The engagement party dividing the internet

Summary

Style-ish Podcast – Episode Summary

Podcast: Style-ish (Shameless Media)
Episode: The engagement party dividing the internet
Date: October 28, 2025
Hosts: Madison Sullivan Thorpe, Joanna Fleming, Rhiannon Joyce

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Overview

This lively episode centers around hot-button fashion news: the internet-dividing engagement party of influencer Danielle Bernstein, the groundbreaking appointment of designer Grace Wales Bonner as Hermès Menswear Creative Director, and the mysterious “Group 7” TikTok trend. The hosts—Madison, Jo, and Rae—bring passionate, knowledgeable, and often humorous perspectives to each topic, providing listeners with a blend of cultural critique, personal anecdotes, and industry insights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Vogue World: Hollywood – Fashion’s Modern-Spectacle (01:20–03:43)

• Madison introduces Vogue World’s Hollywood event, noting confusion about its purpose and discovering it’s a charity fundraiser.
• Hosts discuss its evolution and Anna Wintour’s role in cultivating it as a legacy event akin to the Met Gala (02:54).
• Nicole Kidman’s presence as both opener and closer was a highlight:
  “Talk about a revenge dress. We got it on the catwalk today.” – Madison (03:12)

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2. Swaps of the Week: Cool Content, Meaningful Connections, and Binge-Worthy TV (04:01–08:32)

Rae:

• Recommends creator and substack writer Alexis Barber, praising her sharp marketing insights and honest creator economy commentary (04:13–04:59).

Madison:

• Advocates for “mundane activities with friends” (like errands, markets, and movie nights), arguing these shared moments are deeply satisfying (05:08–05:56).

Jo:

• Recommends season two of “Nobody Wants This” on Netflix, noting sharp product placement targeting “marketing girlies” and cameo appearances by Leighton Meester (06:06–07:43).

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3. Danielle Bernstein’s Engagement Party Dress & Shoppable Links Controversy (08:43–21:58)

Summary (08:43–11:34)

• Danielle Bernstein’s vintage Kim Cassis couture dress split opinions online.
• Greater controversy: Her viral TikTok detailing a curated shoppable dress registry for engagement party guests, allegedly to streamline styling and avoid duplicates.
• Raised questions: Assumptions about guests' budgets, body types, and possible personal profit via affiliate links.

Hosts' Reactions & Analysis (11:34–21:58)

• Rae is openly unimpressed, calling it “a way to try and control the aesthetic under the guise of being helpful” (13:35).
• Madison critiques performative wedding culture, seeing Bernstein’s approach as curation and control, dressed up as helpfulness (13:43).
• Jo plays devil’s advocate, suggesting outside pressures and good intentions could be at play, but maintains skepticism about the profit angle (13:44–14:45).
• Affiliate Link Ethics: All agree that transparency and accessibility are crucial, and assume shoppable links likely generate kickbacks – not all guests may know this (14:52–18:42).
• Personal Experiences:
  • Rae and Madison have received Pinterest boards for guidance, finding them occasionally useful (16:53–17:41).
  • Jo is clear: “Dress code is enough. Give a dress code. That’s all the guest has to adhere to.” (16:19)
• Quote:
  “Anything wedding related will always, always have debates surrounding it. Especially now when they're just becoming like full-blown productions. This made me feel icky. I can't lie.” – Madison (19:21)

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4. Grace Wales Bonner’s Appointment as Hermès Menswear Creative Director (20:11–30:32)

Significance & Impact (20:11–23:45)

• Bonner is the first Black woman to lead design at a major fashion house (20:53).
• Lauded for transforming menswear, winning major awards, and collaborating with Adidas and Stüssy.

Culture & Industry Analysis (21:58–29:50)

• Shocking gender disparity in fashion leadership:
  • “In the industry, nearly 90% of top designers are men.” – Madison (22:46)
• Rae highlights Bonner’s exceptional artistry and cross-disciplinary creativity (22:54–23:29).
• Jo celebrates her youth (35) and simultaneous continuation of her label (23:32–23:45).
• Madison admires that it’s Hermès making the move, emphasizing the brand’s tradition of “trust[ing] craft and craftsmen” (24:29).
• Personal dream realized: Bonner previously named Hermès as her “dream house” in 2019 (25:39–26:25).
• The hosts debate why women remain rare atop major houses, naming systemic sexism, boardroom composition, and industry inflexibility for family life (27:07–28:44).
• Discussion of (Male) Gaze:
  “There is this real, ‘Oh, they understand women.'…We don’t see that same languaging around women for womenswear.” – Madison (28:44–29:38)
  • Excitement for how Bonner will bring a fresh, possibly more feminine, vision to menswear (30:10–30:32).

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5. TikTok Trend Deep Dive: What Is "Group 7"? (31:26–39:48)

What Happened? (31:26–32:32)

• Viral trend created by musician Sophia James as a marketing ploy for her single “So Unfair”: seven TikToks, each “assigning” viewers a group based on which video the algorithm served them.
• “Group 7” became a badge of (supposed) popularity and exclusivity:
  “Group 7 became…the digital social club of sorts. It’s now become the most watched video of the seven, with over 30 million views.” – Rae (33:03)

Dissection & Reactions (33:58–38:08)

• Hosts discuss how the “club” phenomenon took off, with brands quickly jumping on the trend (36:25).
• Despite massive TikTok reach, the tactic generated only modest Spotify streams (36:44–36:56).
• The marketing genius:
  “She wasn’t like, ‘Hey guys, go stream my new song.’ And she didn't have to make a dance for it. She created seven pieces of content with the same song…It's a genius way to get a song out there at a time when people want to be included in a club.” – Madison (35:19–36:12)
• Social psychology unpacked:
  • Madison argues it’s about community; Jo insists it’s more about exclusivity and micro-cliques (38:09–39:14), e.g.:
    “This is all around the exclusivity. People love to be part of a club that not everyone can be in.” – Jo (38:55)
• Final take: uncertain if Group 7 will translate to ongoing relevance for Sophia James, but all agree the campaign was exceptionally clever (39:40–39:48).

