The undetectable era of beauty

Summary

Style-ish Podcast Summary: Episode “The Undetectable Era of Beauty”

Hosted by Shameless Media

Episode Details:

• Title: The Undetectable Era of Beauty
• Release Date: November 5, 2024
• Description: Style-ish is the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business, and beauty. In this episode, the hosts delve into the evolving landscape of beauty standards, the shifting dynamics of the fashion market, and the implications of online shopping habits.

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1. The Undetectable Era of Beauty

Overview: The episode opens with a captivating discussion on the emerging trend in the beauty industry where cosmetic procedures become virtually undetectable. The hosts explore how celebrities like Christina Aguilera, Demi Moore, and Lindsay Lohan are embodying this trend by appearing as youthful as they did decades ago without obvious signs of cosmetic enhancements.

Key Points:

• Rewinding the Clock: The hosts observe that modern cosmetic procedures aim to make enhancements seamless, allowing celebrities to maintain their appearance discreetly over time.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [02:18]: "We're entering this era where we know they've had something, but we can't see a thing."

• Advancements in Cosmetic Technology: Discussion on bio stimulators like rejuran and profilo, which stimulate the skin’s collagen production without adding excessive volume.

  Annika Joshi Smith [04:46]: “It’s like a biohack, using your own skin to your advantage.”

• Transparency vs. Privacy: The hosts express mixed feelings about the lack of transparency in cosmetic procedures. While open discussions can demystify beauty standards, unsolicited assumptions about individuals' cosmetic choices can lead to unwarranted scrutiny.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [04:25]: “I feel so torn about it, because part of me wants that door slammed wide open.”

• Impact on Beauty Standards: Concerns are raised about the unrealistic expectations this trend could set, pressuring women to maintain youthful appearances indefinitely.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [06:53]: "I worry that people are going to try and freeze their face in a moment in time. I have no desire to look like 29-year-old me at 45."

Notable Quote:

Annika Joshi Smith [06:28]: “Are we now shifting into a maybe potentially more natural vibe?”

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2. The Disappearance of Middle Market Fashion

Overview: Shifting focus to the fashion industry, the hosts discuss a recent Marie Claire feature by Halle Le Savage that highlights the decline of middle-market fashion in America. The conversation contrasts American and Australian fashion markets, emphasizing how luxury and fast fashion have overshadowed mid-range brands in the U.S.

Key Points:

• Polarization of the Fashion Market: In the U.S., luxury brands and fast fashion dominate, leaving little space for mid-market brands that offer quality without the high price tag.

  Annika Joshi Smith [12:39]: “Middle market in Australia, you could probably put Henny Dish and Tony Bianco... that’s kind of how the fashion industry describes the middle market.”

• Australian Resilience: Contrary to the U.S., Australia maintains a robust middle market with brands like Tony Bianco, Cookie, Assembly, and Nude Lucy thriving by balancing quality and affordability.

  Annika Joshi Smith [13:26]: “We do middle market fashion really well here in Australia.”

• Retail Environment: The decline is partly attributed to the "department store death" in the U.S., where traditional mid-market retailers are struggling to compete with specialized luxury and fast fashion outlets.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [13:11]: “I think that's a symptom of the department store death.”

• Strategic Brand Positioning: Australian brands succeed internationally by maintaining a distinct lifestyle aesthetic and strategic partnerships, such as Tony Bianco’s collaboration with Revolve, which emphasizes accessible luxury.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [15:54]: “By consistently prioritizing our brand, we've delivered trend-driven, accessible products to resonate with our customers.”

Notable Quote:

Madison Sullivan Thorpe [16:29]: “We think that the middle market disappearance isn't going to affect us here in Australia. We think we do that quite well here.”

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3. Is Your Habit of Returning Clothes Problematic?

Overview: The podcast addresses the growing issue of return abuse in online shopping, specifically focusing on "bracketing"—a practice where consumers purchase multiple sizes of clothing with the intention of returning all but one. The hosts discuss its implications on businesses, sustainability, and consumer behavior.

Key Points:

• Understanding Bracketing: Defined as buying multiple sizes of a single item to determine the best fit, often leading to high return rates.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [19:08]: “If you've ever bought an item of clothing online in multiple sizes and you've bought all of those pieces, knowing that you'll return all but one size, you are doing something called bracketing.”

• Business and Environmental Impact: High return rates increase costs for retailers and contribute to environmental issues through increased emissions and waste from packaging.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [24:29]: “I just think you have to offer customers that option because it is going to help to drive sales.”

• Retailer Strategies: Companies like ASOS and Zara are implementing fees for frequent returners to mitigate the financial burden of high return rates.

  Madison Sullivan Thorpe [26:20]: “ASOS stated... you'll now only get free returns when you keep £15 or more of your order.”

• Cultural Influences: Trends like try-on hauls on social media platforms such as TikTok exacerbate bracketing by encouraging consumers to purchase more than they need for the sake of online content.

  Annika Joshi Smith [26:32]: “You're buying things that you wouldn't usually buy... social media purposes.”

Notable Quote:

Annika Joshi Smith [29:19]: “There are protections in place and I think we should all just try and shop more mindfully and responsibly.”

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4. Swap: Recommendations with a Twist

The hosts conclude the episode with the "swap" segment, where they share personal recommendations that have become staples in their lives.

Annika Joshi Smith’s Recommendations:

1. Surround Yourself with Great Advisors: Emphasizes the importance of having supportive advisors in both personal and professional arenas.

