The evolution of Alex Cooper's Unwell network

Summary

Style-ish – "The Evolution of Alex Cooper's Unwell Network"

Podcast by Shameless Media | Hosts: Madison Sullivan-Thorpe & Rhiannon Joyce | Episode Date: October 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Madison ("Mads") and Rhiannon ("Ray") break down the evolution of Alex Cooper’s growing media empire, "Unwell," focusing on its newly launched creative agency arm and the far-reaching tentacles of the Unwell brand. They candidly explore Cooper’s rapid trajectory from podcasting success story ("Call Her Daddy") to multiplatform mogul, dissecting the strategic moves, dilemmas, and controversies surrounding Unwell’s expansion across podcasting, branded products, creative services, and even the beverage market. The hosts also analyze the challenges of building a multi-vertical media brand and the importance of authenticity and focus for continued success.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brand Unwell: The Many Arms of Alex Cooper’s Empire

[13:17]

• Madison outlines the four primary divisions:
  • Unwell Network: Creator and podcast network (including talent churn)
  • Unwell Hydration: Electrolyte drink brand
  • Unwell Productions: TV production company
  • Unwell Creative Agency: Ad/creative services arm, recent partnership with Google
• Ray raises, "Is she a jack of all trades, master of none?"—wondering if Cooper is stretching herself too thin for any one vertical to achieve its full potential.

[14:25] – Notable Quote:

“The hardest part is not saying yes to things, it’s saying no and knowing when the right opportunity can come up at the wrong time.” – Madison, reflecting on advice from brand founders

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2. The Unwell Creative Agency & the Google Deal

[07:53], [10:06], [16:50]

• The launch of Unwell Creative Agency (with Google as anchor client, including a multi-year, multi-category deal) is seen as Cooper seeking industry legitimacy and a transition from personality/talent to serious businesswoman.
• Madison cites Cooper's Diary of a CEO interview, emphasizing her passion for producing and directing—her "industry accolades" focus over personal fame.
• Both agree the Google deal positions Cooper closer to the "cultural moment creation" of top-tier ad agencies—maybe even a future Super Bowl ad for Google.

[16:50] – Memorable Prediction:

“I wouldn’t be surprised if down the track she does create a Super Bowl ad for Google in this five-year plan… She’s gunning to be creating these cultural moments.” – Ray

• Risks discussed:
  • Category exclusivity (can't work with Apple, other phone/tech brands)
  • Corporate "red tape" and brand values that may dilute Cooper's edgy, zeitgeisty persona
  • Google’s lower appetite for controversy/risk compared to Cooper’s history with "Call Her Daddy"

[22:23] – Notable Exchange:

“The risk right now is that her vision or her values could potentially be diluted by this partnership for the agency arm of it?” – Madison
“Potentially. Yeah, I can see that being an issue down the track for sure.” – Ray

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3. Unwell Beverages: Smart Play or Off-Brand?

[22:51], [25:00], [26:32]

• Seen as the "2025 version of Vitamin Water," echoing heavily-branded celebrity beverage plays (Vitamin Water, Prime by Logan Paul/KSI).
• Marketing straddles "party girl" and "girl boss," yet both hosts feel it's less authentically Cooper’s lifestyle now—more resonant with Alex Earle’s persona.
• Madison says, "I just don’t buy it"—feeling Cooper’s promotion is manufactured, perhaps aimed more at tapping the Alex Earle audience.
• Concerns over long-term fit and future pipeline for the drink brand; highest risk and least strategic tie-in to Cooper’s true ambitions.

[28:20] – Notable Critique:

“It looks really manufactured. You’re pretending you’re hungover, you’re pretending you’re way more fucked up than what you actually are.” – Ray

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4. The Podcast Network: Proven Formula, New Challenges

[33:19], [35:37], [41:34]

• Podcast industry now leans heavily on recruiting celebrities/influencers, as opposed to building creators from the ground up—opposite of Cooper’s own Call Her Daddy rise.
• Unwell’s expansion included established personalities like Alex Earle and Madeline Argy, rather than platforming unknowns.
• The volatility of high-profile talent is a risk highlighted by the rapid rise and ambiguous exit of Alex Earle from the network; a rumored (but NDA-cloaked) rift addressed with TikTok references and subtle shade.

[37:45] – Notable Exchange:

"The inference is that there was a falling out… the creative volatility is a real challenge when it comes to the podcast network that she has." – Ray

• Madison highlights generational targeting: Call Her Daddy’s audience aging up with Cooper (now more millennial), while other Unwell podcasts serve Gen Z.
• For brand survival/legacy: crucial to grow beyond Cooper herself, supporting a portfolio of new voices—yet without cannibalizing audiences.

[41:34] – Strategic Insight:

“If she wants the podcast network to really survive but also thrive, she needs to build out the podcast outside of Call Her Daddy and really go after that Gen Z audience.” – Ray

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5. Personal Reflections: Focus, Authenticity, and “Building Up, Not Out”

• Both hosts stress the importance of maintaining focus on core strengths (e.g., podcasting/cultural production) versus over-diversifying.
• Emphasis on authenticity—both in brand extension and personal storytelling.
• Succinct advice: Build on what works and drive depth, not just breadth.

[45:07] – Notable Quote:

“The golden rule of fewer, bigger, better is… never more prevalent… I would be saying, build up, not out. Don’t keep trying to diversify—what you’re doing works, but try and build up what you have.” – Madison

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Memorable, Low-Brow Pop Culture Moments

• [38:21] TikTok subtle shade: Both Alexes (Cooper vs. Earle) trade barely-veiled social media jabs, quoting “How much time do you have?” as a sort of meme/inside drama.
• [39:29] Cooper posts a TikTok set to Britney Spears’ "Circus," with Vegas event guests, using Earle’s catchphrase caption—direct, winking reference to the rift.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:47 – Fragrance trend chat and Law brand breakdown
• 07:19 – The origin and status of Alex Cooper’s Unwell empire
• 09:59 – Hosts’ first reactions to the Unwell Creative Agency/Google news
• 13:17 – Full breakdown of Unwell’s business divisions ("octopus tentacles" analogy)
• 15:40 – Why is the creative agency (and partnership with Google) strategically smart?
• 18:22 – Prediction: Cooper angling for a Super Bowl ad for Google
• 22:51 – The Unwell Beverages play: comparison to Vitamin Water/Prime and product authenticity
• 28:20 – On the authenticity (or lack thereof) of Cooper’s personal branding in beverage content
• 33:19 – The influencer-driven podcast strategy and its challenges
• 35:37 – Talent acquisition risks; Alex Earle case study
• 41:34 – Shifting generational focus and network succession
• 45:07 – Hosts’ advice for Alex Cooper: build up, not out