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Vogue World’s purpose:
  “I can't help but feel like [Anna Wintour] wants something kind of like what she's done with the Met Gala, but something she gets to create to cement her legacy.” – Madison (02:54)

• On the “shoppable links” drama:
  “At the end of the day, I still think it's odd. The assumption is that a lot of these links were affiliate links as well. So are you also profiting your friends' purchases?” – Rae (14:36)

• On gender in fashion:
  “How did we get from the bottom of the pyramid being so strong and held by female to the top being held by men?” – Madison (21:58)

• On Bonner’s significance:
  “This is a monumental moment in fashion and she is so deserving of this position…She's also not just an incredible fashion designer...an incredible artist…So I'm so excited.” – Rae (22:54)

• On “Group 7” as a trend:
  “It really is. I just love this tactic from her. I feel sad that I'm not in group seven...” – Jo (36:12)

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Notable Moments & Recurring Themes

• Rae’s “Annika energy” outfit, light banter about fashion influences (00:34–01:18).
• Meta-awareness: The hosts critique influencer culture while acknowledging their own professional proximity and personal participation (12:24–13:02).
• Ongoing debate about community versus exclusivity, both online and offline.
• Blunt takes on marketing tactics in streaming/media ("Cash that check" – Madison, 07:53).
• Recognition that trends (especially on TikTok) move fast, and brands tend to kill the vibe (36:25–36:33).

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Timestamps – Important Segments

• Vogue World Segment: 01:20–03:43
• Swaps of the Week: 04:01–08:32
• Danielle Bernstein Engagement Party Discussion: 08:43–21:58
• Grace Wales Bonner/Hermès Segment: 20:11–30:32
• Group 7 TikTok Discussion: 31:26–39:48

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Tone and Style

Conversational, witty, and at times self-deprecating. The hosts balance industry expertise with approachable banter, often poking fun at themselves while digging into serious fashion, cultural, and social commentary.

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In Summary

This episode unpacks viral fashion controversies, celebrates diversity-shifting industry news, and decodes digital phenomena, bringing informed and entertaining perspectives to each topic. Listeners leave with a greater understanding of the nuances in influencer culture, fashion industry gender politics, and innovative digital marketing, all while feeling like part of a fun, chatty group (even if they aren’t in “Group 7”).

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Target. Stylish event dressing to get you top to toe ready for the festive season.

[C]

This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, lifestyle, brand and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe. My co hosts today are Joanna Fleming and Rhiannon Joyce.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Hello, ladies.

[C]

Happy Wednesday, listeners.

[B]

I'm loving Rae's outfit today.

[A]

Jo said I look like Annika.

[B]

Yes, she is Socality Annika. She's got, like, we would call maybe this a parachute pants.

[A]

Parachute pants, yeah. Also one of Annika's brands. One of others, yes.

[B]

And a black tank. And then she's got a little black bolero over the top, a chunky silver necklace. She just looks very cool.

[C]

And the slick hair. You look great.

[A]

Thanks, guys.

[C]

But it's giving big Arnica energy too. We were like, does the chair solidify the outfit?

[A]

I mean, biggest compliment in the world to say I'm giving Annika energy. Honestly, that needs to be put on a T shirt. Annika Energy.

[B]

Yeah. Mine, I would wear the pointe shoe. I don't think I would be in a point heel.

[C]

No. We need to just swap you out for, like, a Solomon. And I think we're done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Love. Yeah.

[C]

Sorted.

[A]

How are you guys?

[C]

I'm good. I feel like we were, like, so set on what we were going to talk about today. And then this morning we got Vogue World content rolling in. Have you guys caught any of this?

[A]

I've seen a lot, but mostly from individual creators that I follow. So Hailey Bieber and her stylist had been dropping some outfit pics. Holy crap. She looked hot.

[C]

She looked unbelievable. And her glam was arguably the best glam I've seen her in today.

[B]

I'll be honest, I haven't seen anything about this yet today, but it is Monday as of our time of recording, so probably by tomorrow my feed will be absolutely saturated with his content.

[C]

Okay, so for some context, I saw Vogue World and I was like, I've seen this a couple of years now. I'm like, I think it started 2022, 2023. But I was like, what actually is this? So I went on a bit of a Google deep dive. Turns out it's actually to raise money for charity, which you wouldn't know looking at that.

[A]

I didn't know that.

[C]

It's like Catwalk meets. This year it was about celebrating film and tv, which is why it was in Hollywood. But last year it was about sports and was in Paris coinciding around the time of The Olympics, like, it's a bit confusing.

[B]

I thought it was Olympic related.

[C]

You're like a vogue Olympic event. Every four years we have one.

[A]

It definitely feels like a spectacle. Like it's a moment. But I never really understood the purpose of it. I did not know it was for a charity. I feel like that piece hasn't really cut through to me.

[C]

Yeah. So the whole idea is that they're raising money for charity. I think tickets last year were like 17, €1800 to be sitting in the third row.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

So it's expensive. It's definitely like you want to be seen to be there.

[A]

It also seems like Anna Wintour is really, really pushing it. Yeah, they really want it to work.

[C]

I can't help but feel like she wants something kind of like what she's done with the Met Gala, but something that she gets to create to kind of cement her legacy. When she goes.