   Annika Joshi Smith [31:08]: “There is so much beauty and vulnerability in asking for help.”

2. Once You're in the Room, You're Equal to Everyone in It: Encourages confidence and self-assurance, especially in traditionally male-dominated settings.

   Annika Joshi Smith [31:28]: “Managing my own expectations and lowering my disappointment.”

Madison Sullivan Thorpe’s Recommendations:

1. Find a Pair of Jeans You Love: Advises investing in versatile jeans that work with different types of footwear to avoid awkward lengths.

   Madison Sullivan Thorpe [33:36]: “If you find a pair of jeans that you love, get two pairs... to avoid awkward lengths.”

2. Word of the Year for Resolutions: Suggests adopting a single word to embody for the year instead of making extensive New Year’s resolutions.

   Madison Sullivan Thorpe [34:47]: “My word of the year was brave. I've been really brave, saying yes and no as needed.”

3. Flow Nasal Spray: A beauty hack to keep the inside of your nose moist, preventing sickness during flights.

   Madison Sullivan Thorpe [35:39]: “Spray it up your nose and keep it moist to prevent sniffing in germs.”

4. Hair Tie Trick for Perfect Buns: Demonstrates a method to tie hair without causing bumps, ensuring a sleek bun.

   Madison Sullivan Thorpe [37:55]: “Fold the hair tie into a figure eight before wrapping it around the hair.”

Notable Quotes:

Annika Joshi Smith [31:31]: “No question is too silly.”

Madison Sullivan Thorpe [35:24]: “Throw a word instead of a spreadsheet for your New Year's resolution.”

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Conclusion

In this episode of Style-ish, the hosts provide insightful commentary on the current trends shaping the beauty and fashion industries. From the subtle advancements in cosmetic procedures to the challenges faced by mid-market fashion brands, and the consequences of return culture in online shopping, the discussion is both comprehensive and thought-provoking. The episode concludes with practical recommendations, enhancing its value for listeners seeking both industry insights and personal growth tips.

Notable Final Quote:

Annika Joshi Smith [33:06]: “I got that. I got the BDE and it's something as well.”

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Stay Connected: Listeners are encouraged to engage with the hosts via email at [e-mail] or through their social media channels on Stylish AU.

Transcript

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Foreign.

[Lucy Hunt]

This episode of Stylish is brought to you by Aspect Skincare. Approachable, cosmeceutical skincare with effortless results.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan Thorpe and my co hosts are Annika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming.

Hello.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Hi, guys.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

How are we? I feel like I always tell you.

I say that every week. We're all good. Let's just get into.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

We need like a new, like, tagline. Punchline.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I'm going to start something new. What is a word you would use to describe this week?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Ooh, full throttle.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, Nice.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I'm like, getting ready for new season. We've got new collections coming into the showroom. We've got all new furniture in flowers. It's looking fresh and I'm excited. She's pumped.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

You were quick to that.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I know.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Oh, I'm still trying to think of a word.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I'm like full turbo today.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, I wouldn't say full throttle for me, but definitely busy. I'm going to Sydney this week.

What are you doing in Sydney?

I've got an event on Thursday.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Nice.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, she's fancy.

She's book busy. Yeah. What would you say your word is?

Pale.

Okay.

Yeah, I've just done the everything shower last night. Not gonna slip up on quotes that we'll see viral videos made about being slippery like dolphins. But I am gonna get a spray tan this week.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Gorgeous.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

You know, SPF 50 every day. So I'm a very fair gal.

Yeah, me too.

Yeah. So I'm just feeling pale anyway. Not quite as exciting as Full throttle, but here we are.

I can also relate to the pale comment, though.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Sorry, I cannot.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

All right, today we're discussing how beauty is about to enter the undetectable era. The disappearance of middle market fashion. And then we're going to ask the question, is your habit of returning clothes problematic? Later, we're swapping some recommendations, but with a little twist.

All right, so today's first headline is, we're entering the undetectable era of beauty. Do either of you want to elaborate on this headline in relation to specifically Christina Aguilera and some other celebs that are going down this path of completely, like, almost rewinding the clock. We're seeing them look as they did 20 years ago, which is quite crazy, right?

Yeah, I mean, it's probably best summarized exactly as you've just said it. It's a rewind of the clock. And I think traditionally, and as the article alludes to, there's Been a lot of detectable work over the last 10, 15 years. And I think what we're seeing now is people not looking like they've had work, but looking like they did 20, 25 years ago. And Christina Aguilera's name's mentioned, but I think there's a lot of other people that come to mind. Like, for me, Demi Moore and Lindsay Lohan are two names. Very top of mind.

Yeah.

But I think we're entering this era where we know they've had something, but we can't see a thing.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Right. And I think that's what makes us interesting. Right. The beauty industry and celebrities has been around forever. That's not exactly newsworthy. But what makes this so interesting, it's like this feels kind of impossible. It's like you literally have stepped into a time war. And I'm seeing, like, circa 2002.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. Have they figured out time travel? A recent feature on Dazed explored the future of cosmetic surgery. And in that article, writer B. Beardsworth uses the example of Christine Aguilera and details how plastic surgeons have made videos explaining that she's likely undergone a range of undetectable procedures. I think we've all seen these kinds of videos on TikTok of different celebs being accused of having different things. And sometimes I look at these and I'm like, she was just 18 when you posted the before photo. She's now 35. Of course, her face is slimmed out. She's had natural volume loss. Like, what do you mean? She's not had buccal fat removal.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Totally.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Relax.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And sometimes it's like, she also figured out the art of makeup. Like, when I figured out how a contour, I was like, oh, my goodness, yes.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, snatched. But also, as women, our weight changes. And so there's a whole factor of things. I kind of have this mixed feeling towards it because part of me loves that we have discussions about what people are having done.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Because I think the thought of having these unrealistic beauty standards for largely young women on the Internet is really dangerous. But then I also think it's really dangerous to be putting two photos of a woman, both of the same woman, next to each other and critiquing and assuming what they've had done.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So I kind of like, I feel so torn about it, because part of me wants that door slammed wide open. So people are really transparent about what they've had and how they look, the way they look. And the other part of me is like, I don't really want to see A woman ridiculed or assumptions made about what she's done.