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Summary Table

| Time | Topic | Standout Quotes & Ideas | |----------|-----------------------------------------------|------------------------------------------------| | 13:17 | Unwell’s 4 business arms | "Octopus tentacles… what is Unwell anymore?" – Madison | | 16:50 | Creative Agency & Super Bowl ambitions | "I wouldn’t be surprised if down the track she does create a Super Bowl ad for Google…" – Ray | | 18:22 | Creative legitimacy & cultural moments | Driving for industry—not just celebrity—accolades | | 22:51 | Unwell Beverages analysis | “It’s the 2025 Vitamin Water.” – Ray | | 28:20 | Authenticity critique | “You’re pretending you’re hungover.” – Ray | | 33:19 | Podcast network growth & talent strategy | "She hasn’t gone about the same way… [as] Call Her Daddy." – Ray | | 37:45 | Alex Cooper vs. Alex Earle drama | “The inference is that there was a falling out.” – Ray | | 45:07 | Advice: Focus and depth | “Build up, not out. Don’t keep trying to diversify…” – Madison |

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Final Takeaways

• Alex Cooper’s Unwell is at an inflection point—balancing explosive growth and diversification against the risk of overextension and diluted brand focus.
• The new creative agency, with Google as flagship client, signals both Cooper’s ambitions and the complexities of marrying edgy creator culture with corporate conservatism.
• Authenticity, credibility, and a disciplined, focused expansion are seen as critical to Unwell’s sustained success—both by the hosts and in their hypothetical advice for Cooper.
• The soap-opera-worthy Unwell drama (especially with Alex Earle) adds a distinctly modern, internet-fueled twist to old-school media machination.

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For listeners who haven’t heard the full episode, this lively and insightful breakdown will arm you with all the major talking points, sharpest analysis, and juiciest drama emerging from Alex Cooper’s ever-evolving Unwell universe.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Anz Business. Start. Right. Worry less about the what ifs and focus on what's next.

[B]

Hello and welcome to our fortnightly episode of Stylish. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe. My co host is Rhiannon Joyce. It always feels so weird saying our full names. This is our fortnightly episode where we analyze all things br. Brand, beauty, business, you name it, career stories, marketing campaigns. We are divulging all of it. Riri, Happy Friday. How's your week been? Honestly, a bit of a whirlwind.

[A]

I took Tuesday morning off a few hours, just time in lieu to record and I. What are you doing?

[B]

I was also a bit tired because I. What did we do on the weekend?

[A]

I ran the marathon on the weekend.

[B]

Oh, my God. Woo.

[A]

No, I feel like everyone knows because I keep bringing it up in every episode. But I did run the marathon on the weekend, so I was a little tired this week and also had a bit of, you know, brain fog. So I took a bit of time off on Tuesday morning and it was so nice when I got a facial at Rationale. Went shopping down High Street. Yeah. Just did all the girly Melbourne things.

[B]

Did you buy anything?

[A]

I did. I bought an outfit. We have our shameless media upfronts today when this episode is dropping. I will be presenting, but it's kind of a big deal for me. It's honestly the biggest media event that we host in the year and I always like to buy an outfit for it, so I feel extra special. I'm big on the mindset of, like, look good, feel good. Yeah. You know, do a good job. So I bought a really cute outfit. Crazy for me. I'm wearing a pink skirt. Whoa. I know.

[B]

Excuse me.

[A]

Yeah, it's really, really cute, though. And I'll put a photo up on my Instagram, so go look at it. It's from Grace in Melbourne, which is like a really beautiful boutique on High Street.

[B]

Adore Grace. Yes.

[A]

It's Tibby the. The American.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Beautiful.

[A]

Stunning. It was also the last one left. I didn't think it would fit and it did, so it was all meant to be. So, yes, I'm very excited about that. I'm excited to wear it. We're obviously recording on a Wednesday, so I am kind of talking in two different. What do you call it?

[B]

Time zones.

[A]

Time zone, Sort of. How was your week?

[B]

My week's been really good. I feel like I've been. Last week I had a foul week. Like, I Feel like I get on these podcasts a lot, and I always get messages. People like, oh, I love how, like, bubbly and, like, happy you always are. And I'm like, last week I had a really shit week. I was really overwhelmed. Just really had to, like, recalibrate and have a little bit of, like, quiet time in tlc. I. You always say this to me, but a little bit more protecting my pace. So I'm doing. I've done more of that this week, and I felt like I was just coming down with something. So I think just like, saying no to things is something I'm not great at, but I am trying.

[A]

I know I feel like a broken record with you sometimes. Not in like a I'm your mother way, but more so because I also had to learn how to protect my pace.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And say no. And I feel over the last 12 months, I've gotten really good at it. And also really distinguishing what is adding value. Time is the most important currency you have, and taking time for yourself to protect your peace will just make all the difference in every other aspect of your life. And how you show up like that energy that you're preserving, you then put into yourself and put into other things that really matter and really fulfill you. So I'm really coming down on Mads.

[B]

I know. And she needs to. And I'm feeling like such a weird because I always get so many people ask for coffee and do those things. And now I'm really challenging myself to be like, can I actually add value to you and what you're after as well? And we're going to do a whole episode on this because Ray and I were deepening this on a conversation. But even people asking for coffees, shoot your shot. I love that. I'll never knock that down. But one, like, tidbit of advice I'd give at the moment is to think about, can that person actually give you tangible advice for where you're at right now? So it's like, you know, if you're really, like, if you're just starting out, go for someone who's like, a couple of years in. Don't go for someone who's been doing it for 10 years because they've got no idea what it's like to be in that sphere right now.