[A]

It's funny you say that because legacy was the word that was in my head. It does feel like she wants this to be the thing that she's known for and really be, you know, that was me. I did that.

[C]

Yeah. Look, all things aside, all confusion, Nicole Kidman opened and closed the show with Baz Luhrmann. And girl, did she eat, like. Talk about, like, revenge dress. We got it on the catwalk today.

[B]

I'm so spending my evening deep in this content.

[C]

Yeah, I want to. I want a little Texas from you later tonight once you've done one.

[A]

Also, Nicole Kidman being everywhere is also the ultimate revenge. Side note.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, 1,000%. He's not opening his phone and avoiding seeing Nicole Kidman. And I love that.

[A]

I'm here for it.

[B]

All right, well, today we're covering the hot topic of influencer Danielle Bernstein's engagement party. Why Grace Wells Bonner being appointed creative director of Hermes Menswear is a big deal and we'll be unpacking. What the heck? Group 7 is on TikTok. But first, what do we each want to swap in this week? You two can fight for who goes.

[A]

No, you go.

[C]

No, no, I insist.

[A]

Oh, ok, fine. Really put up a fight there. I'm swapping in a person to follow this week and technically a substack as well.

[B]

So.

[A]

Alexis Barber. Have you guys heard of her? She is an amazing creator. She actually used to work for YouTube. She did actually work on launching YouTube shorts, so she seriously switched on Great wreck for the marketing girlies. She's also a creator on the side. She has an amazing substack one called two online and Another called Too Smart for this. But I actually came across her on TikTok and I've done a full deep dive and I'm now obsessed. Gone back and read a few of her sub stacks. One of the most recent and my favorite that I've read so far is called the Creator. Economy is real. Log on accordingly. She is just so smart and switched on and also just cuts through the crap, which I'm really gravitating towards people on the Internet right now who have an opinion and just cut through. I love her. I cannot recommend her enough.

[C]

Oh, my God. Definitely checking that out. And also obsessed with that name. That's really quite witty.

[A]

Cool name.

[C]

Yeah, really clever name. Is it my turn now?

[A]

Yeah, your turn.

[C]

So mine is a bit of a concept. I'm really loving swapping in a concept at the moment. I promise I'll go back to product next week, but it is to do mundane activities with your friends. So I. Yesterday, one of my girlfriends lives in my building. She's like, let's go watch a movie. Like, come upstairs, watch a movie. We just had our tracksuit pants on. Then we went to Yochi. The other week I went to Puran Market, which is the local food and grocery market on a Sunday. Just like the mundane things like, hey, I need to go to the post office. Do you want to come? Hey, do you want to get a coffee? Like, I know we love a wine bar, and don't get me wrong, I will never give those up. But just doing the most random things, like the IKEA trip, the Kmart shop, do it with a mate, make it a little bit more fun. And it's quite pleasing just to do really boring shit with your friends.

[A]

It is.

[B]

I fully agree with that. I love an errand with a friend.

[C]

Aaron with a friend. Oh, my God.

[A]

That's really what we're going to call.

[C]

It, Aaron With a Friend Aaron. It sounds like it could be a jingle. All right, Jo, what have you got for us?

[B]

Mine is season two of Nobody Wants this on Netflix.

[A]

I'm saving this because I'm traveling this week and I've downloaded it for the plane and I cannot wait.

[B]

So I watched all 10 episodes over the weekend because I had a bit of free time and I decided this is. This is now my time. I've got the TV to myself. I'm watching all 10 episodes. I loved season one. Like, it was probably one of my favorite shows of the year when that came out, I loved it. So I binged all of season two. The product placement made Me chuckle. As marketing girlies on this podcast, I thought, oh, this one's not getting past me. The Estee Lauder advance night repair on the nightstand. And then again when she's in the friend's bathroom, she steals a little bit of her advanced night repair as well.

[C]

Sneaky.

[B]

But I see through you.

[C]

Do you know what? Cash that check. Like, I'm obsessed with TV shows and movies being able to commercialize their product. And you know what? Kind of clever by Estee Lauder as well. Like snaps where it's due.

[B]

It is. I thought it was clever. And I loved that Leighton Meester made a cameo in the series as well because she's Adam Brody's real life wife.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was very funny seeing her in that series as not his wife.

[C]

You're on a full rhyme roster today. This is like your third rhyme of our episode, and I'm obsessed with it. Oh, I didn't hear Erin with a friend. That kind of rhymes. I don't know. Go with it, Go with it. La la la la la.

[A]

Are we clear about what rhyme, what a rhyme is?

[C]

You need to go back and watch a 60 Minutes interview Eminem, where he's like, auburn scoffridge. It just like makes the words up. Whatever. What?

[B]

She's really gone on a tangent.

[C]

We'll let her have it. We'll let her have it.

[B]

So I loved leighton Meester's little Chanel 2 piece in the series.

[A]

I saw that in a social cut down. Yeah, I haven't seen it.

[B]

It's really cute because the character she's playing, it just really ties into that outfit. And I kind of like the styling in this series. I think the way that they style Kristen Bell is quite interesting. I think the positioning of her character is really reflective of the outfits that they put her in. I don't know. I like the styling of it. And it's a very easy series to watch.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I'm excited. They're like 25, 26 minute episodes. Perfect. Like, the O.C. seth Girl in me is just alive and thriving so, so much.

[B]

I was absolutely a Seth girl. Yeah.

[C]

Till I die. You were a Ryan girl one. Yeah, I think I was. What?

[B]

Get out.

[A]

A little bit of bad boy energy for the bad girl. Re ra.