Yeah.

To her face based on her own desires.

Yeah.

And wants.

And I think this movement into this undetectable era is actually a little bit more of the cosmetic industry honing their craft. Like we saw that excess use of dermal fillers. Yeah. You know, just completely take over the industry for about 10 years. And I was saying probably as long as 18 months ago, filler is going to be out. It's going to be bio stimulators that are in which are injectable substances. You might have heard the word rejuran or profilo thrown around that are meant to stimulate your skin's own collagen. So they're not there to add volume, but they're there to kind of biohack, I guess. So you're using your own skin to your own advantage in a way. And also ingredients like exosomes which are topical, much like peptides, a little messenger molecules that improve cell communication. They can also improve age related concerns and hydration and collagen synthesis and all of these wonderful things that we all want do.

We think there is something quite concerning about this though, that people won't be able to detect the lengths or measures someone's gone to to look the way they do.

But I think it'll be like filler where there was a time when people didn't realize everyone was getting filler and Botox and then all of a sudden the door got blown wide open and then everyone was just talking about it. You know, there was a time where women didn't talk about getting Botox.

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I do think as well this does add that kind of layer of visibility and transparency to what women are doing now. And I think it's almost a little bit more in fashion to kind of talk about their honesty of what you're actually doing. Because people have been ridiculed and critiqued for so long and I don't know, could we argue that we're now seeing this kind of more natur shift, like as opposed to the fillers and that real plumped up or like frozen look. Are we now shifting into a maybe potentially a more natural vibe?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

I was talking to a girlfriend who was explaining what her injector had explained to her about there's two types of people when they're getting work. There's someone who wants to look ageless and there's someone who wants to look good for their age. And what I worry about this undetectable era is that people are going to Try and freeze their face in a moment in time. And I'm never gonna sit here and say that I won't try something because I probably will fully transparently.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I would love to look incredible as a 45 year old woman, but I will have lived a life. I've already lived a life. I do hope at 45 I look like a really great 45 year old. I have no desire to look like 29 year old me at 45. And I worry that this swing is creating an unrealistic expectation on women to look as great at 45, 50 as they did when they were 25, 30.

But I'd also say, like, celebs have always had the ability to look, in quotes, young because they've always had access to those kinds of treatments that perhaps the everyday person didn't at one point, you know, and Botox was really expensive back in the day. Only celebrities and really rich people were having Botox. So they're the only ones that could look 30 when they were 45. So I think it's just an extension of that, really. It's just that some things are not going to be accessible to the everyday person that are accessible to celebs. And maybe we'll see that filter down a little bit, but I think that's just always going to be there, to be honest.

Yeah. But I do think some of the names I mentioned earlier, Demi Moore, Lindsay Lohan, Christina Aguilera. Yeah, I do think this is like the furthest I've ever seen of someone.

I really want to know. I am really curious. I'm not gonna lie. I want to know exactly what they've done.

Dying to know. I'm like, name them. Yeah, I want to know every single procedure. Name them, please. One of you. It's funny too, what you were mentioning about, you know, people talking about it a lot now and they never used to. And part of me thinks it's women taking their power back and being like, stuff it. Yeah, I go and get baby Botox every six months or, yeah, I never liked my lips, so I went and got a little bit of filler or whatever. And I think it's so great that women share that. But I do worry. There's almost this transparency, affinity or affection that almost feels like we have to be so honest all the time. And I have a lot of girlfriends who share what they've had done. And I also have girlfriends who privately have shared but would die if anyone outside of one or two trusted confidants knew that. And I just think it's ultimately like, yeah, I don't know that these things help those people feel comfortable in ever saying they've had something done.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

When the celebrities aren't honest.

Yeah. I mean, maybe we'll see Christina Aguilera do a TikTok or something talking about it because she has kind of seen a little bit of a resurgence because everyone's talking about how she looks and she looks incredible. Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, she does.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I mean, she is flawless.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Good as she did when she was 25.

Really is like we've taken ourselves back to the dirty film clip.

Yeah, yeah.

Genuinely has.

A little better now.

Yes. Anyway, up next, we are exploring how American fashion lost its middle market. But first, let's hear a word from today's sponsor.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Foreign.