[A]

I do really want to do a similar style episode to our first episode. I know we spoke a lot about our careers, but I also think there's something in our listeners sharing with us advice they need or guidance so that we can then maybe do a whole episode on tips, tricks, advice, and really consolidate that and centralize it in one place that might be a better use of your time. And you feel like you can get to these people who you feel like you can't have the coffee with the 30 minutes out of every day. Because that's a lot. When you have so many people, which you do, asking you for 30 minutes of your time, maybe you can address a lot of the themes that they're coming to you in this episode.

[B]

1000.

[A]

Okay, we're going to do this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll talk to the producers. We'll make this happen. All right. He'll talk to your people behind the scenes. Matt's word of the week.

[B]

Word of the week. I'm going to keep it super simple. I know I harp on about it a lot, but fragrance is constantly in my algorithm. It's probably because I love fragrance. But I was on a call last night with Jamie Lup, who owns Monday Days, Laura Proko. I mean, that like rap sheet of brands is endless. And Jamie was like, oh, my God, have you seen Law yet? Now, for those who haven't seen, Lore, Lor is a really fucking cool new fragrance.

[A]

Side note, great fucking name, Great name.

[B]

It's very Louis V esque, their branding. But I saw this brand and I saw who started this brand and I was very impressed. So it's kind of got the dream team of beauty, I would say. So. One of the co founders is Melanie Bender, who was in the executive team at Rhode. Sam Sontag, who designed the Rhode phone case, has designed their bottle. One of the other co founders co founded Youth to the People. Like, we are talking serious rap sheet. I love the way that they've presented this brand. It's really niche at the moment. They've only got 12.9000 followers on Instagram. They're on Sephora US. I would not be at all surprised if they've got their sights set on Australia. I would love them to have their sights set on Australia. Call me. But they're charging $88 USD a bottle. Like, it looks super luxe and it's floating in that really nice price point of like, where who is Elijah is. So I'm going to call it. This is going to be like our next favorite fragrance brand. And while I don't gatekeep, I do hate sharing my fragrance brands because I'm like, I like wearing something.

[A]

Fragrance is different. It's very personal.

[B]

Yeah. Well, now here we are. I know there's a lot of Maison Crivelli Girls now, because I've shared Saffron Secret and I've also shared Oud Maracuja with half the shameless office as well, actually.

[A]

Yeah, we all smell wonderful.

[B]

But I think I'm going to try and get a couple of friends who are in New York to. Well, actually, I've just clocked this at the same time that I've got a friend going over to run the New York Marathon. I'm 100% going to ask him to bring me home a couple of bottles.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get a couple. We might do the Discovery sets.

[A]

I think that would be great. People need to stop sleeping on the Discovery set. It is so good. I believe you recommended the Le Labo full fragrance.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The Discovery sets also really good.

[B]

The Discovery sets are great. They've actually just dropped at Mecca. That's my hot tip. There's also a really cute one from Commes des Garcons that's in store at the moment as well. And if you are sleeping on Comme des Garcons, I agree. Wake up.

[A]

I agree. So underrated.

[B]

So that was my. I guess it's my brand of the.

[A]

Week, not my brand of the week. Yeah, true. But, you know, the word of the week is what we make it.

[B]

All right, let's get into the app. Last week, it was massive news. I think our text chat was kind of blowing up, Ray. But it was announced that Alex Cooper, popular host of the podcast Call Her Daddy, launched Unwell Creative Agency, a new division of her media company. If you haven't heard of Call Her Daddy is a very popular podcast that Forbes reported to have had 13.5 million monthly listeners, which, you know, safe to.

[A]

Say, no small feat, like one of the biggest podcasts in the world. I would. You would be pressed to find someone who doesn't know who Alice Cooper is. In our generation, my parents wouldn't know who she is.

[B]

Great. My mom would have no idea.

[A]

No clue.

[B]

But would my girlfriends in group chat? Oh, hell yeah. So if you haven't heard of Call Her Daddy, it is a very, very popular podcast that Forbes reported to have had more than three 13.5 million monthly listeners. Good North Star for us to be aiming.

[A]

I strive for that success.

[B]

So off the back of the success of Call Her Daddy, Alex Cooper then expanded into a fully fledged podcast network.

[A]

Alex Cooper took inspiration from her proven formula and launched the podcast careers of two massive Internet sensations and I would say the most well known to come out of the Unwell Network, Alex Earl and Madeline Argie. So Alex Earl's podcast was Hot Mess. And Madeline Argies is called Pretty Lonesome. Now we will come back to the breakdown in Alex Earl and Alex Cooper's relationship. This story will touch on Alex Cooper, but also Alex Earl at points. And I think it's just easier if we refer to them saying their full names.

[B]

It would have helped if one of them just had a longer name that we could reference or at the very least a nickname. But we are where we are. So as we mentioned, this media agency has just been announced. The Wall Street Journal reported that the agency will be backed by a multi year creative and media assignment with Google to create ads on social media and produce Google activations at live events. The deal is part of a wider partnership between Google and the Unwell Group, which will see the media company, I guess, promote its own use of Pixel and Android devices, which obviously are, I would say, paddling in the shallow end versus Apple in the deep.

[A]

Oh yeah, this announcement is really the reason why we wanted to have this conversation. Really deep dive the Unwell network, as you said. Up top. Mads, you and I were going back and forth in Slack in our group chat being like, okay, there are so many expansions of Brand Unwell and this is really the reason why we wanted to have this conversation and deep dive Brand Unwell. We're going to dive into our thoughts on this announcement, but that will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

[B]

Right. So this announcement goes live. We, we've spoken a lot about Alex Cooper. What are your initial thoughts?

[A]

Really, really liked it. Very impressed. I need to say up top. I'm a long standing fan of Alex Cooper. Yeah, I was an OG listener of Call Her Daddy. I have followed her career journey quite closely. I've listened to a lot of content that she's put out there, not only on her own channels, but also on other podcasts that she's been a guest on. I really like the direction she's going in because it feels really aligned with Alice Cooper's passion points.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when she went on Diary of a CEO, which I think was one of her most prolific interviews that she's done and was the most transparent and honest around not only the stuff that happened and breakdown between her ex co host on Call Her Daddy Sophia, but also around how she shows up as a businesswoman. And this is why I love Stephen Bartlett as an interviewer because he really gets interesting insight from the his guests and really takes the conversation to a place that as a listener you're like oh, my God. This is exactly what I wanted and what I've been missing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In that interview, she spoke a lot about how she is a creator at heart and being a producer and a director is basically in her blood. So her dad was actually a TV producer and she spoke a lot in the early days around how she was influenced by his experiences and going on set and, you know, seeing the production side of things. She also went on to study film and has been, you know, video production has been a huge part of her life. So I really liked this because I think this is coming back to that passion point for her and she's genuinely doing something that she loves and she's doing it for brands that are seriously, seriously impressive to land a multi year, multimillion dollar deal with Google. I'm like, go off queen. Yeah. What did you think, truthfully?