[C]

If the shoe fits in every color. Next, we're talking about Danielle Bernstein's engagement party drama. But that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

[B]

It's about that time of year where the invitations start rolling in again. We're planning our looks for upcoming weddings and birthdays and sending links to the group chat for approval. Party season has well and truly arrived, but it doesn't need to be overwhelming, you just need to know where to shop. Target is making it easier than ever to style looks for all of your upcoming social commitments with outfits for every occasion. Literally. Keep it chic in tailored black pants that can be styled a million different ways, or look out for elevated sets like their preview sparkle two piece mini skirt and top. There's stacks from Cult fave Lily loves, with the crown jewel of the collection being a diamante mini dress with a stunning bow back detail. Not to mention luxe footwear, a waterproof jewelry collection and playful clutches to round out your look. Whether it's for a wedding, family get together or garden party, Target has nailed event dressing this spring so you can get it sorted without the stress or expense. Shop now in store or online. And thank you so much to Target for making this episode of stylish possible. All right, so our first headline today is kind of dividing the Internet. I think everyone has an opinion on this if they've seen it. So Danielle Bernstein is an American influencer and she's the founder of We Will Watch. If you're not familiar with her already, but she has the Internet divided thanks to her engagement party dress. While some loved her vintage Kim Cassis couture gown, other commenters were pretty critical, saying the dress looked like a cheap costume. But this isn't the first time that she has created a little bit of a stir online. Actually, I would say that the engagement party dress is the least worried given the conversation we're about to have. But off the back of the engagement party dress discourse, the Cut published an article last week about Danielle's engagement party plans that sparked conversation when she created a TikTok about it in September last year. So in the video, she said she wanted to try something a little bit different for her engagement party. She said. I actually curated shoppable links to dresses that were so perfect for our theme and dress code to make it easier for my guests, the Cut said about this video. The idea, supposedly was that her guests could save time by following the recommendations if they happened to be in the market for DB approved cocktail attire. Once a guest bought one of the dresses, they would be removed from the registry to avoid any matching moments. She captioned the post did the shopping for my guests. If anyone wants something new, should I share the curation publicly? Commenters were unsurprisingly, pretty critical of Danielle's idea, commenting things like God Forbid someone wears something they already own. And did you profit off affiliate links, too? From there, the controversy only escalated, with prominent TikTok creators weighing in on it and several, like fashion tiktoker Massa Majo, wondering why Danielle had assumed her guest sizes, budgets and tastes. While it eventually dialed down, the discourse around the shoppable engagement party links has resurfaced because Danielle started sharing content from her engagement party. What do we make from this move to create a curated shoppable list of outfits for your guests? Ray, you are smirking so hard.

[A]

Guys, sometimes I'm so grateful that this podcast is not full length video because my facial expressions, like when you're reading Joy, I think I did it last week as well. I'm just like preemptively ready to go by showing you my facial expressions.

[C]

It's also like Ray and I avoiding eye contact when we're both going like, are you catching a load of this?

[A]

So I'm just not impressed. I find.

[C]

I know where you're going here. Look, can I. Can I jump in, jump in, jump in for me. I know exactly why Ray's hesitating here, and it's because wedding culture is getting bigger than Ben Hur. And I think where, like, the hesitation comes from is we all know someone in our life who has taken on wedding and let it become their entire personality and are curating it to the point that it's a production, not a celebration of a marriage. Yeah.

[A]

And look, the reason why I always come to this conversation and I have hesitations, if I'm fully honest, is because as someone who recently got married, I also have bought into wedding culture in some capacity. However, as we've spoken about on the podcast in the past is I do feel like I've had really clear boundaries and lines. I actually think it was the episode where this topic came up when the Cut ran their previous article when they were doing a ranking in comparison of the US influencers who got married. Do you guys remember that?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So in that same episode, I feel like I came to that with a bit of a conflict because absolutely I consume wedding content. Absolutely I've created content about my own wedding. However, I do feel like I've had very clear boundaries around what I would be willing to let people in on. And with this follow up article, in this follow up conversation around Danielle Bernstein, it doesn't feel like it's about the couple and the love in the room. For me, it's about being a production, as you said, Matt, that this wedding is an opportunity to Create clout, create a revenue stream as well. And coming back to the point in the article which, and I guess the main controversy surrounding this TikTok video is the fact that she curated this edit for her guests. I do think it's a way to try and control the aesthetic under the guise of being helpful.

[C]

Yes, 1000%. She has dressed this up as helpful when it is curation and control.

[B]

Devil's advocate, though.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

We don't know Danielle personally.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

So she very much could be a very kind hearted, sweet, helpful person.

[C]

I'm sure she is.

[B]

And we're just seeing straight through that and going, oh, she doesn't trust her guest style and she wants them to look a specific way and meet her standards of dress for her event.

[C]

Can I reverse this back on blag in this debate as well? I think there's an element of that and also not even just her own expectations, but perhaps the pressure she feel externally.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

I'm not saying Danielle's like sitting in her ivory tower, you know, cackling like an evil witch, being like, everyone must wear what I want. Like, I think she's probably just feeling the external pressure of, like, there's articles on the cut about my engagement ring, about the carrot size, about the influencer sphere and what we're all wearing and what we're doing and who's having bigger weddings. I'm sure it's got to do with external pressure.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

I feel like it could be a combination of those things, but at the end of the day, I still think it's odd. The assumption is that a lot of these links were affiliate links as well. So are you also profiting your friends purchases?

[B]

Well, that's what I'm really curious to know. Is it actually affiliate links? Because that really changes this conversation.

[A]

My understanding of someone referring to something as a shoppable link is that it is an affiliate kickback. Is that correct?

[C]

Yes. I take that assumption. I have the same assumption. To deepen this part of me then went into this, like, conspiracy theory hole. And I want to be really clear. My own personal conspiracy theory.