[Lucy Hunt]

Hey, listeners. Lucy here. How often have you felt intimidated by cosmeceutical skincare products? Well, today's sponsor is here to change all of that, making high performance skincare effortless and approachable. Of course, I'm talking about Aspect Skincare, an Australian owned brand combining cutting edge research with scientifically proven ingredients. Now, this brand is known for their serums, but if you hadn't had a chance to try their products just yet, then the limited edition luxe travel kit is the perfect, perfect place to start. The kit includes some hero products such as B17 and Thadostat9. While small in size, they deliver big results. To help you get started, Aspect are giving stylish listeners early access to the Black Friday sale with 15% off store wide. Simply use the promo code SHAMELESS15 at the checkout to access the sale ahead of everybody else. Thank you so much to Aspect Skincare for making this episode of Stylish Possible.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

A recent Marie Claire feature written by Halle Le Savage explores how American fashion has lost its middle ground. Luxury fashion and fast fashion are dominating the market. And consumers who want affordable labels that are a step up from fast fashion have been left with pretty limited options. And Halle writes, just like the middle class American shopper is getting squeezed out of home and car ownerships, fashion's middle class brands are losing closet share and space on store shelves. It's all to survive in a retail environment that's become as polarized as American politics. Fifth Avenue esque luxury dominates one end blink and it's here. Fast fashion rules the other. Do you feel like Australian fashion's different from American fashion with this kind of sentiment?

I mean, as someone who doesn't work in fashion, yeah, I think they're totally different. But Annika, maybe you have a different view on that.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It's honestly such a different landscape altogether. No, 100%. Like, you know how we kind of talk about the Paris end of Collins and it's all very much upper market, very much luxury brands, Very, very, kind of like creme de la creme in America, it's that, but on such a larger scale. So obviously the population, the economies, they're way bigger. There's so much more opportunity over in the us And I think it's really interesting because even with all the retailers that we deal with, there is such an appetite and desire for Australian brands because obviously once we convert our pricing, it is that bit sharper, but our designs, everything about. I think Australia in general, it reflects a different lifestyle, which you don't see in the us. It's such a saturated market of very much kind of, I kind of want to say blue collar fashion. Like you've got your gaps, you've got a lot of those kind of more name brands that have been around for ages and then obviously your high street brands like Zara, Cos, H and M that dominate. But then there, where is that middle ground, which is where you go to your department stores like Bloomingdale's, even your Macy's, that's kind of where you get that customer product from. But it's scarce and it's not like as much opportunity as what we have here.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. And I wonder if that's a symptom of the department store death.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Oh, for sure.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

That. That middle market brand has really suffered, particularly in the us because I think middle market in Australia, as we sit here and kind of define it and appreciate everyone's economic situation is very different. But middle market brands within Australia, you could probably put Henny Dish and Tony Bianco and for some people those are a splurge and for others that is their entry level price point. But that's kind of how the fashion industry describes the middle market.

Yeah. And I would say that you could, you know, speak to your group of friends and most people will have something from Tony Bianco or they'll have something from Cookie or Assembly or Nude Lucy, for example, in that. I just think we do middle market fashion really well in Australia. Yeah, I really do.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I couldn't agree more. And it's actually really interesting because I think with Australian brands, we are so proud to be Australian. We are so proud of our homegrown roots and being made in Australia, having incredible quality and really sharp pricing as well. So I think when we kind of go into a global platform, we stand out. And something I found actually really interesting on my last New York trip was a lot of the buyers just telling us it's so refreshing to look at Australian brands because we kind of have that quintessential lifestyle that we're always looking for and inspiring wider audiences. Which is why I'm so not surprised our brands are honestly dominating right now.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

But it's actually really interesting because talking to Americans about what their sweet spot is, I was quite surprised that it's $200 for a dress. It's dropped from what was historically like 350 for a dress. And so I think where we're seeing online players really step up. And even stores like Revol, who used to be more aspirational, they're now opting to buy in a lot of Australian brands like Lioness by Dylan.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I noticed that.

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

And that'd be kind of a bit cheaper for us here, being more affordable. But it's that different fashion trend look which you can't replicate overseas.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Totally.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And Tony Bianco is a really great success story within that kind of middle market. And I'm glad you mentioned Revolve because that's where they've really done well. We actually reached out to them because they told us they first started testing the American market back in 2015 and they launched their own US website in 2018 and as I mentioned, are now partnered with Revolve and I think that partnership started in 2020. We had some quotes from their directors that I wanted to read out because I think it perfectly illustrates the current climate. We never anticipated such huge growth in such a short time. The past two years in particular have moved at an incredible pace with no signs of slowing down. Strategic wholesale partnerships and influencer endorsements have expanded our reach and credibility. But it all goes back to our focus on brand. By consistently prioritizing our brand, we've delivered trend driven, accessible products to resonate with our customers, driving loyalty and supercharging our growth in the US market. Why Tony Bianco thinks it resonated with the American consumer. Our designs bridge the gap between mass and luxury, a divide that feels far wider in the US than Australia. We're delivering a premium feel without the luxury price tag. Our US customer in particular seeks everyday styles they can rely on day in and day out with the confidence that they'll last.