[B]

Oh, I was a little bit confused by it because Alex Cooper's name has been out and about for, I would say, a sustained period now. For me, I feel like I'm seeing unwell this, unwell that, unwell, unwell. I'm like, it feels a little bit like octopus tentacles. I don't really know what Unwell is anymore. It's like, it's production, it's talent, it's podcasts, it's events, it's content. It's a media agency, it's a production agency. I'm like, whoa, I'm confused who you are and what you're trying to achieve now. And I, I definitely respect her and I, I can't get that across enough. This is not to neg Alex Cooper. Much like you, I'm a fan. I think she is a very, very talented businesswoman and I think she's unseriously serious and you know how much I love those people. But I think for me, there tends to be a pattern of Alex's. I don't want to call it Quick Burn, but I'm leaning there of we get this like, ignition of loaded, loud announcements and then I don't see the sustain of what she's doing.

[A]

It feels like a flash in the pan.

[B]

Yes. So for me, I was like, Google is incredible as a brand partner. It adds a layer of legitimacy. If they can pull this off, fantastic. But for me, looking at Alex in singular fashion across the Unwell group, Unwell brand, if we want to call it that, is where is Alex's focus right now? Because I feel confused about where it is.

[A]

And that's really fair. And also one of the main reasons why we wanted to have this conversation today because as it stands, Brand Unwell, the umbrella, there are four different arms. So you've rattled these off. But I'm going to actually give you the breakdown of the four different arms that make up Brand Unwell. The Unwell Network, which is a creator and podcast network and that includes some expanded talent with some notable names leaving, coming and going, Alex O being the most prolific. Unwell Hydration, which is an electrolyte drink. Brand Unwell Productions, a TV production company. And now, as we've just discussed, Unwell creative agency and ad agency. So I totally hear you and I do think this is going to be a constant, I guess, challenge we'll come back to as this episode progresses is how did these individual arms of Unwell all thrive? There are a lot of them. And to your point, I want to ask the question, is this a matter of, and I use this phrase a lot, the Jack of all trades, the master of none, where potentially when you spread yourself too thin, you're not actually giving each of these arms the nurture and the love and the space to really grow and to be reach their full potential.

[B]

Yeah. And a lot of successful people that I've met, namely brand founders, the most solid piece of advice that they say is the hardest part is not saying yes to things, it's saying no and knowing when the right opportunity can come up at the wrong time. And knowing when to say no is often harder than saying yes to things. It's going, it could be right, but it's not for right now.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

And I do question whether Alex goes, oh, opportunity seems too good. I have to seize the moment. And maybe that is a symptom of Zeitgeist and the pace of social and you know, being of the moment now doesn't mean you will be of the moment in six months, six years. So, you know, maybe it's coming from that place, but it's an interesting one and I agree, it's feeling Jack of all trades.

[A]

It feels reminiscent of the social climate, how quickly trends are moving right now. So perhaps she's also trying to marry up with that because she does talk a lot about, particularly in a lot of the trade press, when she announced the creative agency is about tapping into Gen Z and the Zeitgeist. So perhaps it's also moving at the speed of light because that's how socially our platforms are moving and the trends that we're seeing on them.

[B]

Totally. It's a symptom of the climate that we're in.

[A]

I do really want to start with the creative agency, because it's the most recent addition. Mads, why do you think this works?

[B]

I think it works because it adds a legitimacy layer to her. Being able to pick up and prop up talent is one thing when she already has the platform, but to be able to prove that she can create cultural moments through ads and through content, I think adds that true layer of legitimacy. So for me, asides from the Unwell Production Network, which is producing and creating podcasts, I think this is the most legitimate move that she can make. I mean, also, we're talking about a partnership with Google, so it doesn't get more legit than that. I would say Google, Apple, Microsoft, probably your three biggest that she could have.

[A]

Partnered with huge budgets as well.

[B]

Huge budgets. And then I also think the agency creates a stepping stone for what I think she's trying to achieve. We've seen it a little bit with the Cannes Film Festival, her documentary that she's created, but I also think it feels like she's gunning to be creating these cultural moments. And I know we've spoken about this, but we are so convinced she wants to create super bowl ads.

[A]

Yeah, I had this in my predictions down the bottom, so I'm jumping ahead a little bit here. I had this in my predictions predictions at the bottom of the episode, but I'm just going to bring it up here now because you've made a really valid point and as you said, we're both very much aligned on this. I don't think Alex Cooper is driven by personal accolades. I think she's driven by industry accolades. And she cares a lot about legitimacy in the industry and her presence at Cannes. Her desire to be a producer and a director is for her to achieve these accolades in the industry. I wouldn't be surprised if down the track she does create a Super bowl ad for Google in this five year plan that is a really long time. Google also have an always on strategy when it comes to marketing and they really ramp it up around the super bowl and it would be so stupid for them to miss that opportunity. I also watched the ad that they launched their partnership with, which was promoting T Mobile, and Alex has already attracted some very notable talent. The look, the feel, it feels like content, not an ad. And I can just see them doing something spectacular for the Super Bowl. Also, I don't know if this is maybe a bit petty for me to say or a bit gossipy, but also the super bowl is in the space where Alex Earle plays. Her current boyfriend is an NFL player. She probably had. I Mean, when we discussed the super bowl in the is sexy back episode, Alex Earle had three or four ads running adjacent to the Super Bowl. So they won an actual super bowl ad. It just ran alongside. I feel like she's playing in that space. It would be a notable, notable move.

[B]

Yeah. And I think you're a bang on. I think she really wants to prove herself outside of being a personality or front facing talent and she wants to be taken really seriously in boardrooms. I don't think that's to say she might not end up putting herself in a Super bowl ad.