[A]

It's got a tinfoil hat on, where.

[C]

I was like, I know five J's is, you know, the towers are talking to me. I went into this hole where I was like, wait, did she even ever really send this list? Or was this just a way to have her followers be like, yes, I want to access the link. Like, did her friends ever even really shop it? And this was more about her community wanting to know where, oh, like what have you recommended? What have you found?

[A]

It's also the classic, like, maybe you had one or two people and you're saying, everyone keeps asking me and it's like, what is the sample size?

[C]

How many?

[A]

Like, one or two. You could do a curated. Here are a couple of dresses I like. And Joe, you're probably having this experience. I think you touched on this last time. A few friends reaching out to you, saying, what do I wear? Like, you're.

[B]

Especially now.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Lots of friends asking me, are you.

[A]

Feeling the pressure to curate and edit?

[B]

No.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

I'm not. I can't say. I'm on my ltk, creating a shoppable list of outfits for my friends.

[C]

But I sent you a photo.

[B]

Yeah, but if my friends are sending me photos and they're like, is this okay? Or do you like this? Or do you think this is good for the wedding? I'm like, yeah, looks beautiful.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because obviously it's something they're comfortable in. I don't think I would feel comfortable dictating what my guests wear or making them feel pressure to wear a certain thing. Dress code is enough.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Give a dress code. That's all the guest has to adhere to.

[C]

It is interesting though, because I would say about 50% of the conversations I'm having with friends in regards to weddings right now are that they're being served very like extensive Pinterest boards or curated visuals of what they should wear to, like, certain events or to the wedding itself. Like, because I think some people worry that either friends or family won't understand the dress code.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Have either of you ever received a wedding invitation that has had a Pinterest board attached?

[B]

Not personally, no.

[A]

I have and I would say recently, in the last 12 months, maybe one or two times.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I do think it is helpful if you have people in your group, like parents or older guests who aren't really familiar with a dress code or if you actually have a specific theme, which I am seeing more of.

[C]

Yeah. I had a friend who got married overseas, had a number of festivities, like, the most exquisite wedding. Not a Pinterest board insight. But she did kind of, you know, go, I guess, off stream with some of her, like, themes. She had La Dolce Vita as one of the themes for the welcome. And I was like, oh, I would have really loved a Pinterest board because I was like, what is La Dolce Vita as, like, a dress theme? I didn't know if it was cocktail or a little bit more fun and casual.

[A]

Also, most of the Time. I feel like it's for the men. A lot of guys don't really understand the difference between a cocktail, a black tie and a formal dress code.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I generally find it helpful in that sense. Joe, you're shaking your head like you agree.

[B]

Yeah. It has been the men that has been the issue for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The women.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, the amount of times I have gone to a black tie wedding and usually, unfortunately for them, a destination black tie wedding where someone goes, you can wear navy. Right. Or like someone goes, I can wear a tie. And you're like, black tie is technically a tux with a bow tie.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You're like. So I understand it from that viewpoint. Would I necessarily want to see a shoppable link? Would I necessarily want. I mean, actually, no. If I was going to buy a dress, I'd rather my friend make some cash out of it.

[A]

I was about to say, I probably, if it was one of my best mates, I probably would support them. I mean, for any event, it can be expensive to buy a dress. I would hope that there was a range of high and low options available. But the main piece for me is. Was that transparent. Were you disclosing that up top? Because also the assumption that every single person knows what an affiliate link is is misguided. I'm in the industry. I have my own affiliate link partnership with ltk. I know what that is. My mum would have no idea.

[C]

I agree. Mum would have no clue. For me though as well, it's like. Is it like a registry where everyone's expected to buy something? Because great that you've got all these price points, but what if all the dresses for two to $500 are gone? You know, is it the expectation that everyone had to buy from this curation.

[B]

And are we ever going to find that out? Because a lot of this is speculation and assumption. Because we haven't actually seen the list.

[C]

No.

[B]

We haven't seen the shoppable dresses. And also we don't know if there was a range of styles. We don't know if there was a range of price points. Because how can you assume that every single dress you choose that is obviously your taste is going to be suitable for someone that is not your size.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[C]

Yeah. Anything wedding related will always, always have debates surrounding it. Like especially now when they're just becoming like full blown productions. Yeah. I just. This made me feel icky. I can't lie.

[A]

I don't think it's the end of it as well. I do think because she has such a public profile, we're going to continue to see her wedding scrutinized by the general public, but also publications. Coming back to your point, Mads, is that a byproduct of her having a public profile on her feeling the pressure? It's a hard one to balance. It just makes me think of the whole term, you know, damned if you do, damned if you don't. Anything that she does, she's going to be scrutinized for. I just think there could have been a little bit more self awareness about putting this sort of thing out. If it is true, how that was going to be received by the general public and also the publications that are covering it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I would argue all of this has a little bit of content strategy against it too. So watch this space.

[A]

Ready girl.

[C]

Our next headline is one that we are all very excited about and that is Grace Wales Bonner's appointment at Hermes is worth talking about. And honestly, if TRACE was still a thing for the OG stylish listeners, this could honestly warrant one. But last week, British designer Grace Wales Bonner was named Hermes new Creative Director of Menswear. I would like to shout. And just a round of applause on the mic, please. Now, this appointment is such a big deal for so many reasons. Grace is the first black woman to lead design at a major fashion house and she's one of only a few women at the helm of a high fashion label or house right now.

[B]

Yes, there's a lot of men. White men.

