sell a dress for 500 and now everyone expecting at 250. I honestly think Zimmerman went the opposite. Used to be able to buy a Zimmerman dress for 500. Now you can't buy one for less than 1500 Australian dollars. I don't want to say intentionally. I would assume that they've deliberately gone down that path to appeal to a certain clientele. Also international, nationally, they seem to be doing very well. They have a lot of bricks and mortars in Europe. In the US when I was in Capri, they had a beautiful boutique in the thick of the town.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

You know, right in between all of the designer household names. So, yeah, they're definitely going after a certain clientele. So that's an interesting.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

It's so interesting. It's actually like, honestly, we talk about this all the time in wholesale. What it really points out is how you do need to diversify your partnerships, your retail strategy. And like, even with the US now and the tariffs that have come into place, where you're constantly looking for new markets to sell into, the Middle East, Europe, Asia have become so imperative for our business. And not all brands have robust strategies in place to tackle all these challenges that pop up. So it's just identifying for us how important it is to constantly diversify and just reassess all of your partnerships and strategies.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I want to come back to the tall poppy syndrome comment. Do you think there is an element of tall poppy syndrome playing into this conversation like out of are led to?

[Joanna Fleming]

I think so, yeah. I just think That's Australian culture. It doesn't matter what you do, what industry you're in, if you're successful, people aren't going to want to see it.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Yeah, I double down on that as well. I feel like at the end of the day, like sometimes there's this also awful mentality about brands having their moment and having their day. There's always newness, there's always new people coming along, undercutting. We talk about dupe culture. There's so much going on and I just feel like tall poppy syndrome is so real and relevant in this conversation.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

In the YouTube clip that I watched as well, Alex also mentioned that he wasn't featuring a lot in Australian publications and he didn't get a lot of support from Australian publications. My take on that would be that across the board in media, a lot of media publications are having to really rely on advertising dollars to be able to operate. And a lot of the time, a lot of these traditional media publications are leaning on the advertising advertisers for revenue to be able to keep these magazines in, you know, their digital presence afloat, keep people in their jobs, which generally does equate to editorial influence. It also equates to guaranteed features in magazines. So if you're not willing to spend money and pay up from an advertiser point of view, in a lot of these publications, they're not willing to give you the space. And because the Australian market is so small, my assumption would be that there is a lot more pressure on these magazines, magazines and these news publication outlets to feature brands who are spending money in advertising.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Which is maybe making it a bit hard for him to get that space.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah. Also, wasn't he on Australian Next Top Model?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

He was, yeah. Flashback.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yes. Maybe slightly like delayed cancel culture.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

True. I feel like a lot of those videos had a response on TikTok.

[Joanna Fleming]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

The Australian Next Top Model and America's Next Top Model franchise is just mind blowing and, like, very fascinating. Yeah, it scares me.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

It's frightful.

[Joanna Fleming]

Okay, well, that is a very long episode for you. Hopefully everyone enjoyed that. Sorry we couldn't stop yapping, but there was a lot to discuss. So that is all for this week's episode of Stylish. Thank you so much for joining us. And of course, thank you very much to you, Annika Joshi Smith and you, Rhiannon Joyce.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Thank you for having me. It was a very meaty one, but I really enjoyed being involved, involved in that conversation.

[Joanna Fleming]

Oh, we love having you here. Thanks. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime. At style-ishamelessmedia.com or you can slide into our DMs over at Stylish Pod. And we can't forget to thank our audio engineer, Mike Liberale, and the shameless media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. We'll be right back with you next Wednesday. See you then.

[Rhiannon Joyce]

Bye.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

See you guys. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land.

[Joanna Fleming]

Always was, always will be, aboriginal, eternal land.

[Ruby (Host of Inherited)]

Hello, it's Ruby here, the host of Inherited, and I'm popping up to tell you about my conversation with award winning writer Lech Blaine. I spoke to Lech about his idiosyncratic upbringing and the Christian fanatics who tried to kidnap his foster siblings. He has written about it so, so beautifully in his latest book, Australian Gospel. But here is a sneak peek from our conversation.

[Lech Blaine]

Yeah, I just remember visceral fear and the sort of fear where you kind of. Even when I was older, even when the Shelleys were in different countries or I was still waiting for them to show up all the time. When I started to look into their backgrounds, I realized, wow, like, they're fascinating. Like, not just in terms of who they became, but who they were before that. And so I just really wanted to know how they change. Like, how does that happen? Like, I was just on a human level, I was like, just fascinated. How did those two people become these two people? And that was really kind of the start of me looking at this story as a potential book.

[Ruby (Host of Inherited)]

And before you go, you'll also want to hear my chat with Home and Away star Tessa James. Here she speaks about the moment she was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma at 23.

[Tessa James]

It was traumatic. Yeah, it was. It was a lot. I mean, in the beginning, it's kind of like a lot around it, you know, everyone, everyone's like, I'm so sorry, are you okay? And all of that kind of stuff. But as it goes on, it went on for six months, like, that became my life, my new normal. And, you know, as you're doing treatment, you become less and less of a person, basically. So not that it has any similarity to acting, but it was a similar thing that I would kind of say to myself, like, before I go into an audition, like, yes, you can do this, you know, And I would go in and I would really get the courage to go into that room, and I would do that every time that I would go into, in to get treatment, because, you know, the first, second time you go and you don't really know what's happening, but third, fourth, like, you know what you're going into. And so that was. That was really difficult. I think it took me a really long time to get my sense of self back. And it. And it wasn't even the same sense of self. I wasn't. I was a different person. I was a new. A new me. And I think that that took a bit of time to get used to as well.

[Ruby (Host of Inherited)]

You can listen to both of these conversations in full, just search Inherited on your favorite podcast app. And we're on Instagram and TikTok as well at Inherited the Pod. And we'll be back with another episode next Tuesday, so we'll see you then.