[A]

She's been in every app. She definitely cares about having a public profile 100% but I do feel her end goal is always to be seen as the industry leader and someone who is a serious force to be reckoned with.

[B]

In the wise words of Rhiannon Joyce, what would we say?

[A]

Two things can be true.

[B]

Okay, so when we talk challenges, what do you see as the challenges of her having this agency within the Unwell Group?

[A]

The first thing that came to mind for me, and maybe this is my advertising brain and working in partnerships category exclusivity. So this five year deal with Google has locked her in and what's great about that is when you have a long term partner, what that gives you is financial security. So you know that this revenue is guaranteed. In saying that the Google partnership makes up four to five different categories, it's cross category which means you know you're never going to see Alex Cooper holding an iPhone again. Yeah, you know, so we've got phone.

[B]

Unless she does a Britney and she's walking around with a Coca Cola while she's got a Pepsi partnership.

[A]

Guys, that is advertising susu like that.

[B]

It's like there's nothing. The most expensive Coca Cola anyone has ever drank was that one by Britney Spears.

[A]

Oh my God. That is honestly an advertiser, a marketer's worst nightmare when they're advocating and promoting a specific product and then they get papped or seen holding that direct competitor who probably has more market share in this instance. Apple I believe do in our market. I'm not sure about North America, but yeah, don't be surprised if you never see her with an Apple iPhone again. But also we're not even just talking about phones. We're talking software, we're talking AI. We're talking, you know, Google hit so many different categories she's really limiting the brands that she can work with. And I would argue that she would probably make more money if she cut that up and broke it down to each category in saying that what it would compromise is the authenticity of the partnership, the integration in the way that they're able to show how Google enhances Alex Cooper's life, but also her business. And using, you know, all of the editing tools, the capabilities that Google can offer in her workplace, I think adds a lot of value. So I think it's a challenge, but I also think it can be positioned to a consumer as a positive and make it feel more authentic.

[B]

1,000%. Do you think the challenge, though is obviously as businesses get bigger, their appetite for risk becomes a lot smaller.

[A]

Absolutely. Red tape, red tape. And as much as Google likes to say they're a cool brand, there are still board members and there are still shareholders that they have to appease. There may be an issue where there could be some conflicting values or some conflicting goals and that could actually inhibit the content.

[B]

Yeah. And if we take Alex Cooper as just an example, let's take Call her daddy. She had Kamala Harris on the podcast. Take your personal view of politics out of it. The reality is that the US Election was always going to come down to the wire. She made a play there that she was willing for 50% of her audience to potentially feel isolated by listening to that interview. Now you take that view for Google. Google will not take that pun that she did. Now, this is not subjective opinion. This is entirely objective opinion. Google, I don't believe, would be willing to take that kind of risk because Google can't afford to isolate a portion, a large portion of consumers, listeners, engagers, whatever you want to call them, because, you know, they're a large company, they're.

[A]

A big tech company. And as I said up top, they have to appease shareholders. They have a stock market that they have to look at every day, and that has a direct impact on it. So those type of blue chip brands, as you said, Mads, have less appetite for risk, but also have less appetite to really insert themselves into the culture, into the zeitgeist, which is really interesting because I would say that's a conflicting value with how Alex Cooper has positioned the unwell brand.

[B]

So would you say that the risk right now is that her vision or her values could potentially be diluted by this partnership for the agency arm of it?

[A]

Potentially. Yeah, I can see that being an issue down the track for sure.

[B]

Let's stay on the business story. As we mentioned, there are a lot of arms of Unwell. So I hope that all of our listeners like staying with us on this one. But Alex Cooper has a drink Brand Unwell Beverages. What are your thoughts? What's your hot take on Unwell Beverages?

[A]

My hot take is it's the 2025 version of vitamin Water.

[B]

Oh, good. Hot take. Yeah.

[A]

Do you remember I felt like Vitamin Water in the early 2000s was cemented in culture. The also shout out to whoever got that deal done with Gossip Girl. The amount of product placement by Vitamin.

[B]

Water had across all of those seasons.

[A]

It'S still in my brain. I will never Forget.

[B]

I think 50 Cent had something to do with Vitamin Water as well, which is so random. But when I think Vitamin Water, I actually think of Jennifer Aniston.

[A]

Right, okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Interesting you say that though, because my point on that is celebrities and people of influence love to play in the beverage category.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

It's big in alcohol, in non alcoholic, in. I would classify this as a almost like a wellness drink. The way it's positioned it, having the electrolytes element of it. Also, did you know that Unwell Beverages is the main sponsor of the American female soccer team?

[B]

I did know that because Alex Cooper used to play college soccer.

[A]

She did.

[B]

Told you I was a fan.

[A]

She's a fan. She's a fan.

[B]

Interesting take on Unwell Beverages. Kind of being reminiscent of Vitamin Water. For me, it felt like in current days this was a real like fuck you to prime, which is owned by Logan Paul.

[A]

Yes. And KSI, who is a British YouTuber.

[B]

And I feel like this is the feminine YTG fudge, that no way known girl version of it.

[A]

Fully the female antidote to Prime.

[B]

Thank you. That's the word I've been trying to spit out.

[A]

I'm so glad you went there and honestly, I did not think of that before you said it, but you are bang on. It's also the way it's branded is way cooler.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do think Unwell Beverages is branded and marketed really well. In saying that it feels the most left of field in the Unwell business for me. I see merch and I see product as a really great way to market your brand Unwell.

[B]

That is evident by the fact that you. Did you not come up with the concept for Shameless Merch?

[A]

I'm exposed. No, it's a really great way for your community to also be a marketing tool for you. Yeah.

[B]

It's a walking billboard.

[A]

A walking billboard. We love to say that. In saying that, I think it plays into the old Alex Cooper, like the OG look and feel of Call Her Daddy. I think it's very much serving that party girl work hard mindset. It Definitely feels like a nod to the old OG Call Her Daddy brand which is very much like party girl esque college girl vibes, bit more rogue I would say.