I mean, obviously we agree that this middle market disappearance isn't going to affect us here in Australia. We think we do that quite well here. But in the US do we feel like this is a flow on effect of COVID and then that subsequent economic crisis that we find ourselves in, like the rich are getting richer, the poorer are getting poorer and that gap is just widening. So the people that are really impacted by what's going on economically at the moment only able to access fast fashion because that's where their price point lies. Whereas the people that aren't really being impacted are still happy to shop luxury. And so there is that middle ground there that no one's really able to shop in.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Or doesn't want to shop in.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I definitely think now brands are becoming more in touch with their audiences. And I feel like for so long, Jo, there has been that kind of huge divide and now brands are looking at ways to capture that audience because that's a huge market share that is open for grabs. Like we're even seeing brands that I would say are a little bit more lux here, like age. They've now just started their age studio brand. We've got Camila and Mark doing cnm. So all these brands that were probably a little bit more luxe are now having an affordable option or a diffusion line. And it's strategic because it's like they're able to capitalize on those markets while ensuring they still have that other customer that can be a little bit more premium for their other brands. Which means as a brand, when you're looking at B2B partnerships, you can position your brand quite widely. Like in Australia, we are so loyal to our, I would say our B2B partnerships, like you can only stock to David Jones or ma, you can't stock to Bott. Whereas in the US you can stock to Neiman Marcus, Revolve, Saks, Bloomingdale's, Macy's. They honestly don't really care about placement. They'd rather have products being available.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I think why the middle market works so well here is because they've adapted that high end feel in the retail landscape. So we know post Covid, everyone kind of went back to bricks and mortar. They wanted to be in stores, they wanted to touch and feel. You look at Dish Cookeye, Henny retail stores, they are beautiful spaces and that is not a mistake that they have invested in the fit out. They are supposed to feel like high end luxury retailers and then you're pleasantly surprised. And I think even in Tony Bianco packaging, like it feels like a luxe shoebox.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Like when you buy a pair of Aquazzura shoes, it's not a mistake and I think that's why it's working in the US because even when you're ordering online, you know, Dish have the beautiful drawstring bags, or Tony Bianco have the beautiful box. It doesn't feel cheap.

Yeah. The only brand I could think of when I was looking at the notes for this episode that was, like, in middle market that was really popular in the US Was like, Aritzia. That's all I think of. That just kept popping into my mind. I'm like, what other brands are there? And my brain just kept going. Aritzia, Ritz. Yeah, yeah. Can you guys think of any other brands that are just booming that you constantly see us influencers maybe talking about or shopping from?

I want to say reformation, but honestly, after being on their website last week, their prices have really, like, ran away.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So I wouldn't call the middle market anymore. I'd say, like middle to upper tier.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I want to say we will. What that influencer brand.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Oh, yeah, I see.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I don't know what that is. Yeah, I see them popping up quite a bit on my feet, but honestly, who knows where my feed's at these days?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

All right, next we're talking about refund abuse, also known as bracketing, a practice many online shoppers Guilty. Are engaging in.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

This is such a new term to me. Bracketing.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Okay, so bracketing. You might not be aware of what that actually means. So if you've ever bought an item of clothing online in multiple sizes and you've bought all of those pieces, knowing that you'll return all but one size, you are doing something called bracketing, which I learned that term for the first time while we were prepping for this episode. In a Sydney Morning Herald article exploring how widespread this has become, fashion editor Melissa Singer describes bracketing as hedging behaviour employed by shoppers that is influenced by several factors, including free shipping and returns, inconsistent sizing and buyer's remorse. In that article, chief executive of the Iconic Jerry Karm says that he's working to reduce the company's return rate, which is currently at 30%. He says there's a sustainability angle that we really need to do something about. And you can also look at this from the perspective of just putting a business together. Returns is one of our biggest costs, he says, which, I mean, I'm not surprised to hear that coming from the Iconic, because I personally do a lot of bracketing, and now that I read the sustainability side, I'm like, oh, okay. I didn't even think about that. But I feel like this is just a given. If you are going to go into online retail. Right. Because that's how we would shop in a store. You would get multiple sizes off the rack, you would try them all on and you'd put one back. That's exactly how I treat online shopping, because that's how I do most of my clothes shopping.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Definitely. And I feel like with the iconic as well, like, they're obviously encouraging free returns, so they will to give that customer the best opportunity to shop their size, get the size right. But it does come at a cost. And I think obviously that cost, like you said, there's the sustainability side to it, but then there's also the cost of business, because what happens when goods come back and they're not in their original packaging or they're not in a saleable condition? What happens if something's happened to that garment, Someone's gone and worn it? I feel like there are some risks attached to it that can obviously impact business.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. I'm so guilty of this. And it is purely a symptom of being between sizes. You know, I'm going to say what size I am, that's actually no one's business. I'm in between two sizes. And so I work an office job. I don't really go shopping on the weekends. I like, loathe to go to a shopping center when everyone else has got the day off. So I shop online. I would say 98% of my wardrobe I've bought online and I'm between two sizes. So I buy two sizes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I've got the winter body and the summer body. You know when you're like, oh, I'm eating a few more salads.

And so you're their best customer because you're not bracketing at all. You're just keeping.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

You're keeping that south there.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I'm my accountant's worst nightmare.

But also something that's really important to address is that when you are online shopping most of the time and look, brands are getting a little bit better at this, most of the time you are seeing a size 8 model, even a 6.

Yeah.

So someone who is a size 12 is seeing that on somebody that does not reflect their body shape. They are then shopping that item they need to try it on. They might try on multiple sizes and go, actually, this doesn't work on my body shape. I thought it was going to and it doesn't. So I think that's just a reality of being an online business. And you have to offer customers that option because it is going to help to drive sales. If you are Charging for returns. Yeah. I think then you get into this dangerous territory of someone not purchasing that item because they're like, nah, I don't want to pay for the return.

It's a barrier to purchase.

Yeah. So then you impact the sale.