[C]

Yeah. So let's go back a little bit of context. Grace is a menswear designer who founded her label, Wales Bonner in 2014 and her label went on to have pretty major collaborations with the likes of Adidas and Stussy. Anyway, she is absolutely acclaimed within the fashion world. Vogue has credited her with quietly changing menswear. She took home the CFDA's Menswear Designer of the Year award in 2021. And with all the reshuffling that's been going on in the industry at many of the major fashion houses over the last year, practically none of the top roles have gone to women. Which I think just makes Grace's appointment that much more special and noteworthy. According to a study done by Creative Platform One Granary, three quarters of the intake of the British Fashion School Central Saint Martin's are women. So when we flip that majority with how many are at the top, it's like, how did we get from the bottom of the pyramid being so strong and held by female to the top being held by men.

[A]

Sounds like most workplaces, to be honest. Pew, pew, pew.

[C]

Shots fired. Let's go. So this was actually the fashion school that Grace herself went to, as did many other renowned designers. So the likes of Phoebe Philo, John Galliano and Alexander McQueen. But in the industry, nearly 90% of top designers are men. This segment from an article in the Telegraph in March this year sums it up very, very nicely. Why is this happening in an industry where women dominate everywhere but at the top? Female focused clothing lines bring in the majority of sales. Womenswear ready to wear collections garner far more press than menswear. Women run nearly all the publicity, marketing and communication departments of major brands. And female models and influencers are are infinitely more famous than their male counterparts. So much.

[A]

So much.

[C]

So we could talk about in here. As I said at the start, first up, what did you think about Grace being given this role?

[A]

I was so happy. So, so happy. This is a monumental moment in fashion and she is so deserving of this position. Her tailoring, and her eye for tailoring is impeccable. One of my favorite looks is when she dressed Lewis Hamilton for the Met Gala. Oh, my Lord. Just beautiful, beautiful pieces. She's also not just an incredible fashion designer, I would say she's an incredible artist. She's dabbled in directing films, she's curated art collections. She's well rounded and incredibly, incredibly creative. So I'm so excited.

[B]

The ultimate cool girl, I feel.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And also she's only 35, which I really love to see someone that isn't, you know, middle aged or beyond getting a shot at a huge role like this. And she's keeping her other label running at the same time.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's a big commitment to take on.

[C]

Yeah. And not dissimilar to what we've seen with Jonathan Anderson. Still maintaining J.W. anderson while moving over to Dior. The part of this that I loved more than anything was that Hermes were the house to do it. Agreed. Because I know I've spoken about it before. I love the podcast. Acquired. I will, like that will forever be my favorite podcast.

[B]

Rude.

[C]

I know. Way to put your foot in it.

[A]

Carry on. Maddy is for once speechless.

[C]

Are we keeping this in? Yeah, we are. I'm so sorry. We're keeping this in. So I'm Michelle, you're number two. Ruby. Oh, fuck no. Don't make me rank them.

[A]

Carry on.

[C]

I'm not ranking. I'm not. Obviously excluding Shameless.

[A]

Carry on.

[C]

Obviously excluding Shameless media as my favourites. But why I loved this is if you have four hours to spare. I cannot recommend enough listening to the Hermes acquired episode, because what I think you learn to understand is just how long and well tenured and cared for this house is. They started the exact same year as Louis Vuitton. And I think what we've seen in Louis Vuitton and what we've seen in Hermes, I would say with Hermes, there's a lot more control and a lot more restraint, and that's very hard for a house. But the one thing that came through really strongly in that episode was that Hermes trust craft and they trust craftsmen. They bring them in. And what I love about this is they've clearly identified Grace as the exact thing you've all said, the cool girl who understands tailoring, who does things. That Vogue quote about doing things, changing things really quietly. Hermes are making a bold choice and statement with this. But I think that Grace has the restraint and the control to move Hermes menswear in a new direction without it feeling jarring, which sometimes happens when a new creative director comes to a house. So that's what made me the most excited about it.

[A]

Yeah, I loved as well that this felt like a dream come true for Grace as well. In my own research, I came across an article in 2019 where Grace was interviewed by System magazine. And when she was asked, what would you do if a label offered you a great opportunity? She answered with this. I am interested in the idea of an institution and fashion having parameters. A house with heritage is interesting to me because I'm interested in a framework and then disrupting elements of classicism within that. A dream of mine would be to work with the tailoring brand, as that is at the core of what I am doing. Then followed up with, what is your favorite, if you could choose one? Grace answered, maybe a brand like Hermes or even a Seville Row tailoring house.

[B]

Okay. Manifestation.

[C]

Don't.

[A]

I'm just.

[C]

I. When I weirdly want to cry at that.

[A]

I just love looking back at these moments, like 2019, that was a while ago. For her to have this moment and for it to be aligned with the house that she quite clearly respects. Kudos to them for being open to disruption. I think it's come at a really interesting time for the brand, and I feel that this is going to be a real monumental shift for them. Not away from what they're known for, as you said, the tailoring, the craftsmanship. If anything, I think it's going to enhance that. But we're going to see a fresh, modern, youthful take. And I'm so So excited.

[B]

Mads, you raised some really interesting stats around women in fashion versus men. Why do we think that women are not seen in these top positions as much as men?

[C]

I mean, that's like the.

[A]

How long ago, how many thousands of years?

[C]

Would you like me to go back? It's a great question. There was a really great article in the Telegraph that was kind of speaking the fact that, you know, women who may choose those traditional societal norms of getting married or having a family cannot commit themselves to the insane hours that a man can. But I also challenge that thinking in that there's that. But then there are many female designers who orbit around the top that don't have families or children or who do do the insane hours and manage to do both, you know, by prioritizing or deprioritizing where they need to. Ultimately, these houses also have a lot of men in boardrooms and men, as awful as it sounds like to speak to men. And I think that that is shown in the number of male creatives. What do you think, Ray?