[B]

Yeah. And I love Call Her Daddy. Right. And I would say I'm an early adopter of Call Her Daddy. But actually when I deep dove on this I wasn't because I never listened to her when she was with her last co host.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the podcast started out quite provocatively. They super sexual talking sex. They were talking sex position sex tips like this was very much based in the concept of pleasuring a man, which feels very different to where she is now because it feels very like feminist and like pro female. So I agree this product kind of feels like a throwback to this like party girl. Not necessarily that party girl means provocative, but that party girl was like a little bit wild and fun. Like.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's definitely a nod back to it. I wouldn't say it's embracing that og, as you said, provocative nature of their content entirely. Interestingly, I jumped on the website and had a look at how they are positioning the brand in market and there is an element of this, but there's also an element of health and wellness, which for me makes sense because wellness is surging. It's become a very popular trend. It's a very buzzy word at the moment as well. So I'm just going to read you some of the website copy that they had.

[B]

Go on.

[A]

Unwell is a lifestyle. If you're sitting at work but you were out until 4am, you're unwell. If you're exhausted and have a million things to do but somehow made time for your workout today, you're unwell. And if you sent that risky text to land a second date, you're definitely unwell. So she's really trying to straddle these two worlds of you can be the party girl, but you can also show up and be the girl boss. You in the boardroom.

[B]

Can I challenge this?

[A]

Go for it.

[B]

Because I think I'm all three of those. I can absolutely drink champagne until 2am and I will give it a real red hot go and I will be violently hungover the next day. But I, you know, live by you play up, you show up like, I've still got to work on Sunday because I run my own business. Like I've still got shit to do. I don't resonate with this brand personally and sure I'm a sample size of 1, but you read all that copy and I'm like, tick, tick. Tick. But aside from showing up to work the next day when you're really hungover, like I'm not doing, I'm not out on a Wednesday, wild, you know, champagne night. But I don't resonate. It doesn't click with me.

[A]

Why do you think it's not clicking?

[B]

I don't think it's clicking because I don't actually believe this is Alex Cooper's lifestyle anymore. I don't resonate with it. I feel really passionately that she was trying to tap into what Alex Earl was. If Alex Earl launched this drink, I'd be like, yeah, she is a party girl. And then the brand would make sense because the product pipeline, I'd be like, fuck it, Launch alcohol. Launch alcohol and have electrolytes. Let those two things be true. You want to get absolutely wasted, we've got you. You want to recover the next day, we've got you. For me, when someone launches a brand, I'm always like, what's your three year pipeline? What's your five year pipeline? Who are you as a brand? What do you stand for? I look at this brand and I'm like, great, you're an electrolyte drink. I just have no idea where a five year pipeline would be.

[A]

I think you're absolutely bang on there. I also think when you look at the unwell beverages, social and when the content is pushed out online, it's really interesting to me because Alex is featured in a lot of it, but it looks really manufactured. I, it feels to me as a viewer, I'm like, you're pretending you're hungover. You're pretending you're way more fucked up than what you actually are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is maybe really unfair for me to say because she could be, she could be living this life and this, you know, two things can be true scenario. I just, I don't buy it. I'm with you. And I also think you're bang on about it being a way for her to capture Alex Earl's community.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's what's cool for Alex. Oh. And that's why people love her. They love that she can stay out and Bender till 5am and then show up the next day on a get ready with me looking super hungover, but then seem to go about her life.

[B]

And run multiple successful businesses 1000%. So for me, the unwell beverage part of her business is to me, the Roguest. What do you think?

[A]

Definitely the Roguest definitely feels, as we said. I can see the contextual alignment to being in the environment of you know, straddling these two worlds of partying, but also being a business person, I just don't feel that, as you said, it's authentic to her current lifestyle. I think it's reminiscent of maybe what she was like in her early college days. And it would feel more authentic to me if she actually honored that and acknowledged that in a lot of the copy and a lot of the content that they. She pushed out.

[B]

Yeah. Like I was once an Unwell girly.

[A]

Exactly. Okay, let's jump into another arm of the business. And to be honest, we're not going to spend a lot of time on this because there's actually not a lot there and not a lot known. But in 2023, Alex and her then fiance, now husband, Matt Kaplan, launched Trending, a media venture aimed at Gen Z. That is the broader, overarching company Unwell sits under. What do you know about this company, Mads?

[B]

All I know is that her husband was the producer of all the Boys to all the Boys I've loved on Netflix, which, you know what? I think that walked so that the Summer I Turned Pretty could run. This feels like the most untalked about element of Alex Cooper's brand portfolio, I should say.

[A]

I wonder if that's also intentional.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Because it is so corporate and so not unsexy. I don't think that's fair, but it feels like the least relevant to the consumer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In saying that, I do think down the line we're going to see more and more of this build out. Up until now, there hasn't really been a lot of movement under the TV production company. It has recently been announced that they are currently in production with Hulu to create their own reality TV show, which feels like, again, the right fit for the brand as a whole. From what we know, it's set on a luxury yacht and there are hot singles dating each other. So it's giving.

[B]

It's giving. Love Island.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Mates like Vanderpump rules below deck. Below deck.

[A]

Totally. Totally. But it will be interesting to see what other style of, I guess, TV and film they do.

[B]

Yeah. I feel it's safe to say that Alex Cooper doesn't mind a bit of low brow.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Trashy content or production.

[A]

Yeah, don't we all?

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, same.

[A]

I would say it's also super profitable for networks. Some of the most popular shows at the moment. I would say Love island is the most popular show in the world right now in reality tv.

[B]

Never watched a single episode.

[A]

Okay. So I go through waves yeah, both in Australia. The uk it blew up in the US over this recent summer. The US one, which historically hasn't been very good and just Bravo as a whole. We'll get into this later on when we talk about Alex Cooper's recent Unwell tour in Vegas. But she clearly loves reality tv. A lot of those guests at that show were part of the Bravo universe 1000%.

[B]

I mean, won't be at all surprised if these sexy singles on their luxury yacht are sipping Unwell the day after being super hungover. Like, she's not silly. She'll be integrating where she needs to.

[A]

That contextual placement will be there.

[B]

It's about that time when we start flipping through our wardrobes and deciding we need a flat full refresh before summer arrives. Thankfully, spring and summer styles have well and truly arrived at Chadston's 500 plus stores. But before you run off, do some Prep first. @chadston.com you'll find a stack of fashion and beauty articles spotlighting the trends that are shaping this season. Think effortless suiting, polka dots, preppy dressing, and the naughties, which is going for yet another lap. Thank you so much to Chadstone for making this episode of Stylish possible. So, Ray, we're going to get into the Unworld Podcast network, which I think I said earlier is where I think she has the most legitimacy because she has a formula that's clearly worked. Now, aside from our very own Michelle and Zara, you have been pretty instrumental in building out shameless media as a group. What are your thoughts on all of this? Like the floor is entirely yours here.