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It's so interesting because when we sit down with our retailers, including the iconic, a figure that we're always, like, drawing attention to is the return rate. Because that obviously impacts business as a whole. And it does look at from a lens of the customer didn't potentially like this product. Why didn't they like this product? And so we're really now trying to work with our buyers on ways to reduce that return rate. Because what kind of happens on our end as well is people look at it through a sense of, oh, my gosh, that was unappealing, or that was something I didn't want. I didn't like it at all. But in reality, there are certain things, like it was not true to size, or potentially the brand changed their size. Maybe it was something to do with the composition of the fabrication. So now we're actually working really closely with brands to upload as much copy and information as possible to kind of like reduce just that return. Right. And help consumers make a more informed decision.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Because I'm the same. Sometimes I'll shop my favorite online brands. I'm just like you, Mads. I'm so time poor. I do all my shopping online and I kind of get parcels and then they arrive and the brands change their size. Or I bought something that's been updated and it's a new fabric that has no stretch. And so there's so many kind of variables that you've got to be mindful of when you're shopping online as well.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So we've obviously got inconsistent sizing and we. If we kind of park that. There is also the environmental impact of returning things. And I mean, there's an environmental impact of receiving it in the first place. We've got greenhouse emissions to get it. And then when you're returning something, there's additional greenhouse emissions, we've got the wastage that is in the packaging, most of which can't be recycled. And as you touched on, Annika, if you know something needs to be repaired or it's in the wrong plastic satchel, within the satchel that is returned in. Yeah, you have to replace that. And so I think there is a lot of environmental damage that happens in that. And I'm not saying that to preach. I'm guilty of it too. But I think you know, it's something that we're probably not even considering. We're probably considering the cost to our wallet.

Yeah. 100. It's something that I honestly wouldn't give two thoughts to normally. So. Yeah, it is a good reminder of that.

Yeah. And I think that they say that that is one of the biggest environmental impacts to fashion is the return culture. I mean, 30. That shocked me from the iconic.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I thought it would be about 15.

It didn't shock to guess, really. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Didn't shock me either. And it's really dependent by category as well. I got the inside scoop and I.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Think there's one more return train of thought that we haven't even touched on, which is that we're in a cost of living crisis and a lot of retailers will have 14, 30 day return periods.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And I think what you bought on day one of the month and what you might be able to Afford on day 30 are two different things. And so I think there is also that that's going on as well. There's bracketing, buying things in two sizes and there's buying things with full intention to love it. And maybe you do, but also going higher. Yeah. Bills were higher or interest rates went up and life happens. Shit's expensive.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

One of my friends was saying the other day she was breastfeeding her newborn in the middle of the night. She was like, I just randomly ordered these two pairs of Ton Bianco shoes and I shouldn't have. I don't know why I did that. I just. The mindset that I was in, I did it. Then I woke up and I'm like, why did I do that? So there'd be a lot of people doing those, like overnight shifts of online shopping for sure while they're doing those kinds of things. But I used to be a huge ASOS shopper when online shopping first became popular, like 2011, 2012.

Yeah.

I would do an order like, I'm not even joking, every two weeks and I would have like a massive haul come, which I know is really bad, but they've actually now introduced a fee for frequent bracketers, like I used to do. In a message to affected customers, ASOS stated, as part of a small group of customers with a frequently high returns rate, you'll now only get free returns when you keep £15 or more of your order. If you keep less than £15 from your order, we'll deduct £3 95 from your refund.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Interesting.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I mean, I think that's fair. I just think that's the cost of business. Zara have started doing that here in Australia for their returns. Yeah, I think it's like a couple of dollars.

So do we think that's where things are going to go?

I think so.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I agree. And I feel like as well, there's so many other enablers, like the trend on TikTok, the try on hauls. Yeah, we are seeing so much of it, like, keep or return. That in itself, I feel like, is encouraging a lot of this behavior as well, because you're kind of buying things that you wouldn't usually buy. You might buy things that are like. I saw this one actually the other day of a girl and she was posting that she did a $2,000 shop at Zara, and then she was telling her husband and he was just looking at her, like, literally draw on the floor, like, are you actually for real? We do not need these dresses. And the thing she kind of showed, it was like a neon dress, a red dress, all these outfits she would never wear. And he was just like, are you taking the piss, like two grand at Zara? So I would appreciate why Zara would then want to kind of put a fee in there for that huge return. Because she sent back most. It was clearly for social media purposes.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. Okay. I can understand now, like, hearing it from your perspective as well. I obviously don't see it from the insider's perspective. I'm seeing it from the consumer perspective. So it's really interesting to see it from your lens too. But one thing that I do try and keep in mind with online shopping as well is something that I heard from Victoria Devine, who is the host of she's on the Money podcast and she says to leave 24 hours between your purchases. So if you're looking at something at very late at night and you're like, yes, that's exactly what I want to buy. Give it 24 hours and you're probably going to change your mind and not buy it. So if you do struggle with that, like, impulse purchase right before you go to bed or in the middle of the night when you're breastfeeding, keep that in mind.

I used to sleep shop and I wish that I was joking. I had quite a few parcels. I can tell you the two key ones that stick out. One was a Camilla and Mark skirt and the other was three Opi nail polishes, which was quite ironic because I get shellac and I bought three Opio nail polishes.

In your sleep.

No recollection of buying them.

Oh, my goodness, that's wild.

Yeah. Would like to preface not intoxicated either of those times.

Okay.

Diamond.

Interesting.

Yes. Nail polish? No. Wish it was the other way around.

Okay, so is the lesson here that we probably need to get better at not bracketing or are we just accepting that it's part of life?