[A]

I think it's a systemic issue that isn't just exclusive to the fashion industry. We see this in most industries. I know up top. I made a bit of a scoff like, haha. But it generally is an issue that we see in majority workplaces. Top, heavy mail, middle management, heavy female. And the harsh reality of it is, is that a lot of women who have to step away from their careers find it really difficult to also be let back in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And let back in in a capacity that they feel they can be a really good mother and also contribute to a workplace and be a really good employee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's hard to strive to the top when you step that time away, especially when workplaces and industries aren't giving you the space or adjusting the model so that you can do that and two things can work.

[C]

I find it interesting as well because I do think there's such an affinity and I guess. Applause. For men who appreciate or can design for the female form. You think of Tom Ford, go right back to Yves Saint Laurent. Like, you know, Christian Louboutin. Like, there is this real. Oh, they understand women, they know women. And my observation would be that we don't see that same languaging around women for women's wear. Like, she understands shape, she understands form. I really feel like the only two female designers I can think of in that space would be Vera Wang and Vivienne Westwood that we hear that languaging around. I think even when Sarah BURTON Was at McQueen, it was like, oh, well, Sarah's understood Alexander's vision and being able to, you know, continue it on. It was never Sarah understands female figure and form. Like, I just don't know why that language exists as well. It bothers me also.

[A]

No one knows the female form better than women. Yeah.

[B]

It feels like men getting claps for basic things associated with their role. Like if you're a women's wear fashion designer, of course you're going to know the female form.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Interestingly, when I looked at some of the Runway looks from Paris Fashion Week, particularly Loewe, lots of androgynous looks, very shapeless, very, you know, straight down boxy. Boxy. And it felt like it was becoming a bit more gender neutral as well. So I also thought that was an interesting comparison.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What I'm most excited about this appointment is seeing how Grace can tackle tailoring in a way that feels more feminine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, reverse engineering and applying this look. You know, if all these male designers understand a woman's body so well, I'm excited to see how Grace interprets and understands a male's body so well and positions it in a way that we haven't seen before.

[C]

Yeah. I'm really, really excited by this appointment and I cannot wait to see her first collection for them next. Rae is going to unpack for us. What the heck? Group seven is on TikTok. But that's right after a word from today's sponsor. We love Christopher Esber for their sophisticated and statement making fashion pieces and now they're bringing that same philosophy to eyewear with an exclusive collection at Specsavers. The 20 piece collection is a celebration of Christopher Esbers style things. Structured hardware, organic lines and modern silhouettes. If you're in the market for a new pair of glasses to elevate your work or weekend look, you'll be obsessed with these. Shop the Christopher Esber collection in store or [e-mail] thank you so much to Specsavers for making this episode of stylish possible.

[A]

Guys, if You've been on TikTok over the last week, you might have seen some vague and mysterious videos talking about Group seven. It has been all over my feed and something that we've constantly been talking about in the shameless office. In the last seven days you might have seen some comments or videos on TikTok stating that the best and coolest people on the TikTok algorithm have been placed into Group 7. But if you haven't seen this, basically Group 7 has been originated from musician Sophia James as a way to promote her latest single. So unfair.

[C]

I had no idea about that.

[A]

Yeah, I had no idea as well.

[C]

I just thought it was about all the cool kids raining group 7.

[A]

I actually thought it was the 67 trend, which same was a few months older. Yeah, the six seven. Like doing the hands like the basketball meme. Sorry, I digress. And it's not about that. Sophia James made seven TikToks that all looked pretty similar and were backed by her new song. And in each one, she assigned TikTok viewers into a group numbered one to seven.

[B]

This is a smart marketing tactic. I actually love this move from her.

[C]

It's bloody genius. Yeah.

[A]

So smart.

[C]

One of the best I've honestly seen in a really, really long time.

[A]

So the idea is that whatever number group you were served up on your timeline, you belong to that group. The wider context is that this is a bit of a TikTok trend where a creative will make multiple videos with the idea that the algorithm will serve the one that speaks to your interest the most.

[B]

I haven't seen anyone else do this. This is the first time I've seen this done.

[A]

I saw so many other videos before I actually saw the original seven.

[B]

Same.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

That's why I didn't know that it was all about her new single.

[A]

No. That came to me later on, and one of the girls in the office had to tell me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So as the video started to go viral, for whatever reason, Group 7 became the Group that signified popularity and morphed into almost a digital social club of sorts. It's now become the most watched video of the seven, with over 30 million views. In this video, she said, if you're watching this video, you are in group seven. I have posted seven videos tonight, and this is the seventh one. Just as a little science experiment to see what kind of video gets the most reach. I don't know what that says about you, but you're in Group 7. Yahoo Entertainment said this about the Group 7 phenomenon. Initiation isn't all that simple, though. In fact, it's really serendipitous, and it depends entirely on whether you were meant to find the video in the first place. As TikTok becomes increasingly saturated with Group Seveners bragging about their newfound status and searching for others like themselves, learning whether or not you've landed a coveted spot in the click is kind of a big deal right now. First and foremost, both of you, are you in group seven?

[C]

I did receive.

[B]

Did you see the original?

[C]

No. Eventually I did.

[A]

So is that how it works? Because I was under the impression that you were only in group seven.

[B]

Yeah. You had to have seen the original.

[A]

The original.

[B]

Have seen the other follow on ones first. You have to have been served the original.

[C]

I feel like I'm in Inception right now because I've got to see her face. I'm like, I've seen so many Group 7 videos. I'm actually like, between that and go and retrieve the content, I actually. That's all my fate has been. Yeah.