[A]

I think it's really important to start with what does the current podcast landscape look like and where networks are pulling talent from? My observation, both in the local markets are in Australia and internationally. It's really, really, really fucking rare for a podcast to launch without having a celebrity or a person of influence attached to it.

[B]

And why do you believe that networks or production houses are navigating to influencers or people of influence?

[A]

Because they're trying to acquire audiences. So what they're trying to do is tap into people who have existing audiences, existing following, and trying to bring them over to podcasts. Podcasts, you've got to remember, are still a relatively new medium compared to social media. It's less established. There are also still a lot of people out there that don't listen to podcasts. So from an audience acquisition player, there's huge of appetite there. It's also looking at honestly, for me, this is a personal opinion. It's also a little shortsighted because what they're trying to do is build out their offering and say, okay, we've got the podcast, but then we can also offer their social presence, their community, as an extension to the podcast instead of actually trying to build their own. So it's really. Sorry this is so pointed, but I'm just going for it. I'm going ham. It does feel shortsighted when networks try and prioritize acquiring someone else's audience. So an existing influencer's audience from another platform instead of actually investing in building their own creators in house or building their own communities. For me, there are two parts to this, right? Alex Cooper has a proven formula. She knows what works. She built Call Her Daddy from the ground up. She did not have a profile. She was the antidote to what I'm talking about right now. Sorry, she was the antithesis to what I'm talking about right now. Alex Cooper did not have a public profile when she first started Call Her Daddy under the Barstool Network. Their profile grew as their podcast grew up. Dave Portnoy basically plucked them out of obscurity. That, as I said, doesn't really happen nowadays. What's interesting to me with Alex Krupa is she hasn't gone about that the same way when she's launched new podcasts under her network. Alex had an existing community. Madeline Argy had an existing community. Harry Jowsey had an existing community. They had huge profiles, huge following. She's gone the opposite end. Maybe she was taking a page out of the larger networks books like Spotify.

[B]

Like who she was in partnership with for a number originally.

[A]

So when she launched for some period exclusive with Spotify. So perhaps there's been a bit of influence there, it did surprise me that she didn't go the path of trying to build talent up from. From the ground up and making their profile bigger using the same formula that she did with Call Where Daddy with the formula thing as well. I did clock this when I would watch Alex Earl's videos the way that she would. The language that she would use. And here's me again talking about language. She wouldn't refer to her current partner by his name, which is Braxton. She would refer to him as NFL man. Yeah, and that was a very, very common tactic in Call Her Daddy that they would do when they would talk about the guys that they were with. They wouldn't actually refer to them by their name. They would give them a pet name. And she does the same with Halloween Bachelor's Extra dirty podcast. I would say that is the most like call her daddy over. What Alex Earl's hot mess was in terms of the content, themes and what they're talking about.

[B]

Interesting analysis from you because I do also think there is just a them in girls group chats of single girls not really naming guys until they're like, yeah, being on a second or a third date. It's like, oh, you know, that's like firefighter or that's, you know, hinge man, or that's suit man.

[A]

Or, you know, I had one back in the day. We used to call him Converse because he would only wear Converse shoes.

[B]

I had one that was Shane shot for Shania because that don't impress me. But what I find really interesting about her acquisition of Alex Earl and look, we're gonna go there, we're gonna get a bit lowbrow about this is that firstly, I don't know that their personal branding was that far off. Alex Earl definitely felt like maybe the more unfiltered or more chaotic version of Alex Cooper, but also felt very reminiscent of early Alex Cooper. And there has been a lot of back and forth sledging. For those who don't know, Alex Earl kind of came. And as quickly as she came into the unwell network, it felt like she left. And it has felt like these very quiet, very clear NDA riddled. We don't talk about it, but we kind of like throw stones at each other.

[A]

The inference is that there was a falling out. When you're building a podcast network out and you're working with people who have pre existing communities and are really big like Alex Earl, who had millions of followers, the creative volatility is a real challenge when it comes to the podcast network that she has. It's also not just Alex Earl and Hot Mess, as you said, that show came, it still apparently exists, but Alex Earl has had to go underground basically and work out what that content offering looks like.

[B]

Okay, so as you mentioned, there's obviously been this rift. Yes, I know. You were talking to me about a week ago about a TikTok that you had seen.

[A]

Yeah, my algorithm constantly serves me any TikTok when it's about Alex Ell and Alex Cooper beefing. There was that one video where she was like, my co star told me to be messy today, so what should I be messy about? And someone commented in it saying, tell us what happened with Alex Cooper. And she wrote back and said, how much time do you have?

[B]

Which, I mean, pew pew shut down. Which coincidentally, and I'm Going to get my phone up for this. There was a very recent TikTok. And when I say recent, I mean, like, went live on Tuesday of this week. Alex Cooper has had live events in Vegas and I'm going to deepen this. She has had Unwell Vegas edition. And this is the live event, as we mentioned, with a lot of Bravo talent. Alex Cooper uploaded a TikTok with an array of all of the talent who were there lip syncing to Britney Spears Circus. She might be like, yeah, all good. Britney equals Vegas equals circus, whatever. But Circus was also Alex earls first dance song on Dancing with the Stars. And Alex Cooper captioned this TikTok. How much time do you have, question mark? Because we could go all night. Wink.

[A]

Oh, my God. Okay, so it's a full nod back to the OG TikTok that came out months ago. Okay. The Internet drama, the penis. I kind of love that no one's above this.

[B]

I love that no one's above this. And I also, like, I'm like, spill the tea.

[A]

I want to know so bad. Someone's going to do it eventually, I think, unless there are legal reasons as to why they can't. Someone is going to come out guns blazing. They have to. They have to tell us.