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I think let's be more mindful. If we can be responsible shoppers, then obviously, like that would be the way to move forward. But like, there's obviously protections in place for businesses as well. Like the ACCC have the replace, repair or refund. So it's kind of something in the retail industry that we always abide to. And that's kind of like the customer service approach as well. I think just from being on the street shop floor as a retail girly growing up and getting those customers that will literally abuse you because they don't get what they want and they've got a clearly soiled item that they're trying to return, you get that kind of PTSD and the customer is always right attitude. But I think there are protections in place and I think we should all just try and shop more mindfully and responsibly. Says the girl that got drunk and went shopping. But, you know, I kept my purchases.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I think to add to it too, I think there is a level of accountability that needs to be on the retailers. And I love that you brought up up more detailed copy on the website. But I also think what's great is websites introducing this runs larger to size. What this is true to size.

That's always helpful.

The model is wearing this. I cannot stand shopping on a website where I have no idea how tall the model is, what size she's wearing. I have no context. I don't know if this woman's five foot six or six foot one. Like, yeah, I don't know where it's going to sit on me. And I think that's where certain retailers having different size models for the same look look, or having the copy of the composition or the level of stretch or how the size runs is really helpful and will stop that. And also just consistent size runs. Yes. Because I have got, you know, three pieces from one brand or one retailer where I can be across three different sizes and I'm like, make the math math.

That's one of the big problems here. Do either of you ever use that sizing plugin thing that you can find on some websites? Yes. And you put in your weight and your height and your gender, I think, and then it spits out what size you are. I Sometimes find that helpful. All right, that takes us to the swap, which I think everyone knows what the swap is by now. We just bring something handy along.

And I mean, the name really speaks for itself as well, doesn't it? Kind of does the Internet thing.

That needs an explanation. Annika, do you want to go first today? Because I think yours, from what I can see, is a little bit philosophical.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Mine is so philosophical. I went really deep, you guys. I know. I'm here to educate and inspire.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, today we're meant to be swapping in things that have been recommended to us, that have then become like mainstays in our lives. So I'd love to hear what you have to say.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Okay, well, my first one is to surround yourself with great advisors. And this can obviously be in business or it can just be in general. Like, we will get that. Go to girl who we can pick up the phone at any time and they'll always be there for you.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yes.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

But I think something I learned really early on when I started my business when I was 29, was just that there is so much beauty and vulnerability and asking for help, and it's so okay to do that. And now you'll be so surprised at how many people, like encourage that culture ask for help in the workplace as well. And I feel like being in a woman led and founded workplace, it's so important to kind of teach that to, like, my staff. So that's number one.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I absolutely agree with that. I always used to say to my team, there's no such thing as a stupid question.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Yeah, ask away. I'm here. I literally yap all day, as we all know.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

No, I can't imagine that.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

But there's so many things that I think we should just encourage each other and lift each other up and always ask. No question is too silly. The next one. Once you're in the room, you're equal to everyone in it. And I think this is one that I personally love because I think in my industry, it's fashion. We're not changing lives, but we are helping people and building businesses and doing so much with businesses. And a lot of the time we sit in boardrooms and in meetings and we're talking numbers. We're talking some real high level stuff. And often with a lot of men, especially overseas. Initially, when I started my career, I felt really like a big sense of imposter syndrome. Like, why am I here? Why do I deserve to be here? You kind of get rid of that mentality once you realize, like, why you do what you do and why you're passionate about what you do. That's really helped me to kind of overcome a lot of self doubt and just ensure that I'm always remaining true to myself and remembering why I do what I do. And then the last one is I'm really learning not to expect a lot from people because then I'm managing my own expectations and lowering my disappointment.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I like that one.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I told you I was going deep.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, you've gone really deep. I love it.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

It's honestly something that James and I talk about so often, and we're so often brought up to treat others how we would like to be treated. But then you of get that disappointment when people don't treat you the same way. It's in personal settings, it's in business settings. So now I kind of just stay true to me and do me all the time and it's really helped me get a little bit of big dick energy. Is it okay to say on air?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yes, absolutely.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I got that. I got the bde and it's something as well. I'm learning to be okay. If people, like, don't follow through or kind of let me down, that's cool. I'm okay with it. So kind of managing my own boundaries as well. She's dead deep.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah, I like it.

It's really dope.

Thank you. It felt like we just had a counseling session.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Oh, you're welcome, Mads.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

You've got ones that are not as deep.

I've got one that's pretty light, but maybe I'll throw in another one too. She says Annika gave three, so it only feels fair. Mine is about your jeans.

This is a fashion business and beauty podcast.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I know.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So best advice I've got was actually from a friend who's a stylist who said if you find a pair of jeans that you love, love, get two pairs of them and have a short pair and a tall pair in the sense that have a pair that you wear with your ballet flats, your sandals that you find like wearing a flat shoe with. Yeah. And then one that you can wear your stilettos with because otherwise you end up with this really awkward length either way. So you're either in the flat scuffing along the ground or you're in the hill with like a little bit of a happy. And no one needs to see that. That. So that's my on brand fashion one.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Okay.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

And my other is, look, it's November, right. And so we're nearing that time of the year where it's the silly season. But it's also the end of the year and we all come to coming up with New Year's resolutions. And I used to feel a lot of pressure around New Year's resolutions. And I would make crazy girl lists. Spoken a lot about spreadsheets and things like that. You better believe I had a spreadsheet for my New Year's resolutions every year. I used to track them on whether they were daily, weekly, monthly, or annual target. Yep, I love this. But this year, and I would argue 2024 has been my best year yet.

Oh, good.