[A]

I feel I was misinformed. I was under the assumption that I wasn't in Group 7 because I'd seen multiple other people make videos about the fact they weren't in group seven. But Kate, our senior producer, has actually pulled up her laptop to show us to make sure that we are clear about what the original video looked like. So what we're looking at right now is an image of Sophia James. Yeah, I saw this video. It was the first video I saw. However, I'd already seen like 10 or 15 videos about Group 7. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So people making like videos of them frolicking in the pool saying, I'm in group seven. I actually think it was Beck Hardy.

[C]

Yeah. Our friend of the podcast, Beck Hardy.

[A]

It was Beck Hardy's video. And I was like, I saw that one before I saw the OG one. So I thought that meant I wasn't in Group 7. But turns out I am.

[C]

And she's proud of it. Do you know why I loved this so much? I'm going to deepen this from a marketing perspective. Most songs, I would say, trend now because they're attached to a dance. Yeah. So we see that with Taylor Swift's like, Fate of Ophelia. We can go Man Child by Sabrina Carpenter. We had the dance that she did for what was the other one that she had?

[A]

Even the apple dance.

[C]

Oh, messy apple. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so many. What I loved about this was she wasn't like, hey, guys, go stream my new song. And she also didn't have to make a dance for it. She created seven pieces of content with the same song attached to all of them that you, by way of creating content as a group, 2, 3, 5, 7 are using the same audio as her. It's a genius way to get a song out there at a time when people want to be included in a club.

[B]

It really is. I just love this tactic from her. I feel sad that I'm not in group seven, but I. I started to see all the videos about Group 7. I started to see all the brands jumping on Group 7, which I always start to be like, it's old now.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, no offense, but, like, once the brands get on, I'm like, I roll.

[B]

It's like, yeah.

[C]

Once a brand starts, it's. Yeah, it's done.

[A]

Yeah. That means the trends debt.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, TikTok is so fickle right now. I feel like we're moving through trends quicker than ever.

[B]

Yeah. By the time this episode comes out, which is in. In literally two days, it'll be over.

[A]

Interestingly, this didn't really translate to streams on Spotify, though. The total number of streams at the time of recording is just over 200,000. Obviously. The video has 30 million views.

[B]

Apparently.

[A]

She's gained, I think, 50,000 followers on TikTok. I mean, we're talking about it, so I guess it still has impact.

[C]

I would say definitely getting a name out there.

[A]

I see. I think I'm looking at it from the perspective of I didn't really clock it was a marketing tactic until one of the girls in the office told me. So I'm like, by that point, is it too late?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I'd heard of Group 7, and then I didn't know actually what it was until we had our whip on Friday and we were talking about this headline, and I was like, oh, I didn't realize this was about someone's new single that they were trying to promote. I had no idea. I just thought it was one of those, you know, those TikTok trends that you just kind of don't really know what they are, but you kind of.

[A]

Go along with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was that.

[C]

Don't you think, though, this is kind of like Kelly Holiday's song dancing and how, like, we didn't really know that was a marketing tactic. I think Abby Chatfield, his girlfriend, had uploaded a video of, like, their relationship and him writing a song about her. And then suddenly everyone's, like, uploading, you know, a video with their best friend or their partner or, like, you know, dancing with their kids in the living room. And it's like, suddenly this song's like the anthem of, like, you know, an uplifting moment in your personal life to share with your online community. What we don't realize is that song's just been brought out and it's, like, very much a marketing tactic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why do you think it took off the way it did? Why were people so obsessed with being included in group seven?

[C]

People crave community. I harp on about this so much, usually from a work perspective, when I'm saying enough with the content creator events. We need to open up to Community because it just goes to show, like, we see it ourselves when we host stylish events. Like, people come together. Some people come to these things alone and will be chatting to someone and next thing you know, they're swapping phone numbers, having a drink. Everyone's so friendly. Like, people love being around other people or feeling like they're part of something. I think this is like an online example of that.

[A]

I completely agree. However, in this instance, it feels more like a clique than a community.

[B]

I was just about to say I actually disagree with you.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

I think this is all around the exclusivity. People love to be part of a club that not everyone can be in. It's like when something is difficult to buy, like you're on a wait list for it, you manage to get it that you feel better than everyone else. Yeah.

[A]

Superiority complex kicks in. Yeah.

[B]

100% is. I don't think it's about Community. I think it's about, oh, well, I'm in here and you're not.

[A]

Yeah. I agree with you about the point on Community, but I also agree with Jo.

[C]

I agree. Spoken like someone who's not in group seven, mind you, so, you know, I am. Come on. No, we're all being group eight. Maybe that one exists. Yeah.

[A]

I want someone to create their own group. I think for me, what would be interesting is, what, where do you go from here?

[C]

Yeah. And let's be real, we did just try and, like, record me coming up with an answer, and I was like, I've got no bloody idea.

[A]

No. And I don't know either. But I will be watching closely to see how this translate and if it evolves into anything else. Maybe a new song. Yeah, that wave.

[C]

Yeah. And always just think, like, everything seems to be the marketing machine of, like, you know, their record labels. But I do wonder, like, was she just at home one night and thought this might be a fun idea? The skepticism in Ray will not think that. Of course, she would have been getting.

[A]

A bit of a reputation.

[C]

That is all for this week's episode of Stylish. Thank you so much for joining us. No matter what group you're in, we're happy to have you. And of course, thanks very much to you, Joanna Fleming, and you, Rhiannon Joyce, dressed as Annika Joshua Smith today, remember? Thank you, Jo. I love that you always think me back, even if I do try and cut you off to finish this episode. Remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at Stylish Pod. We can't forget to thank, of course, our shameless media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt, and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. Re and I will be back with you on Friday. The rest of us will be back next Wednesday. See you then.

[A]

Bye, guys. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land.

[B]

Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.