[B]

I would argue it can't be Alex Cooper. There's too much at stake. Alex, really. The next, like two to three years will be incredibly important for her because while she speaks so much to Gen Z and her ability to capture Zeitgeist and target Gen Z, what I find interesting in parallel to this is that Call Her Daddy to me definitely feels like it's aging with the millennial. Alex needs to have Gen Z creators. If that's what she. If that's her strategy to build a platform for them via podcast. She needs to go after that. Because if we look at Call Her Daddy and we look at a handful of guests that we've recently had with the likes of John Mayer with the likes of, you know, ex Gossip Girl stars. This is very much millennial targeted, which is an interesting juxtaposition to everything she's spoken about as kind of being the creator that resonates with Gen Z. I.

[A]

Totally get that with Call Her Daddy. I would argue, though some of the other podcasts in her network do target Gen Z. Madeline Argy, Gen Z, Hallie Bachelder, who is the host of Extra Dirty and a huge TikTok sensation, is Gen Z. What I think she's done well is build out the network where other podcasts target that Gen Z audience Do I think Alex Cooper is targeting a Gen Z audience as the individual and on Call Her Daddy? No. I agree with you. I think they're definitely owning that millennial audience. But one of the things that she can do to strengthen out the network and make the brand exist beyond her is to really build out that content offering with other podcasts who are tapping into that Gen Z audience. Also, just one more thing. Usually your listenership. When I look at the data for all of our podcasts, usually your listeners are two to three years younger than you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if your hosts are, let's say my age, 32. You're 30. Usually our average listener sits around that 28 mark.

[B]

Okay, interesting.

[A]

So for me, it's more of a perhaps big sister aspirational. I look to this person and I aspire to be like them. There's an element of that. That's not to say that there aren't listeners out there who are the same age as us or there are listeners who are perhaps a lot younger who are only listening to Jed Zed creators. Yeah, they are.

[B]

Shout out to my friend Elle's mom every week. Love you, Tina. Love.

[A]

So for me, if she wants the podcast network to really survive but also thrive, she needs to build out the podcast outside of Call Her Daddy and really go after that Gen Z audience.

[B]

With Those other podcasts 1000%. But also ensuring that those creators aren't just cannibalizing each other. We can't rob Peter to pay Paul.

[A]

No, you're so right.

[B]

Okay, so where to from here? Because obviously Alex is dipping her toe into a lot right now. What would your advice be if Alex Cooper just called Taylor up? Taylor is right in this instance and was like, I need some advice. What should I be focusing on?

[A]

I'm not. She's so much bigger and more successful than me, so I'm not really in the space of giving her advice. But in this hypothetical, I will. Coming back to the point about the Flash in the pan, these arms under Brand Unwell need to be built out. Yeah, some of them are giving Flash in the pan. I would say Unwell beverages does. I don't see the strategic long term play in how that serves Brand Unwell as a whole. I feel like it's probably the weakest. That's not to say it's not relevant at all. It feels like the one that Alex Cooper is least passionate about because I don't think it actually plays into her long term strategy of wanting industry accolades. Being a serious director, being a serious professional. It feels like, it actually takes away from that.

[B]

Interesting take, because I do think as she builds out these subsequent brands for other creators, that product does sometimes work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's take extra dirty. Start a martini brand, start a vodka brand. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? There are instances where it can work. We have seen beverage work very well for celebrity, or in the instance of Alex Earl having a stake in Poppy. Now, if Alex uses her ability to create product, and by product, I mean literal goods with creators, and she has a hearty stake in it, I think it can work. It's just not always tying herself to it.

[A]

It's not tying herself to it, but it's also, I would say, the riskiest, because the investment it takes and the hard cash you need to create product, it is super expensive. The other thing is the margins. You're really having to ride or die on suppliers getting a good product out there. There's just too many variables for me, and I feel like it's the highest risk one. I do appreciate the need and the desire to diversify your revenue streams. I think that absolute. Absolutely makes sense, particularly when you are a business that is built off a person, which Alex Cooper has built this business off herself. So diversifying her revenue is smart. Yeah, it is. Just out of all of them, the weakest for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you think's next?

[B]

For me, it's very similar advice. I think the golden rule of fewer, bigger, better is, you know, never more prevalent. And, you know, much like you said, I'm never going to sit here and act like I could give Alex Cooper any helpful advice because she's far more successful than me. But. But, you know, in this hypothetical, you know, fairyland that we're living in, in this instance, I would be saying build up, not out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't keep trying to diversify what you're doing works, but try and build up what you have. So the same way that she has this great captive Gen Z audience that she's building out with these new creators. Well, who else is there? What else is there? Great, you've got millennials in Gen Z, but who else wants to be acquired in a podcast network? Like, I'm so tired of sitting amongst C suites and in boardrooms where the conversation is around, we want to capture the next generation. We want to capture the next generation. I'm like, who's capturing the ones that exist right now because they want to buy things, they want to interact with product, with network, with consumerism, like, the same way that every other generation does Millennials still have money. Everyone's still like, I want to get Gen A, I want Gen Z. And I get that, that there is an opportunity to service those customers. But they are not the only customers. And I think for Alex, it would be beneficial to her to look at what she's doing and how she can speak to different audiences within what she's already got. Instead of being like, I do tv, I do movies, I do podcasts, I do talent management, I do product. It's a lot of things to be focusing on. And knowing where Alex Cooper's time sits feels like the most valuable thing to me as a consumer of the Alex Cooper umbrella right now.

[A]

I completely agree. Super keen for our Friday listeners to come to the DMs and tell us what they think. What part of the brand unwell do you feel like is the weakest? What's your take on? Also the Alex and the Alex Cooper dynamic. A little bit of low brow there for me, but that is all for our new fortnightly Friday episode of Stylish, focusing on brand marketing. Guys, thank you so much for joining us. And remember, you can drop us an email anytime at style-ishameless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at Stylish Pod. And we can't forget to thank the shameless media team, head of podcast Lucy Hunt and senior podcast producer Kate Emma Burke. We'll be back with you in a fortnight. See you guys then. Bye. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.

[B]

Hello everyone, it's Jamie Laing here. Now. Can I just grab you for just one second to tell you about my podcast, Great Company? It's out every Wednesday and I'm joined by someone I really admire for a great conversation. It's a space to share, to be inspired, to learn, to be moved, even laugh. There are so many things that I get from it and there are no gimmicks. It's just me, great guests and you. You are the most important person you the listener list and subscribe to Great Company with me, Jamie Lang. New episodes out every Wednesday. Wherever you get your podcasts.