It was just a word. It was a word of the year. And Zara and Michelle have both spoken about this, who obviously co founders of Shameless. But one of the girls that I work with also spoke to me about this. And it's just a word you want to embody for the year. And so I threw out all of my New Year's resolutions and my word of the year was brave. And I think I've been really brave this year.

You have.

Saying yes to a lot, saying no to a lot. And if it's not a resounding yes, it's an absolute no. So I think as you're heading towards the end of the year and maybe reflecting and thinking about what you want for next year, throw a word instead of a spreadsheet.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I'm doing it. I love that.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Guys, I didn't come with a philosophical one. I just wanted an actual product.

We'll just put you on the spot and ask you for one.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Can we have like 20 beauty products, please?

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

So I actually do have something that's loosely beauty. Maybe it's not. It's a nose spray.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

No, it was.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

We spoke about unsexy beauty hacks. Yeah.

So this is my. Another unsexy beauty hack. So I actually got this recommendation from a creator called Paige Carmichael and also Dr. Michelle Wong, who's lab muffin beauty science on Instagram. So this is a product that I have taken on every single trip I have been on since I found out about it. Because I swear this helps to prevent you getting sick on flights. So it's called the flow nasal spray. And get it at chemist warehouse. It's got ingredient called carrageenan in it which is red seaweed extract and it's also got saline in it. But what it does is you spray it up your nose and it keeps the inside of your nose moist.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Oh, sorry to use that.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Sorry.

I just felt all the shivers down my spine.

My apologies to everyone that I got excited with that word. Okay. So the idea around keeping the inside of your nose well lubricated is that it prevents bacteria and viruses and things from getting up into the nose. So a dry nose is the perfect environment for you getting sick. And sniffing in all these germs is the best way that I can put it.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Oh my God. Meds. I'm a hay fever sufferer, so I'm always dry.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

She's losing sillies. I'm so sorry.

I think it was the moist intolerant.

Sorry. Dr.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Going, I love this.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Well, I just have to tell everybody you need this nasal spray if you are going overseas, you're doing any kind of long haul travel. I don't usually get a super dry nose on internal flights. Yeah, but international flights. Absolutely. You can use it a few times during your flight. Every time I've used this, I've not gotten sick. Every other previous international flight I've ever been on, I've gotten a cold or flu or some kind of yucky sickness after I've been on the flight. And no one wants to ruin their holiday. So I suggest packing this in your carry on on spritzing a few little sprays up your nose and you'll be.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Right add to cut.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Yeah. I do also have another one as well. I can share. It's not philosophical either, but I have to share this hair tie trick that I learned from Katie Jane Hughes, which I've posted about on my Instagram before when I showed how to do my slick back hair. So the way to do it, and this is gonna be really hard to describe while you guys can't see it, but basically if you're trying to prevent bumps in your hair and when you go to tie it up, doing that full loop with your hand with the.

Hair will always screw it up.

Yes, exactly. You do this thing with your hair tie where you fold it into a figure eight and then fold it on top of itself so it's like two loops, right? And then you take that as your single hair tie and you wrap it once around the hair and you take one of those loops and you let the other one go. So you then only got one. So the other loop is holding the ponytail while you wrap the other one around instead of wrapping it around without anything holding it there. And that's why you get the bumps. You can see it on my Instagram. I'll share the video when this episode goes live. So you guys can see it. But very handy trick. It honestly changed my life as soon as I saw that and I was Like, I'm sticking to that for the rest of my life. And I have.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

That's amazing.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

I'm definitely going to steal that.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

I know. Now I'm conscious of how sleek my bun is.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

We can try it on you after.

Yeah.

Okay, so to summarize, we've got. You're allowed to be in the room. You're in Big Dick Energy. Get two pairs of your favorite jeans and fuck New Year's resolutions and just find a word of the year. And then flow nasal spray if you want to be moist and lubricated. And hair tie trick for the perfect slick back bun.

Yep, exactly.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Love that.

[Madison Sullivan Thorpe]

Right?

Perfectly summarized, Matt.

Actually wraps us up for this week's episode of Stylish. Thank you very much for joining us. And of course, thanks very much to you both for being here today. Annika Joshi Smith and Joanna Fleming.

Pleasure.

And remember, you can drop us an email anytime@style-ishameless media.com or you can slide into our DMS over at Stylish AU. And we can't forget to thank the wonderful Shameless media team, head of podcast, Lucy Hunt and our senior podcast producer, Kate Emma Burke. We'll be right back with you next Wednesday. See you then.

See ya. Bye.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri Land. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land.

[Zara McDonald]

Hey, guys, it's Zara here. Are you struggling this summer because all your favourite shows are on break? Fear not, because our recently launched interview show, Inherited is working right through the summer break. Yes, that means fresh interviews every single week. If you've not yet listened to an episode of Inherited, we are ask our guests for the recipes, rules, relics and rituals that have shaped who they are today. My favorite interview so far was with Mia Friedman because of how honest and, dare I say, unfiltered she was. Even though Mia hosts podcasts every single week, I feel like we absolutely saw a different side of her in this chat.

[Annika Joshi Smith]

Here's a little snippet.

[F]

It's a weird kind of grief. Pregnancy, loss. You're grieving the idea of someone you're grieving someone you've never met, someone you've got no memories of. And so what this box is full of is the ultrasound pictures that I had of her and some cards that people sent me with flowers after she died. What's hard is that you don't have any proof that she even existed.

[Zara McDonald]

Search Inherited on any of your favorite podcast apps and get listening. Your summer road trip is sorted.